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[03:11:14] <megal0maniac> Atmel Studio is being full of crap
[03:12:50] <megal0maniac> Made a new project from existing files. As soon as I add the files other than the main .c file to the project, it falls over. "uint8_t is undefined in this context" kind of scale. And then everything else which is defined anywhere
[03:16:23] <ecilop> ? #include <avr/io.h>
[03:16:52] <ecilop> last AStudios - crap, I agreed
[03:18:22] <ecilop> In need I use 4.18SP + winavr.. But avr-gcc under debian works better
[03:18:36] <ecilop> *4.18SP2
[03:19:38] <megal0maniac> ecilop: It's all there
[03:19:56] <twnqx> it's just crap
[03:20:09] <megal0maniac> It works until I add the files to the project. So yeah, it's probably just crap
[03:20:32] <twnqx> apart from the fact that it only runs on a gaming HAL, it's tries SO hard at being an IDE while.. wlel, being just shit
[03:21:35] <megal0maniac> It isn't that bad. This is the first stupid problem I've had with it
[03:23:53] <megal0maniac> MPLABX is a whole other story.
[03:24:33] <twnqx> well, my biggest issue is that it doesn't run on linux
[03:25:11] <megal0maniac> Well if it's terrible then why is that a problem? :P
[03:25:29] <ecilop> using another makefile?
[03:25:55] <megal0maniac> Aaaah. It seems it's trying to compile the #included .c files without parsing the header file
[03:28:42] <ecilop> Proteus works on linux via wine
[03:29:30] <ecilop> p-cad 2006, proteus 7.7, avr-gcc - my stuff
[03:29:48] <twnqx> emacs, make, avr-gcc is alli need :3
[03:30:12] <ecilop> No schematics?
[03:30:23] <Thrashbarg> Emacs has every single possible thing you'd ever need....
[03:30:29] <Thrashbarg> including a doctor
[03:30:40] <ecilop> No emacs, no vi .. I am not so geek
[03:30:54] <ecilop> I use noobs editors, like kate
[03:31:08] <Thrashbarg> I'm on Windoze so I use Notepad++
[03:31:23] <Thrashbarg> but I prefer vi when I'm on a *nix machine
[03:31:40] <ecilop> Thrashbarg: Use IAR :) good IDE and AVR compiler
[03:31:50] <Thrashbarg> ok cool
[03:31:53] * Thrashbarg investiages
[03:31:57] <Thrashbarg> gates....
[03:32:01] <Thrashbarg> lol
[03:32:12] * megal0maniac throws a brick at computer
[03:33:20] <megal0maniac> It works when I remove the files from the project. Because then AS stops trying to be so goddamn clever and compiling things in the wrong order
[03:33:36] <megal0maniac> AVR-GCC KNOWS WHAT IT'S DOING!
[03:35:28] <ecilop> Does AStudios avr-gcc compiled with -gdwarf-2 ?
[03:35:41] <ecilop> Sorry for my poor english
[03:36:32] <ecilop> My *.elf files from AS have no debugging info in dwarf2 format
[03:41:57] <twnqx> uh, i don't think dwarf2 is common
[03:42:14] <twnqx> i think -ggdb is assumed default
[04:08:35] <ecilop> in linux version ELF have dwarf2 info
[04:08:47] <ecilop> in linux version of avr-gcc
[04:13:07] <twnqx> i see
[04:13:17] <twnqx> maybe AS just strips it automatically
[04:14:19] <ecilop> I specified -gdwarf2 in make file. AS show me error on that
[07:20:26] <MarkX> morning
[09:04:06] <Getty> picotcp? anyone? picotcp?
[09:05:24] <Lambda_Aurigae> never heard of it
[09:07:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> looks like a linux tcp stack
[09:09:03] <Lambda_Aurigae> Getty, don't see any way to download it from their site.
[09:09:19] <Getty> its on github
[09:09:28] <Getty> https://github.com/tass-belgium/picotcp
[09:09:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> no github link from their main website.
[09:09:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> that doesn't bode well.
[09:09:53] <Getty> wait wait, you complain about _THAT_ on an electronic related website?
[09:09:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> and of their 6 projects, 1 has any info at all and that is running on an embedded linux.
[09:09:58] <Getty> are you new? ;-)
[09:10:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> nope.
[09:10:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> I complain about it on what appears to be a commercial website.
[09:10:28] <Getty> there are "some" arch
https://github.com/tass-belgium/picotcp/tree/master/include/arch
[09:10:41] <Getty> yeah well its commercial paid, but its still just an opensource project
[09:10:54] <Getty> actually the most nicest looking webpage of any electronic related project ever seen ;)
[09:11:06] <Lambda_Aurigae> what physical layer does it work with?
[09:11:38] <Lambda_Aurigae> as far as ethernet uplink perhaps? enc28j60 maybe?
[09:11:40] <Getty> you took a look at the arch dir i linked? ;)
[09:11:47] <Getty> its pretty low
[09:11:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> that's processor architecture.
[09:11:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> what uplink architecture? phy layer?
[09:12:15] <Getty> yeah well it has a driver API for this
[09:12:27] <Getty> and we are on that point actually making a driver where we got problems
[09:12:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> then I'll stick with the tuxgraphics tcp stack.
