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[00:00:01] <mheld> maybe?
[00:00:06] <mheld> I don't have it enabled
[00:03:20] <mheld> I also don't know why it'd only happen on one of the devices I have
[00:03:22] <mheld> and not the others
[00:05:24] <timemage> mheld, i was trying to get a handle on what you're talking about. but, i'm not as awake as i was a half hour ago.
[00:31:34] * Casper do not knows where to start on all those projects...
[01:19:29] <LeoNerd> Does anyone know why the AVR HVSP documentation is quite the way it is? It makes it look a little more complex than things actually seem to be
[01:20:01] <LeoNerd> The docs all make it look like an 11-bit transfer serial protocol; but on input the first and the final two bits are always zero, and on output the final three bits don't matter.. so it's really just an 8-bit transfer
[01:22:07] <Casper> who knows
[01:22:23] <Casper> now, go look at microchip doc for PIC16
[01:22:25] <Casper> :D
[01:34:53] <timemage> LeoNerd, what documentation are you looking at?
[01:35:06] <LeoNerd> The ATtiny85 datasheet
[01:57:06] <timemage> LeoNerd, it looks like more is being clocked by SCI than the serial transfer itself. it may be that shifting in and then latching the data to what would normally be the hvpp interface.
[01:59:11] <timemage> LeoNerd, first and last two 0s might really be don't-cares that they've just designated as zero in case of future changes. as it is, i'm too tired to think about this.
[06:02:15] <LeoNerd> Sooo.. I have /a/ way to perform HVSP burning of an ATtiny via the Bus Pirate. Annoyingly, the best I can get it down to is 2 UART serial bytes in and out, per bit transferred. Given it's an 11-bit serial protocol, that's 22 UART bytes per AVR byte. I wonder if this is why nobody uses a BP to do it.. ;)
[06:03:20] <Casper> or just that nobody use HVP
[06:06:26] <LeoNerd> HVSP != HVPP
[06:07:03] <Casper> HVSP is what I mean, and nobody do it unless they fucked up the fuses
[06:07:05] <LeoNerd> People tend not to use HVPP on the larger chips because generally it's only for rescuing. But on an 8 or 14-pin ATtiny, you do want it because that's the way to get an extra GPIO pin
[06:07:30] <LeoNerd> Going from 5 to 6 pins makes a lot of difference on a tiny85; especially if I want to use 4 of them to talk SPI to a radio module :)
[06:07:30] <Casper> people just get a bigger IC usually
[06:07:56] <Casper> spi master or slave?
[06:08:27] <LeoNerd> Master
[06:08:35] <Casper> anyway, back to bed...
[06:08:53] <Casper> but the hardware has been quite crippled on the tiny85
[13:19:19] <N1njaneer> Good morning! It's time to wake up and smell the AVR
[13:28:26] <Sevalecan> what if I were to wake up and smell the cortex-m4? D:
[13:30:15] <N1njaneer> Then I would say you're probably in the wrong channel! :D
[13:30:29] <N1njaneer> But that's okay, because it's Cortex-M4 here for me today anyhow :)
[13:30:51] <Sevalecan> hehe
[13:58:56] <skroon> hi
[13:59:17] <skroon> Do i need to have a project openend in order to do some on-chip-debugging with my Atmel-ICE ?
[14:10:33] <Tom_itx> i would think so
[14:11:03] <Tom_itx> it needs the source to follow along
[14:13:57] <skroon> Tom_itx: I was hoping it could just show me the assembly instructions already
[14:23:14] <Tom_itx> it may use the elf file or something for that
[14:57:23] <N1njaneer> skroon: Unfortunatly on the AVR architecture I am unaware of a way to get it to step the machine instruction debugging if you don't have the source files for it. I spent a while last year trying to figure this out to debug problems with an old bootloader compiled under an ancient compiler 10 years ago. No luck.
[14:57:55] <N1njaneer> Atmel wasn't able to shed any light on doing this, either.
[15:32:36] <Casper> N1njaneer: let's claim that it's a copy protection and not a "bug" :D
[15:34:31] <N1njaneer> Casper: Yeah, but not if the chip isn't locked. You can do full disassembly-stepping on ARM no problem :)
[15:35:40] <N1njaneer> But yeah, I agree with you. :)
[15:38:30] <Casper> man I2C appears complicated... multi-master require clock synchronisation... but why?!?
[15:56:00] <N1njaneer> Casper: Because I2C is vendictively complicated :D
[15:56:03] <twnqx> N1njaneer: tried gcc and the jatg bridge?
[15:56:05] <twnqx> avarice?
[15:56:15] <twnqx> gdb and avarice...
[15:56:39] <Casper> N1njaneer: yeah I see that... man my "simplish" project is more and more complex...
[15:56:48] <Casper> might drop the bus idea
[15:57:26] <N1njaneer> I would honestly go with RS485. Much, much, much simpler and far more flexible.
[15:58:48] <Casper> would need to order more chip :D
[15:59:18] <Casper> but for rs485... don't you need a precise clock?
