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[00:54:01] <twnqx> i don't get chinese market prices
[00:54:21] <twnqx> how can a 5V/5.5A power supply be 2€, 5V/20A 3€
[03:56:53] <malinus> twnqx: they sell things that expensive?
[04:57:17] <twnqx> malinus: imagine, my arduino with 32u4 has cost 4€!
[04:57:32] <twnqx> but it's made in italy (at least says so on the pcb)
[04:59:54] <twnqx> also: damn, i have no clue about the capacity of the li-ion batteries i bought :/
[05:00:41] <malinus> is it made of gold?
[05:00:56] <twnqx> no
[05:05:38] <specing> twnqx: thats.... kinda cheap
[05:06:17] <specing> < twnqx> how can a 5V/5.5A power supply be 2€, 5V/20A 3€
[05:06:29] <specing> I bet netiher can reach 5V/1A
[05:06:35] <twnqx> i bet they cab
[05:06:38] <twnqx> can
[05:06:40] <specing> or stable 5V
[05:06:46] <specing> really?
[05:06:51] <specing> then linkylinky
[05:07:42] <twnqx> http://www.cx-power.com.cn
[05:09:25] <specing> that site looks like my phone when i turn on the 'net
[05:09:35] <specing> I understand exactly nothing
[05:10:18] <twnqx> i bought it in a mall here :P
[05:10:20] <twnqx> in shenzhen
[05:10:58] <specing> :s
[05:11:17] <specing> Tell me how to learn chinese, I want to go to shenzen heaven!
[05:11:36] <twnqx> no idea, i am too lazy
[05:11:45] <twnqx> write specs, they type price into calculator
[05:12:49] <specing> so you don't know chinese?
[05:13:07] <twnqx> nope
[05:13:39] <specing> I need to find a westerner that is actually fluent in mandarin//chinese
[05:13:51] <specing> so I can replicate it
[05:15:51] * twnqx points at WormFood
[05:15:52] <twnqx> :D
[05:16:00] <twnqx> well, i don't even know if he is...
[05:16:31] <twnqx> hm, the small psu makes annoying noise
[05:19:06] <specing> twnqx: thats how it starts
[05:19:12] <specing> then it blows up after a while
[05:19:21] <twnqx> ah
[05:19:22] <twnqx> ok
[05:21:23] <specing> told ya $3 was unreal
[05:21:43] <specing> its not just cheap, it is made of cheap
[05:21:59] <twnqx> ofc
[05:24:20] <twnqx> i didn't expect anything :P
[05:24:34] <twnqx> but the scrap metal value of the case could off set the cost.
[05:24:45] <specing> true
[05:24:56] <specing> wait ... the case is metal?
[05:25:20] <twnqx> yes
[05:25:33] <twnqx> openframe supply
[05:26:10] <twnqx> i don't really understand how it works though
[05:26:19] <twnqx> i can't see the smps controller
[05:26:44] <twnqx> i mean, there just is none
[05:28:37] <specing> pic?
[05:28:46] <twnqx> the 20A one has a PFC stage at least
[05:32:22] <twnqx> grml
[05:32:28] <twnqx> i hate that mtp shit
[05:38:34] <twnqx> sorry,no pics :P
[05:38:41] <twnqx> i can't get that shit to work
[05:39:11] <specing> hehehe
[05:43:06] <twnqx> ok, second one doesn't whine
[05:44:00] <twnqx> time to grab something to eat :P
[05:47:47] <specing> the smaller one or the larger?
[05:53:23] <twnqx> second small one
[05:53:28] <twnqx> we took 4 small, 2 large
[06:21:00] <malinus> twnqx: just don't touch it
[06:21:48] <twnqx> no prob, case is directly on ground/earth
[06:22:25] <twnqx> btw, what's the target in the Makefile (MCU= parameter) for a 32u4=
[06:22:26] <twnqx> ?
[06:23:37] <twnqx> m32u4 i suppose
[06:23:39] <twnqx> >_>
[06:40:52] <malinus> twnqx: avr-gcc? just look up the list
[06:41:17] <malinus> twnqx: also
http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/index.html you can thank me later
[06:41:36] <twnqx> yeahyeah, found it long ago
[06:41:45] <twnqx> fightin with the mssing ldscriopt symlinkj
[06:41:58] <twnqx> on of the things i have to figure out again every time :P
[06:42:17] <malinus> you what
[06:42:47] <twnqx> one*
[06:43:41] <twnqx> /usr/libexec/gcc/avr/ld: section .note.gnu.build-id loaded at [0000000000000e9c,0000000000000ebf] overlaps section .data loaded at [0000000000000e9a,0000000000000e9d]
[06:43:45] <twnqx> that's new.
