#avr | Logs for 2013-12-29

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[00:01:37] <mitc0185> I'm using a buspirate to program this thing because I couldn't get the bootloader to work
[00:01:52] <mitc0185> is it possible I'm doing something wrong with the buspirate that's giving me weird results?
[00:02:07] * mitc0185 is a compleat newbie
[00:03:33] <mitc0185> what file type would avr-gcc be giving me? As in what do I tell avrdude to write to the chip?
[00:09:16] <Casper> should be a .hex
[00:15:00] <mitc0185> Casper: really?
[00:15:25] <Casper> yup
[00:15:28] <Casper> you flashed the .bin?
[00:20:45] <mitc0185> Casper: I flashed a ".out" which is just what I named it
[00:20:49] <mitc0185> from my compiler
[00:20:59] <mitc0185> wrote it as raw binary
[00:21:21] <Casper> that is non-working
[00:21:37] <mitc0185> it is part of my non-working recipe
[00:22:04] <mitc0185> but there is some sense to it
[00:22:11] <mitc0185> setting a port to output, for example
[00:22:14] <mitc0185> that's working
[00:22:24] <Casper> yes
[00:22:29] <mitc0185> it's just the while loop and the delay that doesn't seem to work
[00:22:34] <Casper> but the jump of the while won't work
[00:22:41] <Casper> and other jumps
[00:22:46] <mitc0185> ah
[00:22:55] <Casper> there is an offset that gcc put in the binary that shouln't be there...
[00:23:31] <Casper> bed time
[00:23:39] <Casper> another big day tomo... today...
[00:23:41] <Casper> nite
[00:35:13] <inflex> gack... no damned power lead to use
[02:07:12] <megal0maniac_afk> Listening to music on the 32u4 again. I know people who wouldn't be able to tell the difference :P
[02:24:01] <Roklobsta> megal0maniac_afk: i missed something. what do you mean by listening to music?
[02:24:11] <Roklobsta> 8 bit pwm?
[02:47:44] <megal0maniac_afk> Roklobsta: :D
[02:48:00] <megal0maniac_afk> Roklobsta: http://megal0maniac.dyndns.biz/32u4.mp3
[02:49:08] <megal0maniac_afk> Using a LUFA demo. No filtering whatsoever
[03:07:24] <bitd> Yotson !
[03:07:30] <bitd> Hai <.<
[03:07:51] <Yotson> morning. o/
[04:42:35] <abcminiuser> megal0maniac_afk, sweet jesus that sounds horrendous
[04:42:41] <abcminiuser> You my good man need a low-pass
[04:43:08] <megal0maniac_afk> abcminiuser: I know
[04:43:14] <megal0maniac_afk> But...
[04:43:32] <megal0maniac_afk> Well I'm amazed at how good that sounds, considering where it's coming from
[04:43:57] * abcminiuser sadface
[04:44:13] <bitd> What did i miss.
[04:44:19] <bitd> What sonuds horrendous.
[04:44:39] <megal0maniac_afk> bitd: An atmega32u4 pretending to be a sound card
[04:44:44] <bitd> lol.
[04:44:45] <megal0maniac_afk> With PWM
[04:44:57] <bitd> Got video? <.<
[04:45:07] <megal0maniac_afk> http://megal0maniac.dyndns.biz/32u4.mp3
[04:45:33] <megal0maniac_afk> abcminiuser: I know it could sound better though. What is the effective bitrate?
[04:46:25] <megal0maniac_afk> Also, low-pass? Don't you mean high-pass?
[04:47:05] <bitd> Inst the "hissing" high frequency?
[04:47:17] <megal0maniac_afk> Yes but so is the audio
[04:47:36] <bitd> So how does one even split that.
[04:47:45] <megal0maniac_afk> Use a real DAC :D
[04:48:38] <abcminiuser> megal0maniac_afk, low-pass, you want to lose the higher PWM aliasing sound
[04:48:42] <abcminiuser> It's 48KHz, 7-bit
[04:48:57] <megal0maniac_afk> Ah. Hence the high noise floor
[04:49:30] <megal0maniac_afk> abcminiuser: You're a magician :) How's holiday?
[04:49:41] <megal0maniac_afk> Did Atmel throw you a party?
[04:50:19] <megal0maniac_afk> And bestow upon you the most disgustingly over-engineered coffee timer as a parting gift?
[04:54:29] <abcminiuser> Pretty shnazzy holiday so far, lots of eating
[04:54:33] <abcminiuser> No big party for me
[04:54:36] <abcminiuser> Just a cake
[04:54:37] <abcminiuser> Woo
[04:55:04] <megal0maniac_afk> Cake is gooood
[04:55:10] <megal0maniac_afk> Also
[04:55:26] <megal0maniac_afk> How difficult would it be to make that demo work with the xmega DAC?
[04:59:45] <abcminiuser> Err
[04:59:55] <abcminiuser> Impossible at the moment native
[05:00:05] <abcminiuser> No LUFA Isochronous endpoint support
[05:00:26] <abcminiuser> I did hook up an XMEGA to it once and just use the DAC tho
[05:00:26] <abcminiuser> It's on 'Freaks somewhere, used the old XPLAIN board
[05:02:24] <bitd> Still do not like that forum name.
[05:02:39] <abcminiuser> Which?
[05:02:42] <abcminiuser> Oh
[05:02:45] <bitd> avr freaks
[05:02:46] <abcminiuser> Why not?
[05:03:14] <bitd> Dont think it does the forum any good.
[05:03:38] <bitd> avr-forum would have been better.
[07:08:19] <abcminiuser> Thingy: I've made one
[07:08:56] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you made a thingie?
[07:09:40] <abcminiuser> New AS6.1 extension
[07:10:45] <abcminiuser> Syntax highlights HEX and SREC, and shows the ASCII data in the margin
[07:12:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aahh
[07:20:06] <aep> so does everything in the atmel software framework just use interupts?
[07:20:12] <aep> doesnt look like there's an RTOS or anything
[07:20:27] <aep> will this work if i had an RTOS?
[07:21:22] <Epsilon-Aurigae> will what work?
[07:21:27] <aep> that asf stuff.
[07:21:37] <aep> well specifically the usb stack
[07:22:12] <aep> i guess if its just using interupts, they might either magically coexists with everything else or collide
[07:22:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> usb stack and an rtos....that's a hard one...I suppose one could port the stack to an rtos but it would take the realtime out of it somewhat.
[07:22:46] <aep> so no-ish
[07:23:02] <aep> i have to write my own crap. sucks
[07:23:06] <Epsilon-Aurigae> wasn't there an rtos in the asf stuff?
[07:23:54] <aep> uh
[07:23:58] <aep> well its all interrupts
[07:24:09] <aep> i dont see how this can work with something else trying to manage tasks
[07:24:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yeah...that's how you get realtime stuff.
[07:24:40] <aep> but that means the code from the usb interupt just runs as long as it wants doesnt it?
[07:24:49] <aep> oh. unless there's another interrupt
[07:25:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> as long as it needs to if it is running inside an interrupt itself.
[07:25:12] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if you interrupt usb comms you lose packets or connection.
[07:25:18] <aep> awesome
[07:25:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> this is the nature of usb....
[07:25:38] <aep> yeah, but, uh
[07:25:54] <aep> i was hoping an RTOS has that stuff solved by having interupt handlers that buffer
[07:25:57] <Epsilon-Aurigae> now, the usb hardware takes care of a lot of that asynchronously but it still needs to read or write memory.
[07:26:13] <aep> oh, the hardware buffers?
[07:26:16] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if you are so worried about it, move usb comms off chip.
[07:26:26] <aep> i would, but i dont understand usb chips
[07:26:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> use an ftdi chip
[07:26:44] <aep> i thought they only make uarts :D
[07:26:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> no.
[07:27:11] <aep> can you freely program those things to be composite devices?
[07:27:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what exactly are you trying to accomplish?
[07:27:28] <aep> audio + data. it's sort of like a synthesizer
[07:27:47] <aep> ftdi chips apparantly have a fixed function
[07:27:55] <aep> uart, i2c and that kind of stuff
[07:28:14] <aep> but maybe i'm just not getting how this works
[07:28:33] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so you are wanting to make a usb audio device?
[07:28:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> why do you need an rtos for this?
[07:29:22] <aep> well, because i'm stupidly trying to cram the usb to DAC thing into the main mcu
[07:29:39] <aep> and that's kindof time sensitive, plus there is stuff that might take an unknown time like configuring stuff
[07:29:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> shouldn't need an rtos for that....the rtos just adds overhead.
[07:30:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you don't need multiple "threads" I wouldn't think.
[07:30:29] <aep> if i had a chip that did the hard part for me and just gave me an i2c or whatever sideband next to a DAC, i would be happy
[07:30:51] <aep> uhm, not sure. i dont want to litter the usb code with manual preemption
[07:30:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> beyond the usb comms, you need to take the incoming data and feed it out to one or more DACs....
[07:32:02] <aep> so how do those ftdi chips work?
[07:32:10] <aep> can you program them?
[07:33:22] <Epsilon-Aurigae> some you can, but I'm not seeing one that will do what you want.
[07:33:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what are you going to use to feed the synth data to the device?
[07:33:56] <aep> not midi
[07:34:15] <aep> there's more than notes. so i'll have to implement my own thing on a separate usb bulk channel
[07:34:34] <aep> that's not time sensitive or complex. it would work on an 8bit avr
[07:34:39] <Epsilon-Aurigae> why not a stream rather than bulk?
[07:34:44] <aep> uh or stream
[07:34:54] <aep> but not isothingy, the priority one
[07:34:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so you can use a usb to i2c or usb to uart.
[07:35:00] <aep> that i'd need for audio
[07:35:09] <aep> yeah but whats with audio :D
[07:35:30] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you are sending synth data and audio stream?
[07:35:35] <Epsilon-Aurigae> or just synth data?
[07:35:50] <aep> both
[07:35:58] <aep> 8 audio streams in, 2 out
[07:36:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so, again, what are you using to send this data?
[07:36:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> how are you planning on sending it?
[07:36:50] <aep> on a separate usb data endpoint. dunno how windows works yet, but on linux its just libusb
[07:37:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what format
[07:37:02] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ?
[07:37:19] <aep> uh. i dont know yet. does it matter?
[07:37:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yeah.
[07:37:34] <aep> its just configuration data. so probably some big frames
[07:37:37] <Epsilon-Aurigae> need to know the format to know what kind of bandwidth you need.
[07:37:52] <aep> not a lot of bandwith. it doesnt do much
[07:38:00] <aep> its just to control a dsp
[07:38:07] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the audio streams.
