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[02:44:40] <_ami_> i wonder how does a bootloader/programmer knows the size of the application firmware in flash section? does it keep getting value from location 0x0000 till the value != 0xff? Am i right?
[02:45:59] <_ami_> does it keep getting value from location 0x0000 onward till the value != 0xff?
[02:57:24] <l9> why am i getting a could not find USBTiny device from avrdude
[02:58:39] <_ami_> l9: may be USBTiny is not getting detected ?
[02:58:42] <_ami_> using linux?
[02:58:47] <l9> yeah
[02:59:01] <_ami_> you could do dmesg -wH to check logs when u connect USBTiny
[02:59:45] <l9> found the AVRISP mkII
[03:00:44] <l9> http://pastebin.com/kac1yvkJ
[03:08:12] <l9> http://paste.ubuntu.com/18687397/ uhm
[03:18:32] <DKordic> _ami_: I would say that bootloader is only in the AVR. One way to do it is: software on PC will use bootloader to read whole FLASH. Find an address A such that for all (A2 < FLASH_END) (FLASH[A2] == ERASED) :) . Is that what You are asking?
[03:19:54] <_ami_> DKordic: you read my mind. i am adding support of reading flash section in the bootloader.
[03:22:29] <_ami_> DKordic: i just can't dump the whole flash data into some hex file? i think it needs to follow the intel hex guidelines. need to read abt intel hex files
[03:22:55] <_ami_> guidelines == format*
[03:23:26] * _ami_ reads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HEX
[03:26:33] <DKordic> _ami_:
https://github.com/vsergeev/libGIS
[03:28:43] <DKordic> That method will only check if it is erased. Does not mean it is not used!! It could be used for data, instead of EEPROM, and just happens to be erased at the time of reading.
[03:30:24] <DKordic> _ami_: Why on Urth do You need blasted Intel HEX!?
[03:30:48] <_ami_> DKordic: to dump the read data into a hex file
[03:41:34] <_ami_> DKordic: btw, weird naming convention uses for APIs names :P Read_IHexRecord
[03:42:24] <_ami_> this is what happens when someone is writing C and learning Cpp in parallel.
[03:58:20] <DKordic> :D What do You get with IHex!?
[04:38:02] <_ami_> Is learning asm for AVR really worth?
[04:38:55] <GeneralStupid> _ami_: even if you dont want to write ASM its worth understanding.
[04:39:19] <GeneralStupid> Sometimes you have to look through the generated assembler code -.-
[04:39:32] <GeneralStupid> or use inline assembler for some special tasks
[04:40:16] <GeneralStupid> (this information is not AVR related, its always usefull)
[04:45:32] <_ami_> okay! :)
[04:48:01] <_ami_> GeneralStupid: where can i get the inc files of different AVR chips?
[04:48:34] <_ami_> I have started learning by following
http://www.instructables.com/id/Command-Line-Assembly-Language-Programming-for-Ard/?ALLSTEPS
[04:48:48] <_ami_> it had a inc file for m328p
[05:20:47] <DKordic> _ami_: They should come with assembler, right?
[06:00:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> _ami_, did you get an answer to your bootloader question earlier?
[06:01:08] <_ami_> DKordic: i am on linux, and installed avra
[06:01:54] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: not exactly but i think i get it though. but your inputs/help is welcomed too. :D
[06:04:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> generally the bootloader doesn't know how big the flash section is...
[06:04:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> your host side sends commands and data to the bootloader and it just follows those commands and writes data to flash.
[06:05:35] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: i want to read the firmware code via bootloader.
[06:06:03] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: basically trying to emulate what avrdude ... -U flash:r:fm.hex:r does
[06:07:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> aahh..ok
[06:07:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> then you are correct...look for repeating 0xff
[06:07:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> when flash is cleared it is set to all ones.
[06:08:33] <_ami_> okay,
[06:10:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> often a bootloader will write a block then read and verify before going on to the next block.
[06:11:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> that way it can just verify that block from existing data and not have to download the data a second time to verify.
[06:15:39] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: bootloader does that by comparing checksums? checksum (what have been written into the PAGE section) ==
[06:15:56] <_ami_> checksum (present at last byte of hex file)
[06:16:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> can use the checksum too.
[06:16:40] <_ami_> checksum (what have been written into the PAGE section) == checksum (present at last byte of hex file) ==> then page has been successfully written.
[06:16:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> the bootloaders I've written do write/verify block by block.
[06:16:47] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: nice!
[06:17:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> now, if the data got there wrong, there's a problem.
[06:17:31] <Lambda_Aurigae> but you could check that data before writing it to flash with a checksum.
[06:17:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> as I recall, the checksum in a hex file is just for the hex file.
[06:18:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> you would have to convert that read flash back to a hex file format to recreate that checksum.
[06:18:27] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: ah, yes
[06:18:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it is possible that the checksum in the original doesn't match what is read back.
[06:19:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> a hex file does not necessarily define the data in order from start to end of the flash section.
[06:19:06] <_ami_> e.g. :0300300002337A1E => The sum of the decoded byte values 03 + 00 + 30 + 00 + 02 + 33 + 7A = E2. The two's complement of E2 is 1E, which is the checksum byte appearing at the end of the record
[06:19:11] * _ami_ source: wiki
[06:19:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> you can actually have data out of order in a hex file.
[06:19:23] <_ami_> i got ur point
[06:19:42] <_ami_> Lambda_Aurigae: is your bootloader code present on github?
[06:19:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> I've built hex files by hand just to test putting things out of order.
[06:20:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> no. It's mostly on a non-connected computer in the workshop.
[06:20:22] <_ami_> k
[06:20:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> my work is done out there, in a shop across the street, without mains power or internet access.
[06:21:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have a generator and wifi feed over there when the generator is running.
[06:23:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> https://www.chip45.com/avr_bootloader_atmega_xmega_chip45boot2.php
[06:23:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> check that one out.
[06:23:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> I think there's source for it.
[06:24:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> autobaud and accepts hex file directly.
[06:25:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> duh..nevermind..they sell the source.
[06:25:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> blah.
[06:25:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it was so promising too.
[06:26:38] <_ami_> yeah, 23,80 Euro :P
[06:26:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> https://sourceforge.net/projects/kavr/?source=navbar
[06:26:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> there's the one I was looking for!
[06:28:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> it doesn't autobaud but it does accept a hex file right through a terminal or serial port connection.
[06:28:25] <_ami_> thanks. i like one file project. easier to understand.
[06:29:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> even includes makefile and everything you need.
[06:29:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> should work for most atmega chips..
[06:29:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> not sure about attiny as it uses the usart
[06:37:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> time to go make some lunchies.
[09:32:47] <l9> anyone wanna take a crack at it? what the hell is happening with the programmer and why?
[09:33:17] <l9> http://pastebin.com/PfHxPeKC
[09:43:34] * WormFood doesn't open pastebin.com
[09:44:07] <WormFood> yeah, I just checked again, and pastebin.com is still blocked in China.
[09:44:48] <WormFood> so l9, I won't be looking at it :P
[09:50:30] <l9> why block pastebin ?
[09:51:21] <WormFood> I don't fuckin' know, why don't you ask the Chinese authorities. They block every-fuckin'-thing. Seriously, it should be a crime to call what I have "internet access", because it only gives me a subset of the internet.
[09:51:55] <LeoNerd> I usually use pastie.org
[09:52:10] <WormFood> I haven't been able to login to my server, or reliably get email for over a month (I'm forced to use a vpn)
[09:52:42] <WormFood> xkcd was blocked one day. Actually, probably a few days.
[09:53:31] <WormFood> Because they changed their theme, to look like a typical geocities webpage, as a tribute to geocities being shutdown. The GFW saw that, and I could view the first page I loaded, but everything after that was blocked.
