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[04:35:50] <rue_shop3> heh
[04:35:59] <rue_shop3> I forgot to keep repeating those macros every week
[04:36:30] <rue_shop3> those macros are compiled properly by gcc-avr into what they should be instruction wise
[04:36:33] <rue_shop3> I was impressed
[07:55:54] <pepijndevos> Can you read a pin immediately after changing DDRx to input? (attiny25)
[07:56:31] <Emil> pepijndevos: yes
[07:56:41] <pepijndevos> Hm....
[07:56:53] <Emil> pepijndevos: well, it can depend on some factors
[07:57:13] <Emil> like how fast your clock is and what your pin is connected to
[07:57:42] <pepijndevos> Oh, ofc... I'm silly. I have a 10k pull-up, so maybe it takes a few cycles to go from 0 to 1
[07:58:17] <Emil> But in any case you can always read PINX without caring about if the pin is an input or output
[07:58:41] <pepijndevos> I guess this depends on the capacitance of the pin, which is probably in the datasheet.
[07:58:56] <Emil> that is indeed correct
[07:58:58] <pepijndevos> Emil, but if it's an output, I'll just read the value I set it to, no?
[07:59:35] <Emil> Depends if it tries to pull enough current to sag the voltage ; )
[08:00:14] <Emil> Anycase, in almost all cases the capacitance change will be less than youe clock cycle
[08:04:33] <pepijndevos> I'll insert a nop and see if it fixes my problem, or look somewhere else...
[08:06:40] <pepijndevos> I can't really find anything about rise time or capacitance in the datasheet. But that's probably because I suck at reading datasheets.
[09:17:08] <pepijndevos> Is there any sane tool for Linux for drawing a schematic with an AVR in it?
[09:19:05] <h4x0riz3d> kicad is an option..
[09:20:35] <lorenzo> eagle?
[09:21:04] <lorenzo> plenty of libraries with AVR parts
[09:21:25] <lorenzo> sparkfun, adafruit, arduino-avr.lbr etc
[09:44:32] <julius> hi
[09:44:47] <julius> anyone owns a laptop that keeps silent even over long hours of working?
[09:48:17] <Lambda-Aurigae> yeah.
[09:48:19] <Lambda-Aurigae> several.
[09:59:10] <lorenzo> julius: yeah
[09:59:47] <lorenzo> well, unless you load the cpu a lot of course
[10:02:26] <Jartza> pepijndevos: I use eagle currently, because I'm a mac user. But latest kicad also seems to work, so I need to learn that. Both work swell on linux.
[10:03:14] <Jartza> Kicad development has made some nice stuff lately, so I'm willing to learn it, eagle free version has quite a lot of limitations
[10:03:35] <Jartza> but if you can live with 2-sided 16x10 cm board, eagle is also ok
[10:25:59] <julius> Lambda-Aurigae, lorenzo what are their names?
[10:26:13] <lorenzo> julius: thinkpad x230 and macbook air
[10:26:23] <julius> need a upgrade from my t410, the 4gb ram out of date
[10:26:43] <lorenzo> on the former the fan only spins when I start up a few VMs, on the latter I think I've never heard it
[10:26:48] <lorenzo> except at boot
[10:29:28] <cehteh> x230 here too, best laptop i ever had
[10:40:22] <julius> ive got a m540 i5 in here, any ide if the x230 will be a "big jump" forward?
[11:04:12] <lorenzo> julius: marginal at best
[11:04:45] <lorenzo> julius: but cpu doesn't really matter on a laptop
[11:04:48] <lorenzo> storage is the bottleneck
[11:05:31] <lorenzo> in everyday tasks I haven't been able to feel a real difference since Core 2 Duo or so
[11:07:43] <liwakura> i killed my lcd display
[11:07:54] <liwakura> so none virtual terminal anymore
[11:08:00] <liwakura> and i still have 4 atmega's left
[11:10:44] <julius> i could buy a 530 for 600€ + 80€ 16gb ram + 35€ new fan + 40€ new battery (different manufactor) ~740e
[11:10:46] <julius> €
[11:20:01] <liwakura> uhm... my instinct says you are not talking about an atmega
[11:20:24] <lorenzo> must be the new intel picmega 328p
[11:37:19] <cehteh> lorenzo: cpu and ram are good to have :D ..
[11:37:59] <cehteh> storage isnt much of a problem as soon you admit single disks (even ssd's) are kindof unreliable/volatile anyway
[11:38:24] <cehteh> just use some synchronizaton software or remote filesystem or both
[11:38:31] <cehteh> and do backup
[11:50:04] <Jartza> julius: my laptop keeps very silent :)
[11:50:08] <Jartza> it's called macbook pro :P
[11:52:43] <Lambda-Aurigae> julius, raylaptop and wslaptop
[11:53:02] <cehteh> recently i've seen a nice offer for a linux laptop from a german manufacturer
[11:53:08] <Lambda-Aurigae> well, wslaptop1, wslaptop2, wslaptop3, wslaptop4
[11:53:26] <PoppaVic> Lambda-Aurigae: is that the sound of one-hand spanking?
[11:53:43] <Lambda-Aurigae> julius asked what were the names of my laptops
[11:53:47] <PoppaVic> oh
[11:56:58] <cehteh> http://www.tuxedocomputers.com/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebooks/10-14-Zoll/TUXEDO-InfinityBook-13-3-matt-Full-HD-IPS-Aluminiumgehaeuse-Intel-Core-i7-Energiespar-CPU-zwei-HDD/SSD-bis-16GB-RAM-bis-15h-Akku-Slim-Book.geek
[11:57:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> one problem with that cehteh
[11:57:29] <cehteh> german :D
[11:57:30] <Lambda-Aurigae> it is german.
[11:57:37] <Lambda-Aurigae> :}
[11:57:57] <Lambda-Aurigae> I haven't bought a laptop for myself in 10 years.
[11:58:01] <cehteh> but i think you can figure the specs out
[11:58:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> people keep giving them to me and I fix them.
[11:58:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> my current is a dell something with a 2.5GHz I5 and 8GB of ram
[11:58:37] <Lambda-Aurigae> does just fine for everything I need
[11:58:51] <Lambda-Aurigae> I even have a docking station for it with parallel and serial ports.
[11:59:18] <Lambda-Aurigae> one of those portable docks that locks on and is about half an inch thick.
[11:59:42] <Lambda-Aurigae> has parallel, serial, 2 usb, and ps-2 keyboard and mouse ports.
