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[06:38:11] <Lt_Lemming> I have finally found something that has convinced me the Arduino team are nuts
[07:27:24] <Tom_itx> it took this long?
[08:27:29] <chek0v> lololol
[08:27:32] <chek0v> Lt_Lemming: do tell
[08:28:33] <Lt_Lemming> the Arduino due has a 144 pin chip
[08:28:38] <Lt_Lemming> it provides 56 IO pins
[08:28:47] <Lt_Lemming> the chip also has ethernet onboard
[08:29:06] <Lt_Lemming> the pins for that are not broken out ANYWHERE!
[08:30:30] <theBear> finally ? just look at them using c++ to wrap things that take less typing to do without wrapping, not to mention taking less actual compilable code
[08:30:44] <dunz0r> Lt_Lemming: So... don't buy it?
[08:31:08] <theBear> and therefore encouraging people not only not to learn, but not to understand the BASICS of how avrs work
[08:31:08] <Lt_Lemming> dunz0r, not planning to
[08:31:33] <Lt_Lemming> theBear, it's more readable though
[08:32:13] <dunz0r> theBear: The Basics of AVR are pretty tricky to understand if you have no experience with programming or electronics.
[08:32:26] <dunz0r> Arduino is like training wheels on a bike, or something.
[08:32:38] <Lt_Lemming> I was looking into designing a compatible board dunz0r, but wanted ethernet on chip
[08:32:48] <Lt_Lemming> imagine my surprise when I discovered that
[08:32:57] <dunz0r> It is a bit weird, yes.
[08:33:47] <theBear> dunz0r, it's not like training wheels, it's like a steering wheel, 4 extra wheels, and a motor
[08:34:46] <Lt_Lemming> theBear, it has done a lot to get a lot of people into electronics who never would have considered it before
[08:34:50] <theBear> and you shouldn't really be allowed to program if you aren't prepared to learn the basics, avr part is kinda irrelevant, like, a port looks like a byte, and bytes can be read or programmed with values, not understanding that kinda thing you really shouldn't be allowed to program
[08:35:18] <Lt_Lemming> yes, but it's easier to learn top down than bottom up
[08:35:24] <theBear> Lt_Lemming, i'm not sure i feel that's a good thing, and i'm not sure i feel it gets people into electronics, so much as lets them abuse it with no transition path to actual electronics
[08:35:32] <Lt_Lemming> start with the simple version, then work down from there
[08:35:37] <theBear> or to actual programming, avr or otherwise
[08:35:45] <Lt_Lemming> I disagree
[08:35:56] <Lt_Lemming> because there are plenty of paths away from the arduino mindset
[08:36:14] <theBear> yeah, but it took you this long to find any problem with arduinos, so i dunno if i can respect your opinion on this one :)
[08:36:16] <Lt_Lemming> but the arduino get's people on the path in the first place, and then they can pick where to go from there
[08:36:20] <dunz0r> Most people I know who's passionate and started out with Arduinos eventuall "graduated" and went to "pure" AVR.
[08:36:23] <dunz0r> Myself too.
[08:36:43] <Lt_Lemming> oh I knew there were problems, just I didn't think they were quite as insane as some claimed
[08:36:49] <Lt_Lemming> this one just makes me go WTF
[08:37:04] <dunz0r> The sheer amount of things you need to do/understand to even get started with blinking an LED with an AVR compared to doing it with "an arduino" is huge.
[08:37:33] <Lt_Lemming> oh also, in the schemtatic for the due, there is a section labeled "ETH" with a header labeled "MACB" that has all the right signals... but it doesn't appear on the board >_<
[08:37:35] <dunz0r> And yes, I know how to do it really fast NOW. But building dev-boards, choosing a programmer etc etc.
[08:37:58] <chek0v> Lt_Lemming: idk if c++ and "more readable" belong in same sentence
[08:38:08] <dunz0r> Classes are nice though.
