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[05:31:02] <Emil> yids: use the zero percentage baud rates for uc to uc communications
[05:31:29] <Emil> Oh that was not the case
[05:31:30] <Emil> Well
[05:31:32] <Emil> Still
[05:31:42] <Emil> I would use 250k for mostly everything
[05:32:07] <Emil> ~all serial to usb chips accept it
[05:32:26] <Emil> I actually run most of my things at 1Mbaud
[05:49:57] <twnqx> i like 2M :P
[05:50:12] <twnqx> but generally speaking, i am with you
[11:24:43] <carabia> rue_house:
https://hackaday.io/project/2552-farmbot-open-source-cnc-farming please put in topic
[11:25:05] <carabia> _precision_ food farming. this is so next level.
[11:26:04] <carabia> and they have a _web application_ you can use to design (??) your farm. Will this thing build it for you too, free of charge?
[11:26:50] <carabia> oh wait, i guess he refers to that pathetic little box as the "farm"
[12:14:59] <Gerritjan> what is the standard chip to program now @ the moment?
[12:18:23] <specing> atmega1337
[12:19:03] <Gerritjan> oke and can i use a startard atmega8 developer board?
[12:21:11] <specing> no, it uses a different pinout
[12:21:55] <Gerritjan> oke im trying to find it on aliexpress the right developer board for it
[12:26:31] <Gerritjan> oke no atmega 1337
[12:26:59] <specing> Have you searched for tetraPAK?
[12:40:23] <carabia> :D
[12:41:02] <specing> :D
[12:41:10] <carabia> specing: good job, you have potential.
[12:41:49] <carabia> Gerritjan: it's attiny1337, it's a common mistake to mix the chip families.
[12:45:58] <Gerritjan> because i was looking for a atmega2560 chip size but i cant find any developer board on ali :S
[12:47:41] <carabia> the fuck for you need a chip that big running so slow
[12:47:46] <carabia> that's like, useless
[12:47:59] <carabia> also those 2560s are expensive as hell
[12:48:15] <Gerritjan> oke because i need a lot ow pwm`s
[12:48:53] <Gerritjan> ATXMEGA256A3B like this 1
[12:49:21] <Gerritjan> 64 pins but what for sort of Developer board do i need for that
[12:52:02] <specing> stm32? THey have a fuckton of everything on them
[12:53:05] <Gerritjan> no i need like 17 pwm port and im looking for a avr chip that can handle it
[12:55:18] <Tom_L> maybe xmega
[12:55:21] <carabia> 17?
[12:55:23] <carabia> don'
[12:55:30] <carabia> don't think the 2560 has 17 pwm channels
[12:55:38] <Gerritjan> 16
[12:55:45] <Gerritjan> 2560 is 16
[12:56:04] <carabia> well, clearly is not 17
[12:56:58] <Gerritjan> nope but got 17 servo`s and maybee later on 21
[12:57:29] <Tom_L> time to break them up into groups
[12:58:09] <Gerritjan> Tom_L: i did look @ the xMega but if i buy a chip i need a programmer for it and i cant find it
[12:58:30] <Tom_L> mine did xmega
[12:58:34] <Tom_L> the new atmel one does
[12:59:34] <Gerritjan> do you got a link?
[13:00:01] <Gerritjan> Tom_L: I mean a developer board
[13:00:45] <Tom_L> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/microchip-technology/ATATMEL-ICE/ATATMEL-ICE-ND/4753379
[13:01:22] <Tom_L> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/microchip-technology/ATATMEL-ICE-PCBA/ATATMEL-ICE-PCBA-ND/4753383
[13:01:25] <Tom_L> pcb only
[13:02:19] <Gerritjan> im looking for somthing like
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/LQFP44-TQFP44-Turn-DIP40-conversion-block-burn-bridge-test-special-AVR-with-ISP-interface/1482331368.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000013.3.AhFCQW&scm=1007.13339.33317.0&pvid=2cb22cb3-717d-4ce2-9ae3-0985285bc0f5&tpp=1
[13:05:46] <carabia> http://www.hotmcu.com/stm32f4discovery-evaluation-development-board-p-31.html?cPath=1_20
[13:05:51] <carabia> meh, weakling left
[13:06:32] <carabia> can't really find reasonable cm3 boards with > 16 pwm channels, so gotta go cm4
[13:08:20] <carabia> the whole board costs half as much as an atmel programmer, and this one has a programmer onboard with jtag/swd ocd
[13:18:56] <specing> I'm really disappointed at atmel for not making a cheapo debugger
[13:19:27] <specing> how come we can have ridiculously cheap debuggers included on devkits for cortex* but no such thing for AVR?
[13:19:50] <Tom_L> fail
[13:21:13] <specing> And I'm not expecting any improvements after the microchip takeover as those debuggers are even more expensive
[13:22:31] <carabia> specing: I think you could just use an "edbg" off an xplained board
[13:22:32] <Tom_L> gcc doesn't support microchip either does it?
[13:23:17] <specing> it doesen't do the original PIC as that memory architecture is just plain wtf
[13:23:28] <Tom_L> agreed
[13:23:48] <specing> and would probably require rewriting a nontrivial portion of gcc in order to support it
[13:23:54] <Tom_L> i had ccs c for that
[13:24:33] <carabia> or sdcc, but there's something called "pic30-gcc"
[13:24:47] <carabia> no idea of the architectures it supports...
[13:24:58] <specing> I used sdcc for some pics
[13:25:01] <specing> like a decade ago
[13:25:16] <specing> the whole environment was crap
[13:25:30] <specing> the compiler was crap, the programmer was crap, the chip itself was crap
[13:25:44] <specing> so I just switched to AVRs
[13:25:58] <Tom_L> same here
[13:26:04] <specing> programming AVRs was fine
[13:26:23] <specing> programmers were cheap and worked flawlessly 100% of the time
[13:26:34] <specing> the chips were good and fast
[13:26:43] <specing> but then as programs became longer
[13:26:53] rue_house changed topic of
#avr to: 8 bit atmel microcontrollers. suggest a hilight for the day to Rue_house. Todays hilight:
https://hackaday.io/project/2552-farmbot-open-source-cnc-farming
[13:27:01] <carabia> thanks!
[13:27:13] <specing> the lack of cheap debuggers meant that I often couldn't figure out what was wrong with my (C) programs
[13:27:30] <specing> and I had to rely on intuition and small incremental changes to get something working
[13:27:34] <rue_house> a) build the program up one proven part at a time
[13:27:45] <carabia> next up is toilet.io-open-sauce-javascript-cnc-shitting
[13:27:47] <rue_house> b) learn to debug with an led! (usually requries a scope)
[13:27:48] <specing> so I started looking at ARMs
[13:28:08] <specing> bought a pair of TI stellaris devkits
[13:28:28] <carabia> arm + 1
[13:28:32] <carabia> AND you can use GNAT!
