#avr | Logs for 2013-05-25

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[01:28:35] <thetruthisoutthe> Tom_itx
[01:29:07] <thetruthisoutthe> dark clouds accumulating on the sky
[05:56:30] <GuShH> sup DanFrederiksen
[06:02:41] <DanFrederiksen> hi
[06:23:30] <Fleck> can I erase flash using HVP?
[06:23:52] <Fleck> I can read and set fuses with HVP, but I can't reprogramm with ISP
[06:29:20] <twnqx> you should be able to run chip erase, yes
[06:29:30] <twnqx> but if you can't ISP you probably have a fuse preventingthat
[06:29:58] <twnqx> either disabled the reset pin so you gain another IO
[06:30:11] <twnqx> or disabled ISP
[06:30:29] <Fleck> Signature is: 9007; LFuse: 6A, HFuse: FF, EFuse: FF
[06:30:30] <twnqx> beware that fuses are inverted => 0=active
[06:31:33] <Fleck> this is with HVP
[06:31:43] <Fleck> tried different fuses - got set all
[06:31:48] <Fleck> but with isp - no go!
[06:32:17] <Fleck> there is a flash that does sq w...
[06:32:26] <Fleck> seems like it messes up isp
[06:34:10] <Fleck> so - need to erase flash so that sq w is disabled :D
[06:34:29] <twnqx> that does... what?
[06:35:22] <Fleck> sqare wave
[06:35:30] <Fleck> *square
[06:35:38] <twnqx> that won't be a problem
[06:35:45] <twnqx> during ISP the chip is held in reset
[06:36:23] <twnqx> the one problem i ever had (and that forced my to reprogram fuses in HVP) was that i needed the reset pin as IO
[06:38:25] <Fleck> well, it is - tried some code - and sometimes I had to tap 4x FLASH button to get it uploaded, because SN was red wrong etc... I even flashed other code, after that I had no problem reading SN and set fuses etc... so it DOES mess up ISP
[06:38:57] <twnqx> that soudns more like your reset line isn't stable
[06:39:21] <twnqx> did you pull a beaky on it and connect it straight to VCC with no pullup? :P
[06:39:34] <Fleck> ?
[06:39:47] <twnqx> if reset is asserted
[06:39:50] <twnqx> all IO pins are inputs
[06:40:00] <twnqx> and core doesn't execute anything
[06:40:09] <twnqx> no chance it will mess up anything
[06:40:58] <twnqx> the only things that can interfere is your external circuitry
[06:41:11] <Fleck> don't have any
[06:41:31] <beaky> hello
[06:41:36] <twnqx> hi there
[06:41:37] <beaky> how many times can I program my avr before it dies?
[06:41:50] <twnqx> official numbers are 10000
[06:42:09] <twnqx> (in the one datasheet that i read)
[06:42:24] <Fleck> twnqx: my reset is ok, tried different avr - working great!
[06:42:37] <beaky> so avr is used in cars?
[06:42:50] <twnqx> maybe
[06:43:11] <beaky> atmel says that avr is the world's most successful mcu brand :D what does that mean?
[06:43:32] <twnqx> nothing
[07:04:28] <Fleck> so twnqx. how to erase flash with HVSP?
[07:04:36] <Fleck> can't find any info @ google
[07:05:20] <Fleck> https://sites.google.com/site/wayneholder/attiny-fuse-reset << I wonder, where did this guy got those HFUSE and LFUSE values :/
[07:07:32] <twnqx> they vary between data sheets
[07:07:40] <twnqx> well, each chip has its own defaults
[07:07:56] <twnqx> and i would probably just drop it into my stk600 and select hvp...
[07:08:22] <twnqx> Fleck: out of curiosity... are you german?
[07:08:31] <Fleck> nope
[07:08:43] <twnqx> hm ok
[07:08:54] <twnqx> do you know what your nick means in german? :P
[07:09:02] <Fleck> yes
[07:09:17] <twnqx> righty, then
[07:09:30] * specing wipes off the Fleck
[07:09:36] <Fleck> and I don't have stk600
[07:09:41] <Fleck> specing: :D
[07:14:23] * Fleck pokes tzanger
[07:15:46] <twnqx> theBear: you're idea of symmetric PFC will probably end quickly in a blown fuse and/or smoke
[07:16:42] <twnqx> Fleck: did you try to grab default fuse settings from your chip's data sheet and set them with HVP?