[15:59:51] <N1njaneer> Depends on the speed and tolerance. You need a UART at least. But a ceramic resonator is perfectly fine.
[16:31:25] <Casper> many of my project don't need a crystal
[16:31:47] <Casper> so it's kinda annoying to have to put one
[16:41:20] <Jartza> just fought today with i2c
[16:41:27] <Jartza> thought there's something wrong with my code
[16:41:41] <Jartza> but there wasn't, just the chinese datasheet that was wrong
[16:52:10] <Bushman> after last few days working with AVRs i've came to the conclusion, the hardest thing in all of this...
[16:52:37] <Bushman> the hardes thing in all of this is to find a good box for your project :D
[16:53:19] <Bushman> all the plastic hobby boxes suck and a proper bent sheet metal box costs more than the whole project inside ;/
[16:53:57] <Bushman> to get the proce down you need to order in hundreds
[16:55:07] <jeremyabel> you can get free samples from Hammond
[16:55:48] <N1njaneer> Bushman: That's actually part of the main reason I bought a mill - enclosure needs )
[16:55:49] <N1njaneer> :)
[16:56:05] <N1njaneer> But we use Hammond all the time for quick one-offs. Laser-cut and engrave the faceplates, etc
[16:56:08] <timemage> Bushman, one thing i've found kind of handy is dead pc power supplies. you can gut hem and have an okay enclosure with build in standoffs. sometimes a power switch and led. and mains socket if you need it.
[16:56:28] <jeremyabel> I wish I had a mill
[17:00:09] <N1njaneer> jeremyabel: The smaller table-top ones aren't terribly. I know TomITX has a nice one he uses for making enclosures :)
[17:00:29] <jeremyabel> yeah, if I got one I'd get one of those
[17:00:41] <jeremyabel> I still miss the big bridgeports though
[17:03:14] <LeoNerd> WOO :) I just read the 'signature' bytes out of an ATtiny84 using my home-brew HVSP programmer. :)
[17:03:25] <jeremyabel> wooooo
[17:03:26] <LeoNerd> Turns out: The damn thing works better if you remember to connect up the +12V line ;)
[17:04:03] <jeremyabel> what counts as HV in avr-land?
[17:04:09] <LeoNerd> +12V.
[17:04:23] <jeremyabel> 4huh
[17:04:25] <timemage> LeoNerd, nice.
[17:04:26] <LeoNerd> Not "high", just "higher than the 5/3.3V signalling" that you usually get
[17:04:30] <jeremyabel> right right
[17:04:40] <jeremyabel> I take it there are special HV avrs?
[17:04:46] <LeoNerd> It's what allows you to use the RESET pin as a normal GPIO at up to 5.5V, while still using it as the programming pin at +12V
[17:04:53] <LeoNerd> No; it's a standard AVR
[17:04:55] <timemage> jeremyabel, nope.
[17:05:05] <jeremyabel> oh I see, using the reset pin as normal gpio
[17:05:20] <jeremyabel> useful on a low-pincount IC like the attiny84
[17:05:25] <timemage> jeremyabel, ehh, not so much that either. just providing a voltage on that pin that puts it into that mode.
[17:05:28] <LeoNerd> +12V is a special-case of the reset pin. It's what allows the chip to distinguish HV programming mode, from normal operation; so normally the pin is a GPIO and not the special reset
[17:05:40] <LeoNerd> Even moreso on an '85 ;) That has only 5(+1) GPIO pins
[17:05:46] <jeremyabel> ah
[17:07:01] <LeoNerd> I'd best draw up a circuit diagram before I lose it. Already I've managed to pop two BC547s while making this
[17:07:14] <LeoNerd> For future reference: Those things don't like +12V straight across B-E
[17:07:46] <timemage> LeoNerd, heh
[17:08:07] <LeoNerd> "Who knew?" *shrug*
[17:10:06] <Bushman> timemage: i'm talking about profesionally looking boxes you can try and sell to somone without having to be ashamed of what you just slaped together out of a PC PSU enclosure :D
[17:10:37] <Bushman> what's this Hammond you guys talk about?
[17:10:50] <timemage> Bushman, just a well known enclosure company
[17:11:18] <Bushman> it's US company?
[17:11:52] <timemage> Bushman, erm, maybe. you see them through u.s. distributors.
[17:15:13] <Bushman> when i see or hear "Hammond" i hear "Whiter shade of pale" and see this video in front of my eyes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UwkILPlwBI
[17:16:01] <Bushman> timemage: the question was the other way around in my head... i'm from europe so US is not better for me :P
[17:16:32] <timemage> Bushman, you asked a question that i didn't have a yes or no answer for you. the information i gave is the information i have.
[17:19:36] <Bushman> don't worry about it
[17:20:00] <Bushman> i'll either found them on google or just drop them as an option
[17:21:39] <timemage> Bushman, for what it's worth, they show up on amazon sometimes for similar prices at low quantities. maybe they do there.
