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[01:38:53] <Emil> Hey
[01:39:02] <Emil> I removed -e in avrdude
[01:39:14] <Emil> Is it the god damn fuses
[01:40:22] <Emil> Yes, you need to write the damn fuse
[02:20:08] <daey> did you ever see an atmega wear down due to repetitive flashing?
[02:21:29] <Emil> daey: nah
[02:21:57] <Emil> What's the MCUSR equivalent in atmega162?
[02:22:12] <daey> dunno i cant flash my 328p since yesterday anymore... fuses dont match. and other strange errors
[05:03:42] <liwakura> is there some sorf of convention that the last 2 bytes of the flash are the version of the bootloader?
[05:03:45] <liwakura> *sort
[05:05:00] <LeoNerd> Not that I'm aware of
[05:05:34] <liwakura> okay, then im gonna ignore it
[05:43:38] <cehteh> avrdude once counted the number of chip erases there, was a bad idea, i think that is completely removed now
[06:22:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> WormDude, there are two sets of code in there...one for gcc, one for iar...the gcc one has a makefile.
[06:48:58] <WormFood> Lambda_Aurigae, it'd be nice if they didn't fuckin' update it, without some indication that it isn't the same as what they had before.
[06:49:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/tree/master/hardware/arduino/avr/bootloaders/atmega8
[06:49:46] <WormFood> I noticed that with v-usb. The fuckers update their code, but the header still has the same date, and version, and copyright, and everything, but it's clearly not the same as what they published previously.
[06:49:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> however much I don't care for arduino, their bootloader has everything you need to build your own.
[06:50:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah...have seen that with v-usb.
[06:50:37] <WormFood> I can't figure out what fuckin' switches to set.
[06:50:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> LDSECTION = --section-start=.text=0x1c00
[06:50:47] <WormFood> The bootloader code I have, doesn't fuckin' work.
[06:50:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> that tells the linker where to put the program into memory.
[06:51:17] <WormFood> why address 0x1c00?
[06:51:58] <liwakura> 1 kb before RAMEND i guess
[06:52:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[06:52:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's for the atmega8 with 1K bootloader section
[06:53:34] <WormFood> I have an atmega88, so it's bootloader should be 0x0C00
[06:53:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> umm.
[06:53:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> bootloader is at the END of flash, not the beginning.
[06:54:46] <liwakura> 0x0C00 is not the beginning
[06:55:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> in the lower half anyhow.
[06:55:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> datasheet page 288, table 27-9
[06:55:47] <liwakura> is there a way to abuse the bootloader flags to dynamically relocate the interrupt tables?
[06:55:57] <liwakura> like, more than 2 interrupt tables
[06:55:58] <liwakura> or so
[06:56:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> boot reset address(boot start) can be 1f80, 1f00, 1e00, or 1c00
[06:56:23] <liwakura> but i guess thats set via fuses
[06:56:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> for 128, 256, 512, or 1024 words of bootloader.
[06:56:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> liwakura, you can set the interrupt table for bootloader then before jumping to your main program the bootloader can relocate the interrupt table.
[06:57:08] <liwakura> yeah but not everywhere i guess
[06:57:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> there can be interrupt tables at 2 predefined locations.
[06:57:24] <liwakura> i guess i'll just need some kind of dispatcher
[06:57:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah....you can't just pick a place in memory unfortunately.
[06:57:48] <WormFood> [19:29:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> datasheet page 288, table 27-9 <-- is for a different MCU
[06:57:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[06:57:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> up one page.
[06:58:04] <WormFood> Page 287, table 27-6
[06:58:04] <liwakura> also my MCU has an 2k bootloader mode
[06:58:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> table 27-6
[06:58:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> liwakura, that 2k bytes or 2k words?
[06:58:31] <liwakura> 2k bytes
[06:58:32] <liwakura> ah
[06:58:33] <liwakura> i see
[06:59:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> anyhoo, look at how it's done in the ardweeny bootloader...I know that one works at least.
[06:59:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> I gotta go to work now.
[07:00:24] <WormFood> Lambda_Aurigae, I've already added that LDSECTION, and it still doesn't work
[07:01:03] <WormFood> avrdude: ERROR: address 0x820003 out of range at line 28 of main.hex
[07:01:25] <WormFood> no idea why it's doing that. If I remove the offending lines, it still doesn't work
[07:02:14] <liwakura> uhm. sounds like the code is too big for bootloader section
[07:02:37] <WormFood> It's not. It's less than 500 bytes
[07:02:40] <liwakura> also, what lines did you remove?
[07:02:49] <WormFood> and I have the code size, of the bootloader set to 2k
[07:03:02] <WormFood> addresses that it won't program. Most likely from the fuses.
[07:03:35] <liwakura> hm
[07:04:56] <WormFood> FUSES = { .low = 0xff, .high = (HFUSE_DEFAULT & FUSE_EESAVE), .extended = (0x07 & FUSE_BOOTSZ0 & FUSE_BOOTSZ1 & FUSE_BOOTRST) };
[08:19:46] <LeoNerd> Hmmm. I'm on a mega328 and I could do with two serial ports. I guess my options are: software for one, or some kind of external offload via SPI or I²C
[08:20:34] <LeoNerd> One port is for an RS485 line talking some custom protocol I have yet to invent (i.e. is super flexible); the other is PC control/status/debug
[08:21:13] <LeoNerd> Anyone have opinions on what works well in this scenario?