[09:55:16] <WormFood> And Google is fuckin' blocked here, which greatly fucks me, because bing is absolutely horrible. An hour of searching on bing turns up nothing, and with google, what I want is on the first page. (what is funny, is "bing" in Chinese, means "sick")
[09:55:54] <liwakura> i made a thing today:
https://twitter.com/pastelchalk/status/751020963391758337
[09:55:59] <liwakura> just a git sticker
[09:57:10] <WormFood> I won't be looking at that git sticker either :P
[10:08:28] <DKordic> l9: USBTiny is the programmer? Is it using bitbanged USB or real hardware (~FTDI)?
[10:14:30] <_ami_> DKordic: l9, i think it is based on VUSB and its similar to USBAsp . it uses spi hw though
[10:15:07] <_ami_> for transmitting/recieving data to chip
[10:15:37] <bss36504> WormFood I forget, are you chinese living in china or just really unfortunate?
[10:16:04] <DKordic> l9: In that case, I bet the problem is in VUSB. I sugest to quickly fix it with a hammer ;) .
[10:16:32] <DKordic> bss36504: IIRC his is an American living in China.
[10:16:55] <LeoNerd> I'm surprised nobody's done a simple ATmega16U2-based programmer yet, instead of all that VUSB crap
[10:16:56] <bss36504> I thought so. That is unfortunate
[10:17:05] <bss36504> LeoNerd YES.
[10:17:13] <LeoNerd> I've yet to find a single USB hub that my VUSB-based programmer actually works via
[10:17:22] <LeoNerd> Whereas, my PIC16-based Pololu one is *perfect*
[10:17:33] <bss36504> Or, yall could just buy an Atmel ICE. they cost literally $30 -.-
[10:17:53] <LeoNerd> I prefer my Pololu - it has a UART bridge onboard too :)
[10:17:56] <LeoNerd> Saves me a USB connection
[10:18:28] <WormFood> bss36504, I'm an American, living in China.
[10:18:33] <bss36504> Everyone will probably scoff but I happily use my Atmel ICE in Atmel Studio, on *gasp* /Windows/
[10:18:46] <_ami_> l9: you could reprogram the avr chip of usbtiny isp
[10:18:55] <WormFood> At microsoft, quality is job SP1
[10:19:02] <bss36504> No AVRDude or weird, third party programmers for me.
[10:19:14] <LeoNerd> Ugh.. Is it just me or does anyone else find avrdude's -c and -p are named backwards?
[10:19:19] <bss36504> Honestly I dont understand all the windows 10 hate. It's fine. It works well for me.
[10:19:24] <LeoNerd> I wanted -p for "programmer" and -c for "chip", but they're the other way around
[10:19:29] <_ami_> LeoNerd: yeah, same feeling here. :
[10:19:36] <LeoNerd> -p defines the chip type and -c defines the programmer. GAHHH
[10:20:04] <WormFood> bss36504, that is because you don't know computers well. Once you achieve a particular level of knowledge, you'd despise working with any Windows system.
[10:20:07] <_ami_> i do this mistake when i use avrdude after3- 4 days :P
[10:20:50] <_ami_> LeoNerd: raise a patch to avrdude :P for this change.
[10:20:55] <LeoNerd> Hah.. I doubt it
[10:21:02] <WormFood> bss36504, that's like saying you use a corn cob for toilet paper, and it works fine, so why change. I'm sure it's great, compared to nothing, but once you have real toilet paper, you'd never go back to using a corn cob again.
[10:21:09] <bss36504> WormFood wow that's a pretty broad statement to make about a stranger on the internet :P I am pretty darn good at computers, and I actually use a linux machine all day at work. I feel like the windows (10 especially) is the same type of fanboy-ism that Apple haters have.
[10:21:10] <LeoNerd> though sometime I would like them to implement HVSP over buspirate
[10:21:15] <_ami_> or shoot an email to their dev mailing list. Lets start the fight.
[10:21:18] <_ami_> :P
[10:21:20] <LeoNerd> Or ISP over ft232h
[10:21:52] <WormFood> bss36504, I automatically assume anyone that loves Windows, has no experience with computers, other than Windows.
[10:22:13] <LeoNerd> Eh.. Windows is fine as a game launcher
[10:22:17] <bss36504> I never said I loved it, just that it doesnt suck ANYWHERE near as much as what some people would say
[10:22:40] <bss36504> I've personally owned "all three"; windows, primarily, Mac, Linux.
[10:23:00] <carabia> i would like for wormfood to actually base these statements on something rather than just throwing them out there
[10:23:34] <bss36504> But for what I need a computer for, which is mostly browsing the internet and playing games, as well as programming and EDA using mostly windows and cross platform tools, it fits my needs well
[10:24:17] <_ami_> I got 2 LTC 1799 today from LT. problem is i don't have DIP adapter. so need to buy a SOT-23- 6 to DIP adapter. where to get this adapteR?
[10:24:22] <bss36504> Take it from a guy who had a mac for 6 years, booting to a VM to run one or two programs is way more inconvenient than not having linux.
[10:24:34] <_ami_> when i search, i found only SOP6 adapters
[10:24:36] <LeoNerd> _ami_: probably eBay? I tend to keep a stock of that kind of thing
[10:24:36] <WormFood> carabia, base them on experience? I fix windows, all the time.
[10:24:51] <LeoNerd> Actually, I have a handy little SOT-23-6 socket adapter for breadboarding :)
[10:24:53] <bss36504> _ami_:
https://www.google.com/search?q=SOT-23-+6+to+DIP&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
[10:24:55] <carabia> as in, you never fix any gnu systems? Gimme a fucking break
[10:25:00] <WormFood> carabia, I honestly can't use Windows. It's far too fuckin' frustrating.
[10:25:17] <WormFood> Windows is easy to learn, but hard to use. Linux is hard to learn, but easy to use.
[10:25:38] <carabia> even arrogant mr. torvalds agrees what a royal fucking pain it is to develop software for "linux"
[10:25:43] <WormFood> Of course, I fix "gnu systems". But not like I have to fix fucked up Windows shit.
[10:25:45] <carabia> because you have to package it for 10 million distros
[10:25:56] <carabia> or, then you include x version of libs in your package
[10:25:59] <WormFood> You don't have to do shit.
[10:26:04] <_ami_> bss36504: thanks ,
[10:26:06] <carabia> which makes it grow in size and is still a fucking pain
[10:26:07] <WormFood> That is your choice to support those distros
[10:26:26] <carabia> yeah, but the field's too fragmented to grasp a target group
[10:27:01] <carabia> and the problems in foss-developing, that you fanboys never admit
[10:27:05] <WormFood> Most distros work with some other package system.
[10:27:14] <WormFood> That is a problem you just created.
[10:27:23] <carabia> no, it really isn't
[10:27:25] <WormFood> You, as a developer, do not need to support every distro out there.
[10:27:55] <WormFood> If you feel compelled to support your software on every distro out there, then that is your problem.
[10:27:58] <carabia> distros have a million different versions of a million different programs. Your software most likely depends on a lot of them. Get broken.
[10:28:35] <WormFood> You're talking about random stuff, you need to be more specific.
[10:28:47] <WormFood> You mean, if you're using shell scripts?
[10:28:51] <carabia> Not random. In general.
[10:28:54] <WormFood> or calling program X from your program?
[10:29:00] <WormFood> no, it's not "in general"
[10:29:26] <carabia> Yeah, it actually is. And your arguments are more on the random-side of things, basing arguments for "windows is shit" on wiping your ass with corn cobs. Okay.
[10:29:30] <WormFood> You're talking about issues with developing software for platform X, and you're just making up stuff, if you can't be specific.
[10:29:47] <WormFood> If you only know Windows, you might think it's great.
[10:29:55] <WormFood> I have fixed Windows for a living.
[10:30:11] <carabia> I've been using nixes for over 10 years
[10:30:15] <WormFood> It is a shitty, poorly designed system. Don't get me wrong, they've done some wonderful things.
[10:30:17] <carabia> And i still wouldn't want it as a desktop.