[13:28:33] <specing> FYI two of these devkits with 4 massive cortex-M4F on boards were cheaper than a single PDIP40 PIC18F
[13:28:43] <specing> carabia: GNAT is also for AVR
[13:28:47] <carabia> who cares
[13:29:00] <specing> and I got a stm discovery
[13:29:13] <specing> but then I was out of highschool and into university
[13:29:16] <rue_house> if you write code properly, there isn't anything major to debug anyhow
[13:29:28] <carabia> it really depends on the complexity of the code
[13:29:32] <specing> and the CS department just happens to have a massive hardon for homeworks and projects
[13:29:33] <rue_house> if you try to just make a big pile of code and expect it to work, your gonna live a life of pain
[13:29:41] <specing> and not so much of a hardon for hardware stuff
[13:29:50] <carabia> border (edge, corner?) cases always get you
[13:29:52] <specing> so my time shortly dropped to zero
[13:30:06] <specing> and here we are now
[13:30:20] <specing> I only have a few hours of time here and there to troll on IRC
[13:30:56] <carabia> specing: nothing more you could ever ask for
[13:31:46] <specing> FYI Ada probably sucks too, I just haven't had the time to realize it
[13:31:52] <specing> everything sucks
[13:31:56] <specing> and I hate everyone
[13:32:01] <carabia> all software suck, really
[13:32:40] <carabia> people who write it for a living and call themselves "engineers" are just really fooling themselves
[13:33:14] <carabia> the higher up the abstraction tree you climb, the more you're fooling yourself. Until you reach the top occupied by javascript people
[13:33:20] <Tom_L> you're just jealous
[13:36:13] <carabia> haha
[13:38:00] <carabia> perhaps, it'd be nice to be paid for not having a clue of what you're doing
[13:38:35] <specing> i should have gotten an MBA instead
[13:39:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> slightly more useful than an NBA I suppose.
[13:39:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> at least with enough MBAs you can wallpaper your bathroom.
[13:44:41] <carabia> blacks gotta make a living too
[13:46:48] <rue_house> what do you actaully know when you get an arts degree?
[13:46:57] <rue_house> who shakesphere was? picasso?
[13:47:56] <specing> sometimes I ask myself what those with a CS degree are supposed to know
[13:48:35] <carabia> ^
[13:48:46] <rue_house> from what I'v seen, they understand a bunch of school-specific terms and how to code hello world in a really high level oop language
[13:49:07] <carabia> do they even know how to use the nodejs package manager??
[13:49:52] <rue_house> Tom_L, I'v created the sub-ultimate drill guage
[13:50:11] <rue_house> its got metric from 1mm to 10mm and standard imperial to 1/2"
[13:50:17] <rue_house> all sorted by size
[13:52:00] <rue_house> !! I forgot to drill a hole in the corner for hanging it!
[14:08:11] <rue_house> carabia, have you ever pet 2 cats at the same time?
[14:13:44] <_ami_> sabor:
http://lioncircuits.com/ <-- looks promising and affordable for sure!
[14:13:50] <_ami_> exciting times :D
[14:14:32] <twnqx> no enig, no money.
[14:14:38] <twnqx> hasl yuck
[14:15:21] <_ami_> twnqx: meh, talking to me?
[14:15:27] <twnqx> yes
[14:15:50] <twnqx> who would even claim "hasl for superior soldering"...
[14:17:08] <twnqx> i mean, superior to bare copper, sure...
[14:20:40] <Tom_L> rue_house, not enough holes just to use one of the gage holes?
[14:20:42] <_ami_> twnqx: well, don't judge by words .. umm.., i hv placed my first pcb orders from @lioncircuits.. i shall find out when i get the board. lets see.
[14:21:07] <Tom_L> who are lion? never heard of em
[14:21:33] <_ami_> Tom_L: its a startup company @india similar to oshpark
[14:21:40] <Tom_L> ahh
[14:21:49] <Tom_L> good quality?
[14:22:06] <twnqx> they say HASL finish, I say only use HASL if you have good reason to
[14:22:30] <_ami_> i hv placed a pcb board order from them just now. lets see.. will update abt the quality when i get them.
[14:22:40] <_ami_> it was super cheap for me. so that was okay!
[14:22:45] <Tom_L> i never cared for laen's purple boards either...
[14:23:47] <twnqx> silkscreen on both sides is a nice touch though
[14:24:08] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32U4_3.jpg
[14:24:17] <Tom_L> that was the first 'purple'
[14:24:29] <Tom_L> fugly
[14:24:41] <twnqx> yeah i wouldn't want to have to put those ICs on HASL finish :P
[14:25:02] <_ami_> Tom_L: not very nice looking boards :)
[14:25:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> Tom_L, needs to be a bright barney purple!
[14:26:20] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32u4_1.jpg
[14:26:24] <Tom_L> these are much prettier :D
[14:27:21] <_ami_> my board dimension is close to 7 sq cm. 2 layer breakout board with both smd and through hole components. and i paid 248/- INR (3.54$) which includes shipping too and i shall get them faster than any other manufacturer outside india
[14:28:13] <twnqx> those aren't even the same designs! you switched from the three pin crystals with integrated caps to an oscillator!
[14:28:48] <Tom_L> :)
[14:32:40] <Tom_L> is mitch still doing boards?
[14:33:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> Mitch,,,Hackvana?
[14:33:18] <Tom_L> yeah
[14:33:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> haven't seen him around here lately.
[14:33:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> his channel is still there.
[14:33:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> he is opped there.
[14:34:25] <Tom_L> i used goldphoenix before he got goni
[14:34:27] <Tom_L> goin
[14:35:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> I used dirtypcb a while back.
[14:35:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> ordered 10 boards on their super-cheapy mode
[14:35:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> got them in 3 weeks
[14:35:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> and 4 extra boards.
[14:35:40] <Tom_L> itead sent some back with fingerprints on the traces once
[14:36:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> the silkscreens on the dirtypcbs boards were slightly shifted but not too bad.
[14:37:05] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/scope/DSC_0002.JPG
[14:37:07] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: i was looking for local pcb manufacturer and thankfully i got lioncircuit.
[14:37:07] <Tom_L> 2m
[14:37:18] <Tom_L> had to cut the traces on those because of it
[14:37:23] <_ami_> and there delivery time is also less than 14 days which is very promising.
[14:37:41] <_ami_> i wonder why sabor use to place all his PCBs from seedstudio.
[14:38:31] <_ami_> Tom_L: hackvana did good morning today.. i hv seen his msg today that i remmeber
[14:39:29] <_ami_> did say*
[14:41:26] <carabia> rue_house: no, i despise cats. I think they're one of the most useless creatures of the Almighty.
[14:41:53] <carabia> if i had two cats (prefer kittens), i am sure I could multitask and cook both of them at the same time.
