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[02:51:32] <Jartza> yah, this oled seems to be a bit tricky
[02:52:05] <Jartza> some commands are like "standard" (hd47780), then there are several multibyte extended oled-commands
[03:27:37] <FoxGT> For some reason my attiny2313 doesn't appear to want to function correctly. The delay gets finicky at 500ms & lower. Anything below 200ms & it won't delay at all.
[03:28:11] <FoxGT> Any ideas?
[03:28:30] <twnqx> did you define the correct F_CPU?
[03:28:58] <FoxGT> #define F_CPU 1000000L
[03:29:11] <twnqx> at it really only runs at 1MHz?
[03:29:34] <twnqx> also, isn't there some limit to the maximum value you can drop into _delay_ms
[03:30:24] <twnqx> try to run an outer loop of 500x _delay_ms(1)
[03:30:27] <FoxGT> I haven't messed with the fuses. It shows that it's set at 8MHZ & the divide by 8 is checked.
[03:31:32] <FoxGT> This is just in a while(1) loop. I went down to that when I found that it had a delay issue.
[03:31:52] <jacekowski> FoxGT: have you got -O2 enabled?
[03:33:07] <FoxGT> -O2? This is in studio.
[03:33:42] <FoxGT> Forgive me, I'm somewhat new to this. This is the first time I've messed with a 2313. I've done most of my learning on the 168 & have never messed with any fuse bits.
[03:33:46] <jhn> Directly from TFM: In order for these functions to work as intended, compiler optimizations must be enabled, and the delay time must be an expression that is a known constant at compile-time. If these requirements are not met, the resulting delay will be much longer (and basically unpredictable), and applications that otherwise do not use floating-point calculations will experience severe code bloat by the floating-point library routines linked into th
[03:33:47] <jhn> application.
[03:36:09] <FoxGT> I didn't disable them. Let me see if I can't figure something out. If I disconnect this one & put the 168 back in/change it back to atmega168, it works completely fine, even the same code.
[03:42:22] <FoxGT> jhn, it says -O1
[03:42:30] <FoxGT> jacekowski*
[03:43:10] <FoxGT> should I set it higher?
[03:43:45] <jacekowski> FoxGT: delay functions require optimisations to be enabled to function correctly
[03:44:00] <jacekowski> i'm not 100% sure if it was -O2 that was required or O1 was fine
[03:44:16] <jhn> Read the delay section in the avrlibc and build a tstprogram with a definite number of iterations. Maybe blink a LED. That should youz get into target.
[03:45:16] <jacekowski> In order for these functions to work as intended, compiler optimizations must be enabled, and the delay time must be an expression that is a known constant at compile-time.
[03:45:24] <jacekowski> If these requirements are not met, the resulting delay will be much longer (and basically unpredictable),
[03:45:30] <FoxGT> I tried -O2 & -O3. With both of those, it blinks twice then goes solid.
[03:45:45] <jacekowski> hmm, lack of optimisations shouldn't shorten the delay
[03:45:59] <jacekowski> FoxGT: can you upload the binary somewhere
[03:46:07] <jacekowski> or even better, disassembly of it
[03:46:54] <jhn> TFM does not state the required level of optimization. :-(
[03:47:26] <jacekowski> easiest way to confirm would be to look at asm generated by the compiler
[03:49:47] <twnqx> or pastebin source
[03:49:54] <twnqx> blinking twice sounds weird
[03:50:13] <FoxGT> is that the .elf?
[03:50:31] <FoxGT> I'm way new to this. I've never had any issues like this.
[03:50:46] <FoxGT> I just figured this uc was junk.
[03:50:53] <twnqx> doubt it
[03:52:04] <jacekowski> FoxGT: or hex
[03:52:12] <jacekowski> FoxGT: hex will be easier to pastebin
[03:52:14] <twnqx> i'd take the elf
[03:52:21] <twnqx> objdump -d can disassemble it directly
[03:52:44] <FoxGT> http://i.imgur.com/QqK7BvP.jpg
[03:52:47] <jacekowski> FoxGT: show us the source as well
[03:52:47] <FoxGT> that's what I have.
[03:53:06] <jacekowski> FoxGT: i'll have the .hex
[03:53:22] <jacekowski> .elf is pretty much .eep + .hex + some extra info
[03:53:26] <jhn> foxgt, a newbie should always consider the error is on his side.
[03:54:07] <jacekowski> i've have avr restarting randomly, but it would not restart when running under jtag debugger
[03:54:22] <jacekowski> supply was always from jtag
[03:54:59] <jacekowski> in the end i've connected it to proper power supply and problem disappeared
[03:55:29] <FoxGT> is there anywhere to upload the .hex?
[03:55:43] <jacekowski> FoxGT: if you open .hex in notepad you can just paste the content to pastebin
[03:55:47] <twnqx> mega? mediafire? any other filesharing site?
[03:57:07] <FoxGT> http://pastebin.com/3abrZ5Lh
[03:57:52] <jacekowski> FoxGT: show us your source as well
[03:58:36] <FoxGT> http://pastebin.com/zSADZ3nk
[03:59:32] <FoxGT> I tried to take out anything unnecessary, just to see if the delay would work correctly.
[04:00:09] <jhn> Which version of avrlibc?
[04:02:43] <jacekowski> there is no way this can crash
[04:02:52] <jacekowski> there is nothing to jump out of the main loop
[04:04:31] <twnqx> If the avr-gcc toolchain has __builtin_avr_delay_cycles(unsigned long)
[04:04:31] <twnqx> support, maximal possible delay is 4294967.295 ms/ F_CPU in MHz. For
[04:04:31] <twnqx> values greater than the maximal possible delay, overflows results in
[04:04:31] <twnqx> no delay i.e., 0ms.
[04:04:37] <twnqx> like i said
[04:04:47] <twnqx> make a look around the _delay_ms
[04:04:57] <twnqx> for (i=0; i<200; i++) _delay_ms(1)
[04:05:11] <twnqx> and check if it works
[04:06:48] <jhn> What are the results when you compile deliberately with -O0 -O1 -O2?
[04:09:15] <jhn> F_CPU in MHz is 1 in this case, so a delay of 200 msec _should_ work.
[04:09:25] <jhn> Again: What avrlibc is in use?
[04:21:35] <FoxGT> The look around didn't fare any better.