[17:23:06] <Bushman> my project is really simple but the enclosure would need few custom holes for 2 XLR sockets, 10 dipswitch, power socket and 3pin servo socket
[17:23:22] <jeremyabel> you have a drill?
[17:23:37] <jeremyabel> get a unibit and drill the holes yourself, it's easy!
[17:24:45] <Bushman> hahaha. don't get me wrong. i can build a prototype enclosure myself especially if i use my (a little wobly) homemade CNC router/mill
[17:25:49] <Bushman> but that's not the point. i was wondering if there is some company that specialize in very low quantity custom made things and is not insanely expensive :P
[17:26:10] <Bushman> otherwise i'd just have to pick a nice stock item and CNC holes in it
[17:26:13] <timemage> Bushman, i'm pretty sure you already know the answer. =)
[17:26:43] <Bushman> i will open a company like this!!1
[17:26:45] <Bushman> :D
[17:27:11] <Bushman> hmm...
[17:28:04] <Toneloc> Apart from DIP packages, vast amount of info available and already having the stuff needed to use them- is there any reason to use AVR as opposed to ARM nowadays?
[17:28:09] <Bushman> maybe if i'd build myself a bending press, i could just order laser-cut sheets and bend them myself, then do the paint job
[17:28:46] <Toneloc> To me, it seems like ARM have dominated,but I think they bring complication
[17:28:48] <Bushman> Toneloc: yes.
[17:29:22] <timemage> Bushman, i've started looking into working with acrylic. though again, not producing professional enclosures.
[17:30:18] <Bushman> acrilic is fun for hobby stuff ;]
[17:30:43] <N1njaneer> Toneloc: That's exactly why Atmel is focusing on ARM these days primarily, with AVR as secondary. XMEGA and AVR32 are falling out of favor compared to ARM.
[17:31:09] <Bushman> but so far for anything that needs to be sold i just cut out holes in hobby boxes and do my best to hide the work being done by me
[17:31:15] <N1njaneer> AVR is established and easy and simple to get going, but stuff like the Cortex M0+ devices do a lot more than AVR devices at a price point which is a lot less. :)
[17:31:24] <Bushman> like using parts that cover up the holes
[17:31:29] <N1njaneer> Bushman: Protocase.com is also great if you need short-runs of stuff.
[17:31:40] <Bushman> but dip switch won't hise it's hole
[17:32:57] <Toneloc> N1njaneer- Yeah, that's the trend with all mcu manufacturers. I want to get into ARM microcontrollers, from the ground up, what do you think is the best setup to go for?
[17:33:25] <N1njaneer> timemage: Most important thing to remember about acrylic is that it will fracture under stress - compression or excessive bending will cause it to immediately shatter. Acrylic is nice because it cuts very easily and is clear, but the shatting part is less than idea. I usually defer over to acetal or ABS or polycarb if I need something more robust.
[17:33:26] <Toneloc> N1njaneer- there just seems to be a mindfield of registers to configure before you get anywhere
[17:33:51] <Bushman> N1njaneer: protocase seem to specialize in 19" rack stuff
[17:34:36] <N1njaneer> Toneloc: Get on of Atmel's dev kits, like the D20XPlained kit - very inexpensive AND includes the JTAG debugging interface built-in on the board, which can then be used to target external boards through the header - so saves you spending $35 for the ATMEL-ICE for SAM JTAG and SWD
[17:36:03] <timemage> N1njaneer, for the most part i don't. for most of what i'm doing this will work fine. these are more utilities that aid me in other work. for the moment i'm not using a saw or anything. just a scoring tool and playing with solvent welding. my few attempts at solvent welding have been pretty crappy so far. but then, i don't actually need the stuff right now. just easing into it.
[17:36:16] <Bushman> "Country: Europe"
[17:36:20] <N1njan33r> Sorry, retype - Freenode connection died X.x
[17:36:21] <Bushman> yea, seems legit
[17:37:01] <Bushman> 00:14:13 < Toneloc> N1njaneer- there just seems to be a mindfield of registers to configure before you get anywhere
[17:37:04] <Bushman> 00:14:38 < Bushman> N1njaneer: protocase seem to specialize in 19" rack stuff
[17:37:07] <Bushman> 00:15:23 < N1njaneer> Toneloc: Get on of Atmel's dev kits, like the D20XPlained kit - very inexpensive AND includes the JTAG debugging interface built-in on the board, which can then be used to target external boards through the header - so saves you spending $35 for the ATMEL-ICE for SAM JTAG and SWD
[17:37:12] <Bushman> 00:16:45 -!- N1njAway [~N1njaneer@d28-23-131-255.dim.wideopenwest.com] has joined #avr
[17:37:41] <N1njan33r> Bushman: Yes, but that's part of what the ASF is for - it will configure a lot of that for you. AVR requires a bunch of registers to be set up as well.
