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[03:30:42] <gorroth> hi there. the datasheet isn't very clear about what MHz the m88 runs when it is at 3.3v and using the internal crystal. anyone know?
[03:31:12] <Xark> gorroth: I believe ~8MHz
[03:32:10] <Xark> Yeah, "ATmega48/88/168: 0 - 10MHz @ 2.7V - 5.5V, 0 - 20MHz @ 4.5V - 5.5V"
[03:33:12] <Xark> Low-voltage V model is slower: "ATmega48V/88V/168V: 0 - 4MHz @ 1.8V - 5.5V, 0 - 10MHz @ 2.7V - 5.5V"
[03:33:30] <Xark> (but still ~8Mhz at 3.3)(
[03:33:50] <gorroth> thanks, yeah, i saw that portion of the sheet, but i didn't really say how fast it goes at 3.3v
[03:33:54] <gorroth> i'll assume 8 MHz for now
[03:34:06] <gorroth> but maybe i need an external clock with a known speed
[03:34:40] <Xark> Well, it is a range, you could probably go 16MHz and it would "work" but 8Mhz is "safe" (and looks like 10Mhz is probably safe too).
[03:34:47] <gorroth> i mainly care because i need to know the frequency for PWMs, etc
[03:34:54] <Xark> Sure
[03:35:28] <Xark> The RC tops out at 8.1Mhz looks like...
[03:36:08] <Xark> 7.3-8.1Mhz
[03:36:14] <gorroth> RC? you mean a resistor-cap?
[03:36:25] <Xark> The RC oscillator is the internal one.
[03:36:44] <Xark> "Calibrated internal RC oscillator"
[03:37:28] <gorroth> oh, right
[03:37:55] <Xark> Work well for non timing critical apps. External if you need rock-solid stability/exact freq.
[03:38:42] <gorroth> yeah
[03:38:47] <gorroth> i'll start with the internal one and play with it
[03:39:10] <gorroth> since this thing is going to be controlled by human input, some error might be okay
[03:39:17] <gorroth> will see when i test it out
[03:39:29] <gorroth> but if all fails, i'll buy an 8 MHz crystal oscillator
[03:39:38] <Xark> If your chip is new, you may need to disable the CLKDIV8 fuse (which will divide 8MHz by 8 to give 1MHz speed from factory).
[03:40:07] <gorroth> i disabled that already
[03:40:11] <Xark> I suspect internal will be more than adequate for any human timing. :)
[03:40:18] <Xark> Cool.
[03:40:22] <gorroth> well, it needs to control motors
[03:40:29] <gorroth> so it needs some precision on timing
[03:40:41] <gorroth> i'll assume 8 MHz for now and just see if the motors respond how i like
[03:40:41] <Xark> Still, those are not nanosecond sensitive AFAIK
[03:40:50] <gorroth> no, they're us sensitive
[03:41:16] <Xark> Yeah, so I bet internal RC is good enough, but yes, you will know soon enough. :)
[03:41:24] <gorroth> :-)
[03:41:26] <gorroth> true enough
[03:41:35] <gorroth> thanks
[03:41:51] <Mr_Sheesh> Hopefully a quick question. Buying an AVR Dragon, thinking of just using SPI programming, is it worth putting a 40-pin ZIF socket into the Dragon nowadays at all?
[03:41:58] <LeoNerd> Generally internal is fine for anything that "about 8MHz" is fine as a description
[03:42:16] <LeoNerd> You'll want an xtal or such if you care about wallclock time, or exact async serial baudrates, or such
[03:42:17] <gorroth> Mr_Sheesh: you planning to use the AVRs at 3.3v or 5v?
[03:42:30] <Xark> Mr_Sheesh: Dragon is deprecated, any big reason to not get Atmel-ICE (about same price)?
[03:42:34] <Mr_Sheesh> 5 mostly, sometimes 3.3V tho
[03:42:55] <gorroth> Mr_Sheesh: i'm just asking, because if you're doing 3.3v, you can just hook an RPi directly to the avr and program it that way
[03:43:18] <Xark> gorroth: Dragon can also do in-circuit debugging
[03:43:31] <Mr_Sheesh> Hmm, interesting, always multiple ways ofc :)
[03:43:37] <gorroth> yeah, that's true, but then you can also have the SPI on the RPi command the AVR for you
[03:43:42] <gorroth> giving you more possibilities
[03:43:58] <Xark> Mr_Sheesh: I have a Dragon and an Atmel-ICE and the ICE is nicer (and works with Atmel ARMs if you every care).
[03:43:59] <gorroth> oh wait
[03:44:03] <gorroth> i see what you said there, Xark
[03:44:04] <gorroth> i misread
[03:44:22] <Mr_Sheesh> Dragon's already inbound, bit late to change that
[03:44:28] <gorroth> i have an SPK500 somewhere
[03:44:35] <gorroth> STK500
[03:44:46] <Xark> Mr_Sheesh: Okay. I think Dragon is better if you use Linux anyways.
[03:44:53] <Mr_Sheesh> stk500 & avrisp v2 here too; missing in the latest move tho
[03:45:02] <gorroth> :(
[03:45:08] <gorroth> i think i have a dragon too, but i haven't used it yet
[03:45:15] <Mr_Sheesh> Yeah, moving there definitely
[03:45:49] <Xark> Mr_Sheesh: Dragon comes in a very pretty golden cardboard box, but it has no real case. :)
[03:46:05] <Mr_Sheesh> LOL I have 3d printer access to some extent
[03:46:55] <Xark> Mr_Sheesh: BTW, to answer your original question, I seriously doubt you want ZIPs on Dragon. I added sockets, but never found then useful. Seems like it is just "proto area".
[03:47:23] <Xark> Mr_Sheesh: Usually you just use 6 pin ICSP connector. :)
[03:47:32] <gorroth> LeoNerd: thanks. if i'm having some issues controlling the motors, i'll look into an XTAL
[03:47:59] <Mr_Sheesh> Yep; I never used the 10 pin ones, multiple standards -rolls eyes-
[03:48:37] <Mr_Sheesh> unless I want to program a bunch of 328p's for someone or something -shrug-
[03:48:44] <gorroth> Xark: red and gold, right? and you have to solder on a piece, right?
[03:49:16] <Xark> gorroth: Yep.
[03:49:25] <gorroth> okay, then i do have that one. i should learn how to use it
[03:49:44] <Xark> gorroth: It works well to e.g., single step 328p (or breakpoints) etc.
[03:50:11] <Xark> (However, I only tried it from Atmel Studio under Windows - it might be possible to get gdb stub working with it for Linux/Eclipse).
[03:50:15] <gorroth> can you use it to debug you avr in the circuit?
[03:50:27] <gorroth> or can the stk500, which i also have and haven't used much?
[03:50:30] <Xark> gorroth: Yes, uses ICSP connector to debug.
[03:50:36] <gorroth> sweet
[03:51:07] <Xark> I think it has trouble on larger AVRs (like >64KB flash)
[03:51:22] <gorroth> that's okay. all my AVRs are puny
[03:51:36] <gorroth> i might have an m128, iirc
[03:52:28] <gorroth> okay, i should attempt sleep again
[03:52:36] <gorroth> goodnight... again... really hoping to do it this time
[04:59:50] <day_> i wonder what the bigger avrs are being used for commercially. the ARMs are already close in price, and I would assume the price difference shrinks even more between the bigger AVRs and compareable ARMs
[05:06:11] <twnqx> i have yet to see an avr in a commercial application :P
[05:16:13] <day_> it is crazy how dominate pic is in the commercial world, and how non existant they are in the hobby world
[05:16:27] <day_> microchip*
[05:16:45] <day_> same with freescale
[05:17:23] <Thrashbarg> what are those silly little OTP micros you get in some Chinese goods, I think they're made by ST?
[05:17:36] <twnqx> pic is crap lol
[05:17:44] <Thrashbarg> yup
[05:17:52] <twnqx> i recently figured out why by bus pirate sometimes switches to a "weird" state
[05:18:08] <twnqx> the firmware exceeds the maximum call depths
[05:18:12] <Thrashbarg> heh
[05:18:39] <twnqx> just the pure idea of such a thing to exist is...
[05:18:49] <twnqx> well.