[07:16:55] <Fleck> yep
[07:17:04] <twnqx> and still no ISP programming? :/
[07:17:10] <Fleck> nope
[07:17:15] <twnqx> strange, very.
[07:17:22] <Fleck> and still my code outputs sq. wave :D
[07:17:38] <twnqx> even when you tie reset to gnd?
[07:17:56] <Fleck> didn't try that
[07:18:44] <twnqx> you could try to manually do that, and if it stops outputting the sqw, program isp
[07:19:00] <Fleck> ok
[07:20:33] <Fleck> twnqx: sqw stops, ISP not working
[07:20:40] <twnqx> wow
[07:22:19] <twnqx> what chip is that, tiny13a?
[07:22:30] <Fleck> just tiny13
[07:24:11] <twnqx> did you detune the osc on that chip? :P
[07:24:21] <Fleck> nope
[07:25:12] <twnqx> hmmm
[07:25:18] <twnqx> 6a in low fuse
[07:25:36] <Fleck> [14:16:39] <Fleck> Signature is: 9007; LFuse: 6A, HFuse: FF, EFuse: FF
[07:25:39] <twnqx> ah now, swapped nibbles mentally
[07:25:41] <Fleck> this is what HVP told me
[07:26:06] <twnqx> that's default, yes
[07:26:27] <Fleck> tried ckdiv8 - sqw sounds lower :D
[07:29:11] <twnqx> and the other chip is also a tiny13?
[07:29:15] <twnqx> the one that works
[07:30:02] <Fleck> ?
[07:30:16] <twnqx> you said you have a chip that you can write with ISP
[07:30:30] <Fleck> no, its 168
[07:30:53] <twnqx> you connect the programmer like in datasheet page 105?
[07:31:00] <twnqx> i mean, you programmed it once, somehow, right?
[07:31:40] <Fleck> many times
[07:32:07] <twnqx> the only things i can imagine ever going wrong is faulty connection from the programmer, reset fuse bit, ISP fuse bit, lock fuse bits
[07:33:09] <Fleck> yeah - lock fuse bits, how do I check those?
[07:33:44] <twnqx> depends on what you use to program
[07:34:56] <megal0maniac_afk> Also they're cleared on chip erase
[07:36:33] <Fleck> I can't erase chip :(
[07:36:34] <twnqx> well, he would like to do a HVP chip erase :P
[07:36:40] <Fleck> yep
[07:36:49] <twnqx> but since i neither know his programmer nor his software i have no idea how
[07:37:14] <Fleck> yes you do...
[07:37:15] <Fleck> https://sites.google.com/site/wayneholder/attiny-fuse-reset
[07:39:40] <twnqx> lol
[07:39:43] <twnqx> come on
[07:39:52] <twnqx> you see the read fuses function
[07:40:05] <twnqx> that has the commands to read fuses
[07:40:15] <twnqx> you have the data sheet, page 110
[07:40:16] <Fleck> sure
[07:40:24] <twnqx> that has high voltage serial commands
[07:40:39] <Fleck> ohh
[07:40:43] <Fleck> never saw that one
[07:40:44] <megal0maniac> Just open up the serial console..
[07:41:04] <megal0maniac> By the looks of things, it will start when the serial console is open.
[07:41:16] <megal0maniac> 19200 baud to see debug info
[07:41:19] <twnqx> i guess you can derive the chip erase function from here on? :)
[07:41:21] <Fleck> megal0maniac: no problem with fuses
[07:41:30] <megal0maniac> Lol
[07:41:31] <Fleck> twnqx: will try! :d THX
[07:41:37] <megal0maniac> But that isn't really a programmer :)
[07:56:38] <beaky> my cat broke my stk500
[07:56:44] <beaky> what do I do now?
[07:57:08] <beaky> at least I still have my dragon intact
[07:57:36] <Fleck> twnqx: success! ISP is working OK after chip erase!!!
[07:58:46] <twnqx> :) congrats
[07:59:18] <Fleck> thx, and thx for help, feel kinda stupid, googled for HVP instructions etc... :D
[07:59:27] <Fleck> did not saw them in datasheet :/
[08:00:04] <twnqx> well, it's HVS (the P in HVP is parallel :P(
[08:05:24] <Fleck> HVSP yes
[08:06:03] <twnqx> so, how many hours have you now spent on regaining control of a 1€ chip? :P
[08:06:53] <Fleck> many :)
[08:07:05] <Fleck> but I learned some things too...
