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[00:23:17] <inflex> crap.... looks like Microchip may yet acquire Atmel... :(
[00:23:27] <inflex> was on the cards a few years ago, sad to see it happening again
[00:24:27] <nuxil> sup
[00:25:02] <nuxil> atmel got sold or is getting sold or might be sold. im confused :)
[00:25:15] <nuxil> ?
[00:26:18] <inflex> Microchip has put a juicy offer on the table to acquire Atmel
[00:26:56] <inflex> http://ir.atmel.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=950119
[00:28:21] <nuxil> microchip is the pic chips right ?
[00:28:27] <nuxil> *make
[00:29:06] <inflex> yes
[00:29:11] <nuxil> i dont like the name pic
[00:30:25] <inflex> My biggest concern is that Microchip will bastardise the AVR
[00:30:45] <inflex> The acquisition alone will make a lot of designers pause for thought
[00:30:54] <nuxil> its a slang for penis in my language/dialect.. "din pikk" pronounced "pic"
[00:31:51] <lald> Didn't Atmel just get acquired by someone last year?
[00:32:46] <Casper> inflex: that is what I'm worried
[00:33:57] <nuxil> inflex, or we get better chips in the future. pic knowlege/technology combined with atmels knowlege/technology
[00:35:14] <inflex> Maybe *new* chips but I worry about them deliberately castrating supply of existing AVRs
[00:35:23] <inflex> (that said, Atmel did that themselves well enough a few years ago)
[00:35:24] <nuxil> but might get so big on the market that they dominate totaly and can set up the prise on the chips qiote a bit
[00:35:55] <inflex> There's also toolkit marketing philosophies/strategies.
[00:36:23] <inflex> PIC has usually been cheap with expensive tool chains; AVR has been a bit more expensive but free tool chains.
[01:10:49] <phinxy> Would it be beneficial to have a micro with a real time clock to sleep when its not in use? is it gonna save energy even if it wakes up each second and updates clock variables?
[01:11:02] <phinxy> or can triggers do stuff even when its sleeping?
[01:15:59] <Casper> if saving power is a good thing, then yes it is beneficial
[01:16:10] <Casper> if you don't care about power, then find another reason? :D
[03:16:54] <phinxy> atmega128 says it can be woken up from sleep from Timer2. does that mean timer3 (16but) cant wake it up
[03:17:10] <phinxy> even if timer3 have a trigger
[03:18:29] <gevorg> if it has an interrupt, and you choose a sleep mode where the timer still runs, it can wake the chip up
[03:22:20] <phinxy> is that "active lock domains"? i guess clk IO is for regular timers
[03:23:20] <gevorg> not sure what you're saying, but if timer2 is for RTC, then it will keep running even in deep sleep modes
[03:23:33] <gevorg> or rather, it is supposed to, to keep the track of time
[03:24:33] <phinxy> timer 2 is a 8bit timer tough. and its the only thing listed in wake up sources
[03:25:31] <phinxy> okay so the datasheet table does not make much sense but lower down they explain everything
[03:25:45] <phinxy> look up table
[03:25:54] <phinxy> for the sleep modes
[03:30:45] <gevorg> usually watchdog is an option as well
[06:33:10] <phinxy> ill promise never to try get sleep working again just let me figure out what ive broken in the code
[06:33:46] <gevorg> what happened ?
[06:45:27] <phinxy> too high voltage to the oled display caused it to turn off/on every 30 sec
[06:58:01] <gevorg> you mean it now just randomly turns on/off with a 30 second period
[06:58:02] <gevorg> >
[06:58:05] <gevorg> ?
[06:59:37] <gevorg> qy
[07:27:05] <phinxy> gevorg, yeah it did but its fine now after i went down to 4.5 V
[07:27:17] <phinxy> it happend at random intervals so i figured it could not be the code
[07:28:52] <phinxy> Does anyone know a guide or text that tells exactly what happens to code after waking up from sleep?
[07:29:25] <phinxy> i cant figure out if it starts running where the interrupt happend or if it just goes to next line ignoring the interrupt
[07:31:47] <gevorg> don't know a text, but when you're asleep, and an interrupt goes off, the chip does the corresponding instruction which is in the interrupt vector (the first section of flash), and usually there is an rjmp or jmp towards the handler
[07:35:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> phinxy, the datasheet for the microcontroller in use.
[07:36:54] <phinxy> i dont do assembly but ok
[07:41:53] <phinxy> executes the interrupt routine, and
[07:41:53] <phinxy> resumes execution from the instruction following SLEEP.
[07:42:18] <phinxy> in the interrupt i decided to put it to sleep again but it really seems like it does not go back to sleep
[07:42:38] <phinxy> maybe there is a delay the micro needs to be awake before going back to sleep
[07:44:30] <phinxy> appearantly theres more to it. its a bad idea to go to sleep inside the ISR
[07:46:42] <cehteh> eh yes
[07:47:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> again, it's in the datasheet.
[07:47:39] <gevorg> well after your isr gets executed, and after it's reti (return interrupt), it will take the last flash address from stack, and jump to it, doing all of that in hardware
[07:47:49] <gevorg> that's the part of continuing from where it slept
[07:49:14] <cehteh> hint: i have one sleep function in my scheduler which i call when it shoud go to sleep and for debugging i using one led (the D13 on arduinos) to signal sleeps, its on when the CPU does something and off when sleeping
[07:49:59] <cehteh> that gives a good indication if sleeping works, using duty cycle measurments with a dmm translates into cpu load directly
[07:51:54] <phinxy> gevorg, the thing is the interrupt is a 1s timer and i do all the seconds++ minutes++ hours++ in there so it felt natural to just put it to sleep from inside the ISR
[07:53:40] <cehteh> phinxy: that may explode your stack
[07:54:48] <gevorg> so you want the mcu to keep track of time, only, and do nothing else ?
[07:54:59] <phinxy> because when you go to sleep a lot of memory is pushed to the stack and if its inside the ISR its uses some kind of interrupt stack? haha
[07:55:00] <cehteh> first you need to enable your wakeup sources (sei()?) before sleeping. then when something wakes the sleep it may call an interrupt putting another stackframe on the stack
[07:56:01] <gevorg> well stack problems can be solved
[07:56:04] <cehteh> let your mainloop do the sleep, and possibly also your date calculations, then in the ISR you do the least neccessary, which might be just incrementing one single counter
[07:56:08] <gevorg> if you don't need the stack, that is
[07:56:33] <cehteh> gevorg: maybe but thats still far from 'mainstream' coding practice, not so good idea imo
[07:56:48] <phinxy> doing if clause statements also could use the stack right
[07:57:15] <cehteh> function calls and local variables need stackspace
[07:57:43] <gevorg> yeah, true as well
[07:58:04] <cehteh> while both is subject of the optimizer
[07:58:05] <gevorg> cehteh's method seems like the correct one, phinxy, you should probably go with that
[07:58:59] <gevorg> like while (1) { do calculations; sleep } in you main, and in your isr only (sec ++; if sec == 60: min ++; sec = 0; etc..)
