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[09:36:30] <beaky> hello
[12:19:17] <OndraSter> so I did solve my maths problem yesterday
[12:19:22] <OndraSter> it ended up being ridiculously easy
[12:21:21] <OndraSter> but - now I have a different one :(
[12:21:33] <OndraSter> 1/(x^4*(x^6 + 1))
[12:21:49] <OndraSter> hint I was given is "multiply it by x^2/x^2"
[12:22:26] <specing> Hint you were not given: wolfram alpha
[12:23:34] <OndraSter> :D
[12:23:35] <OndraSter> yes
[12:23:37] <OndraSter> I used that one
[12:23:45] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/6qhOQv
[12:23:46] <OndraSter> there
[12:24:05] <megal0maniac_afk> Oh integration?
[12:24:10] <OndraSter> how did it get the second half of the fractionals - no idea (ok, it is split the rest of the crap in the bottom)
[12:24:38] <OndraSter> yes, that, megal0maniac_afk
[12:24:52] <megal0maniac> I smell long division
[12:25:05] <OndraSter> yes
[12:25:09] <OndraSter> well
[12:27:34] <megal0maniac> Oh that bastard 6
[12:27:40] <megal0maniac> If only he was a 2
[12:27:59] <OndraSter> :)
[12:28:01] <OndraSter> yep
[12:28:21] <OndraSter> oh btw wolfram made a mistake! It integrated 1/x into log(x) yet it is log(|x|)
[12:29:03] <megal0maniac> Yeah I'm ignoring it
[12:29:12] * megal0maniac gets out paper and calculator
[12:29:21] <specing> OndraSter: could it be log (x) in the complex plane?
[12:29:28] <OndraSter> possibly
[12:29:44] <OndraSter> but it did not say "using complex plane"
[12:30:00] <specing> Did it say "using real numbers"?
[12:30:06] <OndraSter> it never does
[12:30:10] <OndraSter> but it says when using complex
[12:30:20] <specing> then you can roll in complex
[12:30:39] <OndraSter> soon my head will be rolling free if I don't pass maths - I will get kicked out of the uni :D
[12:30:45] <specing> looool
[12:30:58] <specing> You wont be first to fail maths :D
[12:31:00] <OndraSter> :D
[12:31:06] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: That's exactly why I'm attempting this
[12:31:10] <OndraSter> you did as well or are you pointing at somebody else?
[12:31:17] <OndraSter> (@ specing )
[12:31:18] <specing> manybody else
[12:31:22] <OndraSter> ah :D
[12:31:27] <megal0maniac> 51% for maths 2 :/
[12:31:39] <megal0maniac> Which is basically integration
[12:31:45] <OndraSter> I always thought that our maths was easier than electronics faculty, but apparently many people from our faculty ran to the electronics faculty because it was easier
[12:31:47] <OndraSter> eh
[12:31:55] <OndraSter> we have Math Analysis = limits, derivations, integrals of all kinds
[12:32:00] <OndraSter> then Linear Algebra = Planes, ..
[12:32:04] <megal0maniac> Us too
[12:32:06] <OndraSter> and Discrete Maths = nobodyknows what it is
[12:32:12] <megal0maniac> And I'm only in first year
[12:32:13] <OndraSter> because it is discrete
[12:32:14] <OndraSter> :D
[12:32:14] <specing> I do
[12:32:31] <OndraSter> Mathylisis = first semester, Lingebra = second semester, Discrete = third
[12:32:31] <specing> its graph and group theory
[12:32:39] <OndraSter> yeah something about graphs
[12:32:40] <OndraSter> master theorem
[12:32:52] <OndraSter> homosomething reoccuring things
[12:33:07] <specing> our discrete was more discreete than that
[12:33:30] <OndraSter> we also have automata & gramatics class.. four categories (you know) based on chomsky's hiearchy etc
[12:33:46] <OndraSter> deep knowledge of regular gramatics, context-less gramatics and context gramatics
[12:33:51] <OndraSter> unlimited - not our school :D
[12:33:54] <OndraSter> at *
[12:35:24] <megal0maniac> Gah. And if the plus was a minus, I could split it up
[12:35:55] <specing> you can
[12:35:57] <specing> complex
[12:36:04] <megal0maniac> Nooo
[12:36:07] <specing> Yeeeee
[12:36:15] <OndraSter> no
[12:36:19] <OndraSter> we are working in real plane only
[12:37:18] <specing> you'll get back into real once you've done the complex magic
[12:37:31] <OndraSter> :D
[12:37:33] <OndraSter> will I?