[12:36:00] <julius> cehteh, looks nice
[12:36:33] <cehteh> if i'd need a new one i'd buy that
[12:36:44] <julius> 8gb is what im aiming for too
[12:36:58] <cehteh> i'd max it out to 16GB
[12:37:05] <cehteh> you can never have enough ram :D
[12:37:14] <julius> yes, as a minimum...but if i buy ram 16gb it is
[12:37:35] <julius> got 4gb currently in this t410 and you know when its full
[12:37:53] <julius> Lambda-Aurigae, of course, i named mine too :)
[12:37:54] <cehteh> zram/tswap ftw
[12:37:57] <cehteh> zswap
[12:38:48] <julius> with 16gb definitively a option
[12:38:52] <cehteh> i use zram on the laptop, even with 16GB ram .. and swappiness to 100
[12:38:56] <julius> but wouldnt 16gb take care of that more or less anyway?
[12:38:58] <cehteh> and zswap on the server
[12:39:30] <cehteh> that almost doubles the 'usable' ram without noticeable performance degration
[12:40:03] <cehteh> either way .. the more ram the better
[12:41:54] <julius> a more interresting question would be, what do you laptops do with their battery life? can you surf for ~3 hours?
[12:42:52] <cehteh> huh
[12:43:04] <cehteh> that would a limit many years ago
[12:43:26] <cehteh> nowadays you can get 10hours or more
[12:44:31] <cehteh> my wife has a t430s with a punny battery by default that is around 4hours
[12:44:50] <cehteh> but one can swap the cd rom for a 2nd battery when one needs that
[12:45:25] <cehteh> the big battery on my x230 gave juice for about 12hours when it was new
[12:45:53] <cehteh> modern haswell or skylake platforms are even more battery conserving
[12:46:38] <julius> really
[12:46:53] <julius> do you run linux or ms?
[12:47:18] <cehteh> the tuxedo says 15hours ... maybe in reality closer to 10-12 hours but still ok
[12:47:23] <cehteh> only linux here
[12:47:55] <julius> thats a information from someone who sells..
[12:47:59] <julius> i would never trust that
[12:48:04] <cehteh> yes but sounds believable
[12:48:18] <cehteh> and if you interested, maybe search for a review
[12:48:56] <julius> yes but i just saw one on youtube where the dude started out with ....on the new model they removed the battery led to conserve power
[12:49:04] <cehteh> even 10 hours would be ok .. if you dont trust their 15hrs claim
[12:49:12] <julius> yes
[12:50:03] <cehteh> bbl
[14:43:17] <cehteh> ah fuu ... its not my program which gets utf8 wrong but the terminal fucks up somehow, deleting half of a chinese character etc
[14:45:21] <Thrashbarg> what terminal?
[14:45:53] <cehteh> xterm and rxvt-unicode .. both do ugly things in slightly different ways
[14:46:00] <Thrashbarg> yup
[14:46:13] <cehteh> possibly its my fault with control sequences
[14:46:54] <cehteh> when i backspace a chinese character it really gets correctly handled in my line edit code (i added a hexdump along)
[14:47:06] <cehteh> but the terminal output garbles up
[14:47:40] <Thrashbarg> does xterm even do UTF? Have they updated it in 20 years?
[14:47:48] <cehteh> yes
[14:47:50] <Thrashbarg> ok
[14:47:59] <cehteh> well i am mainly on urxvt
[14:48:57] <Thrashbarg> I figure you're on Linux. Does it print the correct number of characters, just they're wrong? It could be a font thing
[14:53:05] <cehteh> when i add a 麻 and then backspace i get only the first half of the character, cut in half
[14:53:57] <Thrashbarg> I'd suggest trying differnet terminals, maybe one you can select the font on. Gnome-terminal, mate-terminal, etc
[14:54:24] <cehteh> looks a bit like the cursor movement code i use is incorrect, doesnt advance/backward character wise but byte wise, i investigate that
[14:54:32] <Thrashbarg> yup
[14:55:57] <cehteh> http://paste.debian.net/414879/ .. is almost as it looks like, except in the last line the 麻 is cut in half (copy paste that doesnt work)
[14:56:21] <cehteh> the lines in <> are the echoed back results, first the buffer as string, then hextump
[14:57:19] <cehteh> well i investigate the cursor positioning stuff
[14:59:32] <cehteh> mhm so cursor positioning moves the cursor by 'cells' .. chinese characters are double wide, need 2 cells
[14:59:53] <cehteh> but how the fuck can i tell how much cells a character needs
[15:00:29] <cehteh> ï·½
[15:00:39] <cehteh> .. needs *many* cells :D
[15:15:14] <cehteh> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/258258/how-to-erase-unicode-symbols-in-terminal .. what a mess
[15:22:06] <cehteh> so .. to delete a character without a truckload of heuristics i have to store cursor position, print it, query cursor position, move cursor accordingly
[15:26:02] <Lambda-Aurigae> is simple
[15:26:05] <Lambda-Aurigae> don't support unicode
[15:29:15] <cehteh> i had that thought
[15:29:39] <cehteh> but things like µ and ° are common
[15:29:54] <cehteh> maybe not on the user input side
[15:30:21] <cehteh> its selectable at compile time anyway
[16:19:00] <liwakura> utf-8 is pretty nice
[16:19:06] <liwakura> except on monospece locations
[16:19:10] <liwakura> *monospace
[16:20:36] <cehteh> yeah
[16:20:52] <cehteh> getting messy now, but i have a simple idea
[16:21:35] <cehteh> instead implementing true backspace (deleting one character, print the new tail of the string) i just reprint the whole string, then it shozuld work w/o problems
[16:21:56] <cehteh> same problems for cursor movement
[16:32:59] <julius> any idea if this thing:
http://de.aliexpress.com/item/150W-8A-DC-8-32V-to-9-46V-12-24-36-step-up-BOOST-converter-Laptop/32253022836.html needs a higher input voltage than output voltage?
[16:33:49] <Emil> julius: eh?
[16:34:03] <Emil> It is a boost converter
[16:34:43] <Emil> It by definition takes a lower voltage and forces it to a larger one
[16:34:47] <Lambda-Aurigae> boost converter should push a lower voltage up to a higher one.
[16:34:57] <Lambda-Aurigae> otherwise, it's not much of a boost converter.
[16:35:02] <Emil> yap
[16:35:49] <Emil> cehteh: backspace is super easy to implement
[16:36:01] <cehteh> Emil: so how?
[16:36:15] <cehteh> Emil: in presence of wide utf-8 chars ...