[06:50:20] <twnqx> so new google knows nothing about it
[06:51:08] <malinus> twnqx:
http://www.atmel.com/webdoc/AVRLibcReferenceManual/mem_sections_1sec_dot_data.html
[06:51:42] <twnqx> well thank you, i know what the .data section contains
[06:51:54] <twnqx> i wonder why i get linker errors
[06:56:38] <twnqx> probably some baaaad misinstallation of either gcc or ld
[07:00:44] <malinus> twnqx: do you get that error even when compiling+linking the simplest example?
[07:00:48] <twnqx> yes.
[07:00:58] <malinus> tried without the makefile?
[07:01:17] <malinus> just like, avr-gcc mcu=x main.c
[07:01:32] <twnqx> well, same thing compiles on my desktop
[07:01:35] <twnqx> 1:1
[07:06:08] <twnqx> fun, works on a third machine
[07:06:16] <twnqx> just not on this O_O
[07:07:01] * twnqx recompiled binutils&compiler
[07:07:06] <twnqx> recompiles* sadly.
[07:13:20] <malinus> twnqx: just use your package manager?
[07:13:38] <twnqx> that's what i am doing :P
[07:13:52] <malinus> oh
[07:14:19] <twnqx> \o/ gentoo \o/
[07:15:59] <jacekowski> or bsd
[07:36:03] <Tom_itx> twnqx, do you think if china is gonna copy something they'd miss the 'made in italy' part?
[07:36:07] <Tom_itx> seriously....
[07:37:53] <twnqx> Tom_itx: i was joking, obviously
[07:38:22] <LeoNerd> It wouldn't be a true copy if you failed to copy that bit ;)
[07:38:42] <twnqx> fucking hell, how do arduino leonardo connectors map to io ports...
[07:39:05] <LeoNerd> So.. Hmm. how do I get started on building an SMT-based board? Guessing that I'll need: the actual boards made, a bunch of SMT components, and probably a replacement iron
[07:39:12] <Tom_itx> i got the kids a nintendo DS a long time ago online and it turned out to be a copy
[07:39:26] <LeoNerd> Kinda loathe to order lots of components until I know I can get the board done, but also don't want to lay out the board for particular component sizes if I can't get those.. :(
[07:39:49] <Tom_itx> so you start with a schematic and board file and find the parts
[07:40:05] <Tom_itx> when you have the parts you can modify packages if needed and lay out the board
[07:40:16] <twnqx> personally, i start with the baord
[07:40:16] <LeoNerd> So actually buy the components..?
[07:40:21] <twnqx> thnen print it
[07:40:25] <twnqx> get the components
[07:40:29] <twnqx> put them on the printout
[07:40:32] <Tom_itx> you need to buy the components
[07:40:40] <twnqx> if it looks good, order the board
[07:41:19] <LeoNerd> Yes I know I need to buy all the bits eventually. I'm just thinking about the order
[07:41:25] <Tom_itx> i actually printed the board layout once and layed the components on a piece of paper for visual
[07:41:32] <LeoNerd> I suppose yes; if I get the components first I can lay them out on paper
[07:42:44] <twnqx> like i said
[07:43:01] <twnqx> design board, get components, put components on paper, order board
[07:43:13] <LeoNerd> That sounds good then
[07:43:16] <twnqx> i once caugt a bad order like that
[07:43:25] <twnqx> ordered a tssop, designed for a soic :X
[07:43:31] <LeoNerd> Oop :)
[07:43:38] <twnqx> so i redesigned...
[07:44:18] <Tom_itx> i did that once too but just rolled the legs under the chip and soldered it like a J lead
[07:44:35] <twnqx> the tssop is half the size...
[07:44:43] <Tom_itx> more of a package width issue in my case
[07:44:49] <Tom_itx> i know that
[07:45:19] <Tom_itx> it was something like a TSSOP wide vs standard iirc
[07:45:50] <twnqx> ah
[07:46:07] <twnqx> like soic flash memory, comes in 3 different widths :X
[07:48:38] <LeoNerd> Still wondering if I can manage 0603 resistors though
[07:49:54] <twnqx> sure
[07:49:57] <twnqx> they are huge
[07:49:58] <Tom_itx> i don't see why not
[07:50:02] <Tom_itx> sure are!