[07:59:00] <cehteh> phinxy: i could invite you to look at the scheduler stuff i am doing, its still in its infancy state, but meant just for such things,
[07:59:47] <cehteh> gevorg: i would only sec++ in the isr and have a seconds_to_date() function somewhere else
[08:00:16] <cehteh> actually date calculation can be surprisingly complex when you want to do them correctly
[08:00:30] <gevorg> depends on how much you will be calling that seconds_to_date
[08:00:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> if you go to sleep from within the isr then you wake back up in the isr.
[08:00:39] <cehteh> yes sure
[08:00:43] <gevorg> if it's not rare, then you'll be wasting calculation time
[08:01:14] <cehteh> yeah but usually that price to pay is ok for cleaner code
[08:01:44] <cehteh> you may also store memoize the result if you really need it frequently
[08:02:17] <cehteh> while (1) { date = get_date(); do calculations; sleep }
[08:02:54] <cehteh> Lambda_Aurigae: the problem is when the ISR gets called recursively .. sleeps again etc
[08:03:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[08:03:13] <cehteh> so i wont recommend that practice
[08:03:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> the stack will fill up pretty quick.
[08:03:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> causing a stack overflow
[08:03:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> causing a chip reset.
[08:04:10] <cehteh> or other weird things
[08:04:23] <cehteh> its has no stack protection, reset would be the best
[08:04:42] <cehteh> usually it just rund havoc and does random things which may end into a reset
[08:05:14] <gevorg> hmm, that's an interesting question
[08:05:17] <cehteh> but may as well do some pretty bad undefined stuff as well
[08:05:40] <cehteh> imagine it accidentally turns on a heater and stucks in a endless loop ..
[08:05:41] <gevorg> if we set the stack outside of the sram range, and do a ret, will it read 0x00, 0x00 from stack and do a reset
[08:05:48] <gevorg> what do you think guys ?
[08:06:18] <cehteh> first it overwrites any data at the bottom
[08:06:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> it will read whatever the stack pointer is pointing at.
[08:06:35] <cehteh> completely trashing your programs state
[08:06:40] <phinxy> its messy because im using the same interrupt to wake up the micro and also to make it sleep
[08:06:41] <cehteh> welcome to undefined land
[08:06:52] <cehteh> your cpu may explode or turn into gold
[08:06:59] <cehteh> nothing is defined
[08:07:10] <gevorg> Lambda_Aurigae: stack pointer is pointing outside of ram, what does it read ?
[08:07:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> with the avr you can change your stack location...that is used for doing multitasking actually.
[08:07:14] <phinxy> nevermind ill use a sleep scheduler
[08:07:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> aahh..I missed the outside sram part...yeah...should read 0x00...but could be undefined random data too.
[08:08:04] <gevorg> let's check
[08:08:28] <cehteh> isnt the memoy mirroed in different modes at the addressspace .. and i/o registers, even cpu registers are memory mapped too
[08:08:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> I've never read outside sram range.
[08:09:25] <cehteh> chances that you get a clean reset by stack overflow are rather small .. before that you trash a lot data and state and your program does anything it should never do
[08:09:29] <gevorg> cehteh: should be, but the gpu regs are the first 32 addresses, then 64 io, then extended io .. etc
[08:21:29] <phinxy> aha, when i simply use sleep_mode() the micro goes to sleep. but if i use the slightly longer atomic example "sleep_enable();sei();sleep_cpu();sleep_disable();" it didnt go to sleep
[08:24:00] <gevorg> reading from outside of ram space gives 0x00, hurray
[08:24:07] <gevorg> although, i need to test it once more
[08:27:12] <gevorg> yeah, it reads 0x00
[08:28:39] <gevorg> wait whaaat
[08:29:00] <cehteh> phinxy: then something is wrong there
[08:29:24] <cehteh> phinxy: did you call 'set_sleep_mode' before?
[08:30:22] <cehteh> you wake up by timer .. whats your timers speed (prescaler)?
[08:31:55] <phinxy> cehteh, no i relied on that it should be idle default. im using it now tough, together with sleep_mode()
[08:32:16] <phinxy> 16mhz / 256 compare match 1 second
[08:32:57] <cehteh> 16 bit counter?
[08:33:00] <phinxy> Yes
[08:33:20] <cehteh> 8 bit wont be enough for 1sec :D
[08:33:46] <cehteh> well i am using 8 bit counters where compmatch and overflow isrs
[08:34:23] <cehteh> well it 'should' work when you do it correctly
[08:34:36] <cehteh> dunno whats wrong there
[08:35:05] <phinxy> cehteh when i did the math i couldnt figure it out with 8bit counter
[08:35:36] <cehteh> yes its not that easy, i am using a priority queue for scheduling
[08:35:54] <phinxy> it would be neat to use timer2
[08:36:01] <cehteh> 8 bit even at /1024 is too fast
[08:36:02] <phinxy> and go in the power_down
[08:36:16] <cehteh> yeah thats possible
[08:36:36] <phinxy> im gonna try that as soon as i solve the next issue im having
[08:36:48] <phinxy> do you happen to have any values for the 8bit counter
[08:36:55] <phinxy> like your compare match
[08:37:04] <phinxy> or did you say youre using overflow?
[08:37:05] <cehteh> its all dynamically calculated
[08:37:10] <phinxy> ooo
[08:37:26] <cehteh> the overflow goes to 256 of course, increments one counter
[08:37:57] <cehteh> and the compmatch is calculated for the next pending event if its withhin the next 256 counts
[08:38:37] <cehteh> and for debugging i am clocking the cpu at 62.5kHz now :D .. its nice when you can watch how it works
[08:39:08] <phinxy> you could almost see the logic gates flip with the naked eye at that speed
[08:39:21] <cehteh> i had serial down to 50Baud :)
[08:39:41] <cehteh> debugging the terminal code, rendering the lines
[08:41:15] <phinxy> 30 times a second the timer needs to wake up, do the computation and go back to sleep
[08:41:39] <phinxy> i wonder if it saves more power than the 16bit counter in idle. versus the power_down
[08:41:43] <phinxy> probably does
[08:42:19] <cehteh> i plan to support either timer later, but now i am only working with the 8bit counter
[08:44:27] <cehteh> http://git.pipapo.org/?p=muos;a=blob;f=PLAN.org;h=4000de5f8b2fd08b7f8e3409c9a6b9e997b99ff8;hb=fbd919319027ef525152e308a3aadc6ced78674a#l81
[08:44:41] <cehteh> made some table about clocks and overflows :D
[08:46:16] <phinxy> when the micro is asleep and wakes up each second i see one new line being drawn on the display each second
[08:47:05] <phinxy> i guess ill just break out from the main
[08:47:27] <cehteh> sleep_cpu() sleeps until it gets woken up, possibly then a ISR is called
[08:47:50] <cehteh> but when that ISR returns, it does *not* go to sleep again ..
