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[13:55:28] <Evidlo> I'm interested in doing a project where an AVR intercepts data from a HID device, encrypts it, and sends the data to a PC. Could an attiny 84 do this?
[14:03:45] <Jartza> Evidlo: usb1.0 barely maybe
[15:20:49] <twnqx> ummm
[15:20:59] <twnqx> ISP for an avr 3250p
[15:21:08] <twnqx> that's on the SPI pins, right?
[15:26:17] <RikusW> usually
[15:26:27] <RikusW> except for mega128 and a few others
[15:26:43] <twnqx> found it in the data sheet
[15:27:27] <twnqx> nice number of IO on that chip
[15:27:34] <twnqx> just a bit disorganized
[15:55:06] <Jartza> I just noticed I've ordered 10 different boards
[18:19:53] <Getty> that awkward moment where you are looking at the code and you are 100% sure its right, but the device is 100% for sure showing you are wrong
[18:21:52] <Getty> ARGHL...... a - b > c ... is not the same as ... (a - b) > c ... there are never enough ()
[18:25:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> order of operations is very important.
[18:25:51] * Casper points at Getty and laught maniacally
[18:26:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> this used to be taught in 9th grade algebra where I went to school.
[18:27:10] <Getty> in math that would be pretty valid ;) you dont calc out the compare before the calculation
[18:27:23] <Getty> not really sure what you mean i have missed in school for this problem
[18:31:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> unfortunately, the order of operations varies from programming language to programming language.
[18:31:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> and sometimes even from compiler to compiler of the same language.
[18:31:54] <Getty> yeah, i am not used to C, actually its literally my first year, while i have .... <count> 20 years of other languages before ;)
[18:32:16] <Getty> 20? i miss out a lot of years whatever
[18:32:24] <Getty> the horrors of C is a new world for me
[18:32:29] <Getty> it all looks like the same but... its not
[18:32:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> hehe.
[18:32:47] <Getty> you think its like all the other "modern" "abstracted" languages.. cause it totally looks like
[18:32:51] <Getty> but then.... then..... <cry>
[18:33:29] <Getty> http://i.imgur.com/uJfwO.gif
[18:33:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> I started with basic, then went to 6502 assembly, then PASCAL, FORTRAN, C, Ada,,,then dove into java, perl, and all the others.
[18:34:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> C predates all those modern abstracted languages.
[18:34:11] <Getty> i am more the higher class ;)
[18:34:13] <Getty> <snobbing>
[18:34:32] <Getty> i just do C cause 64k gives no option for perl ;)
[18:34:47] <Getty> but its fun
[18:34:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> so do assembly.
[18:35:14] <Getty> if you start realizing that malloc is your biggest foe and "static thinking" is the way to go, then C coding is actually "simple"
[18:35:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's really fun!
[18:35:18] <Getty> its just a shitload of bitshifting
[18:35:25] <Getty> yeah sure, more bitshifting, go fuck yourself ;)
[18:35:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> try teaching yourself assembly when nobody else around has a clue what it is.
[18:35:54] <Getty> i actually use i2cmaster in assembler
[18:35:56] <Getty> no idea what i do there
[18:35:58] <Getty> but it works
[18:36:12] <Getty> put the file in my repo, added something to my makefile i never saw before, and it works
[18:36:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> hehe.
[18:36:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> makefiles are black magic.
[18:36:40] <Getty> well... i do learned how they work finally through my C learning
[18:36:57] <Getty> i learned A LOT about the shit that was blindfly all the time in my IT-life
[18:37:26] <Getty> but yeah, even if you think you understand Makefile, you still cant understand why people are using it which gets into a loophole of "and how i should use it proper now?"
[18:37:35] <Getty> it doesnt matter at which stage you are the end result is always madness
[18:38:10] <Getty> i do actually started a plan for a concept in Perl that is more .... intelligent and more configurable for things that should be done different instead of repeating what should be done anytime always the same
[18:38:22] <Getty> but uint32_t time is getting low
[18:39:38] <Getty> Lambda_Aurigae: btw you should checkout App::Installer ;) you might like it
[18:39:47] <Lambda_Aurigae> why?
[18:40:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> looks like a perl thingie.
[18:40:21] <Getty> because, i dont know, he is on third!