[17:38:13] <Bushman> you mean Toneloc
[17:38:27] <Bushman> ;]
[17:38:36] <N1njan33r> It's not too bad easing in to it, especially if you have AVR experience. I've been bringing up my first two Atmel SAM designs lately - a D20 and a SAM4E16. Both are working fine so far. There's a learning-curve, but it's really not that bad.
[17:38:40] <N1njan33r> Bushman: Yes, sorry :)
[17:39:35] <N1njaneer> there
[17:39:36] <Toneloc> N1njan33r-I'm an msp430 guy, only ever used AVR once and liked it:)
[17:40:03] <Bushman> N1njaneer: apology accepted. please send money to my bank account.
[17:40:07] <Bushman> XD
[17:40:11] <Toneloc> I have a Renesas Arm dev board, but it seems to abstract you quite a bit from the hardware
[17:40:39] <Toneloc> so much so that you don't know why things work
[17:40:52] <Toneloc> and certainly don't know why they don't ! lol
[17:41:37] <Toneloc> so, I guess I want to go in at the start, blink an led, work my way up and do the "hard yards"
[17:41:45] <jeremyabel> :D
[17:42:21] <Toneloc> ST ARM mcu's seem to be the most dominant
[17:43:05] <N1njan33r> Goddamn the IRC connection is bad today X.x
[17:43:13] <N1njan33r> Anyhow, sorry about that.
[17:43:53] <[F_F]> random poll
[17:44:03] <[F_F]> do you "sometimes" hate arduino fan boys
[17:44:09] <[F_F]> I am not talking here about arduino users
[17:44:18] <[F_F]> I am talking here about Arduino Fan Boys
[17:44:59] <N1njan33r> Atmel has done a great job with Atmel Studio, the ASF, and the JTAG connections. The documentation could always be a bit more thorough, but there are thousands of examples that show hardware peripheral use for every device, which is a nice benefit - you have working code to pick apart. And JTAG/SWD to Atmel SAM hardware works every single time. I can't say the same about many other toolchains and
[17:44:59] <N1njan33r> hardware I've worked with.
[17:45:24] <N1njan33r> The latter has probably impressed me the most about Atmel - the toolchain is super stable and actually works like you'd expect. It's... refreshing!
[17:45:34] <Jartza> ST sent me a present
[17:45:38] <Jartza> stm32nucleo
[17:45:48] <Jartza> maybe they want to steer me back to arm-world from avr? :)
[17:46:15] <Jartza> that board seems to be sort of like arduino for stm32
[17:46:29] <N1njan33r> F_F: I think most "fan boys" can often be disliked if they are so single-focused that they end up being counter-productive by limiting their scope of exposure.
[17:46:51] <Jartza> even the headers seem to be arduino-compatible
[17:47:45] <N1njan33r> I think Arduino is a great thing for people getting in to microcontrollers and for learning this stuff as a hobby. There's a much lower point of entry. And for a lot of people it's a skin-deep hobby, they want to do a thing but don't want to invest the years of time to really understand things inside and out and master them. And that's perfectly fine.
[17:47:58] <Jartza> there's other headers too, with "standard pitch", but also looks like arduino shields will fit straight
[17:48:33] <N1njan33r> The biggest frustration I have is when people who don't know enough *think* it is the end-all be-all answer to anything they could ever need. They are too inexperienced to understand why their view is so skewed, and the worst of them are the ones that are hard to explain it to.
[17:49:23] <N1njan33r> Jartza: ST is capitalizing on it, and there's no reason not to. If you can suddenly use a hundred other things with a devkit you are offering, there's a hundred new boards you don't have to engineer. :)
[17:50:02] <Jartza> N1njan33r: yeah, another example of arduino's success though
[17:50:18] <Jartza> but I think also wise move, just for the reason you said
[17:50:57] <N1njan33r> BUT, and here's the BUT --
[17:51:13] <Toneloc> N1njan33r-that sounds good, I will research Atmel Arm
[17:51:22] <Toneloc> thanks
[17:51:25] <N1njan33r> Because you can make it work on Arduino DOES NOT immediately make it ready for the real world.
[17:51:42] <N1njan33r> THAT is part of the major frustration, and even talking to my local Atmel FAE, he deals with this a lot.
[17:52:17] <Jartza> true
[17:52:35] <jeremyabel> N1njan33r: amen
[17:52:44] <N1njan33r> People make something on Arduino, then want to take it to market, and don't realize that it's not always a straight line. There's a lot of other things that factor in to making something ready to deploy. Proofing out the prototype on Arduino is an excellent idea, but deploying on it is... not always the best idea.
