#avr Logs
Feb 26 2017
#avr Calendar
12:17 AM daey_ is now known as daey
01:05 AM xentrac_ is now known as xentrac
08:16 AM Lambda_Aurigae: Jartza, http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2017/02/26/app-note-bh45f0031-earphone-jack-communication/
08:35 AM xentrac: heh, 2400 baud FSK at 625Hz and 1250Hz
08:37 AM xentrac: not compatible with V.22bis
08:43 AM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
08:45 AM polprog: `this might be a tupid question, but how do i define an array in C? char * s = ???
08:46 AM antto: how big?
08:46 AM Tom_L: an inch
08:46 AM polprog: small, fixed size
08:46 AM antto: uint8_t wub[inch];
08:47 AM polprog: thanks
08:47 AM polprog: this was a really dumb question. It's not c++, so i'm missing some learning here
08:47 AM antto: Tom_L you and your inches >:/
08:47 AM Lambda_Aurigae: it's the same in C or C++
08:47 AM Tom_L: they grow into feet so you can walk away
08:48 AM Tom_L: and yards you can walk across bare feet'd
08:48 AM specing: Lol
08:49 AM Lambda_Aurigae: and if you have 5 people from poland you can make a 10 foot pole to beat people with!
08:50 AM xentrac: true, but in C++ as often as not you'd vector<uint8_t> wub; instead
08:50 AM specing: And in Ada you'd do type t is array (0 to 19) of Char;
08:50 AM xentrac: that declares a type, not an object
08:51 AM specing: or use ada 2005 standard library for growers
08:51 AM antto: specing you and your ada >:/
08:51 AM specing: Ada is the best language
08:51 AM antto: you couldn't even make an array one inch big!
08:51 AM antto: boooo
08:51 AM specing: yes you could
08:52 AM specing: Ada supports units
08:52 AM specing: you can actually have values of inches
08:52 AM antto: you can too, in C++
08:52 AM xentrac: are you using Ada on AVRs, seriously? I'd be interested to see your code
08:52 AM specing: I mean you can do "Value : inch := 23 in;"
08:53 AM specing: not sure if you could do this in C++
08:53 AM xentrac: if you multiply two inch values together, do you get a square-inches value?
08:54 AM antto: specing http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/user_literal
08:54 AM specing: xentrac: not yet as I'm busy AF with other stuff. There is plenty of AVR Ada code out there to look at though (and cortex-m)
08:54 AM specing: xentrac: you can have overloaded * that returns a square inches type
08:54 AM Emil: Wait so. Damn I have been living in a lie
08:54 AM xentrac: Mark Yagnatinsky managed to get proper dimensional analysis to work in C++: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/anonymous/a3bed36d2000bd8c4d2e/raw/7c24b790902df0bffeb2afcc9519afa5e09d8879/units.cpp
08:55 AM Emil: I thought that to transfer 1bps you need a 1Hz of bandwidth
08:55 AM xentrac: specing: butthen you have to define an overloaded * for square inches to return cubic inches, and an overloaded / for cubic inches to return cubic inches per second?
08:55 AM specing: xentrac: I suppose so
08:56 AM Emil: That is if you send at 433MHz your transmission would be 1Hz wide
08:56 AM antto: xentrac btw, you can use C++ (to some degree) on avr
08:56 AM specing: antto: lol
08:56 AM antto: in case you didn't know ;P~
08:56 AM xentrac: can you even define an overloaded / for cubic inches that returns cubic inches per second or square inches depending on its argument type?
08:56 AM specing: Arduino is C++
08:56 AM Emil: But apparently you can send as many bits as you like at 1Hz bandwith
08:56 AM Lambda_Aurigae: antto, it's called arduino.
08:56 AM xentrac: antto: sure, obviously, that's how Arduino works ;)
08:56 AM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, it's...magic..
08:56 AM antto: dafuq is arduino
08:56 AM Emil: if only noise goes down
08:57 AM LeoNerd: Yah - I always find that quite odd
08:57 AM antto: who cares about that
08:57 AM xentrac: haha
08:57 AM LeoNerd: That you can get >1pbs out of 1Hz bandwidth
08:57 AM xentrac: emil: yep, if you have a low enough SNR
08:57 AM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, two channels in one direction...twice the data at half the speed...or something to that defect.
08:57 AM Emil: but thats ludicrous
08:57 AM Lambda_Aurigae: but, yeah, their numbers don't make sense.
08:58 AM Emil: we could send infinite bits at in a single frew
08:58 AM Emil: freq
08:58 AM xentrac: Emil: just because you never have that much SNR in the real world
08:58 AM xentrac: no, not a single frequency!
08:58 AM Lambda_Aurigae: 1Hz/1TBPS
08:58 AM xentrac: a single frequency would be zero bandwidth
08:59 AM Emil: xentrac: yes single freq
08:59 AM Emil: C=B*lb(1+SNR)
08:59 AM xentrac: nope, 1 Hz bandwidth isn't a single frequency — it's a bandwidth of 1Hz
08:59 AM xentrac: e.g. 432 Hz to 433 Hz
09:00 AM xentrac: there are an infinite number of different frequencies in that bandwidth
09:00 AM xentrac: that's how you can send an arbitrarily large amount of information in that bandwidth if your SNR is low enough
09:00 AM antto: infinite is uncountable
09:00 AM Emil: We can grow SNR faster than shrink B if we desire to compensate for lb
09:01 AM Emil: The limit can be made anything
09:01 AM xentrac: not in practice, no
09:01 AM Emil: xentrac: the theory is what Im inteested in stm
09:01 AM Emil: atm*
09:01 AM xentrac: (and maybe not even in theory, if we live in a Planck foam)
09:01 AM Lambda_Aurigae: but those aren't carrier frequencies for that chip...they are tones...two frequencies sent over audio...one freq for logic 1 and the other for logic 0.