[05:19:08] <Thrashbarg> personally I think the stored program computer is more trouble than it's worth and Allan Turing released a terrible curse on the planet :P
[05:19:08] <twnqx> first time i encountered it.
[05:20:00] <Thrashbarg> I tend to flow better with analogue ....
[05:33:14] <LeoNerd> Thrashbarg: Eh.. it Alan hadn't done it I'm sure someone else would have around the same time or just after
[05:33:43] <Thrashbarg> yes, so whoever that'd be would have released a terrible curse on the planet heh
[06:40:37] <O0ddity> So I'm pretty new to AVR programming, I'm looking through the source code of a project that I want to modify...
[06:41:40] <O0ddity> How do I learn about the avaliable interupts and memorise all these register names.
[06:42:30] <O0ddity> Aside from looking up the #define for everything and then cross checking datasheets.
[06:43:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> datasheet datasheet datasheet
[06:44:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> I read multiple datasheets before ever getting my hands on an avr.
[06:44:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> all the registers are defined in the datasheet.
[06:44:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> whenever I'm doing avr programming, or programming for any microcontroller, I have the datasheet open and searchable.
[06:46:44] <O0ddity> yeah this datasheet is my whole life for the last few days :/
[06:46:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> only days?
[06:47:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> I've been working with avr in a hobby fashion since 2001.
[06:47:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> datasheet is my first and ultimate reference.
[06:49:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> anyone doing avr work should, in my opinion, read it cover to cover before starting any actual work with the chip....
[06:49:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> most questions asked in here about the chip and its capabilities can be, and are, answered straight from the datasheet.
[06:50:29] <O0ddity> Well yeah thats pretty much what im struggling with
[06:51:30] <O0ddity> I need to figure out how many timing interrupts I have to work with and what is V-USB already using.
[06:51:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> aahh, trying to run before learning to walk.
[06:51:56] <O0ddity> yeah
[06:52:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> v-usb is horribly documented.
[06:52:18] <O0ddity> It seemed like a nice simple thing to begin with....
[06:52:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> it is not.
[06:52:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> v-usb is a C wrapper around an assembly core that is a hack to get it to, mostly, talk on the usb bus.
[06:54:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> much like stargate command, they bypass a lot of safety protocols just to get it to connect.
[06:56:20] <LeoNerd> Hahah
[06:56:25] <LeoNerd> I like that analogy
[06:56:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> at least someone got it.
[06:56:54] <LeoNerd> Yeah, if you're serious about developing USB on AVR, I'd suggest a 32U4
[06:57:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes.
[06:57:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> v-usb takes a lot of processor time and is very timing critical so you end up screwing it up if your interrupt routines or main loop take too much time from it.
[06:59:25] <O0ddity> I know, but I'm trying to get something cheap and readly avaliable and repurpose it so...
[06:59:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> as i've said before, it's a fun toy but not something I would use for a commercial project or anything critical.
[06:59:46] <LeoNerd> 32U4s are pretty common these days
[07:00:00] <LeoNerd> They;re on "Arduino Micro" boards
[07:00:04] <LeoNerd> er, mini
[07:00:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> LeoNerd, I think he is trying to rework an existing v-usb based programmer.
[07:00:09] <LeoNerd> not micro or nano
[07:00:15] <O0ddity> correct
[07:00:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> I prefer using pic32 with hardware usb..
[07:00:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> mainly because they come in a 28pin dip package.
[07:01:05] <O0ddity> 32U4s are in the mail...
[07:15:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> the ability to run them without a crystal and do full speed USB is nice too.
[07:54:36] <aditya3098> Hi, I have a source (another uc) that outputs 4 bytes of UART every 30 seconds or so. How can I have an interrupt setup such that it recieves 4 bytes instead of one interrupt per byte?
[07:55:06] <aditya3098> My reciever is an atmega328p
[08:21:03] <c4017_> aditya3098, atmega328 only has a two byte UART receive buffer, so you will have to read each byte individually anyway.
[08:21:43] <aditya3098> ok
[08:22:25] <aditya3098> but software wise, can I wait for more incomming bytes in the ISR?
[08:24:03] <c4017_> yes, you can just sit in a loop waiting for RXC flag until you have 4 bytes
[10:36:59] <gorroth> omg, avrs are like, the best
[10:37:28] <gorroth> actually, i don't have a real point of comparison, since i've only ever done physical computing with these and the MIT HandyBoard way back in the day
[10:38:20] <gorroth> but with an RPi programming and controlling an AVR over the SPI pins, i'm happy with the possibilities :-)
[10:49:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> your PC isn't physical? Nor the rPI?
[10:51:21] <gorroth> the PC isn't designed for manipulating physical devices very much. you can do it, but it takes more effort than using an rpi or avr
[10:51:32] <gorroth> the rpi can do it, but then you have to worry about voltage levels back into the gpio pins
[10:52:19] <gorroth> so the avr helps with that, and the avr has some special features purpose-built for physical devices
[10:54:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> if you have a parallel port, real world interfacing is a breeze.
[10:55:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> and you always have to worry about voltage levels...with rPI or avr or whatever....it's just that most people think and work in 5V range up till recently.
[10:55:19] <gorroth> well, unless you feedback too much voltage, much like the rpi :)
[10:55:23] <gorroth> and then you can ruin your computer
[10:55:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> can do the same with an avr.
[10:55:39] <gorroth> yeah, but an avr costs a few cents
[10:55:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's why you use buffer chips.
[10:55:59] <gorroth> that's why i'm using the avr
[10:56:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> 74ls244 or 74ls125 or something.
[10:56:03] <gorroth> it's my little buffer
[10:56:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> at least for parallel port stuff.
[10:56:26] <gorroth> also, i don't think my latest system even has a parallel port in-built
[10:56:29] <twnqx> so little voltage reistence....
[10:56:31] <twnqx> reminds me
[10:56:31] <Lambda_Aurigae> but, yeah, I agree, the avr makes a nice little buffer/interface system.
[10:56:36] <twnqx> i need to get my testboards
[10:56:40] <twnqx> or rather, order them
[10:56:41] <twnqx> :3
[10:56:53] <twnqx> they should be able to deal with 230VAC on the inputs
[10:56:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> gorroth, I built a system a year and a half ago that has both serial and parallel ports on the gigabyte motherboard.
[10:57:05] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: yeah. i know there are other ways to do what you're saying. i just like what the avr gives me
[10:57:42] <gorroth> hmm, i think even my system from 5 years ago doesn't have a parallel port
[10:57:52] <gorroth> i believe i had to buy a PCI parallel board for it
[10:57:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> I won't build a desktop without them.
[10:58:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> if I have to go with a pci card for them.
[10:58:03] <gorroth> oh, i'm fine without them, hehe
[10:58:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> my first gen lego robotics wants a real 16550 based serial port.
[10:58:40] <twnqx> me too
[10:58:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> usb-serial adapters don't work.
[10:58:46] <twnqx> usb is comnvenient enough :P
[10:59:00] <gorroth> yeah, if you have some special need, i can see that
[10:59:02] <twnqx> direct IO?
[10:59:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I have an older cnc machine that needs the parallel port too.
[10:59:19] <twnqx> just emulate them better
[10:59:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> twnqx, yeah, it does something funky over the serial...uses the extended port pins.
[10:59:50] <twnqx> i have an "rs232" DCF-77 (german radio time signal in 77khz) receiver
[11:00:07] <twnqx> it poulses some pin based on receiving data or not
[11:00:11] <twnqx> funky.
[11:00:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> but that cnc box runs from an old 486 dx/50 system.
[11:00:25] <gorroth> hawt
[11:00:35] <gorroth> i wish i still had my 486-dx2 / 50
[11:00:40] <gorroth> i overclocked it to 66 though
[11:00:45] <twnqx> i still have a pentium 233 mmx
[11:01:01] <twnqx> binned all older devices years ago
[11:01:07] <gorroth> yeah
[11:01:16] <gorroth> you just have to dump some of that stuff after some time
[11:01:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> gorroth, not a dx2/50...it's a dx/50
[11:01:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> 50mhz cpu, 50mhz bus.
[11:01:30] <gorroth> i know, but mine was a dx2
[11:01:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> dx2/50 was 50mhz cpu, 25mhz bus.