[14:41:58] <Tom_L> they keep the mouse population down
[14:42:12] <carabia> depends on the cat
[14:42:20] <carabia> some are ultra-useless and don't even do that
[14:43:23] <carabia> did i say creatures? i meant creations
[14:43:44] <carabia> crea-som'n-som'n
[14:50:16] <carabia> what's that book filled with hillbilly slang, is it huckleberry finn?
[14:50:22] <carabia> or tom sawyer? or both?
[17:11:03] <rue_house> if thats what you think about cats, I'd hate to hear what you think of dogs
[17:47:26] <ENHering> Hi.
[17:58:37] <carabia> i've got a dog, rue_house, i have no plans of cooking it
[17:58:50] <carabia> it serves a purpose, unlike the cat
[17:59:09] <ENHering> Do you cook cats?
[17:59:23] <carabia> if they were cheaper, perhaps
[18:00:05] <ENHering> I've got three purposeless cats. All females.
[18:00:12] <carabia> though, there's not a lot to eat in a cat. should probably feed them really fat before frying, but that's a waste of resources again
[18:00:50] <carabia> already fat-fed cattle seems like a cheaper alternative
[18:01:23] <ENHering> I'm a vegetarian. Is that bad?
[18:02:04] <carabia> if you ask me, i have never been interested in that field enough to conduct conclusive research on whether that's good or bad, so I'm tentative
[18:02:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> cat isn't real meat so you can eat them.
[18:03:04] <ENHering> It is a good try. Helps health, helps the planet, helps the future.
[18:03:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's what they make hotdogs out of.
[18:03:18] <carabia> ENHering: i'd have to study it.
[18:03:22] <ENHering> Cats are very smart. Like some humans.
[18:03:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's not saying much.
[18:03:33] <ENHering> carabia: visit PETA.org
[18:03:36] <carabia> ^ QED
[18:03:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> ENHering, people eating tasty animals
[18:03:47] <carabia> ENHering: PETA is the last organization I'd ever like to help
[18:03:56] <carabia> fucking hypocrites.
[18:04:09] <ENHering> why hypocrites?
[18:04:17] <ENHering> They are all vegetarians.
[18:04:47] <carabia> case in point: the (former?) head of PETA is all no-go for animal testing for drugs
[18:05:02] <ENHering> yep
[18:05:21] <carabia> except that she (I believe it was) suffers from a disease for which the drugs used are known to be tested on animals
[18:05:43] <carabia> so, this bitch justifies this as "well you know, it's okay in this case, I need my meds so I can help other animals!!"
[18:06:09] <carabia> if that's not a prime example of hypocrisy, then I don't know what
[18:06:10] <ENHering> that makes her a bitch, or her cause useless?
[18:06:35] <ENHering> There is a lot to learn from PETA. This is not the only thing.
[18:06:37] <carabia> well, because
[18:06:52] <carabia> people who advertise their ideologies should stick to them
[18:07:13] <carabia> this is why i'm against ideals and ideologies, because more often than not, you are unable to stick to them
[18:07:37] <ENHering> They do not sell ideology there.
[18:07:49] <ENHering> They protect animals from useless humans
[18:07:50] <carabia> this is what hypocrisy is, if you know you cannot live by your ideals (that you shout out loud), then stop expecting others would either.
[18:08:20] <carabia> a stance on anti-animal-testing is an ideology by definition
[18:08:30] <ENHering> Would you agree on testing a anti aging drug on your dog?
[18:08:57] <ENHering> Or a skin smoothing drug on your dog's eyes?
[18:09:03] <carabia> no, but then again dogs have been domesticated and bred for other purposes than aniaml testing
[18:09:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> I would agree on testing such things on most of the people I work with.
[18:09:18] <ENHering> dogs are used on animal testing
[18:09:28] <ENHering> I would also, Lambda_Aurigae
[18:09:53] <carabia> well, I really have no stance on that. So for my part, they can do all they want.
[18:09:58] <ENHering> This movie is very educative: Earthlings.
[18:10:04] <ENHering> You can find it on youtube.
[18:10:22] <ENHering> Nothing to do with PETA.
[18:10:37] <carabia> your analogy is still off, because I don't have a stance to begin with.
[18:11:02] <ENHering> Not many people I know have watched it to the end. Truth hurts.
[18:11:05] <carabia> I am not a string puppet of an organization telling people what and what not to do
[18:11:24] <carabia> (unless it's avrs, I do tell people not to use them, you know but that's different)
[18:11:33] <ENHering> I've been a vegetarian by option, since 7 years old. I can talk by myself.
[18:12:01] <ENHering> Watch that movie and you will be able to understand.
[18:12:09] <ENHering> Now, back to AVRs...
[18:12:24] <carabia> sure, but the point i'm making is philosophical in nature and not directly related to animals, testing, climate, or any real-world-tangible concept actually
[18:12:58] <ENHering> I do not like ideologies. But even that is one.
[18:13:23] <ENHering> MAybe I do not like myself. Is your self an ideology?
[18:13:57] <carabia> well, perhaps in a very distinctive sense, sure. But liking, is not following, and in turn neither of which are the same as "sharing" or imposing
[18:15:06] <ENHering> Nope. No one is imposing anything. There could be no way one could do that. Even here.
[18:15:33] <carabia> alright, imposing is quite a strong term for this. Not the best one, I admit, it's due to me not being native english speaker
[18:16:03] <ENHering> I'm working on a one led way to help me debugging my modules without inserting delays in the code. Not so easy task.
[18:16:21] <carabia> get the LA.
[18:16:45] <ENHering> carabia: Me neither. I'm a bad english communicator. What is your mother language? Let me guess: German?
[18:17:01] <carabia> ew. do not associate me with the germans
[18:17:15] <ENHering> LA will reach here in 2 months. I'll be two months older then.
[18:17:23] <ENHering> French, then, carabia.
[18:17:45] <carabia> the fagg... I mean the french? even more yuck, I am never to be associated with them, either
[18:18:51] <ENHering> Well. That puts you in the south of Europe, in the north, or in the east. You do not seem italian or spanish. Dutch?
[18:20:09] <carabia> the dutch, are another bunch of whiteflaggers much alike the French. the distinction is that hopefully soon enough, it'll flood
[18:20:49] <carabia> italianos and spaniards are otherwise alright but they cannot be trusted with anything.
[18:20:56] <ENHering> I have a lot to learn about Europe. I cannot find your place in the next guess. Swedish?
[18:21:09] <ENHering> Portuguese? No...
[18:21:24] <carabia> Portuguese, same as spain and italy. Do not trust under any circumstances!
[18:21:29] <carabia> portugal, even
[18:21:30] <ENHering> Turk.
[18:21:52] <carabia> the turks are the cesspool of so-called europe, along with a few other countries
[18:22:00] <ENHering> Polish?