[08:38:26] <Lt_Lemming> chek0v, raw AVR code vs Arduino code
[08:38:36] <Lt_Lemming> regardless of whether it's c++ or brainfuck
[08:39:07] <Lt_Lemming> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
[08:39:08] <theBear> i find the raw avr much more readable
[08:39:34] <theBear> and brainfuck doesn't apply, cos you can't code for arduino in brainfuck, and i'm pretty sure you can't code for avr with it at all, currently
[08:40:26] <dunz0r> theBear: IF you know what all the TCCR0B-things mean, then yes.
[08:40:47] <Lt_Lemming> theBear, to someone who hasn't programmed before
[08:40:56] <Lt_Lemming> the arduino code would be a lot more obvious
[08:41:12] <dunz0r> Or someone who hasn't changed bits in registers...
[08:41:38] <Lt_Lemming> indeed
[08:41:42] <theBear> to someone who hasn't programmed, reading code is irrelevant
[08:41:49] <Lt_Lemming> ffs
[08:41:51] <dunz0r> No it isn't...
[08:42:02] <Lt_Lemming> step outside your own mind for a minute dude
[08:42:03] <dunz0r> Everyone was at the point "hasn't programmed" at some point.
[08:42:07] <theBear> that's like saying egyptian is more readable than chinese, to someone who only speaks english
[08:42:33] <theBear> it's a foolish and invalid claim
[08:43:06] <Lt_Lemming> I beg to differ
[08:43:42] <dunz0r> PORTB &= ~(1 << PB0); wouldn't tell anyone who didn't know programming anything as opposed to digitalWrite(13,LOW);
[08:43:50] <theBear> ahh, you think chinese is more readable, mandarin of course
[08:44:34] <dunz0r> If it's no difference to someone who doesn't know programming, then everyone should start with the most complicated language.
[08:44:43] <dunz0r> Since it doesn't matter if you don't already know programming.
[08:44:59] <Lt_Lemming> like dunz0r just illustrated theBear
[08:45:06] <Lt_Lemming> the arduino code is a lot simpler
[08:45:19] <dunz0r> Lt_Lemming: Not simpler, easier to understand.
[08:45:25] <dunz0r> Very very different things
[08:45:32] <Lt_Lemming> kk
[08:45:33] <theBear> i could swear he just illustrated something that encourages learning nothing except how to call a function, then said something that backs up my point
[08:46:01] <dunz0r> theBear: Not saying one should stop with the Arduino or that it's one or the other, it's a stepping stone.
[08:46:16] <dunz0r> You need to start somewhere.
[08:46:25] <dunz0r> The Arduino enviroment is a starting point.
[08:46:33] <Lt_Lemming> +1
[08:47:05] <dunz0r> After you've done the blinking LEDs a few times, you might design your own board, play with timers and all of a sudden you're writing "proper" AVR C and designing your own boards.
[08:47:13] <theBear> meh, i'm tired ofthis, and hungry, and disturbed by my afternoon of dt triggered recurring vivid nightmares
[08:47:29] <theBear> i could go on, i just, don't care
[08:47:52] <dunz0r> It's as if I would start with making a 3D fps game the first thing I did if I wanted to make games(something I haven't done)
[08:48:07] <dunz0r> You start with pong(or something) and some simple library for imaging.
[08:48:58] <theBear> you do ? damn, we are very different people
[08:49:24] <theBear> for reference i wrote pong before i was 10 with no libraries
[08:49:33] <dunz0r> Why would I start with something horribly complex before I even understand the concepts for?
[08:49:46] <dunz0r> I don't know diddlysquat about 3D or games for that matter.
[08:50:10] <Lt_Lemming> theBear, you know who you sound like atm?