[09:13:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> not as many bits and toys as this one has but it's small and works well for me.
[09:14:02] <Getty> and what you do for files bigger than MTU?
[09:14:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> I don't have any.
[09:14:24] <Getty> yeah then thats why you can use that ;)
[09:14:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's an embedded stack running on a cpu with 8K of flash and even less ram.
[09:14:49] <Getty> and?
[09:15:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> no need for large files.
[09:15:02] <Getty> it should still deliver an INDEX.HTM from the FatFs from the webserver?
[09:15:06] <Getty> oh really?
[09:15:11] <Getty> LOL ;)
[09:15:14] <Getty> yeah thats what the customer wants
[09:15:23] <Lambda_Aurigae> I am my customer.
[09:15:28] <Getty> a device with network which needs an additional device to deliver its webpage ;)
[09:15:30] <Lambda_Aurigae> I don't do commercial projects anymore.
[09:15:34] <Getty> yeah sorry, but we are in reality
[09:15:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> and I am in hobby.
[09:15:57] <Getty> yeah sure that helps us all now
[09:15:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> will that picotcp run on an atmega88?
[09:16:23] <Getty> i am not helping your hobby, commercial problems here ;)
[09:16:42] <Getty> <facepalm>
[09:17:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> tuxgraphics tcp stack will...I doubt picoc will.
[09:17:27] <Getty> just to make it clear: you tried to "explain" to me why its not required by explaining the size of the MCU which is logical no reasoning just for yu
[09:17:32] <Getty> what?!
[09:17:38] <Getty> i explained it to you already
[09:17:43] <Getty> [14:54:26] <Getty> and what you do for files bigger than MTU?
[09:17:54] <Getty> cause that is what tuxgraphics stack not does, and so thats why we cant use it
[09:17:58] <Getty> did this reached you now finally?
[09:20:26] <twnqx> Lambda_Aurigae: and why would you complain about companies open-sourcing their libraries instead of saying thank you, exactly?
[09:20:48] <Getty> twnqx: i already praise them for making webpage of the project which doesnt make me puke
[09:21:00] <Getty> twnqx: that is RARE in electronics ;-)
[09:21:09] <brabo> plus the docs are better tzhan of a lot of hardware projects
[09:21:11] <brabo> :p
[09:21:24] <Getty> its really an awesome project and its sad that we struggle with it now
[09:21:27] <brabo> *than of a lot of the software for hardware
[09:22:15] <twnqx> well, i personally agree that an AVR is not the right target for it, but then i don't really believe in using sub-arm for networking
[09:23:12] <Getty> twnqx: if you would ask me today, i would not make it with xmega anymore
[09:23:23] <Getty> twnqx: this is for sure our last mega thing we make, i am so done with this crap
[09:23:39] <Getty> even if ARM is the same crap at many points i will be at least on the modern crap ;-)
[09:24:00] <twnqx> at least more ram and flash
[09:24:10] <Getty> yeah well.... not really ;)
[09:24:26] <Getty> if you see most of the ARMs of Atmel (and remove the overhead you have on arm at all) you are not THAT much more into ;)
[09:24:34] <Getty> but yeah other ARMs are that, yes
[09:24:59] <Getty> my dad picked now the STM things for our next stage
[09:25:10] <twnqx> i think i looked at those as well
[09:25:17] <Getty> but NOW we have that xmega here and have todo it with that one
[09:25:24] <twnqx> the one thing why i haven't switched to arm yet
[09:25:25] <Getty> and best in the next 24 hours 8-)
[09:25:34] <twnqx> is the lack of flash programming tools for linux
[09:25:51] <Getty> but i think that situation has changed, or? :)
[09:25:56] <twnqx> no
[09:26:05] <twnqx> since every vendor has their own tools
[09:26:08] <twnqx> and programmers
[09:27:08] <Getty> lets say, it should be not a big deal if you are into bootloader
[09:27:21] <Getty> you would once make your master concept and so work on that
[09:27:31] * twnqx never used bootloaders
[09:27:37] <Getty> right now, we are so stucked, and the customer wanna see the prototype of the concept
[09:27:45] <Getty> you should ;) for sure, you should.....
[09:28:03] <Getty> and since i know that SD card is like the most easiest thing you can attach to your device....
[09:35:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> I didn't complain about it being open sourced. Just saying that for a pico tcp stack it isn't very small.
[09:35:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it won't do for what I need.
[09:35:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> so to answer the initial question,,,no thanks.
[09:36:59] <Getty> the inital question was if someone uses it, its pretty rare in a chanel to go in and ask "who wanna use it???"
[09:37:05] <Getty> you are a pretty awkward person
[09:37:13] <brabo> Lambda_Aurigae: size is not that bad.. my current app code + pico(tcp, udp, dhcpc, dnsc, hhtpd) is still ~70k
[09:37:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> <Getty> picotcp? anyone? picotcp?
[09:37:26] <Getty> yes
[09:37:29] <Getty> anyone using it
[09:37:31] <Getty> <facepalm>
[09:37:35] <Lambda_Aurigae> says nothing about anyone using it....hehe
[09:37:39] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes, I am difficult.