[08:07:14] <twnqx> that's always good
[08:07:23] <Fleck> I am n00b in avr stuff
[08:08:56] <beaky> learni is fun
[08:08:58] <beaky> learning*
[08:09:07] <beaky> today I learned to keep electronics away from felines
[08:10:44] * twnqx pats beaky
[08:11:11] <twnqx> maybe you should to some high voltage experiments to teach your felines to stay away from electronics on their own :P
[08:12:07] <megal0maniac> twnqx: It's HVPP / HVSP (High voltage parallel/serial programming)
[08:12:15] <megal0maniac> HVP is an accepted umbrella term :)
[08:12:21] <beaky> what is HVP?
[08:12:37] <beaky> I thought avrs only live below 5V
[08:12:40] <megal0maniac> High Voltage Programming. When you put 12V on the reset pin
[08:12:47] <megal0maniac> beaky: The reset pin is special
[08:12:58] <twnqx> don't confuse him more
[08:13:18] <megal0maniac> I wouldn't worry about 12V. He has a cat :)
[08:13:20] <beaky> what happens when you feed that many volts to RESET?
[08:13:53] <megal0maniac> beaky: http://www.github.com/abcminiuser/avr-tutorials/blob/master/ProgrammingMethods/Output/ProgrammingMethods.pdf?raw=true
[08:14:16] <megal0maniac> It's just a different programming method. You shouldn't need it (for now)
[08:14:33] <beaky> so method 1: ISP, method 2: JTAG, and method 3 is HVP?
[08:14:45] <twnqx> yes
[08:15:09] <twnqx> both 1 and 2 need a "normal" reset pin
[08:15:30] <twnqx> on some very low pin count chips you often will reassign the reset pin as IO pin
[08:15:39] <twnqx> which means ISP and JTAG will fail
[08:16:19] <megal0maniac> 2 and 3 provide their own clocks
[08:16:47] <twnqx> and that
[08:17:21] <megal0maniac> twnqx: RikusW modified the STK500 protocol slightly for his board. You can still access a chip over ISP with DWEN fuse set, just need a 10K pull-up :)
[08:18:00] <twnqx> uh
[08:18:03] <RikusW> actually id didn't really modify stk500 I just did the dW disable extra
[08:18:09] <twnqx> if the chip doesn't react to reset, how can you program it?
[08:18:16] <twnqx> ahh
[08:18:40] <RikusW> though I did add command to use SPI directly will in stk500 mode
[08:18:48] <twnqx> man
[08:18:55] <twnqx> COULD TI PLEASE FIX THEIR WEB SERVERS
[08:19:42] <twnqx> or can any of you access http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/slup175/slup175.pdf?
[08:19:57] <twnqx> and upload it somewhere for me :/
[08:20:08] <RikusW> twnqx: JTAG don't really need RST
[08:20:26] <RikusW> unless the software messes with JTAGEN in the status register....
[08:21:13] <RikusW> err JTD bit
[08:21:30] <megal0maniac> twnqx: Here: http://atinyhedgehog.za.net/slup175.pdf
[08:21:55] <twnqx> :/
[08:22:16] <megal0maniac> Well nearly
[08:22:22] <megal0maniac> Okay now
[08:22:41] <twnqx> thank you
[08:22:51] <megal0maniac> np
[08:23:49] <RikusW> megal0maniac: I might be adding Altera blaster capability to U2S... the JTAG pinout for both is the same
[08:23:58] <megal0maniac> Whoo!
[08:24:10] <RikusW> I have a MAX II cpld board I got for $10
[08:24:10] <megal0maniac> Don't have an FPGA, but whoo! :)
[08:24:26] <RikusW> Now if I can get those specs....
[08:24:37] <RikusW> or maybe a generic JTAG adapter...
[08:25:02] <RikusW> megal0maniac: I got the cpld from buybuyfast.com
[08:25:25] <RikusW> it seems more of a hybrid fpga though
[08:25:34] <RikusW> EPM240T100C5N
[08:25:53] <RikusW> http://www.altera.com/devices/cpld/max2/mx2-index.jsp
[08:26:33] <RikusW> seems I'll have to do a _LOT_ of reading bofore I can do anything with that board......