[10:30:26] <WormFood> I've been using nixes since the 1980s
[10:30:44] <carabia> Good for you, then
[10:30:46] <WormFood> And, I'm not joking, when I say, I honestly can not use Windows as a desktop to do real work.
[10:31:09] <WormFood> For playing games, and dicking around, it's fine, but if I want to do real work with my computer, I'm finding myself constantly at odds with Windows.
[10:31:14] <carabia> Well, it's a question of preferences too, and a huge question on peripherals aswell.
[10:31:25] <bss36504> WormFood: constitutes "real work"?
[10:31:25] <carabia> WormFood, give me an example, please.
[10:32:01] <WormFood> I use Windows, when I need to use specific software, that doesn't have a Linux version, which is very and far between. Mostly software for dealing with specific hardware.
[10:32:17] <carabia> No, this is again in the random bullshit -region.
[10:32:49] <carabia> Examples of said "real work", and problems associated with windows?
[10:32:53] <WormFood> "real work" means something that if I get interrupted on, it takes me 5 minutes to get back into the flow of things. It can be anything, like programming or writing something (documentation perhaps)
[10:33:16] <carabia> This still doesn't really say anything.
[10:33:18] <_ami_> carabia: real problem with windows is that it does not seem powerful to developers.
[10:33:23] <WormFood> fuck! Windows can't even delete files well.
[10:33:49] <_ami_> developers like to control things... and windows does not give that to them. that is why its SHIT
[10:33:59] <_ami_> to developers atleast .
[10:34:22] <carabia> _ami_, developers like to focus on their work, not fucking around with their platform.
[10:34:42] <carabia> I am still baffled as to WormFood not being able to provide an example
[10:34:46] <_ami_> carabia: lol, :P
[10:35:03] <WormFood> I'll give you an example. I delete a directory. Windows asks if I'm sure. I say "yes", delete this directory. 1/2 way through, it stops, and it says something like "this is an executable, if you delete it, this program may not work anymore"...right, as if it'd still work after you deleted 1/2 of it's files. So, I click the box, and says "yes to all", and click yes....and it fuckin' STOPS AGAIN!, asking me if I'm sure I want to delete this xxx file , and it
[10:35:04] <WormFood> goes on.
[10:35:55] <WormFood> _ami_, windows isn't shit because of that. It's shit because it's fuckin' designed for retards that are too dumb to know how to use a computer, and needs the computer to hold their hand every step of the way.
[10:35:57] <carabia> I'm pretty sure you're doing something wrong. And I fail to understand how this will delay you by five minutes when "programming or writing something (documentation perhaps)"
[10:35:58] <_ami_> carabia: i give u one example. i was working on vusb lately and i made a avr based usb devices which worked very well on linux.. and when i tried to run it on window.. then windows was shitting over me.
[10:36:25] <WormFood> carabia, dude, I've tried to use Windows before. I'm not a fuckin' retard. I don't need my computer to protect me from myself.
[10:36:29] <carabia> _ami_, and I'm pretty sure that was a driver issue, not a windows issue.
[10:36:50] <WormFood> I can't do a LOT of shit with Windows, easily.
[10:36:56] <_ami_> carabia: hv u ever installed a non-signed driver by MS to windows?
[10:37:24] <carabia> _ami_, yeah I have
[10:37:34] <_ami_> carabia: no, it was not driver problem.. i had the drivers .. but windows did not allow me to install it easily.
[10:37:50] <WormFood> for i in *\ * ; do mv "$i" `echo "$i"|sed 's/ /_/g'`` ; done <-- how to do this under Windows, without installing a special program?
[10:37:53] <_ami_> you know the pain of installing this type of driver on windows.
[10:38:00] <carabia> Alright, if you really want to talk about hardware support on linux
[10:38:06] <carabia> You really gotta be shitting me
[10:38:37] <WormFood> Windows is easy to learn, but it sure as fuck isn't easy to use.
[10:38:45] <_ami_> indeed.
[10:38:50] <WormFood> I just renamed 300 files in a matter of seconds.
[10:38:54] <carabia> WormFood, you can use batches, to an extent. However, a marginal application in any sense
[10:39:18] <WormFood> Windows is designed to be a GUI. The whole design philosophy of Windows is shitty.
[10:39:29] <_ami_> carabia: you know how shit are batches files.
[10:39:30] <carabia> You could write that in a few lines of c and have mingw/gcc. Go. ";D"
[10:39:39] <carabia> Marginal applications, as said.
[10:39:40] <WormFood> Windows was originally designed, with the intent that there is only one person using the computer.
[10:40:07] <carabia> WormFood, and for your work computer you want exactly how many people using it?
[10:40:19] <WormFood> Windows has a boat load of fuckin' patches on patches. It's not a system that was well thought out in the beginning, like unix was.
[10:40:31] <WormFood> carabia, You don't get my point at all
[10:40:32] <carabia> Hahaha
[10:40:35] <WormFood> Windows does this now
[10:40:39] <WormFood> this shit was added on to windows
[10:40:45] <WormFood> it's a fuckin' patch, on a piece of shit
[10:40:53] <WormFood> and that broke a lot of software.
[10:40:59] <carabia> fuckin patches on patches, sounds a lot like *nix to me.
[10:41:16] <LeoNerd> I once had to maintain a patch-to-a-patch, within a revision control system
[10:41:23] <WormFood> I'm talking about patches to the main design of the system, not to fix a problem.
[10:41:29] <LeoNerd> So every time I committed a new patch-to-a-patch, I had to read the diff of it
[10:41:34] <LeoNerd> *three* columns of + and - symbols
[10:41:37] <LeoNerd> That was fun :)
[10:42:18] <carabia> WormFood, yeah, I agree on that. However that's a problem on a fundamental level, and does not directly affect your ability to "program or write documentation", nor will it delay you by five minutes in case of an interrupt.
[10:42:19] <_ami_> bss36504: i don't get those adapters in my country. WTF, tried both ebay and amazon.
[10:42:33] <bss36504> Sparkfun?
[10:42:37] <bss36504> What country?
[10:42:41] <WormFood> do this. Compare unix now, to unix 10 years ago. 20 years ago. 30 years ago. The basic design philosophies will be the same. Do the same thing with Windows. Just go back to Windows 3.1
[10:42:44] <_ami_> bss36504: India
[10:42:49] <carabia> _ami_, I'm sure you can get some off aliexpress.
[10:42:52] <carabia> or dx
[10:42:56] <carabia> should be close.
[10:43:01] <WormFood> carabia, you clearly don't understand how people work.
[10:43:08] <_ami_> carabia: its not on aliexpress :/
[10:43:14] <_ami_> just searched there too.
[10:43:21] <WormFood> When you're deep in through, interruptions that are too long, will derail your train of thought.
[10:43:23] <carabia> WormFood, in conclusion, I believe this is a prejudiced distaste for microsoft, windows or both. And yeah, I do know how people work.
[10:43:51] <WormFood> It takes more time for you to get your mind back into your work, at the same level as before you were interrupted. This is not a computer thing, but a people thing
[10:43:53] <carabia> And it's no offense really. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
[10:44:16] <_ami_> carabia: there is one.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10pcs-SOT23-to-Dip6-Adapter-PCB-SOT-23-6-Brand-new-original-goods/2042995022.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.42.mMucg3&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_0,searchweb201602_4_10037_10017_407_10033_406_10032,searchweb201603_1&btsid=d1df384a-8b22-45b4-8c5e-18f3843110f3 but too costly. 20 dollars for 10 pcs
[10:44:21] <WormFood> I know this, because faster computer make people more productive, because they don't have to wait so long as to lose their train of thought.
[10:45:04] <carabia> _ami_, $12 (w/o shipping) is quite a bargain for smd-adapters
[10:45:09] <bss36504> _ami_: Well if you're good at soldering you can put a SOT23 on perf board.
[10:45:10] <carabia> $1.2 a piece.