[08:50:27] <Lt_Lemming> DanFredriksen, you are behaving almost exactly like him atm
[08:50:57] <Lt_Lemming> "I did it this way, and that's the only way, so you should too"
[08:51:21] <theBear> nah, i did it a very different way to what i recommend, tho i didn't exhibit that, AND i'm tired about this
[08:51:26] <theBear> i gonna make soup
[08:57:35] <DanFrederiksen> bear might be opinionated like me but the crucial difference is that I'm right and he is often wrong
[08:57:55] <DanFrederiksen> he is nothing like me
[08:58:27] <theBear> fucking asshat, just cos you're slightly more mentally disturbed than me and can conveniently erase the MANY times you've been shown wrong over the years from memory
[08:58:44] <theBear> not to mention many would say you gotta do a LOT wrong to be banned from a whole series of channels
[08:59:24] <dunz0r> I don't claim my "way" is right for everyone, for some I bet that starting out with the hardest and most complex concepts works just fine.
[08:59:27] <DanFrederiksen> I don't do that. And I'm perfectly sane.
[08:59:55] <DanFrederiksen> I'm trying not to be mean here but isn't it true you have some clinical darkness at times?
[08:59:57] <theBear> yeah, only people who aren't sane with even limited intelligence EVER say that
[09:00:21] <theBear> not just darkness, violence and sociopathic issues too !
[09:00:40] <DanFrederiksen> so maybe keep that in mind and take a deep breath once in a while
[09:00:43] <theBear> but none of that changes my perception of factual reality
[09:00:59] <DanFrederiksen> actually that's exactly what it does
[09:01:09] <theBear> maybe err, fuckoff and die once in a while, stop turning your misery on others
[09:01:11] <dunz0r> Bah, who doesn't have clinical darkness. It's more important where and how you show it.
[09:01:30] <jadew> in your face!
[09:01:41] <DanFrederiksen> dunz0r :) clinical as in officially diagnosed and taking medication for it
[09:01:58] <DanFrederiksen> noone is serene, but some have more problems than others
[09:02:11] <theBear> don't be ridiculous, the medication DOES make me dangerously psychotic, i drink for it, to protect others
[09:02:17] <jadew> /part #therapy
[09:02:33] <dunz0r> DanFrederiksen: That's what I meant. Of course everyone's problems manifest differently.
[09:02:58] <theBear> people like you, who once upon a time i would hospitalize shortly after meeting
[09:03:11] <DanFrederiksen> theBear, it wasn't really meant as a bashing session of you. merely an objection to Lt_Lemming's poor observation
[09:03:17] <theBear> unlike you, i've learned to accept and deal with my problems, and become a better person for it
[09:03:32] <dunz0r> No need to be an ass about it though.
[09:03:55] <dunz0r> Having psycological issues isn't an excuse.
[09:04:00] <dunz0r> There are no excuses, ever.
[09:04:11] <theBear> no need, that just makes me feel a bit better about all the times i seen HIM be an ass, unless you were talking to him, in which case, that's just how he rolls
[09:04:28] <dunz0r> Both of you, all of you, none of you etc.
[09:04:29] <theBear> and i NEVER use them as an excuse
[09:05:07] * dunz0r is throwing stones in a glasshouse etc, but never mind.
[09:05:08] <Lt_Lemming> DanFrederiksen is pretty notorious dunz0r, in case you are unaware
[09:05:12] <theBear> tho sometimes there are excuses, like, "sorry i'm 5 minutes late getting home from work, there was an accident on the freeway"
[09:05:21] <dunz0r> Lt_Lemming: I am not unaware,
[09:05:23] * Lt_Lemming is glad there are channels he is in, that DanFrederiksen is not
[09:05:44] <theBear> hehe, keep him talking in here and add one more to the list :)
[09:06:06] <dunz0r> theBear: Yes. I didn't mean "there are no excuses, ever" literally.
[09:06:08] <theBear> now i'm REALLY making soup, abusing an asshat is no excuse for not feeding myself :)
[09:06:21] <dunz0r> Glhf o/
[09:06:30] <theBear> dunz0r, i know, just trying to crack the corner of that not-grin you got going on right now
[09:06:47] <theBear> ahh yes, and gibberish sequence of friendly looking letters back to you :)
[09:07:04] <DanFrederiksen> good luck, high five?