09:01 AM Emil: because everything is quantized because quantum physics
09:02 AM xentrac: right, Shannon's limit doesn't take quantization into account explicitly
09:02 AM Emil: So the equation must only be an approximation that falls apart
09:02 AM Lambda_Aurigae: Einstein doesn't believe in quantum physics!
09:02 AM xentrac: although you can modelit as unavoidable noise
09:02 AM xentrac: but I think this is going a bit afield from AVRs :)
09:03 AM Lambda_Aurigae: xentrac, we just have to cool them to about 4Kelvin
09:03 AM xentrac: Bose-Einstein condensates are my favorite processor architecture
09:05 AM Emil: I just wanted to get this off my heart and here I know I wouldnt get that much ridicule ;)
09:05 AM xentrac: anyway, Emil, your error is thinking that sending at exactly 433MHz gives you 1Hz of bandwidth. It gives you 0Hz of bandwidth. For 1Hz of bandwidth you need, for example, 432.9999995 MHz to 433.0000005 MHz, and there are an infinite number of frequencies in between
09:05 AM Emil: xentrac: nah
09:05 AM Emil: like I said
09:06 AM Emil: the limit can be made into anything
09:06 AM xentrac: in theory you can transmit independent information on eachof those frequencies if noise is lowenough to tellthem apart
09:07 AM Emil: if C=B*lb(1+SNR) and we take B to 0 we can just replace SNR with a function of B to get any limit we desire
09:07 AM xentrac: yes, you can take a limit
09:07 AM Emil: indeed
09:08 AM xentrac: but that doesn't mean you can actually set B to 0
09:08 AM xentrac: just approach it arbitrarily closely
09:08 AM Emil: which results in having whatever bandwidth we want
09:08 AM xentrac: right
09:08 AM Emil: even infinite
09:08 AM xentrac: no
09:08 AM xentrac: any finite bandwidth
09:08 AM Emil: sorry capacity
09:08 AM xentrac: right, sorry
09:08 AM xentrac: any finite bit rate :)
09:09 AM Emil: But that's ludicrous
09:09 AM Emil: (or is it)
09:10 AM Emil: Its just that my world has been turned upside down and I understand morr
09:10 AM Emil: My inteligence level grew a bit
09:10 AM xentrac: you might try calculating, as an exercise, the power needed to transmit 1kbps over 1Hz in an environment with, say, a nanowatt of noise per kHz
09:11 AM xentrac: congratulations :)
09:11 AM Emil: Yeah I know that reality is different
09:11 AM xentrac: you very quickly get into numbers that exceed the power output of the sun
09:11 AM xentrac: Yeah, but it's important to understand *why* reality is different
09:11 AM Emil: hehe
09:12 AM Emil: Hmm, we can also hehe
09:13 AM Lambda_Aurigae: reality sucks.
09:13 AM Emil: We can take any percentage of our infinite bit rate and use it to lower noise to 0
09:13 AM Emil: We can dig under the noise floor as much as we want
09:14 AM Emil: But then it becomes a matter of computation which has limits and theory I agree with :D
09:14 AM xentrac: well, you can lower noise as close to 0 as you like
09:14 AM xentrac: but not all the way to 0
09:14 AM Emil: xentrac: we can take the limit
09:14 AM xentrac: the limit doesn't converge, as you pointed out
09:15 AM Emil: It does to whatever we want
09:16 AM xentrac: It doesn't converge to whatever we want; the SNR exceeds whatever we want
12:53 PM Jartza: Lambda_Aurigae: cool, thanks!
12:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: thought you would like it....not like that chip is anything really special as an AVR could likely do much the same thing...but
12:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: welcome
01:32 PM Emil: Well
01:32 PM Emil: I really wouldn'
01:32 PM Emil: t
01:32 PM Emil: and the result would be a lot worse
01:58 PM NoHitWonder: Emil i watched some of your youtube videos the other night
01:59 PM NoHitWonder: is that your home lab?
01:59 PM NoHitWonder: or some hack lab?
01:59 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: nah, its our student run electronics workshop
01:59 PM NoHitWonder: ok
01:59 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: elepaja.fi
02:00 PM Emil: It is located in a university building
02:01 PM Emil: You should set up you own, too : )
02:01 PM Emil: If you don't have one
02:01 PM Emil: Everyone else, too
02:02 PM Emil: If you don't have an electronics lab, set one up
02:02 PM Emil: And make it inclusive :)
02:02 PM polprog: i finished a proto of the maxim thermocouple thernometer. thanks for your help
02:02 PM polprog: everybody :)
02:04 PM Emil: Nice :)
02:04 PM polprog: ill be making a video tutorial on interfacing it
02:04 PM polprog: ill let you know :)
02:04 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: you can join our channel !sik-elepaja@IRCNet if you desire (though if you ever say you are from an amk, prepare for some hazing ;D)
02:05 PM polprog: in other news mike uploaded a video of some weird spectrometer science thingy
02:05 PM Emil: polprog: nice!
02:06 PM Emil: Videos are always nice : )
02:06 PM Emil: And make sure you keep it clear and dont assume much
02:06 PM polprog: i have one about some chineese arduino sensor
02:06 PM polprog: ill give you a linl, maybe you would give me some tips ;)
02:06 PM polprog: *link
02:07 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: we are quite active
02:07 PM Emil: polprog: sure :)
02:08 PM polprog: https://youtu.be/Rt1VUez3nTk
02:41 PM Jartza: Lambda_Aurigae: well okay, I was a bit excited about the link, but it seems to be just FSK at 2400bps
02:41 PM Jartza: -> boring :)
02:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Jartza, yeah..
02:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: like I said, something you can do with an AVR really.
02:47 PM Emil: polprog: looks nice!
02:50 PM Jartza: Lambda_Aurigae: I can do better with AVR :)
02:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Jartza, I'm sure.
02:54 PM polprog: im back
02:54 PM Emil: polprog: looks nice!
02:55 PM polprog: thanks ! :)
03:04 PM NoHitWonder: Emil : thanks for the invite. but i think i'm good right now.
03:04 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: np
03:15 PM Emil: polprog: have an intro music
03:21 PM Emil: polprog: heh, I see you prefer analog parts and control
03:21 PM Emil: I would have just written something to control and measure the thing through serial
03:23 PM Emil: Though it _quickly results in taking 10 hours :D
03:24 PM Emil: Case in point: https://emil.fi/jako/linkit/7seg
03:27 PM Emil: Äh, the code is on my laptop
03:27 PM Emil: Well I'll link it later
03:52 PM JanC is now known as Guest71593
03:52 PM JanC_ is now known as JanC
04:26 PM NoHitWonder: so, Emil, you are working at Halton?
04:36 PM Jartza: lol
04:36 PM Jartza: friend made a lunar lander game with octapentaveega + arduino
04:36 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hehe.
04:39 PM Jartza: unfortunately it seems his FB profile isn't public
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that's ok.
04:39 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have facebook blocked at my firewall anyhow.
04:41 PM Chillum: congrats
04:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: facebook and twitter both.
04:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I avoid them like the plague they are.
04:51 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: why so?
04:54 PM Emil: Jartza: link
04:54 PM Emil: oh you mean the game
04:54 PM Emil: nice
04:58 PM Jartza: Emil: it's not public, it seems
04:58 PM Jartza: octapentaveega is public :)
04:58 PM Jartza: https://github.com/rakettitiede/octapentaveega
04:58 PM Jartza: that's there
04:58 PM Emil: Jartza: but you could share it ;)
05:19 PM NoHitWonder: Emil: just wondering
05:20 PM NoHitWonder: if they have electronics jobs there
05:20 PM NoHitWonder: apparently they do
05:21 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: how'd you come across this btw?
05:21 PM Emil: But yeah I am
05:21 PM Emil: It's a part time job
05:21 PM NoHitWonder: your website
05:21 PM NoHitWonder: and CV
05:22 PM Emil: Good :D I did sign an NDA so I'm like "better fucking make sure there's nothing confidental anywhere OHSHITSOMEONEKNOWSWHEREYOUWORK" :DD
05:22 PM NoHitWonder: yeah :D
05:22 PM Emil: But if you know PLC they might be interested in you
05:24 PM polprog: Emil: could you recommend a low cost fpga starter kit?
05:24 PM polprog: i found some icr board for 20 quid
05:25 PM polprog: ice*
05:25 PM specing: icestick is good
05:25 PM polprog: but i hope there's cheaper stuff
05:25 PM specing: it has open toolchain
05:25 PM specing: FPGAs are expensive
05:26 PM polprog: 20 bucks... 80 pln. not much
05:26 PM polprog: a price of a good dinner
05:27 PM specing: good dinner is $5 here
05:27 PM specing: I mean lunch
05:27 PM Emil: polprog: ICE
05:27 PM Emil: Lemme show you a video
05:27 PM polprog: i dont exclude a cheapskate way of etching an eval board and just jtagging via something to it
05:28 PM specing: the fpga I worked with was a $100 chip
05:28 PM specing: it was YUUUUGEEEEE
05:28 PM polprog: specing: a really good dinner at a typical restaurant (4 ppl)
05:28 PM Emil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdLgLCIDSk0
05:28 PM Emil: I got foss orgasm from that video
05:28 PM specing: polprog: I have no friends so I eat alone...cheaper!
05:28 PM Lambda_Aurigae: friends are too expensive.
05:29 PM Emil: polprog: except don't get the smallest stick
05:29 PM Emil: get the biffeg one
05:30 PM polprog: that looks cool
05:30 PM polprog: what was its name again?
05:30 PM Emil: polprog: http://www.latticesemi.com/Products/DevelopmentBoardsAndKits/iCE40HX8KBreakoutBoard.aspx
05:30 PM Emil: But if you are just getting started with FPGA then the smallest USB stick is fine, too
05:30 PM Emil: imho
05:31 PM Emil: But if your hunger grows then that bigger one will feel niceer
05:31 PM Emil: And they are real fucking things so 20€ is good
05:31 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the icestick is not so good then?
05:31 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: icestick is fine
05:31 PM Emil: but they use the smaller memory size chips
05:31 PM Emil: But if you are fine with that then go with it
05:31 PM polprog: thanks, ill get one when i will have some excess money
05:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've wanted to get into fpga...still learning arm though.
05:32 PM Emil: (I'm just repeating what a way more experienced person (my senpai pretty much :3) told me)
05:32 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: one thing at a time :D
05:32 PM Emil: otherwise it just all falls apart
05:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah.
05:32 PM polprog: arms? that can be interesting too
05:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not liking arm though.
05:32 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: try NXP
05:32 PM Emil: I heard good things from them
05:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the setup and config just sucks.
05:32 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I have some stm32 chips.
05:32 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: that's the STM32 shills
05:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: got them cheap.
05:33 PM Emil: Yeah I have some blue pills and also two nucleos
05:33 PM polprog: i think humble avrs are enough for me. ive never run out of flashmem while coding
05:33 PM Emil: havenot done shit with them
05:33 PM polprog: yet
05:33 PM Emil: polprog: it's not about the flash
05:33 PM Emil: it's about having the PERF
05:33 PM polprog: perf?
05:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: when I have time and are feeling better I am gonna try the libopencm3
05:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: bluepill is what I got.
05:33 PM specing: senpai wtf
05:33 PM Lambda_Aurigae: polprog, I've run out of flash many times.
05:34 PM Lambda_Aurigae: specing, teacher/instructor.
05:34 PM Emil: polprog: performance
05:34 PM specing: oh mentor
05:34 PM polprog: what i love about avrs is that they work without any breakout wankery
05:34 PM Emil: specing: its a joke
05:34 PM polprog: not arduinos and stuff
05:34 PM Emil: hey
05:35 PM Emil: I can quote myself
05:35 PM polprog: just a couple of caps and vcc and gnd, good to go
05:35 PM Emil: In particular, most of "Arduino" is just avr-based devices with a serial bootloader and a (shitty) hardware abstraction layer (hal).
05:35 PM polprog: exactly
05:35 PM Emil: So if you are talking about hardware, don't diss the Arduinos!
05:35 PM NoHitWonder: arms dont need that much either, polprog
05:35 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I jumped from the atmega1284p to the pic32mx270f256b for a combo of more memory and more performance.
05:36 PM specing: You can even get a cortex-a that you can solder yourself!
05:36 PM polprog: NoHitWonder: thats great news! ill make my own board then
05:36 PM Emil: polprog: not hard at all
05:36 PM specing: and an ARM9 that is even easier
05:36 PM specing: they come in TQFP!
05:36 PM polprog: anything but not bga
05:36 PM specing: 1GHz chips
05:36 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: what's your arm setup?
05:36 PM polprog: 1 ghz... wow
05:36 PM Emil: specing: stop it :D
05:37 PM * polprog orders some arms
05:37 PM specing: Emil: stop what
05:37 PM NoHitWonder: my arm setup? i have few dev boards
05:37 PM Emil: specing: teasing people like that :D
05:37 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: toolchain
05:37 PM NoHitWonder: nucleos
05:37 PM NoHitWonder: i use truestudio
05:37 PM Emil: >ulos
05:38 PM Emil: We dont take kindly to your kind here :D
05:38 PM Emil: ;)
05:38 PM NoHitWonder: why? its eclipse and gcc
05:38 PM Emil: >eclipse
05:38 PM * Emil gags
05:39 PM NoHitWonder: what's wrong with eclipse?
05:40 PM NoHitWonder: ive used many ide's based on eclipse, never had any problems
05:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: eeewwww.
05:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: IDE!
05:40 PM polprog: i cant be bothered to write a makefile, everything eclipse can do i could do in emacs
05:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: IDE is for old harddrives.
05:43 PM polprog: anyways, im so proud i managed to learn and debig spi today
05:43 PM polprog: http://m.imgur.com/LauS3c6
05:43 PM Emil: polprog: now try i2c and die trying ;)
05:44 PM polprog: tbh i wanted, i have some i2c thingies somewhere
05:44 PM NoHitWonder: so what would you guys use with ARMs then?
05:44 PM NoHitWonder: if not IDE or eclipse
05:44 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: heh, as long as one keeps their choice of IDE use to themselves you can use whatever you want ;)
05:45 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: your favourite text/code editor and cli tools
05:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: makefile, text editor, command line tools.
05:45 PM Emil: eww, makefiles
05:45 PM polprog: buttetflies
05:45 PM NoHitWonder: and for debugging?
05:45 PM NoHitWonder: command line debugger?
05:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: for debugging I read code and figure out what I did wrong.
05:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or use the serial port or blinky lights.
05:45 PM Emil: Or print to serial port, or use gdb
05:45 PM specing: stop buying more ARMs
05:45 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just like I have for the last 30 years.
05:46 PM specing: buy the RISC-V devkit
05:46 PM Emil: specing: I can't help it :(
05:46 PM specing: 320 MHz 1.6DMIPS/MHz
05:46 PM specing: mcu
05:46 PM polprog: for debugging i used 8 leds as seen on the photo :)
05:46 PM Emil: specing: which of the kickstarters?
05:46 PM Emil: THe one that seems legimite but is doing poorly
05:46 PM Emil: or the one that's doing closed source but has a lot more support
05:47 PM specing: Emil: I only know of HiSilicon
05:47 PM polprog: how do you flash the program code to arms? JTAG?
05:47 PM Emil: polprog: depends on a multitude of factors
05:47 PM Emil: most have a rom section that contains a serial bootloader already
05:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: polprog, I have one board with an stlink built in and I have a separate stlink for the other two boards.
05:47 PM Emil: Like pretty much all STM32s
05:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: which can do debugging if I wished to do so.
05:48 PM polprog: Lambda_Aurigae: stlink is a progammer i guess?
05:48 PM Emil: yeah
05:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup.
05:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: made for stm32 chips...
05:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: mine does stm8 as well.
05:48 PM specing: Emil: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive1 this? Which is the other one?
05:48 PM Emil: it is stm specific
05:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: some of the cheaper ones don't.
05:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but nobody uses stm8 much anymore.
05:48 PM polprog: well, the stm topic looks hot. ill give it a try someday
05:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: just don't go to ##stm32 if you use anything open source.
05:49 PM Emil: specing: I don't remember sadly :/
05:49 PM polprog: thanks for the heads up :D
05:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: they will sniff it out...they don't like anything open source there.
05:49 PM Lambda_Aurigae: they want you to buy your tools.
05:49 PM Emil: That channel is shill central
05:49 PM Emil: >LOL GCC MOVE TO KEIL SCRUB
05:49 PM Emil: "Actual events
05:49 PM Emil: (maybe dramatised)"
05:50 PM polprog: so where to go eventually if i had to use some help?
05:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: try #arm
05:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: try google.com
05:50 PM Emil: polprog: depends on the type of help you need
05:50 PM antto: duckduckgo.com
05:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: google.com is where I get most of my information.
05:50 PM Emil: if it is code then ##stm32 is fine
05:50 PM Emil: if it is tools then ##stm32 is not fine
05:50 PM polprog: thanks very much
05:51 PM Emil: polprog: if you get a good cli toolchain running, please let us know
05:52 PM polprog: sure thing, i would have to buy an stm32 us a prog tho
05:52 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: but really, we are quite the proponents of foss software here
05:52 PM polprog: under linux obviously
05:52 PM Emil: software software
05:52 PM polprog: :)
05:52 PM Emil: polprog: obviously
05:53 PM NoHitWonder: isnt eclipse and gcc foss
05:53 PM polprog: it is i think
05:53 PM Emil: polprog: if you buy an stm you have "2" two viable ways: buy bluepills from ebay, they cost about 2-4€
05:53 PM polprog: gcc surely
05:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: eclipse is too.
05:53 PM NoHitWonder: why youre so against them then
05:53 PM Emil: Or buy directly from mouser/digikey/farnell a real and super nice one for 10€
05:53 PM Lambda_Aurigae: it just makes me cringe to use it.
05:53 PM polprog: its bloated
05:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I prefer kate or gedit or vi
05:54 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: ides, especiall eclipse is cancer
05:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: or, for that matter, mousepad.
05:54 PM NoHitWonder: says who
05:54 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: me and my experience
05:54 PM polprog: Emil: i guess i will buy bare chpis and make a breakout myself
05:54 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, I would call it more of a bacterial infection.
05:54 PM Emil: polprog: wouldn't recommend, really
05:54 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: hmm, quite right
05:54 PM Emil: or viral, even
05:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: naaa
05:55 PM polprog: Emil: so much hassle?
05:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we have antibiotics for bacterials.
05:55 PM NoHitWonder: so youre studying 3rd year Emil ? that's your experience?
05:55 PM NoHitWonder: that made you the expert?
05:55 PM Lambda_Aurigae: windows is more viral...it's like herpes..once it's in the system it's almost impossible to get out completely without killing the patient.
05:55 PM Emil: polprog: if your aim is to learn how to use a device, there's no point in doing the board yourself, really: the chinese _will_ do it cheaper
05:56 PM Emil: Once you know how to use the device and move to actual development, then of course you design your own board
05:56 PM polprog: but what if i want to use the device in a permanent solution?
05:56 PM polprog: oh this way
05:56 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: such negativity and salt
05:56 PM Emil: :D
05:56 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: hmm, it depends
05:56 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I did say almost.
05:57 PM Emil: I say it's a force multiplier towards loss
05:57 PM polprog: if i, 2 years ago boughy an arduino i would never have so much fun from building avrs into ready boards
05:57 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that shit does keep popping up over and over though...and you have to beat it down hard.
05:57 PM Emil: polprog: I speak from experience
05:57 PM Emil: polprog: I started with raw AVRs, too, and I'm fucking grateful for that <3
05:57 PM Emil: But since then I have gotten experience
05:57 PM polprog: ill try to get an eval board
05:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, why the ballsack?
05:58 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: hm?
05:58 PM polprog: thats a heart
05:58 PM * antto throws wuauserv.exe at Lambda_Aurigae
05:58 PM Lambda_Aurigae: your "<3" looks like a nutsack to me.
05:58 PM Emil: heh
05:58 PM polprog: rofl
05:58 PM Emil: Yeah It's a heart
05:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: guys around here have them hanging from the rear hitches of their trucks...some real from cattle, some fake.
05:59 PM Emil: polprog: anycase: no need to needlessly build a dev board but if you want then sure, go ahead
05:59 PM Emil: polprog: I'm jus saying that you know how to hardware, at least to some extend
05:59 PM polprog: i wll get an eval board and see for myself
05:59 PM antto: Lambda_Aurigae r u in australia?
05:59 PM Emil: But the arm is a whole new ballpark with coding
05:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: antto, huh?
05:59 PM Lambda_Aurigae: oh, no, I am not in australia.
06:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I've been there.
06:00 PM antto: who puts nutsacks on their trucks
06:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but I live in the USA...midwest area.
06:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: rednecks.
06:00 PM Emil: polprog: here's a secret: even the nucleos are so god damn cheap that it might be preferable to integrate a whole nucleo to a board design than lay it out yourself :D
06:00 PM Tom_L: damn rednecks
06:00 PM polprog: oh
06:00 PM Lambda_Aurigae: makes as much sense as the fucking harley riders putting those teeny twinkley bells on their bikes.
06:00 PM specing: Emil: indeed
06:01 PM specing: InternetOfNucleos
06:01 PM antto: InternetOfTesticles
06:01 PM Emil: polprog: you'll learn it yourself but I can tell it to you also: once you start to factor in the cost of your time, layout, assembly, design, development, testing, every single other thing
06:01 PM Emil: you suddenly start to realise why things cost
06:01 PM Emil: and start to wonder how fucking awesome economies of scale are
06:02 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and/or how cheaply chinese kids work.
06:02 PM Emil: yeah
06:02 PM Emil: But also
06:02 PM polprog: Emil: i did a couple of avr custom boards designed in kicad and its really resource consuming
06:02 PM Emil: never fucking ever buy serious devices from ebay :D
06:02 PM Emil: buy from a reputable distributer like farnell, digikey, mouser or arrow
06:02 PM polprog: chinesium electronics? no no no :D
06:02 PM Emil: polprog: its fun, too ;)
06:03 PM Emil: I personally have come to prefer mouser because I can actually fucking order from them :D Farnell is cool but you need a company account, digikey is just a mess and comes with vat because states and arrow's site sucks major ass
06:03 PM polprog: mouser digikey and farnell are a bit unreachable since their shipping fre is nearly half of my monthly budget
06:04 PM Emil: But god damn those AVRs are affordable from digikey <3
06:04 PM Emil: polprog: that's why you do pooling
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I go for digikey myself because they are like 8 hours from me and no special taxes or anything.