[10:45:27] <LeoNerd> If you have some kynar wire you should be able to deadbug it
[10:45:28] <WormFood> carabia, dude, I honestly tried to use Windows, and I'm very serious when I say it so too hard to use. Don't misunderstand that statement, because if you look at it, it's actually a valid complaint. Windows IS easy to LEARN, but it is NOT "easy to use"
[10:45:33] <_ami_> bss36504: not that good. but i shall try
[10:45:49] <carabia> WormFood, you don't have to justify anything to me.
[10:45:53] <LeoNerd> I.e. glue the chip, upside-down onto stripboard or smilar, then use somehing like 28 or 30awg kynar wire to bond each of the legs to stripboard pins
[10:46:08] <LeoNerd> I've done that for SOT-23, SOIC8,... even some 0603s before
[10:46:17] <WormFood> And, when I say, it's "not easy to use", just look back at how you rename 300 files in Windows, vs how I'd do it in Linux. (just change all the spaces to underlines)
[10:46:21] <LeoNerd> That said, an 0603 can just bridge tracks of stripboard directly :)
[10:46:29] <_ami_> LeoNerd: uploaded videos somewhere of your master class :D
[10:46:31] <_ami_> ?
[10:46:38] <LeoNerd> _ami_: ?
[10:46:39] <carabia> WormFood, that can be done from the win shell quite easy.
[10:46:50] <bss36504> LeoNerd: I think you can even bridge connect SOTs on 0.1" perfboard. Don't quote me, but I think I did it once
[10:47:00] <WormFood> carabia, since when?
[10:47:03] <bss36504> No wire needed, that is
[10:47:04] <WormFood> I ditched Windows in '99
[10:47:09] <_ami_> i meant.. did u record this work and uploaded somewhere on youtube?> LeoNer^
[10:47:13] <_ami_> LeoNerd: ^
[10:47:15] <carabia> Since, a long time.
[10:47:20] <bss36504> Ah yes, windows 99, the top of the line in windows technology
[10:47:22] <WormFood> I'm not going to invest any more time into learning microsoft's systems.
[10:47:32] <WormFood> I was running NT at the time.
[10:47:33] <bss36504> Microsoft has done nothing since then, youre right
[10:47:35] <LeoNerd> bss36504: If you angle it at about 45deg, you can make a SOT-23 fit nicely on stripboard, yah. That won't get you a SOT-23-6 or SOIC8 though
[10:47:39] <carabia> As i said, it sounds prejudiced distaste more than anything
[10:48:12] <WormFood> So, you're saying, if I suck with Windows, then for years and years, it'd be hell to use, and not, suddenly, they have a shell with the capabilities we've had for 30 years.
[10:48:20] <bss36504> I dont have any 23-6 at home, but i have a 23-5 and if i do it I'll post a pic
[10:48:32] <LeoNerd> _ami_: Oh, no. I'm not in the habit of filming random stuff and putting it online. If I was going to do that I'd photo my breakfast and post it on ..
[10:48:32] <_ami_> bss36504: thanks.
[10:48:44] <LeoNerd> damnit I forget what the name of that site is the kids use these days
[10:48:45] <carabia> everything is a hell to use when you approach it with a certain mentality.
[10:48:47] <_ami_> LeoNerd: :P
[10:48:53] <LeoNerd> The one with all the hipster grainy/blackandwhite filters
[10:48:57] <bss36504> Instagram, LeoNerd
[10:49:01] <LeoNerd> That's the badger!
[10:49:21] <bss36504> You old fogey
[10:49:30] <WormFood> carabia, you don't even understand the words you're using. I'm not prejudice against windows, because I have experience with it. Prejudice is what you get when you don't know anything about it.
[10:49:36] <LeoNerd> Less of the "old" please - I'm 33
[10:49:37] <WormFood> and have made up your mind.
[10:49:45] <LeoNerd> ... I think. Am I 33? My birthday is soon, I should remember these tihngs
[10:50:03] <bss36504> I'm 22 and all about instagram and snapchat. They're just good fun
[10:50:10] <bss36504> I dont take pictures of my food though
[10:50:40] <WormFood> carabia, it's not because I think it is hell to use. It actually is hell to use. Come on dude, you can't do shit with Windows the way I can with Linux. Windows takes control from you. Linux gives you control. You have already made up your mind about me, and about how I use my computer, and labeled me as prejudice. Fuck off.
[10:50:43] <LeoNerd> In any case, no I'm not going to randomly show off all the "here's cool stuff I did" things on the internet; I don't honestly imagine anyone has time to look at it
[10:51:19] <carabia> WormFood, it's the only logical conclusion I can come to, the way you are putting things and not being able to give examples.
[10:51:23] <_ami_> LeoNerd: people do look youtube :
[10:51:30] <WormFood> carabia, I used Windows as my exclusive desktop for about 4 years. It's truly unusable for me.
[10:51:34] <WormFood> I have give you examples
[10:51:47] <LeoNerd> _ami_: sure; if I had anything I felt would be interesting enough for other people, perhaps I would
[10:51:49] <LeoNerd> But I don't
[10:51:51] <WormFood> Windows can't even delete fuckin' files without asking you questions!
[10:51:54] <carabia> Both of which were completely unrelated to the problems you stated
[10:52:13] <bss36504> LeoNerd: My insta is mostly pictures of my motorcycle and landscapes haha. My friends dont even look at it that much but it's still fun
[10:52:16] <_ami_> WormFood: carabia: calm down guys ... not worth of fighting on OS war
[10:52:21] <WormFood> Jesus H. Fuck. I can't tell you how many times that's fucked me. I tell Windows to delete enough files, that I can have lunch. I come back from lunch, to find it stopped 2 minutes after I walked out the door.
[10:52:35] <carabia> I am sure you're doing something wrong. Whenever I'm deleting files, and you "yes to all", it does not ask you again.
[10:52:52] <carabia> That example is just merely more ridiculous than an actual problem. A "pet peeve"
[10:53:05] <WormFood> carabia, then maybe you can tolerate that shit, but my experience is "yes to all", doesn't mean yes to all other questions.
[10:53:15] <bss36504> _ami_ comes in to #avr like
https://49.media.tumblr.com/3488c2a69dfba2588ae1981c3352f8a6/tumblr_ny90i45yC91uy0s1qo1_400.gif
[10:53:32] <WormFood> I've had to click "yes to all" 3 times, to delete a directory
[10:53:43] <WormFood> not every directory
[10:54:11] <WormFood> You can't boot Windows from a hybrid gpt disk.
[10:54:22] <WormFood> I mean, I can, but Windows can't do it out of the box.
[10:54:38] <_ami_> bss36504: :P
[10:54:43] <WormFood> And how do you do something like "dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=8192 count=100"
[10:54:48] <WormFood> on Windows?
[10:55:20] <carabia> Writing zeros to disk?
[10:55:21] <_ami_> carabia: you got 10....9...8....
[10:55:24] <_ami_> ..
[10:55:37] <WormFood> I'm not interested in learning microsoft's closed-source software. I can't fix anything. Nothing can be imporoved, except by microsoft.
[10:55:48] <carabia> _ami_, you seem to me like a fanboy who actually has very little experience on any of this
[10:55:53] <WormFood> In short, Fuck Windows!
[10:56:04] <WormFood> carabia, you think everyone is a fanboy. You're a troll.
[10:56:11] <bss36504> So guys, I'm thinking of opening a salt mine, thought I'd start here. Who want's in?
[10:56:22] <_ami_> carabia: i work on opensource and my company pays me to do that.
[10:56:25] <carabia> WormFood, far from it. But you're basically blind to alternative approaches
[10:56:25] <LeoNerd> HOW I MINE FOR SALT?
[10:56:34] <WormFood> carabia, you're still a troll
[10:56:43] <carabia> WormFood, you're still an idiot.
[10:57:06] <_ami_> so i know many things about linux than u actually do. i just do avr stuffs as a hobby.
[10:57:13] <carabia> I have to still state it, none of this is of little importance for when you do your "real work"
[10:57:18] <WormFood> carabia, I'd venture to guess, I have far more computing experience than you do. I've been into computers since the 70s.