[04:22:52] <FoxGT> Sorry I'm so slow at this guys. I've been trying to figure out what the lib version is without being completely noobish.
[04:23:45] <FoxGT> is the version the 20100110 number?
[04:24:38] <FoxGT> oh
[04:24:40] <FoxGT> 1.6.7
[04:24:47] <jhn> avr/version.h
[04:25:55] <FoxGT> Yeah, 1.6.7.
[04:27:16] <FoxGT> If I try to make it with -O0, it says the delay won't work.
[04:27:40] <jhn> Good hint! then proceed with o1 and o2.
[04:27:59] <jhn> And check if you can install avrlibc 1.8.0
[04:28:09] <FoxGT> o1, o2, o3, & os all do the same thing.
[04:29:26] <FoxGT> led blinks on, off, on at 200ms delay; random delay if it's set at 500ms.
[04:30:12] <twnqx> so
[04:30:21] <twnqx> please do as i told you multiple times already
[04:31:36] <FoxGT> I tried that, twnqx. It did the same thing.
[04:31:46] <twnqx> Oo
[04:31:51] <twnqx> that is unusual
[04:32:07] <twnqx> how many bypass capacitors does your design have?
[04:32:22] <FoxGT> Just one.
[04:33:01] <FoxGT> It's just using ddrd to blink an led. I went down to the bare minimum to see if this thing was crap.
[04:33:15] <FoxGT> one pull up on the reset & one cap.
[04:33:55] <Valen> cap all the things!
[04:34:17] <twnqx> well... this should do...
[04:35:27] <FoxGT> How about that...
[04:36:10] <jhn> With an avrlibc that old (although the delay error showed only in avrlibc 1.7.0) maybe an update of the whole toolchain should be considered.
[04:36:18] <FoxGT> My cap between vcc & gnd wasn't pushed in all the way on one leg. It was far enough in the board to look like it was in.
[04:36:30] <FoxGT> I kind of feel like a dumbass now.
[04:37:29] <twnqx> only if it works now :P
[04:37:48] <FoxGT> It's working perfectly now.
[04:37:51] <twnqx> lol
[04:37:54] <twnqx> sorry :)
[04:38:25] <FoxGT> Shit. Guys, I'm so sorry for wasting your time. I should have pulled everything out & put it back in before asking.
[04:38:50] <jhn> Well. you can always compensate with a beer. Here is my address…. :-)
[04:42:17] <FoxGT> Lol. Worth the beer! I cannot even begin to tell you how dumb I feel from that.
[04:43:14] <FoxGT> Maybe I should solder the cap into my adaptor breadboard between the vcc & ground to prevent this in the future.
[04:44:54] <jhn> Nonetheless you learned something. Of course it was not the 2313.
[04:47:30] <FoxGT> Touche. Good call on that one.
[04:52:12] <jhn> The problem is many-fold, in order of appearance: 1. Manuals don’t get read. 2. Diferent experience/understanding/assumption levels by the writer/reader. 3. Documentation error 4. Misc errors lik in this case 5. Part error not covered by errata.
[04:53:25] <jhn> 3, 4, and 5 probabilities are offset by large amounts.
[04:54:33] <FoxGT> Well. I did think that I got a batch of crap 2313s to be honest.
[04:54:52] <FoxGT> & I just realized another reason I thought that. They sent me two different 2313's when they were supposed to be the same.
[04:55:04] <FoxGT> One wouldn't read at all, the other one had delay issues.
[04:55:51] <FoxGT> I just noticed that the numbers are 2313V-10PU & 2313A-PU
[04:56:01] <jhn> Coincidence has often sent me in the wrong direction, true.
[04:58:28] <FoxGT> Well the V won't work, at least not with these settings, but the A will.
[04:59:06] <FoxGT> I hope I didn't mess anything up on the v by trying to program it as an a...
[04:59:40] <twnqx> isn't the V just the lower voltage version?
[04:59:45] <twnqx> or something like that
[05:00:51] <FoxGT> iirc, it had a slightly lower min voltage & lower clock speed?
[05:01:08] <FoxGT> don't quote me on the clock speed thing. I just remember the lower min voltage.
[05:02:28] <FoxGT> ATtiny2313V: 0 4 MHz @ 1.8-5.5V, 0 10 MHz @ 2.7 5.5V
[05:02:28] <FoxGT> ATtiny2313: 0 10 MHz @ 2.7-5.5V, 0 20 MHz @ 4.5 5.5V
[05:03:46] <twnqx> so it might have just not read because it has a different ID
[05:04:40] <FoxGT> Yeah, it won't read. I just swapped the A out, put the V in & got the "unable to enter programming mode" error
[05:06:10] <FoxGT> Er...? One of the V's will read and work perfectly, the other won't.
[05:06:18] <FoxGT> This is odd.
[05:06:33] <twnqx> you killed it :(
[05:06:37] <twnqx> murderer :(
[05:08:34] <FoxGT> Lol. It came pre-murdered.
[05:10:51] <FoxGT> I am curious about this A that I got though.... I didn't order it.
[05:11:44] <jhn> It is an add on for the pre-murdered V… :-)
[05:12:45] <twnqx> argh
[05:12:46] <FoxGT> I ordered 3 2313V's I got: (1) Murdered 2313V, (1) Working 2313V, & (1) Working 2313A
[05:12:54] <twnqx> here go my hopes of a simple solution :(
[05:13:47] <jhn> Great supplier you have…
[05:13:58] <FoxGT> No lie!
[05:17:01] <FoxGT> I think I got ripped off...
[05:17:38] <twnqx> at least you got (1) chip of thse that you wanted.
[05:19:54] <FoxGT> True. Guess I'll just have to file this dealer under asshole.
[05:21:17] <jhn> I would try to look at it from the angle “you ordered a single version and got a variety at no extra cost” How much better can it get?! :-)
[05:21:57] <FoxGT> True. I got two different versions of the 2313 & a 2313 paperweight.
[05:22:37] <FoxGT> They could have at least ran a rope around it & called it a complimentary necklace.
[05:23:07] <jhn> maybe the defective 2313 only needs closer inspection or a HV programming. Nonetheless I consider shipping used chips questionable at least.
[05:23:31] <jhn> But honestly, this is getting very OT now…
[05:35:14] <jacekowski> FoxGT: where did you get it from?