[08:23:34] <LeoNerd> E.g. I'm not fixed at some silly baud rate for my '485 bus, so I could run it at a neat division of the 16MHz fCPU; say, 25kBaud
[08:24:04] <LeoNerd> A software solution there is allowed 160 cycles per bit at 4times oversample. Should be plenty
[08:50:11] * LeoNerd entertains crazy thoughts of using an ATtiny841 as a bus offload chip; doing all the UART, packetising, timeout/retries, CRC checks... and just talk to it over SPI
[08:50:51] <LeoNerd> Except.. time.. :/ That'd be a whole new application to develop
[08:50:56] <LeoNerd> And board
[08:52:12] <cehteh> we want multi-core avrs :D
[08:52:16] <LeoNerd> Hah
[08:52:19] <LeoNerd> Get a Propeller ;)
[08:52:27] <LeoNerd> Nah... a second UART on the mega328 would do me fine.
[08:52:40] <LeoNerd> Aside from a second UART, it's rare I find myself wanting more stuff on a 328
[08:52:52] <cehteh> the new328 has 2 uarts or?
[08:53:03] <LeoNerd> Yah.. the 328PB
[08:53:10] <cehteh> yes PB was it
[08:53:15] <LeoNerd> But nobody's making dirtcheap ATmega328PB breakout boards yet
[08:53:16] <liwakura> LeoNerd: if you are inventing the one protocol anyways
[08:53:21] <liwakura> why not simply using spi for it?
[08:53:28] <cehteh> i am waiting too
[08:53:42] <LeoNerd> Whereas, if you just buy an ardweeny nano you get a 328P on a nice 0.1" pitch breakout board with USB-UART bridge and power regulator for $5
[08:53:49] <cehteh> what does the 328pb cost?
[08:54:04] <LeoNerd> liwakura: I can't do SPI over an RS-485 link
[08:54:06] <cehteh> considerably more than the 328p?
[08:54:14] <liwakura> oh
[08:54:20] <liwakura> overread that
[08:54:30] <LeoNerd> A plain 328PB chip should be cheap enough. But consider the effort of mounting it on a board
[08:54:36] <LeoNerd> Hm.. though it should be pin-compatible
[08:54:39] <LeoNerd> I wonder if I could swap one ;)
[08:54:40] <liwakura> uhm
[08:54:57] <liwakura> there are cheap arduni nano clones, = atmega328p with the features LeoNerd said
[08:55:03] <liwakura> like 15€ for 5 piece
[08:55:05] <LeoNerd> Yah
[08:55:13] <LeoNerd> That's the reason I use 328Ps
[08:55:20] <LeoNerd> It's quick/cheap/easy to get breakout boards for them
[08:55:22] <cehteh> i am thinking asking here and maybe on some other forums to produce some arduino nano or pro-mini with 328pb might be worthwhile
[08:55:28] <LeoNerd> Any other chip suggests making sometihng custom. Which I can do, but not quickly.
[08:55:49] <cehteh> let it manufacture .. 1000's .. maybe ask some chinese manufactuerer to do all the logistics
[08:56:01] <liwakura> do a kickstarter campaign :D
[08:56:07] <cehteh> yes something like that
[08:56:24] <cehteh> but kickstarter for cloning something with a updated chip .. meh :D
[08:56:25] <liwakura> or just ask some chinese manufacturer
[08:56:29] <cehteh> yes
[08:56:34] <LeoNerd> Eh.. I just want one. I *NEED* this to work by the end of May
[08:56:39] <LeoNerd> That's a hard deadline
[08:56:47] <cehteh> start now . .:D
[08:57:06] <LeoNerd> For "some time" later I'm considering making a little RS485 offload board - the isolator/bus driver and a tiny841 onboard to hold some application
[08:57:09] <cehteh> other thing are there arduino nano/promini pcbs available?
[08:57:12] <LeoNerd> But that won't do me for now
[08:57:22] <cehteh> if one needs only one then soldering it is okish
[08:57:52] <LeoNerd> It's a thought I suppose
[08:58:03] <LeoNerd> I have a stack of nano boards already.. including a few custom ones
[08:58:19] <LeoNerd> There's one I swapped the 16MHz osc. for a 14.7456 so I could od nice serial baud divisors :)
[08:58:52] <cehteh> http://www.electrodragon.com/product/arduino-pro-mini-bared-pcb-board/
[08:59:03] <liwakura> LeoNerd: also wanted to do that
[08:59:11] <liwakura> but, i don't even have such a quartz
[08:59:16] <LeoNerd> They're hard to get
[08:59:19] <liwakura> neither tools to solder such tiny stuff
[08:59:29] <LeoNerd> The arduino nano uses the -tiny- 3.2mmx1.6mm murato resonator
[08:59:34] <LeoNerd> They're hard to obtain in odd frequencies
[08:59:46] <LeoNerd> I got a strip of 5 by... nonconventional measures ;)
[08:59:46] <cehteh> problems problems :D
[09:00:13] <LeoNerd> If you particularly want a specially-modded nano with one of those chips, I could do it for you. Post me a plain nano and I'll swap it and post it back
[09:00:14] <cehteh> but not mine
[09:00:44] <cehteh> nano with some solder bridges for leds, DTR-RESET ...