[08:26:53] <RikusW> and download that 4GB Quartus sw...
[08:29:36] <twnqx> lol @ this doc
[08:29:44] <RikusW> http://www.altera.com/download/board-layout-test/bsdl/max2/max2-index.jsp
[08:29:54] <RikusW> and now I want the IEEE 1532 spec :S :(
[08:30:11] <twnqx> they use an altera epld for controlling the mosfet drive...
[08:30:58] <beaky> How do I split a 16-bit unsigned value to two 8-bit registers?
[08:31:16] <twnqx> you let your compiler handle that
[08:31:23] <beaky> ah
[08:31:41] <beaky> my timer has a TCNT1 high and low registers
[08:32:46] <twnqx> low = u16 & 255; high = u16 >> 8;
[08:32:52] <twnqx> look at the order, it might matter
[08:33:09] <RikusW> just use TCNT1 = value;
[08:33:34] <RikusW> (you need to write H then L if doing it manually)
[08:33:40] <beaky> oh
[08:33:45] <beaky> I didn't know you can do that
[08:33:48] <RikusW> TCNT1 = v; is much easier
[08:34:03] <beaky> wow this is awesome
[09:14:44] <Fleck> twnqx: are you german?
[09:17:34] <twnqx> aye
[09:18:39] <Fleck> do you know what fleck in english means? :D
[09:19:17] <twnqx> i could translate it to english, but i guess it has an english meaning of its own?
[09:19:45] <Fleck> yep
[09:20:22] <twnqx> then i don't
[09:21:05] <robotustra> hi
[09:21:44] <OndraSter> hi
[09:23:38] <robotustra> i still have an issue with ISP
[09:25:27] <beaky> if my atmega has only 2 interrupt pins, how do I make it interrupt on other pins?
[09:30:04] <robotustra> beaky I think you can emulate interrupts on other pins but you must poll this pins
[09:30:55] <robotustra> but the behavior will not exactly as interrupt pins
[09:32:14] <robotustra> you can add multiplexer on this to pins
[09:32:37] <robotustra> but it's a work around
[09:34:56] <beaky> ah
[09:35:03] <beaky> so in my ISR, I poll the pins
[09:35:18] <beaky> ah this sucks; why can't they make every input pin an interrupt pin?
[09:35:27] <beaky> a possible interrupt pin*
[09:37:17] <robotustra> because it complicates the schematics
[09:37:44] <twnqx> i think they "kind of" did that in mega
[09:38:03] <twnqx> just you get an interrupt for any pin change, then you need to figure out yourself which one changed
[09:38:29] <Tom_itx> too complicated and not every chip needs an interrupt on every pin. that would be silly
[09:39:22] <Tom_itx> add too many features and they become so complex nobody wants to try and tackle them
[09:41:16] <twnqx> like arms? :X
[10:11:27] <robotustra> Does somebody worked with LUFACDC bootloader?
[10:11:37] <robotustra> Does somebody work with LUFACDC bootloader?
[10:11:45] <twnqx> i would kind of bet that abcminiuser does :P
[10:11:49] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser has
[10:13:46] <robotustra> I cannon bypass ISP after programming
[10:14:17] <Casper> robotustra: you mean disable the ISP programming?
[10:14:24] <robotustra> no
[10:14:52] <robotustra> yes
[10:15:06] <robotustra> I want to jump to program on power on
[10:15:19] <robotustra> instead of jump to ISP
[10:15:31] <Casper> isp = mosi/miso/sck/reset
[10:15:48] <robotustra> oh no
[10:15:58] <robotustra> 1 sec
[10:16:11] <Casper> so, you want to program the bootloader fuses, for the reset vector
[10:16:23] <robotustra> I have this board https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11117
[10:16:26] <Casper> by default, the fuses are set so it boot at 0x0000
[10:16:51] <Tom_itx> he already had a bootloader in it Casper
[10:17:00] <robotustra> yes
[10:17:21] <robotustra> and I want to bypass it if I already loaded a program
[10:17:22] <Tom_itx> you need to check the boot fuses with ISP
[10:17:37] <Tom_itx> or mod the bootloader probably
[10:18:25] <robotustra> may be there is something specific about LUFACDC
[10:18:46] <robotustra> may be I have to put something on some pin
[10:19:23] <robotustra> because according to the description it should jump to program on power on if there is any
[10:19:35] <robotustra> but it doesn't
[10:19:49] <Casper> robotustra: when there is a bootloader, it should boot to it. the bootloader should check for a condition (a jumper, a key stroke within a few seconds or alike) then if there is no such condition then it boot the main program
[10:20:11] <robotustra> sure
[10:20:14] <robotustra> When you power the board on, your application will run by default. If there's no application in program memory then the bootloader will run. If you have an application already on the IC and you want to reprogram, simply press the on-board reset button and the bootloader will run for 7 seconds to allow time for programming.