[16:36:37] <Emil> The terminal emulator doean't care
[16:36:43] <cehteh> it does
[16:36:46] <Emil> Nope
[16:36:48] <cehteh> yes
[16:36:58] <cehteh> otherwise it would work as is here
[16:37:09] <Emil> You can say whatever you want, it doesnt
[16:37:19] <cehteh> so how do you implement it?
[16:40:15] <Emil> "\e[D \e[D"
[16:41:46] <cehteh> that deletes half of a chinese character here
[16:42:06] <cehteh> and by definiton CSI-D steps back one *cell* not character
[16:42:26] <cehteh> some characters are wider than one cell
[16:44:06] <liwakura> Monospaces UTF-8 is black magic.
[16:44:12] <liwakura> Don't do it
[16:44:14] <liwakura> *Monospaced
[16:45:50] <cehteh> http://paste.debian.net/414902/
[16:46:13] <Emil> cehteh: if what you use to listen on the characters supporta utf-8 just print the god damn backspace character
[16:46:26] <cehteh> doesnt work either
[16:47:05] <cehteh> please confirm by your yourself first
[16:47:18] <cehteh> "麻麻\x08XXXX" .. thats the backspace character
[16:47:32] <cehteh> still leave a empty cell
[16:47:39] <Emil> And horrible, horrible to use a function for the new linw
[16:47:39] <Lambda-Aurigae> looks like someone is playing hangman.
[16:49:01] <cehteh> depends on the purpose of that newline
[16:49:16] <cehteh> (like flushing buffers, configure between \n \r\n .. etc)
[16:49:37] <cehteh> either way thats not the topic here, you are just wrong telling that it works
[17:01:09] <cehteh> .. and now, when done as i saied, it works
[17:34:49] <julius> Emil, just wondering because looking at the voltages for in/output it could do all kinds of things
[17:45:46] <Jartza> evening
[17:48:02] <Emil> julius: it is adjustable
[17:51:17] <Niebieski> Hey guys, I think some of you have stumpled upon this ?
http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit
[17:52:10] <Niebieski> I was wondering if there is a higher clock rate avr around that would run this system alot faster ?
[17:53:31] <cehteh> a lot .. likely not
[17:53:54] <cehteh> some people are overclocking AVR's but there are limits and that would only add a linear gain
[17:54:24] <cehteh> if you want to make it faster you better optimize the code (if possible, maybe it already is)
[17:55:01] <cehteh> The AVR is clocked at 24MHz (a slight overclocking over its stock 20MHz)
[17:55:04] <Niebieski> He already overclocked it from 20M to 24M.
[17:55:08] <cehteh> .. he aleady overclocks it :D
[17:55:12] <cehteh> yeah
[17:55:25] <Niebieski> There is AVRs that 40MHz right ?
[17:55:25] <Lambda-Aurigae> Niebieski, you can maybe run it at 25MHz
[17:55:29] <Lambda-Aurigae> that avr is 20MHz
[17:55:40] <cehteh> AVR's are limited by the flash memory read speed because they exceute code directly from flash
[17:55:43] <Lambda-Aurigae> that's the top speed for attiny and atmega chips.
[17:56:05] <cehteh> thats a design limit not easily to overcome
[17:56:34] <cehteh> other microcontroller load code into RAM which can be much faster
[17:56:36] <Lambda-Aurigae> I've run atmega1284p up to 24MHz with minimal issues. Most notably the ADC not working right.
[17:57:01] <Lambda-Aurigae> cehteh, and the pic32 runs straight from flash but has a readahead system like an x86 chip, kindasorta.
[17:57:17] <Lambda-Aurigae> also has a cache like the x86 chips.
[17:57:21] <Lambda-Aurigae> not nearly so big, but,,
[17:57:22] <cehteh> yes
[17:57:43] <cehteh> just AVR has its limits there
[17:58:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> Niebieski, it might be possible to rewrite that to work on an xmega which is a faster version of the mega but it's also a different animal and porting that software might be fun.
[17:58:33] <cehteh> anyways like i saied, with code optimization/better algorithms one can sometimes gain magnitudes or exponential performance improvements ..
[17:58:48] <cehteh> .. if the code wasnt good at the first place
[17:58:55] <Lambda-Aurigae> hehe..yeah.
[17:59:05] <cehteh> but for such an project i rather expect the programmer there is genius :D
[17:59:17] <cehteh> so hardly anything you can do
[17:59:23] <Niebieski> Yeah the project is so inspiring.
[17:59:26] <Lambda-Aurigae> that particular project, however, is a fun one as it is an 8bit AVR emulating a 32bit ARM and running linux.
[17:59:51] <cehteh> maybe you can parallelize some thing to more avrs
[17:59:57] <Lambda-Aurigae> I've built and run it.
[18:00:12] <cehteh> one doing the ram refresh, another doing i/o
[18:00:15] <Lambda-Aurigae> cehteh, that would mean major revamp of the software and hardware, but I can see how it could be done.
[18:00:28] <Lambda-Aurigae> the ram refresh really doesn't give you all that much of a hit.
[18:00:34] <cehteh> and interleave access, building your own speculative CPU emulation
[18:00:46] <Niebieski> He said the it takes only 1% of processing time.
[18:00:51] <Lambda-Aurigae> yup
[18:00:56] <cehteh> yeah
[18:01:12] <Lambda-Aurigae> I was doing 30pin sipp/simm 1Mb and 4Mb work with atmega32 back around 2002 or so.
[18:01:30] <cehteh> i dont really know the code, but maybe if you can externalize it you have some more SRAM and FLASH to implement other things in a more clever way
[18:01:45] <lorenzo> fascinating project but.. an AT91SAM9G25 runs Linux out of the box and costs ... less than an ATMEGA1284P
[18:01:48] <lorenzo> :D
[18:02:13] <Lambda-Aurigae> what slows it down is just the fact that is running 32bit code on an 8bit processor via a full arm emulation that fits in 64K of flash.
[18:02:15] <cehteh> possibly you can disect the ARM architecture and use AVR's to implement different things, ALU etc
[18:02:48] <Lambda-Aurigae> it is effectively a 6.5KHz ARM
[18:03:30] <Niebieski> I'm also disappointed that no one has built upon this or tried to make it faster.
[18:03:45] <cehteh> why?
[18:04:10] <cehteh> even when you get a 10x peformance boost. .. which i consider unlikely
[18:04:25] <cehteh> it will still only be a 65khz ARM
[18:04:42] <cehteh> much too slow .. for LOOOTS of additional efforts
[18:05:01] <Niebieski> He ran Ubuntu which is a heavy Linux distro.