[17:52:44] <Jartza> I also have a friend who just learned some arduino basics and now he wants to fill his home with arduinos
[17:52:57] <Tom_itx> poor guy
[17:53:02] <jeremyabel> yeah that's typically how it goes :P
[17:53:18] <Jartza> Tom_itx: no, poor wife ;)
[17:53:37] <Jartza> I can imagine house full of wall warts, arduinos and blinking leds ;)
[17:53:44] <jeremyabel> lol
[17:54:26] <N1njan33r> And as long as people realize that the only things that make Arduino be Arduino are a> some custom board layouts with AVRs b> some custom convenience libraries to make setup and use easier c> a Java-wrapped dev environment that sits on top of gcc and d> the Arduino community
[17:54:27] <Jartza> because the only two things my friend learned was to blink a led and to read button
[17:55:06] <jeremyabel> N1njan33r: god that IDE is terrrrible though
[17:55:12] <N1njan33r> Yes, yes it is.
[17:55:21] <Jartza> has anyone tried the mbed.org yet?
[17:55:28] <Jartza> ...for the arm-stuff
[17:55:42] <N1njan33r> ALL the things that newbie programmers can really benefit from are missing. Especially the ability to do, I dunno.... SOURCE DEBUGGING
[17:55:49] <Jartza> wasn't that supposed to be "arduino ide & community for arm"-kind of stuff?
[17:55:54] <jeremyabel> N1njan33r: seriously...
[17:56:01] <N1njan33r> Jartza: I just use Atmel Studio. :)
[17:56:17] <jeremyabel> <3 me some Atmel Studio, and VS in general
[17:56:18] <Jartza> I also use other stuff
[17:56:25] <Jartza> but maybe I have to try this stm32nucleo out
[17:56:28] <Jartza> just for the heck of it
[18:00:07] <Jartza> hmm. maybe I should go to bed now
[18:00:27] <N1njaneer> The other main observation I have about Arduino is one trap that is prevalent for anything that makes things "easy"
[18:00:54] <N1njaneer> Anything which makes things 'easy' generally hides a lot of details and understanding.
[18:01:03] <Jartza> true
[18:01:14] <N1njaneer> If what you are doing DOES NOT require knowledge of these details, then it is in fact "very easy"
[18:01:29] <N1njaneer> Most basic-to-intermediate Arduino stuff falls in to that realm.
[18:01:40] <N1njaneer> The problem comes when you need deeper mastery of things to overcome a problem or a need.
[18:02:15] <Tom_itx> i've been preaching that all along
[18:02:27] <Tom_itx> learn the basics first
[18:02:34] <N1njaneer> If you have only had "easy", you don't have much deep learning going on. If you've never had to look under the hood even once at what is going on, the gap between what you know and what you NEED to know to accomplish a certain thing is FAR larger than if you HAD NOT been using the "easy" way all along.
[18:02:50] * Tom_itx hides the 'EASY' button
[18:03:07] <N1njaneer> This creates a 'glass ceiling' effect for many, many things.
[18:04:00] <N1njaneer> That is to say, you don't inherently understand the limitations of what you are doing, and thus when you hit them, it's a hard bump you didn't anticipate, and you have little-to-no recourse on how to go about getting around them.
[18:04:28] <N1njaneer> If you are pushing the limit on things, the wise man understand how much bandwidth and headroom he has to work with.
[18:04:52] <N1njaneer> Anyhow :)
[18:05:50] * Tom_itx hides the soap box too...
[18:05:51] <N1njaneer> The grain of salt that I always offer with any of this -- Find what works best for *you*. If there was one single ultimate simple panacea solution, we'd all be using it right now and on one would ever want for more.
[18:06:27] <Tom_itx> no i need to get off my butt and mill some more blue boxes i suppose
[18:07:03] <N1njaneer> Different people have different needs, different requirements, different skills, and different ways of learning. If Arduino does everything you ever need it to do, then use it. But understand that because it has an Ethernet port on it doesn't mean it can do ANYTHING network-related.
[18:07:22] <Tom_itx> you can't?
[18:07:23] <N1njaneer> that +just because
[18:08:02] <N1njaneer> Tom_itx: Some Arduino-uses would probably believe Google would be better off just filling datacenters with racks and racks of Arduino Mega's with Ethernet sheilds.
[18:08:15] <jeremyabel> lol
[18:08:17] <N1njaneer> I mean, you could buy a lot more of them than rack-mount computers.
[18:08:20] <Tom_itx> they don't?
[18:08:25] <Tom_itx> damn...
[18:09:15] <N1njaneer> Anyhow, I rambled enough.
[18:09:25] <N1njaneer> F_F: Does that answer your question? :D
[18:11:17] <Jartza> :D
[18:11:26] <Jartza> I'd say "pretty much"
[18:12:10] <Jartza> and I disliked arduino really quickly because it didn't feel like really being in control
[18:12:18] <Lambda_Auriga_> I just wish they had done atmel studio as a multiplatform app like microchip did with mplabx
[18:12:36] <Jartza> that's why I used my arduino for one day, then pushed attiny85 to breadboard and started from scratch
[18:12:58] <Lambda_Auriga_> when I started with avr there was no arduino.
[18:13:04] <Jartza> Lambda_Auriga_: I read "multiplayer app"
[18:13:10] <Jartza> maybe it's time to go to sleep :)
[18:13:22] <Jartza> I was thinking about multiplayer ide and got wild ideas
[18:13:30] <Jartza> extremely extreme programming and stuff
[18:13:36] <Lambda_Auriga_> hehe.
