Back
[00:08:38] <sabor> owl-v-: yes, some USARTs have an SPI mode
[00:09:43] <sabor> watch out for a chapter "USART in SPI Mode" in your datasheet
[00:29:06] <owl-v-> sabor, why watch out? is there errata on USART?
[01:42:41] <_ami_> owl-v-:
http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc2577.pdf
[04:44:38] <carabia> Sup avr
[04:46:52] <sabor> nop
[04:48:29] <carabia> ty, appreciated
[04:48:45] <sabor> you're welcome :)
[04:49:13] <carabia> okay so here's a general question regarding guis
[04:50:15] <carabia> for a window to have a border, would you rather have the window's border placed inside or the outside of the window area
[04:53:00] <sabor> good question
[04:53:19] <_ami_> carabia: outside window area.
[04:53:25] <_ami_> thats how X does
[04:53:47] <_ami_> border is separate element in X.
[04:53:47] <sabor> i'd say outside, when i specify the size for a window i expect that the usable content will have this size
[04:54:29] <sabor> talking about X the advantage is that a different border width won't affect the content of the window
[04:54:53] <carabia> I guess that does make sense.
[04:55:58] <carabia> That's out of the way, let's talk commie-stuff. How's wayland doing?
[04:56:27] <carabia> For you commie-lovers...
[05:00:22] <sabor> i hope it's not finished soon or i'd have to port/rewrite my favorite window manager
[05:02:09] <_ami_> sabor: whihc one? :)
[05:02:13] <_ami_> which*
[05:02:20] <sabor> olvwm
[05:03:56] <sabor> rally oldschool but it has a fantastic virtual desktop and is slim and fast :)
[05:11:06] <_ami_> but its not *FANCY*
[05:11:17] <_ami_> really old school. :)
[05:11:46] * twnqx sticks to enlightenment
[05:11:50] <_ami_> sabor: give a try to enlightenment. :)
[05:12:02] <_ami_> twnqx: aha, did not know. nice! :)
[05:12:27] <_ami_> twnqx: are you using it over arch linux? or suse?
[05:12:30] <sabor> i'm using olvwm since over 20 years :)
[05:12:33] <twnqx> gentoo
[05:12:53] <twnqx> best distro for development, imho
[05:13:08] <sabor> and it can handle 100+ windows without becoming too messy ;)
[05:13:22] <_ami_> time to go home~
[05:13:25] <_ami_> bye
[05:13:30] <twnqx> sigh
[05:13:31] <sabor> bye
[05:13:36] <twnqx> that wasn't the program i wanted to start
[05:13:54] * twnqx listens to the cpu fan whine after starting chrome with too many open tabs
[05:15:10] <carabia> twnqx: I guess it development means developing the os
[05:15:13] <carabia> it = if
[05:15:25] <twnqx> more like "anything"
[05:15:30] <carabia> otherwise, i rather spend my time on developing my shit than fixing the operating system
[05:16:11] <twnqx> i never understood that particular prejudice against gentoo
[05:16:58] <twnqx> i mean, it simply doesn't break
[05:17:04] <carabia> i used to have gentoo as desktop for a few years. But that was a long time ago.
[05:17:04] <sabor> does gentoo have binary packages these days?
[05:17:08] <carabia> long long time ago.
[05:17:10] <twnqx> unlike debian, which crashes hard at least once per month
[05:17:19] <twnqx> thanks to the crapfest systemd
[05:17:20] <carabia> the niche with it was to be able to optimize it
[05:17:31] <carabia> and with modern hardware i hardly see the point
[05:17:46] <twnqx> optimization was never the point
[05:18:04] <twnqx> it wasn't when i started ~2002, and it isn't today
[05:18:05] <sabor> my debian doesn't crash, and systemd is what's been missing in linux for ages
[05:18:07] <carabia> maybe i had a wrong take on it then, as it was to me
[05:18:59] <twnqx> sabor: if by "missing" you mean "render as unusable as windows", you are right
[05:19:30] <sabor> sorry, but thes crappy init scripts should have gone long time ago
[05:19:43] <carabia> lunix people going crazy. Love it
[05:20:00] <twnqx> i'll agree that the init system is okish
[05:20:01] <sabor> some people payd a lot of money to get something like systemd on their *IX
[05:20:09] <twnqx> i just wonder how to keep control
[05:20:26] <twnqx> e.g. how to hot terminate a process that systemd wants to respawn my any means
[05:20:36] <twnqx> i had that issues with a dhcpd
[05:20:47] <twnqx> i could not "shut it down cleanly" as i'd lose access to the system
[05:20:50] <sabor> keeping control is easy, read the manual of systemctl and do it
[05:20:55] <twnqx> (it would recondifure network)
[05:21:11] <sabor> just some information should be displayed more readable, some things are still pretty messy
[05:21:22] <twnqx> systemctl has no option to "just stop supervising the process without touching it"
[05:21:46] <twnqx> i tried for two hours, inclusing asking people who know more about it than me
[05:21:59] <sabor> hmm, it's not made for that ;)
[05:22:12] <twnqx> yes, but i needed _exactly that_
[05:22:18] <twnqx> clean shutdown -> lose access
[05:22:24] <sabor> maybe they'll include such features later
[05:22:25] <twnqx> keep supervising -> fuck up manuyl changes
[05:22:36] <carabia> How does this contribute to productivity, twnqx?