[07:50:12] <Tom_itx> get some tweezers from dealextreme
[07:50:14] <LeoNerd> Yes but you're more experienced at it than me :)
[07:50:22] <twnqx> i stated with them
[07:50:25] <Tom_itx> and some of those SMT containers
[07:53:08] <Tom_itx> http://www.dx.com/p/weitu-stainless-steel-straight-and-angled-tweezerses-2-piece-set-19914
[07:53:48] <Tom_itx> http://www.dx.com/p/10-in-1-smt-electronic-component-storage-box-green-transparent-30-x-23-x-20mm-300119
[07:54:05] <Tom_itx> those are very handy for SMT
[07:54:48] <Tom_itx> http://www.dx.com/p/configurable-storage-toolboxes-3-pack-4727
[07:54:56] <Tom_itx> or the triple wide if you have bigger ones
[08:03:50] <Tom_itx> i made a hand pick and place with a reversed fishtank airpump and a hypo needle
[08:06:37] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/temp/sd_parts.jpg
[08:30:49] <twnqx> meh
[08:30:55] <twnqx> *something* is in this avr
[08:31:04] <twnqx> it just doesn't work with avrdude
[08:31:04] <twnqx> :(
[08:31:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> avrgremlins
[08:31:51] <Tom_itx> add water
[08:32:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> just don't program it after midnight.
[08:33:09] <LeoNerd> I find my programmer often doesn't work right at 3.3V, but is fine at 5V
[08:33:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> LeoNerd, what programmer? usbasp based?
[08:33:34] <LeoNerd> Yah.. dirt-cheap thing
[08:34:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> there are a couple of different ways to do the usbasp interface and one of them doesn't play well with dropping to 3.3V...even though the usb side runs at 3.3V for comms.
[08:35:36] <twnqx> damn chinese arduino clones :>
[08:40:48] <Tom_itx> pop the chip off and put a "GENUINE INTEL" one in er...
[08:41:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> 4004 or 8008?
[11:21:35] <LeoNerd> So... kinda off topic but it's quiet in here anyway and maybe others will know: Eagle free version. I'm not allowed to use it for "commercial purposes". So, for instance, if I use it to generate a PCB layout, get 5 of them made up, I can keep 2 and give the other three away for free; that would be fine.
[11:21:45] <LeoNerd> But for instance, could I sell them "at cost" without making a profit?
[11:22:03] <LeoNerd> I guess this is more a legal question to Eagle, but maybe people here might have an idea
[11:42:56] <vsync1> sell em
[11:43:06] <vsync1> if they sue you deny everything
[11:43:18] <vsync1> but if you do sell them now, i'm gonna bust you
[11:43:30] <vsync1> because you just burned yourself
[11:43:38] <vsync1> i'll be watching you
[11:46:40] <aandrew> lol
[11:46:43] <aandrew> nobody's going to care
[11:46:59] <aandrew> but you should upgrade to the lite version once you've got some profits
[11:47:58] * LeoNerd nod.. "well, I don't want to make a profit on it"
[11:48:12] <LeoNerd> The only real reason to sell the boards is because I can't seem to get them made singly, and maybe other people will want some
[11:48:55] <Tom_itx> LeoNerd as long as you send gerbers in they have no way of knowing where it came from
[11:49:12] <LeoNerd> Ohsure
[11:49:12] <Tom_itx> but technically you can give them away but not for profit
[11:49:21] <LeoNerd> It's a question of ethics though
[11:50:13] <LeoNerd> But now it's a question of "for profit".. e.g. if it costs me $50 to get 5 boards made, I don't think that selling boards at $10 each is "making a profit"; it's simply recovering my costs to make them
[11:50:34] <Tom_itx> that's up to you to decide
[11:50:53] <Tom_itx> just because you're a poor businessperson still violates the rules :D
[11:51:30] <Tom_itx> i don't think i'd worry about it too much
[11:55:45] <aandrew> my ethics end where idiotic corporate policies begin
[11:55:48] <Tom_itx> those are developmental costs
[11:56:01] <aandrew> if you're giving away a piece of software with restrictiosn on size/layers/etc., no worries
[11:56:06] <aandrew> that's fair and understandable
[11:56:14] <Tom_itx> i don't think what eagle does is unreasonable
[11:56:23] <aandrew> but to try to tell me "you can't sell anything made with this" is (IMO) a breach of ethics
[11:56:38] <aandrew> you may as well say "you can't use this software to build anything that will punch a war orphan"
[11:57:13] <LeoNerd> Heh... see; as a mostly-software developer I'm on the opposite side here. I think it's quite reasonable for them to say "hey, if you're going to make a profit by using our software, please pay us to use it" with the additional ability to use it for free if I don't
[11:57:15] <aandrew> hence my eagle-free designed TurboPuncher2000 boards, available on etsy.