[18:05:16] <cehteh> yes .. booted after hours :D
[18:05:19] <cehteh> or even longer
[18:05:32] <Niebieski> 2 hours. xD
[18:05:57] <cehteh> so 10 times faster .... still 12minutes boot
[18:06:05] <cehteh> responses to keypresses: minutes ..
[18:06:16] <Niebieski> There are light-weight distros out there.
[18:06:18] <cehteh> 10 times faster ... maybe 20 seconds then
[18:06:33] <cehteh> i think its not the distros weight
[18:06:39] <cehteh> its the kernel and the emulation layer
[18:06:41] <Lambda-Aurigae> Niebieski, even a lightweight distro won't make that thing any faster noticably.
[18:06:52] <Lambda-Aurigae> he booted a stripped down ubuntu
[18:06:57] <cehteh> maybe with a very old 1.x kernel it may be faster
[18:06:58] <Lambda-Aurigae> with and without X
[18:07:08] <cehteh> but halt these where x386 only
[18:07:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> cehteh, yes, you need a more modern kernel to boot on arm.
[18:07:38] <cehteh> its really only a fun project, you cant get that serious
[18:07:39] <Lambda-Aurigae> now, if you did an x86 emulator instead of an arm emulator, that might be doable.
[18:07:47] <cehteh> nah
[18:07:54] <cehteh> x86 is shit to emulate
[18:07:56] <Lambda-Aurigae> I think he did it as something for school.
[18:08:05] <Lambda-Aurigae> cehteh, yeah, I know...royal pain in the arse.
[18:08:06] <cehteh> well qemu :D
[18:08:08] <theBear> porn is one thing, but i don't think i could ever see an emulator as do-able <grin>
[18:08:33] <Lambda-Aurigae> theBear, we aren't talking teledildonics here...hehe
[18:09:06] <cehteh> another thing anyone of you can recommend a decent scripting thing for AVR's some small forth or so
[18:09:20] <cehteh> forth-like not even full
[18:09:25] <Lambda-Aurigae> cehteh, not forth.
[18:09:44] <cehteh> just something where one can make generic code scripts
[18:09:44] <Lambda-Aurigae> I've been futzing with a C emulator, making it BASIC like.
[18:09:49] <Lambda-Aurigae> err.
[18:09:51] <theBear> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayr7VVFjn4U i offer this in apology
[18:09:52] <Lambda-Aurigae> C Interpreter
[18:09:54] <Niebieski> ucLinux, I guess would make difference.
[18:10:07] <cehteh> Lambda-Aurigae: on avrs
[18:10:13] <Lambda-Aurigae> yeah.
[18:10:27] <cehteh> well old style basic implementatiuon may do
[18:10:35] <Lambda-Aurigae> took picoC and and ripping it apart.
[18:10:44] <Lambda-Aurigae> there are some basic implementations for AVR
[18:10:50] <cehteh> ah cool
[18:10:54] <cehteh> work in progress?
[18:11:08] <Lambda-Aurigae> my c interpreter is very much work in progress.
[18:11:25] <cehteh> i was thinking about some forth like language on my own.. but no actual plans
[18:11:31] <Lambda-Aurigae> http://hackaday.com/2012/05/03/basic-for-some-beefy-avrchips/
[18:11:33] <julius> why do you want to make something like basic?
[18:11:35] <Lambda-Aurigae> basic for the AVR
[18:11:42] <Lambda-Aurigae> julius, for the fun of it..
[18:11:52] <Lambda-Aurigae> remaking the C64 as a C machine rather than BASIC machine.
[18:12:08] <julius> then take python
[18:12:16] <julius> and make the avr useable with that
[18:12:18] <Lambda-Aurigae> instead of BASIC shell like the C64, I'm going with something like CSH
[18:12:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> julius, I hate python.
[18:12:26] <Lambda-Aurigae> I love C
[18:12:31] <Lambda-Aurigae> so, that's what I'm using.
[18:12:35] <julius> ok
[18:12:45] <Lambda-Aurigae> it's not any kind of commercial project.
[18:12:51] <Lambda-Aurigae> just something I'm doing for fun.
[18:12:52] <Niebieski> http://dpeckett.com/turning-the-arduino-uno-into-an-apple
[18:13:40] <cehteh> mhm some 'assembler' like interpreter would already do
[18:13:49] <Lambda-Aurigae> Niebieski, old..and it uses that dirty 7 letter A word
[18:13:54] <cehteh> few opcode, only stack machine
[18:14:05] <cehteh> program is just a array of char
[18:14:28] <julius> http://de.aliexpress.com/item/Automatic-Boost-Buck-Converter-CC-CV-5v-30V-To-1-30V-8A-12V-24V-Regulator-100W/32611751890.html <- will this work as a constant current source for leds from a 12v source?
[18:14:43] <cehteh> no
[18:14:57] <cehteh> thats a voltage source
[18:15:07] <cehteh> there are current regulators
[18:15:45] <julius> it has a CC potentiometer, is that not what i need?
[18:16:17] <cehteh> mhm
[18:16:33] <cehteh> maybe then .. dunno get some german or english manual
[18:18:15] <Jartza> oh
[18:18:22] <Jartza> there are faster AVRs
[18:18:26] <Jartza> mostly xmegas
[18:18:51] <cehteh> but not *that* much faster
[18:19:05] <cehteh> 40mhz? or more?
[18:19:27] <Jartza> 32MHz
[18:20:33] <cehteh> i tihnk with a stm32 you would have more luck booting linux
[18:21:07] <cehteh> still needs some emulation layer, but that acts more like adding non existent hardware, hypervisor
[18:21:33] <cehteh> possibly you can run some arm code natively or at least have a simple jit translation
[18:21:51] <cehteh> and some beefy stm32 are around 200mhz iirc
[18:22:25] <cehteh> *but* why not just buy a raspberry pi then
[18:22:51] <Niebieski> Because AVR costs like 10% of the pi.
[18:23:20] <cehteh> i meant in contrast to the stm32
[18:23:37] <cehteh> then pi (zero) is maybe 10% more expensive
[18:24:00] <cehteh> and when you think about that cost then AVR's are very expensive considering their performance
[18:24:08] <Niebieski> Yeah, I would like to get PI zero.
[18:24:28] <Jartza> http://whereismypizero.com/
[18:24:29] <Jartza> :)
[18:25:02] <cehteh> haha
[18:25:13] <cehteh> i thought meanwhile the shortage is gone
[18:25:43] <Niebieski> I have to wait for it to be available on the distributors where I live.