[05:22:48] <twnqx> it was a workaround for a technical issue
[05:22:56] <sabor> i can access my systems also without dhcpd ;)
[05:22:56] <twnqx> i needed to change a default route as the main line was broken
[05:23:24] <twnqx> so yeah, it really contributes to your productivity if you can access the network
[05:23:39] <carabia> Oh wait hey, I can do that in about 3 seconds on windows
[05:23:44] <twnqx> with a quick, temporary change that will be gone on next reboot without manual intervention
[05:23:52] <twnqx> yes? can you?
[05:24:00] <carabia> indeed
[05:24:21] <carabia> But fixing a system for a mundane task, I guess that's productivity
[05:24:42] <twnqx> i am pretty sure windows dhcp will, like any dhcp, re-set the default route after the five minute refresh
[05:25:14] <twnqx> and if you use the UI to switch off dhcp, you will have to go back there to turn it back on
[05:25:26] <twnqx> i am not sure if netsh changes are temporary or not
[05:25:29] <carabia> And this takes exactly how long?
[05:26:07] <carabia> well, well, well.
[05:26:56] <twnqx> the change on my systems takes about 5 seconds
[05:27:14] <twnqx> on a systemd powered system i don't know how to do it -> learning curve
[05:27:40] <twnqx> but also, you learn many different things about what you work with, which always is good (in my oppinion)
[05:28:02] <twnqx> some people might not care about the tools they use, and it's up to them if they do or not
[05:28:28] <carabia> twnqx: exactly.
[05:28:46] <twnqx> but _I_ want to exactly know what's going on under the hood
[05:28:59] <twnqx> i want to be able to fix the system if it breaks, for whatever reason
[05:29:06] <carabia> twnqx: and as for the argument of productivity, that's mostly irrelevant
[05:29:09] <twnqx> and i never managed to salvage a windows, ever
[05:29:16] <twnqx> mh?
[05:29:49] <carabia> you can still argue with the point that if something breaks fubar once in a blue moon, you want to fix it. But hey, sure. Exceptions always exist
[05:29:53] <twnqx> i never saw an argument about productivity here
[05:30:15] <carabia> < carabia> twnqx: I guess it development means developing the os
[05:30:24] <carabia> < twnqx> more like "anything"
[05:30:43] <carabia> If that's not an argument of productivity, ...
[05:30:50] <twnqx> not to me, no
[05:30:57] <carabia> Okay then.
[05:31:05] <carabia> Agreed to disagree
[05:31:36] <twnqx> i spent less time fixing gentoos than windows' just to be able to work, and reinstallations when my MCSE friends couldn't help me any more usually meant a loss of 1-2 days
[05:32:36] <carabia> doing avr/arm/general ee development, there's been little-to-no things i've had to "fix"
[05:32:50] <twnqx> what i was talking about was the difference between gentoo and other linux distros to begin with, and i perceive it as an advantage if you have the software for development (compiler & co in particular) preinstaleld
[05:33:44] <carabia> some minor things such as cross-compiling openocd (cause i couldn't find a binary fresh enough), but i did it on my debian server, could have installed msys2 but figured not to...
[05:33:46] <twnqx> carabia: i got (not mine, luckily) windows in states where "yeah, it takes 10 minutes to start up" "it takes 30 minutes to shut down" "this one updates installs, reboots, fails, rolls back in an endless loop"
[05:34:01] <twnqx> in perfectly normal office use (excel, word, email, web)
[05:34:45] <carabia> I am not even kidding or being sarcastic when I say you're doing something horribly wrong.
[05:34:48] <twnqx> i use my (native) windows for playing games exclusive, though, and my VM "just works"
[05:35:04] <twnqx> and i don't have issues there
[05:38:08] <carabia> while I do appreciate the input, your examples must have been taken out of context in some way shape or form. It's biased, and I do wonder if you have given the same amount of thought in "fixing" windows than you have done with gentoo. I'd assume not, as gentoo's "learning curve" is quite steep, at best
[05:41:21] <twnqx> hm
[05:41:33] <twnqx> sure didn't feel like it to me
[05:43:33] <twnqx> what i meant is i never found any way to debug any issues i ever had on windows, didn't find any explanations for anything, no detailed documentations on the inner workings
[05:43:47] <twnqx> e.g. just last weekend i booted windows again
[05:44:05] <twnqx> and there's a netsvc.exe taking up 100% cpu (one core) for no reason
[05:44:11] <twnqx> (no reason visible to me)
[05:44:39] <twnqx> i had to ask around for a long time to even figure out how to check what a particular netsvc instance is doing
[05:45:08] <twnqx> (and with "using" i mean "yeah, 8h later the cpu fan is still audible")
[05:45:36] <twnqx> so after being annoyed for 8h i found it's something something windows update
[05:45:56] <carabia> To me it seems like it's a big (if not the biggest) reason why people move to the linux camp, to have the ability to study the system, if for nothing else, just to have that choice.