[11:57:31] <aandrew> I develop software as well
[11:57:38] <aandrew> I don't think a contract like that is enforceable
[11:57:48] <Tom_itx> dean does the same thing with LUFA
[11:58:13] <LeoNerd> Eh.. I'm not talking about being legally enforcable, I'm talking about it being ethically sound
[11:58:17] <aandrew> I know
[11:58:33] <aandrew> and I'm saying that ethically I think it's fine, especially if you do end up buying the bigger version
[11:58:50] <Tom_itx> if you are questioning ethics i think you know in your mind what is right already
[11:58:55] <aandrew> but ethically I think it's a bigger problem to destroy perfectly functional boards becasue you can't sell them due to some ridiculous license clause
[11:59:14] <LeoNerd> Hmm.. there is that too
[11:59:21] <aandrew> Imean I get and agree with "I'm gonna use the free version SPECIFICALLY to make commercial products" -- I don't agree with that
[11:59:36] <Tom_itx> they have no control over where you send your order or how they handle their business
[11:59:44] <aandrew> but "I'm building these for myself but can't get less than 10 made, I'm gonna just sell the other 8 (even at profit)" is fine
[11:59:55] <Tom_itx> i hear what you're saying though
[12:00:03] <LeoNerd> Mm.. It's a grey line, sure
[12:00:14] <aandrew> which is specifically why I think those kinds of clauses are crap
[12:00:33] <aandrew> as a software (and open hardware) dev I like the CC-BY-NC clause
[12:00:39] <aandrew> you want to use my stuff for personal use, fine
[12:00:49] <aandrew> you want to copy the design and sell a million? not so fine.
[12:01:02] <Tom_itx> what about 3?
[12:01:05] <aandrew> but you make 10 because tha't sthe minimum, need 2 and sell the other 8? I have no problem with that whatsoever
[12:01:12] <Tom_itx> what about 10?
[12:01:15] <Tom_itx> what about 50?
[12:01:20] <Tom_itx> where's the line?
[12:01:33] <aandrew> it's called common sense. look at the intent, not the number
[12:01:50] <LeoNerd> Hrm... I wonder... does CC et.al. have any thoughts on how to handle "development tools"? Given as this is an HVSP programmer, a thing you'd use to make other things
[12:01:51] <aandrew> is the intent to build and sell commercially? or is the extra a surplus from manufacturing?
[12:08:43] <Tom_itx> so petty theft is ok but robbing a bank isn't?
[12:09:17] <Tom_itx> if it were surplus from mfg you should have a commercial license anyway
[12:09:47] <Tom_itx> it could be argued all day i suppose...
[12:09:59] <Tom_itx> i personally wouldn't worry about it too much
[12:29:09] <WormFood> [17:54:05] <specing> I need to find a westerner that is actually fluent in mandarin//chinese [17:56:17] * twnqx points at WormFood <-- I'm far from fluent, but I can usually get by ;)
[13:41:10] <Fleck> I have .hex. how do I "convert" to .asm ?
[13:41:25] <LeoNerd> You'll need a disassembler
[13:41:50] <LeoNerd> avr-objdump most likely
[13:41:51] <Fleck> suggest one, that runs on linux
[13:41:55] <Fleck> ohh
[13:41:56] <Fleck> ok
[13:42:07] <Fleck> thanks
[13:42:10] <Fleck> will try
[14:05:47] <Lambda_Aurigae> at least he didnt want to convert it to C...
[14:06:28] <LeoNerd> Heh ;)
[16:11:45] * LeoNerd eagles
[16:42:31] <aandrew> Tom_itx: less about petty theft and more about intent
[16:43:12] <NicoHood> can anyone tell me why my timer1 clock is messed up after a bootloader execution? line 113 starts before the main, line 155 forces a sketch start for debugging.
https://gist.github.com/NicoHood/c11989f8b176746aa258
[16:43:26] <aandrew> ever been to the grocery store and your kid grabbed something because he was curious and you didn't notice until you got home? did you go back to the store or did you let it go?