[07:38:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> format...
[07:38:13] <aep> aaah
[07:38:24] <aep> 96Kbs PCM stereo
[07:38:36] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the synth data you can do easily with a CDC
[07:38:51] <aep> yeah, its the trivial part
[07:39:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that is just under 2Mb/s
[07:39:38] <aep> sounds good
[07:39:42] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 96K times 2(for stereo) times 10 for streams
[07:39:58] <aep> oh you mean the audio data?
[07:40:01] <aep> didnt know its that little
[07:40:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yeah.
[07:40:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> math is your friend.
[07:40:44] <aep> my belly says having high speed usb is a good thing anyway. you never know
[07:40:48] <aep> maybe i'd add more stuff
[07:41:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 96 * 1024 * 2 * 10 = 1966080 or just under 2Mb/s
[07:41:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> well, no avr is going to handle 480Mb/s throughput..it just won't happen.
[07:41:30] <aep> right
[07:41:52] <aep> as i said, i really want to use a dedicated chip for the DAC dma transfer, but i cant find one
[07:41:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> handling a full 12Mb/s throughput of full speed usb is pushing it if you are doing anything but moving data.
[07:42:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> dma from where to the DAC?
[07:42:39] <aep> the ... err good question
[07:42:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> dma is direct memory access
[07:42:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> an external chip can't directly access the memory in an avr.
[07:43:08] <aep> right, that was stupid
[07:43:15] <aep> what i mean is from usb to dac
[07:44:34] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so, you will have 8 DACs, yes?
[07:44:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> well, 16 actually, two for each stream.
[07:44:52] <aep> yeah
[07:44:56] <aep> ADCs actually
[07:45:04] <aep> same problem though
[07:45:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> only 4 ADCs
[07:45:17] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ADC is for incoming
[07:45:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> DAC is for output.
[07:45:21] <aep> yeah, i did mean 8 in
[07:45:38] <Epsilon-Aurigae> oops
[07:45:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I read that the wrong way.
[07:45:50] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so 4 DACs and 16 ADCs
[07:45:58] <aep> yeah
[07:46:53] <aep> is this what i want? http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/VNC2.htm
[07:46:57] <Epsilon-Aurigae> were I doing this I would do it with multiple devices and a big hub.
[07:46:59] <aep> says something about programable
[07:47:08] <aep> yeah i thought about that too
[07:47:23] <aep> hub chips are cheap and probably just work
[07:47:32] <aep> but you'd be adding some latency
[07:47:38] <aep> and it's kind of cheating :D
[07:47:55] <abcminiuser> Anyone feeling brave?
[07:48:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the vnc2 chip is awesome...something else to learn to program though...it's their own processor.
[07:48:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> abcminiuser: never...
[07:49:16] <abcminiuser> http://fourwalledcubicle.com/files/vsix/HEXClassifier.vsix
[07:49:30] <abcminiuser> Should show ASCII'd data when you open SREC/HEX files in AS6.1
[07:49:31] <aep> they use it in something called vmusic2, but i just realized thats not even an audio usb class
[07:50:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> abcminiuser: give me 5 minutes to launch AS
[07:50:56] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aep: I would do it with streaming the audio data over a CDC connection and doing the convert at the PC side.
[07:51:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> abcminiuser: how to load that?
[07:51:38] <abcminiuser> Run it and it should prompt to install
[07:52:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> installing.
[07:53:20] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: might work. this thing says 8 data lines at 30mbits http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/FT232H.htm
[07:53:40] <aep> will this show up as CDC?
[07:54:36] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yes...the ft232 series is CDC
[07:54:48] <aep> neat, i'll try those
[07:55:24] <aep> err, is it an i2c master?
[07:55:34] <Epsilon-Aurigae> not likely.
[07:55:48] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that's just a dumb CDC connector..
[07:56:07] <aep> darn. so i need something else again for transfering from the ADC to the usb chip
[07:56:31] <Epsilon-Aurigae> an attiny85 would do that.
[07:56:48] <aep> fast enough?
[07:56:54] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 16MHz
[07:57:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if you use an external crystal...which you will need for uart comms.
[07:57:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> suck data from i2c and feed it out to uart at 96Kb/s should be simple for such a chip.
[07:59:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but that's for one channel only...
[07:59:26] <aep> yeah
[07:59:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> not sure how your ADCs work.
[07:59:38] <aep> i didnt buy them yet. most are i2c
[07:59:43] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you could, in theory, connect multiple ADCs to one i2c bus
[07:59:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you would have to cycle through reading them.
[08:00:07] <aep> could be fast enough. i'd have to do the math
[08:00:17] <aep> but then i wonder why i cant just use an avr with builtin usb
[08:00:30] <aep> oh. because the builtin usbs are slow
[08:00:50] <Epsilon-Aurigae> they can get fast enough for the throughput you need.
[08:00:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you only need 2Mb/s throughput.
[08:01:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> now, as for your ADC...do you need to initiate conversion on each one then wait to read it or is it constant running or what?
[08:02:17] <Epsilon-Aurigae> abcminiuser: so, it loaded..what am I looking at anyhow? have a hex file open.
[08:02:30] <abcminiuser> Is the contents in colour?
[08:02:37] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yup..
[08:02:44] <abcminiuser> Do you see the ASCII data on the left?
[08:02:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> green and red and cyan and yellowish
[08:02:59] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ascii data on left, yes
[08:03:03] <abcminiuser> Woo
[08:03:10] <abcminiuser> Then it works - normally it's just a B&W flat text file
[08:03:16] <Epsilon-Aurigae> dunno what use that ascii is,,
[08:03:26] <abcminiuser> To see if your strings make it into the final binary
[08:03:31] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aahh.
[08:03:32] <abcminiuser> Can be useful for debugging
[08:03:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so it's extracting the data?
[08:03:50] <abcminiuser> Jupp
[08:03:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> kewl.
[08:04:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I don't usually use AS myself.
[08:04:10] <abcminiuser> You may want the others I made too: http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=137029
[08:04:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> find it rather bulky...had to fire it up on the other machine.
[08:04:17] <abcminiuser> Yeah, it's getting better
[08:04:24] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but,,it's windows!
[08:04:38] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I have a windows computer for testing stuff, not for my main work.
[08:05:23] <aep> i wonder what these do: http://www.ti.com/product/tusb3210
[08:06:06] <aep> says something about i2c master, but doesnt tell how to program it
[08:06:07] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that is like the vnc2
[08:06:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it is an 8052 microcontroller with USB
[08:06:30] <aep> oh
[08:06:43] <Epsilon-Aurigae> says so right in the description.
[08:07:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> lqfp64 package too.
[08:07:51] <aep> better than the fricking 144 pins of the uc3 :(
[08:08:04] <aep> of which i need 8
[08:08:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> for what?
[08:08:28] <aep> if i put everything in an avr32
[08:08:35] <aep> instead of using a dedicated usb chip
[08:08:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> a single avr32 should handle everything you are wanting to do.
[08:09:00] <aep> yep, there is even an appnote
[08:09:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> hell, a single pic32 would do it too and I have those in 28pin dip package.
[08:10:01] <aep> hm, i was assuming full speed usb is not sufficient because all audio interfaces require usb2
[08:10:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> might I suggest learning how the various parts actually work and how the software works before trying to just throw together such a project off the cuff?
[08:10:13] <aep> on usb1 they degrade to crap
[08:10:30] <aep> eh, that's what i'm doing :P
[08:10:55] <Epsilon-Aurigae> by learning I mean, read datasheets, get some samples and actually build devices and test throughput.
[08:11:13] <aep> yeah, pretty much doing that
[08:11:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you don't even know how your ADC and DAC work apparently.
[08:11:30] <aep> but i'm missing alot of things to actually start building something that even works
[08:11:37] <aep> nop, didnt buy any yet
[08:11:39] <Epsilon-Aurigae> one part at a time...
[08:11:51] <Epsilon-Aurigae> start with ADC, DAC, and a microcontroller.
[08:11:57] <Epsilon-Aurigae> get audio fed in one and out the other.
[08:12:01] <aep> oh you mean build a small thing first? hm
[08:12:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yeah.
[08:12:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> learn how the hardware works.
[08:12:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what it is capable of doing
[08:12:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what its limitations are.
[08:12:26] <Phinxy> Last time i did atmega programming i had a hard time with C, have anyone tried PyMite?
[08:13:02] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: I use C almost exclusively for AVR atmega and attiny programming...with some assembly subroutines...never touched pymite.
[08:13:03] <Phinxy> maybe its called python-on-a-chip
[08:13:17] <Epsilon-Aurigae> would seriously slow down the application.
[08:13:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> does it interpret the python on chip or pre-compile it?
[08:13:44] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: thing is, there's a lot to learn and i'd rather learn only the pieces i need. so if i need a dedicated controller, i'll learn how to use that, but not if i dont need any
[08:13:48] <Phinxy> well my atmega 128 runs with a 16mhz clock speed.. haha
[08:14:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: my atmega1284p runs at 20MHz
[08:14:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but interpreting python will be like running it at 4MHz or less.
[08:14:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I have a C interpreter and a basic interpreter for the atmega1284p too and those are slow as well.
[08:15:24] <aep> maybe cython would work?
[08:15:43] <aep> it compiles to C. no idea if it can compile to avr's lib tho :/
[08:16:12] <Epsilon-Aurigae> dunno if it would be compatible with avr-gcc...don't see why it couldn't be though.
[08:16:25] <aep> because it might use libc stuff that avr doesnt have
[08:16:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> might have difficulty accessing avr specific stuff like i/o ports and such.
[08:16:42] <aep> and that too.
[08:17:08] <aep> but isnt arduino helping with exactly that issue?
[08:17:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I see no reason to use python over C myself...but I'm an old goat.
[08:17:17] <aep> like they have their own simpler language
[08:17:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ardweeny is a wrapped C++
[08:17:43] <aep> uh well, i guess some people dont need efficiency but rather would like to have fun :D
[08:17:45] <Epsilon-Aurigae> with lots of libraries that abstract you from the hardware.
[08:17:51] <aep> ah
[08:18:07] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and ardweeny libs can be horribly slow.
[08:18:30] <aep> i dont think Phinxy cares
[08:19:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: so, in the end, if you don't mind slow, pymite should work fine for you.
[08:19:37] <Phinxy> I might as well try it. it has an interactive promt. which means i should be able to try stuff live without flashing with usbasp all the time?