[05:45:59] <twnqx> but how i would go from there to figure out WHY it is using 100% is beyond me
[05:46:29] <twnqx> some people might not care about randomly having additional noise (my system is built to have no noise when idle)
[05:46:40] <twnqx> or extra power draw
[05:47:14] <carabia> if it's a laptop, surely that's a valid argument
[05:47:15] <twnqx> but yes, if my computer does something while i did not tell it to, i want to know what it is doing and why
[05:48:21] <carabia> but yes, randomly having additional noise, I do agree. As so many arguments displayed in this conversation has been empirical, from both sides, I can also say well, "I've never had that."
[05:48:32] <carabia> has = have
[05:49:11] <twnqx> well, i hang out in other IRC channels with professional windows admins in full time jobs doing that complaining
[05:49:59] <carabia> And if we're talking about gentoo, how many gentoo systems do you think "professional admins", or even professional developers use as their platform?
[05:50:09] <twnqx> i admit that it's stuff i don't really understand beyond concepts and what it is supposed to do, like group policies
[05:50:16] <twnqx> dunno
[05:50:37] <twnqx> in my company, IT is so annoyed by anything else, all remaining debians are now replaced
[05:50:55] <carabia> ...By not gentoo, I am sure.
[05:50:59] <twnqx> (hint: i am not involved in that, at all)
[05:51:03] <twnqx> by gentoo.
[05:51:17] <carabia> Haha. Alright. Good luck with that
[05:51:27] <twnqx> it's only 100 or so machines including VMs, not much
[05:51:40] <carabia> I'll be keen on you having reporting back in a couple of months afterwards
[05:52:56] <twnqx> if i were telling you that my private servers run gentoo since ~2002 and i did never have problems, would you believe me? :S
[05:53:08] <carabia> no
[05:53:16] <twnqx> the only reinstalls i ever did were 32->64bit migrations
[05:53:31] <carabia> also back to your sysadmin argument, what exactly do these sysadmins do? Maintain servers?
[05:53:52] <twnqx> servers and linux desktops
[05:54:33] <twnqx> i mean, we run some machines on testing to look out for upcoming problems, and stable on the regular systems
[05:54:36] <carabia> At no point was I talking about servers.
[05:54:47] <twnqx> well, i run gentoo on my desktops since then, too
[05:55:33] <carabia> I do agree, it's stupid at best to have windows server whatever the current version is.
[05:55:51] <twnqx> dunno, we reached 2 years uptime with a windows server 2012 :P
[05:56:23] <twnqx> that was not company though. just some random machine on the internet that was required to run windows UI software in rdp
[05:56:23] <carabia> Surely, but I don't see the point in licensing it as you can do it perfectly well with commie-lunixes
[05:56:47] <twnqx> there are a lot of reasons to run microsoft servers
[05:56:51] <carabia> majority of use-cases anyway
[05:57:05] <carabia> I was talking about desktops and developing whatever on them.
[05:57:32] <twnqx> dunno, i know some company that just says "it's cheaper to run a farm of windows servers than having to double the knowhow"
[05:58:17] <twnqx> me too, but i admit that sometimes i wish for different/better tools than linux offers to me currently
[05:58:18] <carabia> It all depends on the knowhow. I don't think windows sysadmins are cheaper than any others.
[05:58:40] <twnqx> sure, but you need them anyway if you have enough windows desktops ;)
[05:59:11] <carabia> could be argued, but we can play along.
[06:00:27] <twnqx> i'll give you that windows server and windows desktops are sufficiently different to require different skills
[06:00:39] <carabia> yes, exactly
[06:01:09] <twnqx> but at least you have a common foundation
[06:01:54] <carabia> anyway, i am not an expert in matters of windows servers or networking on such scale, and i don't know why you pulled the conversation into this. I still stand my ground on windows not being a bad platform to develop on, depending on the use-case.
[06:02:14] <twnqx> i say "to everyone their own" to this
[06:02:40] <twnqx> windows' UI drives me mad, but i guess that's mostly from being exposed to a different one for the past 20 or so years
[06:03:47] <carabia> and i say it's objectively true, forgetting all skillsets you know. Depends on the use-case, and it will get super dicky to go into the details of every one.
[06:04:04] <twnqx> and initially, i wasn't even comapring linux to windows, you started that :P i was comparing gentoo to other linux
[06:04:44] <twnqx> and my original point, which i never wrote out, was that gentoo has all the tools installed by default, and you don't have to dig around for separated libraries/headers like on most other distros ;)
[06:04:46] <carabia> even in that case i'd say it's easier to set up a debian-based distribution and /have it running/ than gentoo.
[06:06:02] <twnqx> it takes me about an hour more to set up a gentoo than a debian, agreed
[06:06:49] <twnqx> and that's thanks to experience and references, of course; a starter would probably need days.
[06:07:51] <carabia> keyword: "me". Yes, you.