[09:37:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> it's sunday.
[09:37:43] <Getty> did you really thought i am at a market and cry out for selling a product?
[09:37:44] <Getty> seriously?
[09:37:49] <Getty> i mean....... get your shit together ;)
[09:37:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> dunno...it happens.
[09:37:54] <Getty> ??????
[09:38:02] <Getty> no..... it doesnt.....
[09:38:16] <Lambda_Aurigae> have had people come in here wanting people to help them build and sell their commercial project.
[09:38:23] <Getty> NOT WITHOUT A LINK
[09:38:41] <Getty> yaeh well that is what we do, and that is what most here i hope o
[09:38:42] * twnqx links www.atmel.com !
[09:38:42] <Getty> do
[09:38:54] <Getty> thats the point of opensource, independent of commercial or hobby interest
[09:38:57] <twnqx> no, i am just using avrs to solve my problems :3
[09:39:11] <Getty> you are REALLY an awkward person if you think that way
[09:39:19] <twnqx> so never beyond a few k loc
[09:39:23] <Getty> the commercial aspect allows people to get paid to stay on answering those questions
[09:39:32] <twnqx> and never foreign libs, found all of them too crappy to suite my taste
[09:39:53] <Getty> i bet those here who are the biggest experts are PAID to make mega stuff, and they also have questions and those will be commercial interest background
[09:40:07] <Getty> and noone should care, thats how opensource survives, thats why opensource exist
[09:40:08] <twnqx> might be
[09:40:14] <Getty> cause people convert opensource into commercial aspects
[09:40:19] <Getty> else opensource would be pretty stupid
[09:40:26] <Getty> if it would be not used in commercial context
[09:40:28] <twnqx> i disagree
[09:40:32] <Getty> ???????????????????
[09:40:46] <Getty> yeah well, you are just wrong ;) you cant disagree, its not an opinion
[09:40:51] <twnqx> converting opensource into commercial stuff is exactly why my code stays mine
[09:40:52] <Getty> talk with opensource advocates, they explain it to you
[09:41:05] <Getty> so you dont want android?
[09:41:17] <twnqx> not really, it's pretty crappy
[09:41:18] <Getty> you dont want MacOSX? you dont want Google???
[09:41:24] <Getty> you dont want firefox
[09:41:28] <twnqx> for sure i don'T mant maccrap
[09:41:29] <Getty> you dont want chrome
[09:41:41] <twnqx> and no, google is just interesting in capitalizing my privacy
[09:41:42] <Getty> you dont want mp3 players
[09:41:48] <Getty> yeah well all others
[09:41:54] <Getty> you dont want duckduckgo, you dont want startpage
[09:42:01] <Getty> you dont want literally every webpage that is cmmercial driven
[09:42:08] <twnqx> you got me wrong
[09:42:08] <Getty> they all convert opensource in commercial products
[09:42:11] <Getty> that is your definition
[09:42:13] <Getty> no
[09:42:13] <twnqx> i don't mind commercial stuff
[09:42:14] <Getty> you dont get it
[09:42:19] <Getty> then what the fuck you talk about?
[09:42:22] <Getty> ALL OF THAT IS THAT
[09:42:31] <Getty> everyone converts opensource work into commercial products
[09:42:37] <twnqx> of taking open source and making money of OTHER PEOPLEs work
[09:42:38] <Getty> thats..... why opensource is so cool and so interesting
[09:43:04] <twnqx> yeah, it's interesting getting others to work for free,of course
[09:43:06] <Getty> you should definitly read more up about opensource, probably go to some event, like FOSDEM
[09:43:21] <Getty> you mean spreading knowledge and competence?
[09:43:28] <Getty> yeah thats totally "letting others work for you"
[09:43:47] <Getty> i mean, if you dont get the concept of IRC support and the spreading aspect, you should get information about this from people who do it like 10< years
[09:43:53] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes, it looks like an interesting project. It is not complete for what I would need it for. It is too big for what I would use it for. Tuxgraphics TCP stack is more than sufficient.
[09:44:02] <Getty> noone cares for what you use the information, the stability is assured through the concept of _HOW_ you give the information
[09:44:11] <Getty> that is then leading to better documentation and reducing of questions at all
[09:44:16] <twnqx> and again you got me wrong
[09:44:21] <Getty> in the end you dont need to make "uspport" or "work" for others whatever aspect you mean
[09:44:30] <Getty> no you are always castrating something which is p.d. not castratable
[09:44:37] <twnqx> i seek support on irc, and if i know the answer, i give support
[09:44:37] <Getty> every setnence of yours is always heading to exactly that
[09:44:48] <Getty> yes and what you wanted to castrate of that now?
[09:45:02] <twnqx> nothing?
[09:45:04] <Getty> Lambda: i dont care about your opinion about the project
[09:45:13] <Getty> Lambda: To repeat it for the 100th time: THAT WAS NEVER THE QUESTION
[09:45:29] <Getty> twnqx: so all the sentence before were all nothing? ok ;-)
[09:45:33] <twnqx> but i surely cba to read into a project at 10:30 in the evening with less than 8h until the alarm foes off
[09:45:34] <twnqx> :)
[09:45:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> you NEVER ASKED A QUESTION other than "picotcp? anyone? picotcp?"