[05:35:37] <jacekowski> FoxGT: generally, places to go to are, farnell/element14, digikey, RS
[05:36:26] <FoxGT> This is a china special!
[05:36:41] <FoxGT> with the fake, authentic Atmel logo.
[05:37:06] <jacekowski> it might be just recycled chip
[05:37:09] <jacekowski> they do that a lot
[05:37:22] <jacekowski> they even recycle smd resistors
[05:37:33] <jacekowski> desolder them, clean up and sell again
[05:38:44] <FoxGT> Sounds about right.
[05:39:06] <FoxGT> So why wouldn't it recognize it?
[05:40:03] <jacekowski> faulty
[05:40:08] <jacekowski> or something
[05:40:30] <FoxGT> Oh my God, I need to go to bed. I keep putting the wrong ports in the code & wondering why nothing works when I push my buttons.
[05:56:59] <Roklobsta> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4PchBS-mngE#t=1412
[05:57:10] <Roklobsta> sdr-radio addons - fail.
[06:01:40] <Roklobsta> jeebus wrong channel sorry
[06:02:13] <Roklobsta> <del><del><del>
[06:02:31] <malinus> Roklobsta, just ctrl-l , now it's all gone ;)
[06:02:49] <malinus> enjoy this lifehack
[06:03:06] <malinus> (remember to like and subscribe)
[07:46:52] <Fleck> and retweet malinus :D
[08:39:01] <bitd> Ok, so any of you guys know how much the MPU6050 would be of without calibration?
[08:41:32] <CoolBear> Datasheet would be the first place to look.
[08:42:36] <malinus> well, you can also wait for someone with the MPU6050 datasheet memorized to come here.
[08:44:03] <bitd> CoolBear, malinus you guys are right.
[08:44:13] <bitd> The thing is, I did check it before, could not find it.
[08:44:22] <bitd> Now I look again and I found it.
[08:44:43] <CoolBear> Sweet :)
[08:45:29] <bitd> Oef, 10 degrees typical.
[08:45:31] <bitd> Yayks.
[08:45:40] <malinus> wow
[08:45:57] <malinus> bitd, is the MPU6050 SPI?
[08:46:25] <bitd> Yes, it is.
[08:46:30] <malinus> neat
[08:46:45] <malinus> bitd, what are you making?
[08:47:06] <bitd> unit to measure human movements.
[08:48:22] <malinus> one to have in your pocket?
[08:49:25] <bitd> Eh no, sorry, I want to measure movements at the center of gravity.
[08:49:45] <bitd> School thing, fall detection crap >.>
[08:49:51] <malinus> oh
[08:50:06] <malinus> it sounds like a fun projects though
[08:50:23] <bitd> It would be, if it wasnt doomed from the get go <.<
[08:50:40] <bitd> Lots of biiig companies have tried, lots have failed.
[08:51:25] <bitd> Problem is that normal daily activities sometimes look like a fall incident in terms of accelerometer data.
[08:52:04] <bitd> So I was wondering about the calibration on the MPU6050, but damn thats bad.
[08:52:12] <bitd> 3% is kind of a big deal.
[09:47:37] <Jartza> oh.. for room temp measurements, is the 1-wire 1802 and derivatives still the way to go?
[09:50:37] <woodyj21> Jartza: I'm using 4 DS18B20's on an UNO (atmega328), using one-wire protocol. works fine
[09:56:46] <Jartza> yeah, I've used ds18b20's for ages
[09:57:04] <Jartza> I was just wondering, is that still a good choice or has someone invented something better :)
[09:57:41] <Jartza> I guess I still have few of SOIC-8 versions somewhere
[09:58:26] <Jartza> although I never quite understood why it's soic-8 as it has 5 N.C. pins
[12:55:56] <RikusW> Anyone feeling bored ? -->
http://gameaboutsquares.com/
[13:00:26] <woodyj21> RikusW: been a pretty quiet day here too
[13:11:30] <woodyj21> RikusW: pretty neat!
[13:11:45] * RikusW is at level 19 now
[13:11:54] <RikusW> its getting harder....
[13:12:46] <Thrashbarg> this can be a real timewaster ...
[13:14:05] <RikusW> indeed
[13:16:31] <N1njaneer> Move along people! Go make AVR magics happen! :D
[13:17:44] * RikusW moves a cube along :-P
[13:18:43] <antto> hao do i enable dis avr magics?
[13:19:03] <antto> pls i need to now.
[13:20:42] <N1njaneer> avr.magic(ENABLE);
[13:21:01] <antto> tanks! ;P~
[13:21:04] <RikusW> this is not ARDUINO !!
[13:21:13] <Thrashbarg> heh
[13:21:23] <N1njaneer> RikusW: I never said it was!
[13:21:32] <N1njaneer> But I use C++ on AVR all the time :)
[13:21:50] <antto> hao u du it? ;P~
[13:21:50] <RikusW> 30V -> Vcc to enable magic smoke :-P
[13:22:11] * antto grabs 300V "adapter" ..
[13:22:22] <Thrashbarg> magic dynamite
[13:23:21] * RikusW prefers peroxy acetone
[13:23:54] <RikusW> its rather easy to make
[13:24:13] <RikusW> ppp
[13:24:25] <RikusW> ^Z
[13:25:09] <Fleck> this game reminds me of an old DOS game, let me try to find name for that game
[13:42:54] <Fleck> yeah, found it:
http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/753/Stone+Age.html
[13:48:41] <N1njaneer> Abandonia sounds like a place in ancient Europe :D
[13:49:24] <N1njaneer> Like... Right next to Caledonia (today northern Scotland)
[13:54:08] <twnqx> RikusW: one of my avrs has a voltage regulator in front that laughs at 30V :P
[13:54:44] <N1njaneer> twnqx: A DC/DC I hope? :D
[13:54:50] <twnqx> yeah
[13:55:14] <twnqx> something like 3V-42V => 5V
[13:55:17] <N1njaneer> Who's brand if you don't mind me asking. I highly prefer CUI here based on some horrid experiences with Recom.
[13:55:33] <twnqx> homebrew
[13:55:44] <N1njaneer> Who's chipset?