[12:37:48] <specing> doubt it
[12:37:54] <OndraSter> there you go
[12:37:57] <OndraSter> wolfram somehow split it up
[12:37:59] <OndraSter> but I have no idea how
[12:38:16] <OndraSter> it made x^6+1 into x^2+1 which is ok
[12:38:53] <OndraSter> but then it made the remaining x^4-x^2+1 into (x^2+sqrt(3)x+1)(-x^2+sqrt(3)x-1]
[12:39:05] <OndraSter> (ok it flipped the -)
[12:39:17] <OndraSter> but then it made the remaining x^4-x^2+1 into (x^2+sqrt(3)x+1)(x^2-sqrt(3)x+1]
[12:39:31] <OndraSter> I see that it somehow uses the (a+b)^2
[12:39:59] <OndraSter> or does it
[12:40:37] <megal0maniac> Screw this I'm going home
[12:41:19] <OndraSter> D:
[12:41:22] <OndraSter> NOBODY KNOWS! D:
[12:41:40] <megal0maniac> It's beyond what I've learnt
[12:41:44] <OndraSter> D:
[12:41:48] <OndraSter> everybody keeps saying tat
[12:41:49] <OndraSter> that
[12:41:55] <OndraSter> yet our school does not have the most maths
[12:41:59] <OndraSter> nor the hardest
[12:42:09] <megal0maniac> I'm only half way done with maths
[12:42:23] <megal0maniac> I'd ask a lecturer, but nobody is working
[12:42:27] <OndraSter> I have not passed a single maths yet
[12:42:28] <OndraSter> :D
[12:42:40] <OndraSter> ye I asked and I got the hint "use x^2/x^2"
[12:43:50] <specing> oh yeah I see it now
[12:44:44] <OndraSter> :o
[12:44:47] <OndraSter> tell me pls how
[12:44:54] * megal0maniac waits for sarcastic solution
[12:44:57] <OndraSter> :D
[12:44:58] <specing> u = x^3
[12:45:15] <specing> du = 3x^2 dx
[12:45:16] <OndraSter> du=3x^2 dx
[12:45:21] <OndraSter> ohhh
[12:45:21] <specing> dx = du/3x^2
[12:46:17] * antto injects some denormals into that
[12:46:36] <N1njaneer> Is beaky here?
[12:46:37] <tzanger> is this relevant to AVR software development?
[12:47:03] <megal0maniac> tzanger: Apparently integration is relevant to EVERYTHING
[12:47:15] <N1njaneer> tzanger: Maybe not, but it's nice filler to the crickets we normally have :)
[12:47:20] <antto> yeah, numbers are everywhere
[12:49:28] <OndraSter> you are da man, danke schön specing
[12:49:37] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: Does it work?
[12:50:19] <OndraSter> will see in a sec
[12:50:23] <tzanger> heh
[12:50:42] <OndraSter> well I have now x^2 stuck in the bottom, don't I?
[12:51:06] <N1njaneer> At least it's not a root stuck in the bottom :)
[12:51:16] <tzanger> aren't roots usually at the bottom?
[12:51:35] <OndraSter> well now I have 1/(u*(u^2+1)x^2)
[12:51:40] <specing> = - 1/x^3 - arctan (x^3) + C?
[12:51:42] <OndraSter> because I could replace only x^3
[12:53:17] <OndraSter> OH
[12:53:18] <OndraSter> nvm
[12:53:19] <OndraSter> I am idiot :D
[12:53:21] <OndraSter> yes
[12:53:26] <OndraSter> THANKS!
[12:53:31] <OndraSter> when you come around I will buy you a beer
[12:53:38] <OndraSter> (are you German, or did I mis-memorize it again?)
[12:56:21] <specing> Im not german
[12:56:23] <specing> (yet)
[12:57:00] <OndraSter> yet?
[12:57:08] <OndraSter> are you moving to the beerland?
[12:57:10] <OndraSter> oktoberfest!
[13:04:34] <specing> not yet
[13:04:57] <specing> will try to hop on a student exchange train
[13:05:12] <OndraSter> heh
[13:05:28] <OndraSter> I wanted to exchange myself with some UK/US/AUS/NZ student
[13:05:31] <OndraSter> but I am not going to
[13:06:59] <OndraSter> hmm can I directly integrate the 1/(u^2*(u^2+1)) or do I have to use per-partes?
[13:07:08] <OndraSter> or something
[13:08:17] <specing> partial derivatives
[13:08:28] <OndraSter> so yes
[13:08:31] <OndraSter> wait
[13:08:35] <OndraSter> partial derivatives..
[13:11:31] <OndraSter> partial fractions are simple here
[13:11:37] <OndraSter> and I somehow like them
[13:12:34] <specing> yes, partial fractions
[13:12:35] <specing> oops
[13:12:49] <specing> not sure where I got derivatives from
[13:13:39] <OndraSter> :D
[13:13:42] <OndraSter> yes I got scared
[13:13:47] <OndraSter> because partial derivations.. where would they come from
[13:13:53] <OndraSter> since you have only 1 variable there
[13:20:24] <OndraSter> well thanks specing
[13:20:34] <OndraSter> if you ever make it to Prague (or I make it to yours) I'll buy you a beer
[13:22:01] <OndraSter> I got a bit different result than wolfram - wolfram got 1/3(arctg(1/x^3)-1/x^3) and I got 1/3(-arctg(x^3)-1/x^3)
[13:22:09] <OndraSter> or is -arctg(x) = arctg(1/x)?
[13:24:00] <OndraSter> hm nope
[13:24:26] <beaky> how do i blink a resistor with avr
[13:24:37] <beaky> blink a led*
[13:24:50] <beaky> efficiently
[13:27:04] <specing> mfw beaky is here >:(
[13:27:05] <OndraSter> without an AVR.