[08:48:05] <cehteh> your mainloop will make a loop
[08:50:59] <phinxy> yeah i dont want to bother figuring out the problem with that macro
[08:51:06] <phinxy> sleep_mode() works fine! now
[08:55:02] <phinxy> i wish i was better with math. Im making a tachometer, the main problem im having is how to deal with the fact that the sensor trigger on rising and falling edge, which means i need to differentiate between the shorter and longer triggers. What if the sensor forgets to trigger on an edge? chaos
[08:59:27] <cehteh> most things with computers are quite deterministic
[08:59:46] <cehteh> if the sensor is speced to trigger at any edge then it does so, nothing else
[09:01:44] <phinxy> magnetic fields will vary ..
[09:02:44] <phinxy> it might be all good, i have not tried the sensor out with real magnets yet. it will probably be consisten
[09:02:50] <phinxy> t
[09:04:09] <cehteh> was that you with the hal sensor on the bike?
[09:04:27] <phinxy> thats me
[09:04:30] <cehteh> ah :)
[09:04:48] <cehteh> well still the sensor will give falling / rising edge
[09:05:02] <cehteh> maybe weak, but thats up to you to pick that up correctly
[09:05:15] <cehteh> prolly using the analog comparator
[09:08:57] <phinxy> its digital output (
[09:09:24] <phinxy> it uses a "schmitt-trigger"
[09:11:33] <phinxy> hmm since my display is ~5FPS its going to average out the pulses from the sensor pretty good so if it misses one edge its not big deal probably
[09:12:11] <cehteh> ah ok then
[09:12:33] <cehteh> yeah sure its always good to oversample/filter sensor data
[09:12:56] <cehteh> you can even throw away 'impossible' data
[09:13:11] <cehteh> sudden acceleration to mach 2 with a bike .. noway
[09:13:23] <cehteh> sudden deceleration to 0 .. maybe better call an ambulance
[09:22:22] <Jartza> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/15/microchip_atmel/
[09:32:18] <Jartza> get ready for Micmel PICMega -series
[09:33:33] <RikusW> ?! what ?
[09:36:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> pic made a valid offier to buy atmel
[09:37:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> it will cost them an extra 137 million to kill the earlier deal with that other holding company, however.
[09:37:43] <Jartza> RikusW:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/15/microchip_atmel/
[09:37:52] <Jartza> you just missed that URL
[09:38:01] <cehteh> hmm
[09:38:39] <cehteh> as long the toolset and opensource idea behind atmel stays the same
[09:39:01] <Jartza> quite hard to "steal" the existing toolsets
[09:39:15] <cehteh> yeah, but cutting support would be bad too
[09:39:20] <Jartza> true
[09:39:26] <Jartza> would kill AVR soon
[09:39:52] <cehteh> i guess they dont buy it to kill it, so maybe ok, no worries
[09:40:01] <Jartza> probably not
[09:40:09] <Jartza> but that's always a possibility
[09:40:19] <Jartza> business-mergers are always nasty in a way or another
[09:40:26] <cehteh> anyway atmels success is about mindset and somewhat community
[09:40:41] <cehteh> the architecture is nice but certainly not outstanding
[09:40:56] <Jartza> and sometimes money walks and bullshit talks, even though it should be vice-versa :D
[09:40:58] <cehteh> and nowadays you get 32bit with much more power under the hood for the same price
[09:41:21] <cehteh> only 3.3v and less driver power lets a lot people hold back from it
[09:41:27] <Jartza> yeah. kill opensource toolset and I'll switch completely to cortex m-series
[09:41:37] <cehteh> absolutely
[09:41:52] <cehteh> there will be some pain, but its not impossible
[10:33:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> thing is, microchip has been going slowly toward the open source toolset.
[10:34:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> the pic32 compiler c32 is built on gcc actually and you can get the source for the whole thing including the mods microchip made...
[10:34:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> modifications download has been one version old though.
[10:35:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> pic18 would be difficult to do on gcc but not impossible I bet...pic18 doesn't have a full in sram stack being the biggest problem I see.
[10:35:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> but, they've put out gcc mods for the tiny chips so,,who knows.
[10:50:34] <WormFood> Have any of you guys gotten experience with label/barcode printers, like zebra (I guess this question should be "experience with ZPL/ZPL II", since that is the "language" they're "programmed" with. It has a serial interface, so an AVR should be perfect for controlling it.
[10:51:21] <WormFood> This ZPL/ZPL 2 markup language is really shitty.
[11:18:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> I used to repair zebra label printers.
[11:18:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes..zpl is horrid and very limiting.
[11:18:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> and there is a linux driver for it...
[11:19:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> should be simple enough to feed zpl from an avr over the serial port.
[11:19:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> I toyed with using one to do printed circuit boards some time back.
[11:20:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> the resolution wasn't quite what I wanted but the ink did a decent etch resist.
[11:20:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> wasn't too difficult to feed boards through it either. The one I was using was made to print on cardboard pick tickets that were about 1/3 the thickness of the PCB stock I was using so modding it to feed the thicker stock wasn't too difficult.
[11:22:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> so, ultimately, what was your question?
[11:29:12] <Chillum> have you seen this:
https://github.com/adafruit/Adafruit-Thermal-Printer-Library ?
[11:29:40] <Chillum> not sure what "zebra printers" mean, like UPC codes?
[11:34:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> zebra is a manufacturer of label printers.
[11:34:31] <Chillum> ohh, I though it was just a generic term for UPC printers
[11:34:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> they are thermal transfer printers...use a wide plastic ribbon with wax on them.
[11:34:45] <Chillum> ugh
[11:35:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> the old printers they usedto print boarding tickets at the airport were zebra
[11:35:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> lots of manufacturer facilities use them to print labels.
[11:35:14] <Chillum> the whole benefit of thermal printers is that you don't need to add ink/toner/ribbons/cartridges
[11:35:30] <Chillum> I guess it creates something more resilient
[11:35:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> thermal printers that print on thermal paper are one thing
[11:36:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> thermal printers that transfer wax from ribbon to paper are something else entirely but use the same technology for the printheads really.
[11:36:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> in the commodore days I had a thermal printer that could do both.
[11:36:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> print to roll of thermal paper or put a black(or 4 color) ribbon in and print
[11:37:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> for every line printed it used an 8.25 inch strip of ribbon....for the color one it used 4 strips so 33 inches of ribbon.
[11:37:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> and the ribbon wasn't reusable.
[11:38:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> on the high side, the ink won't run.