[18:25:48] <Niebieski> Which takes some time.
[18:25:54] <cehteh> Niebieski: pollin had some .. but out of stock now
[18:26:05] <cehteh> where are you?
[18:26:10] <Niebieski> Africa!
[18:26:14] <cehteh> outch
[18:26:34] <cehteh> well the zero is cheap but it doesnt really replace even a simple computer
[18:26:41] <cehteh> better go with a normal pi then
[18:26:59] <Niebieski> What do you mean by simple computer ?
[18:27:18] <cehteh> the zero lacks too much to be useable except for some advanced embedded stuff
[18:27:38] <cehteh> i mean useable desktop replacement with little performance
[18:28:59] <cehteh> normal pi2 can substitute a desktop computer for light tasks (simple office, browsing) and even handle a lot media playback
[18:29:00] <Lambda-Aurigae> if you could easiy do bare metal programming on the pi0 it would be more usable, in my opinion.
[18:29:12] <cehteh> yes for that ok
[18:29:18] <cehteh> but then drivers are the issue
[18:29:29] <Lambda-Aurigae> as I said, "IF"
[18:29:45] <cehteh> decent stripped down RT enabled linux kernel is possibly the best way
[18:30:02] <cehteh> some people do bare metal programming on the pi
[18:30:07] <cehteh> but its pita
[18:30:11] <Lambda-Aurigae> yeah
[18:30:12] <Lambda-Aurigae> I have
[18:30:19] <Lambda-Aurigae> I have an rPI-B+
[18:30:35] <cehteh> yet alone the boot is awkward
[18:30:51] <cehteh> i have one of the first pi's .. 256MB ram only
[18:31:24] <Jartza> I rather low-level cortex m-series
[18:31:58] <Lambda-Aurigae> overall I find it kind of useless.
[18:32:25] <cehteh> it has some uses .. but many people overrate it
[18:32:47] <cehteh> there was only one reason for the pi, that was a simple desktop computer as cheap as possible
[18:32:53] <Lambda-Aurigae> as a learning platform I can see...which is what it's made for.
[18:32:55] <cehteh> and that was a succes
[18:33:04] <Lambda-Aurigae> for me, it's useless.
[18:33:27] <Lambda-Aurigae> which is why it's for sale.
[18:33:29] <cehteh> but anyone thinking he can substitute a file server or do whatever gloy things with it is at fault
[18:33:44] <Lambda-Aurigae> it's functional as a video player.
[18:33:47] <Niebieski> It was just something new, having a card that will shows you the desktop if you plugged it into a monitor.
[18:33:50] <Lambda-Aurigae> but that's what I have 4 roku sticks for.
[18:34:29] <cehteh> attach keyboard, mouse, old monitor and you have a small dektop for causual mail reading, writing some texts in a lightweight office or text editor, simple browsing, some educational stuff
[18:34:32] <cehteh> thats good and works
[18:35:01] <Lambda-Aurigae> you forgot hdmi to vga adapter for old monitor.
[18:35:03] <Niebieski> Maybe it will get better in the future.
[18:35:20] <cehteh> or composite :D
[18:35:20] <Lambda-Aurigae> the odroid-C2 blows away even the rpi-3
[18:35:40] <cehteh> yeah i speak about price odroid costs more
[18:35:48] <Lambda-Aurigae> not by much.
[18:35:58] <Lambda-Aurigae> 40 dollars for faster processor and twice the ram.
[18:35:59] <cehteh> for some people thats a big reason
[18:36:16] <cehteh> i gues Niebieski searches for some really cheap solution
[18:36:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> having 2GB of ram makes it a usable desktop replacement for me.
[18:36:39] <cehteh> zram ftw :D
[18:36:58] <cehteh> 256MB ram was not enough, but even worked for a small distro
[18:37:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> yup.
[18:37:12] <cehteh> but 1G is decent for *simple* ude
[18:37:14] <cehteh> use
[18:37:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> as for microcontroller platforms, I prefer the AVR overall.
[18:37:30] <cehteh> yep
[18:37:32] <Lambda-Aurigae> and PIC32 for a next step up.
[18:37:54] <cehteh> toolset and simplicity and robustness outweights every bad parts
[18:37:54] <Lambda-Aurigae> then the ARM world.
[18:38:13] <cehteh> i'd skip over pic .. stm32 is cheap
[18:38:28] <cehteh> actually you can get some stm32 for less than avrs
[18:38:30] <Lambda-Aurigae> pic32 is cheap too...at least, when they send me free samples.
[18:38:40] <cehteh> but the toolset sux
[18:38:46] <Lambda-Aurigae> it's gcc
[18:38:49] <cehteh> ah
[18:38:53] <cehteh> thats new to me
[18:38:56] <Lambda-Aurigae> pic32 is a mips core with pic peripherals
[18:39:02] <cehteh> ok
[18:39:15] <Lambda-Aurigae> you can use the xc32 compiler and have limited optimization or pay for it.
[18:39:15] <Lambda-Aurigae> or
[18:39:24] <cehteh> well still .. i'd prolly go for stm32 next, because most multicopter controllers use that
[18:39:25] <Lambda-Aurigae> you can grab the source, do some mods, and compile it yourself.
[18:39:36] <Lambda-Aurigae> stm32 has one problem for me.
[18:39:42] <Lambda-Aurigae> it's not available in a dip package
[18:39:49] <Lambda-Aurigae> yes, you can get dip adapter boards
[18:40:06] <Lambda-Aurigae> but with the pic32mx270f256b, I don't need adapters.
[18:40:22] <Lambda-Aurigae> and it does usb without an external crystal or oscillator which I love.
[18:40:27] <cehteh> there are a lot devel boards
[18:40:40] <Lambda-Aurigae> of course there are.
[18:40:47] <cehteh> but the delicate I/O power and 3.3V adds some drawbacks
[18:40:49] <Lambda-Aurigae> but I haven't been able to get any samples of them.
[18:43:43] <Lambda-Aurigae> and I can get the pic32mx270f256b for 4.32 USD each.
[18:44:20] <Lambda-Aurigae> 50MHz/83dmips, 256K flash, 64K sram, 28pin dip
[18:45:48] <Niebieski> How to compare computing power of a microcontroller against like PC processor ?
[18:46:04] <Niebieski> MIPS ?
[18:46:22] <Lambda-Aurigae> dmips is one way.