[13:27:15] <megal0maniac_afk> Blinking resistors
[13:27:45] <OndraSter> AVR will be taking too much power to blink the LED
[13:27:48] <N1njaneer> light emitting resistors are possible
[13:27:53] <OndraSter> :D
[13:27:58] <megal0maniac_afk> N1njaneer: Once?
[13:28:03] <OndraSter> you can get blinking LEDs actually
[13:28:05] <N1njaneer> Depends on how bright :)
[13:28:17] <N1njaneer> Smoke-emitting transistors, too.
[13:28:20] <OndraSter> and they piss me off, because self-blinking RGB LEDs are/were cheaper than manually driven ones
[13:28:32] <N1njaneer> SOIC = smoking occasionally integrated circuit
[13:28:36] <OndraSter> :D
[13:28:41] <megal0maniac_afk> N1njaneer: A light-emitting resistor is just a filament bulb
[13:29:00] <N1njaneer> megal0maniac_afk: Yep! And now also offered in convenient SMT form, too!
[13:29:12] <megal0maniac_afk> Filament bulbs in SMT?
[13:29:23] <N1njaneer> No, LER's
[13:29:51] <N1njaneer> Though a miniature 1206 filament-bulb SMT part would be awesome for novelty sake.
[13:29:52] <specing> OndraSter: I think they are identical, just differ in representation
[13:30:03] <N1njaneer> I remember some of the super-tiny incandescent bulbs I've seen for stuff.
[13:30:04] <megal0maniac_afk> I would love that
[13:30:07] <OndraSter> ok... if I do -arctg(x^3)+arctg(1/x^3) though it is not 0
[13:30:10] <OndraSter> oh well
[13:30:25] <OndraSter> one of us (me vs wolfram) is wrong :D
[13:30:26] <OndraSter> (or both)
[13:30:29] <N1njaneer> OndraSter: What ARE you doing with the maths, anyhow?
[13:30:40] <OndraSter> trying to integrate some heavy stuff
[13:30:45] <OndraSter> (well not anymore, I am done)
[13:30:58] <OndraSter> hard to find the path to go through
[13:31:03] <N1njaneer> Yes but for what broad-stroke purpose?
[13:31:17] <OndraSter> to be allowed to go to the exam :<
[13:31:21] <OndraSter> these were bonus points
[13:31:23] <OndraSter> which I need
[13:31:37] <OndraSter> bonus => extra hard
[13:32:18] <N1njaneer> Ahhh
[13:32:35] <megal0maniac_afk> I love my network. Most ad server domains resolve to my server, for which the 404 page is nyan cat gif
[13:32:53] <N1njaneer> Woo!
[13:33:28] <OndraSter> :D
[13:33:31] <OndraSter> I just use adblock
[13:34:08] <megal0maniac_afk> http://i.imgur.com/dkTWNv0.png
[13:34:16] <megal0maniac_afk> The result is far more spectacular
[13:34:35] <OndraSter> yo ho ho life!
[13:35:09] <megal0maniac_afk> And it's network-wide, so everyone gets it :D
[13:35:18] <OndraSter> :D
[13:39:55] <specing> I should implement that, too
[13:40:46] <specing> though nyan pics would be better, as they dont consume precious cycles
[13:41:17] <megal0maniac_afk> specing: I have an entertainment quota for my cycles. A gif falls within the limits :)
[13:42:59] <megal0maniac_afk> Although so does Battlefield3, so..
[13:49:10] <w|zzy> megal0maniac_afk: not bf4?
[13:51:22] <N1njaneer> Beaky, is your ATTINY SMPS creating free-energy yet? :D
[14:10:59] <dryatu> is there any native assembly debugger for any atmel microcontroller on linux?
[14:12:53] <twnqx> gdb via jtag
[14:13:11] <N1njaneer> twnqx: Which version of the JTAG interface?
[14:13:18] <twnqx> uh?
[14:13:31] <N1njaneer> As in which JTAG programmer
[14:13:38] <twnqx> you need avarice as a middle version, so whatever that supports
[14:14:37] <dryatu> thanks
[14:15:37] <twnqx> looks like jtagice 1/2 and dragon
[14:17:52] <twnqx> oh, seems that avarice trunk supports mk3 as well
[14:22:52] <beaky> i love jtag
[14:23:45] <N1njaneer> AFAIK Atmel never made any of the proprietary protocol information the JTAG programmer uses avaliable it wasn't possible to do an open-source version of gdb. I've been bugging my Atmel FAE about this :)
[14:24:25] <twnqx> uh
[14:28:23] <N1njaneer> twnqx: For GDB to talk to the AVR via JTAG you need a bridge between GDB and the device drivers for the Atmel JTAG ICE device. AFAIK Atmel has never published said information.
[14:28:42] <twnqx> that mridge is avarice
[14:28:47] <twnqx> bridge*
[14:28:52] <tzanger> avarice is pretty decent
[14:29:14] <tzanger> I find that with crappier JTAG interfaces (jtag1 in particular) GDB suffers frequent desync/disconnects
[14:29:14] <N1njaneer> twnqx: You are missing what I am asking.