[09:46:16] <Getty> Lambda: dude, all others get it, you dont, do you want to stick on your wrong thinking? are you really that stupid?
[09:46:19] <Lambda_Aurigae> not "does anyone use it?"
[09:46:34] <twnqx> no, i just expressed an utter dislike for taking pieces of open source and turning that into a money-making machine with a little glue
[09:46:40] <Getty> lambda: cause its common on IRC to ask that way, sorry that you are not "on the edge", dont try to think that "how its done in real world" is to be used on IRC
[09:46:47] <twnqx> but juts maybe i've been in china too much.
[09:46:48] <Getty> lambda: that is wrong thinking, so stop making your own world, its ANNOYING
[09:47:11] <Getty> twnqx: aehm................... what you describe has NOTHIN todo with opensource
[09:47:20] <Getty> twnqx: you talk about the general bad production quality of china
[09:47:35] <Getty> twnqx: they dont speicifc do that with opensource, they o that with EVERYTHING, its NOT in ANYWAY opensource specific
[09:47:51] <Getty> twnqx: they just take anything, they copy commercial products, commercial code... they copy anything
[09:48:13] <Getty> and yes thats so ugly shitty
[09:48:18] <Getty> its also a waste of resources
[09:48:31] <Getty> tons of the materials for chip production wasted for this crap
[09:49:11] <Getty> seriously, i dont have a big electronican heart but thinking about china makes it pump 100times harder then the opensource heart does ;)
[09:49:40] <twnqx> you have seen shit yet, but i am under too many NDAs to elaborate
[09:49:52] <Getty> opensource just thinks: "even if china makes shit with it, someone learns how to NOT do it with that"
[09:50:04] <twnqx> they are so, so, so wrong
[09:51:09] <Getty> opensource is messuring itself by market share, china would produce even on 100% share, so opensource is not really caring
[09:51:15] <Getty> i mean, alone that china uses opensource is a win ;-)
[09:51:22] <Getty> (for opensource itself)
[10:08:28] <twnqx> i do not agree that use of opensource is an automatic win without giving back
[10:11:59] <Getty> twnqx: it proves the market share, there is no lose at all == win
[10:12:05] <Getty> twnqx: its for sure no lose
[10:12:23] <Getty> opensource can't "lose" ;)
[10:14:32] <twnqx> but those contributing do
[10:14:53] <Getty> actually a watchable win is also the referencing, as when a product is made with opensource (like bananapi as good example) that doesnt give back, it gives the name more mentioning
[10:15:00] <Getty> what? how they lose?
[10:15:04] <twnqx> i am certainly annoyed that i made the mistake at following someone's request to put my libav parts under lgpl
[10:15:05] <Getty> where is the actual lose?
[10:15:17] <Getty> and where is the lose now?
[10:15:26] <twnqx> to see a libav fork creep up with some additional code
[10:15:38] <twnqx> that is NOT gpl or similar
[10:15:56] <twnqx> but the author pocketing the money
[10:16:46] <twnqx> and ofc not giving back, neither code nor money (and i am certainly not talking about "to me" since a) my contributions are pretty small, and b) i don't really need it)
[10:18:11] <twnqx> i might be annoyed if i find my panasonic bluray player misbehave in exactly the same way that libav does
[10:18:22] <twnqx> at certain formats that were wrong in libav
[10:18:39] <twnqx> but hey, opensource being used is great and beneficial all in itselfm right
[10:19:02] <twnqx> regardless if it just makes some tech giants' life easier
[10:19:49] <twnqx> by ignoring every license
[10:20:15] <twnqx> and making money without giving anything back but crappy products you can buy
[10:22:19] <twnqx> and being able to employ cheap unskilled programmers while experienced bright ones are scrounging the leftovers (again not me, i am not really a programmer for more than hobby and/or solving my own problems)
[10:22:43] <eatyourguitar> where do I start with sram
[10:22:48] <eatyourguitar> never used it before
[10:22:49] <Getty> twnqx: opensource was approved in court several times, so that can be settled, not a nice case, but that must be solved, thats why law exist
[10:22:54] <eatyourguitar> I need like 8mb
[10:23:05] <eatyourguitar> interfacing an arm A4
[10:23:22] <eatyourguitar> M4 rather
[10:24:13] <twnqx> Getty: good luck proving that against a huge company and with the high encryption standards of dvd players
[10:24:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> eatyourguitar, kinda depends on the external memory interface for the arm processor in question.
[10:25:04] <Getty> twnqx: yeah well, thats how it should be
[10:25:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> eatyourguitar, if there is a straight external sram interface it will be simple but I doubt there is.
[10:25:16] <eatyourguitar> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32F407VGT7/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv1cXVJl98d9VVMJD5XuPHb
[10:25:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> eatyourguitar, have you read the datasheet?
[10:25:55] <eatyourguitar> only the first page
[10:25:59] <eatyourguitar> and power
[10:26:28] <Lambda_Aurigae> well, first page seems th indicate there is an sram controller so should be an sram interface.