06:04 PM polprog: i stick with TME
06:04 PM Emil: oh yeah TME is also fine
06:04 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: well, you are stateside, soooo :D
06:04 PM Emil: We are yuroboiiis here
06:04 PM Emil: ;)
06:04 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I used to order from futurlec.com but the delay in shipping was horrid.
06:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: good prices but when it takes a month to get something,,,sometimes more,,,it's just annoying.
06:05 PM polprog: yeah, you can forget about the project in the meantime xD
06:05 PM Emil: polprog: if you order with 50€ (that's for Finland, dunno what it is for Poland) you get free shipping and if you stick to ordering from withing EU there are absolutely zero additional costs
06:05 PM Lambda_Aurigae: and they never did figure out what a pinM was...even though it was on their site..they sent me 5 different pin thingies and none of them fit the headers.
06:05 PM Emil: polprog: that was for Mouser
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I ended up ordering them from digikey and got them before futurlec sent me the second set of wtf.
06:06 PM Emil: polprog: and that's why you do pooling with your friends from an electronics club/association/whatever
06:06 PM Emil: :DD
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: friends?
06:06 PM polprog: i will se if mouser has better prices obviously they get my order
06:06 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: the futurelec magazine is nice
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I ain't got none f those.
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: not futurelec
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: wait..
06:06 PM Lambda_Aurigae: maybe.
06:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah, no
06:07 PM Emil: polprog: compare them all, mouser might have better mosfets but digikey absolute rocks major ass with their avrs
06:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: futurlec, not futurelec
06:07 PM Emil: Wait
06:07 PM Emil: those are different things
06:07 PM Emil: :D
06:07 PM Emil: apparently
06:07 PM polprog: digikey is off the list for shipping delays and fees to PL
06:07 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yeah.
06:07 PM polprog: more like farnell-mouser-tme
06:08 PM Emil: polprog: digikey usually comes within a week
06:08 PM Emil: Farnell comes the next day
06:08 PM Emil: mouser 2-3 days
06:08 PM Emil: to Finland
06:08 PM polprog: iirc mouser was the only shop with cherry mx switches
06:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: http://futurlec.com/Touch_Pad_Latching.shtml
06:08 PM Lambda_Aurigae: shiny!
06:08 PM polprog: apart from some mech keyboards shops
06:09 PM Emil: Farnell and farnells shipping times are fucking god tier, I tell you that
06:09 PM Emil: You order today before 16 and it is at your doorstep the next day at 12
06:09 PM polprog: i ordered my Pis from them
06:09 PM Emil: <3
06:09 PM Emil: Oh RS exists, too
06:09 PM Emil: We ordered a bunch of PIs from RS
06:09 PM polprog: i have to check their prices to PL cos that was in the UK
06:10 PM Emil: polprog: they have an yurop warehouse
06:10 PM Emil: In the netherlands iirc
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: http://futurlec.com/Touch_Pad.shtml
06:10 PM Lambda_Aurigae: also shiny!
06:10 PM polprog: close enough
06:10 PM specing: Emil> never fucking ever buy serious devices from ebay :D
06:10 PM specing: Emil: yeah, buy from AliExpress
06:11 PM polprog: farnell or rs have the NL warehouse
06:11 PM Emil: specing: hehe
06:11 PM Emil: polprog: mouser, too
06:11 PM Emil: and farnell definitely have a warehouse in yurop
06:11 PM polprog: aliexpress? citing mike: "if you want to get 5, buy 25 so they act as a protective packaging"
06:11 PM Emil: they have one in UK, too
06:12 PM specing: < Emil> polprog: mouser, too
06:12 PM NoHitWonder: Emil: for simple things like AVRs ide is not needed, but if youre doing some serious dev work with ARMs, ide is a must. you cant debug a RTOS based app from command line. that is from my experience.
06:12 PM Emil: (it's funny how big of a status Mike and Dave have acquired that we just refer to them like that :D)
06:12 PM Emil: NoHitWonder: sure you can
06:12 PM specing: Emil: you don't appreciate chinese free shipping until Mouser offers you $80 "UPS Super Saver" shipping on a $10 item
06:12 PM specing: and $150 fedex
06:13 PM Emil: specing: oh I mean, I fucking love how cheap and shippingfeeless china is
06:13 PM Emil: specing: but seriously, you know how those prices come to be
06:13 PM Emil: lack of quality control, picking scrabs from the "almost working" and so on
06:13 PM specing: Emil: some, some not
06:13 PM Emil: specing: and that's why you always buy in bulk ;)
06:14 PM specing: All my single items have arrived unscathed so far
06:14 PM Emil: specing: ... that's not what it means, mate :D
06:14 PM Emil: It might look okay
06:14 PM Emil: but it might not be okay
06:14 PM Lambda_Aurigae: never order anything from china with an atmega8 chip on it!
06:14 PM specing: sure, but for a hobbyist it sure beats $80 shipping fee
06:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: at least, the local hackerspace discovered that.
06:15 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: are those the ones that are really arms masquerading as AVRs?
06:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: counterfeit chips that ran at like half the speed and had almost no sram.
06:15 PM Lambda_Aurigae: might have been.
06:15 PM Emil: :D
06:15 PM Emil: specing: where the heck do you get 80$ shipping fee?