[14:29:22] <tzanger> I've never had a desync with dragon
[14:29:33] <twnqx> i haven't seen a question
[14:29:56] <twnqx> and the commands for mk1/mk2 have been published
[14:30:18] <N1njaneer> tzanger: AVR JTAGICE2/3 has been very stable for me, as have the rebranded Seggers that Atmel deploys for use with their SAM devices
[14:30:53] <N1njaneer> twnqx: Can you tell me where those commands are published at? Perhaps it's only the JTAGICE3 that hasn't been published yet, which is the one I was asking my Atmel FAE about.
[14:30:58] <tzanger> I'm trying to find a stupid simple stable as hell jtag device. I might end up making my own (picjug)
[14:31:44] <N1njaneer> tzanger: JTACICE3 from Atmel is very stable, but due to unpublished command structure, has to be run through AS6 AFAIK
[14:32:06] <N1njaneer> I just wish JTAG was actually standardized for complete interchangibility.
[14:32:18] <twnqx> oh, physically it is... :P
[14:32:23] <N1njaneer> Because I have a dozen different JTAG programmers here for a dozen different chips.
[14:32:29] <tzanger> it is. you just need to know what bit represents what on a particular device
[14:32:39] <tzanger> if anything, JTAG is *too* low level
[14:32:40] <twnqx> anyway, i have no idea where the jtagice3 docs are from
[14:32:59] <twnqx> but both avarice and avrdude should support it in latest versions
[14:33:03] <tzanger> JTAGICE3 should be decypherable with a usb sniffer and time, but that's a shitty way to do it
[14:33:09] <N1njaneer> twnqx: Physically it is, yes, but you still need a brand-specific programmer to talk to the parts because it was never standardized above that level, beyond some general pass-through stuff.
[14:33:36] <N1njaneer> That's why I have thousands of dollars of redundant JTAG programmers here.
[14:33:38] <tzanger> brand-specific? no, you just need the bit model
[14:33:42] <N1njaneer> But no other choice.
[14:33:51] <tzanger> ie. I can use openocd to program devices if I really wanted to
[14:34:42] <tzanger> what's on the wire isn't different for different vendors. it's all the PC-facing interface that is vendor specific and shitty
[14:34:49] <N1njaneer> Yeah, well, that doesn't integrate in to the toolchains from TI, Atmel, Xilinx, Digi, and general ARM stuff. So it's kind of useless for interchange.
[14:35:13] <N1njaneer> Which is why I have JTAG programmers specific to parts in each of those vendor series.
[14:35:27] <tzanger> that's why I try to avoid toolchains lke that. it's why I love AVR over PIC, and why I tend to stick with processors that can use the stock-standard GCC toolchain
[14:35:56] <tzanger> you're absolutely right though, having to use a specific environment (particularly a gui one) is a terrible experience
[14:36:42] <N1njaneer> I wish there were just a generic USB class (or at least standard) that simply allowed any software to talk to any device, and treat the JTAG as if it were akin to a serial port, and thus allow any software to use any hardware to talk to any device chain.
[14:37:11] <tzanger> but.. but... you couldn't overcharge for crappy hardware product tie-ins then!
[14:37:21] <N1njaneer> Regrettably, that isn't the case. So I move to the next method that allows me to get my work done as quickly and reliably as possible. Which is generally spending $$$$ on JTAG interfaces specific to each vendor.
[14:37:44] <N1njaneer> tzanger: Yeah, true that. I think my JTAG interface from TI was around $4K
[14:37:52] <N1njaneer> And that was discounted.
[14:37:58] <twnqx> my xilinx one was chaper :P
[14:38:09] <tzanger> wow, I would have told them to stuff their entire processor family and gone with another vendor
[14:38:51] <N1njaneer> twnqx: I have a Xilinx Platform Cable USB II hooked up on my desk now. At least they're cheaper now, but still a could hundred bucks if I recall.
[14:39:11] <twnqx> 150 or so
[14:39:24] <tzanger> which TI part was that? I've used standard tools with their i.MX devices. They did goofy things with 68k and smaller processors (hc8/12/16) but they're also ancient
[14:39:49] <N1njaneer> Yeah, XDS560 from TI is still $1K-$3495.
[14:39:59] <N1njaneer> tzanger: C6xxx DSPs and similar
[14:40:06] <N1njaneer> This was also purchased about 10 years ago.
[14:40:10] <tzanger> we were using abatron bdi3k JTAG units but they were network connected which drove the price up
[14:40:32] <N1njaneer> I have the older PCI version of the emulator, because it comes from a time before USB was terribly ubiquitous.
[14:40:34] <tzanger> ahh yes, black-ice or whateer the hell they called their specific JTAG shit. I've used it and yes they're terribly expensive
[14:41:11] <tzanger> I still have a MPLAB ICE2k that does nothing anymore :-)
[14:41:21] <tzanger> and a RICE16 from way back
[14:41:24] <N1njaneer> Sad thing is that I think I've only used it a few times. It's collecting dust in a box somewhere at the moment.