[11:38:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> but was pricy.
[11:38:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> get it wet and the paper will dissolve before the wax ink will.
[11:38:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> they were all the rage back before laser became popular and cost effective.
[11:39:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> still popular in certain manufacturing facilities to print labels that won't smudge or smear.
[11:39:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> I've seen ones that use multiple ribbons and multiple printheads to do colors.
[11:40:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> I know of 3 of my clients that still use them....2 of them are using an as/400 to print to them even.
[11:40:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> the third prints from windows.
[11:47:27] <Chillum> I had a ribbon printer on my apple iigs... I don't miss that at all
[11:47:30] <Chillum> tractor feed
[11:47:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> impact or thermal?
[11:47:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> I just picked up 9 impact printers from work friday.
[11:47:53] <Chillum> impact
[11:47:56] <Chillum> very loud
[11:48:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> okidata ml320...9 identical printers.
[11:48:13] <Chillum> well, not sure if it was impact or thermal. The ribbon was a cloth though so I am guessing impact
[11:48:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> will be great for building a 3d printer or milling machine.
[11:48:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's impact, yes.
[11:48:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> thermal is very quiet.
[11:48:37] <Chillum> like typewriter ribbon... you could see what was printed on the ribbon
[11:48:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> ribbons on thermal are plastic and once you print with them you can see through the printed section.
[11:49:10] <Chillum> it was not see through, but you could see indentations that spelled out what you printed
[11:49:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[11:49:23] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it went back into the cartridge?
[11:49:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> or was it two spools?
[11:49:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> the cartridge ones were great as some had re-inkers in them.
[11:50:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> either way, the cloth ribbons could be re-inked with the right hardware.
[11:50:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> I built several re-inkers over the years...cheaper to buy ink and soak the ribbon in it than to buy new ribbons usually.
[11:51:00] <Chillum> two spools
[11:51:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> re-inkers for those were easy.
[11:51:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> motor, some rubber bits for squeegies, and a pool of ink and some idler rollers....build the frame out of anything, including wire coat hangers(did that)
[11:52:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> feed the ribbon through the idler rollers so it goes into the bowl of ink then straight upward to the squeegies to wipe excess ink off and drip it back into the bowl..
[11:52:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> could even do it with a hand crank rather than motor but I liked the motor versions myself.
[12:04:56] <Chillum> Lambda_Aurigae: lol @ the idea of hand cranks to maintain computer equipment
[12:05:05] <Chillum> though motors are becoming just as unlikely
[12:05:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[12:08:23] <WormFood> Lambda_Aurigae, I didn't have a specific question about them, per se.
[12:09:42] <WormFood> But, it sounds like you have a bit of experience with them. Do you have any tips or tricks or suggestions about programming them? I have a roll of lables, that are 3 across. Can it handle those like 3 separate lables, or do I have to trick it into treating them as one big, wide label?
[12:10:16] <WormFood> wtf? I typo "label" twice?
[12:11:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> kinda depends on the model you have there. I'm guessing if the labels are 3 across on the roll then you have to print all 3 at once.
[12:11:40] <WormFood> That's what I'm guessing.
[12:11:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> probably some kind of packing label..
[12:11:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> two for the box, one for the paperwork, kinda thing
[12:12:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have 4 identical older ones...well, 3 identical and 1 hacked to hell, but all the same model.
[12:12:50] <WormFood> It's not actually a zebra printer. It's a TSC printer, but it supports ZPL/ZPL2, as do most label/barcode printers. This TSPL seems much more understandable, but just doesn't seem to work. I'm sure I'm the fault, but I can't figure out what to give it, to make it not show a paper jam when I print something.
[12:12:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> client of mine was going to throw them out.
[12:13:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> so I got the printers and a case of ribbons free.
[12:13:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> zpl/zpl2 is horrid..worse than pcl by far.
[12:13:35] <WormFood> I was asking about it in #debian, and those retards suggest I use CUPS. And when I tell them that's a shit solution for this type of printer, they call me a troll. ;)
[12:13:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> I played with a little bit.
[12:14:13] <WormFood> Have you seen TSPL/TSPL 2 before?
[12:14:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> actually, there is a cups driver for it as I recall.
[12:14:18] <WormFood> There is
[12:14:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> haven't used that one.
[12:14:25] <WormFood> There is even a driver for my specific printer.
[12:14:50] <WormFood> However, I couldn't get their utilities to work. And they're closed source, and crash, so yeah, like I'd really want to use cups.
[12:15:09] <WormFood> I really want everything bitmapped, and sent over a 9600 baud serial connection. Great idea.
[12:15:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's how I was doing my pcb layout printing on the zebra.
[12:15:33] <WormFood> But, honestly, I can't imagine CUPS being a real solution for this type of printer.
[12:16:46] <WormFood> Have you used the ZPL emulators before? They just show what a ZPL script would look like, if printed.
[12:16:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have not.
[12:17:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> never even considered finding one when I was playing with it.
[12:17:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> kinda put it away as the resolution wasn't really what I needed for doing pcb
[12:18:17] <WormFood> BARCODE X,Y,”code type”,height,human readable,rotation,narrow,wide,[alignment,]”content “ <-- this is an example of the barcode command, from TSPL. Sooo much more readable, even tho still slightly cryptic with their options, but not really different from most programming languages in that respect (even tho it's not a programming language per se)
[12:18:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's a printer definition language,,,like pcl or postscript.
[12:18:57] <WormFood> I know. It's a markup language specifically.
[12:19:21] <WormFood> However, newer versions support BASIC, so it really can be a true programming language.
[12:19:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[12:19:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> heck, we used to write programs in postscript
[12:19:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> and execute them on the apple laserwriter.
[12:20:07] <WormFood> But, still, it's not ZPL that's the programming language, it's BASIC, but within the ZPL framework. It still doesn't magically turn ZPL into a programming language, it's still a markup language.
[12:20:46] <WormFood> postscript is special, from back in the days when computers didn't typically have enough ram to even render a single laser printed page in memory.
[12:20:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[12:21:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> postscript rocks.
[12:21:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> apple laserwriter ran a 68000 processor too.
[12:21:11] <WormFood> I feel this ZPL is VERY similar to postscript in that sense, but much more limited.
[12:21:15] <WormFood> Yep
[12:21:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> zpl is more a baseline definition language...even pre-markup really.
[12:21:53] <WormFood> 68000 was an interesting CPU. I built a 68000 based machine, from a kit (bare circuit board). 8-bit ISA slots on it. Even used a regular PC video card.
[12:22:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have a bunch of 68000 boards with some kind of rom and some ram and breadboard section on them..
[12:22:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> fully functional computer and all
[12:22:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> but made for learning kits it looks like.
[12:22:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> some have stuff built on them, others look brand new.