[11:01:39] <twnqx> ... oj
[11:01:42] <gorroth> yeah
[11:01:47] <twnqx> the routing for this board isn't finished :S
[11:01:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> lots of people don't know the difference.
[11:01:54] <twnqx> there are airwires!
[11:02:12] <gorroth> i remember there being a dx2 and dx4
[11:02:16] <gorroth> i didn't know there was ever dx
[11:02:16] <twnqx> yes
[11:02:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> the dx/50 rocked for overall throughput...even blew away the dx4/100 systems that only ran the bus at 33 or 25
[11:02:30] <twnqx> and 5x86 that were basically 486 in disguise
[11:02:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> amd made the dx/50
[11:02:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> 5x85 was a pentium with a 486 bus interface.
[11:02:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> 5x86
[11:02:54] <twnqx> made by cyrix!
[11:02:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> kindof.
[11:03:05] <gorroth> oh, that's why i didn't have ti. i was intel on my system and then citrix when i went to a 5x86 @ 133 mhz or whatever
[11:03:12] <gorroth> except it didn't seem any faster than my dx2 / 50
[11:03:17] <gorroth> oh, maybe it was at 66 mhz
[11:03:21] <gorroth> i can't remember, honestly
[11:03:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> to get the dx/50 to run best you had to have VLB cards that could run at 50MHz....like the trident vlb video card.
[11:03:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> I also have a caching 4 drive vlb ide controller card in that box.
[11:04:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> 4 100MB harddrives with 16MB of cache on the board and 32MB ram on the system board.
[11:05:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> most of those dx2/xx systems were fun to have for the benchmarks but the real world throughput sucked.
[11:06:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> just wish I could get hold of an old kurzweil voice card and software.
[11:09:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> in 1994, 60000 word dictionary with 70%+ recognition out of the box on a 486 dx2/66 with 32MB of ram.
[11:28:52] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: that sounds like an impressive box, for its age
[11:29:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> kurzweil voice was the ultimate in voice recognition in the 90s.
[11:29:19] <gorroth> yeah
[11:29:23] <gorroth> but i mean the box in general
[11:29:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> it got bought by dragon naturally speaking
[11:29:28] <gorroth> you had it very pimped out
[11:29:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> oh, yeah, they were.
[11:29:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> my cnc box is still like that...the vlb boards and raid 0+1 100MB drives and all.
[11:30:09] <gorroth> my 486 dx2/50 with 8 MB of ram back in 1992 (i think) cost my dad $3,000 in 1992 dollars
[11:30:18] <gorroth> i think it was that price
[11:30:38] <gorroth> so we couldn't do what you did, and we didn't know how at the time
[11:30:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> sounds a bit steep to me.
[11:30:47] <gorroth> maybe
[11:30:56] <gorroth> i could be remembering the price wrong, but i don't recall
[11:30:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's more than I paid for mine..but I got it wholesale too...
[11:31:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> I worked for a company that imported the parts and sold computers.
[11:31:07] <gorroth> i thought it was that much, unless it was just $2,000
[11:31:11] <gorroth> i'll have to ask him sometime
[11:31:16] <gorroth> he may not even remember
[11:31:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> but,,,$3000.00 USD was the cost of an IBM PC/XT with dos when it was new too.
[11:32:25] <gorroth> well, either way, the computer lasted me until 1999, using a couple upgrades on it
[11:32:32] <gorroth> that's how much pain i went through
[11:32:48] <gorroth> i had to use DOS 6.22 all the time, because windows slowed it down too much
[11:33:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> 6.22, the release microsoft had to do because they stole the compression software in 6.20
[11:33:41] <gorroth> oh, i didn't know about that
[11:34:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's why 6.22 didn't have the drive compression software.
[11:34:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> we would build these massive (for the time) machines with a 486 with 32MB of ram, then turn 16MB of it into a ramdisk and put the swap on the ramdisk.
[11:34:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> effectively compressing ram for windows 3.1
[11:35:19] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: i was like 13, i think. i didn't know about compression back then :-)
[11:35:31] <gorroth> all i wanted to do was play games
[11:35:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> or copy the c:\windows to the ramdisk and run it from there...massive performance increase.
[11:35:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> hehe..kids.
[11:35:52] <gorroth> :-)
[11:36:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> I was out of the military and on to my 3rd or 4th job by then.
[11:36:09] <gorroth> yeah
[11:36:27] <gorroth> well, if i'm lucky, i'll be seeing the introduction of crazy fast graphene cpus and busses before too long
[11:36:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> nasa tech briefs keep talking about those.
[11:36:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> I'll believe them when I see them.
[11:37:17] <gorroth> and my kids, when i have them, will be like, "dad, why did you use chips that could only go 3.5 GHz? i mean, i can barely get a raytrace out of something that bad."
[11:37:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> kinda like the whole quantum computing fad....never got out of the ground effect plane.
[11:37:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> I remember my first raytracer program.
[11:37:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> on the 486, it took DAYS to do a single image.
[11:37:50] <gorroth> well, samsung did demonstrate a barristor that could make a bit of a graphene-silicon transistor hybrid
[11:37:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> povray
[11:38:08] <gorroth> and i think IBM has more recently said they have a working demo chip
[11:38:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes, and there have been memristors too
[11:38:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> nothing happening on that front that I've seen.
[11:38:46] <gorroth> i think all that stuff still gets used in research
[11:38:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> a working demo chip is still years away from a consumer product.
[11:39:03] <gorroth> i have faith that they'll bring it to market. intel, for example, has a huge reason to want it
[11:39:19] <gorroth> well, they were talking like maybe 2020 timeframe
[11:39:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[11:39:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> our tech innovation curve is flattening.
[11:40:04] <gorroth> for now
[11:40:15] <gorroth> materials science is hard :)
[11:40:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> no big war to push it.
[11:40:38] <gorroth> once they do finally have a working graphene chip, it's going to be balls to the walls
[11:40:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> even the cold war pushed tech innovation harder than we are pushing now.
[11:40:49] <gorroth> yeah
[11:41:02] <gorroth> well, let's see how china and the new ussr push us
[11:41:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> we can't even put a lander on the moon these days, much less people.
[11:41:44] <gorroth> hopefully we will soon
[11:42:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> other countries will set foot on the moon before the USA does..
[11:42:08] <gorroth> and before our own austere policies ruin us
[11:42:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> we might have been first but we will also be last.
[11:42:19] <gorroth> maybe, maybe not
[11:42:34] <gorroth> it's true that the usa is pussified these days
[11:42:39] <gorroth> they're not willing to work hard like in the past
[11:42:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[11:42:55] <gorroth> i feel like i'm one of the few remaining people with strong work ethic
[11:42:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it's getting worse.
[11:43:02] <gorroth> yeah
[11:43:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> our acedemic scores keep going downhill compared to the rest of the world.
[11:43:20] <gorroth> yeah
[11:43:42] <gorroth> perhaps someday i'll leave the usa and go where i think our kids, when we have them, can get a good education and work ethic
[11:43:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> football and basketball are more important in the schools, from grade school through university, than actual learning.
[11:43:49] <gorroth> however, i did get a home in a great area with good schools
[11:43:58] <gorroth> so that should help insulate some of the national problems for a while
[11:44:08] <gorroth> give my wife and me some time
[11:44:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have another solution.
[11:44:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> snip snip...no kids.
[11:44:40] <gorroth> no way
[11:44:44] <gorroth> i'd like a lot of kids
[11:44:49] <gorroth> except we'll raise them properly
[11:44:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> children are vermin.
[11:44:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> that grow up into adults which is worse.
[11:44:58] <gorroth> not to me
[11:45:01] <gorroth> other people's kids are
[11:45:16] <gorroth> because they don't raise them properly and with good work ethic, morals, or whatever
[11:45:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> children are a sexually transmitted disease...and 100% fatal.
[11:45:45] <gorroth> man, i just don't feel that way :)
[11:45:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> I don't either for the most part.
[11:46:01] <gorroth> hehe
[11:46:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> then there are kids I run into(not literally but, one can wish) that fit that perfectly.
[11:46:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> we had preacher's family over last night for dinner...
[11:46:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> two boys,
[11:47:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> the oldest is of an age to fit into my electronics/robotics/microcontrollers training that I do for the local kids.