[14:41:41] <N1njaneer> Mostly everything is AVR/ARM/Xilinx these days :)
[14:41:54] <twnqx> TI's toolchains work with ftdi ft2232's too
[14:43:52] <N1njaneer> That being said, I've also had to suffer DigiESP which comes with a Digi-rebranded Segger JTAG interface. It works, but the stability and random "oh I'll just error out this time for no reason, might have to cycle power or restart the software just because" linked with the joys that are Eclipse made me want to pretty much gouge my eyes out with a screwdriver on that project. But now it's done and
[14:43:52] <N1njaneer> the client is happy, and THIER guys get to suffer using it for any changes required. I just had to craft and make the API and everything behind it work for them :)
[14:44:28] <N1njaneer> Which is why AS6 with Atmel's SAM JTAG is like the biggest breath of fresh air, because I have never once yet had JTAG not work 100% correctly every single time.
[14:45:01] <N1njaneer> You build a project, then upload/debug, and it not only does it fast, but it... just works. Like you would expect it should!
[14:45:20] <N1njaneer> Anyhow, </SOAPBOX>
[14:47:45] <N1njaneer> What was I doing before I started typing anyhow?
[14:47:56] <N1njaneer> Oh yeah, loading updatd FPGA firmware via JTAG
[14:48:02] <N1njaneer> JTAG which beaky loves
[17:07:29] <carabia> hello beaky
[18:58:40] <N2TOH> other then reading the docs, who haere has some pointers for writing code for the AVR in ASM?
[18:58:53] <tzanger> start small
[18:59:17] <N2TOH> dasblinken LED?
[18:59:31] <tzanger> make an LED blink, then do it with a timer interrupt, then maybe get a counter outputting wtih the UART, then maybe accept a word from the UART to set the blink rate...
[18:59:36] <tzanger> but honestly, why asm?
[18:59:53] <tzanger> use avr-libc and avr-gcc
[18:59:58] <tzanger> drop down to asm only when you must
[19:00:36] <N2TOH> I'm looking to write a tight bytecode interrupter
[19:01:19] <Tom_itx> i did some asm just for the heck of it
[19:01:38] <N2TOH> well that and I need a funky bootloader
[19:03:51] <N1njaneer> Write it in C/C++ first, and then hand-tune in assembler if necessary
[19:04:10] <N1njaneer> Mediocre code written in C/C++ will run circles around poorly-written assembler.
[19:04:13] * N2TOH still needs to understand the ASM code to tune in ASM
[19:04:46] <N1njaneer> Write stuff in C, and then look at the resulting ASM output is a good technique to get a feel for the opcodes
[19:04:58] <N2TOH> good point
[19:05:00] <N1njaneer> Else just pull the AVR Instruction Set PDF which has the ASM breakdown for each opcode.
[19:05:07] <N1njaneer> Or both more likely.
[19:05:33] <Roklobsta> even with -O2 the assembly is sorta easy to follow with respect to the C
[19:05:55] <N1njaneer> I used to do pure AVR ASM about 12 years ago when the C compilers were just barely capable and clunky as hell for trying to do microcontroller stuff. Glad to just do it in C now.
[19:06:12] <N1njaneer> Can work magnitudes of order faser.
[19:06:56] <N1njaneer> N2TOH: What is the purpose of said bytecode interpreter?
[19:07:19] <N1njaneer> And where are you going to be reading said bytecodes from?
[19:07:37] <tzanger> I used to be a PIC asm ninja
[19:07:41] <tzanger> that was a long, long time back now
[19:07:45] <N2TOH> well so far my medium term goal is to get the ATMEGA1284P to boot with a 1039HZ external clock, and then reprogram said clock via I2C.
[19:08:07] <N1njaneer> Reprogram the clock how?
[19:08:15] <tzanger> used to be be an x86 asm ninja too but when the 486 came out I started to lose it
[19:08:26] <N2TOH> longer term project with the bytecode interp is to "run" code from an SD card or PATA mechanical hard disk
[19:09:16] <N1njaneer> tzanger: x86 assembler makes my brain hurt because it makes one question what people were smoking when they designed such a poor opcode set. MMX extensions helped to more RISC'icize x86 but still. Bleh.
[19:09:28] <N2TOH> N1njaneer, it's a part from linear tech that can be configured via I2C interface from 1.039Khz to 68MHz
[19:09:47] <tzanger> N1njaneer: well as I said this was back in 386 days
[19:10:01] <N2TOH> with something like 1Hz or better resolution
[19:10:02] <tzanger> the 486 wasn't much of a change but the P5 really made things goofy
[19:10:06] <N1njaneer> N2TOH: Considering the speed you'd be pulling instructions in to the processor vs clock execution speed, I'd make it work in C first and then see if there's literally any point in trying to make it go faster. Your communications speed withe external devices may likely be the bottleneck.
[19:11:21] <N2TOH> the boot process is at like 1KHz, and trying to jump to <16MHz via the I2C interface
[19:11:27] <N1njaneer> Parallel might help shuffle stuff in faster, but with SPI and such you're going to be limited by division of the master clock for how fast you can move bytes in, then you have higher-level framing access and such to deal with, plus the overhead of interrupt responses, etc.
[19:11:48] <N1njaneer> N2TOH: What is the purpose of the variable clock? Why not just use the multitude of clock options inherent to the AVR already?