[12:22:44] <WormFood> I even wrote a desktop animator .fli animation format video player for it, in 1/2 C and 1/2 asm.
[12:22:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> bought 30 of them for $1.00 each.
[12:22:55] <WormFood> wow!
[12:22:58] <WormFood> nice
[12:23:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> 64pin dip package processors..gotta love it.
[12:23:09] <WormFood> so, ya got 30 dollars in 'em
[12:23:15] <WormFood> oh yeah.
[12:23:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> wish someone would that with a modern microcontroller like the pic32mz
[12:24:38] <WormFood> http://wormfood.net/old_computers/ <-- here are some pics of my old 68000 machine, if you were interested in it.
[12:25:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> kewl.
[12:25:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> mine are all in a heap or twelve in the basement.
[12:25:39] <WormFood> All the extra wires on it, are for a piggyback ram upgrade, I designed for it. It was designed to handle 12 meg of ram, but they never made the expansion boards for it. I looked at the schematics, and easily figured out how to add more ram, with just 3 extra ICs.
[12:25:47] <Lambda_Aurigae> the one computer I want to get is a fully functioning sun 3/260...with the optical mouse and mouse pad for it.
[12:26:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> I remember my first z80 based machine...1K of ram.
[12:26:11] <WormFood> interesting. I never got to play with any of the Sun machines. I rarely even get to see them in person.
[12:26:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> turned it into 8K by stacking chips on top of the existing 1Kx1 ramchips and pulling out the chip select pins.
[12:26:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> sun 3/260 was my big workstation in the military while doing satellite stuff.
[12:27:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> 21 inch monitor, optical mouse that had to run on this special checkerboard metal mouse pad, 68040 processor...I forget how much ram...but they rocked.
[12:27:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> full unix on them...and we had the 8 foot long unix manual on the bench along the back wall too.
[12:28:17] <WormFood> nice
[12:28:17] <WormFood> I remember in high school, they had a AT, with a piggybacked ram upgrade.
[12:28:21] <Chillum> ahh the glory days
[12:28:31] <WormFood> I even did a few piggyback RAM upgrades, on the tandy color computer. Someone figured out a clever way to upgrade it to 512meg, without an expansion board, by using the existing sockets, and ram, and some wires.
[12:29:04] <WormFood> I used to do satellite stuff too.
[12:29:07] <WormFood> :D
[12:29:46] <Chillum> my first memory of a computer was an old PC that had cartridges, one for a word processor and another for basic. It was at my school and it has a database you could use
[12:29:47] <WormFood> In fact, there is a good chance, someone here knows me by my satellite hacking nick (don't ask, I won't say it in public for a least another year or two)
[12:30:57] <WormFood> My first memory of a computer, was at the computer lab in my mom's college, back in the late '70s. She was taking programming in college, and eventually got a career in programming, later moving up to management.
[12:33:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> highschool? AT?
[12:33:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> bah...we had apple-II
[12:33:30] <Chillum> I had a book on basic for 3 years before I finally got to use a real computer. When I sat down I started with the classic 10 print "hello" 20 goto 10
[12:33:57] <Chillum> my parents were amazed that I did that the first time I had access to one
[12:34:13] <Chillum> I calmly explained to them that i am able to read and that this is not that complex of a program
[12:34:22] <Chillum> I think I was 6 or 7
[12:34:37] <WormFood> They had a single AT used by the teacher, but the students had PCs
[12:34:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> I was 12 the first time I started programming on a trs-80
[12:34:54] <Chillum> took me DECADES to unlearn the bad habits basic taught me
[12:35:01] <WormFood> I was probably slightly younger, when I started learning programming.
[12:35:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> I still use GOTO whenever possible just to piss people off.
[12:35:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> think I'm a widdle bit older than you WormFood
[12:35:20] <Chillum> https://xkcd.com/292/
[12:35:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> 48 here.
[12:35:36] <WormFood> I didn't learn bad habits from programming in BASIC
[12:35:38] <WormFood> I'm 47
[12:35:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> my school must have been behind then.
[12:35:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> or just applish.
[12:36:25] <WormFood> I knew, at the time, that BASIC wasn't a good language to learn. I did learn BASIC09, which is more like pascal in it's structure and control loops (or so I've been told. I never used pascal)
[12:36:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> I took a programming class in my junior year of high school, just for the hell of it.
[12:36:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> basic first half of the year
[12:37:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> pascal,,compiler and everything,,second half...
[12:37:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> on apple-II
[12:37:08] <WormFood> It seems that some teachers prefer the Apple over the PC, and others prefer the PC over the apple. Apple had a strong influence in the educational sector, giving them huge discounts.
[12:37:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> I finished the course in like 3 weeks.
[12:37:33] <WormFood> I still have an extremely rare, apple ][+ clone.
[12:37:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> ooooo.
[12:37:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> only one apple here...it's a ppc mac that doesn't work.
[12:38:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> do have functional vic-20, c-64, and c-128 though.
[12:38:03] <WormFood> I searched for over 10 years, before I could find another one. And when I found it, it was in a museum.
[12:38:20] <WormFood> I have so many computers back in USA, it's not funny. I couldn't even count them.
[12:38:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have piles of junk in the basement that is all going away this summer.
[12:39:00] <WormFood> I have an "educational" tandy color computer (coco), without the rf modulator. Instead there is a PCB, and a composite output, that gave shades, instead of vertical lines when displaying artifacted colors.
[12:39:18] <WormFood> I think I still have one of those. I may have thrown it out years ago.
[12:39:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> I want to get a couple of the all-in-one commodore pet machines.
[12:39:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> those would be fun to play with.
[12:39:44] <WormFood> I still have a Gimix computer tho, with a pair of fuckin' boat-anchor-heavy 8" floppy drives, built like a tank.
[12:39:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> use them for aux interfaces for ksp.
[12:40:10] <WormFood> I got a box of paper tape, with software on it.
[12:40:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> built myself a real space operations center.
[12:40:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> hehe.
[12:40:20] <WormFood> My friend was gonna throw it out, and I told him I wanted it.
[12:40:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> any clue what is on it?
[12:40:42] <WormFood> I was rather frustrated, that he throw out all his old 68xx asm books. I actually had friends at the time, looking for that stuff.
[12:40:58] <WormFood> various software, I believe most is written in basic.
[12:40:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have a set of system V release 7 unix disks on 3.5 inch floppy here..just found those a month or so ago in a box of disks....still in the original wrapper.
[12:41:11] <WormFood> I wonder if they're readable.
[12:41:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> should be.
[12:41:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> sealed in plastic shrink wrap.
[12:41:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> no moisture inside the plastic.
[12:41:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> been relatively climate controlled in my basement..stays cool in summer and never freezes in winter.