[09:02:50] <liwakura> i cut the DTR-RESET line of mine
[09:03:25] <liwakura> LeoNerd: thanks for your offer
[09:03:26] <cehteh> i so when its necessary
[09:03:38] <cehteh> having a solder bridge there would be nice
[09:04:21] <LeoNerd> So my options are now looking like: software second UART; offload via tiny841; offload via.. some other chip..?; replace 328P with 328PB
[09:04:46] <cehteh> 328PB is possibly the easiest solution
[09:05:07] <cehteh> software uart .. if it works mmkay
[09:05:26] <cehteh> need fast speeds? have other things to do? → meeh
[09:05:41] <LeoNerd> So.. the RS-485 bus is largely idle. It's an occasional communication
[09:06:05] <LeoNerd> The messages are about button presses and LED control for a stage cueuing system, so the messages are only a few bytes long and infrequent at human-press speeds
[09:06:09] <cehteh> idle doesnt matter.. you have to met the timing constraints when it is in use
[09:06:20] <LeoNerd> So I don't mind running that bus at something slow like 25kBaud,.. or even slower
[09:06:29] <cehteh> if you can go with 1200 baud or whatever then its prolly fine
[09:06:33] <LeoNerd> 25kBaud gives me 640 cycles per bit
[09:06:37] <LeoNerd> Which seems like plenty
[09:06:57] <cehteh> dunno how busy your µC is otherwise
[09:07:04] <cehteh> 1200 was only an example
[09:07:09] <LeoNerd> It's PWMing some LEDs.. that's about it
[09:07:17] <cehteh> hw pwm?
[09:07:31] <LeoNerd> Ish. Hardware PWM under software control to do gradiant ramps
[09:07:47] <cehteh> then that should be no problem at all with sw serial
[09:08:22] <cehteh> i bet your ramps are even allowed to miss a deadline when the serial use the µC
[09:08:32] <LeoNerd> I think this feels best. It's not ideal but it's better than last year's attempt - which is I²C-alike over 95m of unshielded cable
[09:08:39] <LeoNerd> This will be RS-485 over the same. :)
[09:08:52] <LeoNerd> Ohyeah; totally. The ramps are just to give the LED a nice glowy effect. If it's off nobody minds
[09:10:17] <cehteh> "LEDS are in sync with the Reactor control rods ... no problem" :D
[09:11:03] <LeoNerd> Hehe :)
[09:11:09] <LeoNerd> This is just theatrical cue control
[09:13:01] <bss36504> Honest question, where do you guys find these jobs? I'd love to be paid to do embedded, but the job market near me for embedded guys is...crap. So I'm stuck doing semiconductor circuit design/EDA tools.
[09:13:15] <LeoNerd> Hah.. paid?
[09:13:23] <bss36504> Ohhhh....
[09:13:24] <bss36504> lol
[09:13:30] <LeoNerd> I'm doing this as a volunteer thing. Sometimes I get paid material expenses...
[09:13:50] <bss36504> Well that's nice of you. I'd love to be able to make an actual living though.
[09:14:17] <LeoNerd> Yah.. I haven't really found a way to get paid enough for electronics stuff.. so I do computer programming stuff for that
[09:14:18] <bss36504> It seems like most of the companies that do employ embedded guys just have ONE guy. So I have to wait till he dies or something in order to apply haha
[09:17:06] <Haohmaru> death by 5volts
[09:17:45] <Haohmaru> or finger stuck in the keyboard, bleed to death
[09:26:28] <LeoNerd> So.. software serial. Do people still do oversampling? E.g. I'm thinking in the receiver of clocking at 4x bitrate and taking 3 samples per incoming bit, to do majority vote
[09:27:14] <LeoNerd> Given the shared bus nature of RS-485 I have to do higher-level collisionproofing anyway,... most likely CRC the packet and use ack/retry
[09:27:22] <LeoNerd> So bit-level errors are less interesting here
[09:34:46] <skz81> <LeoNerd> Whereas, if you just buy an ardweeny nano you get a 328P on a nice 0.1" pitch breakout board with USB-UART bridge and power regulator for $5 >> got one for 1€60. But nearly two month delivery
[09:35:33] <LeoNerd> Mmm :)
[09:35:41] <LeoNerd> Well yes, there's often a delivery time vs. cost tradeoff
[09:36:05] <LeoNerd> I have <6 weeks until this thing must be working and bug-free. So shipping time starts costing me
[09:41:49] <LeoNerd> Oh I've jsut realised, trying to put a 328PB on an Arduino Nano board would be a terrible idea
[09:42:10] <bss36504> Why is that?