[10:57:39] <carabia> WormFood, then I'm completely surprised with your ignorance
[10:58:04] <WormFood> carabia, since you don't even understand how the human brain works, in relation to the things I'm talking about, I'm not surprised you think I'm an idiot. You don't know enough to know how much you don't know.
[10:58:20] <carabia> oh, ditto.
[10:58:27] <bss36504> LeoNerd: I was thinking we could start by mining all the saltiness in this thread.
[10:58:41] <bss36504> Alright guys, settle down
[10:58:42] <WormFood> carabia, doesn't change the fact, that you are still a troll.
[10:58:45] <carabia> and your human brain -example was based on a non-existant premise
[10:59:06] <carabia> of being interrupted when doing your real work. The reason of the interruption is still unclear.
[10:59:17] <WormFood> The interruption doesn't matter.
[10:59:35] <WormFood> Windows is driven by mouse clicks. It constantly interrupts the user with the most stupid things.
[10:59:35] <carabia> But the interruption must arise from somewhere. Jesus F. Christ
[10:59:53] <WormFood> And, when it comes from Windows, I have a problem with that.
[10:59:57] <carabia> Give me a legit example and I rest my case
[11:00:08] <WormFood> When I can't do my work, because Windows won't let me, then I get frustrated, and don't want to use it.
[11:00:22] <carabia> Just one fucking. Single. Legitimate. Example.
[11:00:24] <WormFood> And "won't let me", also falls into crashes.
[11:01:09] <WormFood> That was the thing that pushed me over the edge, and forced me to stop using Windows. 4 crashes in one day. Same hardware worked fine with Linux, so you can't say it was a hardware problem.
[11:01:10] <carabia> I can hear that "human brain" working really hard there
[11:01:23] <_ami_> Recent upgrade by MS on my windows 10 from 8 laptop fucked my wifi connection.
[11:02:05] <_ami_> i can't fix it or find solution since the code is closed source.
[11:02:06] <carabia> WormFood, alright, I can give you a counter-example
[11:02:15] <WormFood> You'll find no shortage of Windows 10 horror stories.
[11:02:26] <_ami_> the same problem on linux would be have been fixed way before.
[11:02:45] <WormFood> I'm suggesting to all my customers, to wait to upgrade to Windows 10, for at least a year, because now, it's more or less in beta.
[11:02:52] <carabia> Many many years ago, before the nouveau-drivers, if you wanted legitimate gpu-support on nvidia you used the closed source drivers
[11:03:06] <_ami_> WormFood: i did the mistake and i regret it. :/
[11:03:32] <WormFood> Microsoft does not fix security related problems with Windows, unless they're made public, but they do handover all that info to the federal government, so they can use it.
[11:03:43] <carabia> Said drivers toasted my card running idle. Not directly a fault within the linux-system itself. But when talking *nix, you cannot point a finger to a singular entity
[11:03:48] <carabia> single entity* rather
[11:04:24] <WormFood> If you notified Micosoft of a remote "root" level exploit (you know what I mean), in Windows 10, right now, and didn't make that info public, Microsoft would NOT fix that problem, unless you made that information public.
[11:04:25] <carabia> afterwards there were "fixes" to said drivers, but yeah too little too late.
[11:05:09] <WormFood> carabia, so, if the same thing happened on Windows, then what?
[11:05:14] <carabia> You're spitting out random stuff once again. Not directly related to what this discussion was originally about
[11:05:25] <carabia> WormFood, but it did not. And the drivers never had these issues.
[11:05:25] <WormFood> You're talking about closed source software, that really has nothing to do with Linux directly.
[11:05:46] <carabia> I know, but as said, linux is not a single entity, like windows is.
[11:05:51] <WormFood> So, hardware X died, because the company's driver didn't work right.
[11:06:04] <carabia> Bottom line, back then if you wanted accelerated X, you pretty much HAD to use the closed source drivers.
[11:06:07] <WormFood> Windows isn't a single entity either.
[11:06:17] <carabia> There was no open source alternative.
[11:06:29] <carabia> Which leads to hardware support, which is always inferior on a *nix system.
[11:06:31] <WormFood> Microsoft doesn't control everything in Windows. They use plenty of software from other companies.
[11:06:36] <WormFood> ALWAYS?!?!
[11:06:39] <carabia> always.
[11:06:41] <WormFood> That's pure bullshit
[11:06:50] <carabia> well alright, i give you backwards support.
[11:06:52] <WormFood> Who had the first SATA drivers?
[11:07:12] <WormFood> Linux was the first system to support sata when it was first released. I forget the details.
[11:07:23] <carabia> Perhaps, could check it up.
[11:07:28] <WormFood> And hardware that is designed under Linux, would most likely have Linux support first.
[11:07:58] <WormFood> it's just trolling to say Windows ALWAYS has better hardware support.
[11:08:13] <carabia> And then again, most commercial hardware always has windows drivers, whereas nix alternatives are so-so
[11:08:16] <WormFood> My old Canon printer, worked better under Linux, than Windows.
[11:08:40] <WormFood> I'm not joking. I had one particular pdf page I simply couldn't print under Windows. It'd miss over 1/2 the page (it was rather complex)
[11:08:48] <carabia> and sometimes drivers are written by third parties of which functionality is questionable at best
[11:08:55] <WormFood> But, I could print the same page on Linux, without problems.
[11:09:01] <WormFood> I'll give you that.
[11:09:08] <carabia> Probably "your old canon printer", but printers are a fucking pain under nix, in general.
[11:09:21] <WormFood> Sometimes the drivers in Linux are crap. But, the same is true of Windows.
[11:09:31] <carabia> And sometimes the drivers are just non-existant.
[11:09:38] <WormFood> And let me tell you, living in China has shown me no shortage of horribly shitty software.
[11:10:07] <WormFood> One of the most popular things I do to people's computers, is to "de-chinkify" it ;)
[11:10:30] <carabia> I'll give you points for legacy-support, being most likely better on the *nix side of things.
[11:10:38] <WormFood> Which usually involves backing up their data, and installing a new clean copy of windows, without all the Chinkware on it.
[11:11:47] <carabia> to fuck around, i could say that chinkware is not directly related to windows. But this discussion is really going nowhere
[11:11:50] <WormFood> I'm really, really pissed off with Canon. They tricked me into buying a printer, with absolutely no Linux support, because they claimed they support Linux, and other people said it works. It fuckin' doesn't work...at all. Won't even print a test page.
[11:12:11] <carabia> But yeah, I know it's irrelevant
[11:12:13] <WormFood> My point is, there are terrible drivers/software out there for every platform.
[11:12:25] <carabia> That's something we can agree on wholeheartedly
[11:12:31] <WormFood> neither windows, nor linux holds a monopoly on shitty software.
[11:12:35] <carabia> It's good to find common ground.
[11:14:44] <carabia> Oh and _ami_, I wouldn't really bother with a .1" adapter for sot23-5 or -6
[11:15:01] <WormFood> I think it's more accurate to just say "computers suck"
[11:15:23] <carabia> Haha, I hear you.
[11:16:28] <carabia> Soo... Has anyone used kicad?
[11:17:06] <LeoNerd> I use it all the time
[11:17:54] <carabia> how do you like it?
[11:18:38] <LeoNerd> Eh.. it's not bad
[11:19:04] <LeoNerd> Like prettmyuch every piece of software I have ever used and likely will use, it's missing some features I often think of and would like.. but the same can be said of *anything*
[11:19:19] <LeoNerd> The features that are there work nicely for the most part. I certianly like it a lot more than Eagle or any else in that crowd
[11:19:19] <carabia> any major lacks then?