06:16 PM Emil: And what the heck do you order?
06:16 PM specing: Emil: on mouser, 2 years ago
06:16 PM Emil: Because it's free shipping on orders over 50€ :D
06:16 PM specing: Pomona clip probably
06:16 PM Emil: specing: well, did you select like the most expensive overnight shipping option? :D
06:16 PM specing: no
06:16 PM specing: in fact the $80 was the cheapest
06:16 PM Emil: I don't belive you
06:16 PM Emil: Wait lemme put that into image form
06:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok...I've proven myself wrong.
06:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: http://futurlec.com/Touch_Keypad.shtml
06:17 PM Emil: https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder443/500x/44849443.jpg
06:17 PM Lambda_Aurigae: stm8 is still in use.
06:17 PM specing: Emil: that is ok, I didn't believe my eyes either
06:17 PM Emil: polprog: but yeah, you are in the second grade of upper secondary, right, so set up a school club or a real association
06:17 PM Emil: or join an existing one
06:18 PM Emil: specing: that would indeed give me a very bad taste :D
06:19 PM specing: polprog: or just setup a home lab
06:20 PM specing: I'm disapointed in hackerspaces, really
06:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: specing, me too.
06:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: at least the ones around here.
06:20 PM Lambda_Aurigae: one is too stuck up and the other is too pricy and artsy fartsy.
06:20 PM specing: last week I mailed one because like maybe I should give them a try
06:20 PM specing: if they have a spot welder
06:20 PM specing: ...no response
06:21 PM specing: welp
06:21 PM specing: I guess I'll have to either buy a $200 spot welder or build one from $something
06:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I offered a truckload...literally, a pickup truck load...of computer parts, computers, copier parts, servos, power supplies, etc....
06:21 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the one at the college said they didn't work with used equipment but would take any arduinos or i5 or better computers.
06:21 PM specing: Lol
06:22 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the other one said they wouldn't know what to do with such things.
06:22 PM specing: beggars can't be choosers
06:22 PM Emil: specing: the point is to save money and have faster response times
06:22 PM specing: Emil: ?
06:22 PM specing: they could keep that Emil and offer a hobby shipping option that arrives in like 2 weeks
06:23 PM Emil: specing: he does have quite nice equipments already but it's about orders taking time or shipping being too big of a part of the order
06:23 PM specing: at least Farnell ships stuff for 5 euros to me (2-3 days)
06:23 PM Emil: specing: then of course he should choose farnell if he can :D
06:23 PM polprog: Emil: i may look into that topic
06:23 PM Emil: I can't
06:23 PM polprog: specing: i have a small lab
06:23 PM Emil: specing: farnell wants a fucking vat number
06:24 PM polprog: anyways. i have to get up for school in 6 hours so goodnight
06:24 PM polprog: mention me if you wanna tell me something
06:25 PM Emil: polprog: good night
06:25 PM specing: Emil: Lol
06:25 PM Emil: specing: hm?
06:26 PM specing: Emil: they didn't ask me for one
06:26 PM Emil: You mean the vat thing? Yeah its cancer
06:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: Emil, vat number? beer or wine?
06:26 PM Emil: specing: oh and they dont for states
06:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we don't have vat in the states.
06:26 PM specing: I'm in Europe Emil
06:26 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we make all ours in kegs!
06:26 PM Emil: specing: ah
06:26 PM Emil: specing: where?
06:26 PM specing: slovenistan
06:27 PM Emil: specing: anycase, it differs by country
06:27 PM Lambda_Aurigae: do sometimes have import duties though...depends on how they write up the shipping ticket.
06:27 PM specing: Emil: indeed it does, I'm blessed with $80 mouser shipping
06:27 PM specing: for example
06:29 PM Emil: specing: you can try to register here https://fi.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/UserRegistrationForm?new=Y
06:29 PM specing: Emil: why? I'm already registered
06:29 PM Emil: specing: you can see how they ask for vat
06:29 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: well, murica is fuckken crazy with the tax thing :D
06:30 PM Emil: But I'll have my own company soon
06:30 PM Emil: so I'll have my own vat number soon, too
06:30 PM Emil: and I can start to bill the innocent people here huehuehue
06:30 PM Emil: consulting starts at 70€/hour
06:30 PM specing: Emil: so maybe just register account elsewhere
06:30 PM Emil: specing: I tried
06:31 PM specing: like UK farnel
06:31 PM specing: and?
06:31 PM Emil: specing: they have thought of that :/
06:31 PM specing: What is the problem?
06:31 PM Emil: You can try, I couldn't get it working
06:32 PM specing: What is the problem?
06:32 PM Emil: Hmm
06:32 PM specing: < specing> Emil: why? I'm already registered
06:32 PM specing: :D
06:32 PM specing: ENOPROBLEMHERE
06:32 PM specing: In fact I have two accounts since I forgot the first one's password
06:33 PM specing: mailed support but still waiting for answer after two years :D
06:33 PM Emil: I should actually send them a message and ask if I could register without a vat number
06:33 PM Emil: Since I know some people have older accounts without vat numbers
06:33 PM Snert: just give them a fake one.
06:33 PM specing: < specing> What is the problem?
06:34 PM specing: Snert: that might be a problem if they don't charge him VAT as an end customer
06:34 PM Snert: have a problem....don't dream one up.
06:35 PM specing: We are still waiting for < specing> < specing> What is the problem?
06:35 PM Emil: Snert: :D
06:35 PM Emil: How about no
06:36 PM Emil: specing: what is the problem?
06:36 PM Emil: Like I have said
06:36 PM Emil: I cannot register without a vat number
06:36 PM specing: Why can't you register in the UK?