[12:42:03] <learath> eh, I don't know what quality floppies they are, though 3.5 is fairly recent
[12:42:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[12:42:12] <WormFood> I have a full set of something. version 2.11. novell netware I think. I was able to recover all but 3 or 4 floppies, and I can't find a copy online anywhere.
[12:42:31] <learath> *2*.11? damn.
[12:42:31] <Lambda_Aurigae> I think I have netware 3.11 and 3.12 here.
[12:42:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> only saw a 2.x once.
[12:42:41] <learath> <- used to be netware certified.
[12:42:51] <WormFood> yeah, it's definitely version 2.x. I'm 99% sure it's 2.11
[12:43:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> novell master certified network engineer here...from 1993.
[12:43:04] <learath> wow. Oldest I ever worked with was 3.*
[12:43:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> WormFood, that would be netware 286.
[12:43:26] <WormFood> I also had os/2, 1.3 extended edition. Never found a full copy of that online either. And of course the disks are damaged now, due to age.
[12:43:42] <WormFood> yeah, that sounds right.
[12:43:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> learath, ever notice, installing netware 3.11, if you did the same install 4 times in a row on the same hardware it would ask for the disks in different order?
[12:44:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> I did it as a test once...4 identical machines side by side,,,,they all asked for the disks in different orders.
[12:44:27] <WormFood> That doesn't make sense. Are you sure it wasn't becuase of different install options?
[12:45:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> WormFood, I asked several other novell MCNE guys of the time and they said the same thing...it was just fucking strange.
[12:45:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> 3.12 was straightforward.
[12:45:23] <Lambda_Aurigae> but not 3.11
[12:45:26] <learath> Lambda_Aurigae: ... no
[12:45:32] <learath> that makes no sense?
[12:45:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> and 4.x just fucked up the whole novell line.
[12:45:34] <WormFood> I had a light sensitive computer once. In fact, it's that 68000 machine, I built from a kit. When it was in it's minimal state, which is cpu, serial ports, ram, eproms, and some glue chips, the eproms were light sensitive.
[12:45:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> 3.12 was the best ever.
[12:46:20] <WormFood> When I closed the case, it'd fuckin' crash. If I turned off the light in the room, it'd crash. If I covered up the eproms, it'd crash. if I put a flashlight on the eproms, it'd work.
[12:46:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> WormFood, strange...
[12:46:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> although, optical erased eproms would do some strange things without covering the windows.
[12:47:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> I've used them as light sensors in the past.
[12:47:32] <WormFood> Now, before you tell me, that eproms don't work that way. I'm aware of that. It totally blew my mind. I showed my friend, who is an old school computer genus, and he was shocked. I don't think it fully sunk in, because he kept shaking his head saying "eproms don't work that way".
[12:47:41] <Jartza> well
[12:47:49] <Jartza> raspberry pi 2 crashes with xenon flash :)
[12:47:49] <WormFood> that's a deep subject
[12:47:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> but, I'm one of those strange beings who use LEDs as light sensors.
[12:47:58] <WormFood> After I added the dram circuit, everything worked fine.
[12:48:09] <WormFood> Well, diodes are light sensitive.
[12:48:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> Jartza, because of the cheap crap voltage regulator chip.
[12:48:23] <Jartza> Lambda_Aurigae: I also use LED as VGA signal "separator" diode
[12:48:26] <WormFood> and an LED, is still a diode, so in theory it can work as a detector as well.
[12:48:41] <Jartza> Lambda_Aurigae: wasn't it because wlcsp chip that was light-sensitive
[12:48:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> oh, I thought it was the voltage regulator.
[12:48:59] <Jartza> nope
[12:49:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> u16,whatever thatis.
[12:49:52] <Jartza> it might be power chip, dunno
[12:50:02] <Jartza> but the problem isn't that the chip is crappy
[12:50:42] <Jartza> wlcsp chips are known to be light sensitive
[12:50:52] <Jartza> and should only be used in closed enclosures
[12:50:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah...it's just not properly covered.
[12:51:05] <learath> transistors are light sensitive
[12:51:29] <learath> wlcsps just have the actual die so close to the surface that they can let light through the epoxy, which is kinda crazy
[12:51:53] <learath> they need to increase the depth of wlcsp by some absurdly tiny distance, .1mm? .5mm?
[12:52:18] <learath> (or just accept that wlcsp chips will be light sensitive)
[12:52:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> aahh..wlcsp isthe package...actually WL-CSP
[12:53:05] <learath> yeah
[12:53:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> bare die-bga basically.
[12:53:13] <learath> "wafer level chip scale package" IIRC
[12:53:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[12:54:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> still no clue what that chip is actually but it's part of the power control circuit.
[12:54:15] <learath> it's the contoller
[12:54:36] <learath> https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/xenon-death-flash-a-free-physics-lesson/
[12:55:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> they never do say exactly what the chip is, just that'sin charge of regulating processor core power.
[12:55:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> oh well..
[12:55:51] <learath> "U16"
[12:55:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> I got that much.
[12:56:05] <learath> it's the SMPS controller.. argh
[12:56:08] <learath> hold on :P
[12:56:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> would have to look up the bill of materials and I'm too lazy...not that interested.
[12:56:41] <learath> I totally can't read the chip...
[12:58:09] <learath> looks like it's a NCP6343
[12:59:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> that would fit.
[12:59:05] <learath> it's *stupidly* tiny
[12:59:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[12:59:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> and my microscope is out in the shed
[12:59:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> where it is 1degF today.
[13:08:41] <WormFood> My microscope is sitting beside me. But it has no display, only a usb interface ;)
[13:10:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> I'm in the living room in my recliner with lunch 3/4 finished on my chest and keyboard in my lap.
[13:10:33] <WormFood> It's almost 3am here.
[13:10:41] <WormFood> All I have are midnight snacks.
[13:11:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> 12:46PM ish here.
[13:11:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> made macaroni and cheese with little smokies in it for lunch.
[13:12:26] <WormFood> so, I'm guessing you're in usa or canuckistan
[13:13:12] <WormFood> I got a box of mac 'n cheese, from usa. I tend to mix ground pork with it.
[13:14:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> usa, iowa
[13:14:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> about an hour drive north of des moines.
[13:16:39] <WormFood> I've been to Iowa....once
[13:17:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> nice place
[13:17:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> nice people
[13:17:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> not much here but hogs, cattle, corn, and soybeans.
[13:17:22] <WormFood> I'm from Florida
[13:17:31] <WormFood> or, as I like to call it, Floria-DUH
[13:17:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> I was born there.
[13:17:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> Punta Gorda
[13:18:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> Florida, the southernmost yankee state.
[13:18:12] <WormFood> It's a good place to be from ;)
[13:18:23] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes, far from.
[13:18:54] <WormFood> My area is well known for it's race horses. More winners of the Kentucky Derby were born in my county, than anywhere else.