[18:47:05] <Lambda-Aurigae> my 1.4GHz athlon FX-4150 runs 8035 bogomips per core...4 core.
[18:47:48] <Lambda-Aurigae> you could use dhrystone or whetstone tests
[18:48:19] <Niebieski> So I can't look it up from datasheets ?
[18:48:32] <Lambda-Aurigae> on microcontrollers, yeah.
[18:48:54] <Lambda-Aurigae> most AVRs can run approaching 1MIPS per 1MHz
[18:49:09] <Lambda-Aurigae> depending on the commands used.
[18:49:30] <Lambda-Aurigae> actually, the standard AVR core runs at that level.
[18:49:57] <Lambda-Aurigae> and they top out at 8, 16, or 20MHz,,,possibly others depending on chip and suply voltage.
[18:54:37] <Lambda-Aurigae> by comparison, the 80386 running at 33MHz measured around 11 or 12 MIPS
[18:57:06] <cehteh> actually i often slow down avr's, for many tasks slower speed is sufficient and more power conserving
[18:57:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> yup.
[18:57:36] <Lambda-Aurigae> I run them at 1MHz all the time.
[18:59:59] <cehteh> 128khz from watchdog OSC
[19:00:12] <cehteh> turning the 8mhz OSC off
[19:00:22] <Lambda-Aurigae> that works too.
[19:01:12] <cehteh> or my debugging tried pre-logic analyzer 62.5khz, 50BAUD
[19:05:33] <Niebieski> I like this too
http://tinyvga.com/avr-vga
[19:05:47] <Lambda-Aurigae> bah
[19:05:53] <Lambda-Aurigae> octapentavega is better.
[19:05:55] <Thrashbarg> bah!
[19:06:44] <Lambda-Aurigae> octapentaveega
[19:06:47] <Lambda-Aurigae> https://github.com/Jartza/octapentaveega
[19:08:58] <Thrashbarg> neat
[19:09:07] <Lambda-Aurigae> that's Jartza's baby
[19:09:28] <Lambda-Aurigae> monochrome with 1 attiny85, 8 colors with 3 of them.
[19:09:32] <Niebieski> Haha cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1QWNDck0yU
[19:09:33] <Thrashbarg> yeah
[19:09:56] <Lambda-Aurigae> bitbanged 9600bps uart
[19:10:05] <Lambda-Aurigae> uses all 512 bytes of sram for the video buffer
[19:10:12] <Lambda-Aurigae> written in assembly.
[19:10:16] <Thrashbarg> it'd have to be
[19:10:25] <Lambda-Aurigae> he did it first in C...first iteration
[19:10:30] <Thrashbarg> ah
[19:10:37] <Thrashbarg> good luck :P
[19:10:43] <Lambda-Aurigae> then redid it in assembly to get lots more features.
[19:10:49] <Thrashbarg> yeah
[19:11:01] <Lambda-Aurigae> the feature set is incredible.
[19:11:56] <Niebieski> By why not bitmaping ?
[19:11:59] <Niebieski> but*
[19:12:29] <Niebieski> The memory huh.
[19:12:52] <Lambda-Aurigae> bitmapping what?
[19:13:04] <Tom_itx> bits
[19:13:10] <Tom_itx> kibbles n bits
[19:13:32] <Niebieski> I mean like taking control of single pixels.
[19:13:45] <Thrashbarg> 4096 total pixels isn't much to control
[19:13:54] <Lambda-Aurigae> how many pixels do you want?
[19:14:13] <Niebieski> The full res.
[19:14:18] <Lambda-Aurigae> full res of what?
[19:14:21] <Lambda-Aurigae> VGA?
[19:14:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> 640x480?
[19:14:25] <Thrashbarg> Small. Fast. Cheap. Choose two
[19:14:44] <Lambda-Aurigae> that's 307200 pixels
[19:14:58] <Lambda-Aurigae> or, 38400 bytes of ram
[19:15:10] <Lambda-Aurigae> the attiny85 has 512 bytes of ram
[19:15:20] <Niebieski> We cannot extend it ?
[19:15:27] <Thrashbarg> noo
[19:15:28] <Thrashbarg> *no
[19:15:42] <Lambda-Aurigae> it is an 8pin 20MHz microcontroller with 8K of flash and 512 bytes of sram
[19:15:57] <Lambda-Aurigae> no, you can't expand the memory.
[19:16:10] <Thrashbarg> there are things about to use SPI RAM as a framebuffer but it's sort of tricky
[19:16:16] <Niebieski> Like using external storage.
[19:16:37] <Lambda-Aurigae> Niebieski, consider how long it takes to access external memory.
[19:16:50] <Lambda-Aurigae> and how fast you have to shove that data out to the monitor.
[19:17:23] <Niebieski> I wouldn't need to put the data that fast right ?
[19:17:29] <Lambda-Aurigae> external serial sram can be accessed at 20MHz give or take.
[19:17:41] <Thrashbarg> Small. Fast. Cheap. Choose two
[19:18:00] <Niebieski> Assuming 30 FPS each frame is say 40K bytes.
[19:18:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> the idea behind the octapentaveega was to make it small and simple using a minimal microcontroller
[19:18:27] <Thrashbarg> small, cheap, but not fast (bandwidth for video)
[19:20:02] <Lambda-Aurigae> I've done 800x600 vga with an atmega1284p and some external serial sram chips....but I didn't run the vga through the microcontroller...just used it to toggle clock line on and off from an external oscillator.
[19:20:16] <Thrashbarg> yup
[19:20:35] <Thrashbarg> I've done 80x24 text on a 25.175MHz ATmega, had to overclock it from 20MHz
[19:20:48] <Lambda-Aurigae> easily doable too.
[19:20:50] <Thrashbarg> I think I lost that stuff in a hard drive crash
[19:20:51] <Thrashbarg> yeah
[19:20:56] <Lambda-Aurigae> well, not easily but definitely doable.
[19:21:16] <Lambda-Aurigae> what Jartza did with the octapentaveega I find incredible..
[19:21:25] <Thrashbarg> yeah
[19:21:31] <Lambda-Aurigae> 3 chips running in sync without any external sync other than the master clock.
[19:21:58] <cehteh> next project: liquid nitrogen cooled attiny at 80Mhz on 7V :)
[19:22:19] <Lambda-Aurigae> bah..run it up to 200MHz!
[19:22:51] <cehteh> liquid helium cooling?
[19:23:05] <Lambda-Aurigae> naa...liquid N2 should be fine.