[09:42:11] <LeoNerd> Where the 328P has additional VCC or GND pins, the 328PB has two more GPIOs
[09:42:23] <LeoNerd> So they'd end up being permanently shorted to ground or +5V
[09:42:39] <LeoNerd> Not -inherently- bad but you'd blow something up if you ever set DDRE wrongly
[09:42:57] <LeoNerd> So I'd have to cut those traces off and.. hmm.. bring the pins out somehow else. Or just ignore them
[09:43:49] <LeoNerd> The 328PB still has double UARTs, SPIs, I²Cs and more timers, plus full GPIO ability on the pins that were previously just ADC6/7.. so already that's an advantage even without those extra two GPIOs as well
[09:47:06] <bss36504> Seems worth it
[10:15:03] <LeoNerd> Hmm.. AVR304 talks about a software serial implementation, though that doesn't do oversampling
[10:21:53] <bss36504> If youre just going to CRC anyway, why bother with oversampling? That seems like a complexity you could somewhat easily add in after the fact, if you find that your signal integrity is realllly that poor
[10:22:31] <LeoNerd> Yah
[10:22:41] <LeoNerd> Oh definitely.. I'll start with a 1x sampled version and see how it works
[10:23:12] <LeoNerd> CRC doesn't correct for errors, it can only detect them. Whereas the majority voting of 3x oversample has a higher chance of correcting bitwise errors
[10:23:24] <LeoNerd> So both in combination is still useful
[10:28:15] <bss36504> true true, no need to overkill it though. Sounds like you have the right approach
[10:43:02] <cehteh> LeoNerd: did you check if the 328pb has some 328p compatibility fuse, securing those pins?
[10:43:20] <cehteh> otherwise there was an appnote about the differences
[10:44:24] <LeoNerd> cehteh: I didn't, no. But then surely if you locked it down to non-B mode you'd lose the other things
[10:44:34] <LeoNerd> I think easiest is for me just to cut the traces off the PCB
[10:45:43] <cehteh> LeoNerd: would be stupid if they did that, i hoped for a fuse which selects compatibility only as far not to blow something up
[10:46:37] <cehteh> schematics for 'duinos are available anyway .. maybe even project files for eagle or kicad or so
[10:56:47] <LeoNerd> Oh.. quite. I'm sure I could easily take and adapt one
[10:56:57] <LeoNerd> But if I'm making a custom board I'd just make a /totally/ custom board
[10:57:17] <LeoNerd> First thing to do: put proper pin names on the IO lines rather than silly arduino numbers
[10:57:32] <bss36504> +1 to that
[10:57:41] <cehteh> thats just silkscreen
[10:57:46] <LeoNerd> Sure
[10:57:46] <cehteh> but yes :)
[10:58:12] <LeoNerd> To be honest, I already have an RS-485 isolator board, that has the max481, and a DCDC isolator + AD logic isolator
[10:58:42] <LeoNerd> I think if I did another round of that I'd add a tiny841 onboard and just bring most of its pins out except the UART, which is hardwired to the RS-485 line. That way it becomes a dedicated bus transaction unit
[10:58:50] <LeoNerd> It can then do all the packeting and whatnot.
[10:58:58] <LeoNerd> It's just not a solution for /now/
[10:59:14] <cehteh> are there tinys with hardware usb?
[11:01:11] <LeoNerd> I don't think a tiny, no
[11:22:12] <WormFood> LeoNerd, I improved the Atmel software serial port a bit. I made it take less cycles. If you want my code, it's merged in with a little project, that I'd be happy to share with you. (It's a serial speed converter, to convert 140.625kbps to 115.2kbps)
[11:24:45] <LeoNerd> "fewer"
[11:24:59] <LeoNerd> I wasn't looking at the atmel one. I never actually use those. They're weeeeird
[11:25:03] <LeoNerd> I was probably just going to write something custom
[11:28:59] <WormFood> I modified their software interrupt driven serial port
[11:29:38] <WormFood> They have 4, if I remember correctly. 2 in asm, and 2 in C, one is polled, and one is interrupt driven.
[11:30:26] <WormFood> I modified the asm interrupt driven one.
[11:31:04] <WormFood> I STILL can't fuckin' get my bootloader code to work. It appears to never execute.
[11:31:32] <cehteh> asm or c?
[11:32:21] <cehteh> you toggle some debug led unconditionally right at the beginning? .. i mean just in case it executed but exits immediately
[13:06:17] <WormFood> Fuckin' shitty Internet connection
[13:06:43] <Tom_itx> send them more money
[13:09:34] <WormFood> Why?
[13:09:42] <WormFood> It won't help
[13:10:02] <Tom_itx> i bet if you stop sending them money it would get much worse
[13:10:13] <WormFood> in 10 years, China will have blocked the entire Internet outside of China, and 1/2 the Internet inside of China.
[13:10:49] <cehteh> WormFood: how bad are ads, spam and malware on the pages you get to see?
[13:11:38] <WormFood> The sometimes hijack pages I view, to insert their own javascript. I even had them intercepting the MP3s I was downloading from my server.
[13:11:58] <cehteh> lol
[13:12:03] <cehteh> ok
[13:12:07] <WormFood> at which point, I proceeded to download them via rsync, over ssh
[13:12:12] <WormFood> Fuckin' pricks!
[13:12:28] <cehteh> did they block them or replace them?