[10:20:29] <robotustra> that's exactly what I expect
[10:20:41] <Casper> if it do not jump it mean 3 things: 1) "program" condition reached, 2) no program flashed, 3) bug
[10:21:05] <robotustra> look
[10:21:34] <robotustra> If I program the board - the application is running
[10:21:44] <robotustra> because I see it working
[10:22:05] <Casper> so the program condition is "reset by reset pin"
[10:22:08] <robotustra> If I press reset or retract the power
[10:22:59] * Casper wonders if your board have a BOD...
[10:24:17] <robotustra> bootloader stuck in infinit loop because it cannot detect that application is loaded
[10:24:36] <robotustra> what os BOD?
[10:24:41] <robotustra> *is
[10:25:15] <robotustra> Brown-out detector?
[10:25:44] <robotustra> I don't think that there is a power defect
[10:25:56] <robotustra> I have solid 5V here
[10:26:11] <robotustra> I chech with oscilloscope
[10:28:02] <robotustra> as soon as I understand here is the source of bootloader https://github.com/SFE-Jordan/Sparkfun_32U4_Breakout_Board/blob/master/Bootloaders/CDC/BootloaderCDC.c
[10:30:11] <Casper> at power on, it take some time for the voltage to stabilise and reach your 5V
[10:30:44] <Casper> you may have a chip on the board that reset the avr... or a capacitor... or just an unwanted feature of the bootloader
[10:31:29] <robotustra> hm
[10:32:10] <robotustra> what if I have to turn on watch dog
[10:32:32] <robotustra> if ((MCUSR & (1 << WDRF)) && (MagicBootKey == MAGIC_BOOT_KEY))
[10:32:32] <robotustra> JumpToApplication |= true;
[10:33:38] <robotustra> comment: If the reset source was the bootloader and the key is correct, clear it and jump to the application
[11:43:27] <beaky> hello
[11:43:48] <beaky> I paid 35 bucks for a 40-pin ZIF socket... did I get ripped off? :)
[11:50:28] <twnqx> yes, horribly
[11:51:14] <twnqx> http://www.ebay.de/itm/Universal-40Pin-ZIF-DIP-IC-Test-Board-Socket-Textool-/270697486352?pt=Bauteile&hash=item3f06d3d810
[11:51:18] <twnqx> 2.99€ from hong kong
[11:51:57] <twnqx> and even that is expensive.
[11:55:00] <beaky> argh
[11:55:01] <robotustra> is abcminiuser often here?
[11:55:12] <beaky> I will never buy from local electronics stores ever again
[11:56:44] <robotustra> beaky, just consult about prices before you go to stole
[11:56:47] <robotustra> store
[11:57:10] <robotustra> check the prices in internet
[11:58:05] <robotustra> if you can wait 2 weeks for delivery from China it's ok
[11:58:35] <robotustra> but sometimes you should pay for speed :)
[12:04:38] <MrMobius> hello twnqx
[12:21:00] <beaky> How do you solder things? I bought some pin stuff to put on my dragon, but I don't know how to solder
[12:21:03] <beaky> :(
[12:21:46] <twnqx> well, to be fair
[12:21:53] <twnqx> an original 3M 40pin ZIF
[12:21:59] <twnqx> costs 22€ at digikey
[12:23:29] <twnqx> beaky: there are tutorials on youtube which you will want to consult
[12:24:05] <tzanger> beaky: there are literally dozens of YouTube videos on learning to solder. don't solder on the dragon until you've practiced on some junk boards first
[12:24:18] <twnqx> definitely that
[12:24:40] <tzanger> soldering takes a bit of practice but its really not hard. learning how to drive standard is harder
[12:25:16] <tzanger> kind of like sex. keep the tip clean. :-)
[12:25:22] <tzanger> and don't rush.