[13:19:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> my grandfather raised arabians and mustangs in florida years and years ago.
[13:19:26] <WormFood> I gotta get this label printer printing shit for me.
[13:19:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> had some nifty crossbreeds of the two too.
[13:19:46] <WormFood> My grandparents raised Arabians.
[13:21:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> grandpa lived in north fort myers area.
[13:43:59] <nikomo> Guys, I ain't done any real coding with avr, so I need a quick answer, re: what pins I can use. atmega328, timer0 is connected to PD5 and PD6 - I can use PD5 for IO and PD6 with timer0 for PWM without any conflicts right?
[13:44:46] * cehteh would need to read the datasheet too
[13:45:05] <Martin90> nikomo, read the documentation!
[13:45:16] <nikomo> I have no idea what I'm looking for
[13:45:29] <Martin90> but yes you can use these pin without any confict
[13:45:47] <cehteh> you can use all pins independentl and only connect certain pins to certain hardware units such as PWM, UART, etc
[13:46:09] <nikomo> yeah I figured that would be the case. Which is good for me, everything's coming up nicely
[13:46:10] <cehteh> so if one pin works with PWM you can use another as gpio for sure
[13:46:51] <cehteh> but dont ask for valid pins for whatever purpose, i dont have that in mind and prolly no one else here either
[13:47:20] <nikomo> aye, just trying to extract the general functionality regarding how the pins actually connect to the peripherals etc.
[13:48:04] <nikomo> I mean, the two pins of timer0 can already act independantly of each other, which means there has to be at least some level of independance
[13:48:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> look at the pinout on the chip in the datasheet.
[13:48:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> it tells all the alternate functions for every pin.
[13:48:43] <nikomo> heh, the pinout in the datasheet doesn't tell if some pins are functionally tied together somehow
[13:48:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> generally, all gpio pins can be used for gpio and at least one other function.
[13:48:52] <cehteh> they are not
[13:49:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> but not always.
[13:49:11] <cehteh> if you drive one pin with some special function that wont influence any other pins
[13:49:46] <cehteh> sans bugs :D ... or setup errors
[13:49:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> every module in the datasheet explains what pins it interfaces with and how,,,in some detail,,often including block/schematic diagram of how it is interconnected to what pins.
[13:50:56] <phinxy> Yes! made a 3 color bike
http://imgur.com/b5AVae3
[13:51:41] <cehteh> there are some not specially mentioned cases, somewhat undefined, for example i havent figured out what happens when i use one pin as analog in but turn on the internal pullup, these things are either not documented or you need to read the datasheet carefully (and look at the diagrams how things are connected) .. or just try and see what happens
[13:53:21] <cehteh> but i cant remember that configuring one pin for something would affect another pin
[13:53:32] <nikomo> to be fair, if you connect an internal pullup on an analog input, that's kinda your fault
[13:54:13] <nikomo> I don't really expect an 8bit micro screaming along in the 2-digit MHz range, to protect me from shooting myself in the leg
[13:54:23] <cehteh> nikomo: maybe .. i had some use for it, cant remember what it was .. or was it pullup on some other special function
[13:58:15] <nikomo> if I get schematic+board done tomorrow at school, I can probably get my board milled before I have to leave, that'd be nice
[13:59:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> hoping to have my board milling machine done sometime this spring, after the workshed thaws a little.
[13:59:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> will be nice not to have to hand drill holes
[14:00:30] <nikomo> I used to dread milling quite a bit, but we just had a guy from LPKF come in to do some maintenance.
[14:00:45] <nikomo> Apparently he ended up leaving at 8pm after spending 8 hours fighting the machine
[14:01:07] <nikomo> Maintenance was well, not really done, before.
[14:01:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> building mine from scratch and a bunch of okidata ml-320 printers
[14:01:26] <nikomo> nice
[14:01:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> got 9 of them,,,all identical.
[14:01:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> customer traded up to laser printers and we hauled out the old junk.
[14:02:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> company was going to send them to the junk man.
[14:02:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> I snatched them up.
[14:02:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> with those solid rails and things, I can do 2 per axis and have extra.
[14:03:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> and they have nice little stepper motors driving along a toothed bar for positioning.
[14:29:27] <goddard> on ubuntu my ide is complaing #include <avr/io.h> <- no such file or directory
[14:32:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> then fix your paths.
[14:34:27] <cehteh> no avrlibc installed?
[14:34:44] <cehteh> what ide anyway
[14:42:21] <Guest56029> Which platform is better for AVR-development linux or windows?
[14:43:16] <cehteh> lol
[14:43:20] <Martin90> xD
[14:43:51] <cehteh> completely unbiased and subjective answer: Linux of course :D
[14:45:07] <Guest56029> Why? Educate a newb
[14:45:15] <cehteh> (actually typed 'make upload' to build and flash a project to a chip faster than AVR-Studio starts up on a friends windows machine (8 core xeon))
[14:45:42] <cehteh> well, use whatever you feel comfortable with
[14:46:13] <Guest56029> I have eclipse installed on another laptop with avr tools, it has a broader library for supported chips
[14:46:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> with linux you aren't burdened with atmel studio.
[14:46:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> command line for the win.
[14:46:43] <Guest56029> u guys use eclipse or what?
[14:46:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> eeeww
[14:46:49] <cehteh> i wont use eclipse either, waaaaay to much bloat
[14:46:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> vim
[14:46:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> or if I'm feeling particularly lazy, kate
[14:46:59] <cehteh> emacs
[14:47:08] <inkjetunito> Guest56029: depends on the tools you're used to. git, for example, was quite horrible on windows
[14:47:18] <cehteh> either way .. any text editor and a makefile will do
[14:47:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> but being as you are too lazy to spell out the word you, go for eclipse.
[14:47:32] <cehteh> yes and git of course
[14:48:10] <cehteh> i tihnk git should be supported in windows meanwhile too, bu i havent used windows in this millenium yet
[14:49:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> git command line should be the same on linux or windows shouldn't it?
[14:49:52] <Guest56029> I'm seriously considering switching into linux, any recommended distros for programming?
[14:50:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> anything with a command line.
[14:50:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> I use ubuntu or debian
[14:50:33] <cehteh> i meant meanwhile git should be integrated in visual studio and other ide's right? .. no odea
[14:50:34] <cehteh> idea
[14:50:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> redhat or fedora works too
[14:50:46] <nikomo> first I got worried that I forgot to make sure I have pins left for buttons. then I realized I have like the entirety of PORTC left untouched. niiiiiiiiiiiice
[14:50:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> cehteh, oh, I don't use IDEs..
[14:50:55] <cehteh> i use debian, maybe switching to guix soon
[14:51:02] <cehteh> me neither
[14:51:10] <inkjetunito> Lambda_Aurigae: git for windows depends on some *nix-like environment for windows, plus in practice one needs a third party terminal emulator for windows and all sudden one has tons of updaters yelling about updates all the time
[14:51:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> gentoo and slack work well if you want to futz with them.