[11:47:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> but no way I would invite him.
[11:47:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> maybe in a couple of years.
[11:47:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> but he won't listen.
[11:47:54] <gorroth> yeah
[11:48:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> won't follow instructions
[11:48:01] <gorroth> i know what you mean
[11:48:06] <gorroth> they're all little shits
[11:48:10] <gorroth> no discipline
[11:48:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I blame the parents.
[11:48:16] <gorroth> i was at IHOP with my parents yesterday
[11:48:29] <gorroth> these two parents had given each of their three kids an ipad
[11:48:33] <gorroth> and they were also using their own iphones
[11:48:41] <gorroth> i was like, "wtfuck"
[11:48:54] <gorroth> that is not how you foster growth
[11:49:03] <gorroth> i think personal relationships are important
[11:49:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> wife's niece, 26 or so, came over too...brother-n-law's whole family did..
[11:49:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> and older niece pulls out her phone at the dinner table...I took it away from her.
[11:49:48] <gorroth> to me, i thought those kids shoudl be learning how to sit down and shut up, because it's an important life lesson
[11:49:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> told her if she wanted to text, take it outside.
[11:50:05] <gorroth> all this instant gratification stuff is terrible
[11:50:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> my table, my rules, you don't like it, leave.
[11:50:15] <gorroth> they would never be able to sit down and learn how to program an AVR with attitudes like that
[11:50:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[11:50:30] <gorroth> or do anythign that takes a significant amount of your time, like general education
[11:50:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> give them more drugs
[11:50:55] <gorroth> yeah, i'm glad you did that, Lambda_Aurigae
[11:51:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> I got an earfull from the wife later though...hehe
[11:51:30] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: back to something a bit more lighthearted, you said you do some local uC training
[11:51:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[11:51:44] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: yeah, i'm sure you did :) luckily, my wife is onboard with me about how we will raise our kids
[11:51:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> 12 to 18 year olds give or take.
[11:52:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> basic electronics, some basic mechanics, simple robotics, and microcontroller projects.
[11:52:12] <gorroth> that sounds pretty cool; how did you get that started and get physical space to make it happen?
[11:52:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have a huge shed.
[11:52:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> I used to work with the local robotics club when I lived out east.
[11:52:44] <gorroth> do you charge a fee just to pay for the basic electronics and things?
[11:52:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> here I know principals to most of the schools in a 30 mile radius.
[11:53:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> no fee for my time. I have a lot of donated, scrounged, and sampled bits and pieces.
[11:53:16] <gorroth> that is really cool
[11:53:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> sometimes if they want hardcover books they buy them.
[11:53:28] <gorroth> yeah, no fee for your time, but i was wondering if you charge a fee to cover hardware costs
[11:53:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> I haven't bought much of anything beyond solderless breadboards in 8 years.
[11:54:08] <gorroth> heck, i should contact my local school district about starting up a 3 month club in the spring
[11:54:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> and even got some of those donated a while back.
[11:54:15] <gorroth> get everyone using AVRs and RPis
[11:54:31] <gorroth> or maybe an RPi would be too much... just some arduinos
[11:54:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> word your requests to your atmel rep properly and you can get all kinds of stuff.
[11:54:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> bah..screw ardweenies.
[11:54:46] <gorroth> oh really..
[11:54:49] <gorroth> hehe
[11:55:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> I got a bunch of atmega1284p chips 4 years ago from my rep...20 of them.
[11:55:06] <gorroth> well, i could get some breadboards, show them how to wire it safely to an rpi, and get the rpi programming the avrs
[11:55:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> I collect older computers.
[11:55:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> desktops and laptops.
[11:55:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> with parallel ports.
[11:55:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> and make simple stk200 programmers.
[11:55:48] <gorroth> that sounds really cool
[11:55:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> 25pin connector, 74ls125, and some wires.
[11:56:17] <gorroth> i'm mainly into the RPi idea because i discovered they're so good at programming AVRs and then being able to use those very same pins for commanding an AVR
[11:56:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> once you get a bootloader on it, you just need a ttl level usb-serial adapter.
[11:56:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> which I make with pic microcontrollers.
[11:56:33] <gorroth> and i'm using both the RPi and an AVR for a small robotics platform i'm making
[11:56:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have an rPIB+
[11:56:54] <gorroth> yeah
[11:57:02] <gorroth> do you write the boot loader, or did you download one?
[11:57:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's too limited for most of what I want to do for it.
[11:57:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> I just use a simple serial bootloader.
[11:57:13] <gorroth> because i'm not currently able to write the bootloaders, i think
[11:57:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> works for anything short of modding fuses.
[11:57:26] <gorroth> i have to learn a lot more about the AVRs to be able to do that
[11:57:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> I found several, modded one to fit my needs.
[11:58:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> hell, there are even v-usb bootloaders that will work on most atmega chips.
[11:58:32] <gorroth> ah, okay
[11:58:47] <gorroth> but i'm just curious if you wrote your bootloader or if you use a preexisting one
[11:58:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> modded a preexisting.
[11:58:59] <gorroth> nice
[11:59:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> as I recall it was the one from atmel for serial bootloader.
[11:59:06] <gorroth> sounds very cool
[11:59:17] <gorroth> oh, i didn't know they provided them
[12:00:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> appnotes are wonderful things.
[12:01:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> avr-109
[12:01:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> google search.
[12:01:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> tells about how to build a bootloader and has a simple bootloader source available.
[12:02:17] <gorroth> yeah, i see something on avrfreaks about bootloader code wrt avr-109
[12:02:36] <gorroth> before i approach the schools about doing something, i'll have to setup some material first
[12:02:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[12:02:48] <gorroth> that way i have some things prepared in advance
[12:02:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> get a plan of action
[12:02:52] <gorroth> otherwise i'll fail badly
[12:02:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> then talk to the principal.
[12:02:59] <gorroth> yeah
[12:03:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> might be a teacher willing to work with you.
[12:03:10] <gorroth> i'll try to make all the projects in advance so i always look like a pro when i'm talking to kids
[12:03:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> they might have a program or club already too that you can help out with.
[12:03:30] <gorroth> yeah, they might in the school district i'm in
[12:03:35] <gorroth> it's all rich kids
[12:03:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> I use Forrest M. Mims III Getting Started In Electronics as an electronics coursebook.
[12:04:36] <gorroth> looks like a good book
[12:04:51] <gorroth> and i suppose since it's for educational purposes, i can freely make handout copies to students :-)
[12:04:55] * gorroth <3 education
[12:04:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's the one I learned on back in the 70s.
[12:05:04] <Lambda_Aurigae> well, not freely.
[12:05:09] <gorroth> yeah, i'm totalyl amateur compared to you
[12:05:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> Mims still wants to make money.
[12:05:23] <gorroth> i'm great at CS, but my EE is on the lower end
[12:05:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have 8 copies of it at home.
[12:05:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> 2 of the original that I learned on and 6 more of the newer edition as of 5 years ago.
[12:05:51] <gorroth> i think educators can freely give out scanned printouts of sections of material without copyright violation
[12:06:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> only certain books..they have to get permission usually.
[12:06:11] <gorroth> oh i see
[12:06:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> I work in the copier industry...run into that all the tim.
[12:06:19] <gorroth> well, an actual educator can help me with that
[12:06:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[12:06:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> Mims actually hand drew all that stuff in those books.
[12:06:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> well worth paying for in my opinion.
[12:07:05] <gorroth> yeah
[12:07:08] <gorroth> i don't mind paying for it
[12:07:18] <gorroth> i just thought i could make some photocopies for a few kids in a classroom setting
[12:07:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> I also have access to lots of "parts" through my job.
[12:07:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> we have a huge bone pile of old copiers.
[12:07:59] <gorroth> i'll keep a few copies the kids can read in the classroom, and then i guess i'd encourage them to buy themselves a copy of the book if they want to take it home
[12:08:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> motors, gears, motor controller chips off the boards, you name it.
[12:08:09] <gorroth> but i'd let them photocopy stuff out of it themselves if they wanted
[12:08:12] <gorroth> not every kid has money
[12:11:13] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: how long do your sessions go each time? an hour or more?
[12:11:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> anywhere from 1 to 4 hours, depending on who shows up and what we are doing.