[18:13:43] <Lambda_Auriga_> years ago we did just that.
[18:13:49] <Lambda_Auriga_> I had a multiplayer text editor.
[18:13:59] <Lambda_Auriga_> and a bunch of guys editing the same files at the same time.
[18:14:04] <Lambda_Auriga_> didn't work for shit..
[18:14:04] <Jartza> we did that on 90's
[18:14:12] <Lambda_Auriga_> was about 2003 when we did it.
[18:14:25] <Jartza> one unix machine, multiple vt102 terminals, gnu screen and vi :P
[18:14:36] <Jartza> 3 guys hacking the same code
[18:14:44] <Jartza> that wasn't very effective :D
[18:14:45] <Lambda_Auriga_> I did it with a web based multiplayer text editor and multiplayer graphic app.
[18:15:18] <Jartza> although I have to admit, screen -x is still one of my favorite commands :)
[18:15:25] <Lambda_Auriga_> anywhere from 2 to 8 programmers at once...it was an experiment the boss wanted to try.
[18:16:19] <jeremyabel> 8 programmers, 1 machine
[18:16:23] <jeremyabel> coming this summer
[18:17:03] <Jartza> but... nighties all, gotta wake up in 6
[18:17:08] <jeremyabel> night
[18:17:08] <Jartza> seeya!
[18:17:32] <N1njaneer> G'night!
[20:12:55] <sstraw> Am working on a low power monitoring circuit. Have an ATTiny24V set up in a breadboard with a minimalistic program in it, and try as I might, i can't get it to much lower than 2.2mA -- this is using sleep mode (POWER DOWN, with 2 second watchdog). It blips a red led for 10ms every few sleep cycles and goes back to sleep.
[20:14:48] <N1njaneer> Do you have the debugger/ISP attached, and do you have anything else in the circuit that may be drawing current?
[20:14:55] <sstraw> I've had success with the ATTiny85, driving it down with a similar process to just 7uA average. Does the 24V require some other initialization to get it to power down effectively? i disable accessories (timers, ADC, etc), have I/O set as inputs (or outputs set low, seems to be the same),
[20:15:58] <N1njaneer> Yes, as sstraw said you need to check the peripherals on the device to make sure everything is turned off that you don't absolutely need. It's very possible to get them down in to a couple dozen uA or less in deel sleep modes.
[20:16:00] <N1njaneer> +deep
[20:16:06] <sstraw> No debugger. ICSP device is disconnected, and I'm running off of battery. the ONLY pins connected at this time are the power and ground, plus the one I/O providing +V to the led (which then runs to ground), and I have run it with the flash disabled and no LED connected.
[20:17:01] <sstraw> No pull ups/downs, no filter caps, nada.
[20:17:20] <sstraw> Yet it pulls about 2.2mA. Running 5VDC steady.
[20:18:25] <sstraw> (yes, I know lower voltage will reduce power a bit more - I might shoot for 3.3V through an LDO, but at the moment, it's just pure 5VDC, which will provide more oomph to a piezo siren).
[20:19:19] <sstraw> running 8MHz internal oscillator.
[20:19:55] <sstraw> BOD disabled, timing critical settings are done in timing critical order.
[20:21:23] <N1njaneer> Atmel has some handyapp-notes that go over checklists of all the things you need to ensure are set just so in order to get the low-power current consumption down.
[20:21:32] <N1njaneer> handy +app-notes
[20:21:47] <N1njaneer> Might want to double-check against those?
[20:22:03] <sstraw> lemme work on leet here...
[20:22:08] <sstraw> U haz link?
[20:22:11] <sstraw> <g>
[20:22:15] <N1njaneer> No, just search :)
[20:22:21] <N1njaneer> Easy to find.
[20:23:21] <sstraw> Oh, AVR4013 - picopower basics>
[20:23:31] <N1njaneer> There you go :)
[20:23:40] <Tom_itx> shame they took the resource disk offline
[20:40:34] <Sandcat> I'm trying to upload a program to an atmega328 with Atmel Studio, using a USBtinyISP. But I get the error message: "avrdude: Error: Could not find USBtiny device (0x1781/0xc9f)". Furthermore, whenever I plug the USBtinyISP in, windows tells me "USB device not recognized". I have tried downloading the appropriate 64 bit windows 7 drivers from
https://learn.adafruit.com/usbtinyisp/download and...
[20:40:36] <Sandcat> ...installing them, but the problem persists. I am googling, but if anyone has any suggestions as how to proceed, please let me know.
[20:42:10] <sstraw> Somewhere in windows device manager, you should be able to get the USB device identifiers actually used by the detected device (or, just plug it into a Linux computer and type 'lsusb').
[20:42:36] <sstraw> Have you used the programmer before? Is is possible it wasn't flashed?