[08:19:53] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: actually, the math here http://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4376143/Fundamentals-of-USB-Audio says that full speed usb cant even do 4 channels
[08:20:17] <aep> "Full Speed USB cannot carry more than a single stereo IN and OUT pair at 48 kHz"
[08:20:50] <Epsilon-Aurigae> they are doing 32bit audio...I was figuring on 8bit.
[08:21:08] <aep> erm, yeah. glad we double checked that :D
[08:21:25] <aep> because yeah, i want 24bits minimum
[08:21:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> this is why I posted my math.
[08:21:31] <aep> right
[08:21:56] <Epsilon-Aurigae> again, learn to crawl before trying to run.
[08:22:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> play with the hardware and software...learn what it can and can't do in the real world...learn how it all goes together...
[08:22:34] <aep> eh, you're helping me to learn that right now :)
[08:23:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> before I ever touched an AVR I read the datasheet end to end then went back and studied the sections I was interested in.
[08:23:30] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but, back then there weren't any irc channels to help me learn it either.
[08:24:35] <Epsilon-Aurigae> my most complex device I ever made was an audio/visual two way communicator.
[08:25:04] <aep> so, like a transmitter/receiver thing?
[08:25:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> used an atmega1284p and a nordic 2.4ghz radio along with a little BW camera and LCD.
[08:25:22] <aep> oh with lcd
[08:25:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> was made as a kid's toy.
[08:25:32] <aep> people paid serious money for that years ago :D
[08:25:39] <Epsilon-Aurigae> press button and transmit audio and video.
[08:25:43] <aep> now its all replaced by skype, basically
[08:25:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> range of about 15 meters
[08:26:09] <Epsilon-Aurigae> now I use old discarded android phones and get 30fps video over wifi.
[08:26:18] <aep> yeh
[08:26:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> mine was basically a video version of the old walkie talkies of old.
[08:26:51] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I got about 4 frames per second of video.
[08:27:09] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but I learned a lot about my hardware in the process.
[08:27:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> made 6 of them...had 4 different channels so you could go "private" or talk on a "public" channel...
[08:28:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> nieces and nephews have them now.
[08:28:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> one device could broadcast to multiple others on the same channel.
[08:28:48] <aep> make it a door bell thingy :D
[08:29:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you mean a video doorbell?
[08:29:01] <aep> they are ridiculously expensive for not doing much
[08:29:03] <aep> yeah
[08:29:06] <Epsilon-Aurigae> have one
[08:29:11] <aep> yeah but sell it
[08:29:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it's called a samsung galaxy Y
[08:29:15] <aep> heh
[08:29:19] <Epsilon-Aurigae> stuck to the door
[08:29:31] <aep> probably works
[08:29:42] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ip cam software works great off that.
[08:29:59] <Epsilon-Aurigae> have a pair of them.
[08:30:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> one on the door, one in the back living room.
[08:30:33] <Epsilon-Aurigae> they are constantly on watching the camera of the other so you can see what's at the other end.
[08:30:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> freely available software right off the android play store.
[08:31:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and I can see either camera from my PC here.
[08:31:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> or, if I bother to open the ports, I can see them from anywhere.
[08:32:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I haven't tied audio in yet but I can at least see who is at the door and wave to them.
[08:33:01] <aep> sounds easy
[08:33:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pas.webcam&hl=en
[08:33:16] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the ip webcam software will feed audio as well as video too.
[08:33:38] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I would want to make a push to talk button though.
[08:33:54] <aep> maybe it can be controlled with intents
[08:34:06] <aep> then you can use tasker or something to tell the thing to start
[08:35:13] <aep> yep you can
[08:35:22] <aep> http://hit-mob.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=697
[08:35:49] <aep> oh, different webcam app
[08:38:16] <Epsilon-Aurigae> lots of them out there.
[08:38:36] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I'm learning android programming so I can eventually make it do what I want.
[08:38:37] <aep> but basically, find one that supports tasker, because then you can do anything with them
[08:38:49] <aep> or yeah build it yourself, not that hard
[08:38:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> my first android app is to be a DMM.
[08:39:06] <aep> whats that
[08:39:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I have some DMM chip samples from maxim.
[08:39:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> digital multi meter
[08:39:17] <aep> ah
[08:39:24] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ammeter, voltmeter, ohmmeter.
[08:39:26] <aep> huh that'd be cool
[08:39:37] <Epsilon-Aurigae> plug to an android for the display and control and logging.
[08:39:38] <aep> with bluetooth? :D
[08:39:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I'm doing this first one usb
[08:40:01] <aep> right. needs power too
[08:40:02] <Epsilon-Aurigae> as I don't have any bluetooth modules at the moment.
[08:40:19] <aep> bt is hard anyway, unless you run linux, then its expensive
[08:40:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> naaa.
[08:40:36] <Epsilon-Aurigae> just use bluetooth serial bridge chips.
[08:40:41] <aep> ah
[08:40:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then it's just a matter of matching them up and away you go.
[08:40:52] <aep> neat
[08:40:57] <Epsilon-Aurigae> lots of them around for not too much money...
[08:41:03] <aep> sounds like a good idea
[08:41:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then you get a virtual serial port on your computer/android
[08:41:19] <twnqx`> so... is there a channel with a quality like this one here for TI stellaris/tiva? :X
[08:41:22] <aep> i hate my multimeter because its always out of battery, or broken, or i have no idea where it is
[08:41:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you can do much more with them though.
[08:41:41] <aep> twnqx`: maybe ##microcontrolers
[08:41:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> twnqx`: ummm...there is a stellaris channel....I found it rather not good though.
[08:42:02] <aep> guys there are helpful with anything
[08:42:40] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I'm doing something rather bad with my android dmm though...I'm using an evil chip...a pic32.
[08:42:51] <aep> whats wrong with it?
[08:42:55] <aep> i liked pics
[08:43:02] <aep> except i hate the IDE
[08:43:17] <Epsilon-Aurigae> shh..the AVR gods might hear you..
[08:43:19] <aep> and generally most libs are unusable because the buildsystem is so shit
[08:43:33] <aep> well i use avr because i want to get stuff done :D
[08:43:45] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but, mostly I'm using pic32 because it's fast and has hardware usb in a dip package.
[08:43:56] <aep> there are plenty avrs with usb
[08:43:58] <twnqx`> IDEs all suck :P
[08:44:03] <Epsilon-Aurigae> not in dip package there aren't
[08:44:06] <twnqx`> regardsless of which
[08:44:06] <aep> ah
[08:44:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> in fact, no avr in dip package has usb.
[08:44:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> where I have at least 5 different pic chips here that meet that requirement.
[08:44:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> twnqx`: agreed...I avoid IDEs as much as possible.
[08:44:46] <aep> yeah, pics have more stuff. i'm always tempted to go with a pic for my project because of the specs, but then i remember how crap the software is
[08:45:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I find AVR much easier to work with overall though.
[08:45:22] <aep> you waste days in mplap and then you change chips and have to do it again
[08:47:11] <aep> keep me in the loop with that multimeter thing if you opensource it
[08:47:13] <aep> i need one
[08:47:24] <aep> and add a logic analyzer :D
[08:47:49] <aep> probably nice to work with with a 7 inch tablet
[08:51:59] <Epsilon-Aurigae> logic analyzer is in the plans.
[08:52:26] <aep> \o/
[08:52:57] <Epsilon-Aurigae> as is a linux, and possibly windows and mac clients.
[08:53:43] <aep> got a github?
[08:53:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and possibly either an sd or usb logging option.
[08:53:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> nope.
[08:54:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> no code yet beyond trying to get the pic32 to talk to the android.
[08:54:14] <aep> right
[08:54:50] <Phinxy> Do you guys use a breadboard for prototyping?
[08:54:54] <aep> yeah
[08:54:55] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I do.
[08:55:04] <Epsilon-Aurigae> which is why I require dip package chips.
[08:55:30] <aep> yeah, it became kind of useless when i went to more complex stuff
[08:55:31] <Phinxy> how would you prototype a non-dip? adapter?
[08:55:42] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and, yes, I know you can get surface mount to dip adapter boards.
[08:55:46] <aep> now i getho wire stuff and try to learn how to build real pcbs
[08:55:56] <Epsilon-Aurigae> but those cost extra money.
[08:56:04] <aep> Phinxy: depends on the package
[08:56:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and, as this is a very low budget hobby for me, I prefer to stick with what I can get cheap and easy.
[08:56:46] <aep> you can hand solder qfp48 with ugly wires, and some people can do 64. i ordered some schmartboards for qfp144, because i cant solder this
[08:56:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aep: I've seen tqfp144 to dip adapters.
[08:57:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and bga to dip adapters too.
[08:57:14] <aep> yo. schmartboard, or sockets
[08:57:20] <aep> sockets are seriously expensive
[08:57:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> schmartboards are interesting but expensive.
[08:57:35] <aep> nah. like 10Eur per piece
[08:57:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that's expensive to me.
[08:57:51] <aep> if they work as well as advertised, its worth it for me
[08:57:56] <Epsilon-Aurigae> they do.
[08:57:58] <aep> i can't solder them to a regular breakout
[08:58:07] <aep> too fatty fingers
[08:58:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> basically they print extra thick solder mask around the contact points.
[08:58:22] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then put solder on the pads for you.
[08:58:38] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you press the chip in place and heat the pins one at a time to melt them into the solder.
[08:58:51] <aep> yeh, seen the video. it looked trivial
[08:59:18] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I have some here.
[08:59:30] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it's what I used for my little foray into avr32
[09:00:39] <aep> nice. i want this with more channels: http://www.silabs.com/products/interface/usbtouart/Pages/usb-to-i2s-digital-audio-bridge.aspx
[09:00:43] <aep> USB to I2S
[09:01:28] <aep> maybe i'll use a crappy hub after all
[09:02:33] <Epsilon-Aurigae> use a good hub
[09:03:06] <aep> i mean, for now just a regular external one to figure out if this works at all
[09:03:16] <Phinxy> If i want to upgrade from my usbasp to something that can flash fuses, can you recommend something?
[09:03:26] <Epsilon-Aurigae> usbasp can do fuses.
[09:03:45] <Phinxy> thats right.. i meant the thing you flash when a chip is "broken"
[09:04:03] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that would be a parallel programmer or high voltage programmer, depending on the chip.
[09:04:12] <Epsilon-Aurigae> or a programmer with exte
[09:04:19] <Epsilon-Aurigae> with external clock source.
[09:04:24] <Phinxy> lets say fuses are flashed wrong
[09:04:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> depending on how badly it's broken.
[09:04:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> avr dragon should handle most everything...it does high voltage and parallel programming.
[09:05:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> again, depends on how they are broken as to what you need to do to fix them.