[06:08:31] <carabia> for someone who might be doing completely os-irrelevant development work, and has no interest in anything but having /his/ tools work, it certainly is not
[06:09:17] <twnqx> i wonder if you have minutes long lag; that's basically what i wrote in my last line
[06:09:31] <twnqx> _to me_ understaning my tools is important
[06:09:43] <twnqx> i don't want to be the one using his drill to put nails into somethign
[06:09:52] <twnqx> even though that might work, too
[06:09:56] <carabia> i just kind of wanted to drive the point home as you've been kind of counter-arguing that all along
[06:10:57] <twnqx> what
[06:11:07] <twnqx> i have been saying it's about preference and personal interest
[06:11:17] <twnqx> from the very beginning
[06:11:42] <twnqx> i never never said, at any point, that other people shouldn't chose differently
[06:12:03] <twnqx> i have given arguments for my personal choice
[06:12:46] <twnqx> i have said that i disagree with your argument about productivity, since i believe that once you settled in, the productivity is the same
[06:13:25] <twnqx> (it would take me ages to reach the same productivity levels i have on linux on windows, just because of the way i use the UI which is not the way windows requires you to work
[06:13:46] <twnqx> or on ubuntu or debian
[06:14:12] <twnqx> i need a minute every time i boot up an ubuntu to find the shell, it would take me months to master it
[06:14:18] <carabia> that's a quasi-valid and interesting point to make, but you fail to ackowledge my argument of not being interested of the platform you use.
[06:14:24] <twnqx> but once i settled in, it would be the same
[06:15:09] <carabia> it's not merely a question of "settling in", as in finding where things are. To run something such as gentoo, you need to go further than that.
[06:15:46] <carabia> one could say ways further...
[06:15:56] <twnqx> hm
[06:16:08] <twnqx> i use win+r, start of command i want to run, enter
[06:16:20] <twnqx> ... and that's how i use windows, too
[06:16:26] <carabia> irrelevant
[06:16:54] <twnqx> then i'll admit i don't get your point
[06:17:18] <twnqx> if i want to use windows, i need to figure out how to keep it running (e.g. updates), and how to start programs
[06:17:27] <twnqx> same holds true for any other OS of choice
[06:17:46] <twnqx> unless you have an IT department to take care of that, and then your point is moot again, because that holds true for anything
[06:17:50] <carabia> oh that's where you were going with it...
[06:18:05] <twnqx> no, i simply don't understand your point
[06:18:09] <twnqx> it just is all the same to me
[06:18:16] <carabia> well, if we're on the subject of updates
[06:18:16] <twnqx> you choose what you're comfortable with
[06:18:48] <twnqx> or what is needed due to external requirements, e.g. your software only being avalible on one OS or the other
[06:19:06] <carabia> yeah, to you it is. to others it may not.
[06:19:14] <twnqx> i don't see anything else to it, and we can continue this discussion in half an hour, as my lunch is on the table already
[06:19:22] <carabia> you really need to keep empirical experiences out of this equation
[06:19:52] <twnqx> but i'd hope you can explain your point better to me, because i really, really, really don't get it
[06:20:16] <carabia> I'd assume you're not trying enough
[06:20:22] <twnqx> no, really
[06:20:27] <twnqx> you have requirements to follow
[06:20:31] <twnqx> external factors
[06:20:53] <twnqx> after that, all is your chice
[06:21:02] <twnqx> and i don't see how that matters
[06:21:05] <carabia> yeah, but your skillsets.
[06:21:12] <carabia> so, let's take updates for example
[06:21:24] <carabia> for this we'd need to compare windows update to let's say portage
[06:21:48] <carabia> fair?
[06:25:29] <carabia> i have no interest in continuing this conversation, but that comparison alone should raise some eyebrows
[06:43:58] <twnqx> back
[06:44:33] <twnqx> before i answer your question, let me ask you one: what do you think would affect your choice for your operating system, if not your skillset and interest?
[06:45:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> the fact that I hate microsoft with a passion surpassed only by the hatred I have of politics and rap.
[06:45:35] <Thrashbarg> right on
[06:45:54] <twnqx> i'd subsummarize that as "interest"
[06:45:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> which is why I switch from windows to *nix back in the late 90s.
[06:46:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> I applied for a job at microsoft...flew out there twice.
[06:46:16] <twnqx> which doesn't add to the debate, as carabia wanted to get personal interest out of the way
[06:46:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> they offered to pay for the second trip.
[06:46:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> then told me I couldn't do the job because I didn't have a degree,,even though I proved my skills were beyond the rest of the applicants at the time.
[06:47:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> then they said they wouldn't pay for my plane tickets and hotel.
[06:47:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> I had to fight them to get that paid for.
[06:47:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> that was a 70 to 80 thousand dollar a year job in 1998!
[06:47:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> and because I didn't have a piece of wallpaper, they wouldn't hire me.
[06:48:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> even though the manager of the section was ready to do so and I had passed all their tests with flying colors.
[06:48:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> have hated microsoft ever since.
[06:49:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> but, I use whatever works best for me at the moment.
[06:49:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> windows when I have to do so, linux at other times.
[06:49:44] <twnqx> carabia: as for your question, i don't see much of a difference between automatic windows update and automatic update on any linux. the choice of gentoo is obviously because of skillset and interest, and i suppose those who chose gentoo out of interest will enjoy the additional detail that emerge will give beyond "an important update for windows". i am totally with you that there is much if a difference between the two, but i insist that
[06:49:44] <twnqx> those who chose one over the other make that choice exactly BECAUSE of personal interest
[06:50:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> I use windows at work because that is what is needed to do my job.