[20:42:46] <sstraw> (the programmer itself has code on it)
[20:43:02] <Sandcat> No, this is the first time I've attempted to use it.
[20:44:41] <sstraw> Bugger that.
[20:45:34] <Sandcat> I'm not sure how I would verify that it has been flashed or not.
[20:45:48] <N1njaneer> Call AdaFruit.
[20:46:04] <N1njaneer> I wish more people would just buy the Atmel programmers. :(
[20:46:15] <sstraw> I bought several USBasp devices off of AliExpress. sub US$6 apiece, delivered.
[20:47:44] <sstraw> has an ATMEGA8U onboard, crystal, self-healing fuse, a couple of LEDs and other discretes, and a circa 18" ribbon cable with 2x3 headers.
[20:48:36] <N1njaneer> Sandcat: See what VID/PID it is enumerating to windows as. It sounds like it's not associating them correctly.
[20:48:58] <Sandcat> I was asked to make a modification to this oneTesla driver code for singing tesla coils, and while I've made modifications successfully before, I was doing it on someone else's laptop and they already had a programmer set up. I can modify the code, but I can't figure out how to get the code to the microcontroller :<
[20:49:01] <N1njaneer> Alternatively try a different USB port, ideally one directly on your computer.
[20:49:13] <Sandcat> N1njaneer: Trying those things.
[20:49:21] <N1njaneer> Some of the SparkFun and Adafruit stuff is not... well implemented.
[20:49:30] <sstraw> The firmware for USBasp devices (assuming yours is compatible) can be found at:
http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/
[20:49:51] <sstraw> No idea how well that'll work if the machine doesn't even recognize the device.
[20:50:05] <N1njaneer> I have some Arduino stuff here I needed to handle for a client. The bloody programmer will not work correctly if connected through the hub on my Dell monitor. Go figure.
[20:50:41] <N1njaneer> It will enumerate and identify just fine, but won't actually upload code. That was quite a problem to figure out what was wrong.
[20:51:43] <sstraw> I haven't done THIS, but it's useful to note:
http://www.rogerclark.net/?p=702
[20:51:57] <sstraw> programming the programmer using it's own connector.
[20:53:20] <Sandcat> I tried swapping usb ports, I did not get any messages from windows about the device not being recognized this time. However, the upload failed with the same error message as before.
[20:53:53] <Sandcat> I'm having trouble actually finding the device in the windows device manager, so I don't know the VID/PID yet
[20:57:14] <Sandcat> oh, it wasn't detecting it all on that port, I moved it back to the previous port, got the 'device not recognized' message, and it showed up in the device manager under "Unknown Device" I looked through all the information in the properties, but did not see the VID or PID information. Am I looking in the wrong place?
[21:00:15] <Sandcat> I've tried every port on my laptop now, the best I can get is unknown device.
[21:00:23] <N1njaneer> If you are getting an Unknown Device, it sounds like it may not be enumerating properly to the PC, so thus not even getting to the point where drivers would be able to load since there's no VID/PID. Only a guess, though.
[21:00:56] <N1njaneer> If it successfully loaded, Windows would pop up the screen where it starts searching for a device driver to match it to, etc
[21:01:03] <Sandcat> would that be indicative of an unflashed programmer?
[21:01:07] <N1njaneer> Try a different USB cable, or a different machine.
[21:01:54] <N1njaneer> Possibly, though if it's an actual USB-equipped Atmel chip they are factory-shipped with a bootloader that would show up.
[21:02:12] <N1njaneer> If they are doing bit-bang USB (ecch!) then that wouldn't be the case.
[21:02:31] <N1njaneer> Worst case I would call AdaFruit tomorrow and ask, or check their forums. You might just have a bad board.
[21:02:38] <Sandcat> I did not purchase the programmer myself, I was asked to make this stuff work by a friend.
[21:02:49] <N1njaneer> You could still call AdaFruit
[21:03:00] <sstraw> from memory: control panel > system > device manager (or whatever to get there since MS was fond of messing with things)
[21:03:08] <N1njaneer> Are you sure it didn't get zapped by a tesla coil? :)
[21:03:20] <Sandcat> it hasn't been near one yet
[21:03:41] * Sandcat ponders
[21:03:43] <sstraw> Go into USB, find unknown device and open it. One of the tabs should be "details" The Vid (vendor id) and Pid (product id) should be in there.
[21:04:18] <sstraw> This would at least allow you to see what your computer THINKS it is.
[21:04:23] <Sandcat> I've been through there already, but I'll double check
[21:06:14] <Sandcat> Oh, I checked my usb mouse, and it shows the VID and PID under the 'Hardware ID' catagory. for the programmer all it shows under Hardware ID is "USB\UNKNOWN"
[21:06:47] <N1njaneer> The computer can also see something is "there" because of the biasing resistors in the device that present to the USB port, but it sounds like enumeration isn't taking place.
[21:06:51] <sstraw> Well, try another machine, check the contacts, etc.
[21:07:01] <N1njaneer> If you've tried different ports, a different cable, and a different machine, it sounds like the programmer isn't working.