[09:05:17] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if you disable the reset pin then you need high voltage programming.
[09:05:21] <Phinxy> thoose are some words that i recall :) thanks ill check that out
[09:05:35] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if you just goofed the clock you can get away with just adding an external clock source.
[09:11:43] <twnqx`> Phinxy: i think you are referring to high voltage serial/parallel programming
[09:11:58] <twnqx`> i have an stk600 for such bricked chips
[09:14:18] <Phinxy> twnqx`, Epsilon-Aurigae, iirc it was the reset-pin which i accidently disabled. 15 bucks down the drain ;)
[09:14:28] <Phinxy> arent there any chineese copies on ebay?
[09:15:14] <carabia> go high voltage or go home
[09:16:25] <Phinxy> stk600 looks reasonable
[09:16:49] <aep> hm. i wonder if digikey sells to private customers
[09:17:11] <carabia> yes it does...
[09:17:15] <aep> awesome
[09:18:25] <carabia> usually i order at least $100 when i do because the taxation is wack
[09:18:39] <carabia> your mileage may vary
[09:19:21] <aep> ugh
[09:19:40] <aep> they're the only distributor for xmos besides farnell who only sells to businesses
[09:20:00] <carabia> yeah, can't find it out of retailers?
[09:20:21] <aep> nah
[09:21:03] <carabia> i'm just talking about how I have to pay pmuch the tax for the products to US and when it gets shipped, if the parcel gets caught in the customs (the limit for tax-free import is something ridiculous, a few tens of euros here) i have to pay the VAT (24% here) aswell...
[09:21:17] <carabia> limit for tax-free import outside of EU, that is
[09:21:33] <carabia> but chances are you don't live here so it's a diff. story most likely =D
[09:21:40] <aep> i live in the EU
[09:21:43] <aep> so yeah
[09:21:53] <carabia> yeah but the limits for tax-free imports outside EU vary
[09:22:03] <carabia> in countries...
[09:22:09] <aep> oh. you're _outside_ the EU
[09:22:17] <carabia> no, i'm inside EU
[09:22:22] <carabia> but digikey's in the US...
[09:22:24] <aep> right
[09:22:26] <aep> so horror
[09:22:34] <aep> import limit is 20Eur here
[09:22:49] <carabia> here, the customs don't necessarily check _your_ parcel
[09:22:56] <aep> unless its from china, because no one checks that. packages just say "gift $8 various crap"
[09:23:05] <carabia> yeah
[09:23:27] <aep> but i dont trust alibaba
[09:23:30] <carabia> digikey shipping costs are also high, so i suggest get a good bunch of stuff while you're at it :)
[09:23:43] <carabia> it's like a candy shop
[09:25:37] <carabia> someone here suggested that i should make a complaint to the customs because i shouldn't have to be responsible for the VAT on this end... But I am
[09:26:13] <aep> yes you are
[09:26:19] <aep> according to EU laws
[09:26:25] <carabia> yeah...
[09:26:44] <aep> i wouldnt mind the tax, but they make you go to a far away place and wait in line for hours
[09:26:52] <aep> its not like they have a paypal thing
[09:27:03] <carabia> well
[09:27:11] <carabia> fedex can do the customs clearance for you
[09:27:20] <carabia> they charge some extra, though
[09:27:25] <aep> not above some value
[09:27:38] <carabia> low or high?
[09:27:38] <aep> at least DHL in .de has a limit
[09:27:50] <aep> uh dunno how much it is. but not unreasonably low
[09:28:14] <carabia> fedex was more than happy to do a clearance for a book shipping of mine for approx €30, but i'm in finland though
[09:28:36] <aep> right here it works two stage: import tax and vat
[09:28:56] <carabia> yeah same, but here import taxes don't apply to electronics afaik
[09:29:00] <aep> below 20eur you pay nothing, and below some hundretwhatever you only pay VAT and then you can use the post office service
[09:29:26] <carabia> yeah... stupid shit
[09:30:31] <aep> i guess its supposed to help local suppliers
[09:30:37] <aep> except we dont have any
[09:30:39] <aep> :D
[09:31:00] <carabia> yeah, it is. because, EU HAS TO BE THE NEW US
[09:31:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: if you disable reset you can fix it with high voltage programming...
[09:31:32] <carabia> i prefer chinese imports, always nice to receive a 5 kg parcel written "$10 gift" on it
[09:31:48] <carabia> but, sometimes the motherf*cks open them up :(
[09:32:31] <carabia> quality is shaky at best though :)
[09:33:25] <aep> never had issues with chineese stuff. but i dont have any expectations
[09:33:47] <aep> what can possibly be wrong with some breadboards
[09:34:04] <carabia> last summer i got a lipo-pack with loose contacts and it shorted out on me
[09:35:58] <carabia> was a 2.2 ah 3s pack so it was no joke lol
[09:42:35] <megal0maniac_afk> Phinxy: RikusW makes a programmer/dev board which does HVPP (and a crap load of other stuff, including HV TPI)
[09:43:02] <megal0maniac_afk> I have two of them :) https://sites.google.com/site/megau2s
[09:44:20] <Phinxy> megal0maniac_afk i want one! Is it atmega32 only or can it do 128's ?
[09:44:52] <megal0maniac_afk> It can do every 8bit AVR ever made, 8bit and standard
[09:45:01] <megal0maniac_afk> *mega and standard
[09:45:25] * megal0maniac_afk just realised that his nick could be taken as a play on "atmega"
[09:45:26] <Epsilon-Aurigae> does it do xmega as well?
[09:45:45] <megal0maniac_afk> Epsilon-Aurigae: Yip. It has logic level translation so as to not kill it with 5V :P
[09:45:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> kewl.
[09:46:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if I ever go xmega I might have to look at it.
[09:46:40] <Phinxy> the hardware looks like an usbasp. whats the difference? no caps or anything
[09:46:45] <megal0maniac_afk> Uses LUFA for TPI and PDI, I submitted board drivers so it's officially LUFA supported. Not that it takes much, but it's one less thing to worry about
[09:47:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: usbasp is bitbanged usb on an avr...that has an avr with hardware usb.
[09:47:12] * megal0maniac_afk backspaces
[09:47:30] <megal0maniac_afk> And it's more of a dev board than a programmer, but it does all the programmer stuff
[09:48:12] <megal0maniac_afk> The programming tower :D http://i.imgur.com/TjHdMCol.jpg
[09:48:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> usbasp uses vUSB to bitbang usb...while it works, it doesn't work on all computers. I've had issues with vUSB on some notebooks.
[09:48:50] <megal0maniac_afk> (U2S + Level translator board + Programming pinout adapter)
[09:49:11] <megal0maniac_afk> Phinxy: This also has the advantage of working with Studio, should you wish
[09:49:54] <Epsilon-Aurigae> guessing Tom_itx's programmer does most all what that does except high voltage programming.
[09:50:38] <megal0maniac_afk> It's almost identical. If you didn't need HV, then I'd recommend Tom's. But this has an adapter board, and you can use it for other stuff. It's pretty handy for development
[09:50:55] <megal0maniac_afk> Even functions as a Altera USB Blaster for FPGA/CPLD
[09:51:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I have a dragon for high voltage...never had to use it though.
[09:51:15] <megal0maniac_afk> I'd call that beta, but it all works
[09:52:00] <Phinxy> Is high voltage slower/faster than regular flashing?
[09:52:25] <megal0maniac_afk> Phinxy: Not sure. But with the megas, it's parallel instead of serial
[09:52:33] <Epsilon-Aurigae> bout the same I would say...it just requires a slightly different interface.
[09:52:42] <carabia> does anyone know if android can work as a usb host?
[09:52:47] <Phinxy> megal0maniac_afk does this device work with AVR studios 6 debugging mode?
[09:52:51] <megal0maniac_afk> No
[09:52:59] <Epsilon-Aurigae> HVPP (parallel) for mega and HVSP (serial) for attiny
[09:52:59] <megal0maniac_afk> Only official Atmel tools will do that
[09:53:21] <Epsilon-Aurigae> carabia: some can, yes.
[09:53:34] <carabia> good
[09:53:35] <megal0maniac_afk> Only much older AVRs
[09:53:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> carabia: some have host and device on the same connector, some have a separate host port, some don't support it at all.
[09:53:48] <megal0maniac_afk> Like the mega32, with atmel studio 4
[09:54:04] <megal0maniac_afk> Epsilon-Aurigae: iirc, there is a difference between USB OTG and USB Host
[09:54:05] <carabia> I guess it's the "USB OTG"
[09:54:26] <Epsilon-Aurigae> megal0maniac_afk: some, yes...usb-otg is a mini-host...limited but functional.
[09:54:34] <carabia> I wonder if you can use a hub on the USB OTG
[09:54:39] <Epsilon-Aurigae> again, not all android devices support it.
[09:54:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> carabia: generally, no.
[09:54:48] <megal0maniac_afk> carabia: I've mounted an external harddrive with USB OTG, so for the purpose of this conversation, yes
[09:55:03] <carabia> yeah at least the S4 should support OTG out of the box
[09:55:25] <carabia> but if i can't hub it then it's bad news
[09:55:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> my android tablet has a real host port and a real device port which works for otg as well.
[09:55:45] <megal0maniac_afk> On my phone, if you pull the sense pin down with a 10K resistor, then it requires external power. Which means you can use a hub, charge the phone, power a harddrive, etc
[09:55:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> look at the usb-otg specifications.
[09:55:55] <carabia> yeah
[09:56:16] <megal0maniac_afk> And it's still a Sony Ericsson :)
[09:56:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I like my acer iconia tab.
[09:57:02] <Phinxy> megal0maniac_afk, are you supposed to plug in an external 5V source for the HV programming?
[09:57:35] <megal0maniac_afk> Phinxy: Nope. HV needs 12V, but the add-on board has a charge pump to provide that
[09:58:17] <Phinxy> megal0maniac_afk, ok. cool
[09:58:40] <carabia> apparently i could use an externally powered hub with this
[09:59:26] <carabia> cool. solves it then. i need a lot of space to store all my music so i can most likely use a dac and an external hdd with this thing. Cool
[09:59:57] <carabia> when i'm out of town. very nice
[10:01:10] <megal0maniac_afk> carabia: External dac might not work, or might require hacking. It depends on what the kernel supports. Not all devices support external storage either.
[10:01:17] <megal0maniac_afk> Point is, you'll want to test
[10:01:22] * megal0maniac_afk goes afk
[10:01:25] <carabia> megal0maniac_afk: the manufacturer has confirmed it
[10:01:31] <carabia> the dac i'll be getting
[10:01:41] <megal0maniac_afk> Which one?