[18:22:07] <carabia> refer to: turkey
[18:22:12] <ENHering> Ops...
[18:22:16] <ENHering> Austria?
[18:22:24] <ENHering> No...
[18:22:26] <carabia> Austria is great. Let's go there.
[18:22:45] <ENHering> Slovak?
[18:22:52] <carabia> sweden is much alike france also, except you'd be hard pressed to find a single straight male in there
[18:23:02] <carabia> wow, it's like i'm giving you a 101 of european ethnicities
[18:23:08] <ENHering> Sweden is nice. People are nice there.
[18:23:42] <carabia> degenerate monarcy. also: see britain
[18:23:48] <carabia> monarchy, even
[18:24:08] <ENHering> My module ignores the SPI messages from the other module. Why? Why?
[18:24:22] <carabia> we need a bit more to work on than that
[18:24:38] <ENHering> I know... Sorry.
[18:26:15] <carabia> I've been making slow progress over the past years to relocate out of europe. of the destination, i'm not quite certain yet
[18:27:30] <rue_house> carabia, ARE YOU FRENCH!?
[18:27:43] <ENHering> I'd like to relocate to Europe. Swiss is an option, as I have that citizenship too.
[18:27:51] <ENHering> Switzerland, sorry.
[18:27:54] <specing> carabia: turkey isn't in europe
[18:28:06] <rue_house> why dont you both swap identities?
[18:28:18] <rue_house> and get each other deported
[18:28:23] <ENHering> carabia does not like germans. He could be french. But he likes austria, which denies the last option.
[18:28:24] <rue_house> :) free shipping
[18:29:02] <ENHering> turkey is not europe? Sorry... I thought it was.
[18:29:13] <ENHering> But it is NATO, isn't it?
[18:29:24] <specing> yes
[18:29:29] <rue_house> the cnc is running
[18:29:31] <rue_house> :)
[18:29:38] <rue_house> less the spindle, I have to finish things for that
[18:29:39] <carabia> that's why I said "so-called" as turkey's really a corner cae
[18:29:41] <ENHering> Earthlings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms7yoerGaPU&list=PLv7whYPHSlwTVb06qz0XrrLikH40cGdhs
[18:29:42] <carabia> case, even
[18:29:49] <rue_house> carabia, french?
[18:29:56] <rue_house> dont think so, you dont have a french accent
[18:30:10] <carabia> already said i wasn't
[18:30:24] <specing> not liking germany while liking austria...wtf?
[18:30:34] <ENHering> I have a small CNC, rue_house:
http://gabuleu.blogspot.com.br With a laser fitted to make PCBs.
[18:30:40] <specing> they are practically the same thing, just different name
[18:30:42] <carabia> specing: yes
[18:31:00] <ENHering> specing: That made me confuse too.
[18:31:35] <specing> tbh I'm still wondering why austria is a separate country
[18:31:36] <ENHering> Norwegian!
[18:31:53] <carabia> mostly due to the powers-that-be in germany, which only reflects the stupidity of their citizens. partly due to history.
[18:32:03] <carabia> ENHering: no
[18:32:28] <ENHering> Latvia!
[18:32:31] <carabia> historically though, the reasons involve many other big european nations aswell, so you know.
[18:32:52] <ENHering> Luxembourg?
[18:33:04] <ENHering> Bruges is so nice...
[18:33:12] <carabia> luxembourg, no. I don't really have an opinion on that
[18:33:27] <ENHering> When you go to Bruges, take your camera.
[18:33:28] <carabia> latvia? Those poor bastards who are still suffering from their soviet hangover? no thanks
[18:33:44] <ENHering> www.cirqoid.com is from Latvia. Nice machine.
[18:34:31] <ENHering> Romania?
[18:34:35] <ENHering> Greece?
[18:34:43] <ENHering> Finland?
[18:34:56] <ENHering> Oh... Ireland explains a lot!
[18:35:20] <carabia> romania? no, i don't associate with the gypsies either!
[18:35:41] <carabia> greece is yet another example of where socialist-like laziness ends up in
[18:36:12] <carabia> and theen good ole germany and france will suck you dry out of anything that you've managed to accomplish
[18:36:27] <ENHering> Germany is not that bad.
[18:36:40] <carabia> germany, is fucked, will get fucked more, goodbye germany.
[18:36:50] <carabia> but hey, it's democracy. it's always correct.
[18:36:52] <ENHering> France is getting worse with their socialist policy of helping their colonists...
[18:37:18] <specing> carabia: just wait till the number of arabs reaches 6 million
[18:37:23] <carabia> that's why democracy is such a great concept: popular vote can never be wrong
[18:37:27] <specing> guess what time it will be!
[18:37:32] <specing> genocide!
[18:37:38] <ENHering> yep.
[18:37:42] <carabia> specing: yes, i am keenly waiting for it.
[18:37:49] <ENHering> We are very near WWIII
[18:38:01] <specing> I'm not, us slavs always get murdered when germans are pissed off entirely
[18:38:11] <carabia> ENHering: yeah, i am from finland
[18:38:41] <carabia> i figured it'd only be fair to admit it as we have gone to great lengths in figuring this out, ha
[18:38:59] <carabia> specing: we'll see.
[18:39:06] <ENHering> Finland? Finland is nice. Finnish people are very kind, and drink like hell.
[18:39:32] <ENHering> I've been to Helsinki.
[18:39:42] <specing> finland is flat AF
[18:39:45] <carabia> finnish people like to keep to themselves, which is one of the great qualities of finnish people. in that sense i'm not a very stereotypical finn
[18:39:49] <carabia> specing: that is is, yes
[18:39:50] <specing> trees, trees everywhere
[18:39:59] <specing> snow, snow everywhere
[18:40:03] <carabia> that's why we've got a bunch of paper factories
[18:40:18] <carabia> and winters of late, there's been more snow in god damn spain than here.
[18:40:26] <specing> too bad that global warming => europe gets cooler
[18:40:26] <carabia> ENHering: yeah, i live in helsinki
[18:40:31] <ENHering> Nice country.
[18:41:14] <ENHering> I had a friend in Stockholm called Eveliina Poyhonen. I wonder where she is now.
[18:41:22] <carabia> helsinki is getting fucked also, there are way more people moving in than out.
[18:41:52] <ENHering> You should follow trump's advices.
[18:42:01] <carabia> and as gov't is spending it's nicely collected tax-cash in all kinds of stupid fucking projects, they are not subsidizing building houses enough
[18:42:21] <carabia> which leads to this funny business of house pricing going up
[18:42:44] <carabia> finland is really a socialist-safe-haven, if you ask me.
[18:42:45] <ENHering> Funny. Yea.
[18:43:05] <ENHering> Keep it like this if you can, carabia
[18:43:13] <carabia> enterpreneuring here is a dead-on-arrival idea.