[18:40:57] <Getty> not many perl people in the world i can suggest it to ;) non perl people go around it anyway, their lost ;)
[18:41:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> I write things in bash script.
[18:41:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> or in C.
[18:41:19] <Getty> <shiver> ;)
[18:42:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> years ago I was working with a bunch of programmers who were trying to build a parsing system in perl...they were trained, went to school, and all that..had the credentials and all that.
[18:42:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> they spent a couple of weeks trying to build this parsing system...it never worked right.
[18:42:27] <Getty> being at school and trained means nothing really ;)
[18:42:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> I wrote one in C in a day that worked.
[18:42:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> where a team of 3 programmers couldn't do it...
[18:42:52] <Getty> yeah but you would write it in perl in half a day
[18:42:55] <Getty> its the programmer
[18:42:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I was just the IT guy.
[18:42:59] <Getty> not his tools
[18:43:05] <Getty> but the tools can tune the time
[18:43:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> I couldn't have written it in perl at all at the time.
[18:43:15] <Getty> thats why i ended on Perl as the glue...... for the common case
[18:43:19] <Getty> you could have
[18:43:29] <Getty> if you would have known what is in as helpers for that
[18:43:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> at the time I looked at the perl and it was gibberish to me.
[18:43:49] <Getty> you looked at the wrong stuff
[18:44:07] <Getty> unbelievable, so many people with a wrong picture of perl
[18:44:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's a scripting language.
[18:44:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> has its place.
[18:44:55] <Getty> its the unix language, its more C as it is what all the other scripting languages do
[18:45:12] <Getty> thats why i pretty much ignore perl for windows ;) shouldnt exist, but thats other topic
[18:45:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> give me csh, bash, or real C any day.
[18:45:47] <Getty> your lost ;)
[18:45:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> but that's just because I have used them for many years.
[18:46:03] <Getty> yeah, i also used a lot of stuff for many years
[18:46:11] <Getty> and did made my wold with this stuff for many years and said i dont need else
[18:46:51] <Getty> then i throw everything away, changed my jobfield and switched to perl after i removed the blockade i made to myself for using perl
[18:46:56] <Getty> as i thought its just cryptic gibberish ;)
[18:47:04] <Getty> (you see where i am coming from)
[18:47:33] <Getty> now i am finally happy
[18:47:35] <Getty> ;)
[18:48:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> to each their own.
[18:49:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> kinda like the whole AVR, PIC, 8052, thing.
[18:49:32] <Getty> its not the same but ok
[18:49:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> use whatever works and you are most comfortable with.
[18:49:48] <Getty> i mean you see perl as just one out of a pool, while it has very unique abilities which make it my weapon of choice
[18:49:53] <Getty> those dont exist in other languages
[18:50:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> what unique abilities?
[18:50:04] <Getty> but yes, there is always "reason" around doing things differently
[18:50:16] <Getty> its the only language that you can bend to be exactly like you want
[18:50:19] <Getty> there is no limit
[18:50:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> ummm.
[18:50:27] <Getty> i can make a new syntax if i want
[18:50:28] <Getty> inside the language
[18:50:36] <Getty> without going into any "core patching" stuff or anything
[18:50:46] <Getty> i can change any behaviour, every bit, everything how i want
[18:50:51] <Getty> i never hit a wall, i bend walls
[18:51:37] <Getty> tell me another language which allow you to change the syntax ;)
[18:51:54] <Getty> of course "per context"
[18:51:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> without some kind of example, I don't see a use in that.
[18:52:28] <Getty> what examples you wanna see? the practical results are in the cases of people who solve their problems super-specific with those abilities
[18:52:36] <Getty> there is a lot of "lets check if we can do that" modules that show the extend
[18:52:44] <Getty> like a module that lets you write Perl code like Python code
[18:52:56] <Getty> what i like as a nice example is Acme::Magic::Pony
[18:53:12] <Getty> it automatically starts CPAN and downloads any missing requirement, just be being added as module to the perl task
[18:53:28] <Getty> but the complete debugger module chain shows how surpreme everything is
[18:53:58] <Getty> but point is the syntax, as said: everything goes
[18:54:02] <Getty> i dont know what else i could tell about that
[18:54:24] <Getty> we talk about changing syntax... like totally change the syntax for your cases your classes/packages
[18:55:04] <Getty> but in the end we avoid of course doing this pure by administrative reasons, but its a hell of a powerful weapon if you have any old code or legacy, its like you are in the legacy without changing hooking or anyting
[18:55:06] <Getty> its amazing
[18:58:22] <Getty> adding up more: the powerful syntax of functions like sort/map and co. combined with a flexible set of doing the same thing, makes your code ultracompact
[18:59:04] <Getty> if you need just 5 lines now where oyu needed 1 page before, you will in the end scroll far less per file, and so you can get faster to your targets and find what you need to know, i enjoy this a lot
[18:59:10] <Getty> my C code here blows up again 8-)
[18:59:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's called libraries...C has them, Perl has them, they just call them different things.