[19:12:17] <N2TOH> the ability to change the clock rate on the fly while running code
[19:12:32] <N1njaneer> What is your desire to do that?
[19:12:59] <N1njaneer> It's an intriguing feature.
[19:13:24] <N2TOH> with a board equipped with a suitable part, you can specify your clock speed a number of ways
[19:13:35] <N1njaneer> But why, is the question.
[19:13:45] <N1njaneer> Just run the AVR at the maximum speed you can for your voltage all the time.
[19:13:48] <N2TOH> such as stored in EEprom, or passed along via the compiler
[19:14:04] <N1njaneer> Like, use the internal 8Mhz clock. Done :)
[19:14:11] <N1njaneer> Or add an exteral resonator or crystal.
[19:14:41] <N2TOH> that is another option, setting the running voltage via firmware. had not considered that till now
[19:15:05] <N2TOH> if noting else it would be an extension of the STK500 boards features
[19:15:06] <N1njaneer> Why the requirements for variability, though?
[19:15:17] <N2TOH> power consumption
[19:15:42] <N2TOH> by dialing down the voltage and clock rate, battery drain drops
[19:15:45] <N1njaneer> You do realize the micros have sleep modes and such to deal with that exact stuff, right?
[19:16:03] <N2TOH> hard to do anything while asleep
[19:16:38] <N2TOH> there is also the odd situations where you need a specific clock speed like 11.0592MHz
[19:16:58] <N1njaneer> Well, good luck with the project!
[19:17:07] <N2TOH> thanks...
[19:17:37] <N2TOH> I hope the clock is the easy part, the bytecode aspect well "step three!"
[19:18:17] <N1njaneer> You could also just go over to using something like a Cortex M0+ and have all of that kind of stuff built right in, and be at the same price-point and footprint size and lower power consumption than AVR
[19:18:51] <N1njaneer> Plus having 32-bit processing for your bytecode interpreter and the full ARM instruction set avaliable
[19:20:19] <N1njaneer> With the ARM stuff you can do the clock speed division directly in the part - lets you run in a slow-speed clock externally and then PLL it to whatever multipler/divisor ratio you want. Works great.
[19:21:13] <N1njaneer> Those parts are also designed to specifically deal with clock-rate changes. AVR for the most part SHOULD as well since it's a static design, assuming you aren't using any of the parts with a PLL, etc.
[19:30:52] * Casper pokes N1njaneer
[19:31:48] <N1njaneer> Mrrrp?
[19:32:17] <Casper> firmware updating
[19:32:31] <N1njaneer> hmm?
[19:32:48] <Casper> sig gen
[19:33:09] <N1njaneer> *confused*
[19:33:29] <Casper> jason
[19:33:32] <N2TOH> I already have ARM systems, it's not in the spirit of what I'm working twards
[19:33:44] <N1njaneer> Casper: Oh, did he get back to you?
[19:33:48] <Casper> yup
[19:34:02] <N1njaneer> Awesome. So did they work on getting the firmware fixed?
[19:34:15] <Casper> he said that the newer firmware fix it
[19:34:22] <N1njaneer> Oh perfect, there you go. :)
[19:34:23] <Casper> waiting for the flash to be fone
[19:34:24] <Casper> done
[19:34:29] <N1njaneer> Nice!
[19:34:33] <Casper> but it take like 10 mins he said
[19:34:41] <N2TOH> the I2C clock thing is more of a gimmick thing for me.
[19:34:51] <N1njaneer> Oh well, you can go read the internets for 10 minutes while it works.
[19:36:07] <N2TOH> if nothing else it is a convenience if you need a specific clock speed for what ever reason, where you can change it without changing parts on a board
[19:36:38] <N1njaneer> I can't say in 15 years of doing microcontroller stuff I've ever come across that need :)
[19:36:50] <N2TOH> the WOW factor?
[19:36:57] <N1njaneer> Generally just clock it at 8 or 16Mhz and call it good :)
[19:37:36] <N1njaneer> Standard UART baud rates work fine with an 8 or 16Mhz crystal :)
[19:37:43] <N2TOH> as for the byte code interperter I'm looking to work past the limitation of only running code from the internal AVR flash
[19:37:55] <N1njaneer> But again, design it how you want to play with it. Sounds like a fun project.
[19:38:10] <Casper> N1njaneer: I'm starting to wonder if it got bricked...
[19:38:21] <N2TOH> I've had problems with 1200baud on a Tiny85, it was a systems limitation
[19:38:37] <N1njaneer> N2TOH: You can do that, though you'll take a fairly significant hit from the communication and interpretation overhead.
[19:38:44] <N2TOH> and the reason I bought an STK500 board so I could write the fuse bits
[19:39:18] <N2TOH> I ended up setting the fuse bits and internal clock for a slower speed
[19:39:59] <N2TOH> as all it needed to do was sense some push buttons and burp out some serial charters @ 1200Baud
[19:40:43] <N1njaneer> Generally you need a ceramic resonator or calibration of the internal oscillator if you want to send asyncronous serial with any reliability.
[19:41:19] <Epsilon-Auriga_> I've used autobaud detection to sync up the usart when using the internal rc oscillator.