[11:20:08] <carabia> I guess eagle strives with the maker-bs with the amount of parts-libraries available
[11:20:36] <LeoNerd> Eh.. *shrug* Yeah, but kicad has nice library editor stuff
[11:20:42] <LeoNerd> I tend to draw most of my own symbols and footprints anyway
[11:21:00] <LeoNerd> There are eagle importers for kicad but I still don't bother. It's not hard to just draw something
[11:21:39] <LeoNerd> One thing I would like in kicad but is a total pipe-dream as I doubt anyone else cares, is the ability to make a true "jumper" layer..
[11:21:57] <LeoNerd> I.e. a layer that I say I'll be putting insulated jumper wires in, so please *do* let me cross tracks over, becaues that will be fine
[11:22:06] <LeoNerd> I often use kicad to help me plan stripboard for one-off projects
[11:22:41] <LeoNerd> I use an inner copper layer to represent the stripboard and only place tracks horizontally; I place top-mounted components on front copper, and then I use back copper to draw any little kynar wire links I find I need
[11:22:55] <LeoNerd> Sometimes in reality I would just let two of them cross over; only kicad itself doesn't think I'd be able to
[11:26:48] <WormFood> I also use kicad, but I'm still learning how to use it to it's fullest potential. Now I'm learning how to use the PCB editor
[11:31:06] <_ami_> pooja
[11:34:51] <bss36504> LeoNerd: Why not just create a schematic symbol with no layout, and terminate it with appropriate holes on either side. Then you could just place your jumper holes wherever you wanted, and the netlist should remain consistent.
[11:35:10] <LeoNerd> huh?
[11:35:18] <LeoNerd> I'm talking about copper tracks on the PCB editor
[11:35:21] <LeoNerd> nothing ot do with schematic
[11:35:36] <bss36504> No I know what you want, but that's probably not going to happen so I'm offering an alternative
[11:36:30] <LeoNerd> I don't at all see how that would help
[11:36:37] <LeoNerd> I do't know at schematic time if I'll require that jumper
[11:36:47] <bss36504> There's also a bit of an ideological issue with what you want, in that layers that represent copper should be 1:1 with what the final board will look like.
[11:36:50] <LeoNerd> I add them late in copper layout time, whne I've got myself stuck in a corner with stripboard tracks
[11:37:38] <bss36504> Wait, you use it for stripboard layout? Like you dont even get them printed? So who cares, just use another copper layer
[11:38:06] <LeoNerd> http://home.leonerd.org.uk/local/screenie/stripboard-kicad.png
[11:38:11] <LeoNerd> ^-- here's a classic example
[11:38:29] <LeoNerd> yellow == stripboard tracks, red == front componets. Those two blue tracks are "back" layer jumpbers
[11:38:35] <LeoNerd> In this particualr example they don't have to cross over
[11:38:47] <LeoNerd> But sometimes I'd do a similar thing, where they would want to
[11:39:13] <LeoNerd> E.g. if I wanted to use a back jumpber to get MOSI out of the ISP connector down to pin 5 of the 'tiny85
[11:39:39] <LeoNerd> Rightnow, that jumper would be most direct just drawn as a straight line downwards, but it would have to cross over the reset jumper
[11:39:40] <bss36504> I guess I don't see the issue...Just draw those jumpers on yet another copper layer
[11:39:42] <LeoNerd> kicad won't let me
[11:39:51] <LeoNerd> Sure I could add -yet more- copper layers for more jumpers
[11:40:04] <LeoNerd> It gets silly after a while though :)
[11:40:15] <bss36504> Well yeah but so is using stripboard haha
[11:40:37] <LeoNerd> Wellyah; I only do it for oneoff little things
[11:40:38] <bss36504> Youre using a *PCB* tool to do something wonky, just use the other layers, silly
[11:41:39] <bss36504> You could even set up your stackup so the vias looked buried, then you could make the jumper layer stuff cross right over the top of them if necessary
[11:41:41] <LeoNerd> Incidentally, this was about as best as I could manage for a tiny85+ISP layout :/
[11:41:50] <bss36504> But it's just a documentation type thing, in the end.
[11:43:12] <l9> DKordic: its a avrispmkII usbtiny mkII lufa powered and i am starting too think it might be a good idea too smash it and get a new one... any suggestion on what too get?
[11:43:43] <bss36504> I9: Atmel ICE!
[11:43:52] <bss36504> drink the atmel Kool-aid
[11:44:45] <bss36504> l9: wait I guess you're L9 not i9. Silly sans-serif font...
[11:44:51] <l9> huh?
[11:45:09] <bss36504> I was trying to tag you but I got the first letter of your nick confused
[11:45:20] <l9> most do
[11:45:41] <l9> why isnt my programmer responding?
[11:54:02] <carabia> drink all the atmel kool-aid!
[11:54:07] <carabia> too bad waco koolaid had cyanide in it
[11:55:53] <l9> oh blody hell what a price on the programmer .... does it crap rainbows?
[11:56:21] <carabia> you can get it for around $35 without the box / cables
[11:56:31] <carabia> and the lines are broken out as .1" connectors
[11:57:39] <carabia> (iirc)
[11:58:05] <carabia> the ice3 or whatever
[12:01:58] <l9> cables and adapter board and evrything i should need, and i know it works
[12:08:27] <l9> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-Wave
[12:30:58] <WormFood> carabia,
http://blog.ninlabs.com/2013/01/programmer-interrupted/ read this to understand more about what I was talking about interrupting your train of thought. This article is specifically about programmers, but I expect their experiences would be similar to anyone else under a relatively high mental load.
[12:51:26] <_ami_1> are you guys gonna watch today's euro cup semifinal?
[12:53:41] <WormFood> not unless there are naked women driving the cars.
[12:53:52] <Casper> _ami_: I,ll answer by a question that I don't want an answer for: what is the euro cup? :D
[12:54:22] <_ami_> :D
[12:57:31] <Casper> and now, for the best question in the world! Will I be able to make a nice clean cut on concrete! One that is very straight and level! :D
[13:33:58] <doev> hi
[13:35:03] <doev> I have a simple setup, but the problem is, that all LEDs getting darker if I press a switch.
[13:35:53] <doev> All functions are working fine.
[13:36:22] <LeoNerd> Possibly power supply issues?
[13:36:39] <doev> Power comes from the ISP.
[13:38:02] <doev> But voltages is 1,75V before I press the switch and 1,67V after.
[13:38:31] <doev> The switch is connected to 0V and Pullup is aktivated.
[13:41:07] <doev> If I test with a batterie, there es a little fluktuation.
[13:53:05] <LeoNerd> ISPs aren't really supposed to provide much power
[13:53:44] <LeoNerd> Typically only enough to boot the chip to program it. *Proper* ISP6 isn't even supposed to supply power at all, but some often do
[13:57:04] <doev> I found out that 100Ohm before the switch do a good work.
[13:57:13] <doev> 100Ohm
[15:48:42] <Chillum> kick ass, I have my standalone atmega328 on my own board auto-resetting like a nano with a 100nf cap between reset and dtr
[15:49:03] <Chillum> I just push my ftdi board right into my 1x6 female header and hit upload
[15:52:40] <Tom_itx> the cap reset trick isn't the best idea
[15:52:45] <Tom_itx> but cudos anyway i suppose
[15:57:07] <Chillum> it is identical to what the nano does. My understanding is it is to create a consistent pulse when the software of the PC can't be the predictable in timing
[15:57:15] <Chillum> why is it not a good idea?
[16:03:24] <LeoNerd> Chillum: Yah; that's the usual method
[16:05:28] <bss36504> I've been tasked with looking into the possiblity of using an FPGA to talk to a custom DDR bus. The bus doesn't conform to any DDR memory standard, so does that mean I can't take advantage of the DDR capabilities? Or perhaps I just need to be more creative...
[16:07:48] <Tom_itx> it's good if you want that behavior but i prefer a hard reset
[16:27:40] <Chillum> it is a hard reset I thought, vs a soft reset
[16:27:47] <Chillum> a pulse is sent to the reset pin
[16:28:13] <Chillum> same as pressing the button, just more consistent in timing
[16:31:18] <LeoNerd> And most notably, controllable from the PC side
[16:38:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> Chillum, I agree with Tom_itx on the cap thing not being the best solution but whatever works....I just consider nothing that arduino does is really the best solution..at least nothing I've seen so far.