[18:43:30] <ENHering> You should see the prices of apartments in Rio de Janeiro, after the olympics...
[18:43:43] <carabia> hah.
[18:44:05] <carabia> you know, olympics remind me, could probably still get a nice summer condo off Sochi.
[18:44:16] <ENHering> Manhattan like prices. Namibia like security.
[18:45:12] <ENHering> Communication module calls, Sensor module crashes. So bad.
[18:45:14] <carabia> yeah, i watched this thing a while ago that was on copacabana, where it showed the beach is divided into these sections, and you should beware which part of the beach you venture to.
[18:45:51] <carabia> from a certain angle the slums, well, favelas draw a nice backdrop for the beach
[18:45:54] <ENHering> You can go anywhere on the beach. No so much on the city. In some places you justo cannot come out alive.
[18:46:05] <ENHering> just
[18:46:45] <ENHering> It is this drug use thing. People like drugs. They pay for drugs. Drug dealers use violence. People do not like violence, so they use more drugs.
[18:47:11] <carabia> i've been thinking of far-east asia as a possible destination
[18:47:25] <ENHering> Violent city this one. Violence makes people stressed, so they use drugs. Understand? :)
[18:47:35] <carabia> yeah
[18:48:03] <ENHering> I believe a space station would be fine for me. With occasional visits to the planet now and then.
[18:48:23] <carabia> but in kor/jp there's a definite language barrier, so it kind of rules it out. I couldn't be bothered.
[18:48:57] <ENHering> New Zealand seems a good option.
[18:49:07] <ENHering> Brazil is not.
[18:49:14] <ENHering> Maybe in a hundred years.
[18:49:24] <carabia> that would be one, but I guess it's outback apart from say, auckland and wellington?
[18:50:06] <ENHering> Know nothing about New Zealand's geography. Should learn. I only know the picures I've seen from there.
[18:50:21] <ENHering> pictures.
[18:50:23] <carabia> Auckland's the biggest city, in the scale of a ~million pop I think
[18:51:24] <carabia> but, pretty much been just saving cash. How the things are going here at this stage is still a mere annoyance and not a critical issue, so I haven't put too much thought on relocating.
[18:51:45] <ENHering> I want a big round farm. And a house in the middle. Neighbours far, far away.
[18:53:15] <ENHering> Neighbors here in the NE of Brazil like bad music and high volumes. I want to make large rock carrying drones, to be able to drop big rocks over noisy sound devices.
[18:53:34] <ENHering> I should go to hell for this.
[18:55:55] <carabia> i like the drones with hellfire missiles better
[18:56:10] <carabia> predator-somethingsomething
[18:56:42] <carabia> MQ-1 Predator, it seems
[18:59:15] <ENHering> That would be nice, but much more complicated to build.
[18:59:40] <ENHering> I made a 3m wing glider that is waiting to be tested.
[19:00:01] <carabia> Oh-bama liked them too. And you know, as we can learn from the western media, administration and population too, what obama likes is good.
[19:00:28] <ENHering> Yep. Obama is a cool guy. Trump too.
[19:00:29] <carabia> so good in fact, he probably deserves another nobel prize
[19:01:19] <ENHering> Bad is corruption in Brazil. All the rest is so much better.
[19:02:13] <carabia> i haven't flown my planes in ages. i've got a dozen or so lipo packs in the closet bulging up slowly.
[19:04:26] <ENHering> I do not have much flying experience. Just two model gliders in the past, and being a paraglider pilot for a few years. But I have this obsession for finishing this control system.
[19:05:00] <ENHering> And destroying neighborhood sound systems.
[19:05:43] <ENHering> I'd live happily in US, where police works as expected.
[19:06:03] <carabia> ha.
[19:06:34] <ENHering> Difference between police efficiency in US and here can be measured in dB.
[19:06:50] <carabia> i think i still have my dlg. perhaps it's in the garage. it's not big, 1200mm wingspan iirc
[19:08:12] <carabia> but the wing needs some fresh balsa and covering, my depth perception that day was quite off
[19:09:01] <ENHering> It happens. I have flown into a football goal when leaving a looping.
[19:09:18] <ENHering> no more wings after that.
[19:10:32] <carabia> well i wanted to gather a lot of speed with a steep dive into a flyby but seemingly there was a tree on the trajectory.
[19:10:58] <ENHering> I wonder if a multicopter can lift a klystron and a power source...
[19:11:31] <ENHering> Trees move very fast into airplane trajectories. Bad plants.
[19:11:55] <carabia> i still prefer hellfires to klystrons.
[19:12:03] <ENHering> Maybe I could make the drone drop the klystron over the neighbours device.
[19:12:36] <ENHering> The challenge is to tune the PID fast enough after dropping the load.
[19:13:19] <carabia> doesn't seem like that big of an issue if the thing's balanced
[19:13:25] <carabia> it would just shoot upwards
[19:13:39] <ENHering> That is what I would like to avoid.
[19:13:48] <carabia> no harm no foul
[19:13:55] <ENHering> no. really not.
[19:14:44] <ENHering> That motivates me to solve the communication problem faster now. Dropping klystrons would make people below very, very curious.
[19:17:12] <carabia> ##elsewhere, there was a local guy who was building models to smuggle drugs over the border
[19:17:30] <ENHering> I guess a big rock would also. With the inscription "Jesus wants you to make silence"
[19:17:35] <carabia> i am not sure was the plan successful or not
[19:19:02] <ENHering> Probably was successful.
[19:19:59] <carabia> hmmm
[19:20:21] <ENHering> I have the solution to stop drug dealing. Bombard the plants with radionuclides.
[19:21:19] <ENHering> Drug users would glow in the dark.
[19:21:27] <carabia> haha
[19:24:26] <carabia> you could probably pack something like 10 kg of ANNM cheaply on a 4t plane
[19:24:32] <carabia> all of which are readily available
[19:25:04] <ENHering> What is that?
[19:25:23] <ENHering> ANNM?
[19:26:13] <carabia> fertilizer bombs, annonium nitrate + nitromethane
[19:26:21] <ENHering> Ah.
[19:26:33] <carabia> or ANFO, with fuel oil instead of nitromethane
[19:28:26] <ENHering> I heard about those things. Never tried. I like my fingers. They are still useful.
[19:28:36] <carabia> when talking building on the cheap, you'd probably end up with a lot of wing load which would greatly hurt your accuracy
[19:29:09] <carabia> if you'd use stock planes off the shelf
[19:29:16] <carabia> large wingspans cost you $$ :(
[19:29:19] <ENHering> You can compensate with higher speeds, longer distances and small Ps on PIDs
[19:29:50] <carabia> higher speeds would hurt your accuracy, too
[19:29:59] <carabia> and no this wasn't for automated flight
[19:30:38] <carabia> though you could, would eliminate the need for a telemetry link
[19:31:31] <ENHering> I wondered some time ago if I could modify the CNC to cut long blocks of styrofoam with a laser. By putting the blocks below the CNC and cutting a wingfoil on the cnc plane
[19:32:14] <ENHering> That would make building large wingspans easier
[19:32:37] <ENHering> But I could find no cheap laser that cuts through styrofoam
[19:33:00] <carabia> like what, tilting it 90 deg?