[10:01:45] <carabia> a fiio e18
[10:01:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> megal0maniac_afk: thought you was afk!
[10:01:56] <carabia> budget amp, but i actually like fiio's dac chips
[10:02:42] <carabia> this one has a different chip than the previous ones though... But it's a budget portable dac+amp with a huge battery that can be used for charging so i consider it a win in any case
[10:02:53] <carabia> and i loathe the built-in dac of S4
[10:02:56] <megal0maniac_afk> Ooh, awesome
[10:03:01] <megal0maniac_afk> Epsilon-Aurigae: I am now!
[10:21:59] <aep> apparantly audiophiles are saying that the xmos usb to i2s bridge is the best sounding thing ever. now, i am baffled
[10:22:16] <aep> since when do digital circuits have any effect on audio quality
[10:22:44] <Tom_itx> sample rates?
[10:22:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> dunno.
[10:22:59] <aep> yeah, beyond sample rates that is. oh, hm, maybe this thing is just so fast that it can do alot
[10:24:12] <aep> 384kHz
[10:24:15] <Tom_itx> today's audiophools probably don't know what good sound is anyway
[10:24:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> give me my 8-track any day.
[10:24:57] <aep> maybe more kilohearts makes poeople happy. fine
[10:25:04] <Tom_itx> 24 track
[10:25:55] <Casper> aep: don't forget that audiophools also think that undersized pure gold wires sound better than coat hangers
[10:26:17] <aep> if they pay 4 times, why not
[10:26:42] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 700 dollar hdmi cables make your video look better too.
[10:26:49] <aep> apparantly a 384kHz sound interface costs a thousand euros
[10:27:06] <Casper> Epsilon-Aurigae: yeah, less noise in the image and crisper picture, not to forget better colors!
[10:27:13] <aep> the chip for that is 8euro. good market
[10:27:52] <aep> but according to some forum, you cant use via's on the pcb because they cause interference
[10:27:54] <aep> lol
[10:27:58] <aep> oh jesus
[10:28:02] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I can see that.
[10:28:10] * aep closes site and goes on with something useful
[10:28:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> analog is a bit pickier on some stuff like that.
[10:28:29] <aep> that was on an i2s psb
[10:28:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> once you go digital it doesn't matter.
[10:29:04] <aep> i'm no expert, but i'm pretty sure this is bullshit
[10:29:30] <aep> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/home/49-isolated-xmos-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2s-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-65uv-regulator.html
[10:29:36] <aep> 5) No Via in active circuit (via inductance always create jitter problem)
[10:29:50] <Epsilon-Aurigae> http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/apen-tube/art4-web.jpg
[10:29:54] <Epsilon-Aurigae> there.
[10:30:02] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the ultimate audiophile motherboard.
[10:30:07] <Fleck> help guys - confused: IN instruction for attiny9 is In form I/O Location, but for attiny13 the description is: In Port
[10:30:14] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: is this a fish bowl?
[10:30:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aep: no....motherboard with tube amplifier
[10:30:41] <Tom_itx> Fleck, the 9 only has 6 pins anyway
[10:30:41] <aep> it looks like there's fish in it
[10:30:41] <Casper> aep: all audiophool seems to not know about clock recovery and pll
[10:30:44] <Tom_itx> there is only one port
[10:30:58] <aep> Casper: is that important? should i read up on that?
[10:31:17] <aep> i'm trying to figure out whats important for this stuff, but these guys arent helping...
[10:31:43] <Fleck> Tom_itx: I mean - is IN the same instruction for att9 and att13?
[10:31:55] <Casper> and even if there is no recovery and all... the clock would always be delayed the same way
[10:32:00] <Tom_itx> i would think so
[10:32:05] <Casper> making the chip get a precise clock anyway
[10:32:07] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Fleck: yes....
[10:32:25] <aep> Casper: so this is about I2S bus clock?
[10:32:25] <Casper> who care if the clock is delayed by 1 picosecond...
[10:32:51] <aep> i didnt know they can be delayd, i thought this is why you have one clock for the whole circuit
[10:32:55] <Fleck> trying to port asm code from att9 to att13 :D thx Tom_itx, Epsilon-Aurigae
[10:33:20] <Casper> inductors does delay the signal, and also screw up it's shape a bit
[10:33:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Fleck: that Port thing is probably a #define somewhere.
[10:33:49] <Casper> if it become a problem, then it's a bad design anyway
[10:34:01] <Casper> but time to go eat... and clean the ice...
[10:34:01] <Casper> bbl
[10:34:22] <Tom_itx> Fleck, here's some attiny10 test asm to look over: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/tiny10/test/tn10_pwm_test.asm
[10:34:23] <Fleck> Epsilon-Aurigae: no it's in datasheet: IN Rd, P In Port Rd ← P, and for att9 in datasheet: IN Rd, A In from I/O Location Rd  I/O (A)
[10:34:48] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so substitute the port address for Port.
[10:35:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> read the avr instruction set document...it explains that..
[10:35:08] <Tom_itx> the 4 5 9 and 10 have limited registers
[10:35:11] <Fleck> and in asm code: in r16, SREG
[10:35:43] <Fleck> sreg is defined: SREG = 0x3F
[10:37:13] <Fleck> Tom_itx: ok, I'll take a look at your code
[10:37:39] <Fleck> not sure how it will help me :D but... I best learn from examples
[10:44:07] <Fleck> and again - LDS for att9 says Store Direct from SRAM, att13 says: Load Direct from SRAM :/
[10:44:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> from sram
[10:44:33] <Fleck> is LDS instruction the same for att9 and att13 ?
[10:44:34] <Phinxy> Is it possible to make a nokia lcd update faster? Its very slow right now :|
[10:44:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> load from sram and store in whaterer
[10:44:45] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it's wording.
[10:44:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yes it is the same.
[10:44:53] <Fleck> ok thx
[10:44:57] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: dunno..never
[10:45:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> used one.
[10:45:06] <Fleck> eng. is not my native lang. so... confusing!
[10:45:22] <Epsilon-Aurigae> look at the avr instruction set document.
[10:45:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> http://www.atmel.com/images/doc0856.pdf
[10:45:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it is the same for all attiny and atmega chips...only difference being the multiply commands on the atmega far as I know.
[10:45:58] <Fleck> ok
[10:50:03] <Phinxy> Epsilon-Aurigae, looks like its at least possible to get nice framerate http://devjoe.com/?p=265
[10:50:08] <Phinxy> prob my code then
[10:51:59] <Fleck> I am missing something, no clue what to, trying to adapt this code: https://github.com/dop3j0e/noiseplug/blob/master/avr/noiseplug.s made for att9, to att13, so far makes weird noises, but no chiptunes :( changed OSCCAL value so that att13 runs at around 8MHz... timer interrupt looks ok, 32KHz on the output but sounds like playing too fast
[10:53:55] <Tom_itx> why not get a t9 and try the code first
[10:54:01] <Tom_itx> who knows if it really works?
[10:54:07] <Fleck> it works :)
[10:54:22] <Fleck> http://vimeo.com/47380710
[10:54:28] <Tom_itx> besides, they're cute little chips
[10:55:18] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI2.jpg
[10:56:12] <Fleck> yeah
[10:56:28] <Fleck> they are not available at local stores, but maybe I'll order one :)
[10:56:34] <Fleck> err not one, few :D
[10:56:43] <Tom_itx> that's a 10 btw
[11:15:21] <aep> oh wow. ASF is horrible
[11:15:33] <aep> does this crap even compile for anyone?
[11:15:38] <Epsilon-Aurigae> in either incarnation
[11:15:45] <Epsilon-Aurigae> either atmel or mickysoft's versions.
[11:16:03] <aep> heh yeah
[11:16:30] <aep> so they use types they dont define anywhere
[11:16:32] <aep> how the ferk
[11:16:42] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I found it totally unusable.
[11:16:44] <Phinxy> is it possible to control a brushless motor with small "steps"?
[11:17:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: if you remove the motor control chip and treat it like a stepper, yeah.
[11:17:04] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: any alternatives?
[11:17:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aep: depends on what part of it you were wanting to use.
[11:17:55] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I pretty much have written my own code for most everything I do with microcontrollers, with the exception of the usb and ethernet stacks.
[11:18:03] <aep> yeah i need a usb stack
[11:18:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> lufa
[11:18:18] <aep> no good for avr32
[11:18:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then no clue.
[11:18:46] <aep> bah. this isnt any better than PIC
[11:25:11] <aep> werf. i found it
[11:25:26] <aep> they have a demo for the uc3-a3 inside asf that actually compiles
[11:26:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> well, if programming was easy everybody would do it.
[11:26:36] <aep> everyone does it
[11:26:39] <aep> at least for PC
[11:26:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> script kiddies.
[11:26:48] <aep> school kids can make websites
[11:26:57] <aep> not even bad ones
[11:27:34] <aep> oh great. now i have an ELF file
[11:27:38] <aep> what do i want with this
[11:27:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> upload it to the avr32.
[11:27:58] <aep> i thought it wants hex.
[11:28:08] <aep> ah, that was easy. never mind
[11:28:13] <aep> just objcopy
[11:42:23] <aep> well. cool. even this dfu thing works
[11:42:31] <vectory> RikusW: hi
[11:42:32] <aep> lucky day
[11:42:40] <RikusW> hi
[11:43:51] <vectory> im soldering smd leds atm, had to think of you and the 100 boards :)
[11:44:08] <RikusW> heh
[11:44:23] <RikusW> be careful of too much heat, it can damage the smd leds
[11:44:47] <RikusW> I did break one led....
[11:45:01] <vectory> as long as i can hold its ok
[11:45:07] <RikusW> due to too much heat or too long
[11:45:15] <RikusW> *for
[11:46:19] <RikusW> you do have flux right ?
[11:46:31] <vectory> ye
[11:47:36] <vectory> takes me ~20 minutes per joint, still
[11:48:27] <RikusW> what ?!
[11:48:37] <RikusW> should be 20sec
[11:48:40] <RikusW> or less
[11:48:54] <RikusW> per led ?
[11:49:50] <vectory> i have 100 leds here, dont wanna sit here for 50 hours
[11:49:55] <RikusW> basically I flux the led and pcb, apply some solder to the tip, position the led, and just touch both sides
[11:50:12] <RikusW> do you have liquid flux ?
[11:50:26] <vectory> the touching is difficult, cause the led isnt fixed
[11:50:38] <RikusW> do you have tweezers ?