[13:57:24] <twnqx> hm
[13:57:28] <twnqx> i though TI LM3481
[13:57:33] <twnqx> but it has an internal switch
[13:58:00] <N1njaneer> So it's buck/boost arrangement? How much current can you pull out of it?
[13:58:00] <twnqx> hm
[13:58:03] <twnqx> sepic
[14:01:26] <twnqx> LM5001
[14:01:34] <twnqx> http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/174949/at90can-v1.1.pdf
[14:02:54] <twnqx> 1A :P
[14:03:20] <twnqx> though i am not sure if the coil and capacitors are sufficient for 1A, would have to look up my calculations
[14:03:27] <N1njaneer> Speaking of SMPS, has anyone seen beaky lately, or did his latest AVR adventure end up killing him? :D
[14:03:56] <twnqx> lol
[14:05:06] <twnqx> Ultra-Wide Input Voltage Range from
[14:05:06] <twnqx> 3.1 V to 75 V
[14:05:07] <twnqx> :>
[14:05:26] <twnqx> but i'd need higher voltage capacitors, and the mosfets up front probably wouldn't like it either
[14:16:31] <N1njaneer> Gotta use some of the beefier silicon-carbide MOSFETs. Those things are insane.
[14:16:53] <twnqx> for 75V and 1 few mA (since 5W out?)
[14:17:10] <twnqx> i wanted to play with those for an inverter though
[14:17:23] <twnqx> a few*
[14:33:13] <Jartza> d'oh
[14:33:30] <Jartza> what would be the quickest place to order around 100 pcbs?
[14:33:41] <Jartza> around 5*10 cm
[14:33:59] <Tom_itx> how quick?
[14:34:10] <Jartza> preferably less than 4 weeks
[14:34:33] <Tom_itx> probably hackvana
[14:34:37] <Jartza> ok
[14:34:48] <Tom_itx> just tell him to hurry up
[14:34:50] <Tom_itx> :)
[14:34:59] <N1njaneer> Jartza: How much do you want to pay, and what are the specs? I've run 4-layer 20" x 20" panels SINGLE DAY before. That wasn't cheap. :)
[14:35:16] <Tom_itx> no those wouldn't be cheap
[14:35:34] <Tom_itx> and generally aren't production orders
[14:35:39] <Tom_itx> rather prototype
[14:35:53] <N1njaneer> Jartza: I would try www.pcbuniverse.com -- online quoting matrix, just punch in your specs. They are fabbed in China or Taiwan, so they'd just ship directly to you.
[14:36:42] <N1njaneer> Tom_itx: This was a save-face with the customer for prototypes after the original board house could not meet specs they advertised, since we were needing to hold specs on 8mil vias within a few mils over 20"+ distance
[14:37:14] <Jartza> N1njaneer: well, I don't need single day delivery, 4 weeks is fine :) and the pcb will be quite simple 2 layer board
[14:37:45] <Jartza> nothing fancy needed, they are prototypes anyway
[14:37:50] <Tom_itx> Jartza stop being so damn difficult...
[14:38:20] <Tom_itx> 100 boards 6 mil traces 6 layer TOMORROW!!!
[14:38:27] <Jartza> :)
[14:38:33] <Jartza> no, today!
[14:38:54] <Jartza> they still have 100 minutes left, if we count in finnish time :)
[14:39:06] <woodyj21> there's also these guys
http://dirtypcbs.com/
[14:39:36] <N1njaneer> Jartza: If you don't need full LPI and silk, go to www.barebonespcb.com -- they are a single-day turn only and extremely good quality, price based on quantity and surface area.
[14:39:58] <N1njaneer> I use them for doing simple prototypes all the time if I don't just mill the PCBs in house :)
[14:41:09] <N1njaneer> PCBUniverse has some fantastic prototype specials listed on their front page as well. Also 33each.com from Advanced, who also runs the BareBones site. Those will both be about a week turn for full-spec 2 layer boards.
[14:41:29] <Jartza> no need for silk
[14:41:39] <N1njaneer> $33 USD each for full LPI/silk boards up to like 150sq/in, minimum 4, delivered in 5 working days.
[14:41:48] <Jartza> so simple design that the components almost fall into their places when you throw them to the board :)
[14:42:12] <N1njaneer> Then I'd say BareBonesPCB or 33each.com
[14:42:28] <kastein> 33each, 66each, oshpark, barebones, and pcb-pool are by far the favorites of me and my friends.
[14:43:28] <kastein> i use pcb-pool exclusively for work. best deal ever if you need goldplate, 4 layer, tighter lines than 33ea/66ea do, and/or solder stencils
[14:43:57] <N1njaneer> kastein: They do smaller than 6/6 on that offer?
[14:45:13] <N1njaneer> PCBUniverse will do down to 5/5 on their 2-8 layer prototype specials and it's only a 5-10 day lead-time.
[14:46:51] <kastein> N1njaneer: line/space? iirc thats what they do. last time i did a 33ea order it was like 15/12 or something
[14:48:19] <N1njaneer> 33ea will do down to 6/6, maybe 8+ years ago they were 8/8, but it's always been small
[14:48:38] <N1njaneer> Been using Advanced for about 13 years now. Pretty good stuff.
[14:49:45] <Jartza> hmm
[14:49:54] <Jartza> dirtypcb seems cheap :o
[14:50:48] <N1njaneer> I place our higher-volume orders through PCBUniverse, though. Have easily ordered 10,000+ boards through PCBUniverse with no issues, or at least no issues they didn't remedy immediately or were more annoyance than showstoppers.
[14:52:04] <N1njaneer> Very good quality for the money, and everything goes through E-test without any extra costs.
[14:57:07] <aandrew> N1njaneer: I dont' even bother with board houses which don't do free electrical test. things are so competitive right now that it just isn't worth it, and I'd say a good 95% of my baords are 4 layer
[14:57:20] <aandrew> with probably 4.5% 2 layer and the other 0.5% more
[14:57:54] <aandrew> hackvana's boards get nothing but praise from the assembly house I work with (apparently there are some REALLY shitty boards out there) but they always compliment his registration and especially his HASL
[14:58:11] <N1njaneer> aandrew: Advanced Circuits does not, and they're the fifth largest in the US
[14:58:29] <aandrew> I just placed an order through pentalogix and they seemed decent. very competitive price
[14:58:39] <aandrew> N1njaneer: big doesn't mean good :-)
[14:58:50] <N1njaneer> aandrew: We're sensitive to all of that since we run the SMT line here right in house :)
[14:58:54] <aandrew> I've also had good luck with sunstone but they are considerably pricier
[14:59:02] <N1njaneer> aandrew: Yep, which is why I only use them for certain things.