[12:12:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I try to make it fun and games too...learning with a purpose toward doing something fun.
[12:12:24] <gorroth> well, sounds pretty awesome.
[12:12:27] <gorroth> yeah
[12:12:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have 3 advanced kids who have been coming around for almost 4 years now.
[12:12:36] <gorroth> what kind of games do you have them do?
[12:12:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> they are building battle bots.
[12:12:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> but not the RC kind you see on TV.
[12:13:06] <gorroth> i can only think of some basics like blinking an LED and somehow working up to a robot that follows a line or receiving radio input for R/C control
[12:13:11] <gorroth> yeah
[12:13:19] <gorroth> i can also think of having them do AI bots
[12:13:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> their goal is to collect resources from the arena and use them to shut each other down...autonomously.
[12:13:30] <gorroth> nice
[12:13:41] <gorroth> how do shutdowns work?
[12:13:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> line following is done depending on the group. I like light following.
[12:14:02] <gorroth> oh, light following sounds cool
[12:14:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> well, the system we have right now has these little touch buttons that you can hit with something and shut down part or all of the bot...or get it to drop its extra power pack or something.
[12:14:48] <gorroth> ah, okay. that is very much like what i did in university once
[12:14:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have an analog flashlight leash doggie bot.
[12:14:53] <gorroth> if you pushed the buttons, things went offline
[12:15:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> turn on a flashlight and point at the doggie and it will turn toward you and approach.
[12:15:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> it goes toward the brightest light source.
[12:15:38] <gorroth> sweet
[12:15:43] <gorroth> IR sensors are used for that?
[12:15:47] <Lambda_Aurigae> all done with several CDS photocells and transistors.
[12:15:47] <gorroth> or photovoltaic?
[12:15:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> 2 motor balanced circuit.
[12:16:09] <gorroth> sweet
[12:16:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> 3 cds photo cells.
[12:16:15] <gorroth> do you have them build PID controllers?
[12:16:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> no...pid is black magic.
[12:16:28] <gorroth> yeah
[12:16:33] <gorroth> do you provide a PID module to them?
[12:16:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> although, the 3 with the battle bots are playing with state machines.
[12:16:56] <gorroth> sweet
[12:17:05] <gorroth> sounds like they'll be ready for university
[12:17:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> we have some ranged weapons for them too.
[12:17:23] <Lambda_Aurigae> spring loaded lego canons.
[12:17:28] <gorroth> lol
[12:17:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> from a lego pirates collection.
[12:17:46] <gorroth> that must be pretty difficult to aim
[12:17:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> point and shoot.
[12:18:01] <gorroth> yeah, i know
[12:18:09] <gorroth> but i mean it must be pretty difficult to automate that
[12:18:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have 18 of them that we will make guns out of for the bots eventually.
[12:18:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> naa..
[12:18:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> little lever to fire.
[12:18:38] <gorroth> no, i know the firing isn't hard :)
[12:18:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> just grab the handle, point, push the lever with a servo.
[12:18:45] <gorroth> i mean automating the aiming portion really
[12:18:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's what target lights are for.
[12:19:05] <gorroth> ah, okay
[12:19:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> all the target switches have flashing LEDs on them.
[12:19:20] <gorroth> so they just keep moving around until the brightness if maxed, and then they fire?
[12:19:31] <gorroth> s/if maxed/is maxed/
[12:19:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> now, getting the ranging right,,that can be a bitch....that's up to the programming.
[12:20:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> I showed them how to range find with a pair of sensors with narrow apeture mounted on servos.
[12:20:37] <gorroth> sweet
[12:20:47] <gorroth> i'll have to get my AVR skills up to be able to teach them that
[12:20:56] <gorroth> and maybe even provide a small library for them
[12:21:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> kinda looks like the K-9 range finding radar ears.
[12:21:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> oh, these kids are using pic32 chips for these things.
[12:21:17] <gorroth> btw, are they using AVRs for all this logic?
[12:21:24] <gorroth> or are they using something beefier?
[12:21:47] <Lambda_Aurigae> 50MHz, 256K flash, 64K sram, 28pin dip package, mips processor.
[12:21:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> 32bit mips processor rather.
[12:22:09] <gorroth> okay, so something easier to handle than an AVR for that kind of stuff :)
[12:22:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> not really.
[12:22:20] <gorroth> how much are those?
[12:22:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> harder to work with actually.
[12:22:26] <gorroth> well, it's 32-bits
[12:22:30] <gorroth> so you can do a lot more math
[12:22:47] <Lambda_Aurigae> never bought one...microchip sent me a box of 50 a while back when I told them what I wanted them for...education.
[12:23:30] <hetii> hi L(
[12:23:31] <hetii> :)
[12:23:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> but, you can get them 3 at a time once a month or so through free samples on the webpage, no questions asked really,,,fib on the form a little when you fill it out and tell them you are making something.
[12:23:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> hello hetii
[12:23:36] <learath> Lambda_Aurigae: lol nice
[12:23:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> hell, TI sends me stuff all the time without me asking.
[12:24:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> I ordered samples and bought direct from them for years.
[12:24:06] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: very nice. i'll look into that, but maybe i'll also look into the AVR32 packages
[12:24:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> forget avr32.
[12:24:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> too hard to work with.
[12:24:17] <gorroth> oh really?
[12:24:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> if you need that much, go for arm
[12:24:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> avr32 is dying.
[12:24:27] <gorroth> okay
[12:24:44] <gorroth> well, in that case, i'll stick to using the RPis
[12:24:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> in progression for power, avr(attiny/atmega), pic32, then arm...
[12:25:00] <hetii> I have two circuit:
http://obrazki.elektroda.net/59_1247936291.jpg and
http://obrazki.elektroda.net/6_1234215518.jpg, About transistors I have buz11a or irf540n. With one will be better and drive it directly or by additional transistor ?
[12:25:06] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: yeah
[12:25:24] <hetii> Btw can someone invite me to #electronics ?:)
[12:25:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> I like the pic32mx270f256b because it comes in a 28pin dip package...easy to work with.
[12:25:29] <gorroth> maybe i'll just teach them how to make some minimally useful circuits and robots using just the AVRs
[12:25:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> hetii, not me....I'm not liked there.
[12:25:49] <gorroth> then later introduce SPI (perhaps using a magical library) so that the RPi can start doing most of the thinking
[12:26:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> we do spi and i2c with the avr...lots of little chips to talk to.
[12:27:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> sram, eeprom, port expanders, etc.
[12:27:14] <gorroth> nice
[12:27:29] <gorroth> i won't be starting so advanced; that's a lot of stuff even i dno't know how to do with AVRs right now
[12:27:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> I even have a setup for i2c-lcd displays for them.
[12:27:45] <gorroth> do you provide the libraries to do some of this for them?
[12:28:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> which I combined peter fleury's i2c library with his 16x2 lcd library and stuffed the pcf8574 chip in there.
[12:28:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> oh yea...
[12:28:21] <gorroth> sweeeet
[12:28:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> libs are essential.
[12:28:26] <gorroth> definitely
[12:28:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> so is learning how to mod them.
[12:28:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> fleury's stuff is awesome, even if it is old.
[12:28:47] <gorroth> i think it'd be very hard to teach them all the low-level hardware stuff just to manage some protocols that are just there to help get a task done
[12:29:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> http://homepage.hispeed.ch/peterfleury/avr-software.html
[12:29:41] <gorroth> tasty
[12:30:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> the pcf8574 is a rather pricy(like 6 dollars) 8bit i2c port expander.
[12:30:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> but it's rock solid and just works.
[12:30:20] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I have dozens of them.
[12:30:51] <gorroth> all donated by the companies?
[12:30:56] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[12:31:01] <gorroth> nice
[12:31:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> TI sent me the pcf8574 samples.
[12:31:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> the LCDs I have are mostly ripped out of old gear of various kinds.
[12:31:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> but are mostly standard lcd interface.
[12:31:45] <gorroth> i think i'll just spend a few months getting them to program the AVR to do various things on a robot
[12:31:55] <gorroth> perhaps a second level course could incorporate more advanced rpi stuff
[12:32:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> one of my many projects is recreating the c-64 style basic operating system on an avr.