[06:50:40] <twnqx> and that is what i am referring to when making the choice, skillset and interest, after external requirements that you can affect
[06:50:46] <twnqx> can not*
[06:50:58] <Thrashbarg> Lambda_Aurigae: maybe they shouldn't have hired Bill Gates on the same grounds
[06:51:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> Thrashbarg, agreed...I even brought that up at the time...didn't do me any good...
[06:51:19] <twnqx> so i think that both of us are actually saying the same thing, or at least i just can't see the difference
[06:51:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> oh well..
[06:51:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> windows vs linux is much like pic vs avr
[06:51:55] <twnqx> Lambda_Aurigae: this is _NOT_ about windows windows vs linux.
[06:51:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> pick one, the other, or both,,,and just have fun.
[06:52:23] <twnqx> this is me trying to understand what point carabia is trying to make
[06:52:34] <twnqx> (and failing, so far)
[06:52:43] <_ami_> oh.. the same old WAR :/
[06:52:58] <twnqx> there is no war
[06:53:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> fight fight fight!
[06:53:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> hehe
[06:55:50] <twnqx> i am not trying to understand his choice, or argumenting against it. i am trying to understand how my point "choose what suits you, your skils, and your interest, given external requirements" collides with his argument "some people might not want to fully understand everything"
[06:57:00] <twnqx> or how something you know in and out after years of using it still automatically enforces less productivity than other systems
[06:57:12] <twnqx> this is what i do not understand
[06:57:30] <carabia> twnqx: to answer your question, ease-of-use with regards to required prehand knowledge
[06:58:28] <carabia> well, ease-of-use compared vs required knowledge, really
[06:58:35] <carabia> -vs
[06:58:50] <carabia> +to
[06:59:10] <twnqx> i'll agree to that, but if you happen to have the required knowledge? what is the difference then?
[06:59:44] <carabia> i was never trying to argue that, but what you should stop doing is trying to extend your skillset universally
[06:59:57] <twnqx> ... why?
[07:00:23] <carabia> not everyone needs to pursue your skillset to achieve productivity.
[07:00:24] <_ami_> carabia: why not to learn new things?
[07:00:36] <twnqx> yes, perfectly alright with me
[07:00:42] <twnqx> but why SHOULD i not?
[07:00:44] <carabia> _ami_: sure, yes. But this wasn't a question about hobbyist learning new things. This was about productivity.
[07:01:05] <twnqx> the stuff that i know a lot about many niches is _exactly_ why my customers pay 1.8k€/day
[07:01:08] <carabia> As said, if you're doing work. You want to focus on what's relevant.
[07:01:34] <twnqx> hm
[07:01:35] <carabia> twnqx: and if it's related to the platform, good for you. Not.
[07:01:42] <carabia> Not everyone's business are*
[07:01:48] <twnqx> yes
[07:01:59] <twnqx> but you put it like it's always the wrong and bad choice
[07:02:03] <carabia> Seriously do you have a hard time understanding this?
[07:02:32] <carabia> No, what you're putting is that everyone should learn linux systems just because.
[07:02:42] <twnqx> what
[07:02:44] <twnqx> where
[07:02:47] <twnqx> how
[07:02:59] <carabia> < twnqx> but why SHOULD i not?
[07:03:16] <twnqx> <carabia> < twnqx> but why SHOULD I not?
[07:03:32] <twnqx> excuse me for not bolding a question regarding my own, personal choice
[07:03:38] <carabia> yeah, we can keep going but i've made my point for the nth time and you still fail to understand it
[07:04:10] <twnqx> i never said, at no point, that it is not for anyone themselves to choise their tools based on their interest
[07:04:22] <carabia> yes, exactly, and for the - i lost count - time, this isn't about empirical knowledge or experiences.
[07:04:31] <twnqx> and i think i made it clear more than once that I chose MY tools based on MY interest
[07:04:49] <twnqx> so basically say
[07:04:58] <twnqx> that from an objective perspective
[07:05:06] <twnqx> people should limit their interest and knowledge
[07:05:10] <twnqx> ok
[07:05:19] <twnqx> if that is your point, we can but agree to disagree
[07:05:23] <twnqx> and you make me sad.
[07:05:33] <carabia> Are you really that ignorant or just playing stupid?
[07:06:19] <twnqx> i would hope stupid
[07:06:33] <twnqx> you say it's not about empirical knowledge
[07:06:33] <carabia> you failing to argumentize (is that even a word, i'm not sure) anything apart from empricial vantage point, and rebutting my points by picking bits out of context...
[07:06:46] <carabia> empirical*
[07:07:31] <twnqx> so please, i made an empirical standpoint. please, rephrase my line "choose what suits you, your skils, and your interest, given external requirements" in an objective way to help me understand
[07:08:49] <carabia> there's no rephrasing that, if you would just only understand it yourself too.
[07:09:13] <carabia> and there's really no need to put it that complicatedly, a loaded statement
[07:09:52] <twnqx> i understand it as "if you wnt o use windows, use windows. if you want a fast-to-install-linux and has a not-so-steep-learning curce, choose debian, ubuntu, mint, or whatever."