[19:41:52] <Epsilon-Auriga_> but that requires the far end to play along by sending a stream of known characters until it gets a good response.
[19:42:24] <N2TOH> the app for the Tiny85 was a propriety radio system with closed code
[19:45:17] <N1njaneer> You should talk to beaky about Attiny stuff. He loves them.
[19:47:21] <Casper> still waiting
[19:47:59] <N1njaneer> Casper: Maybe the firmware updater is union, and on a coffee break?
[19:48:10] <N2TOH> LOL
[19:48:11] <Casper> maybe
[19:49:10] <N2TOH> clock matters aside, my need for a byte-code interpreter is the ability to run "code" from an external storage device
[19:49:50] <Epsilon-Auriga_> N2TOH: I have the same need for some stuff...haven't gotten a good resolution on that one yet.
[19:49:58] <N1njaneer> Compile a LUA interpreter for it and use that :)
[19:50:05] <N2TOH> there is a guy in Calli who has already done this, but warned me his source in undocumented, and not really interested in assisting
[19:50:08] <Epsilon-Auriga_> am playing, on and off, with basic and C interpreters.
[19:51:15] <N2TOH> the guy out in CA wrote an ASM compiler, my thoughts are why not write an interpreter that will accept AVR machine operands?
[19:51:30] <N2TOH> so you can just feed it compiled code from AVR-GCC
[19:52:02] <Epsilon-Auriga_> it's,,,,doable..
[19:52:08] <N2TOH> sure you will pay a big price in the way of performance, but
[19:52:20] <Epsilon-Auriga_> better off to go with a basic interpreter.
[19:52:25] <Epsilon-Auriga_> or even a C interpreter.
[19:52:35] <N2TOH> sure C maybe
[19:52:55] <Epsilon-Auriga_> http://code.google.com/p/picoc/
[19:53:09] <Epsilon-Auriga_> won't fit on an attiny though.
[19:53:17] <Epsilon-Auriga_> I've gotten it down to fit on an atmega1284p
[19:53:52] <N2TOH> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl
[19:54:27] <N2TOH> funny you mention the 1284P, I was considering it for a UNIX port
[19:54:42] <Epsilon-Auriga_> hehe.
[19:54:45] <Epsilon-Auriga_> I love that chip.
[19:55:02] <N1njaneer> I still want to look at using LUA for that kind of thing, since it's a register-based language architecture, so likely better suited :)
[19:55:02] <N2TOH> I wish the 2560 had more SRAM
[19:55:03] <Epsilon-Auriga_> if it had hardware USB it would be perfect.
[19:55:18] <N1njaneer> N2TOH: You can always just add more SRAM externally :)
[19:55:31] <Epsilon-Auriga_> it's a
[19:55:33] <N2TOH> you can bit bang USB on an ATMEGA
[19:55:44] <Epsilon-Auriga_> it's not easy to add the sram to the stack or heap though.
[19:56:02] <N1njaneer> What heap? :)
[19:56:04] <N2TOH> I was just considering adding a PATA interface for storage and SWAP space
[19:56:08] <Epsilon-Auriga_> N2TOH: yeah, but it takes a lot of processor time...and isn't compatible with several machines I have here.
[19:56:33] <Epsilon-Auriga_> I've played with vUSB...
[19:56:34] <N1njaneer> At some point it just makes more sense to bump to an ARM and stop fighting :)
[19:56:45] <N2TOH> PDP-11 emulation? the 644P has already emulated an ARM chip
[19:57:16] <N2TOH> show me an ARM chip in a PDIP package :)
[19:57:30] <N2TOH> NO cheating with adapter boards!
[19:58:08] <N1njaneer> Just go SMT :)
[19:58:13] <N2TOH> usefulness aside, it would be entertaining to run UNIX on a 20MHz AVR for no reason at all
[19:59:22] <N2TOH> yeah but with a soderless board and some wire My 10 year old Cousin could wire it up in an afternoon...
[19:59:32] <N1njaneer> N2TOH:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/03/29/running-linux-on-a-8bit-avr/ -- linux on a 1284P
[19:59:44] <Epsilon-Auriga_> yup...only takes 4 hours to boot.
[20:00:14] <N2TOH> I have seen it, thus my quest to run original UNIX on an AVR
[20:00:59] <N2TOH> be it PDP-11 emulation, or just cramming all the source into AVR-GCC with the K&R switches set
[20:01:46] <N2TOH> I have already manged to get hunt the wompus to compile without errors
[20:01:48] <Casper> N1njaneer: still not rebooted... I'm seriously worried about a brick
[20:02:09] <N1njaneer> Casper: Leave it overnight?
[20:02:25] <N2TOH> sure what's the harm?
[20:02:56] <N2TOH> just let it sit, is there a potential fire hazard?
[20:04:24] <N1njaneer> Well, 10Mhz IS a resonant harmonic frequency of fire...
[20:09:28] <bsdfox> N2TOH, nxp makes a couple dip cortex-m0 chips
[20:11:46] * N2TOH lets just say I'm amused with the novelty prospect of running a 32 bit operating system older then myself on a low cost 8 bit chip, and leave it at that...