[10:27:33] <eatyourguitar> Flexible static memory controller
[10:27:33] <eatyourguitar> supporting Compact Flash, SRAM,
[10:27:33] <eatyourguitar> PSRAM, NOR and NAND memories
[10:27:35] <eatyourguitar> this?
[10:27:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> yes.
[10:27:43] <eatyourguitar> ok
[10:28:00] <eatyourguitar> I could use CF?
[10:28:12] <eatyourguitar> is that parallel?
[10:28:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> CF is not SRAM.
[10:28:37] <eatyourguitar> I'm not sure if its fast enough
[10:28:43] <Lambda_Aurigae> CF hooks up just like parallel ATA/IDE device.
[10:28:44] <eatyourguitar> this is for audio playback
[10:28:48] <eatyourguitar> it might work
[10:28:52] <Lambda_Aurigae> you said you needed SRAM.
[10:29:01] <twnqx> no, CF will not work.
[10:29:03] <eatyourguitar> well at first I was thinking an IC package
[10:29:13] <eatyourguitar> but if its CF I would make it removable
[10:29:13] <Lambda_Aurigae> might as well use an SD card.
[10:29:24] <eatyourguitar> thats NAND right?
[10:29:25] <twnqx> that's at least easier to interface
[10:29:32] <twnqx> "yes, but..."
[10:29:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> much smaller, and current technology,,and much easier to interface...just an SPI interface will work.
[10:29:35] <twnqx> it's SPI.
[10:29:54] <Lambda_Aurigae> or you can use, if the chip supports it, the full speed SD/MMC connection.
[10:30:08] <eatyourguitar> that would be great
[10:30:10] <Lambda_Aurigae> that chip does support a CF connection.
[10:30:16] <eatyourguitar> I could use high performance SD card
[10:30:46] <Lambda_Aurigae> it also has a full SD/SDIO/MMC card host interface.
[10:30:51] <Lambda_Aurigae> section 5.3.27
[10:31:30] <twnqx> so do all at once \o/
[10:31:58] <Lambda_Aurigae> eatyourguitar, I suggest reading and understanding the datasheet for the chip.
[10:32:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> as it's an ARM and not an AVR it's not really covered in this channel...
[10:32:38] <eatyourguitar> thanks
[10:33:08] <eatyourguitar> well I thought the same SRAM modules can be used for both
[10:33:18] <Lambda_Aurigae> page 137 starts the external memory interface section.
[10:33:26] <eatyourguitar> so I thought there would be people in here that have sram experience
[10:33:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> which SRAM modules?
[10:33:29] <twnqx> no, it would be... difficult... to use an 8MB sram with an avr...
[10:33:36] <Lambda_Aurigae> there are hundreds of them
[10:33:39] <eatyourguitar> I have never been shopping for sram
[10:33:44] <Lambda_Aurigae> ARM and AVR are totally different devices.
[10:33:48] <eatyourguitar> never learned how to use it
[10:34:29] <Lambda_Aurigae> twnqx, 1Mb serial srams, just need a bunch of them!
[10:34:52] <twnqx> heh
[10:35:14] <Lambda_Aurigae> although I have run 1MB dram SIPP modules with an atmega32.
[10:35:14] * twnqx has 32kB srams on some of hos AVrs
[10:36:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> never could find 4MB sipps...and have been too lazy to solder pins to the 4MB SIMMs I have here.
[10:36:58] <eatyourguitar> old simms from computers?
[10:37:17] <Lambda_Aurigae> yeah.
[10:37:21] <Lambda_Aurigae> 30 pin simms.
[10:37:31] <Lambda_Aurigae> a 30 pin sipp is just like a simm only it has pins soldered on.
[10:37:40] <Lambda_Aurigae> and it fits a solderless breadboard...same pin spacing.
[10:37:54] <Thrashbarg> my last project involved soldering pin headers to a 72 pin SIMM
[10:38:21] <Thrashbarg> bent one row by 45 degrees approx, wedged the SIMM in and soldered
[10:38:27] <Lambda_Aurigae> those aren't 0.1 inch spacing though.
[10:38:32] <Thrashbarg> yea
[10:39:35] <Thrashbarg> I used a two row header
[10:39:37] <Thrashbarg> bent one of the rows
[11:01:30] <eatyourguitar> so you get them free pretty much
[11:01:38] <eatyourguitar> from old scrap computer parts
[11:02:33] <Lambda_Aurigae> yup.
[11:03:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> but dram is much harder to use than sram.
[11:03:12] <Lambda_Aurigae> with sram you just select an address and read or write the data.
[11:03:26] <Lambda_Aurigae> with dram you have to constantly run refresh cycles through the entire memory range.
[11:16:13] <Tom_shop> well dram it!
[14:45:04] <TechChristoph> who wrote the assembly language first ?
[14:49:26] <Tom_L> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1653649/how-was-the-first-compiler-written
[14:49:51] <TechChristoph> thank you verry much
[14:50:29] <Tom_L> glad i could google it for you
[15:29:02] <LeoNerd> Anyone hereabouts successfully firmware-upgraded a usbasp? I have one of these ==>
http://www.protostack.com/accessories/usbasp-avr-programmer like, exactly like the picture. It works on the original firmware but complains about the 'sck' warning. But I get no success out of any replacement firmware
[15:33:26] <Tom_itx> no but i've got a good solution :)
[15:34:22] <LeoNerd> Hm?