[14:59:09] <N1njaneer> Sunstone is definately pricey.
[14:59:11] <aandrew> N1njaneer: here too, my office is within the assembly house :-)
[14:59:51] <aandrew> I used to love apcircuits but their pricing model needs a real refresher. they're still good for quick turn 2 layer, but they farm out any 4l anyway. I live in canada so it's nice to be able to get boards back quickly from them without worrying about customs/duty hassles
[15:00:24] <aandrew> I had a bunch of boards made in Cambridge (city right next to where I live) and htey were decent too. first orders are usually good though
[15:01:04] <N1njaneer> Cool :)
[15:05:00] <Jartza> okay
[15:05:09] <Jartza> then I have a bit harder question :)
[15:05:31] <Jartza> does anybody have any idea where could I order prototype cases for devices? :)
[15:05:38] <Jartza> again around 100-200 pieces
[15:05:59] <N1njaneer> www.protocase.com :)
[15:07:08] <Jartza> "in your choice of steel, aluminum, stainless, galvanized or copper"
[15:07:17] <Jartza> ok, maybe I should've specified that I want plastic :D
[15:11:41] <N1njaneer> Then probably not unless you are machining them yourself.
[15:11:57] <N1njaneer> There are some nice blanks out there off-the-shelf, but enclosures are tricky.
[15:12:11] <N1njaneer> And unless you are going to do volume, cost is going to be higher.
[15:15:29] <hetii> Hi
[15:16:15] <hetii> Is it possible in V-usb that he will introduce as two usb devices in system (different vid/pid)
[15:16:19] <hetii> ?
[15:17:47] <aandrew> Jartza: try polycase
[15:18:38] <aandrew> http://www.polycase.com/
[15:19:54] <Jartza> hmmh, have to look at that
[15:28:45] <Tom_itx> Jartza prototype cases.. i used hammondmfg.com
[15:28:50] <Tom_itx> sold thru the normal channels
[15:29:01] <Tom_itx> they sample
[15:29:35] <Tom_itx> i did machine them myself
[15:30:27] <Tom_itx> polycase is another but i've not used them
[15:30:50] <Tom_itx> hammond will cut your cases if you want for additional fee
[15:32:47] <Tom_itx> or i will... for an additional fee :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CEqokrtFI4&feature=youtu.be
[15:33:49] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTinyMkII_Blue.jpg
[15:33:50] <Tom_itx> end result
[15:35:53] <N1njaneer> That's exactly why I just bought a CNC :)
[15:41:48] <Tom_itx> is kinda handy
[15:48:30] <RikusW> try /join #hackvana irc beats emailing :)
[16:13:40] * RikusW played way too much -> http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/954/Montezumas+Revenge.html
[21:09:58] <clever> anybody?, ive tried setting my avr to an external crystal and now its gone wonky
[21:10:09] <clever> it wont respond properly to the device signature half the time
[21:24:41] <evil_dan2wik> clever, do you have an external crystal?
[21:24:45] <clever> evil_dan2wik: yep
[21:25:00] <evil_dan2wik> And you programmer in the frequency too?
[21:25:08] <clever> its connected, and the scope confirms that the crystal is oscilating at 20mhz
[21:25:24] <clever> i set the fuse calc to full swing crystal
[21:25:40] <clever> http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc/ mega328p, c6 df ff
[21:26:04] <Tom_itx> what freq crystal?
[21:26:10] <Tom_itx> nm
[21:26:25] <Tom_itx> what programmer?
[21:26:31] <clever> ponyserial
[21:26:34] <Tom_itx> k
[21:26:36] <Tom_itx> slow it down
[21:26:41] <Tom_itx> add some delay
[21:26:42] <clever> i did, -i 10000
[21:26:45] <clever> it still didnt help
[21:26:46] <Tom_itx> -B32 or such
[21:27:23] <Tom_itx> is the part rated for 20Mhz?
[21:27:41] <clever> ummm, *checks datasheet*
[21:27:56] <clever> yep, page 1, says 20 mips at 20mhz
[21:28:44] <clever> avrdude -p m328p -vv -i 100
[21:28:44] <Casper> clever: what cap have you used on the crystal?
[21:28:46] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x1e3d00
[21:28:53] <clever> Casper: 22pf on both legs
[21:29:04] <Casper> short trace?
[21:29:09] <clever> breadboard
[21:29:22] <Casper> it may actually be the issue
[21:29:36] <Casper> but try to connect the crystal on the other side
[21:29:44] <Casper> sometime somehow it work better
[21:29:49] <clever> other side of the caps?
[21:29:54] <Casper> i.e. rotate 180 degree
[21:30:08] <clever> oh, *tries*
[21:30:08] <Casper> i.e. swap pins
[21:30:24] <Casper> I got a 4MHz crystal that was working only one way
[21:30:44] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x000100
[21:30:45] <Casper> half the class got a non-working crystal
[21:30:48] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x000002
[21:30:52] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x3c0102
[21:30:55] <clever> no real improvement
[21:31:07] <Casper> then try with and without caps
[21:31:19] <clever> on both legs at once, or one with and one without?
[21:31:28] <clever> i have verified that it oscilates
[21:31:29] <evil_dan2wik> Someone before suggested to me to try with 1 cap
[21:31:39] <Casper> can try with 2, 1 or 0 cap
[21:31:41] <clever> on xtal1 or xtal2?
[21:31:42] <Casper> or with 4
[21:31:56] <Casper> scope probe actually add capacitance
[21:31:59] <Tom_itx> it's probably a crappy breadboard
[21:32:12] <clever> Tom_itx: yeah, the breadboard is likely older then i am
[21:32:30] <clever> i believe its one my dad used when he went to school
[21:32:36] <evil_dan2wik> clever, remove 1 cap at a time
[21:33:08] <Tom_itx> stop screwing with it until you can verify a good connection on all pins
[21:33:12] <clever> ok, no cap on xtal2
[21:33:27] <Casper> clever: breadboard is problematic, it's very capacitive, inductive, resistive, tons of crosstalk and tons of noise, combine that with bad contacts and you have a recipes for disasters
[21:33:30] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x000102
[21:33:49] <evil_dan2wik> um
[21:33:54] <clever> Casper: would proto board be any better at 20mhz?