[13:13:20] <WormFood> The redirected my MP3s through their server. I'm not sure what their goal is.
[13:13:38] <Tom_itx> checking up on you
[13:13:47] <WormFood> And now they've blocked all DNS
[13:13:50] <cehteh> they want music too
[13:14:11] <WormFood> I can't even query my fuckin' dns server, to make sure I've setup things properly.
[13:14:13] <Tom_itx> imbed some subliminal messages in them
[13:14:48] <WormFood> I only have a 6 month contract, and it's about to expire...so guess what? These fuckin' pieces of shit are getting dropped.
[13:15:05] <theBear> i embed subliminal jibberish in my irc text, but you guys don't notice cos it flashes up and is gone so damned quickly
[13:15:08] <WormFood> I'll take Internet at 1/10th the speed, if they don't play these fuckin' games with me.
[13:15:26] <Tom_itx> theBear you're one sly dog
[13:15:55] <WormFood> You can hide messages by setting the text color to be the same as the background.
[13:16:03] <WormFood> well...sorta hide them.
[13:16:33] <WormFood> I still can't get this fuckin' bootloader to god damn work.
[13:16:50] <WormFood> I have gone over everything, over and over, and I can't see anything that I've overlooked.
[13:16:51] <cehteh> WormFood: dns over ssh :D
[13:16:54] <theBear> heh "WormFood then held the mic horizontal for a moment, opened his hand to let it drop to the stage, and slowly walked away looking relaxed without a care in the world, over a gentle far away sounding squeeeeeeeeiiiii of feedback
[13:17:29] <theBear> Tom_itx, i thought i was one err, well, definately thought it was one bear i am, forget what kind of one it was sposed to be
[13:17:36] <WormFood> I haven't been able to login to my server for the last 2 days.
[13:17:49] <WormFood> It's like they're randomly blocking everything. Even Chinese sites.
[13:17:50] <theBear> lol, text colour, you kids and your post ascii era capable terminals and irc clients
[13:17:51] <Tom_itx> ssd are awesome
[13:18:01] <theBear> who ? and where your server at ?
[13:18:12] <Tom_itx> just cloned my drive in about 15 min
[13:18:33] <WormFood> I have my ssh server running on about 15 different ports, and 2 IP addresses, and fuck! Sometimes one IP or ports won't work, and others will...then they change it up, and what was working, now isn't, and what wasn't working is.
[13:18:46] <WormFood> theBear, my server is in singapore
[13:19:26] <WormFood> What happens when we directly map the flash of the SSDs into the computer's RAM addresses?
[13:19:53] <WormFood> We won't get super speed out of it, but it'd be like nvram
[13:20:12] <theBear> heh, well, err, thank god you got so many ports and ips to try, i suppose... with all that constant breakage you mention
[13:20:27] <theBear> you won't get bad speed outta it, but you won't have much free ram <grin>
[13:21:01] <WormFood> It'd look like a ramdisk
[13:21:04] <theBear> not like modern direct-mmu-inside-cpu style uncomprehendably fast main ram is considerd to be slow
[13:21:58] <theBear> WormFood, well if ya think about it, it would be one, just like the days of gwbasic and tsrs to make your non-plug-in detectable 25pin serial mouse work :)
[13:23:44] <Tom_itx> what's windoz limit on drive size?
[13:24:32] <theBear> who gives a eff ? <grin> i dunno, but it's stupid big now if you use whatever their preffered fs is and have a modern interface that can handle stupidly large addresses
[13:24:51] <Tom_itx> do you know if they have a tool to expand the partition size?
[13:24:56] <theBear> i'm talking like, half a million petabytes or something, like STUPID big
[13:25:58] <theBear> not native, but either partition wizard, umm disksomethingor efit, look at the hirens boot cd list for the partition something and disksomething named tools under harddisk subsection, either of those are supergood and reliable, and free
[13:30:18] <theBear> heck, just dload the thing and jam it on yer sparest usb stick, it's effin' hadny to have on hand.... volatile xp pe env with every gui fix-something and config-stuff util you could imagine, everything from mal/virus scanners thru winpassword reset on chosen/non-live registry/winstall thru "one click" installer utils and just everything, plus gparted or similar linux live-cd/bootable with a handful of partition and browse things and network stuff kinda
[13:30:18] <theBear> tools, oh and a bunch of cloney stuf, then a bunch of little things like smart/scan at runtime kinda bootloaders and grub menu items to do stuff like lie about which hd is which or juggle partitions or just plain boot off a specific partition in case of perhaps a bodged mbr killing yer boot, and wanting to boot in seconds to the machien itself and then fix it, rather than wait forever to boot the winstall and be railroaded into clicking repair that will
[13:30:19] <theBear> take forever to fail before you can get to a terminal where you need literally seconds to fix it :)
[13:30:36] <theBear> suffice to say, i think it's awesome, that hirens boot cd
[13:34:53] <Tom_itx> hah, windows has a feature to to it
[13:38:54] <theBear> do what ? stretch a partition ? and remember lvds err, whatever they call stupid dynamic disk mode, adding a partition to a stupid-concept-pool and making an effective bigger one that way doesn't count, and the whole thing is a stupid idea, i always felt
[13:39:25] <theBear> and if it does, wow, you must be on that horrible new one that i literally struggle to do ANYTHING on in my couple of horrible exposures to it
[14:31:50] <eszett> hi
[14:34:01] <RikusW> hi
[14:34:04] <RikusW> megal0maniac: hi
[14:39:14] <megal0maniac> RikusW: Hello :)
[14:39:47] <RikusW> I'll be working close to century city starting next month
[14:47:13] <theBear> that sounds liek a city inside a computer game, sif there real places wiht names like that ... actually, it makes me wanna say that's where astroby grew up
[14:47:39] <megal0maniac> theBear: It's real, I swear
[14:47:49] <theBear> heh, that's what i say to all the girls
[14:49:06] <theBear> ooh, i feel there's a kickass new pickup line i nthere somewhere.... something like err, "hey baby :-) you ever been in the bears den when shit gets real ? like mad-real, not for play plays ?"