[16:43:40] <aandrew> if hte kid did it intentionally to take/hide it, that's theft. it's about intent
[16:44:37] <aandrew> if you are intentionally using Eagle to design boards to sell commercially that is muchd ifferent than getting extras made to make upminimums and selling them to interested parties. If that board becomes wildly popular and you make ANOTHER batch, this time to sell, I consider that intentional disregard of the wishes of the license.
[16:45:12] <aandrew> but yeah, grey areas that we can dance around each other all day on. one of the reasons I don't think they belong in licenses to begin with
[21:18:06] <twnqx> hm
[21:18:35] <twnqx> why is the jtagice3 <100€, but the jtagice mk2 300€?
[21:18:44] <twnqx> anything the mk2 is better in?
[21:19:15] <twnqx> (and no, i am not talking about china, there's a german (solid) online shop that sells it for less than it costs in china
[21:22:51] <learath> most tested
[21:22:57] <learath> uhm. sorry about that
[21:23:00] <Tom_itx> dunno, one is likely faster for sure
[21:23:01] <learath> paste buffer
[21:23:05] <Tom_itx> i know the dragon is rather slow
[21:31:10] <Tom_itx> is the jtagice3 newer?
[21:31:27] <Tom_itx> i hear there's a new one out supporting more protocols than previously
[21:35:17] <Tom_itx> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ATATMEL-ICE/ATATMEL-ICE-ND/4753379
[21:35:22] <Tom_itx> or just the board:
[21:35:24] <Tom_itx> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ATATMEL-ICE-PCBA/ATATMEL-ICE-PCBA-ND/4753383
[22:02:21] <Tom_itx> ^^ is marked as a direct substitute for the jtagice3
[22:09:51] <Tom_itx> twnqx, i think that's the newest one available
[22:11:21] <Tom_itx> and for the bare board version is cheaper than the dragon
[22:35:55] <twnqx> yeahm but having a nice case doesn't seem all that wrong to me ^^
[22:36:50] <twnqx> i wanted to upgrade for quite some time since by jtag mk1 replica is damn slow
[22:36:52] <Tom_itx> and probably cables
[22:36:57] <twnqx> yeah
[22:37:04] <Tom_itx> that looks like the one to get nowdays
[22:37:45] <twnqx> the cable kits are 50€ on taobao :S
[22:38:06] <Tom_itx> may as well get the boxed one for the same cost
[22:40:26] <twnqx> i wonder why they sell bare pcbs
[22:40:37] <twnqx> do they die so easily people have to replace them all the time?
[22:40:58] <twnqx> in that case... time to build a jtagice protector circuit!
[22:41:51] <Tom_itx> just like the dragon.. it's cheaper that way
[22:41:57] <Tom_itx> no frills
[22:42:18] <twnqx> i have a xilinx jtag programmer as well
[22:42:28] <Tom_itx> i wish i did
[22:42:38] <twnqx> the circuitry had voltage conversion for the full range
[22:42:43] <Tom_itx> i've got a board with one on it that would work
[22:42:54] <Tom_itx> what did it cost?
[22:42:55] <twnqx> and is roughly 10 transistors
[22:43:03] <twnqx> can't remember, was years ago
[22:43:06] <twnqx> i think the mk2
[22:43:12] <twnqx> or even first gen usb
[22:43:16] <Tom_itx> for xilinx?
[22:43:22] <twnqx> original xilinx, yes
[22:43:35] <Tom_itx> iirc mine was parallel port
[22:43:51] <twnqx> got it together with a spartan 3 and virtex 5 pcie demo board
[22:44:16] <twnqx> and i can't program my arduino clones :(
[22:44:26] <twnqx> boatloader refses to talk to avrdude
[22:44:30] <twnqx> bootloader*
[22:44:34] <Tom_itx> huh
[22:45:43] <twnqx> which is not THAT bad
[22:46:05] <twnqx> since i can't get my avr toolchain to work on this laptop either, lol
[22:46:32] <twnqx> collect2: error: ld terminated with signal 4 [Illegal instruction]
[22:46:33] <twnqx> hm ok
[22:46:43] <twnqx> was a bad idea to just copy the one from the desktop over
[22:46:47] <twnqx> haswell >> core2
[22:50:27] <twnqx> great
[22:50:33] <twnqx> that is no arduino bootlader
[22:50:46] <twnqx> neither -c stk500 not -c arduino, but -c avr109...
[22:50:50] <twnqx> and then it works!
[22:51:19] <Tom_itx> ha