[19:00:12] <Getty> yeah but your libraries dont give new syntax options
[19:00:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> again, I see no need for that.
[19:00:42] <Getty> yeah, as said, if you wanna be just as effective as you are, then its fine
[19:00:50] <Getty> you just can make yourself more effective with knowing all options
[19:01:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> programming is a hobby for me these days.
[19:01:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> pretty much always has been.
[19:02:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> I fix copiers for a living.
[19:03:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> and,,,,perl doesn't run on AVR, PIC, or 8052 microcontrollers to my knowledge.
[19:03:28] <Getty> yes, thats why other things exist, i never said perl is for all cases in the world
[19:03:35] <Getty> i said its the glue, the standard usage
[19:03:44] <Getty> its the most effective way to handle data, text and whatsoever
[19:03:53] <Getty> the "common things" where its irrelevant which language, cause they all can do it
[19:03:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> the most effective?
[19:03:59] <Getty> yes
[19:04:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> only if you know how to use it.
[19:04:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> then it is effective for you.
[19:04:12] <Getty> 100% sure after experiencing a lot of languages
[19:04:14] <Getty> no
[19:04:25] <Getty> if you say so, but you can go out and make an objective test
[19:04:58] <Getty> the only reason people stop using perl is cause they went to a field for a specialized language for special case, there are no other switcher ;) if you once understand the power you cant not use it ;)
[19:06:03] <Getty> but ok :) if you are anyway happy as said at the beginning then this is all irrelevnat for you
[19:06:23] <Getty> but you are for sure then not allowed to just put perl in the pot with other languages if you dont knoww hat it actually is in compare, just to say ;)
[19:06:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> I've heard your same arguments for a number of other languages.
[19:07:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> one guy put forth that Forth is the ultimate language to do everything and nothing else comes close...
[19:07:31] <Getty> yeah but i have objective reasoning i can explain
[19:07:36] <Getty> and i can show and i do setup in practice
[19:07:41] <Getty> and others do, in compare to other languages
[19:08:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> I was told by the whole US Military that Ada was the end all be all of computer languages and that we needed to recode everything in Ada.
[19:08:10] <Getty> <facepalm>
[19:08:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> this after they spent millions of dollars researching the best computer language to use for everything.
[19:08:38] <Getty> i dont say that about perl i just say that right now if you have something that you need to process and you have no specialized reason and you would know all options, perl is the wy to go fastest
[19:08:41] <Getty> yeah whatever
[19:08:45] <Getty> you are giving 100% meta arguments
[19:08:48] <Getty> lets stop here
[19:08:54] <Getty> its pointless if you dont catch the arguments at all
[19:09:02] <Getty> and say things that are irrelevant to the context
[19:09:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> in order to go with Perl, I would have to learn all the specialized stuff that Perl provides in order to use it...so, for me, it's not the best.
[19:09:49] <Getty> if you dont wanna come forward, then nothing is relevant for you
[19:09:52] <Getty> so it has nothing todo with perl
[19:09:55] <Getty> => meta argument
[19:10:00] <Getty> so far you give 100% only meta arguments
[19:10:04] <Getty> i could talk about bananas
[19:10:07] <Getty> and your arguments fit
[19:10:12] <Getty> so lets stop it here
[19:10:17] <Getty> just dont try to bring on more meta
[19:10:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> "changing syntax" is any kind of specifics?
[19:10:51] <Getty> what is unclear about it?
[19:12:05] <Getty> its btw not onyl the changing syntax, thats a cherry on top which is just unique, the option to have several ways to write the same code is another advantage (and also very unique)