[14:50:01] <megal0maniac> I don't think I'll use that one ;)
[14:50:17] <megal0maniac> theBear: Are you keeping out of trouble?
[14:54:37] <RikusW> theBear:
https://www.google.co.za/maps/place/Century+City,+Cape+Town,+7441/@-33.8894612,18.5044517,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x1dcc5c059c545213:0xb08b8213f2a0a7be?hl=en
[14:54:57] <theBear> mmm, yeah, i think so, but who knows what today will bring ? heh, there's a surprisingly real (albeit small, hard to say how small yet) chance i'll be err, doing some of that rolling-in-hay business with a nice young(er) mother of two by the end of the day, either way the girl of my pair of new couple-doors-up neighbor friends seems to have deecided i'm super-awesome thru+thru and therefore encourages rather than discourages any kind of romance with her
[14:54:57] <theBear> friends, so that's well, potentially kickass, all this surgery recovery and supercrippledness has kinda put a big dent in my meeting and touching of the ladies
[14:55:59] <RikusW> heh
[14:57:01] <megal0maniac> So that's a no, then?
[14:58:36] <theBear> oh eff you in the ass you constant writing worse-ness into the pages and searchey algos googlegineers, and i suspect eff flash and all adobe products just outta spite too, judging from that two cores escalated steadily to fully pegged and showig no signs of coming back... ooh, my youtube thing stopped making noise in the tab i can't switch too, least there no green light of superslow death or mb's every second of ram and swap going down down down
[15:04:48] <theBear> megal0maniac, heh, well, i did get a parking ticket this week, tho i suspect being my buddies primary transport and him being a resident that we can un-exist that for free, and i am a bit grumpy at the asshat note-leaving halfway house guy near the parking end of the block that on his last note said he had already given the parking ticket dude my plates and next time he would get me hammered, and if i see him while i in the area anytime soon and there's
[15:04:49] <theBear> even a hint of cheeky smile or told-ya-so on his face, i will beat him horribly, and he will be seriously injured in ways that will last him until he dies, no matter how long it takes, cos i don't like that kinda attitude, it's not good for the neighborhood or anyone involved, plus we 99% sure he helped me get a ticket that otherwise probly woulda never been issued, and as the years pass, my itch to hurt someone increases, i very reformed in my
[15:04:49] <theBear> not-youthy years, and i was never one to start conflict, only end it, cos the noise and chatter alone just hurts my head, even the not-friendly vibe of someone thatis like that almost physically hurts my brian, nevertheless, been a long time, and when someone does eventually beg me hard enough, they likely get a little pent up overkill as a free bonus, and he's the most likely i had in years
[15:05:03] <theBear> but so far, keeping outta trouble :-)
[15:11:13] <eszett> guys.. what kind of tool would you recommend to hold / pick up / keep in place components while soldering?
[15:11:22] <WormFood> Fuck! I don't understand. My program runs from the bootloader section, if and only if, there are no interrupts. I've moved the interrupt source to the bootloader section, but it still doesn't god damn work.
[15:11:47] <WormFood> eszett, that depends on what exactly you're working with. There is no one answer that is best for your question.
[15:11:51] <eszett> im not happy with my pincers.. they are just a botch. the component slip away, and pins get damaged etc.
[15:12:32] <eszett> WormFood: im working with 1206 and smaller resistors, and TQFP
[15:16:29] <bss36504> eszett: invest in a quality pair of stainless steel tweezers. Make sure the tips line up well. The better the quality, the more likely this is to happen. Just dont be too cheap and you'll have better results. Plus, if the tips line up, you dont have too sqeeze so hard, and you'll probably launch less parts across the room (and say less bad words)
[15:16:38] <theBear> what happens if there's an interrupt exactly, and i'm independtantly of that answer, trying to remember exactly how isr's return, thinking words like isr vector, getting round to saying tha perhaps they are jumping back to somewhere wrong cos they are set/assuming traditonal run/bootwhich would obviously land themb ack into a slightly flawed \
[15:16:49] <eszett> im not sure if i should buy fine tip tweezers, like that
https://www.adafruit.com/product/422 or a vacuum pickup tool like that
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Vacuum-Anti-Static-Sucking-Pen-Pick-Place-IC-SMT-SMD-Tool-Soldering-939-USA-SHIP-/151059227986?hash=item232bd4e552:g:W6oAAOSw7NNUKkHg
[15:17:25] <eszett> bss36504 ahh, yes, those from adafruit are good quality
[15:17:36] <bss36504> The vaccum pickup tools are ok, but dont stand up to heat very well. So dont use if youre hot air soldering. the tweezers are always a good choice
[15:17:56] <bss36504> I'd reccomend a pair of straight tweezers too, sometimes I dont like my bent ones very much
[15:17:58] <eszett> bss: exactly that was my worry, that the vacuum thing melts
[15:18:16] <bss36504> Yeah, those are good if youre just placing parts onto paste'd pads
[15:18:23] <eszett> these are the straight ones from adafruit
https://www.adafruit.com/product/421
[15:19:05] <eszett> alright, thanks for advice!