[12:32:31] <gorroth> plus, i think it might be a bit much for me to build a course doing both rpi and avr right from the start
[12:32:36] <gorroth> especially when i'm also just learning some stuff
[12:32:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[12:32:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> remember, the kids who did it last year can help the new kids this year.
[12:32:57] <gorroth> that's true
[12:33:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's all part of my program, such as it is.
[12:33:17] <gorroth> yeah, and that's good
[12:33:39] <gorroth> i'll probably target high schoolers, since they'll have more patience and knowledge underneath them
[12:33:42] <gorroth> easier for me to start with
[12:33:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> I don't make them give presentations or anything...but sometimes they want to show off and I let them do that.
[12:33:53] <gorroth> yeah
[12:33:56] <gorroth> i'd let them do that
[12:34:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> with the robotics club I worked with, the kids actually did demonstrations for the school.
[12:34:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> and they got a grant from MIT....and won a place at an MIT robotics competition.
[12:34:43] <gorroth> a small end-of-season competition might be fun too. just something that lets them try out their skills building something for a more generally defined task
[12:35:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> got to go out to MIT campus and do the demo there and hang out with the big kids at the university.
[12:35:10] <gorroth> wow, sweet!
[12:35:15] <gorroth> did you go with them?
[12:35:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> this was an open ended robitics thing...you come up with an idea, present it, they give you money to research and build it.
[12:35:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> I couldn't go...had to work.
[12:35:46] <gorroth> that is awesome
[12:35:48] <gorroth> too bad you couldn't go :)
[12:35:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> they didn't win anything at the competition but still had fun.
[12:35:57] <gorroth> yeah
[12:36:01] <gorroth> i would've had fun just going
[12:36:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> their bot was intended to replace ball boys at tennis matches.
[12:36:26] <gorroth> that's a good idea
[12:36:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> it would run across the tennis court and grab tennis ball then zip away and drop the ball in a catch basket.
[12:37:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> used a camera and some colored markers around the court for navigation and for finding the ball.
[12:37:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> had to make sure your shoes and socks didn't have the same colors as the markers or ball though.
[12:38:00] <gorroth> yeah
[12:38:27] <gorroth> how do you find it trying to teach them what a function is?
[12:38:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> one girl had sneakers the same shade of green as the tennis balls.
[12:38:30] <gorroth> and how parameters work?
[12:38:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> the thing chased her all over the court trying to collect her.
[12:38:51] <gorroth> lol
[12:39:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> same way I learned...I just show them.
[12:39:12] <gorroth> yeah
[12:39:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> variables should be easy for high schoolers who have taken algebra 1 at least.
[12:39:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> they should understand functions from that as well.
[12:39:29] <gorroth> did you go into detail about by-value, by-reference, and by-pointer?
[12:39:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> no.
[12:39:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> hell, most people don't use those except for extreme cases anyhow.
[12:40:00] <gorroth> hehe
[12:40:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> K&R Teach Yourself C
[12:40:18] <gorroth> you use that book in the calssroom?
[12:40:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> best book for learning C in my opinion.
[12:40:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[12:40:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> I have 3 copies...including my original from the 80s.
[12:40:38] <gorroth> you don't mean "The C Programming Language" by K&R do you?
[12:40:42] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I have it digital.
[12:40:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> yea...that's the one.
[12:40:48] <gorroth> okay
[12:40:51] <gorroth> yeah, excellent book
[12:40:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> duh...always fuck up the title.
[12:40:54] <gorroth> and very small
[12:40:55] <gorroth> hehe
[12:41:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> K&R wrote C after all.
[12:41:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> they should know what it's all about.
[12:41:10] <gorroth> yup
[12:41:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> my original copy is signed by both.
[12:41:19] <gorroth> pretty dated, but so what :)
[12:41:24] <gorroth> wow
[12:41:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's still C...it is all still relevant.
[12:41:36] <gorroth> yes
[12:41:38] <gorroth> it is
[12:41:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes, there is a lot added to C since then.
[12:41:48] <Lambda_Aurigae> but that is a good starting point.
[12:41:50] <gorroth> only a few minor things have changed, and they'll just pick that up along the way
[12:42:13] <gorroth> this is awesome
[12:42:33] <gorroth> i'm going to finish my AVR/RPi robot, and then i'll start on some ideas for a class
[12:42:38] <gorroth> like an after school club
[12:42:44] <gorroth> and approaching a school with slides and ideas
[12:43:15] <majkrzak> Hi, I'm wondering about connecting electret microphone to digital pin, to handle interrupt when sound amplitude exceed configured level. Am I right that making resistor variable on this circut, and connecting output to pin will be enough?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Electret_condenser_microphone_schematic.png
[12:43:35] <gorroth> Lambda_Aurigae: i have to get back to work; it was nice talking to you :) thanks for the ideas
[12:44:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=connect+mic+to+avr&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#channel=fs&q=connect+electret+mic+to++microcontroller
[12:45:25] <Lambda_Aurigae> majkrzak, you will need to play with that some....that thing doesn't exactly put out pulses for digital input.
[12:46:09] <Lambda_Aurigae> look at the comparator on the AVR for something like an ADC interrupt input.
[12:49:55] <majkrzak> As I readed in Datasheet it seems that ADC didnt let me to mesure more than one input at time, so i decided to try with digital input.
[13:10:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> majkrzak, this is correct...but you will need to convert that mic output to something more digital rather than the analog it puts out.
[13:11:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> but you can cycle through multiple analog input pins and sample them.
[13:11:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> one at a time but rather rapidly.
[18:46:22] <ferdna> guys, help me understand why the computer that connects to the controller for a cnc machine has to be "real time"
[18:46:33] <ferdna> how does this help?
[18:46:56] <ferdna> my undestanding is that the computer all it does is send the gcode to the cnc controller and end of story
[18:48:27] <rue_school> ferdna,
[18:48:36] <ferdna> yes
[18:48:40] <rue_school> depends, what controller
[18:48:51] <ferdna> why
[18:48:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> depends on the cnc device.
[18:48:56] <ferdna> why
[18:48:59] <rue_school> there are two methods, one is to have the motion control on the mcomputer and the other is to have it on the micro
[18:49:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> the one I have is totally reliant on the computer.
[18:49:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> the computer turns motors on and off and reads the sensors through the parallel port.
[18:49:31] <Lambda_Aurigae> no microcontroller on the cnc device at all..just some dumb logic and motor controllers.
[18:49:34] <rue_school> if the computer is doing hte motion control , its more ciritical to have it respond in a timely fashion
[18:49:45] <Lambda_Aurigae> g-code is Not sent to the cnc machine.
[18:49:55] <ferdna> is sent to IC...
[18:50:01] <ferdna> then ic converts to pulses on moitors
[18:50:09] <rue_school> if the computer is just sending general commands, and the micro can buffer a few, then not reponding to a request for more data immediatly is ok
[18:50:32] <ferdna> cool i get it now
[18:50:32] <Lambda_Aurigae> on a controller I'm building for the same cnc machine, you just send g-code over a serial port and let it have fun.
[18:50:45] <rue_school> a real time os means that the amount of time it takes to get to a task is predictable, not good, just predictable
[18:50:57] <ferdna> i see
[18:51:00] <Lambda_Aurigae> with the current controller, when it hits a limit, a sensor triggers an input line on the parallel port and the computer has to stop or reverse the motor.
[18:51:17] <rue_school> as OS like windows may not respond to a task request for a verry long time, if that computer is supposed to be doing motor steps, the speeds will go all over the place
[18:51:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> on the one I'm building to replace it, the microcontroller on the cnc controller handles all the sensor and motor control.
[18:51:49] <ferdna> nice
[18:52:10] <ferdna> i understand it now...
[18:52:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> that way I can drop the g-code onto an sd card and slap it into the cnc machine and let it fly.
[18:52:11] <Tom_itx> Lambda_Aurigae, ever look at linuxcnc?
[18:52:18] <rue_school> I think slicer is using cnc cutter code for its xy plane circles, and thats why the nozzel is on the wrong side of hte line
[18:52:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> Tom_itx, yes...that's what I'm basing much of it on.