[11:50:38] <vectory> i have a flux pen :P
[11:50:44] <vectory> yes
[11:50:59] <vectory> but only two hands
[11:51:03] <RikusW> I simply dipped the led into a bottle cap with some flux in it
[11:51:43] <RikusW> are you soldering them to a pcb ?
[11:52:57] <vectory> no, onto wires. a metal core pcb would be neat, but im on a budget
[11:53:40] <RikusW> led strip ?
[11:53:44] <RikusW> or cube ?
[11:54:04] <vectory> not a strip
[11:56:10] <vectory> xqdawt-00...00-hde5. no mention of the code in the ds could be anything from 100-200 lm :S
[11:56:54] <aep> so how do i use usart from ASF with just two pins? the thing wants to talk rs232
[11:57:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> rs232 is usually 2 pins.
[11:57:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> tx and rx
[11:57:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> nobody uses cts and rts and dtr and all these days.
[11:57:41] <vectory> with a lvl translator ic, max323 or whatsit
[11:57:49] <aep> ah.
[11:57:57] <aep> i didnt know its still called rs232 then
[11:58:31] <Epsilon-Aurigae> technically rs232 is different voltage levels than ttl.
[11:58:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so if you wanted to talk to a serial port on a pc you would neec a max232 or similar level shifter chip.
[11:59:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> device to device, if they are both 3.3V or both 5V then you can hook them up straight tx to rx and versa visa.
[12:00:10] <RikusW> I connected 2v8 and 3v3 using only resistors
[12:00:38] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you can do similar with 3.3 to 5 too
[12:01:55] <Epsilon-Aurigae> real rs232, however, is based around +/- 12V...give or take a couple of volts.
[12:02:09] <vectory> RikusW: and you did rs232 through usb/cdc ... using the usart?
[12:02:12] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I've seen some as high as 18 and as low as 10
[12:02:37] <RikusW> vectory: mode 84 of U2S yes
[12:02:53] <RikusW> vectory: iirc it should be on your version of the firmware
[12:03:30] <RikusW> I did fix a bug in the jtag ice code recently...
[12:03:45] <RikusW> (corruption of r28 in context saving code...)
[12:03:57] <aep> darn. cant even get the usart working
[12:04:10] <vectory> RikusW: probably, the demo fw was serial communication
[12:04:33] <vectory> RikusW: i saw some updates on the site
[12:04:33] <aep> does any of this look obviously wrong? http://npaste.de/p/BVz
[12:05:37] <RikusW> vectory: I could send you the newest hex file, you'll need another programmer to put it on though
[12:06:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aep: depends on what chip it is targed to.
[12:06:43] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: uc3_a3 (AT32UC3A3256)
[12:06:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then I dunno.
[12:07:16] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it's missing the avr/io.h include if it is for an 8bit avr
[12:07:35] <aep> nah, 32
[12:07:45] <aep> it gets the whole pin stuff from gpio.h
[12:08:02] <aep> this is asf, not bare metal
[12:09:21] <vectory> RikusW: i find the whole gnu toolchan terrible to use so i plan to stay away from debugging for now and do that with avr dragon and atmel studio in class
[12:09:41] <RikusW> ok
[12:10:10] <RikusW> I still use AS4 with the U2S ice
[12:10:34] <vectory> its just so much nicer with a gui instead of gnu db
[12:11:00] <vectory> for starters anyway
[12:11:05] <RikusW> indeed
[12:11:11] <RikusW> I don't like gdb much either
[12:11:52] <RikusW> gui + optional scripting / commandline would be ok
[12:12:22] * aep stays away of hours of trying to get anhything compiling in atmel studio
[12:15:21] <vectory> its gcc either way, though, isnt it
[12:15:42] <Fleck> st Z+, r16 << whats hapening here?
[12:16:22] <vectory> Fleck: *(Z++)=r16
[12:16:34] <vectory> clear?
[12:17:58] <vectory> in english: save val of r16 in ram at adress that is saved in Z and increment the adress afterwards
[12:18:18] <Fleck> r16 is cleared before
[12:19:29] <vectory> if thats from the .init section, thats normal
[12:21:06] <vectory> wasnt there a special zero register in the c abi, though? there is in msp430, im sure
[12:24:37] <Fleck> vectory: https://github.com/dop3j0e/noiseplug/blob/master/avr/noiseplug.s << vectors NULL jumps to main_count then clear_sram at line 70
[12:25:12] <Fleck> *cont
[12:30:26] <Fleck> the codes doesn't make sense to me :D
[12:31:20] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what part?
[12:31:43] <Fleck> at line 70
[12:32:02] <vectory> Fleck: well its not called .init but thats what i ment. the name clear_sram says it all
[12:32:05] <Epsilon-Aurigae> line 70 is just a label...it doesn't actually compile as anything.
[12:32:22] <Fleck> Epsilon-Aurigae: right :D
[12:32:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the next 3 lines run through sram and clear it...it's a loop.
[12:33:11] <vectory> no line numbers on the mobile version
[12:33:20] <vectory> whats sbrs?
[12:33:43] <Fleck> Skip if Bit in Register is Set
[12:35:01] <Fleck> sram begins at 0x40 and ends at 0x5F, r16 at the begining is clr r16 aka cleared
[12:35:38] <Fleck> so - Z is set to 1, then what? r16 is still 0, and loop begins again
[12:35:46] <Fleck> isn't that a forever loop?
[12:36:21] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what is r30 on that particular chip?
[12:36:33] <Fleck> ZL
[12:36:42] <RikusW> sbrs = skip bit registers set
[12:38:30] <Fleck> Epsilon-Aurigae: http://im9.eu/picture/oi2568
[12:39:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so it breaks out of the loop when Z register low byte bit 5 gets set....
[12:40:43] <Epsilon-Aurigae> or when Z gets set to 32.
[12:43:49] <Fleck> :/
[12:48:50] <vectory> ah, thats not really pwm, thats a dco
[12:49:01] <Fleck> dco?
[12:49:56] <vectory> ah not dco, direct digital synth. (dds)
[12:50:14] <vectory> dco=digital controled oscilator
[12:50:49] <vectory> and it generates only square waves, i think
[12:51:23] <vectory> "If I had an accumulator that wraps after 16K, how much would I have to add per sample to make it wrap every N samples?"
[12:52:24] <Tachyon`> (n-samplesize)/16384?
[12:52:43] <Fleck> yeah but that's not the q. :D
[12:52:56] <vectory> i wrote a small paper what is then?
[12:53:09] <vectory> *what is then?
[12:53:31] <vectory> *i wrote a small paper on dds for class, in german
[12:53:37] <Fleck> how line 70 to 73 works
[12:53:45] <Fleck> I can't get it
[12:54:09] <Epsilon-Aurigae> r16 is 0 to start, yes?
[12:54:16] <Fleck> yep
[12:54:19] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what is z set to to start?
[12:54:28] <Fleck> no clue
[12:54:48] <Epsilon-Aurigae> r31 is 0
[12:54:53] <Epsilon-Aurigae> r30 is 0x40
[12:55:17] <Fleck> yeah
[12:55:20] <Fleck> sorr
[12:55:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so it starts counting memory at 0x40
[12:56:10] <Epsilon-Aurigae> st Z+, r16...this sets the memory pointed to by Z to 0
[12:56:16] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it also increments Z
[12:56:29] <Fleck> ohh
[12:56:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> sbrs line checks bit 5 of Z...if it is set then it jumps past the rjump
[12:56:37] <Fleck> now it makes sense!
[12:56:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> rjump cycles back to the st.
[12:56:51] <Epsilon-Aurigae> so it counts 32 bytes starting at 0x40
[12:56:56] <Fleck> (Z) is... is location
[12:57:01] <Fleck> as pointer
[12:57:14] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Z is a 32bit pointer that is being used to point to the memory locations.
[12:57:23] <Fleck> 16
[12:57:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> yeah.
[12:57:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> sorry
[12:57:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 16bit pointer.
[12:57:52] <aep> bah, ttl just wont work on this thing. is it possible that USART doesnt actually send anything if you dont have an external clock? or how does this work?
[12:57:54] <Fleck> ok thx Epsilon-Aurigae, this makes sense then! :)
[12:58:13] <Fleck> and I need to start from 0x60 for att13
[12:58:38] <Fleck> sram for att9 starts at 0x40, 0x60 for att13
[13:01:01] <vectory> wait, now i am confused
[13:01:09] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that's nice.
[13:01:45] <vectory> Z=0x40; while(~(Z&(1<<5)) { ram[Z] = 0; Z++; }, yes?
[13:02:39] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if you say so.
[13:02:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> looks right.
[13:04:39] <vectory> essentially the same as while(Z<0x60). oh, ok
[13:05:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it's all a matter of knowing what the registers are and what the commands do.....I recommend reading the avr instruction set pdf...it knows all and tells all.
[13:06:15] <Fleck> and I need to do this in different way, cause bit 5 doesn't work here ;D
[13:06:35] <Fleck> I start from 0x60 << and it's set! :D to 0x9F
[13:07:12] <Phinxy> woopie 751s to read flash memory on atmega1284p
[13:07:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 751 seconds?
[13:07:31] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that is a long time.
[13:08:35] <Phinxy> Epsilon-Aurigae, how long time does it take for you approx?
[13:08:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> dunno..never tried.
[13:08:54] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that just seems like a very long time.
[13:09:17] <Phinxy> maybe the usbasp is limiting the speed
[13:09:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> oh, yeah.
[13:09:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> definitely.
[13:09:32] <Epsilon-Aurigae> usbasp is very slow.
[13:09:35] <Phinxy> doesnt matter tough. writing takes about 15-20s for my apps
[13:10:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if I felt up to it I would go down to the dungeon and build something.
[13:12:38] <Phinxy> Epsilon-Aurigae, do you have lots of resources such as inputs, range meters, lcd's down there?
[13:12:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> I have piles of stuff down there.
[13:13:06] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that's where my electronics workshop is.
[13:13:08] <Fleck> offtopic: http://mmajunkie.com/2013/12/anderson-silva-remains-in-hospital-after-successful-surgery-on-broken-leg/
[13:13:47] <Epsilon-Aurigae> no clue who that is.
[13:14:42] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Phinxy: I've been collecting bits and pieces and stuff for many many years.
[13:15:12] <Phinxy> Epsilon-Aurigae, whats your favorite piece?
[13:15:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> hmm.
[13:15:50] <Epsilon-Aurigae> probably the stack of 68000 dev boards I got for one dollar each.
[13:16:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> real old 64 pin dip package 68000 chips
[13:17:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> oh man..what a depressing movie...gotta love Fahrenheit 451...Bradbury was such an awesome writer.