[15:19:23] <bss36504> Those should work pretty well. I have similar ones. I also have a medical grade pair that I love. Got it for free, and I dont remember the brand, unfortunately. I can look when im home.
[15:20:17] <WormFood> some parts can be glued to the board, before soldering.
[15:20:50] <eszett> bss: cool, i will query you later or tomorrow about the brand, if you dont mind
[15:21:15] <eszett> WormFood: which kind of glue do are you using?
[15:21:53] <WormFood> There is a special glue they use when using some manufacturing techniques. I don't use glue. I pay someone else to deal with it.
[15:21:54] <eszett> my TQFP is pretty touchy when it comes to exact placement, really annoying
[15:22:20] <eszett> WormFood: I see..
[15:22:39] <bss36504> Solder one pin on a corner, rotate till it's alingned, tack an opposite corner, finish
[15:22:44] <WormFood> I've soldered on a 40 or so pin TSOP, with just a regular shitty soldering iron.
[15:23:40] <WormFood> the trick is to use a lot of rosin, so the solder will have good surface tension. Make a ball of solder, and just roll it across the pins. If your iron is hot enough, and there is enough rosin, it should work. But alignment is critical.
[15:23:40] <eszett> WormFood: ye its possible but no fun
[15:24:18] <WormFood> eszett, my particular soldering iron, had a concave tip, so it could literally hold a ball of solder.
[15:24:40] <WormFood> It wasn't designed that way. It just wore down that way, after many years of use.
[15:24:54] <eszett> bss / WormFood: what do you think about the follwing method. pasting solder paste on the pads. then place the TQFN on them, and use hot air gun?
[15:25:14] <eszett> concave tip, ahh. i should get one
[15:25:35] <WormFood> That may also work. If you have a hot air gun, that might be worth trying. But, be sure you don't use so much heat, that you blow away the chip.
[15:25:50] <eszett> yea, but i anticipate a possible problem there
[15:25:59] <WormFood> er...I mean, make sure you don't use too much AIR, blowing the parts away.
[15:26:00] <eszett> the hot air wont melt all pads simultaneously
[15:26:20] <eszett> hm, i give it a try
[15:26:35] <WormFood> They make special hoods, to direct the heat exactly where you need it for that specific chip. I'm guessing you don't have one of those.
[15:26:55] <eszett> I will check which method is more comfortableeither the method discussed above, or the one with the opposite pins, mentioned by bss
[15:27:06] <theBear> nah, not quite on a 40pin, but you can get em all to "fraction of a second more hot ait aimed right at this spot will have 5 or 10 pins all nicely flowing and meltified
[15:27:30] <bss36504> eszett: No, thats not really true. If you heat the whole board up, there will be a time when all the solder is molten at the same time, and with enough flux, your part should sort of "snap" into place
[15:27:37] <eszett> WormFood: i dont have such a hood, but i have kryton tape so that i can protect the chip itself, and blow with full heat directly on it
[15:27:38] <RikusW> eszett: I have a straight 0.8mm fine tip tweezer, it works well for 0805,0603 and tqfp like mega32u2
[15:27:42] <WormFood> If the chip isn't heavy, the surface tension of the pins can actually line up the IC
[15:27:49] <bss36504> just keep your heat moving around the perimeter of the part
[15:28:17] <eszett> bss: ah ok
[15:29:00] <eszett> ie. i have to move the hot air in circles around the TQFP
[15:29:13] <theBear> hmmm, wtf have my pics of my first super-fancy ram-replacement repair first job after i got the aoyue for/at that job, hot damn it came out looking better than perfect ! texybook soic ram ics , less than inches from the cpu and tiny passives scattered nearby/everywhere, scattered by design that isheh, you'll neve straighen thm
[15:46:11] <LeoNerd> Kinda offtopic but it's quiet: I want 12V at around 150mA to power some LEDs.. so that's under 2W. I'm looking for a really small mains PSU. Can anyone suggest a really really tiny one?
[15:48:25] <RikusW> eszett: placing solder on tqfp pads makes it harder to place the tqfp
[15:48:53] <RikusW> I usually place the tqfp and then apply flux with a syringe
[15:50:53] <theBear> LeoNerd, mobile charger or 12v lighter socket usb thing
[15:50:57] <RikusW> then I apply some solder to the iron tip and solder a single pin
[15:51:16] <LeoNerd> theBear: Mobile charger will be 5V
[15:51:28] <LeoNerd> But possibly I could find a little "fake car lighter socket" adapter thing
[15:51:32] <RikusW> recheck and possibly move it slightly and solder the opposite pin, recheck and then all pins
[15:52:21] <theBear> LeoNerd, yeah ,but that's what makes it interesting
[15:52:34] <LeoNerd> Mmm?