[19:33:07] <Casper> use hot wire
[19:33:21] <ENHering> hot wire needs two ends
[19:33:25] <carabia> hot wire's nice but you'd need a long shaft around it
[19:34:17] <ENHering> in principle the cnc can be lifted and the styrofoam be placed below it, hanging vertically
[19:34:23] <carabia> if you're using styrofoam, you could just sand the profile yourself
[19:34:42] <carabia> as styrofoam has margins by default, it's not the most rigid of materials
[19:34:59] <ENHering> styrofoam + balsa
[19:35:12] <carabia> as in?
[19:35:23] <ENHering> or styrofoam + carbon fiber
[19:35:28] <carabia> just styrofoam and carbon fiber spars
[19:35:58] <ENHering> hum
[19:36:12] <carabia> or piano wire
[19:36:26] <ENHering> maybe
[19:36:39] <carabia> either or. carbon yields a bit better results. but even then, the resulting profile is nowhere near as rigid as a plain balsa wing
[19:36:48] <ENHering> i wanted to cut the whole wing in one pass
[19:37:11] <ENHering> and insert structure later
[19:37:42] <carabia> when i was flying epp-models compared to balsa models with same expos and control limits (well, relative), the difference is like night and day
[19:38:30] <ENHering> I did my last 3m wing in balsa. 3 sections.
[19:38:58] <ENHering> But I want a cheap, easily reproducible wing, to test the control system in the future.
[19:39:12] <ENHering> off the shelf in minutes
[19:39:14] <carabia> I hope you used solarfilm!
[19:39:43] <ENHering> Not closed yet. Only balsa for now.
[19:40:28] <carabia> oh
[19:41:12] <carabia> is it gonna be what, slope? dlg? tow?
[19:41:24] <ENHering> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y3piz4e39qlplfs/bigbrother.zip?dl=0
[19:41:43] <ENHering> This model, modified to 3m.
[19:42:32] <ENHering> I bought electric and fuel engines. Not decided what to install yet.
[19:42:49] <carabia> hmh, i don't have any cad-stuff installed
[19:43:38] <carabia> oh, so it's gonna be powered
[19:44:09] <ENHering> Yep. Retractible. My last ones were towed
[19:44:27] <ENHering> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3m8nbmlhekmpuqr/Big%20Brother.png?dl=0
[19:44:31] <ENHering> This is i PNG
[19:44:33] <ENHering> in
[19:44:36] <carabia> oh, fancy.
[19:45:13] <carabia> I would imagine if you want retractible it's easier to go electric
[19:45:27] <ENHering> And cleaner too
[19:45:34] <carabia> way cleaner
[19:45:58] <carabia> as a matter of fact I don't think of any reasons why you'd want to put gas or glow on a glider
[19:46:03] <carabia> I can't think of, even
[19:46:28] <ENHering> When I started to build it I wanted to install lifters on the wings, to see if they would increase thrust
[19:47:31] <ENHering> Because that glider was meant to carry scientific equipment. A modular capsule full of expensive stuff.
[19:47:54] <carabia> however not anymore?
[19:48:14] <ENHering> Scientific equipment yes, in the future.
[19:48:21] <carabia> alright
[19:48:45] <ENHering> The lifter along the wings no. I got afraid of high voltage sparks after many hours of cutting balsa.
[19:49:05] <ENHering> The lifter can easily burn everything.
[19:50:16] <carabia> don't really think it's a viable idea but then again, haven't done that
[19:50:18] <ENHering> This is the lifter:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
[19:50:25] <carabia> don't think a lot of others have either
[19:50:29] <ENHering> It flies. It is a fact.
[19:51:04] <carabia> well sure, but what the fuck's the efficiency
[19:51:09] <ENHering> I wondered if it could increase thrust if oriented horizontally.
[19:51:31] <ENHering> On a glider, and thrust could make a difference.
[19:51:39] <ENHering> any
[19:52:20] <carabia> ah like this
[19:52:32] <carabia> oh alright. this is even more experimental shiz than i expected
[19:52:50] <ENHering> HV wire 2cm from the attack border. Aluminum plate along the wing.
[19:53:04] <carabia> leading edge!
[19:53:14] <carabia> yeah, got it
[19:53:21] <ENHering> Ok. In portuguese is bordo de ataque...
[19:53:32] <carabia> haha i know what you mean
[19:53:43] <carabia> you know, then again, if air-time is the crux here
[19:53:44] <ENHering> I should know those names...
[19:53:52] <carabia> you /could/ just use a weather balloon
[19:54:07] <ENHering> Not manouverable.
[19:54:42] <ENHering> But this is future philosophy.
[19:55:07] <ENHering> Present philosophy is SPI communication...
[19:55:13] <carabia> but there'd be a good project
[19:55:19] <carabia> a maneuverable balloon
[19:55:31] <ENHering> In a windless environment.
[19:55:43] <carabia> sure
[19:56:21] <carabia> you could build something like a smaller-scale blimp
[19:56:45] <carabia> small-scale, even
[19:56:45] <ENHering> Some people called a long time ago to make a balloon that could lift a mobile phone high enough to see the horizon round and then take a picture of it for a phone operator.
[19:57:23] <ENHering> They desisted when we calculated the cost of it.
[19:57:42] <carabia> well. if the mobile phone's safe return is unnecessary, then it might be quite straightforward
[19:57:44] <ENHering> Small scale blimp would be nice indeed.
[19:58:32] <ENHering> You cannot launch this everywhere. And it would not work in the first try.
[19:58:58] <ENHering> When you put that into account the price goes higher than they expected.
[19:59:12] <carabia> well yes, however the bureaucracy shouldn't cost too much, though, i am unaware of brazilian customes!
[19:59:18] <carabia> customs.
[19:59:48] <carabia> you could just send up small cameras with cheap rf links instead of phones
[20:00:13] <ENHering> If you trey this oficially here it will get VERY expensive. We needed just not to knock down any real plane. Even though they desisted.
[20:00:39] <carabia> you'd need a termination after suffessul reception
[20:01:26] <carabia> as a matter of fact, you can get high enough with a bottle rocket to see the curvature of earth quite plainly
[20:01:42] <ENHering> I'd like to see that.
[20:01:52] <carabia> alright
[20:01:54] <carabia> hold on
[20:02:49] <ENHering> Another dream I have, but surely not for now, is to start an international joint university competition to see which group puts the first robot on the moon. No government, no military, just students.