[13:18:11] <Epsilon-Aurigae> It is because of that book that I will never forget the ignition temperature of paper.
[13:24:05] <aep> allright, i think i need a logic analyzer to get the uart working. heh
[13:28:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what do you have the thing connected to?
[13:29:00] <aep> an ftdi ttl
[13:29:11] <aep> pretty sure its working, i double checked it
[13:29:15] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and you have it connected TX to RX and RX to TX?
[13:29:24] <aep> i tried both ways
[13:29:26] <Tom_itx> what chip?
[13:29:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and your comms speeds are the same?
[13:29:39] <aep> Tom_itx: AT32UC3A3256
[13:29:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> 9600/8-n-1
[13:29:45] <aep> yeah speed is the same
[13:30:10] <aep> not 100% sure about the other stuff. i think 8n1 is the default on linux hosts is it?
[13:30:21] <Tom_itx> probably
[13:30:27] <Epsilon-Aurigae> what I like to do is setup a repeater on the chip...receive byte, retransmit byte, repeat ad infinitum.
[13:30:46] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then send data and see if I get it back.
[13:30:57] <aep> yep i'll try that with gpio now. since with uart it wont work
[13:31:02] <aep> maybe the lib is broken
[13:33:23] <aep> or maybe i misunderstand what a usart is (vs uart) ?
[13:33:31] <aep> this thing has no uart, only usart
[13:33:31] <Epsilon-Aurigae> S
[13:33:40] <aep> i was thinking its the same thing plus some stuff i dont use anyway
[13:33:49] <Epsilon-Aurigae> it does synchronous and asynchronous comms.
[13:34:08] <aep> yeah but default should be same as uart right?
[13:34:13] <aep> its not waiting for a clock or something
[13:34:30] <Epsilon-Aurigae> there is no clock pulse, no...the two ends must talk the same speed or they won't talk.
[13:34:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> in your code, flash an LED when you have a byte received.
[13:34:55] <aep> yep doing
[13:34:56] <Epsilon-Aurigae> see if anything is coming in.
[13:35:08] <Epsilon-Aurigae> or better yet, put that byte on an 8bit output port with 8 LEDs.
[13:35:10] <aep> actually, nothing is coming in. if i connect RX the board wont boot
[13:35:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> sounds like someone has a hardware issue.
[13:35:36] <Epsilon-Aurigae> you are connecting ground as well as rx and tx, yes?
[13:36:01] <aep> yeah
[13:36:21] <aep> the ftdi apparantly has a constant +3V on TX
[13:36:25] <aep> maybe its unhappy about that
[13:36:33] <Epsilon-Aurigae> your board, the usart pins are ttl, yes?
[13:36:43] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that sounds like a broken ftdi device.
[13:37:11] <aep> they're directly connected to the chip, and i kinda expect that to be ttl
[13:37:13] <Epsilon-Aurigae> connect tx and rx on the ftdi device, open a terminal and connect to the serial port and see if you get back what you send..
[13:37:37] <Epsilon-Aurigae> actually, that chip is gonna be 3.3V, not full TTL....is that ftdi device a 3.3V or 5V unit?
[13:37:37] <aep> yep the ftdi works fine
[13:38:04] <aep> hm. it has +5V on an extra red line, but i just never connect that. it works fine with avr8
[13:38:17] <Epsilon-Aurigae> avr8 running at 5V or 3.3V?
[13:38:23] <aep> oh now it works fine with all pins connected
[13:38:28] <aep> 3 i think
[13:38:32] <vectory> the code you posted before has 57000 baud conf'd
[13:38:41] <aep> yeah, that bad?
[13:38:53] <aep> i guess i could try 9600
[13:39:01] <Epsilon-Aurigae> well, if your computer isn't set to 57000 then they won't talk.
[13:39:20] <aep> nah
[13:39:25] <vectory> 57600, even
[13:39:42] <aep> it was all equal all the time
[13:39:57] <aep> huh. so this is odd. i just disconnected power from the avr and left the ftdi
[13:40:03] <aep> now all the leds on the board are flickering
[13:40:04] <vectory> might be too fast anyway, for the ftdi or sth?
[13:40:31] <aep> this looks unhealthy
[13:41:00] <aep> i'll try a different one
[13:41:37] * vectory thinks "undefined behaviour"
[13:42:39] <aep> apparantly its more happy with an arduino
[13:43:05] <aep> still no data. meh
[13:49:33] <aep> so gpio doesnt work either
[13:49:43] <aep> i begin to feel like the pin labeling is wrong
[13:49:52] <Tom_itx> is the 3.3v enough to flip the FTDI?
[13:50:06] <aep> yes
[13:50:34] <aep> also i set an led to the value of the rx pin now
[13:51:14] <aep> nothing happens when i put gnd or vcc on the pin
[13:51:18] <aep> pretty sure its just wrong
[13:53:30] <aep> ah got it. have to enable it as gpio input of course. duh
[13:53:38] <aep> so the pin works fine
[13:54:32] <Jan-> is it just that the AVR A/D converter is a bit noisy, or is it really pointless trying to read a normal, nothing-special pot at 10 bit?
[13:59:43] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the ADCC needs filtering for it to work stable.
[14:00:01] <Jan-> in software or hardware?
[14:00:21] <Jan-> there's obviously a limit to what you can do in software
[14:00:28] <Epsilon-Aurigae> hardware...filter power
[14:00:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if your power is not super duper smooth then the ADC won't be stable.
[14:01:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> the ADC has a separate power input.
[14:01:16] <Jan-> Even so would you not expect it to twitch slightly
[14:01:44] <Epsilon-Aurigae> how are you powering the device?
[14:01:55] <Jan-> USB, which obviously isn't going to be sparkly clean
[14:02:09] <Epsilon-Aurigae> definitely not.
[14:02:23] <Epsilon-Aurigae> do you have a regulator between the USB and the AVR?
[14:02:32] <Jan-> I'm not sure. It's an arduino.
[14:02:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> and do you have a filter and bypass capacitor by the ADC power input?
[14:02:43] <Jan-> there's a reg on it but I'm not sure what the power path is.
[14:02:51] <Epsilon-Aurigae> then can't help you.
[14:03:06] <Jan-> there's no special bypassing for the ADC, as far as I can tell.
[14:03:09] <Epsilon-Aurigae> most likely the power is crap feeding into the ADC power.
[14:03:25] <Epsilon-Aurigae> which will cause that thing to fluxuate horribly.
[14:04:00] <Jan-> it's not *that* bad
[14:04:06] <Jan-> I can make it acceptable in software
[14:04:17] <Jan-> but obviously that implies a tiny bit of filtering lag
[14:05:07] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ardweeny boards vary in their power filtering and stability.
[14:05:13] <Jan-> I'm sure.
[14:05:26] <Jan-> These were just a cheap way of getting an AVR board that we could use via USB.
[14:05:35] <Jan-> Although frankly the arduino lib is pretty convenient :D
[14:05:53] <Tachyon`> they're bloody slow
[14:06:05] <Jan-> it seems to make it quite slow to start up
[14:06:39] <Tachyon`> it's best to use the ports directly rather than the pin commands if you don't want a huge speed penalty
[14:06:48] <Tachyon`> as I discovered to my cost recently -.o
[14:06:51] <Jan-> I'm just using analogRead()
[14:06:56] <Tachyon`> basic interpreter I'm writing
[14:07:01] <Jan-> I might translate it all back into raw AVR, but it's a bit of a fag
[14:07:10] <Tachyon`> pin commands, about 3000 pwm operations per second
[14:07:22] <Tachyon`> port commands, over 9000 operations per second
[14:07:27] <Tachyon`> it really makes that much difference
[14:07:31] <aep> why does this not enable pull-down? does that only work on some pins? gpio_configure_pin(USART_RXD_PIN, (GPIO_DIR_INPUT | GPIO_PULL_DOWN));
[14:07:39] <aep> the pin is apparantly floating...
[14:07:58] <Epsilon-Aurigae> aep: did you look at the datasheet to see if those pins support pulldown?
[14:08:01] <Jan-> Tachyon`: I'm afraid my avr-fu is weak, or at least not used for a while
[14:08:06] <Tom_itx> i don't rely on internal pull resistors
[14:08:11] <Tachyon`> I'm only just starting with teh arduino, hence my error, lol
[14:08:18] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: no, i was blindly assuming that the USART pin would do that, because wtf
[14:08:36] <Epsilon-Aurigae> RTFD!
[14:08:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> don't assume anything.
[14:08:43] <aep> yeah, but... yeah
[14:08:52] <Epsilon-Aurigae> if it's not in the datasheet, it's not on the chip.
[14:09:18] <Tom_itx> and always always remember.... data sheets have no errors in them!
[14:09:23] <Tachyon`> you might want to cast an eye over http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/PortManipulation
[14:09:24] <Epsilon-Aurigae> hehe.
[14:09:27] <dmsl> can SAM-ICE be able to program a processor?
[14:09:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> also check erratta.
[14:10:10] <Jan-> Tachyon` when you said they're slow, what were you referring to
[14:10:29] <Epsilon-Aurigae> Jan-: not fast, slow...lots of crap overhead slowing the thing down.
[14:10:31] <Tachyon`> the conversion from arduino pin number to actual avr port accesses is rather slow
[14:10:37] <Jan-> oh yeah.
[14:10:46] <Tachyon`> if you're familiar with OR/AND operations, use the ports, lol
[14:10:57] <Tachyon`> see link
[14:11:16] <Jan-> you'd have thought they could have arranged for that to compile out
[14:11:20] <Jan-> or at least preprocess out
[14:11:30] <Epsilon-Aurigae> hell, it's compiled IN.
[14:11:41] <Epsilon-Aurigae> that whole Wiring interface is horrid.
[14:12:03] <Phinxy> Hm. could i just install arduino ide for studio 6 and use it without arduino? and still get the nice shorthand code for writing bits etc more easily?
[14:12:29] <aep> Epsilon-Aurigae: the datasheet doesnt even document that..
[14:12:41] <aep> so basically the entire chip has no pull downs?
[14:12:49] <aep> weird
[14:14:00] <Epsilon-Aurigae> ok..all this thinking is making my head hurt...so I'm gonna go watch startrek...enjoy.
[14:14:26] <vectory> aep: are you using avr-ware or w/e they call the support lib?
[14:14:52] <aep> vectory: afs yes
[14:15:01] <vectory> yes that
[14:15:21] <vectory> well, should be easy to find an example
[14:15:36] <aep> sure. the example for that exact board and use case doesnt work
[14:15:38] <aep> so yeah
[14:15:54] <vectory> wonder why :?