[18:52:54] <Tom_itx> they just launched a new version 2.7.0
[18:52:58] <Tom_itx> many improvements
[18:53:10] <rue_school> Tom_itx, I'll use linuxcnc the day I write or find a cam package for linux
[18:53:27] <ferdna> rue_house, there is inkscape, openscad
[18:53:31] <ferdna> and many more
[18:53:33] <rue_school> a proper one that lets you set up operations based on a dxf
[18:53:40] <ferdna> there are
[18:53:43] <ferdna> hold on...
[18:53:45] <rue_school> not from 2d files
[18:53:52] <Tom_itx> there are a few that do 2.5d
[18:54:14] <Tom_itx> anything that does 3d is gonna be windows and cost more
[18:54:17] <rue_school> find me a cam program that will get me select a circle and pocket it out 6mm deep
[18:54:33] <rue_school> free for linux
[18:54:35] <ferdna> Tom_itx, noooooo
[18:54:42] <ferdna> there is maya
[18:54:46] <ferdna> there is openscad
[18:54:47] <rue_school> dosn't exist, its really easy to write, but dosn't exist
[18:54:50] <Tom_itx> rue_house jt has written some routines that do pockets etc
[18:54:56] <ferdna> hold on... i got a list
[18:55:36] <rue_school> they cant take in a dxf and allow you to do operations like trace and pocket
[18:55:41] <Tom_itx> rue_school maybe you should look at what he's done
[18:55:41] <rue_school> I'v looked
[18:55:52] <Tom_itx> he's working on a dxf thing right now
[18:56:01] <rue_school> ... who?
[18:56:04] <Tom_itx> jt
[18:56:06] <Tom_itx> shop
[18:56:19] <ferdna> Tom_itx, rue_school:
[18:56:23] <ferdna> look at this list:
[18:56:24] <ferdna> http://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/p/3d-design-and-printing-software.html
[18:56:33] <ferdna> its huge
[18:56:41] <ferdna> so use blender or maya
[18:56:47] <Tom_itx> i don't want to print plastic toys
[18:56:49] <ferdna> openscad my fab...
[18:57:24] <Tom_itx> i don't like openscad
[18:58:05] <rue_school> there are only two cam packages listed, one is a whole linux distro
[18:58:16] <ferdna> Tom_itx, that is for more advance users... its code...
[18:58:22] <rue_school> I dont want to use windows programs cause I do not want to set up a whole macine just for one program
[18:58:32] <rue_school> a distro of linux dosn't help
[18:58:57] <ferdna> if its in a distro you can run it in other distro
[18:59:06] <ferdna> which one are talking about linux cnc?
[18:59:30] <ferdna> if yes, then you can install just the software in your current distro
[18:59:36] <Tom_itx> rue_school ^^
[18:59:38] <Tom_itx> pm
[19:02:23] <rue_school> none of that is cam tho
[19:02:49] <ferdna> rue_school, give me an example of a cam software
[19:02:53] <ferdna> i will find a good replacement
[19:03:36] <rue_school> ok, mastercam
[19:03:40] <ferdna> ok
[19:03:42] <ferdna> hold on
[19:05:39] <rue_school> I'll give you a spoon and you can go cut a 300' fir tree down with it, that'll be easier
[19:08:22] <ferdna> rue_school,
[19:08:23] <ferdna> https://code.google.com/p/heekscnc/
[19:09:03] <rue_school> Windows version here
[19:09:03] <ferdna> http://www.zwsoft.com/products/zw3dlite/
[19:09:05] <rue_school> ^^ windows
[19:10:27] <ferdna> http://www.hsmworks.com/hsmxpress/
[19:10:30] <rue_school> I think that ones windows too
[19:11:12] <rue_school> MXpress requires SolidWorks 2012 or newer; and Microsoft® Windows Vista®, Windows® 7 (General Release; 64-bit or 32-bit).
[19:11:14] <rue_school> windows
[19:11:22] <rue_school> see?
[19:11:24] <rue_school> all windows
[19:11:43] <Tom_itx> use the force...
[19:11:49] <ferdna> no
[19:11:53] <Tom_itx> don't fight it luke..
[19:11:53] <ferdna> they are python
[19:12:00] <rue_school> if you want to buy me a computer with windows on it, and come over here to deal with it every month, I'll take it
[19:12:00] <ferdna> python runs everywhere*
[19:12:27] <rue_school> which one is python?
[19:12:32] <Tom_itx> what ver windows?
[19:13:16] <ferdna> rue_school, heekscnc
[19:13:33] <rue_school> Get the latest Windows version here
http://www.heeks.net
[19:13:55] <ferdna> itll run everywhere
[19:14:16] <Tom_itx> https://sites.google.com/site/heekscad/news/linuxversion
[19:14:37] <rue_school> ferdna, you running linux now?
[19:14:44] <ferdna> yes
[19:14:54] <ferdna> Tom_itx, nice find.
[19:15:01] <rue_school> great see if you can install it... I'm trying to find the link
[19:15:43] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure what ppl have said about heekscnc
[19:15:50] <Tom_itx> i don't think many use it
[19:16:34] <ferdna> rue_school, i dont need cam software
[19:16:42] <Tom_itx> http://www.sheetcam.com/downloads
[19:16:48] <Tom_itx> some use that for 2.5d
[19:17:44] <rue_school> ferdna, what you cant see is that this will turn into a dead end goosehunt
[19:18:21] <ferdna> nop
[19:18:26] <ferdna> i run linux all the time
[19:18:28] <ferdna> happy with it
[19:18:32] <ferdna> i dont use windows
[19:18:47] <ferdna> i can generate parts with openscad
[19:18:51] <ferdna> just fine
[19:18:53] <rue_school> yea, I'm saying that installing this for linux (I only use linux) will be a runaround with no solution
[19:19:03] <ferdna> nop
[19:19:30] <rue_school> so far libsvn and sbversion are a problem
[19:19:56] <ferdna> what does that have to do with this?
[19:20:15] <rue_school> if I can bridge between makind dxf's and sending gcode to the machine, I'm good
[19:20:30] <rue_school> ferdna, it stops one form being able to isntall it on linux
[19:20:38] <ferdna> nope
[19:20:39] <rue_school> dependency tree man, dependency tree
[19:20:42] <ferdna> no
[19:20:53] <rue_school> https://code.google.com/p/heekscad/wiki/BuildDebianPackages
[19:21:24] <ferdna> rue_school,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jYKMAjzK3A
[19:22:09] <rue_school> you cant make parametric objects in inkscape, and the curves suck
[19:22:56] <ferdna> dxf is just a format
[19:23:00] <ferdna> get blender to do it
[19:23:16] <rue_school> I make dxf's with librecad, its fine
[19:23:21] <Tom_itx> rue_school,
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Cam
[19:23:24] <ferdna> look:
[19:23:24] <ferdna> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfti13XvF8c
[19:25:57] <Tom_itx> rue_school, maybe pycam
[19:26:10] <rue_school> pycam dosnt work
[19:26:16] <rue_school> completely broken, tried it
[19:26:19] <rue_school> it just crashes
[19:26:20] <Tom_itx> i don't use cad cam in linux so i can't say what works and what doesn't
[19:26:32] <rue_school> it was closest tho
[19:26:37] <Tom_itx> you should ask in linuxcnc if you want good advice
[19:26:49] <rue_school> they all use windows
[19:26:56] <Tom_itx> no not all of em
[19:27:02] <rue_school> they do for cam
[19:27:08] <Tom_itx> no not all of em
[19:27:11] <rue_school> or they do everything from stl files
[19:27:24] <Tom_itx> i know some use sheetcam
[19:27:29] <Tom_itx> for 2d
[19:31:18] <rue_school> heeks is trying to compile, I'll see where it gets
[19:31:24] <Tom_itx> rue_house, lcnc also comes with some loadable macros that will do some routines
[19:31:40] <rue_school> anyhow, if I can bridge it, I can finish setting up linuxcnc and get the old machine redone
[19:31:53] <Tom_itx> well consider what i said
[19:31:56] <rue_school> yup
[19:32:07] <Tom_itx> and i can help with that one
[19:32:09] <rue_school> I just really dont want ot have to set up a windoww machine just for that
[19:32:18] <Tom_itx> so use it for other stuff too
[19:32:31] <Tom_itx> i've got it on every win box i have
[19:32:35] <rue_school> its like needing a car so you can honk the horn in the morning to remind the neighbour to wake up
[19:33:02] <Tom_itx> well it's a powerful tool
[19:33:12] <Tom_itx> dated but good
[19:33:27] <rue_school> yea, a 5L with a 4 speed manual
[19:34:45] <rue_school> libopencascade-visualization-dev <-- show stopper, that package dosn't exist
[19:35:18] <rue_school> oh hold up
[19:36:04] <rue_school> oh, ball is still rolling
[19:41:41] <rue_school> CMake Error at /usr/lib/oce-0.9.1/OCE-libraries-release.cmake:732 (MESSAGE):
[19:41:46] <rue_school> there is the show stopper
[19:41:59] <rue_school> The imported target "TKCAF" references the file
[19:41:59] <rue_school> "/usr/lib/libTKCAF.so.2.0.0"
[19:41:59] <rue_school> but this file does not exist. Possible reasons include:
[19:42:35] <Tom_itx> http://youtu.be/stcZAIy2xnE?t=5m52s
[19:42:41] <Tom_itx> pycam overview
[19:42:45] <rue_school> ah, wait
[19:42:56] <rue_school> pycam didn't work last year when i tried, it just segfaulted
[19:43:09] <Tom_itx> how old is your debian?