[19:23:11] <Lambda-Aurigae> or maybe liquid O2
[19:23:33] <Niebieski> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL0RwEtTN70
[19:24:02] <Niebieski> Here hes not using ANSI character but rather 'big' pixels.
[19:24:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> yup.
[19:24:41] <Lambda-Aurigae> actually, they are just ASCII character codes
[19:24:49] <Lambda-Aurigae> using a different font.
[19:24:50] <Lambda-Aurigae> I think.
[19:25:02] <Lambda-Aurigae> the chips have 2 fonts on them.
[19:25:18] <Lambda-Aurigae> plain text and graphic mode fonts
[19:25:52] <Thrashbarg> like the TRS-80 I imagine
[19:26:01] <Lambda-Aurigae> similar but different.
[19:26:06] <Lambda-Aurigae> nicely usable though.
[19:26:15] <Thrashbarg> ok
[19:27:11] <Lambda-Aurigae> and as I recall you can switch fonts part way down the screen.
[19:27:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> so you can do graphics at the top and text at the bottom...or versa visa.
[19:32:44] <julius> can a bit of static on a mosfet gate kill it? i mean Vgs is only +-20v
[19:33:01] <Casper> sure
[19:33:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> it can
[19:33:19] <Lambda-Aurigae> modern ones have some protection
[19:33:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> but they are still static sensitive.
[19:33:37] <Casper> the breaking point is somewhere between maybe 20 and 100V... so not that much
[19:33:44] <Casper> static can be in the hundreds of volts
[19:34:22] <Lambda-Aurigae> the gate is basically a sensitive solid state capacitor.
[19:34:43] <Lambda-Aurigae> they work by charging up the gate like you would a cap anyhow.
[19:34:45] <julius> and some ma will probably do the trick?
[19:34:54] <Lambda-Aurigae> but it is a very thin membrane that can breakdown easily.
[19:35:11] <Lambda-Aurigae> yes...
[19:35:26] <Lambda-Aurigae> it doesn't take much current...it's all in the voltage level really.
[19:35:56] <julius> ok
[19:36:31] <Lambda-Aurigae> you don't get much in the way of curent flow through the gate. you get current flow as it is charging the gate capacitance.
[19:36:45] <julius> now when i use my computer power supply to get +5v and +12v and it is still connected to the circuit but off, is the circuit grounded?
[19:36:55] <Lambda-Aurigae> but once it's charged no current will flow.
[19:37:16] <julius> yes i understood that for fast rise and fall times you need up to 1a
[19:37:38] <Lambda-Aurigae> umm...dunno on that...depends on if the GND pins on the computer are really grounded or isolated.
[19:38:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> I would guess that 5V and 12V gnd is connected to mains GND but not sure..never really measured to see.
[19:38:45] <julius> if grounded, would i be able to measure a low resistance between psu gnd and a blank part of my heater on the wall?
[19:38:46] <Lambda-Aurigae> 5V and 12V gnd are connected to each other though.
[19:39:00] <Lambda-Aurigae> if that heater is also grounded, yes.
[19:39:13] <julius> it should be, im in germany
[19:39:16] <Lambda-Aurigae> I would just measure from the ground pin on the powersupply plug and the black line on the 5V or 12V connection.
[19:39:41] <julius> good idea
[19:39:45] <julius> will do that tomorrow
[19:41:08] <theBear> remember that grounded isn't the same as a 0v reading, or if you prefer at the same voltage as ground at a given moment
[19:41:25] <Lambda-Aurigae> GND is just a reference point.
[19:41:31] <julius> http://www.semtech.com/images/datasheet/transient_voltage_protection_of_mosfets.pdf says there that you should protect Vds from inductive loads with a TVS diode between Drain and Source. but if theres a diode over the motor, doesnt that do the trick?
[19:41:55] <Lambda-Aurigae> julius, yes, that's what that diode is for.
[19:42:08] <theBear> in this case it's not just that, but also a safety-related "feature" or concept at the same time as a convenient theoretical 0 to read volts in relation to
[19:42:34] <Lambda-Aurigae> when you shut the motor off, the collapse of the magnetic field will cause a back pulse, with a voltage higher than you put in in fact.
[19:42:53] <julius> in the schematic the diode is over drain - source, my circuit got a diode parallel to the motor
[19:43:08] <Lambda-Aurigae> julius, think.
[19:43:15] <theBear> and i haven't yet seen a pc supply, pre or post atx (which means way back before the turn of the century,) that didn't have both the 3rd pin on the power input 'socket' (kettle cord hole) and all black/"0v"/gnd wires coming out the other end of it quite firmly connected to both its own metal case and each other
[19:43:41] <Lambda-Aurigae> what is the diode for,,,at either point.
[19:43:46] <julius> the same
[19:43:55] <Lambda-Aurigae> to catch and dissipate a reverse pulse.
[19:44:09] <Lambda-Aurigae> if on the motor then you can't reverse the motor.
[19:44:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> if on the mosfet then you can use 4 of them to build an H-bridge and reverse the motor.
[19:44:37] <julius> ah
[19:44:44] <julius> that makes sense
[19:45:06] <julius> my water pump only goes "forward" so no need for that
[19:45:26] <Lambda-Aurigae> so the diode across the motor is a better solution as it protects the whole circuit.
[19:45:49] <theBear> and in many places it isn't legal to sell something with exposed metal parts like that (slightly more technical but that's close enough for now) without that metal being firmly wired to the mains/incoming cable ground/3rd pin, most places don't have definate rules re: the output side tho, outside of things like "even 500vac in any combination on active/neutral (not-ground) pins at the mains/power-in side must not be able to make its way out to a
[19:45:49] <theBear> finger/whatever touching any of the output/dc/low voltage side wires" kinda stuff
[19:47:07] <julius> theBear, yeah that makes sense too
[19:48:03] <theBear> sidenotes: that mangetic/collapse/higher voltage is how most car ignitions make sparks ("ignition coil" is a big hint what bit i'm referring to) and while diodes are good at clamping any other-way-round kinda spikey nasties, they do it HARD and therefore if not quite big in relation to the thing making those nasties will die, often sooner than later
[19:48:48] <julius> interresting
[19:48:56] <Lambda-Aurigae> a magnetic field will collapse faster than you can generally create it.
[19:49:10] <Niebieski> I'm going to go now. Thanks for your time guys.
[19:49:26] <Lambda-Aurigae> hence, larger voltage out than what you put in....although, lower current out...
[19:49:32] <Lambda-Aurigae> gotta conserve energy after all.