[07:10:13] <twnqx> "if you want to know everything, choose gentoo or LFS or whatever"
[07:10:17] <twnqx> this is my understanding
[07:10:28] <twnqx> and i made my choice for myself, not for anyone else
[07:11:03] <twnqx> and obviously i am surrounded by, or surround myself with, people who make the same choice
[07:11:30] <twnqx> but i still do not see what you are argueing against
[07:11:56] <carabia> against the point of just settle in, you'll be alright.
[07:12:29] <twnqx> wow
[07:12:38] <twnqx> you could have said that from the beginning
[07:12:39] <carabia> your overly-complicated saving-your-sorry-ass line should really be: choose whatever you're comfortable with.
[07:12:44] <twnqx> because yes, i will totally agree with that
[07:12:58] <twnqx> immediately, without negotiating
[07:13:40] <carabia> < twnqx> i have said that i disagree with your argument about productivity, since i believe that once you settled in, the productivity is the same
[07:14:05] <carabia> there's really no point in going at this cause you keep moving the goalposts every 10 lines of written text.
[07:14:34] <twnqx> yes. settling in did not refer to gentoo in particular, but to whatever you choose. i am sorry to have phrased that in a way you misunderstand that.
[07:15:19] <twnqx> people who have no interest in what's underneath won't settle in with gentoo, in particular.
[07:17:45] <carabia> I know, and that's why I wanted to point out that you need to base your arguments with such pretenses if there are any. Otherwise they are moot.
[07:18:56] <twnqx> i am afraid you did not drive your point home with enough such pretenses yourself, as it obviously took hours for me to get what you were after.
[07:20:07] <carabia> I am afraid you didn't really make an effort to do so, seeing the rebuttals of "but I do want to know my system!"
[07:20:10] <twnqx> but thanks, i'll try to remember this for the next time
[07:21:26] <twnqx> no, i took your arguments in the opposite way you took mine. with no direct link to anything, i supposed them to be universal.
[07:21:57] <twnqx> and thus, of course, i wanted to point out that they are not universal, as i was personally in conflict with that universal truth
[07:22:35] <carabia> my arguments were trying to be as objective as possible. Yours were trying to be more of the subjective kind, as stated in what you just said.
[07:22:39] <twnqx> well. i assume this is now cleaned up. i'll try to remember that sometimes, i need to make clear when switching from a particular instance to the global space.
[07:23:21] <carabia> At no point was I trying to point out a single individual or a /particular/ interest he or she might have.
[07:23:37] <twnqx> there are points where there is not one single correct choice, where objectiveness doesn't hold up for humanity because people are different
[07:24:42] <twnqx> objectivity? hm, not having english as your native language is complicated at times
[07:25:02] <twnqx> ah, the latter.
[07:25:13] <twnqx> or even both, according to my dictionary...
[07:27:07] <carabia> I guess that's a way to put it, but let me fix that for you... s/different/stupid
[07:28:25] <twnqx> while i generally tend to agree with this sentiment, i would not apply it here. so we should agree to disagree again.
[07:32:33] <twnqx> (i am also not sure if i should be offended by the possible implication of "people who do not agree with my choice must be stupid", but i'll just ignore that)
[07:33:32] <carabia> You're still at it?
[07:33:58] <carabia> That's completely not what I said, and even then NONE of the arguments i presented there had any empirical basis to them.
[07:35:21] <carabia> my (or your) choices are irrelevant to the subject at hand, you still haven't understood it.
[07:36:29] <carabia> what can i say, it's as if i'm talking to a brick wall, i'm done with this
[07:36:32] <twnqx> i was referring only to <carabia> [...] s/different/stupid
[07:37:17] <carabia> i know what you were referring to. and it's completely not what it meant. I guess that english-not-as-first-language is hampering your reading comprehension greatly, or then again just playing stupid and taking it out of context
[07:37:24] <carabia> either or, i'm done
[07:52:07] <_ami_> pwillard: yo :)
[07:53:25] <pwillard> :-P
[08:02:53] <sabor> _ami_: did you write your kernel module usb blink led for a specific project?
[08:03:04] <_ami_> sabor: yes
[08:03:05] <sabor> nice work btw.
[08:03:24] <_ami_> thanks, it was needed to learn the basics.
[08:04:39] <_ami_> I tried linux kernel programming 6 months back.. i find difficulty in understanding the electronics stuffs involved (spi, gpio, i2c etcs..). then i start learning arduino.. and then moved to avr.
[08:04:46] <_ami_> Now it all makes sense to me.
[08:05:01] <sabor> hehe
[08:05:22] <_ami_> feels like Neo of movie martix. i could see whats going on.
[08:05:50] <sabor> yeah, hardware is something you have to play with to really understand
[08:05:56] <_ami_> True.
[08:06:04] <Jartza> and low level, and buses
[08:06:17] <Jartza> like, well, those basic buses like spi and i2c. and gpio of course, like _ami_ said
[08:06:28] <Jartza> and also maybe parallel buses and such
[08:07:22] <_ami_> sabor: this is the link
https://github.com/amitesh-singh/ldd/tree/master/usb/usb-blink-led
[08:07:33] <_ami_> both firmware and driver code.