[12:27:12] <tzanger> #1 thing every newb does wrong is touching the solder to the iron instead of using the iron to heat the joint and touching the solder to the hot joint
[12:27:57] <tzanger> takes a bit of practice to learn when you need to "wet" the iron with solder and when you need to give up and flux.
[12:29:02] <Tom_itx> you gotta have a little on the iron to help 'wick' the heat over though
[12:29:48] <beaky> is soldering dangerous to do in a home with a cat? :D
[12:30:03] <twnqx> don't leave the iron unattended.
[12:30:04] <Tom_itx> heat both halves of the connection evenly too or you'll get solder on one piece and not on the other and it will look soldered but won't be
[12:30:18] <Tom_itx> beaky, not unless you chase the cat with it
[12:30:36] <Tom_itx> it will learn quick about 'hot' and leave it alone
[12:30:39] <Horologium> getting the cat up to temperature can be hazardous.
[12:30:42] <Horologium> and the cat won't like it much.
[12:30:58] <Tom_itx> the hair will grow back
[12:31:04] <beaky> my cat loves to chew on my mcus
[12:31:09] <beaky> and all those jumper wires
[12:31:23] <twnqx> ... are you sure it's a cat and not a rabbit or rat?
[12:31:28] <twnqx> or hamster?
[12:31:32] <thetruthisoutthe> chew on this ;>>
[12:31:33] <Tom_itx> so keep the cat outta the room
[12:31:36] <thetruthisoutthe> soldering iron tip
[12:31:57] <beaky> alright time to solder my avr dragon :D
[12:32:03] <twnqx> don't :(
[12:32:06] <beaky> oh wait I don't have a soldering iron
[12:32:08] <twnqx> learn first...
[12:32:40] <twnqx> sometimes i wonder
[12:34:54] <Horologium> use a pencil and practice,,,once you figure out how to do it then buy a soldering iron.
[12:35:01] <Horologium> or you could bake the board and melt the solder.
[12:35:08] <Horologium> but,,,,,not recommended really.
[12:35:20] <twnqx> weld-soldering with AC?
[12:35:47] <Horologium> bah..just use a car battery.
[12:35:48] <MrM0bius> soldering jumk parts is a good suggestion
[12:35:51] <Horologium> welding with DC!
[12:44:16] <RikusW1> http://ixo-jtag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ixo-jtag/sfweb/archive/wired_f326.jpg?view=log
[12:44:21] <RikusW1> some tiny soldering
[12:44:49] <beaky> I love the avr dragon, it is the best
[12:45:08] <robotustra> does anyone know how to connect ISP programmer to SPI pins?
[12:45:20] <Tom_itx> sure
[12:45:29] <robotustra> USB-ASP progremmer
[12:46:06] <Badaboom> Hi
[12:46:13] <robotustra> I have 10 pins output and there is only 6 pins on the board
[12:46:15] <robotustra> hi
[12:46:23] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/using_avrdude_index.php
[12:46:28] <Tom_itx> isp pinout at the bottom of the page
[12:46:38] <robotustra> thanks
[12:46:40] <Tom_itx> both 6 and 10 are there
[12:46:50] <Tom_itx> lots of unused on the 10 pin
[12:50:31] <robotustra> only 1 is NC
[12:50:35] <robotustra> 4 GND
[12:50:48] <Tom_itx> it was an led pin
[12:50:51] <Horologium> so get rid of 3 of them.
[12:51:03] <Tom_itx> use the 6 pin connecors
[12:51:13] <Tom_itx> waste of pins otherwize
[12:51:14] <robotustra> sure
[12:51:20] <robotustra> there is a question
[12:51:27] <Tom_itx> there is an answer
[12:51:44] <robotustra> on a board I have MISO underlined
[12:52:34] <Tom_itx> no question there...
[12:52:42] <robotustra> Is this a mistake? because on the pinout picture there is no inversion
[12:52:43] <Horologium> Tom_itx, I used to use the extra pins on the 10pin header for rs232 connection..programmer and interface/debug port in one.
[12:53:01] <Tom_itx> robotustra just ignore it
[12:53:04] <robotustra> ok
[12:53:10] <Horologium> why would it be underlined? a line over means inverted.