[19:43:33] <rue_school> I tried it on a completely new install at the time
[19:43:54] <Tom_itx> well i can't comment on it
[19:44:14] <Tom_itx> maybe we should be in robotics instead of avr
[19:44:27] <rue_school> I concluded that the only way I was going to get a cam program was to write one
[19:44:39] <rue_school> we could, avr has enough of its own life
[19:44:47] <Tom_itx> you gave up too soon
[19:45:07] <rue_school> I checked out every dead-end
[19:45:11] <Tom_itx> the bots seem to have cleared out of robotics
[19:45:25] <Tom_itx> check one that isn't dead then
[19:49:55] <ferdna> rue_school,
http://blendercam.blogspot.com/p/blender-cam-description.html
[19:49:59] <ferdna> there
[19:50:06] <ferdna> is called blender cam
[19:51:38] <rue_school> hmm maybe
[19:54:53] <rue_school> uh, wow, this school has a rather fast connection
[19:55:03] <rue_school> 87M in like 10 seconds
[19:55:30] <Tom_itx> you stayin on campus?
[19:55:35] <rue_school> yup
[19:55:46] <Tom_itx> party with the best of em?
[19:55:51] <rue_school> hah
[19:56:01] <Tom_itx> heh figured you'd like that
[19:56:12] <rue_school> all the other courses just startd up today, meaning that everything is now available
[19:56:35] <rue_school> so now the library is open till 9, not 6, and all the shops and labs are available
[19:57:03] <Tom_itx> don't blow anything up
[20:02:30] <rue_school> heeks cannot compile for linux
[20:02:58] <rue_school> oh wait
[20:03:12] <rue_school> it looked like a fail, I dont think it was
[20:03:54] <ferdna> rue_school, you dont compile it. you just execute it...
[20:04:07] <ferdna> like: python programname.py
[20:04:28] <rue_school> you didn't read the instructions :)
[20:04:47] <rue_school> https://code.google.com/p/heekscad/wiki/BuildDebianPackages
[20:04:52] <rue_school> ^^ those are the instructions
[20:06:40] <ferdna> are you running debian?
[20:06:47] <rue_school> yup
[20:07:07] <ferdna> so easy
[20:07:24] <rue_school> no repositories have it, so you have to built it yourself
[20:07:44] <ferdna> but you dont really need to build it
[20:07:47] <ferdna> all you do is run it
[20:07:54] <ferdna> you do need the dependecies
[20:07:56] <rue_school> its c++
[20:08:17] <rue_school> I'm compiling the 3rd part now
[20:08:21] <ferdna> show me the c++ code:
[20:08:22] <ferdna> https://code.google.com/p/heekscad/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk
[20:08:22] <rue_school> the heeks cnc
[20:08:27] <rue_school> ding CXX object src/CMakeFiles/heekscnc.dir/Op.cpp.o
[20:08:27] <rue_school> cd /files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/obj-i486-linux-gnu/src && /usr/bin/c++ -Dheekscnc_EXPORTS -DOP_SKETCHES_AS_CHILDREN -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARGE_FILES -D__WXGTK__ -DHEEKSPLUGIN -DHEEKSCNC -DUNICODE -DTIXML_USE_STL -DOPEN_SOURCE_GEOMETRY -DWXUSINGDLL -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARGE_FILES -D__WXGTK__ -DCMAKE_UNIX -pthread -pthread -g -fPIC -isystem /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/wx/include/gtk2-unicode-release-2.8 -isystem /us
[20:08:27] <rue_school> r/include/wx-2.8 -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/obj-i486-linux-gnu -isystem /usr/lib/oce-0.9.1/../../include/oce -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/src -I/usr/share/heekscad -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/src/../kurve/geometry -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/src/../kurve/messages -I/usr/include/heekscad -Wall -Wall -o CMakeFiles/heekscnc.dir/Op.cpp.o -c /files_loc/programming/src/he
[20:08:30] <rue_school> ekscnc/src/Op.cpp
[20:08:32] <rue_school> /usr/bin/cmake -E cmake_progress_report /files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/obj-i486-linux-gnu/CMakeFiles 14
[20:08:36] <rue_school> [ 19%] Building CXX object src/CMakeFiles/heekscnc.dir/OpDlg.cpp.o
[20:08:38] <rue_school> cd /files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/obj-i486-linux-gnu/src && /usr/bin/c++ -Dheekscnc_EXPORTS -DOP_SKETCHES_AS_CHILDREN -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARGE_FILES -D__WXGTK__ -DHEEKSPLUGIN -DHEEKSCNC -DUNICODE -DTIXML_USE_STL -DOPEN_SOURCE_GEOMETRY -DWXUSINGDLL -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -D_LARGE_FILES -D__WXGTK__ -DCMAKE_UNIX -pthread -pthread -g -fPIC -isystem /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/wx/include/gtk2-unicode-release-2.8 -isystem /us
[20:08:43] <rue_school> r/include/wx-2.8 -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/obj-i486-linux-gnu -isystem /usr/lib/oce-0.9.1/../../include/oce -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/src -I/usr/share/heekscad -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/src/../kurve/geometry -I/files_loc/programming/src/heekscnc/src/../kurve/messages -I/usr/include/heekscad -Wall -Wall -o CMakeFiles/heekscnc.dir/OpDlg.cpp.o -c /files_loc/programming/src
[20:08:48] <rue_school> /heek
[20:09:23] <ferdna> indeed.
[20:09:27] <ferdna> it is cpp
[20:09:33] <rue_school> I like your notion of the universe, I wish it were that easy
[20:09:50] <ferdna> it is really easy to do
[20:09:56] <ferdna> just install cascade, libarea
[20:09:58] <ferdna> and that is it
[20:09:59] <ferdna> the
[20:10:03] <rue_school> yes, I'm on chapter 3 now
[20:10:05] <ferdna> make dir build
[20:10:08] <ferdna> cd build
[20:10:13] <ferdna> cmake ../
[20:10:16] <ferdna> make
[20:10:18] <ferdna> and done
[20:10:34] <ferdna> you dont really need to make a package for debian
[20:10:34] <rue_school> and then for heekscad and heekscnc
[20:11:01] <rue_school> makeing sure to catch build dependencies as they come up
[20:12:24] <rue_school> why do I keep buying 5lb bags of M&M's !?! I just end up eating them
[20:12:45] <Tom_itx> no wonder you don't feel well
[20:12:59] <rue_school> I dont feel well anyhow
[20:13:15] <rue_school> the doc has me set up for some free barium, but I have to eat it
[20:16:23] <rue_school> I wonder if I will be able to light up flourescent lamps by standing beside them
[20:22:06] <ferdna> hehehe
[20:26:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> I got some of that stuff once.
[20:26:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> but didn't have to eat it.
[20:26:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> the nurse was cute though.
[20:27:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> but I was in too much pain from a ruptured appendix to flirt....and I was married and my wife was just outside the door.
[20:30:37] <Tom_itx> sucked to be you then