[09:07:54] <dunz0r> DanFrederiksen: Good luck, have fun
[09:08:09] <DanFrederiksen> ok. a tad esoteric..
[09:08:44] <theBear> ooooooh ! someone was wrong !
[09:08:53] <Lt_Lemming> MEIN GOTT!
[09:08:53] <theBear> course, that'll be cancelled from the record in no time flat
[09:08:58] <Lt_Lemming> DanFrederiksen admitted he was wrong
[09:09:13] <Lt_Lemming> satan WILL be ice skating to work this morning
[09:09:22] <DanFrederiksen> I was asking a question Lt_Lemming. I am never wrong :)
[09:09:34] <theBear> hehehehe asshat
[09:09:38] <Lt_Lemming> nope, back to walking
[09:09:49] <DanFrederiksen> satan will be waiting for you Lt_Lemming. don't worry about that
[09:09:52] <dunz0r> DanFrederiksen: Fairly wide spread. This is the first encounter of anyone on an irc channel not knowing what it means that I've encountered.
[09:10:03] <dunz0r> (as to my knowledge of course)
[09:10:12] <DanFrederiksen> dunz0r, noone knew what it meant
[09:10:21] * jadew thinks DanFrederiksen should make his own channel and start charging for answers, given that he knows it all and he's never wrong
[09:10:33] <Lt_Lemming> mmm, indeed
[09:10:44] <dunz0r> DanFrederiksen: It's use is widespread.
[09:10:45] <DanFrederiksen> jadew, would you pay?
[09:10:46] <Lt_Lemming> then we could all be wrong in peace
[09:10:52] <DanFrederiksen> dunz0r, so are flying pigs
[09:11:08] <dunz0r> I doubt that the use of flying pigs is widespread.
[09:11:17] <DanFrederiksen> dunz0r, sherlock eh :)
[09:11:17] <dunz0r> Or flying pigs for that matter.
[09:11:29] <jadew> DanFrederiksen, of course not, in our previous talks we dissagreed and I know _I_ am trully always right
[09:11:48] <DanFrederiksen> jadew, then perhaps that's a tiny flaw in your otherwise brilliant suggestion
[09:12:02] <dunz0r> You know I just let you all believe you're right and keep the right answers for myself, right?
[09:12:24] <theBear> dunz0r, first two buddy :)
[09:13:08] <DanFrederiksen> I don't have all the answers, just more than most and I have some that you would think are impossible to know, yet I do know
[09:13:39] <theBear> it's just brilliant psychosis, claiming oneself to always be right while deying that someone else could possibly be, just textbook, brilliance !
[09:14:07] <theBear> oh, and fucking ufos, of course, how forgetful of me
[09:14:17] * theBear has a good old fashioned giggle to hisself
[09:15:34] <jadew> ufo's are real! aliens on earth on the other hand...
[09:16:07] <DanFrederiksen> you keep forgetting that you are the one with the diagnosed mental illness theBear. you might want to tone down the rock throwing in that glass house.
[09:16:08] <theBear> oh no ! i was wrong again ! but at least i'm a big enough man to admit it :)
[09:16:30] <Lt_Lemming> DanFrederiksen, just because you are not diagnosed, doesn't mean you are healthy
[09:16:34] <theBear> illnesses ~! i told you that 5 minutes ago, you're wrong again !
[09:16:41] <jadew> haha Lt_Lemming, good observation
[09:16:57] <theBear> and also, me maybe wanting to tone it down, that's wrong too !