[21:34:01] <evil_dan2wik> yes
[21:34:16] <evil_dan2wik> It sounds like the breadboard is screwing with it
[21:34:36] <clever> seems strange, since i was able to confirm a 20mhz sine wave on xtal2 with my scope
[21:34:41] <clever> so the crystal is clearly working
[21:34:43] <Casper> clever: everything is better than breadboard
[21:35:10] <Casper> clever: try to double the capacitors... I beleive the probes add about 13pf of capacitance
[21:35:18] <evil_dan2wik> clever, I had a breadboard that you didn't even need capacitors for the crystal
[21:35:33] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x1e3c02
[21:35:43] <evil_dan2wik> and there were problems with serial communication and programing would constantly not verify properly
[21:35:51] <clever> its still oscilating enough to enter programming mode, with zero caps, but its just as unreliable as before
[21:36:08] <clever> 2/3rds of the device sig are wrong
[21:36:22] <clever> let me try sticking 4 on it
[21:36:28] <evil_dan2wik> clever, tried programming it
[21:36:28] <evil_dan2wik> ?
[21:36:40] <clever> avrdude kicks out before it can get that far
[21:36:41] <evil_dan2wik> 4 what?
[21:36:44] <clever> avrdude: Expected signature for ATmega328P is 1E 95 0F
[21:36:45] <clever> Double check chip, or use -F to override this check.
[21:37:08] <clever> 4 capactors, 2 on each pin
[21:38:48] <Casper> hmmm
[21:38:51] <Casper> those caps...
[21:39:01] <Casper> are they connected near the avr own ground?
[21:39:38] <clever> directly to the gnd pin one over
[21:39:58] <clever> gnd xtal1 and xtal2 are on pins 8,9,10
[21:40:43] <clever> with the scope on XTAL2, i can verify a 20mhz sine, with a peak-peak of ~2.5 volts
[21:40:49] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x3c0100
[21:40:49] <clever> avrdude: Expected signature for ATmega328P is 1E 95 0F
[21:40:54] <Tom_itx> i assume ALL the GND and +V are connected...
[21:41:08] <clever> and even with the scope still connected and confirming it, it wont read back right
[21:41:26] <evil_dan2wik> clever, sounds like desync
[21:41:33] <clever> Tom_itx: yep, both gnd, vcc, and avcc
[21:41:53] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x000102
[21:42:08] <clever> evil_dan2wik: it sometimes gets a byte of the signature right, and sometimes its just totally wrong
[21:42:14] <clever> once, it got the whole signature right, then failed to read lfuse
[21:43:08] <clever> and its surprisingly hard to read the 20mhz on my 100mhz scope, had to crank the time base right to its limit
[21:43:12] <clever> was getting some pretty convincing aliases at the lower levels
[21:43:47] <evil_dan2wik> Sounds like bad capacitance
[21:43:53] <Casper> clever: 2.5V peak?
[21:44:05] <Casper> and -2.5V peak? or 0V bottomm peak?
[21:44:14] <clever> Casper: 2.5v peak to peak, this scope wont read the level relative to gnd
[21:44:21] <clever> the bottom peak is a few volts above gnd
[21:44:28] <clever> let me adjust the 0 pos
[21:44:41] <Casper> your scope shall have a DC coupling function
[21:44:52] <clever> bottom peak is at 1v, top is at ~4.8
[21:45:08] <clever> only the difference between the 2 cursors
[21:45:10] <clever> it has dc coupling, but the display wont show the voltage at the cursor
[21:45:42] <clever> tektronix 2232
[21:45:45] <Casper> because if the top was at ~2.5V then it wasn't on full swing oscillator
[21:45:55] <clever> top is at ~4.8 volts
[21:46:08] <clever> bottom is at ~1v
[21:46:35] <clever> xtal1 pin is slightly lower, but the same waveform
[21:46:36] <evil_dan2wik> clever, does it have any program on it?
[21:46:58] <clever> evil_dan2wik: yeah, an old i2c pieces of code i was working on a few days ago
[21:47:09] <clever> which is compiled expecting an 8mhz internal osci
[21:47:24] <evil_dan2wik> Any way you can check if that code is running?
[21:47:31] <clever> *looks*
[21:47:33] <Casper> clever: btw, do you have another avr?
[21:48:08] <clever> Casper: 2 more m328p's, brand new
[21:48:08] <Casper> if so, make an insane led flasher with it, and feed that instead to xtal2 (I think, the input)... then you can change the fuses...
[21:48:37] <clever> and i'm using a teensy 2.0 as a 5v source, lol
[21:48:37] <Casper> may have to tell the programmer to use a slow speed however
[21:48:40] <clever> it can easily do that
[21:49:18] <evil_dan2wik> clever, make sure that the voltage is OK
[21:49:21] <clever> thats a trick to get it fixed when there is no crystal, but the crystal is clearly oscilating
[21:49:49] <evil_dan2wik> but the crystal is still not working
[21:50:26] <Casper> clever: the same trick can be used in this case, remove the crystal
[21:51:08] <clever> i am seeing some activity on SDA/SCL, so the i2c code is still running
[21:51:17] <clever> let me check the uart pins
[21:51:37] <Casper> oh
[21:51:40] <Casper> clever
[21:51:49] <evil_dan2wik> Are you able to see if the program is running stable?
[21:51:57] <Casper> do you have decoupling caps right beside the avr power pin?
[21:52:18] <clever> Casper: already thought of that, adding a cap to the power rails didnt help any
[21:52:22] <clever> let me see what baud the tx pin is at
[21:52:40] <evil_dan2wik> If it is running stably, then you can start to look at the programmer or the wiring to the programmer.
[21:53:08] <clever> ~22.72khz for a single bit
[21:53:16] <clever> its 8mhz code running at 20mhz, *does math*
[21:53:29] <evil_dan2wik> so, /8*20
[21:53:39] <clever> comes to about 9088baud, which is near the 9600 i was using
[21:53:47] <clever> close enough that id call it a measurement error
[21:54:07] <Casper> that's the nice thing with my scope
[21:54:12] <clever> so it is running off the 20mhz crytal
[21:54:15] <Casper> it can calculate stuff
[21:54:16] <Casper> heck
[21:54:25] <Casper> it can even decode the data!