[20:12:29] <N1njaneer> Nothin' wrong with that :)
[20:12:42] <N1njaneer> Ambitious, but most worthwhile things are :)
[20:13:23] <bsdfox> depends on your definition of worthwhile
[20:14:23] <N2TOH> the LOLZ from the people who still run big iron
[20:20:14] <N1njaneer> Hey, I'm converting the panels of an SGI Deskside Onyx2 to fit on a minifridge as a side-project :)
[20:22:45] <N2TOH> panels?
[20:23:07] <N2TOH> not many people have used SGI systems or even know what they are
[20:24:05] * N2TOH used to get deals on used SUN Multi sync workstation monitors years ago when a 1600x1200 monitor was big money
[20:24:33] <N1njaneer> N2TOH:
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/KfHyv4Uj5TdCqSh5.medium
[20:24:40] <N2TOH> 20"+ that is
[20:25:29] <N1njaneer> Converting in to a mini-fridge, since I still think the Onyx series was one of the best-looking case designs. And I'm not likely to find a Connection Machine CM-4 to scrap for the sweet 4096 red LED panels on the sides :)
[20:25:35] <N2TOH> seen it used it years ago, while visiting the guy who sold end of lease workstations
[20:26:05] <N2TOH> damn it IS a SICKNESS!
[20:26:10] <N1njaneer> Yeah I snagged a bunch of 20" Intergraphs that I used to use back in the day. Was quite a load on the desk running 3 x 1600x1200 CRTs, but the screenspace was nice!
[20:26:31] <N2TOH> NICE!
[20:26:46] <N1njaneer> Now I run a 30" 2560 x 1600 and two 24" 1920x1200's on the sides :)
[20:27:04] <N2TOH> My cat at the time loved the heat from those CRT monsters!
[20:27:29] * N2TOH is now the green eyed monster...
[20:27:45] <N2TOH> I have a think for pixel counts...
[20:28:07] <N1njaneer> I really need to swap out to three of the 30" ones, you know... for consistency XD
[20:28:43] <N2TOH> LOL yeah, or even a set of the $k Monitors from EZEO sp?
[20:28:43] <N1njaneer> REALLY nice for code and board layouts :)
[20:28:51] <N2TOH> LOL!
[20:29:02] <N2TOH> have you seen theri ATC monitors?
[20:29:31] <N1njaneer> I will only buy Dell monitors - have never had a problem with any I've owned, and they have the consistently best displays of any laptops and monitors I've ever worked with. :)
[20:30:19] <N2TOH> 4Kx2K Air traffic Control monitors, I'm willing to settle for their "old" 2kX2K models
[20:30:22] <N1njaneer> The Apple and Retina displays are about the only other things I've personally group in the same category. And most of that is because it's the same manufactures of the actual panels.
[20:31:01] <N2TOH> what about the IBM monster?
[20:31:23] <N2TOH> something like 3840X2400 something
[20:31:35] <N1njaneer> Problem is that you generally need multiple signals to feed 4k content display, and it's nontrivial to ensure they all sync together. Works great for semi-static applications, but can be extremely challenging to work with for full-motion video.
[20:32:01] <N1njaneer> AFAIK IBM discontinued that. The refresh rate was horrible and again you had to drive it from multiple links at once.
[20:32:34] <N2TOH> I know I know, but for CAD work!
[20:33:06] <N1njaneer> I find 2560 x 1600 is very sufficient for CAD stuff, epecially when running multiple monitors :)
[20:33:31] <N2TOH> I would buy a $k TV yesterday if it were not for the sub 60Hz refresh rates
[20:33:44] <N1njaneer> Yup.
[20:33:49] <N1njaneer> Makes my brain hurt.
[20:34:02] <N2TOH> 4K TV is cheaper then 2560 x 1600 monitor
[20:34:19] <N1njaneer> Cheaper than $600?
[20:34:47] <N2TOH> during some points of our 4 quarter cycle yes
[20:35:26] <N1njaneer> Then get that :)
[20:35:33] <N2TOH> I have seen that crappy Seki 39" 4K monitor for less then that, and approaching $400
[20:35:33] <N1njaneer> I'll stick to my Dells :)
[20:35:56] <N2TOH> other then the 30Hz refresh I might buy one for a few laughs
[20:37:37] <N2TOH> my personal limit for monitors is about $500 per unit, unless there is a special need
[20:38:56] <N2TOH> it will ne nice when we can get 3840x2160+ @ better then 60Hz refresh without jumping thru rings of fire
[20:39:25] <N1njaneer> It's silly that the screen on my cell phone is a full 1920 x 1080
[20:39:32] <N2TOH> oh BTW there is a super cheap kegerator for under $500USD
[20:40:05] <N2TOH> it's also silly that camera sensors are WAY bigger then screens!
[20:41:21] <N1njaneer> Depends on what you are doing.
[20:41:53] <N1njaneer> Since almost all CMOS sensors a Bayesian dither on the color, you already want to oversample in order to get better color interpolation.
[20:42:00] <N1njaneer> +use a
[20:45:58] <N1njaneer> Some people are also going out to print, and you also often want the ability to zoom and crop without losing resolution
[22:19:13] <Casper> N1njaneer: sig gen is in worse shape, now I have lines in the display