[09:16:59] <Lt_Lemming> and also it takes a bigger person to admit they are unhealthy, than to protest health to all comers
[09:17:41] <DanFrederiksen> many a petty person have slung amateur diagnoses at me :) I shall gladly submit to mental health questions if you would then admit you were wrong and petty
[09:17:46] <jadew> well, in all honesty tho, crazy people don't realize they are crazy, that's what makes it so special
[09:18:01] <jadew> I know, because I have several neighbours that argue with themselves day and night, on the balcony
[09:18:25] <theBear> hehehehe just like you, we're not doctors, we're not qualified to properly diagnose
[09:18:43] <theBear> ahh, i forgot how hilariously inside this guy is
[09:18:56] <DanFrederiksen> I am however qualified and I can refer to formal tests that you could use
[09:19:28] <theBear> back to the soup, which is so very large in quantity i gotta eat outta the saucepan, that i gotta eat it from there cos i don't have any bowls big enough for a single serve
[09:19:30] <Lt_Lemming> if you are qualified then scan and post your qualifications
[09:19:44] <jadew> http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt2bya68O21r4et2ho1_400.png
[09:19:58] <DanFrederiksen> theBear, could't you serve more than once..
[09:20:06] <theBear> in the meantime, those tests are ALL considered invalid if interpreted by anoyone other than a medical professional
[09:20:19] <theBear> no, i'm a fucking cripple, the kitchen is 2 rooms away, asshat
[09:20:29] <DanFrederiksen> very nice of you to say
[09:21:49] <theBear> not really
[09:22:12] <DanFrederiksen> I was being ever so slightly sarcastic :)
[09:22:25] <theBear> looked more incorrect from here
[09:23:13] <DanFrederiksen> I will leave you to your chosen darkness. Good luck
[09:23:29] <theBear> i don't need luck, it's soup
[09:39:31] <CMLinux> hey Dean!
[09:39:40] <abcminiuser> Ahoy
[09:40:11] <CMLinux> one quick question... my solution always seems to be around the corner
[09:40:16] <CMLinux> as usual
[09:41:21] <CMLinux> so, the arduino is running LUFA, when i plug it into a linux comp, i get the data i expect listening to the device with libusb
[09:41:56] <CMLinux> but, when i plug it into a windows computer, there seems to be a driver issue
[09:42:21] <CMLinux> it says the device cannont start, acl code 10 or something
[09:42:51] <CMLinux> im guessing it is because i only imlemented asynchronous reports
[09:43:46] <abcminiuser> Possible, you should be able to hook up the control request ones easily
[09:43:57] <CMLinux> i suspect the driver is sending a get status message or something over synchronous io, im not sending a response, so the driver is not starting to receive the information
[09:44:43] <CMLinux> ya, i just wanted figure out some sort of test to make sure that was the issue
[09:45:38] <CMLinux> the control request also has to be declared in the hid descriptor... right?
[09:47:22] <abcminiuser> No, it's implicit
[09:47:30] <abcminiuser> If you're using the class driver, it's transparent
[09:47:41] <abcminiuser> As long as you respond with the correct reports when requested in the callback
[09:48:36] <CMLinux> oh... so just need to add code in the proess report function... cant remember the function name
[09:48:57] <CMLinux> the one that is around create hid report
[09:49:19] <englishman> hey guys, have a question about atmega32u4, i need to detect usb insertion
[09:49:36] <englishman> but reading VBUS in USBSTA reg is always high, even though mesaured voltage is low (0.5v)
[09:50:05] <englishman> using arduino leonardo bootloader and sketch
[09:50:50] <englishman> also set OTGPAGE high, made no difference
[09:50:57] <englishman> *OTGPADE
[09:54:03] <abcminiuser> Hrm
[09:54:09] <abcminiuser> Clocked the USB engine and enabled it?
[09:55:01] <englishman> actually have not touched usb at all, just using it for arduino comms
[09:58:34] <englishman> datasheet seems to suggest VBUS should be working even if USBE=0
[16:26:49] <braincracker> h
[20:00:15] <braincracker> Insane Russians Climbing Up a Tower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYQuOoElLq8
[20:00:17] <braincracker> :)
[22:46:48] <Casper> braincracker: I knew it! you're the guy in green!
[22:58:25] <braincracker> :)
[23:08:55] <Casper> http://i.imgur.com/vPcWVqJ.jpg ← I hope to never be THAT patient...