[19:51:10] <julius> :)
[19:52:55] <theBear> will it always collapse faster, or only given certain conditions, for example a ferromagnetic or lack of core, but not ANY potential core material you may be able to pick, even if it may have no practical usage
[19:52:58] <theBear> ?
[19:53:38] <Lambda-Aurigae> theBear, that would be a question for a physicist or expert in magnetic fields.
[19:53:48] <julius> theres a 1 mohm resistor between gate and source in my circuit to pull the mosfet to ground when not used. looking at that .pdf i should also add a TVS between gate and source with a voltage level of 15-20v to safe keep the gate...would you agree?
[19:54:09] <Lambda-Aurigae> TVS?
[19:54:24] <julius> transient diode
[19:54:27] <julius> or soemthing
[19:54:49] <Lambda-Aurigae> the 1M resistor is likely to draw the mosfet gate charge down when you turn it off.
[19:55:09] <julius> yes that was the idea
[19:55:34] <julius> the diode would be for protection when my clumsy hands touch the cirucit for whatever reason
[19:55:42] <Lambda-Aurigae> unfortunately, don't know a lot about mosfet circuit design...wish I knew more.
[19:56:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> I have never had one die on me though.
[19:56:19] <julius> on youtube there are a million videos about mosfet things nobody needs to know
[19:56:31] <julius> mostly pictures whats inside
[19:56:42] <Lambda-Aurigae> on youtube there are a near infinite number of videos that nobody needs to watch.
[19:56:49] <julius> very annoying. not one example calculation for switching losses for example
[19:56:53] <Lambda-Aurigae> specially ones about electronics, engineering, or making things.
[19:57:02] <julius> true
[19:57:14] <theBear> Lambda-Aurigae, aww, you sounded so expert for a minute there
[19:57:15] <Lambda-Aurigae> why the hell anybody would go to youtube for that kind of thing is beyond me.
[19:57:22] <julius> just today i stumbled about a guy naming his channel "blabla unboxing channel"
[19:57:30] <Lambda-Aurigae> theBear, me? expert? fuck, I'm just a hobby hacker.
[19:57:50] <Lambda-Aurigae> never had an electronics course in my life.
[19:57:57] <julius> theBear, do you know any good sources for mosfet circuit designs or books?
[19:58:13] <Lambda-Aurigae> I learned electronics from Forrest M. Mims III
[19:58:23] <theBear> there's this new thing called "the internet", perhaps you've heard of it ?
[19:59:15] <julius> sure, here and there are good informations
[19:59:30] <theBear> i got a good chunk of my learning from mr mims, but i'm not sure where you would even go to buy such a thing these days (tho i am sure there are a set of the mini-notebook series in pdf form floating around webland somewhere, not that i would ever download such a thing, even if i did still own most of the actual books involved :-] )
[19:59:38] <julius> but a guide on howto design circuits for pwm i did not find yet
[20:00:50] <Lambda-Aurigae> theBear, online...Mims still writes and sells his books.
[20:01:30] <Lambda-Aurigae> http://www.forrestmims.org/publications.html
[20:01:31] <julius> "mr mims" ?
[20:01:35] <julius> ah
[20:02:01] <Lambda-Aurigae> I now have 3 different releases of his Getting Started in Electronics books in hardcopy.
[20:03:08] <Lambda-Aurigae> one is the original I bought when I was like 12.
[20:03:26] <Lambda-Aurigae> along with a bunch of the mini-notebooks I bought back then.
[20:03:35] <Lambda-Aurigae> I spent waaay too much money as a kid at radio shack.
[20:05:08] <julius> could have bought drugs
[20:05:13] <theBear> no shit ? he must be gettin' on... they weren't exactly newest release shelfs in the stores when i got the first few (not just notebooks, couple fullsize/length books too) as a kid
[20:05:25] <theBear> heh, my mini notebooks came from the ratshack too
[20:05:40] <Lambda-Aurigae> theBear, that's where he sold his stuff to start as I recall.
[20:05:55] <julius> 1.3 million copies apparently
[20:06:04] <theBear> might even have more than one of the general-learning-stuff books, maybe even that one
[20:06:36] <theBear> Lambda-Aurigae, over the years i think he been discovered and sold far and wide 'cos he's got such a good style that so many people like
[20:06:52] <Lambda-Aurigae> and those books were actually handwritten.
[20:07:16] <Lambda-Aurigae> and, yes, GSIE and the mini notebooks were originally sold in rat shack.
[20:08:23] <Lambda-Aurigae> 1970 or 1972 was the start of those.
[20:09:12] <julius> you mean radio shack?
[20:09:22] <Lambda-Aurigae> no,,,mims' books
[20:09:25] <Lambda-Aurigae> for rat shack
[20:09:32] <julius> ah
[20:09:35] <Lambda-Aurigae> by rat shack, yes, I mean radio shack.
[20:09:48] <julius> ah^2
[20:10:00] <Lambda-Aurigae> it used to be a good store.
[20:10:09] <Lambda-Aurigae> then it turned into the cellphone store.
[20:10:24] <Lambda-Aurigae> radio shack, you've got questions, we've got blank stares.
[20:16:25] <theBear> heh, new players, so innocent, so unaware of the most ancient of casual slurs and poor wordplay
[20:16:44] <Lambda-Aurigae> I know, right?
[20:20:21] <Lambda-Aurigae> Among Forrest Mims' many accomplishments, he was the first person to realize that light-emitting diodes (LEDs) had the ability to not only emit light, but also to sense light.[49] This dual-action (emission/detection) of LEDs or “Mims Effect” was unknown before his discovery.
[20:20:28] <Lambda-Aurigae> that's something I didn't know.
[20:20:46] <Lambda-Aurigae> he did that in 1962 even...in high school.
[20:21:03] <Lambda-Aurigae> or, came up with the idea then and experimented with it.
[20:21:48] <theBear> wow ! what a guy ! pioneering stuff AND introducing probably 10s if not 100s of thousands to the joys of electronickery !
[20:21:59] <Lambda-Aurigae> yeah.
[20:22:04] <Lambda-Aurigae> it's a fascinating read.
[20:22:14] <theBear> and erm, yeah, getting on in the old age dept fo' sho'
[20:22:17] <Lambda-Aurigae> seems the highschool thing was with a CDS photocell in reverse.
[20:22:41] <Lambda-Aurigae> he served in the USAF in vietnam...so, my father's age.
[20:23:05] <Lambda-Aurigae> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Mims#Using_LEDs_as_narrow_band_light_sensors
[20:23:13] <Lambda-Aurigae> that section is a great read too.