06:36 PM Emil: Because it doesn't work :D
06:36 PM specing: how so?
06:36 PM Emil: Because they have protections against that
06:36 PM specing: what kind
06:36 PM Emil: At least I couldn't figure it out
06:37 PM specing: have you tried UK VPN?
06:37 PM Emil: specing: you can try
06:37 PM Emil: specing: I couldn't get it working
06:37 PM specing: Why would I? I already have *two* accounts
06:37 PM Emil: ...
06:37 PM Emil: specing: can you not read? :D
06:37 PM specing: I can
06:37 PM specing: but
06:37 PM specing: you are the one with the problem, not me :D
06:37 PM Emil: Or I mean like, if English isn't your first language I guess I can understand
06:38 PM Emil: but it should be obvious by now :D
06:38 PM specing: that is correct, english (it is lowercase) is not the official language of Slovenistan
06:38 PM Emil: specing: no, languages are written in uppercase in English
06:38 PM specing: really?
06:38 PM Emil: yeah
06:38 PM Emil: it's lowercase in Finnish, too
06:39 PM Emil: suomen kieli - the Finnish language
06:39 PM Emil: suomi - Finnish
06:39 PM specing: slovenski jezik, slovenščina
06:40 PM Emil: what's the latter part?
06:40 PM specing: latter?
06:40 PM Emil: slovenscina
06:40 PM specing: jezik? == language
06:40 PM specing: Slovene
06:40 PM Lambda_Aurigae: bloody Brits are all about capitalization, doncha know.
06:40 PM Emil: yeahwhat does it mean?
06:40 PM specing: Lambda_Aurigae: damn rite
06:40 PM * specing *sips tea*
06:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: right
06:41 PM specing: Emil: nothing, it is the name of our language
06:41 PM Emil: specing: the Finnish language, Finland
06:41 PM Emil: suomi, Suomi
06:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: unless you are performing a "damning rite" on someone's soul.
06:41 PM Emil: suomi - Finnish
06:41 PM Emil: Suomi - Finland
06:41 PM Emil: Finland is beautiful :)
06:41 PM Emil: And so is Finnish
06:41 PM Lambda_Aurigae: is that the language where "ko" means "cow" ?
06:42 PM specing: slovenščina - Slovene, Slovenija - Slovenia
06:42 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: lehmä
06:42 PM Emil: specing: you might mean Slovenian
06:42 PM specing: Emil: Finland = endless flats and forrests as far as the eye can see
06:42 PM Emil: specing: hmm, quite righ
06:42 PM Emil: right*
06:42 PM Lambda_Aurigae: I used to use KO instead of OK and someone here called me on it and said it meant cow in their language...don't remember which one it was.
06:42 PM specing: I was there Emil
06:42 PM Emil: specing: :3
06:42 PM Emil: specing-kun noticed my country :3
06:42 PM specing: swimming in a frozen river in the middle of winter Emil
06:43 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: :D
06:43 PM Emil: specing: <3
06:43 PM Emil: specing: that's fucking awesome and you know it
06:43 PM Emil: And then you roll in the snow
06:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: specing, that just sounds like stupidity....but,,,I've done similar.
06:43 PM specing: no sauna though
06:43 PM Emil: and then you go into the sauna
06:43 PM Emil: specing: wtf no sauna
06:43 PM specing: and no snow rolling
06:43 PM specing: yeah
06:43 PM Emil: _ALWAYS_ sauna!
06:43 PM specing: my feelings exactly
06:43 PM Lambda_Aurigae: went swimming in the runoff from a glacier in the colorado mountains.
06:43 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: haha :D
06:43 PM specing: Its not stupidity
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: the water read out at 32F when we put the temp probe in it.
06:44 PM specing: Lambda_Aurigae: please
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: we were swimming literally 50 feet from a wall of ice.
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: so the thermometer might have been off...probably was..it was cheap.
06:44 PM Emil: Lambda_Aurigae: please adjust to SI units
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: but it was still flippin cold.
06:44 PM Lambda_Aurigae: ok, 0C
06:45 PM Emil: the water is around 1-2C on the surface and 4 pretty soon underneath
06:45 PM Emil: If it is really god damn cold
06:46 PM Lambda_Aurigae: water can be 0C....at that temperature it is a matter of energy transfer to convert between solid and liquid form...both forms can exist at the same temperature, just different energy states.
06:47 PM Emil: well, sure
06:47 PM Emil: but it often isn't
06:47 PM Lambda_Aurigae: true.
06:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: that's how we used to calibrate those radio shack electric thermometer kits back in the late 70s/early 80s.
06:48 PM Lambda_Aurigae: insulated cup of ice water....dunk probe.
06:49 PM Emil: yeah, that's a pretty good way
06:50 PM Emil: but you really need to be careful
06:50 PM Emil: I experimented a some with cooling beer (university course)
06:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: on the hot side we would get water to a roiling boil for 100C
06:50 PM Emil: and we found out that there actually exists quite drastic temperature gradients within water
06:50 PM Lambda_Aurigae: yup..that's why you stir it vigorously!
06:51 PM Emil: So even if some part of it is at one temperature, some other can be something totally different
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: hey, they were cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer kits.
06:51 PM Emil: which annoys me greatly because we are taught otherwise :/
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: probably accurate until they ran for 5 minutes.
06:51 PM Emil: Hoooo
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: convection, conduction, and radiation...
06:51 PM Emil: I can register through Estonia without providing a tax number
06:51 PM Emil: Let's see, let's see
06:51 PM Lambda_Aurigae: then just drive to estonia to pick up your stuff?
06:52 PM Emil: Nah, of course I order to Finland
06:52 PM Emil: they don't particularly care
06:52 PM Emil: I just need to register a god damn account with them first :D