[16:38:24] <Chillum> really I should just break out an spi header
[16:38:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> I would do it with a cap, resistor, and transistor.
[16:38:32] <LeoNerd> I'm not -entirely- sure why even the cap is there
[16:38:42] <LeoNerd> You could just put DTR directly on RESET
[16:38:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> LeoNerd, it's a reset delay.
[16:38:51] <Chillum> it does not work without it, I know that much
[16:39:16] <Chillum> something to do with poor timing on the non-real time OS handling the dtr signal I think
[16:39:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> when DTR presents it is likely too fast for the RESET to hit fully.
[16:39:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> but there's enough current capability to charge the capacitor so it holds the reset longer than just the DTR pulse.
[16:40:23] <Chillum> do you mean they charge it with a series of pulses then let it drain?
[16:40:42] <Chillum> or a high current pulse create a longer lower current pulse?
[16:40:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> one pulse.
[17:11:24] <Jartza> allo
[17:13:40] <Casper> alloooooo
[17:15:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> jello
[17:15:17] <Jartza> 'sup?
[17:15:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> supper is cooking....meatloaf.
[17:15:40] <Jartza> nice
[18:57:59] <carabia> in soviet russia, supper cooks you
[19:06:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> good meatloaf..
[19:10:13] <eszett> hi
[19:10:20] <Tom_itx> mmmm ground up cow hidden in special flavorings
[19:12:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> we mix cow and pig
[19:12:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> along with onion and green pepper out of our garden.
[19:47:59] <eszett> someone with experience importing pcbs from china?
[19:48:17] <eszett> im calculating custom fees, etc.
[19:48:24] <eszett> china > germany
[19:48:45] <cehteh> how much?
[19:49:03] <eszett> 20 or 30 piecees, value will be above 150€
[19:49:18] <eszett> du sprichst doch deutsch oder?
[19:49:29] <cehteh> ja
[19:49:44] <eszett> wenn ich mal kurz deutsch schreiben darf, weil es ein wenig speziell ist das thema
[19:50:40] <cehteh> über ca 25Eur musste 19% mwst zahlen, über 104Eur (oder irgendwas in dem dreh) komt noch zoll drauf
[19:50:41] <eszett> unter 150€ fällt nur Mehrwertsteuer an, für Importe von China nach Deutschland. über 150 kommt auf den Typ Ware an, den man importiert. Für unbestückte Leiterplatten habe ich gehört fällt gar kein Zoll an, richtig? Soweit so gut
[19:50:54] <cehteh> zoll ist aber meistens wenig 4% oder so
[19:51:03] <cehteh> ja genau
[19:51:13] <eszett> ja schon aber man muss ja zum zollamt hin und der ganze kram
[19:51:26] <eszett> nun hab ich gelesen es gibt einen "trick" um den ablauf zu vereinfachen un dzwar
[19:51:31] <cehteh> wenn alles in einen gefütterten umschlag passt kommts meist auch ohne zoll aktion (und ohne mwst) durch
[19:51:46] <eszett> bei 30 pcb nich möglich ;-)
[19:51:55] <cehteh> weiss ja nicht wie groß die sind
[19:52:22] <eszett> 337mm*106mm. und zwar der trick ist, dass man den TARIC code für "unbestückte Leiterplatten" aussen mit zu der Empfängeradresse deklariert
[19:52:33] <eszett> also das hat einer im internet geschrieben ;-)
[19:52:33] <cehteh> jedenfalls is zoll kleinkram, mwst nerft ..
[19:52:53] <eszett> der TARIC code wäre, ich zitiere The commodity code for importing is 8534001100.
[19:52:57] <cehteh> gibt nen paar tricks, mit mehr oder weniger risiko
[19:53:13] <eszett> wenn man das macht, dann soll einen der zoll in ruhe lassen und man muss nirgendwo vorstellig werden
[19:53:20] <cehteh> aber die chinsesen schreiben selten drauf was man wünscht, verlass dich nicht drauf
[19:53:28] <eszett> ja aber ich kann mit denen reden
[19:53:37] <cehteh> kannste
[19:53:40] <cehteh> probieren
[19:53:46] <eszett> die von dem pcb house haben mir iummer freundlich per mail geantwortet
[19:53:50] <cehteh> meist sagen die jaja und machens doch nicht
[19:54:05] <eszett> die soll den Taric code mit draufschreiben und dann muss ich nur MwSt. zahlen und sonst nix
[19:54:11] <eszett> hrhr kann sein
[19:54:12] <cehteh> aber oft is dann auch standard $5 engineering sample oder so drauf
[19:54:39] <cehteh> dann is nichmal mwst fällig :D
[19:55:08] <eszett> hab nix gegen lügen, aber nicht wenns auffliegt, und das ist einfach unglaubwürdig dass in einem 2,5kg paket nur $5 enginerring sample drin is ;-)
[19:55:46] <cehteh> also angenommen 4% zoll bei 150Eur das sind ja nur 6Eur
[19:55:52] <eszett> ich bitte die, es richtig zu deklarieren
[19:55:58] <cehteh> wenn du geld sparen willst versuch die mwst zu vermeiden
[19:55:59] <eszett> ja, aber ..
[19:56:30] <cehteh> am besten dadurch das die chinesen das schon so derklariern das es ohne durchkommt, damit biste dann fein raus
[19:56:35] <eszett> bleiben wir mal beim zoll. Ich lasse mir das mit DHS schicken (ne gute alternative dazu bietet mein pcb house nicht an). und DHS verlangt für zollabfertigung 10€ extra gebühr
[19:56:47] <eszett> und was die Mehrwertsteuer betrifft lässt die sich nicht so einfach vermeiden
[19:56:57] <cehteh> dann *musst* du voll zahlen
[19:56:57] <eszett> weil das einfach ein schweres paket ist, und schwere pakete fallen auf
[19:57:22] <cehteh> weil wenn nen versender das macht geht alles 100% korrekt zu
[19:57:37] <cehteh> wenn du das nicht buchst musst zu zum zollamt und die dinger auslösen
[19:57:49] <eszett> wie würdest du denn so ein schweres paket ohne mehrwertsteuer durch den zoll kriegen?
[19:57:54] <cehteh> da kannste dann je nach laune noch bissl rumfeilschen
[19:57:59] <cehteh> schwierig
[19:58:23] <eszett> war schon mehrmals da von feilschen wollen die glaube ich nichts wissen
[19:58:31] <rue_house> ist nin spek deutch
[19:58:58] <rue_house> ich? ist?
[19:59:01] <eszett> rue we talk about custom commodity fee of importing PCBs from china to europe
[19:59:18] <rue_house> ja!
[20:00:10] <rue_house> ist spek sex deutch .... word...en...
[20:00:28] <rue_house> seben... oct...
[20:04:32] <rue_house> keine Sprachunterricht ?
[20:06:15] <rue_house> hallo?
[20:07:29] <rue_house> niemand will Rue Deutsch lehren...
[20:08:08] <cehteh> nope :D
[20:09:03] <rue_house> das ist nicht nett
[20:09:24] <rue_house> Bitte
[20:11:58] <rue_house> nur zwei hier verstehen Deutsch
[20:12:16] <rue_house> Ich k?nnte sagen, was ich will
[20:12:30] <rue_house> niemand wird wissen
[20:13:16] <rue_house> Ich werde mit Google stecken f?r immer
[20:14:03] <rue_house> so who has a cool project on the go?
[20:14:26] <cehteh> i am busy with other more manual things these times
[20:14:37] <cehteh> http://www.pipapo.org/cfprops/cfprops.html
[20:14:41] <cehteh> .. and next a frame :)
[20:16:24] <rue_house> no vacuum and bake?
[20:16:49] <cehteh> bake yes, but no vakuum ..