[21:54:31] <clever> the most mine can do is add the 2 channels
[21:54:41] <Casper> 2 chan? pff
[21:54:43] <Casper> mine is 4 :D
[21:54:53] * Casper sticks out tongue
[21:54:54] <clever> tektronix 2232 100mhz
[21:55:06] <clever> crt display
[21:55:19] <evil_dan2wik> lol, cancer machine
[21:55:21] <Casper> rigol ds1104z
[21:55:32] <clever> evil_dan2wik: the last guy to calibrate it also broke the thing bad
[21:55:45] <clever> when cleaning the cal void sticker glue off, he knocked an RF gasket off the case
[21:55:48] <evil_dan2wik> lol
[21:55:51] <clever> it was floating arround and shorting things out
[21:56:08] <clever> the display was randomly going blank
[21:56:19] <clever> since putting the gasket back in place, its ran perfectly
[21:56:19] <evil_dan2wik> lol
[21:56:45] <clever> hmmm, i wonder, *edits teensy code*
[21:56:48] <evil_dan2wik> clever, 240000 baud
[21:56:56] <evil_dan2wik> no wait sorry
[21:57:00] <evil_dan2wik> 24000
[21:57:29] <Casper> clever: for pulse length... you want a time, not a frequency
[21:57:54] <clever> for serial, freq == baud
[21:58:32] <evil_dan2wik> clever, are you able to serial to it?
[21:58:51] <clever> evil_dan2wik: i can see uart traffic on the scope, i'm testing something more now
[21:59:13] <clever> evil_dan2wik: bingo, i set the teensy to act as a usb serial adapter
[21:59:17] <clever> and i set it to 24000 baud
[21:59:19] <evil_dan2wik> But, see if the output is data or random garbage
[21:59:22] <clever> and it reads the output perfectly
[21:59:26] <evil_dan2wik> Good
[21:59:31] <evil_dan2wik> Chip is working fine then
[21:59:36] <evil_dan2wik> Not the crystal
[21:59:46] <clever> and the math says that 9600 baud@8mhz running on a 20mhz crystal would come out at 24000baud
[22:00:07] <evil_dan2wik> It must be the programmer, connections or avrdude settings
[22:00:08] <clever> this is without any caps on it
[22:00:18] <evil_dan2wik> lol
[22:00:30] <clever> avrdude has worked perfectly fine before changing the fuses
[22:00:31] <evil_dan2wik> try adding the caps
[22:00:38] * clever puts caps back
[22:01:42] <clever> avrdude: Device signature = 0x1e3d02
[22:01:42] <clever> avrdude: Expected signature for ATmega328P is 1E 95 0F
[22:01:47] <clever> serial output is still perfect
[22:02:36] <evil_dan2wik> yes
[22:02:54] <clever> oh, hmmm, the ribbon cable for the serial adapter runs right over a part putting out high freq square waves
[22:02:54] <evil_dan2wik> Does the chip reset when you start programming
[22:02:56] <evil_dan2wik> ?
[22:03:08] <clever> yep
[22:03:10] <clever> thats how i'm testing the serial output
[22:03:27] <Casper> monitor the reset
[22:03:29] <clever> ok, its not the 5mhz noise source under the ribbon
[22:03:32] <Casper> it have to stay low
[22:03:54] <Casper> if your programmer somehow do not keep the reset low enought it will come out of reset, so out of programming mode
[22:04:33] <clever> Casper: it stayed at gnd for 107.2ms
[22:04:58] <Casper> voltage?
[22:05:25] <clever> full swing, very clean edges
[22:05:44] <clever> snaps from 5v to 0v, and stays there the entire time, then snaps back up
[22:05:53] <Casper> it won'T go to 0.00
[22:06:21] <Casper> I think the reset low is <0.6V
[22:06:29] <clever> its gone as close to 0 as i can see it at 1v per div
[22:06:46] <evil_dan2wik> clever, optimal caps for your crystal is 16pF
[22:07:17] <clever> pretty sure the caps and crystal are perfect, given that its output 24000baud serial
[22:07:44] <evil_dan2wik> I am just saying, optimal
[22:07:46] <clever> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8571 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/534 incase your wondering which ones i'm using
[22:08:53] <evil_dan2wik> My laptop is about to go flat.
[22:09:17] <clever> run, find a socket!
[22:09:54] <Casper> evil_dan2wik: somehow I got a flash of a stupid funny movie in my head
[22:10:19] <Casper> the movie "airplane!"
[22:10:22] <evil_dan2wik> lol
[22:10:28] <Casper> when the autopilot...
[22:10:36] <Casper> :D
[22:11:12] <Casper> man that movie was so hilarous
[22:13:37] <clever> probing arround, i see that the SPI clock is about 15khz
[22:13:42] <clever> way below the 20mhz system clock
[22:16:08] <clever> cant find anything wrong with the setup, it just refuses ti work
[22:16:37] <Casper> probably a bad breadboard
[22:17:04] <Tom_itx> i said that an hour ago
[22:17:08] <clever> bad where?
[22:17:10] <clever> on the ISP pins?
[22:17:30] <Tom_itx> rewire it
[22:17:51] <Tom_itx> move it over on the breadboard if you don't have another one or something else to wire it on
[22:19:52] <clever> hmmm, an ohm meter confirms that every AVR pin is connected to the ISP programmer pins
[22:19:57] <clever> nothing is open
[22:21:33] <clever> and i see 40 ohms between sck and gnd
[22:22:45] <clever> which turns out to be a diode in the programming adapter
[22:27:03] <Casper> man I want a 10GHz 16 cores cpu so compilations goes blasting fast!