[15:34:35] <Tom_itx> one of mine of course
[15:34:41] <LeoNerd> Ah
[15:35:14] <LeoNerd> In hindsight, I wonder if I should have bought the pololu one instead
[15:35:19] <LeoNerd> That has the UART connector as well
[15:35:30] <Tom_itx> have you seen mine?
[15:35:41] <LeoNerd> No..?
[15:35:44] <Tom_itx> i'd get away from the bit banged ones...
[15:35:59] <LeoNerd> As opposed to...?
[15:37:06] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[15:37:35] <Tom_itx> programs alot faster than the bit banged ones too
[15:38:14] <LeoNerd> Not quite sure what you mean bitbanged, in this case
[15:38:24] <Tom_itx> software spi
[15:38:29] <Tom_itx> not hardware
[15:39:04] <LeoNerd> Ah.. hmm.
[15:39:19] <LeoNerd> I think the usbasp is hardware though.. it connects the target SPI port to the mega8's SPI
[15:39:38] <Tom_itx> it isn't
[15:39:40] <LeoNerd> I know this because the firmware upgrade process involves putting a link on the board to connect the target RESET line to the mega8's reset pin
[15:39:43] <Tom_itx> i've made those in the past too
[15:39:56] <LeoNerd> Hrm. Oh, it uses the SPI port but still bitbangs in software?
[15:41:04] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/mini_usb_batch1.jpg
[15:41:14] <Tom_itx> that's using a 2313
[15:41:24] <Tom_itx> same idea
[15:41:50] <LeoNerd> What's the second chip?
[15:42:04] <Tom_itx> i forget now.. some buffer chip
[15:42:10] <LeoNerd> Ah
[15:42:14] <Tom_itx> the buffered ones were better
[15:42:19] <LeoNerd> Level shifting
[15:42:59] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure it was in that case.. i honestly can't remember now
[15:43:05] <Tom_itx> my other one is a level shifter
[15:43:09] <Tom_itx> works down to 1.75v
[15:43:23] <Tom_itx> also supports PDI and TPI
[15:43:31] <Tom_itx> for the xmegas and smaller attinys
[16:04:49] <Casper> does anyone knows how to use the atmel qtouch stuff?
[16:05:08] <Casper> is it mandatory to use their dev tools and all? as in atmel studio and all...
[16:05:58] <Tom_itx> no idea
[16:06:19] <Tom_itx> i would imagine the lib is available separate
[16:06:53] <Casper> yes the lib is avail separatelly, but from what I see you need the qtouch composer, which appear to be an atmel studio module
[16:07:12] <Tom_itx> i dunno
[16:10:09] <nhere> what would be a cheap way to reset fuses? i don't want to buy stk500/600 or dragon
[16:10:50] <Casper> nhere: depend what happened
[16:11:11] <Casper> have you disabled the reset pin?
[16:11:24] <Casper> or just messed up the clock source?
[16:11:35] <nhere> i have made a mistake and set all fuses to 0
[16:11:41] <LeoNerd> What kind of chip?
[16:11:52] <nhere> attiny167
[16:11:57] <LeoNerd> Basically: the answer is HV programming of some kind..
[16:12:09] <nhere> that part i understand
[16:12:17] <LeoNerd> Hmm.. the tinys are often HVSP, but I don't know that one in particular
[16:12:59] <Casper> nhere: look in the datasheet, check if it have a reset disable fuse, i.e. reuse the reset as a gpio... if yes then you need HV programming, if not then you can recover easilly (you just screwed up the clock source)
[16:13:07] <TechChristoph> well then build yourself a hv programmer
[16:13:35] <LeoNerd> I'm partway through having designed mine.. I might turn it into a real PCB soon.. so I could possibly have something to offer folks :)
[16:13:43] <Casper> so, if there is no reset disable fuse, then just use another AVR as an insane led flasher, and use that as the clock source for your borked avr
[16:13:49] <nhere> i was looking for quick hacks like a simple circuit to do it over lpt, or use bus pirate or something similar, but could not find it
[16:14:06] <LeoNerd> nhere: My current attack does indeed use the bus pirate :)
[16:14:24] <LeoNerd> https://metacpan.org/pod/Device::BusPirate::Chip::AVR_HVSP <= you'll just need a +12V source somewhere. If, that is, the chip uses HVSP
[16:14:56] <LeoNerd> Oooh it's a 20 pin thing.. that might mean HVPP then
[16:15:07] <nhere> LeoNerd, heh, i have seen your post on dangerousprototypes forum :)
[16:15:17] <LeoNerd> Ahgood.. glad /someone/ saw it
[16:15:21] <nhere> but yes, i think it will not work for my attiny
[16:15:25] <LeoNerd> I was beginning to think I was shouting into the void
[16:16:12] <nhere> Casper, yes it has an option to disable reset pin and use it as gpio :/
[16:16:30] <LeoNerd> Ahyes; HVPP according to the datasheet. So my solution won't help
[16:17:09] <Casper> nhere: :( HV programming then :(
[16:17:10] <Tom_itx> dragon is it
[16:17:26] <nhere> so, is there any simple hvpp programer that i could try to build?