[20:03:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> define robot
[20:04:14] <ENHering> anything controllable from here. Capable of moving and taking pictures.
[20:04:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> so, basically, google lunar x-prize
[20:04:55] <ENHering> just students.
[20:05:13] <carabia> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/6_14_07_2068_Feet.jpg
[20:05:46] <carabia> it's not a bottle rocket so to speak, it's carbon-laminated fluorescent tube covering
[20:05:47] <ENHering> This is lens curvature, carabia
[20:06:05] <ENHering> 3000m?
[20:06:18] <ENHering> 2000, maybe.
[20:06:40] <carabia> the lens is tilted, shouldn't purely fisheye be distorted along the x-axis more
[20:06:47] <carabia> well, actually y
[20:07:04] <carabia> anyway, if we're talking kms then sure it's a no-go
[20:07:28] <carabia> then it's either a balloon, or an easier option to just get a pyro motor
[20:07:33] <carabia> and proper permissions for that
[20:07:36] <ENHering> Lambda_Aurigae: Just students in universities. Small groups, amybe of nine students, three of each year, so the knowledge is kept in the group.
[20:07:47] <carabia> the bodies are quite cheap. and you can make one yourself easily.
[20:08:13] <carabia> as you have a cnc, et cetera.
[20:08:23] <ENHering> I'd like o build one such rocket, carabia
[20:08:43] <ENHering> Hope I do it in the future.
[20:09:06] <ENHering> Nice picture
[20:09:25] <carabia> for a dumb rocket, not very hard. there's simple calculations for stability on the area of the cross-section vs center of gravity, and aerodynamics
[20:09:41] <carabia> though pyro motors here require you to go through hoops to get the license. but that's just us.
[20:10:41] <carabia> there's plenty of recovery system designs available, and building one yourself isn't that challenging either, as you're not that limited with payload capacity with a pyro motor
[20:12:11] <carabia> obviously you are, just not as much as with a water design
[20:12:40] <ENHering> Sounds a lot of fun
[20:13:52] <carabia> yeah. mostly it's either a timer, a magnetic sensor or an air pressure sensor or combination of these
[20:14:11] <ENHering> I read about this in the past, but never tried. Have you ever built one?
[20:14:32] <carabia> a pyro one? no, friend did
[20:14:55] <carabia> i've built two cf-laminated water ones
[20:15:42] <carabia> ...or an accelerometer, adding to the list
[20:17:04] <ENHering> How high they have gone? Could you measure?
[20:17:48] <carabia> yeah. the best i could ever do was around 250 meters, which is not bad for it to be just a ft cover with cf on it
[20:18:02] <ENHering> It is a lot.
[20:18:41] <carabia> it wasn't quite 250, but in the ballpark. give or take 10 meters
[20:19:03] <ENHering> My daughter is now 6 months old. I'll teach a lot of stuff to her when she grows older. I hope she likes those toys too.
[20:19:46] <carabia> those rockets start getting very dangerous anyway
[20:20:09] <carabia> it was close to 20 bars, i was hesitant to push 20
[20:20:30] <ENHering> dangerous... A lot of bars inside.
[20:20:34] <carabia> 20 bars is like what, a shit ton of psi for muricanos
[20:20:59] <ENHering> 290
[20:21:58] <carabia> yeah. you also need to build everything super sturdy as the acceleration it undergoes is way higher than with a pyro motor
[20:21:59] <ENHering> Helium cylinders in the lab worked at 2000 PSI. I have worked surrounded by bombs for many years
[20:23:30] <ENHering> 137 bars...
[20:24:03] <carabia> yeah, we got an idea from a couple of folks who built a lot of bottle rockets, and we got a scuba tank for pressurizing
[20:24:27] <carabia> > 2000 PSI
[20:24:39] <ENHering> I visited a weapons factory here a long time ago. They tested their electronics in a shacking machine with many, many G's.
[20:25:44] <ENHering> No wires were immune. I cannot imagine how to fit a camera to a rocket and make it stay in the same position
[20:26:08] <ENHering> You must need a lot of glue.
[20:26:22] <carabia> yees!
[20:26:35] <carabia> you can get > 50 G
[20:26:54] <carabia> the one where the picture was taken from that I showed you, undergoes way more than that.
[20:27:08] <carabia> juggling some numbers off the top of my head
[20:27:47] <ENHering> There is a book, wait... This one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JRMRK8M/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00JRMRK8M&linkCode=as2&tag=enheriwebs-20&linkId=SH3QNDJCNCZLJWAW
[20:28:21] <ENHering> The author calculates the acceleration of UFOs, based on videos, to be 100G.
[20:28:53] <ENHering> They basically disappear from your view at this acceleration. Just twice the one from your rocket.
[20:29:26] <learath> erm 100g?
[20:29:36] <carabia> yeah, well the way the rockets work is you just want to eject all the mass as fast as possible with a nozzle as large as possible, and most of the trip's just coasting.
[20:29:43] <ENHering> I did not know a small rocket could reach 50G.
[20:29:53] <carabia> and of course to have the rocket body as slim as possible
[20:30:15] <ENHering> interesting
[20:30:17] <carabia> kind of like how big rockets work. but fast-forwarded.
[20:30:55] <ENHering> very interesting
[20:31:56] <ENHering> This book is very nice. Well written. If we could ever find what creates a repulsive field we would be able to make our own UFOs.
[20:33:30] <ENHering> Back to rockets, all the mass as fast as possible with a nozzle as large as possible needs a lot of science to converge.
[20:33:44] <carabia> well 50g isn't impossible.
[20:34:22] <ENHering> Very interesting
[20:34:30] <carabia> but the pressures you're talking then they are extreme. i am quite sure the rocket that set the world record went > 50G
[20:35:44] <carabia> and no, it wasn't kms. it's only 600-something meters
[20:35:45] <ENHering> There is a guy here in Brazil that says he knows a lot about rockets. He always tries government money to advance hydrogen engines for rockets. He syas they are the future.
[20:36:27] <carabia> talking about pressures of close to 50 bar
[20:37:07] <carabia> LH2?
[20:37:23] <ENHering> I understood yes
[20:37:30] <rue_house> 730psi rocket?
[20:37:37] <carabia> rue_house: indeed
[20:38:29] <carabia> lh2 engines have been used in rockets ever since... the saturn v?
[20:38:40] <ENHering> no idea
[20:38:41] <carabia> if not earlier.
[20:39:17] <carabia> they are just troublesome for first stages due to liquid helium being so what the hell is the opposite of dense
[20:39:54] <carabia> you need a larger volume tank and it's more difficult to pump enough of it into the combustion chamber
[20:40:07] <carabia> whereas kerosene has less energy/mass but is more dense
[20:40:39] <carabia> elon musk et al. however propose methane to replace kerosene
[20:41:15] <ENHering> science everywhere
[20:41:49] <carabia> however mr. musk should probably focus on not having his rockets explode on the pad before venturing into experimental engine designs
[20:43:05] <ENHering> :)
[20:43:18] <ENHering> frustrating...