[15:53:44] <theBear> those lighter socket ones seem to be 8/10 mc34063 based and 60% dip on the nice little board in thereand if yer a bit patient i confident that ANY plug wallwart
[15:54:04] <theBear> can be trivially re-feedback-dividey and bumped up
[15:54:12] <theBear> oh, and some windings
[15:55:05] <LeoNerd> Huh?
[15:55:10] <LeoNerd> Oh.. those things convert 12V to 5V
[15:55:17] <LeoNerd> I want to convert 230mains to 12V
[15:55:55] <LeoNerd> Yeah I have a little 34063 board at home, because my car charger literally fell apart
[15:55:58] <LeoNerd> Cute thing
[16:04:36] <theBear> i got a bunch, only noticed they were something so damned old and common when one like yours literally would rather kill itself than spend one more moment near me, and spewed itself to pieces in my hand <grin>
[16:05:06] <theBear> yeah i know what you doing, i was listening, just getting a bit late to explain the bits that are less common knowledge to fill up the gaps
[16:05:58] <theBear> and on that note, mobi chargers are the only thing i can think of both in that ballpark pwoer handling/dissipation capability wise, and by far the only small ones
[16:06:09] <LeoNerd> Yah
[16:06:26] <LeoNerd> I guess I could get lucky with one of those and adjust the feedback resistors, if they're easily accessible
[16:06:45] <LeoNerd> If it can supply 5V 1A then that's 5W; definitely able to do 12V 150mA
[16:08:10] <carabia> Has anyone got any experience out of fiddling with the CAN-bus, car implementations?
[16:08:57] <carabia> It seems like it's a fucking jungle out there
[16:18:28] <theBear> itsapapatama it's a trick with a knife ("pop culture reference,look it up dummy !" and err, heh, same applies i guess
[16:21:38] <Evidlo> Anyone know if a tiny85 can be programmed to be a USB to Serial adapter?
[16:21:57] <LeoNerd> Not natively
[16:22:06] <LeoNerd> But sometimes people make V-USB-based bootloaders for them
[16:22:14] <LeoNerd> I'm not a fan myself. But then I actually have a real ISP adapter
[16:48:58] <theBear> i don't have a real an ything that looks like a serial port on a usb host, gonna avr up a couple soon, mostly cos this stupid city doesn't have <$30ft2323or similar in any form or conditon, but i can get a full ready to plug in and hit pgram usb key pcb format mega32u4 or othe similar spec little whole avr board, that can not only do the usb serial for half the price, but have a ton of time/power left over to do other stuff, metnal state... oh and of
[16:48:59] <theBear> course igot a few tiny 8 pin ones that are pretty good resource wise as far as the 8pin models go, but i dunno if they are best used on not-2323 projects
[16:49:18] <theBear> oh i meant to say at the start, i not sure how i feel about usb bootaging but too late
[16:49:34] <theBear> soft-usb virt-serial that is
[17:26:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> LeoNerd, get an arduino uno and swap the chip with the new PB...should be pin compatible.
[17:30:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> Evidlo, the attiny85 can be a usb-cdc adapter with v-usb software. It kind of breaks the low speed usb specs which doesn't officially support cdc but most modern OSs have been patched to accept it.
[17:37:50] <LeoNerd> Lambda_Aurigae: Unos are _huuuuge_
[17:37:54] <LeoNerd> I want something way smaller
[17:38:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> just a suggestion.
[17:38:16] <LeoNerd> I don't have your fear of smaller-than-DIP ;)
[17:38:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> I'm sure there are other smaller boards with the atmega328 on them.
[17:38:33] <LeoNerd> Infact just this very second I've just been soldering a paste/stencil board full of 0603s and SOICs
[17:38:40] <LeoNerd> Ihave a couple of TTH connectors to add now
[18:57:24] <Evidlo> Lambda_Aurigae: I need a usb to serial adapter, but in a small package
[18:57:36] <Evidlo> also I hate FTDI as a company and their chips are huge
[18:59:35] <LeoNerd> PL2303 are nice
[20:26:36] <PinkTieGuy> Hey all. Just curious if someone could maybe explain something to me. I'm hoping to control two digipots via spi. I'm working with an ATmega328. I've got SPI working with one digipot but I'm confused as to how to get two working. I know I could just have the second one on a seperate SS pin but is it possible to have both of the digipots hooked up to the same SS pin?
[20:51:05] <Emil> PinkTieGuy: kind of?
[20:51:20] <Emil> if you get an inverter you could flipflop them
[20:51:49] <PinkTieGuy> Sorry, not sure what flipflop means...
[20:52:38] <Emil> PinkTieGuy: you can figure out the context.
[20:53:24] <PinkTieGuy> Ok. Thanks
[20:54:21] <Emil> but you should know spi is designed for discrete pins