[14:16:23] <aep> well it doesnt document how they tested it
[14:17:26] <vectory> yeah, but the general setup routine should ve included the pull up initialization
[14:17:54] <aep> yup
[14:18:14] <aep> err wait what?
[14:19:59] <vectory> well the general routine should be the same, independant of test setup
[14:20:39] <aep> i'm not sure what you're saying
[14:21:57] <vectory> i say, look at the code to see if you are missing anything else that would prevent the pullup from working
[14:22:14] <aep> its not my code. this is the exact example from avr
[14:22:22] <vectory> i guess, not sure. i dont like asf anyway because Macros
[14:22:33] <aep> erm pull-up?
[14:22:38] <aep> shouldnt it be pull-down?
[14:22:53] <aep> for TTL serial
[14:22:57] <vectory> wasnt sure
[14:23:18] <vectory> thought it only had one kind
[14:23:25] <aep> oh
[14:23:30] <aep> that would explain it
[14:23:51] <vectory> nvm me, i only know mega8
[14:23:56] <vectory> not avr32
[14:24:10] <Tom_itx> did you try in #avr32?
[14:24:17] <Tom_itx> slow to respond
[14:24:28] <aep> ah, thanks
[14:24:44] <aep> oh wow thats as empty as the internet
[14:24:58] <aep> so basically just no one is using avr32's ? :D
[14:25:05] <Tom_itx> not many
[14:25:16] <Tom_itx> some of those worked at atmel
[14:25:29] <Tom_itx> i haven't been there in a long time though
[14:26:13] <Jan-> Tom_itx: I'm afraid I have forsaken the ISP programmer you sold me and gone over to the dark side :/
[14:26:21] * Jan- shuffles nervously from foot to foot
[14:27:16] <Tom_itx> meh, some just can't handle it
[14:27:36] <Jan-> I just liked analogRead(n) more than 15 lines of alphabetti spaghetti.
[14:27:37] <Jan-> I'm sorry :(
[14:27:46] * Jan- is a bad person
[14:29:10] <Phinxy> can i test a whiteboards/breadboards capacitance somehow?
[14:29:15] <vectory> Jan-: the u2s (programmer) from rikusw can load sketches and still i dont use it
[14:29:24] <Phinxy> i got 2 different brands and i wanna know which one is the better
[14:29:31] * vectory feels guilty
[14:29:56] <Tom_itx> Phinxy, none of them are very good
[14:31:03] <vectory> high precission lcr meters exist
[14:32:07] <Jan-> this angle measuring thing is quite hard.
[14:32:21] <Jan-> I guess it could also be an optical encoder with a nice large diameter wheel.
[14:32:48] <Jan-> especially if it had several rings of slots at different phases, if you see what I mean
[14:33:58] <Tom_itx> resolver
[14:34:15] <Tom_itx> some have tens of thousands ticks per rev
[14:34:22] <Jan-> $$$?
[14:34:31] <Tom_itx> WTF do you expect?
[14:34:38] <vectory> Jan-: those have maybe 24 slots per revolution, no?
[14:34:48] <vectory> oh
[14:35:04] <Jan-> Tom_itx: I expect $$$$$$, but I thought they might only be $$$ :)
[14:35:13] <Tom_itx> vectory i have 4096 count encoders as well
[14:35:24] <Jan-> vectory: the ones on old style mice have low resolution
[14:35:33] <Jan-> but you could make one say 3" in diameter, with say four concentric rings.
[14:35:46] <vectory> ye, im thinking "cheap"
[14:36:24] <Jan-> it's hard to beat a pot for cheap
[14:36:39] <Jan-> I'm playing with just a pot connected to an AVR a/d
[14:36:55] <Jan-> it has probably 9 usable bits of resolution around its 270 degrees, give or take a bit of software filtering.
[14:36:58] <Tom_itx> 1024 count
[14:37:13] <Jan-> eh, yeah, but you have to filter like crazy to discern the LSB
[14:37:16] <vectory> how about dehnmessstreifen
[14:37:22] <Jan-> and that makes it delay-y
[14:37:57] <vectory> a.ka. strain gauge
[14:38:43] <Jan-> I can filter enough to get all 10 bits
[14:38:51] <Jan-> but I have to filter over about 64 samples
[14:39:14] <Jan-> and that introduces way too much delay
[14:39:40] <Jan-> also I can noise gate it when it appears to be static, to stop it chattering, but obviously then you can't ever have a totally smooth start to a movement.
[14:39:43] <Jan-> if you see what I mean
[14:40:21] <vectory> for regulatory feedback
[14:40:25] <vectory> i take it
[14:40:36] <Jan-> remote focus control for movie cameras.
[14:41:28] <vectory> Jan-: what was it with the l.e.d. high bay light you were looking to build? you said it was not feasable
[14:41:37] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/motors/focusring11.jpg
[14:41:44] <Tom_itx> focus ring for medical equipment
[14:41:46] <vectory> do you mean ready aviable ones are cheaper?
[14:41:55] <Tom_itx> 2 motors, 2 encoders
[14:42:19] <Jan-> vectory: well it's feasible.
[14:42:36] <Jan-> well, not so much cheaper as "not worth it to build for $n"
[14:43:01] <Jan-> basically the only commercially available heatsinks in anything like a workable form factor are the ones they actually use. So it's not worth trying to build.
[14:43:21] <Jan-> Tom_itx: I can't see the picture, but I know roughly what you mean.
[14:43:32] <aep> mystery solved. my ftdi is 5V, although it says 3V on the fricking package. how do i convert this to 3?
[14:44:08] <Tom_itx> subtract 2 v
[14:44:10] * vectory is already trying to write in manner that a screen reader can parse it
[14:44:24] <vectory> aep: oh wow
[14:44:27] <Jan-> no need vectory, thanks though :)
[14:44:36] <Tom_itx> yeah i forgot about that
[14:45:28] <Jan-> Tom_itx: forgetting about it is far from the worst thing you could do.
[14:45:39] <Jan-> I forget about it all the time. :)
[14:46:57] <Jan-> the thing about this focus issue is that I'm pretty sure they do use just pots.
[14:47:01] <Jan-> I don't think they're clever encoders.
[14:47:10] <Jan-> I'm not sure if better hardware would help.
[14:47:18] <Jan-> or if a 270-degree pot will never really resolve 1024 positions.
[14:51:06] <Jan-> is there some way I can get a rough idea of how loaded down the AVR's CPU is?
[14:51:44] <Jan-> it's tricky because I'm using the arduino delay() which will just soak a load of time.
[14:52:00] <vectory> Jan-: about the formfactor, i expect a radial heat sink?
[14:52:19] <Jan-> vectory: sort of tubular, with fins running along the outer axis of the tube. Do a google search for "led high bay"
[14:52:29] <Jan-> some of them had boxy folded-metal heatsinks too
[14:52:44] <Jan-> just... big, y'know. 200W of LED is probably 80-100W of heat.
[14:53:13] <vectory> well i ordered square ones with fins on the back, talking about 35W though
[14:53:52] <Jan-> 35w is of dubious usefulness for movie work
[14:53:59] <Jan-> not useless, but a special case
[14:56:18] <vectory> my design would be feasible in terms of cost, if i were to order high quantity
[14:56:28] <Jan-> what does it do
[14:57:06] <vectory> well not much
[14:57:39] <vectory> just put out a nice spectrum at reasonable efficiacy
[14:58:20] <Jan-> nice spectrum is the issue.
[14:58:37] <vectory> idd
[14:58:43] <Jan-> idd?
[14:58:50] <vectory> indeed
[14:58:56] <vectory> sry ;)
[14:59:11] <Jan-> effectively no LED really has a "nice spectrum"
[14:59:20] <Jan-> some lights using groups of different LEDs have had a reasonable spectrum.
[15:01:53] <vectory> still gotta read some papers regarding spectrum, but i was so keen that i just ordered
[15:03:08] <Jan-> depends who you want to make happy
[15:03:12] <Jan-> LEDs are ok for people's houses
[15:03:26] <Jan-> making a director of photography on a movie happy is another matter
[15:04:16] <vectory> oh, you want it configurable on the flick of a switch i take it
[15:04:42] <Jan-> damn
[15:04:45] <Jan-> what did you say?
[15:04:50] <vectory> oh, you want it configurable on the flick of a switch i take it
[15:05:49] <Jan-> configurable how
[15:06:01] <vectory> the color
[15:06:14] <Jan-> ehh, well, "want" and "recognise can have" is a different thing
[15:06:32] <Jan-> the ultimate answer is no, because you can't really do that from an engineering perspective without compromising the color rendering.
[15:06:59] <Jan-> the only electronics you might conceivably want is maybe DMX-512 control, and maybe video-synced strobing.
[15:12:18] <Jan-> hmm, my main loop is running at 287hz.
[15:20:48] <Jan-> OK, I'm reading about gray codes, and my head hurts.
[15:25:01] <Jan-> christ on a bike, serial.println is slow!
[15:51:40] <vectory> gray code doesnt strike me as confusing, just how he would come up with the sequence
[15:55:31] <inkjetunito> try :syn on
[16:07:35] <Jan-> vectory: probably by fiddling about till he made it work manually, then just working out the math that described it.
[16:16:20] <vectory> thats how i'd do, though the other way around is more elegant
[19:15:04] <clixxIO> hello, has anybody used tinysafeboot on attiny? http://www.jtxp.org/tech/tinysafeboot_en.htm#firmware
[19:18:30] <Epsilon-Aurigae> not I, but it looks interesting.
[19:46:37] <abcminiuser> Well I think the HEX classifier is about as good as it's going to get for now
[20:02:01] <vectory> is that eadible?
[20:06:47] <vectory> oh, intel hex syntax hilighter. wut?
[20:12:31] <clixxIO> good morning hackvana
[20:16:54] <jadew> hey Casper, so what do you have to say about the 1000Z so far?
[20:24:59] <abcminiuser> For AS 6.1
[20:27:54] <vectory> abcminiuser: im just a bit lost on the usecase
[20:28:19] <abcminiuser> Because science
[20:28:24] <abcminiuser> Also it shows the ASCII data
[20:30:24] <abcminiuser> http://fourwalledcubicle.com/files/vsix/HEXClassifier.vsix
[20:44:24] <vectory> LjžCµI ŠŠHEXClassifier.dll ¢( MZÿÿ ... so, i cant test that on mobile
[22:23:03] <abcminiuser> vectory, ... no
[22:27:57] <vectory> :)
[22:28:25] <vectory> i should go do sth usefull
[22:39:58] <Casper> jadew: nice unit :D