[16:17:56] <nhere> dragon is 43 EU + taxes
[16:18:05] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[16:19:02] <Casper> there is also some fuse resetter project too
[16:31:49] <Lambda_Aurigae> fuse doctor
[16:31:59] <Lambda_Aurigae> avr based....works for HVPP and HVSP chips.
[16:38:52] <LeoNerd> To be fair, how much will it cost you to build one of those? A dragon for EUR43 might not be that bad
[16:39:19] <LeoNerd> I dislike the Dragon because it's wwaaay too much manual jumpering of wires, trying to be universal. My tiny HVSP board only does the 84 and 85-style chips, but it has ZIF sockets
[16:45:00] <LeoNerd> So here's another ranodm thought: if I get my board fabbed by, say, OSHpark, what do I do by way of actually populating it with components? I have some TTH chip holders, header sockets, and the like, but if I go for surface-mount resistors/caps... I don't currently have any of those
[16:45:20] <LeoNerd> How does anyone else do it? Do you go for TTH resistors as "normal", or take advantage of the smaller size, but then have to supply and hand-solder them somehow?
[16:46:19] <nhere> from what i see, there is no easy way to buy a fuse doctor, building it myself will take a lot of time, so i guess i should either buy dragon or many attitinies for its price :)
[16:47:01] <LeoNerd> Oh, yes that's the other thing. If you don't -actually- want the chip in that state, it's a lot cheaper just to buy a new one and save the chip for the offhand chance of being able to rescue it one day
[16:47:20] <LeoNerd> I'm building a real HVSP programmer because I want a design using all 12 pins of a tiny84, so that means turning off RESET and ISP
[16:56:15] <Lambda_Aurigae> I built a fuse doctor on solderless breadboard with parts I had laying around...if you bought everything, including some stripboard, it shouldn't cost more than 10 or 15 dollars.
[16:58:58] <LeoNerd> Ohyea,h that's also true. If it's a one-shot attack at a chip that's upset, you can just hack up any old thing and it'll hopefully work. My original HVSP board used a 12V supply from bench until I got myself the 662 chargepump chip
[17:00:25] <Tom_itx> LeoNerd, small smt is where it's at
[17:01:27] <LeoNerd> So where do I get resistors/caps from?
[17:01:29] <Tom_itx> 0603 is a good size to work with really
[17:01:35] <Tom_itx> digikey mouser etc
[17:02:04] <Tom_itx> i've done 0402 but the extra time it takes me isn't worth the space difference
[17:02:18] <Tom_itx> hand pick n place with a toaster oven
[17:02:21] * LeoNerd hunts UK suppliers
[17:02:30] <Tom_itx> element13
[17:02:32] <Tom_itx> 14?
[17:02:35] <Tom_itx> whatever
[17:02:37] <LeoNerd> Yes I see your toaster on your site ;)
[17:02:39] <Tom_itx> newark
[17:02:47] <LeoNerd> element14, who are now RS, or Farnell. I forget.
[17:02:55] <LeoNerd> I get the impression they'll sell me reels of 1000
[17:03:08] <Tom_itx> no
[17:03:16] <Tom_itx> well i'm sure they would
[17:03:22] <Tom_itx> they do cut tape too
[17:03:31] <LeoNerd> Hmm.. OK, I'll see what I can find
[17:03:50] <Tom_itx> or you can get assortments off ebay for CHEAP
[17:04:01] <LeoNerd> Mmmm ebay
[17:04:04] <Tom_itx> just depends what and how many you need
[17:04:29] <LeoNerd> Well, something like resistors, if I'm gonna get some fairly standard values like 220R I feel I might as well get more than I need, for spares and "the next project"
[17:04:55] <Tom_itx> just don't get a bunch of what you don't need
[17:04:59] <specing> Farnell is expeeeensiiiveee
[17:05:09] <Tom_itx> yep
[17:05:10] <LeoNerd> Hellyeah :( I tend to avoid them unless they are the -only- source
[17:05:17] <Tom_itx> but it's UK
[17:05:22] <LeoNerd> Also they totally suck at cable. I asked for 5m of RS485 cable.
[17:05:22] <specing> they are usually the only source
[17:05:27] <LeoNerd> So they sent me 1m with another 4m to follow
[17:05:34] <specing> LeoNerd: ha
[17:05:35] <LeoNerd> Because apparently they "only had 1m in stock, but don't worry"
[17:05:36] <specing> hahahahahaha
[17:05:38] <Tom_itx> also ebay has connectors if you hunt
[17:05:48] <Tom_itx> they're china quality
[17:05:58] <LeoNerd> I phoned them up to complain, and the person on the other end didn't seem to understand why 1m + 4m of cable is useless to me
[17:07:30] <LeoNerd> Anyway; I've hand-soldered SOIC8 now, so I know I can do that... how does 0603 compare? That looks kinda small
[17:09:25] <LeoNerd> The going rate on eBay seems to be GBP1 for a strip of 100, so that feels OK anyway
[17:11:42] <Casper> so, atmel qtouch lib require qtouch composer, which appear to require atmel studio...