[08:07:50] <_ami_> Jartza: indeed, it is.
[08:07:51] <sabor> yeah, i saw it
[08:08:30] <sabor> the avr code looks very small, amazing compared to what's needed for the kernel module
[08:09:06] <twnqx> well, the avr itself doesn't need as much abstraction
[08:09:26] <sabor> true
[08:10:18] <_ami_> the complexity of driver depends upon how you want to expose the APIs to userspace.
[08:10:22] <_ami_> like
https://github.com/amitesh-singh/ldd/tree/master/usb/usb-gpio2
[08:10:30] <_ami_> controlling same led via GPIO pins
[08:10:32] <pwillard> AVR is the "git-r-done" of computing devices...
[08:12:50] <sabor> so now you can control that LED from userspace?
[08:17:25] <_ami_> sabor: yes
[08:18:05] <_ami_> echo 1 > /sys/class/gpio/gpio<N>/value --> LED ON
[08:18:09] <_ami_> 0 for off
[08:18:16] <sabor> very cool
[08:18:53] <_ami_> now i am trying to do that with lower level kernel class which is platform_driver/platform_device.
[08:19:02] <_ami_> platform_* is for SOC chips
[08:19:24] <twnqx> only soc? i thought it was also boards?
[08:19:37] <twnqx> or if i am wrong, tell me if you dig up those parts
[08:19:57] <_ami_> twnqx: it was primarily for SOC chipps
[08:20:02] <twnqx> i was looking into i2c/spi topology stuff once
[08:20:05] <sabor> what's the advantage of that lower lavel?
[08:20:07] <_ami_> but it was abused
[08:20:11] <_ami_> heavily
[08:20:33] <twnqx> and it looked to me that at some point e.g. i2c bridges/switches were mapped for loading from there, as there is no autodetection
[08:20:40] <_ami_> twnqx: one sample i wrote for this concept.
[08:20:41] <_ami_> https://github.com/amitesh-singh/ldd/blob/master/platform/custom/custom.c
[08:20:51] <_ami_> platform is for custom chips..
[08:21:11] <_ami_> which does not exactly fit into linux driver design
[08:21:18] <_ami_> btw, brb!
[08:21:39] <twnqx> i see
[08:34:04] <_ami_> twnqx: yes, true. there is no autodetection for i2c, spis..
[08:58:56] <_ami_> twnqx: one q regarding raising patches in linux-kernel.
[08:59:53] <_ami_> e.g. say i got some fix for gpio. i checked 'MAINTAINERS' file. linux-gpio mentors name are mentioned there.
[09:00:18] <_ami_> so i need to send the patch to linux-gpio@.. maintainer1@.. and maintainer2@..
[09:00:33] <twnqx> first thing, make sure you use git to send the patches
[09:00:41] <_ami_> do i need to cc GregKH and linux-kernel@..
[09:00:49] <twnqx> and i'd only send it to the mailing list (linux-gpio@)
[09:00:51] <_ami_> twnqx: yeah, that part i know
[09:01:18] <_ami_> twnqx: yeah.. i only emailed to linux-gpio@ and maintainers.
[09:01:22] <twnqx> maybe CC the maintainers, but not neccessarily, rather mailing list only first, and ping with CC if there's no reaction
[09:01:47] <_ami_> but i see people sending emails to greg and linux-kernel@
[09:02:29] <twnqx> not everyone does the right thing
[09:02:51] <_ami_> twnqx: ok, thanks. just wanted to be sure if i am doing right. :)
[09:02:58] <twnqx> there are patches i've sent to linux-kernel, but not if there's a dedicated maintainer group
[09:03:14] <twnqx> normally, those maintainers have separate trees, and send pull requests to linus
[09:03:20] <_ami_> yes,
[09:03:35] <twnqx> e.g. my graphics subsystem patches went that way
[09:03:50] <_ami_> i did git clone linux-gpio repo.
[09:04:29] <twnqx> some stupid isapnp blacklist stuff i sent straight to lkml when i couldn't use my laptop's softmodem because the serial driver mistook it for a regular serial port :P
[09:04:41] <_ami_> :P
[09:05:39] <twnqx> luckily the days of softmodems are also numbered
[09:05:51] <twnqx> last i used one was a strange hotel in saudi arabia
[09:06:05] <twnqx> where you needed dial-up, internally to the hotel, for internet access
[09:06:12] <twnqx> THAT was strange.
[09:08:32] <_ami_> my learning was about knowing that lkml only allows plain-text email.
[09:10:37] <_ami_> twnqx: wow.. people still use modem. :P its like dinosaur age thing.
[09:10:57] <twnqx> that was long ago
[09:11:00] <twnqx> 2009 or so
[09:11:27] <_ami_> ah, ok
[09:13:04] <_ami_> twnqx: yesterday, we were discussing abt pulldown/up in rpi2 here with bss36504 and others.
[09:13:35] <_ami_> is it nice to have sysfs file for setting pulldown/up ctrl in linux kernel for gpios?