[20:43:58] <ENHering> aeronautical engineer?
[20:44:03] <carabia> no
[20:44:06] <carabia> haha, i wish
[20:44:12] <ENHering> my brother is
[20:44:12] <carabia> my puny brain can't hack that
[20:44:27] <carabia> that's cool!
[20:44:40] <ENHering> I have someone to ask difficult questions
[20:44:55] <ENHering> But answers are usually complex. Too complex.
[20:45:38] <ENHering> I once could understand some things. Now I can't. Brain wore out.
[20:46:41] <carabia> haha
[20:51:42] <ENHering> Everybody here is always so quiet?
[20:53:37] <carabia> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r9gmLfpFTg found it
[20:54:26] <carabia> the record flight is at 640 psi, but the world record is ~100 meters higher
[20:55:06] <carabia> the high acceleration is obviously momentary after the rocket clears the launch pipe, when actual water starts to eject
[20:55:39] <carabia> the launch pipe is there so the system acts like a piston and provides initial acceleration before you start to eject the actual mass
[21:02:25] <ENHering> Vey nice video
[21:02:27] <ENHering> Very
[21:02:46] <ENHering> The rocket is big. I imagined it smaller
[21:04:36] <carabia> yeah that's quite a big one... i'm thinking they could go higher with a smaller design, but i don't know. it's a tradeoff with enough structural strength vs volume vs mass, so i don't know how slim designs you can justify to hold pressures that high
[21:06:03] <ENHering> Can hot water be used?
[21:06:52] <ENHering> Discharge a lipo battery over a resistor inside to keep the pressure high until the last water drop leaves the chamber?
[21:07:21] <carabia> yoouuu mean to steam it?
[21:07:26] <ENHering> yep
[21:07:37] <carabia> hmm, possibly, but then you have the battery as a payload...
[21:07:47] <ENHering> you could use the same structure
[21:08:08] <ENHering> lipo batteries can be very light weight
[21:08:17] <carabia> i know, but your margins are low
[21:08:41] <ENHering> A few grams of well charged lipo can hold a lot of energy
[21:08:50] <carabia> sure
[21:09:00] <carabia> don't know if anyone's done that
[21:09:18] <ENHering> It could be a nice try
[21:09:38] <carabia> what some people suggest for better performance is to use co2 instead of air, for its higher density
[21:09:39] <ENHering> electric shower wire wound inside the chamber
[21:09:51] <carabia> I think for the 600+ m flights they used co2
[21:10:07] <ENHering> you can also use heavy water...
[21:10:14] <carabia> that too
[21:10:21] <carabia> or something else altogether
[21:10:22] <ENHering> expensive engine...
[21:10:44] <carabia> yeah, cheaper and safer is just to get pyro motors :)
[21:12:42] <ENHering> steaming is cheap.
[21:14:06] <ENHering> can you use capilaries to hold the water, instead of putting all of it in a chamber? I imagine turbulence inside the liquid makes things less efficient
[21:15:19] <ENHering> If yu could align many thin tubes axially with the rocket, the water inside them would be ejected in the right direction.
[21:17:27] <ENHering> There was an article on hackaday about somebody obsessed with making a water gun. They used many thin tubes in the gun output to make the water jet fly furhter away
[21:21:51] <carabia> probably could, would need to be tested
[21:22:09] <ENHering> https://hackaday.com/2016/06/21/brutal-water-cannon-defeats-summer-heat-while-killing-it-on-documentation/
[21:22:11] <ENHering> This one.
[21:24:10] <carabia> if you'd really want then you would really have to test nozzles too
[21:24:22] <carabia> to really start engineering the thing
[21:25:14] <carabia> though, actually probably not. full bore is probably the best way to go in any case
[21:26:19] <carabia> you probably wouldn't need like full capillaries, just a few guide vanes or so
[21:26:35] <ENHering> Maybe.
[21:26:55] <ENHering> But then you would have turbulence in the capillaries entrance
[21:27:14] <carabia> you could extend them over the water level
[21:27:33] <ENHering> If you mix that with... Wait... Schauberger...
[21:28:12] <ENHering> https://www.dropbox.com/s/c97xv6bopkqu35e/ViktorSchauberger-LivingWater.pdf?dl=0
[21:28:14] <carabia> there's tops 1/3 water in the vessel
[21:28:42] <carabia> so you basically just extend whatever over the water level and you can get rid of top vortices
[21:29:06] <ENHering> Schauberger increased the flux inside a tube many times above the maximum by adding vortices along the flow
[21:29:31] <ENHering> he could carry iron ore using water
[21:31:10] <carabia> but you see, the idea here is to get rid of the water asap
[21:31:12] <carabia> not to carry it
[21:31:17] <ENHering> For a very long distance
[21:31:38] <carabia> the idea is just go get insane acceleration and then coast
[21:31:41] <ENHering> if you can use his idea to increase the water flow inside the capillary
[21:31:57] <ENHering> than you can eject water faster
[21:32:12] <carabia> that seems counter-intuitive at best
[21:32:21] <carabia> but i guess it works, then
[21:32:33] <ENHering> the idea is to add angular momentum to the flow.
[21:32:48] <ENHering> There are more books by him. I have sent you one.
[21:33:02] <ENHering> He has many patents.
[21:33:15] <carabia> yeah, this is quite the long one, can't go through this in one go
[21:34:06] <ENHering> Maybe, many such special capillaries aligned along the pressure chamber can not only direct the flow but also increase its speed.
[21:34:30] <ENHering> The tubes he used had a kind of coil inside to make the water rotate while flowing.
[21:35:24] <ENHering> He even made a machine to create a rotating dent along the tube
[21:35:47] <carabia> yeah i'm reading some article by (or of his) observations, something called a trout turbine
[21:35:54] <ENHering> There are many articles about him on google.
[21:36:02] <carabia> http://www.iet-community.org/publications/reports/IET%20Scientific%20and%20Technical%20Reports%20No%201.pdf
[21:36:45] <ENHering> I have meditated a bit about those and arrived at some conclusions. I can share them after you arrive at yours.
[21:37:25] <carabia> well, it's 5 AM over here, i think i'm gonna hit the bed soon enough. it's a long weekend for me
[21:37:42] <ENHering> Lete here too
[21:37:44] <ENHering> late
[21:37:45] <carabia> but i'm definitely gonna get back to you, just going to skim this for now
[21:37:58] <ENHering> good reading
[21:39:06] <ENHering> bye everybody.
[21:39:58] <carabia> nn
[21:41:04] <ENHering> There is also a book called The Energy Evolution, from him.
[21:41:20] <ENHering> If you cannot find it I can send by some way.