[20:17:08] <cehteh> i wish i had a vacuum pump, but $$$
[20:17:21] <rue_house> nono, vacuum cleaner
[20:17:31] <rue_house> ist close enough
[20:17:40] <cehteh> wont work for epoxy
[20:17:49] <rue_house> or use a tap vanturi
[20:17:56] <rue_house> venturi
[20:18:09] <cehteh> you have to keep it running until the resin is cured, else air gets sucked back in
[20:18:23] <cehteh> http://www.pipapo.org/cfprops/pics/20160613_012.jpg << my 'oven'
[20:18:23] * rue_house tries mashing the keyboard to see if the right words form
[20:18:34] <rue_house> you close the valve
[20:18:39] <cehteh> arduino, small pimped heater and cardbox
[20:19:01] <rue_house> ist nin too cold?
[20:19:09] <cehteh> nin?
[20:19:21] <rue_house> nine?
[20:19:28] <cehteh> nine?
[20:19:52] <rue_house> *sigh*
[20:19:56] <cehteh> that resin needs some temperature curves
[20:20:22] <rue_house> ja, not like 150c ?
[20:20:48] <cehteh> like curing 16h at 35°C .. then heat to 60°C with 5°C/h speed, keep 60°C for 12hours .. etc....
[20:21:02] <cehteh> at most i use about 70°C
[20:21:09] <rue_house> hmmm
[20:21:58] <cehteh> the oven can maybe go for 90°C as it is now, if i want more i need to put a bit more efforts into the heater (other fan, other mounts)
[20:22:11] <cehteh> but its pretty ok as it is now
[20:23:59] <rue_house> ist nin toaster oven
[21:45:17] <carabia> oh jawohl heil hitler und lebensraum panzerschreck sauerkraut ja european union
[21:45:47] <carabia> angela merkel bringst deutsches menschen $$$ auf die unionen jawohl
[21:46:04] <carabia> das ist gut.
[21:48:13] <Snert> I saw Angie naked when she was about 15.
[21:48:51] <Snert> you can tell in the pic that it really is Merkel.
[21:52:32] <carabia> ja ja sehr gut gesundheit jawohl schweinhund
[21:53:20] <carabia> rue_house kan nichts nein gesagt
[21:53:24] <_ami_> oh boy, i like avr asm more than anything. it does make sense more to me than x86 asm.
[22:33:29] <inflex> x86 asm is definitely quite ugly, mostly because it's an impressive hack around so many hardware compromises
[22:34:57] <Thrashbarg> it's based on the Intel 8080 from 1974, which is based on the Intel 8008 from 1972
[22:36:49] <Casper> inflex: maybe they will fix it with the 128 bits opcode set? :D
[22:38:17] <inflex> Itanium X2
[22:39:52] <Thrashbarg> the bit-ness of microprocessors seems to follow an exponential time scale, so 4-bit micros lasted about 2 years, 8-bit 5 years, 16-bit 10 years, 32-bit 20 years, 64 bit will be 50 years :P
[22:43:09] <Casper> maybe it will not really go past 64 bits too
[22:43:42] <Casper> unless something major come out, like true hollographic display
[22:44:25] <Casper> there is a limit in the quantity of mathematical operation that you can do... and huge numbers is kinda reached already
[22:50:50] <Mr_Sheesh> based on the 4004 from earlier
[22:53:06] <Thrashbarg> sort of, the 4004 is a completely different architecture
[23:05:31] <rue_shop3> carabia, "? night no ?"
[23:06:21] <rue_shop3> 64 bits isn't really speeding anything up
[23:06:29] <Thrashbarg> Wirth's Law
[23:06:48] <rue_shop3> "making the numbers larger wont really help"
[23:06:59] <WormFood> it depends on what you're doing. 64-bit does help a lot with what I do.
[23:07:17] <WormFood> vmware is a night and day difference between 32-bit and 64-bit.
[23:07:32] <rue_shop3> the 8 bit code runs better in a 64 bit vm?
[23:07:38] <WormFood> 32-bit vmware is painfully slow. 64-bit is much, much faster.
[23:07:45] <WormFood> I said it depends on what you're doing.
[23:07:55] <rue_shop3> I suspect its nothing to do with the 64 bits
[23:08:17] <WormFood> What do you think it is then? :P
[23:08:46] <rue_shop3> better code
[23:09:34] <Thrashbarg> software halves in efficiency every 18 months, compensating Moore's law
[23:09:52] <rue_shop3> unsigned long foo;
[23:09:52] <rue_shop3> foo = 'back';
[23:09:55] <rue_shop3> switch (foo) {
[23:09:55] <rue_shop3>
[23:09:55] <rue_shop3> case 'left':
[23:09:55] <rue_shop3> printf("going left\n");
[23:09:57] <rue_shop3> break;
[23:09:57] <WormFood> moore's law is bullshit.
[23:09:59] <rue_shop3>
[23:10:01] <rue_shop3> case 'rght':
[23:10:03] <rue_shop3> printf("going right\n");
[23:10:05] <rue_shop3> break;
[23:10:16] <rue_shop3> thats a use I'v found for 32 bits on avr
[23:10:18] <WormFood> It's not an observation. It's more like a clock that everyone follows.
[23:10:39] <Thrashbarg> WormFood: agreed, it's used as a benchmark for Intel to keep ahead
[23:10:48] <WormFood> It's not even a benchmark
[23:10:57] <rue_shop3> no comments on that code?
[23:11:02] <rue_shop3> rrrrrly?
[23:11:38] <WormFood> it was an observation at the time. Now they call it a law. It's not a law, it's simply an observation made a long time ago. Now they use it like a metronome, to pace things.
[23:11:44] <rue_shop3> on a 32 bit processor that 'string compare' in done in one cycle
[23:11:44] <Thrashbarg> WormFood: by benchmark I mean more of a rainbow they chase ...
[23:12:06] <WormFood> you misspelled "right"
[23:12:15] <rue_shop3> no, I made it 4 characters
[23:12:33] <rue_shop3> your not seeing the forrest for the bytes
[23:12:54] <Thrashbarg> unsigned long foo = four characters...
[23:12:59] <Thrashbarg> neat
[23:14:20] <Thrashbarg> I expect it'd be the same efficiency as an enumerated type
[23:15:09] <rue_shop3> its too bad tho, an unsigned long long long is too long for gcc :)
[23:15:18] <rue_shop3> it tells you so
[23:15:20] <WormFood> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1818276,00.asp "Forty Years of Moore's Law Hogwash" <-- this was written 10 years ago. So, that gives us enough time to see if what he said actually is right or not.
[23:15:47] <WormFood> " The entire semiconductor business appears to be fear-based, and nobody wants to get off the 18-month treadmill. "
[23:15:54] <Thrashbarg> heh
[23:16:26] <rue_shop3> ok, I need to write some kinda watchdog code, if no pulse in 16ms, panic
[23:16:38] <Thrashbarg> keep calm and panic
[23:17:47] <rue_shop3> anyone wanna code for money?
[23:18:08] <rue_shop3> and do I want to pay money just to be lazy and not code this adc project?
[23:18:31] <rue_shop3> I know what I dont want to do, I dont want to eat
[23:18:43] <rue_shop3> and I dont want to sleep
[23:19:12] <rue_shop3> I want to sit down, be able to forget the world exists, and focus on a project for as long as I want
[23:19:23] <rue_shop3> so sleeping, no eating, no pissing.
[23:19:31] <rue_shop3> just *focus*
[23:19:46] <rue_shop3> thats what I want
[23:19:59] <Thrashbarg> I want unlimited time and resources
[23:20:48] <rue_shop3> I prettymuch have that, I just lack time
[23:22:02] <carabia> rue_shop3, so logical step one is to hang around in irc
[23:29:33] <rue_house> I keep irc around to keep me from going stark raving mad
[23:29:52] <Thrashbarg> too late...
[23:29:54] <Thrashbarg> :P
[23:30:12] <rue_house> only cause I have to prove to aliexpress that I'm human again