[14:51:11] <cehteh> but windows folks like that :D
[14:51:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> inkjetunito, eeeww....I haven't run windows for anything other than work or a game in many years.
[14:51:56] <cehteh> me neither
[14:51:58] <nikomo> I got git mostly working OK on Windows. I still haven't figured out some stuff though
[14:52:14] <Guest56029> I need windows for my college stuff
[14:52:30] <Guest56029> Pherhaps I should set up a dual boot system in my "main" laptop
[14:52:35] <cehteh> that sux, why would that depend on windows?
[14:52:56] <Guest56029> The programs we use, etc
[14:53:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have to have winblows for my work stuff...xerox manuals are integrated into IE 8 or IE 9 and won't work on wine...
[14:53:10] <cehteh> no free/portable alternatives?
[14:53:27] <Guest56029> I'm still a freshman so I'm not that knowledgeable tho
[14:53:31] <cehteh> yeah some things just wont work
[14:53:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> so I carry 3 laptops for work.
[14:53:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> windows one for manuals
[14:53:44] <cehteh> but i hate when enducational things are locked into windows
[14:53:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> mac for,,,,mac crap
[14:53:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> and linux box to get things done.
[14:54:22] <Guest56029> Yeah
[14:54:29] <cehteh> my wife has a windows VM too for some business application which wont work on linux/wine
[14:54:42] <Guest56029> We have a guy in our class who has a mac and he is always troubled
[14:55:21] <inkjetunito> heh. that sounds much like the past
[14:55:22] <nikomo> K, just modified my Windows Git setup, it's now working 100%
[14:55:39] <cehteh> but rather than dualboot i would recommend to put windows into a VM, less trouble and instead rebooting on updates you only need to restart some certain programm :D
[14:55:44] <nikomo> Windows is still painful though :P
[14:56:44] <inkjetunito> Guest56029: anyway. i'd say that you're lucky to be able to use AVR. you'll get the job done with any of the three major OSs :)
[14:57:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> in the end, use the tools that work for you.
[14:57:14] <Xark> cehteh: Does Windows 7 like being installed in VM? Does it give activation hassles?
[14:57:27] <nikomo> Windows, any version, in a VM, causes no problems
[14:57:41] <nikomo> Well, other than the ones that come with it being Windows
[14:58:06] <Xark> nikomo: Define "no problem"? What about activation? Have to call India and read 128-digit number?
[14:58:19] <nikomo> It activates just like any Windows.
[14:58:34] <Xark> nikomo: Okay, so call India and recite 128-digit number. :)
[14:58:46] <nikomo> You put in the product key and it activates. Or you use an activator.
[14:59:55] * Xark is only wondering as MS claims Win7 will not be "fully" supported on i7 Skylake after a few months (whatever that means).
[15:00:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> win7 and win8 will not be supported on new processors as the processors come out.
[15:00:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> which means, they may or may not run.
[15:01:05] <Xark> They specifically mentioned Skylake (which is what my Win7 machine came with). :)
[15:01:32] * Xark notes it also came with a Win10 disc - but that is safely in a lead-lined box...
[15:02:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> it should be used as a dish cover in the microwave
[15:05:23] <Xark> Lambda_Aurigae: Yeah, but affects food flavor (as well as fire hazard). :)
[15:05:32] <cehteh> Xark: win8 is that, activation was some hazzle an call to m$ support (not for me, i let my wife call :D)
[15:05:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> so use it for reheating kimchee or chitlins..
[15:06:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> win8 activation was easy...insert autoinstalling linux flash drive, turn on computer...no problem with win8 anymore.
[15:06:36] <Xark> cehteh: I suspect I'd have to call as disc I have used to be on a laptop (but it has been Windows for a few years now).
[15:06:47] <Xark> (but a full disc - not vendor disc)
[15:06:54] <Xark> OEM*
[15:06:57] <cehteh> funny thing is that it now nags about the windows 10 upgrade
[15:07:19] <cehteh> but when one clicks that it tells that the computer is not compatible with windows 10
[15:07:26] <Xark> cehteh: Yeah, I already figured out which updates to uninstall to prevent that (on Win7). :)
[15:07:36] <cehteh> and "Do you want to buy a new one, click here" .. box
[15:07:57] <Xark> cehteh: Hehe
[15:08:07] <cehteh> i dont care as long the one single software which we need to run there works
[15:08:28] * Xark notes MS are at least transparent jerks these days. :)
[15:08:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> had a customer go through his office and upgrade all their computers from win7 to win10 over the christmas holiday.
[15:08:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> when everybody came back, none of their programs worked, scanning didn't work, printing didn't work.
[15:09:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> their programs being tax programs from the last 10 years.
[15:09:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it's a tax lawyer's office.
[15:09:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> they couldn't pull up tax info for their clients for court.
[15:09:31] <cehteh> i only choosen win8.1 because it has the longer support period, so i dont need to care for a long time for a new windows
[15:09:31] <Xark> Lambda_Aurigae: At least they can play solitaire (with ads or small fee...). :)
[15:10:07] <cehteh> the program we run there always runs fullscreen, everything else is disabled as fas disabling it was easy
[15:10:38] <Xark> cehteh: Well, I hope recent renig announcement is not a problem, but 2020 is fine for me. I am hoping for the Year of the Linux Desktop before then... :)
[15:11:20] <cehteh> i just hope that this software will eventually run on linux
[15:11:46] <cehteh> (quite custiom stuff in delphi with firebird database)
[15:12:06] <cehteh> which needs some healthcare certification so hacking isnt good there either
[15:12:33] <Xark> Luckily I am not really running much that couldn't also run on Linux (or similar app).
[15:12:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> healthcare cert is a pain in the ass.
[15:12:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> we just went through that on our copiers for one hospital.
[15:13:17] <cehteh> thats why i just run the software and dont touch it
[15:51:07] <julius> hi
[15:51:15] <felixphew> hi
[16:07:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> iH
[16:14:02] <Jartza> evening
[16:14:37] <felixphew> morning
[16:45:14] <julius> i need a time machine to speed up the delievery from china
[16:54:25] <WormFood> I get stuff from China super fast.
[16:54:34] <WormFood> usually 1-3 days, at most.
[16:55:06] <WormFood> julius, you need to live where I do, if you want fast shipments from China.
[16:55:25] <cehteh> like living in china ..
[16:56:08] <cehteh> julius: if you pay a bit extra for premium delivery many things come within a week to germany too, unless customs hold them back :D
[17:04:25] <julius> hey WormFood, hows the weather in china?
[17:04:35] <julius> cehteh, true
[17:43:17] <Jartza> hehe
[17:43:18] <Jartza> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VECIEO941d4