[17:12:07] <Casper> will know if I need more stuff after this 721MB download
[17:22:40] <learath> LeoNerd: that's awesome
[17:22:59] <LeoNerd> .. what is?
[17:23:12] <learath> LeoNerd: "So they sent me 1m with another 4m to follow"
[17:23:25] <LeoNerd> Oh.. heh.. yeah.. :/
[17:24:44] <Tom_itx> 0603 is easy
[17:24:53] <Tom_itx> LeoNerd, those boards i showed you?
[17:25:02] <Tom_itx> i hand soldered the first couple hundred :D
[17:25:08] <LeoNerd> .. hundred?
[17:25:12] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[17:25:41] <Tom_itx> i decided i knew how by then and moved on to the toaster oven...
[17:26:36] <Tom_itx> you should consider that a project if you're gonna start making boards...
[17:31:19] <learath> you are nuts. just FYI.
[17:31:33] <Tom_itx> who?
[17:32:04] <learath> you. unless that couple hundred was over years
[17:32:36] <Tom_itx> heh
[17:32:50] <Tom_itx> probably within a few months... certainly not years
[17:33:34] <Tom_itx> it _was_ good practice
[17:33:53] <LeoNerd> I'm rather unlikely to be making hundreds on an industrial scale.. just one or two
[17:34:19] <learath> is that the catholic nun "Good Practice"?
[17:35:04] <Tom_itx> LeoNerd, you never know
[17:35:57] <Tom_itx> learath one thing that kicked it off was when the PS3 had that hack they figured out
[17:36:12] <Tom_itx> they all needed the at90usb162 etc for their hack
[17:36:23] <learath> Ahh ok so it was a modchip
[17:36:32] <Tom_itx> to mod their players
[17:36:37] <Tom_itx> reprogram..
[17:36:43] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure what they all did with em
[17:37:03] <Tom_itx> you could certainly tell the difference between them and those that were interested in avrs
[17:37:40] <Tom_itx> and at the time there was a shortage of those chips
[17:38:06] <Tom_itx> i managed to pick up ~1k just before it happened
[17:57:21] <vsync1> tips on peeling flat flex cable w/o microscope?
[17:57:46] <vsync1> well, stripping
[17:58:05] <Lambda_Aurigae> the superflat stuff or like IDE or Floppy cable?
[17:59:26] <vsync1> flat flex, not ribbon
[18:00:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> I do it very carefully with a super sharp blade, like an x-acto blade.
[18:00:30] <vsync1> very carefully, as in how. You go in from the end to split it?
[18:00:55] <TechChristoph> do you know any good rescource for assembler programming for linux
[18:01:03] <TechChristoph> maybe with avrdude and so on
[18:01:10] <vsync1> i'm using an xacto knife atm, but i don't think i can split this from the end
[18:01:12] <TechChristoph> i searched with google
[18:01:26] <TechChristoph> but only found some for windows
[18:01:37] <Lambda_Aurigae> TechChristoph, avrdude is just an uploader....what kind of resource do you want?
[18:01:58] <TechChristoph> some assembler-tutorial
[18:02:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> http://www.avr-asm-tutorial.net/avr_en/
[18:02:09] <vsync1> Lambda_Aurigae ...?
[18:02:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> very old but still relevant...same assembly codes.
[18:02:51] <TechChristoph> so i can load this files also with avrdude
[18:03:01] <Lambda_Aurigae> it produces a .hex file, so, yes.
[18:03:09] <TechChristoph> ok
[18:03:41] <Lambda_Aurigae> that uses gavrasm....it's old but it works...not sure it will work for a lot of the new chips though..
[18:03:57] <Lambda_Aurigae> last update was may 2012.
[18:04:56] <TechChristoph> ok thanks
[18:05:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> atmega88 and similar chips are supported though.
[18:05:55] <Lambda_Aurigae> and a bunch of atxmega chips too.
[18:06:08] <Lambda_Aurigae> and my favorite, the atmega1284p
[18:07:07] <Lambda_Aurigae> I started with that site back in like 2002 or so.
[18:08:11] <Lambda_Aurigae> vsync1, my x-acto blades aren't exactly x-acto...they are surgical scalpel blades...a teeny bit sharper.
[18:09:20] <TechChristoph> i started with c and attinys 2 weeks ago
[18:11:22] <Lambda_Aurigae> keep at it.
[18:11:34] <Lambda_Aurigae> I started with C and atmega32 way back when.
[18:11:50] <Lambda_Aurigae> that site I posted was my first experience with avr assembly.
[18:12:02] <Lambda_Aurigae> about 4 or 6 months after I started with AVR in general.
[18:39:00] <Tom_itx> i think avrgcc is ported for linux on atmel's site
[18:39:09] <Tom_itx> it should have the assembler in it as well
[18:39:15] <Tom_itx> would be for newer chips...
[18:46:57] <Tom_L> yes... here it is:
http://www.atmel.com/tools/ATMELAVRTOOLCHAINFORLINUX.aspx?tab=overview
[18:47:22] <Tom_itx> TechChristoph ^^