[21:07:11] <N1njaneer> Unless the programmer is NOT USB powered.
[21:07:47] <N1njaneer> Most programmers are USB-powered, though it's possible to design it such that it needs an external source of +5V, etc. I only use the Atmel ones so I can't better comment.
[21:10:54] <Sandcat> I'm borrowing a laptop to try that, but I've only got the one cable available.
[21:11:28] <sstraw> My device has VID of 16C0 and PID of 05DC
[21:11:51] <sstraw> Do you have an arduino?
[21:12:40] <Sandcat> not with me
[21:12:50] <Sandcat> I'm in a hotel 2 states away from home
[21:12:53] <Sandcat> will be for the week
[21:12:58] <sstraw> I fabbed my first ICSP programmer using perfboard, some header pins, a cap and resistor, some 2x3 headers (only because I wanted one ICSP out, and different device pinouts), and a ZIF socket, but you can get by with much less.
[21:13:17] <Sandcat> :< his laptop can see the VID and PID
[21:13:27] <Sandcat> but mine can't?
[21:13:57] <sstraw> other devices in those ports work? How about in a powered USB hub?
[21:14:12] <Sandcat> yeah, my usb mouse works in those ports
[21:14:13] <sstraw> Perhaps your laptop can't juice the USB properly.
[21:14:18] <Sandcat> I don't have a hub
[21:14:46] <sstraw> hotel... conceierge?
[21:14:54] <sstraw> office supply store?
[21:15:23] <sstraw> if the hotel is the sort of place that ever deals with business conferences, sweet talking someone might get you a loaner hub.
[21:15:59] <sstraw> anyway, supper is out, time to go.
[21:16:06] <Sandcat> thanks for the help
[21:16:30] <sstraw> Goog luck with it.
[21:18:43] <Sandcat> okay, now it randomly is recognized by MY laptop, I've got the VID and PID values, but it still claims the drivers are not installed.
[21:45:26] <strukturalna> has anyone made a multi-mcu, avr computer?
[21:45:38] <Sandcat> I've got the USBtinyISP drivers working now, but I'm just getting a "avrdude: initialization failed, rc=-1" error now.
[21:45:51] <strukturalna> ah ok
[21:46:08] <strukturalna> rc=-1 means something but I forget
[21:48:29] <Sandcat> apparently its a generic 'could not establish communications' type error
[21:49:32] <strukturalna> ah ok
[21:49:42] <strukturalna> that means it has autism
[21:51:57] <Sandcat> On each failed attempt I get a single flash from the red status led
[21:52:25] <strukturalna> which programmer are you using?
[21:52:35] <Sandcat> Does that confirm that my programmer is indeed flashed, or is it still a possibility I've got a blank? USBtinyISP
[22:06:50] <sstraw-fsck> I'd expect the device to comm and drive the LED only if there's code on it. Symptom seems like a low-drive USB though.
[22:07:09] <sstraw-fsck> (which is why I suggested an externally powered USB hub).
[22:08:47] <sstraw-fsck> I need to fab some carriers this weekend for ATTiny84 and 85 uCs with ICSP so I can plug them into breadboard and still do ICSP.
[22:09:22] <sstraw-fsck> I have a few for ATTiny24V uCs, and put ICSP on all my projects, but the breadboard experimentation phase is where you don't want to fuss with dangly wires.
[22:13:07] <sstraw-fsck> Was on my way to a nearby makerspace with a laser cutter this weekend when I had some transmission troubles. Was looking forward to cutting some acrylic enclosures.
[22:13:48] <sstraw-fsck> If you've priced plastic project boxes lately, wow.
[22:14:22] <sstraw-fsck> I can get the raw material and fab out a project box that's JUST RIGHT for a given project for a fraction of the cost of a moulded one.
[22:17:32] <sstraw-fsck> Tried more of the stuff from the Atmel appnote, no improvement in current draw. I'm guessing the 24V can't effectively enter low power mode?
[22:17:44] <sstraw-fsck> Tried on two of the uCs.
[22:18:15] <sstraw-fsck> Perhaps when/if I have time tomorrow evening. I
[22:18:49] <sstraw-fsck> I'll look at making an ICSP header for a breadboard and jam a DIP package 85 in there and check it's current draw with the same sketch.
[22:20:25] <sstraw-fsck> I guess I could solder the leads for the ICSP to the underside of a CPU socket, and have a 3-6 inch lead out to the 2x3 header. Should be easy enough to cobble up to test.
[22:22:20] <sstraw-fsck> Waiting for someone at the office to finish doing an inventory of test gear the company is going to put up for sealed bid (individual items, not one big lot).
[22:22:32] <sstraw-fsck> Hope to pick up a 500MHz 4 ch Tek.
[22:23:01] <sstraw-fsck> older "Digital Phosphor" model DSO.
[22:24:10] <sstraw-fsck> oo.
[22:32:16] <jeremyabel> sstraw-fsck: bid online?