[22:27:29] <Casper> I want to toy with that software radio... compiling the stuff is surprisingly long
[22:27:56] <clever> heh, i just installed gnuradio last night
[22:28:09] <clever> but i'm planning on abusing it for non-radio tasks
[22:28:15] <clever> 18 channel audio capture/mixing
[22:28:53] <Casper> 96% compiled
[22:29:21] <clever> cmake is nice like that
[22:29:31] <clever> ive been throwing it into a lot of my recent projects
[22:30:26] <Casper> Ooo eee,ooo ah ah ting tang Walla walla, bang bang
[22:31:22] <Casper> now claim 100%
[22:32:05] <Casper> oh yeah, cc1plus take 1.337G ram :D
[22:32:12] <clever> heh
[22:33:14] <Casper> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
[22:33:14] <Casper> 5687 portage 20 0 1565424 1.337g 14008 R 100.0 17.1 2:53.44 cc1plus
[22:33:32] <clever> hit c
[22:34:26] <Casper> done
[22:35:20] * clever fires up the radio shack fire-starter
[22:35:48] <Casper> ish I hope it wasn't bought in canada
[22:35:54] <Casper> ratshack closed years ago
[22:36:14] <clever> it was bought in canada, probly from the source though
[22:36:21] <clever> radio shack is still open south of the border though
[22:37:12] <Casper> No UHD Devices Found grrrrrr
[23:06:35] <evil_dan2wik> Ok, back.
[23:06:39] <evil_dan2wik> clever, working?
[23:14:30] <clever> evil_dan2wik: nope
[23:14:41] <evil_dan2wik> ok.
[23:15:21] <evil_dan2wik> I think it might be the programmer or AVRdude settings
[23:16:52] <clever> programmer worked fine before the crystal
[23:18:10] <evil_dan2wik> yeah
[23:18:25] <evil_dan2wik> Maybe it can't handle the crystal change.
[23:18:50] <clever> from what i understand, the programmer clock has to be slower then the clock the avr runs at
[23:18:57] <clever> so increasing the avr clock shouldnt be an issue
[23:19:50] <evil_dan2wik> clever, what programming speed are you trying?
[23:20:46] <clever> the scope shows ~15khz on the ISP clock line
[23:20:57] <evil_dan2wik> That is very slow
[23:21:06] <clever> its bit-banging a rs232 port
[23:21:07] <evil_dan2wik> Try to get it to around 4-5MHz
[23:21:12] <evil_dan2wik> ...
[23:21:32] <clever> its worked fine for years on the internal oscilator
[23:21:44] <evil_dan2wik> Are you programming through ICSP?
[23:21:50] <clever> yep
[23:21:53] <evil_dan2wik> ok.
[23:23:29] <evil_dan2wik> clever, I think you need a better programmer.
[23:23:52] <evil_dan2wik> I think that the chip is too fast to notice that the programmer is wanting to program
[23:24:32] <clever> i do have a teensy 2.0 running at 16mhz
[23:24:49] <clever> i was going to try the ardruinoISP program on it
[23:25:22] <evil_dan2wik> Try that
[23:25:30] <evil_dan2wik> But there is a better programmer for it.
[23:25:34] <evil_dan2wik> I forget what it is
[23:25:43] <clever> avrdude is having timeout errors talking to it over the virtual serial port
[23:25:59] <evil_dan2wik> which one?
[23:26:20] <clever> the avrdude.exe that came with the arduino software
[23:26:37] <evil_dan2wik> no, Which device
[23:26:41] <evil_dan2wik> programmer*
[23:27:08] <clever> teensy 2.0 programmed with ArdruinoISP
[23:27:30] <clever> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12765
[23:30:34] <evil_dan2wik> clever, you pushed the reset button on the teensy?
[23:30:45] <evil_dan2wik> windows linux mac?
[23:31:08] <clever> windows
[23:31:27] <clever> and yeah, the sketch is running, i set the heartbeat led to pin 11, and its blinking away
[23:32:00] <evil_dan2wik> ok
[23:32:20] <clever> i'm trying linux avrdude against the sketch now
[23:32:26] <evil_dan2wik> What commands are you giving avrdude?
[23:32:28] <clever> but the serial port isnt even registering
[23:32:40] <clever> C:\Program Files (x86)\Arduino\hardware\tools\avr\bin> .\avrdude.exe -p m168p -P COM1 -vvvv -c avrisp -C ..\etc\avrdude.conf -b 19200
[23:32:49] <evil_dan2wik> is it COM1?
[23:32:53] <clever> yep
[23:32:55] <evil_dan2wik> ok
[23:33:07] <evil_dan2wik> avrisp?
[23:33:15] <evil_dan2wik> should it be that?
[23:33:18] <clever> the sketch is emulating that device
[23:33:34] <evil_dan2wik> you sure?
[23:33:39] <clever> // This sketch turns the Arduino into a AVRISP
[23:33:45] <clever> thats what the comment on line 6 says
[23:33:58] <evil_dan2wik> ok
[23:35:58] <evil_dan2wik> are you able to burn using the arduino IDE?
[23:36:16] <clever> i can program the teensy from the ardruino IDE
[23:36:22] <evil_dan2wik> ok
[23:36:31] <clever> but the clock is too slow for my main project, so i'm trying to upgrade to a 20mhz on another chip
[23:36:31] <evil_dan2wik> Are you able to burn the other chip using the teensy?
[23:36:40] <clever> avrdude cant talk to the teensy
[23:36:46] <evil_dan2wik> why not?
[23:36:53] <clever> avrdude.exe: Send: Q [51] [20]
[23:36:53] <clever> avrdude.exe: Recv:
[23:36:54] <clever> avrdude.exe: stk500_disable(): protocol error, expect=0x14, resp=0x51
[23:37:13] <evil_dan2wik> ok...
[23:37:14] <evil_dan2wik> http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/teensy_2_0_as_avr_isp_programmer
[23:38:40] <clever> thats pretty much exactly what ive done
[23:39:08] <clever> though its using -c ardruino instead of -c avrisp
[23:39:47] <evil_dan2wik> try that
[23:40:11] <clever> yep, it does something
[23:40:28] <clever> let me see what the output pins are doing
[23:42:09] <clever> the ISP clock pin never changes once
[23:42:16] <clever> so its not even attempting to send data out
[23:42:22] <clever> or its using the 'wrong' pin
[23:45:55] <clever> looks like i'm on the same pin its trying to bit-bang
[23:46:30] <evil_dan2wik> Are you looking at the SPI interface?
[23:46:34] <clever> yeah
[23:46:37] <evil_dan2wik> ok
[23:46:54] <evil_dan2wik> I need to solder something, be back in around 10 minutes.
[23:47:08] <clever> i need to get to bed
[23:56:26] <evil_dan2wik> k, back