[09:13:54] <_ami_> i know not all chips support pulldown/up thing.. but rpi2 does it
[09:14:19] <_ami_> and people use wiringPI lib to enable/disable pulldown/up
[09:14:54] <_ami_> twnqx: what are the chances if maintainers accept this patch if i raise one in future? do you think it make sense?
[09:15:21] <twnqx> i haven't looked into it that much, but i guess i sounds usefull if you can use gpio from commandline anyway
[09:15:46] <_ami_> i start my electronics journey with atmel MCUs and i can't imagine GPIO infrastructure without pulldownup control.
[09:15:47] <twnqx> you could discuss that as question on the mailinglist as a proposal and offer to send a patch for it
[09:16:11] <_ami_> twnqx: Send email with [RFC] subject?
[09:17:03] <twnqx> for example, whatever is usual on that list
[09:17:19] <twnqx> i'll leave this here because i just saw it somewhere else:
http://asciiflow.com/
[09:18:12] <_ami_> nice one. thanks for sharing it.
[09:21:49] <bss36504> _ami_: I wonder if the lack of support comes from the apparent attitude that RPi is a linux machine first, microcontroller second?
[09:29:31] <_ami_> bss36504: may be!
[09:31:57] <_ami_> good point though
[09:32:31] <bss36504> Which is why it irritates me when every third project on hackaday is "Man Straps RPi to drone", "Man Straps RPi to lights", etc. when there are much much better options out there. It's become the arduino for linux people :P
[09:32:50] <_ami_> :)
[09:34:13] <_ami_> bss36504: blinking an led using rpi2 is still in my TODOs :P
[09:35:07] <bss36504> Well obviously you have to start somewhere, but I'm just sayin, there are much better controllers, even ones that run linux, than an RPi when it comes to physical interaction.
[09:35:42] <_ami_> bss36504: rpi got more hype in media and everywhere.
[09:35:55] <bss36504> Just like arduino did
[11:47:26] <pwillard> rpi is still a somewhat crappy microcontroller but a great ethernet card ;-P
[11:48:04] <cehteh> eh?
[11:48:19] <cehteh> the ethernet is internally connected via USB which sux balls
[11:52:46] <pwillard> still way better than an ethernet shield on a UNO
[12:13:06] <cehteh> pwillard: thats a joke :D
[12:14:38] <pwillard> in the early days... an arduino ethernet shield cost more than a RPI... so I started using the RPI as an ethernet interface for the arduino... I still do it.
[12:16:40] <pwillard> No more making crappy web pages limited by available AVR memory... I could make web pages with sensor data from AVR with PHP, and Javascript backed by Mysql... a perfect marriage.
[12:17:27] <pwillard> Some would argue that the RPI could do the direct data collection... but the AVR is still better suited to it
[14:08:26] <sebus> I was wondering why poweroff-gpio didn't work on my sam9g25.. meanwhile at91-poweroff driver was messed in system. Huh...
[20:08:17] <nonasuomy> Can someone tell me if anything stands out here for this encoder debouncer from the original schematic
http://imgur.com/a/bJXl4 schematic
http://imgur.com/ZWg7Jo5
[20:08:47] <nonasuomy> I setup the perfboard like the first link
[20:09:31] <nonasuomy> but alls I get is 1,0,1,0 doesnt seem to encrease but it worked fine on the breadboard like that.
[20:10:03] <nonasuomy> feels like its only registering one of the encoders pins
[20:29:24] <Casper> nonasuomy: what is the goal of that... contraption?
[20:30:05] <Casper> wait that ain't a pot...
[21:26:57] <rue_house> hmm
[21:27:14] * rue_house draws it ouy
[21:27:47] <rue_house> oooh its an encoder
[21:30:20] <rue_house> dealing with the noise on those is really hard
[21:32:03] <rue_house> timing is still a bit lop sided, but its better
[21:50:43] <nonasuomy> Casper to debounce the encoder
[21:51:41] <nonasuomy> I got it working seemed to have a short between some solder joints on the perfboard :/
[21:51:58] <nonasuomy> sat there scrapping between them all for a while
[22:10:37] <nonasuomy> I need it to work like 10 feet away from the uC hopefully it will work like that
[22:10:58] <nonasuomy> going to use some ethernet cable (twisted pair)
[22:10:59] <Tom_L> just use a schmitt trigger and be done with it
[22:11:41] <nonasuomy> schmitt trigger? how does that work for a rotating object?
[22:12:15] <Tom_L> trips to a logic level when some input level is reached
[22:12:22] <Tom_L> cleans up the signal
[22:12:58] <Tom_L> a bistable circuit in which the output increases to a steady maximum when the input rises above a certain threshold, and decreases almost to zero when the input voltage falls below another threshold.
[22:13:38] <nonasuomy> oh your saying to use that with the encoder instead of the debouncing
[22:13:53] <Tom_L> yup
[22:14:00] <nonasuomy> I thought you meant just only use a schmitt trigger in replacement of the encoder
[22:14:20] <Tom_L> http://www.pcbheaven.com/wikipages/The_Schmitt_Trigger/
[22:15:53] <nonasuomy> well I will try this first if all else fails I'll test that out, thanks for the nfo