[12:53:29] <Tom_itx> no, it means it's wearing a hat
[12:53:31] <robotustra> yes the line is UNDER :)
[12:53:46] <robotustra> that's a joke
[12:54:38] <robotustra> I know that inversion is usially the dash above the letters
[12:55:10] <robotustra> I'm about to erase bootloader from chip
[12:55:34] <Badaboom> do it
[12:55:49] <robotustra> :)
[12:55:52] <robotustra> no
[12:55:54] <Badaboom> lol
[12:56:08] <robotustra> first I have to read it
[12:56:20] <robotustra> and make backup
[12:56:40] <robotustra> I'm stupid but not to that extent
[12:57:56] <Tom_itx> and verify it
[13:10:02] <robotustra> oh
[13:10:26] <robotustra> I know that does that dash mean - it's the first pin
[13:29:25] <robotustra> well, I even read something... Is bootloader is usually starting from address 0x7000 ?
[13:29:37] <robotustra> on 32k chip?
[13:30:02] <robotustra> it should be by the end of flash memory?
[13:31:27] <theBear> been a while, i think most avrs got a fuse to select from 2 or 3 set places
[13:33:02] <theBear> so long as it doesn't start at first program address and everyone knows where it is, it's fine, and generally at the start of the chip makes more sense than the end, that way real code doesn't have to think about it, you can just start the counter at the start of the real code area and go go go
[13:35:27] <robotustra> I just tell what I see - small blink program in the beginning of flash and big code chunk starting from address 0x7000
[13:35:47] <robotustra> all other memory is empty
[13:38:48] <theBear> oh i see, the question at the end was a confirmation, i didn't think to workout where 7000 WAS in 32k :)
[13:39:01] <theBear> umm, i guess that's one of the selectable places i mentioned
[13:50:25] <RikusW1> megal0maniac_afk: seems the ixo-jtag project already does what I have in mind :)
[13:50:28] <beaky> wheredo you guys buy your electronic components?
[13:50:52] <theBear> i kinda make a hobby of only using salvaged ones except for fancy caps these days
[13:51:09] <beaky> ah
[13:51:12] <theBear> can make almost anything with a couple dead atx psus a crt and maybe an old video or something
[13:51:30] <thetruthisoutthe> h
[13:51:34] <beaky> how do you pull out components from dead atxs?
[13:51:38] <thetruthisoutthe> RikusW1 <= got yourself an altera? :)
[13:51:56] <RikusW1> I got a MAX II
[13:52:00] <RikusW1> EPM240T100
[13:52:08] <RikusW1> for $10 at buybuyfast.com
[13:52:10] <thetruthisoutthe> you can use your byteblaster with the demo version of their multi-gigabyte software i think
[13:52:24] <RikusW1> I don't have a byteblaster....
[13:52:29] <thetruthisoutthe> build one :)
[13:52:30] <thetruthisoutthe> simple
[13:52:36] <RikusW1> link ?
[13:52:44] <thetruthisoutthe> mm gotto find it
[13:53:20] <RikusW> the parallel port version ?
[13:53:33] <thetruthisoutthe> yes
[13:53:37] <thetruthisoutthe> that is the byteblaster
[13:54:01] <RikusW> its a pity they dropped masterblaster support its a serial port one... I already have working CDC code....
[13:54:52] <RikusW> I must still download Quartus II web edition...
[13:55:57] <thetruthisoutthe> RikusW <= here's your altera byteblaster http://elm.eeng.dcu.ie/~ee404/UP1Setup/dsbyte.pdf
[13:56:09] <RikusW> thanks :)
[13:56:20] <thetruthisoutthe> np
[13:56:39] <RikusW> net is slow tonight for some reason :S
[13:57:30] <RikusW> used to get >100KiB/s now its more like 5....
[13:58:03] <thetruthisoutthe> users download their porn and torrents after they get home from work
[13:58:16] <RikusW> www.ixo.de/info
[13:58:16] <RikusW>
[13:58:18] <thetruthisoutthe> ISP graphs show it clearly
[13:59:32] <RikusW> I didn't realize Altera published that :)
[13:59:37] <RikusW> very nice
[13:59:50] <RikusW> how about their usb blaster version ? :-D
[13:59:58] <RikusW> seems it uses FT245
[14:00:01] <thetruthisoutthe> it is probably leaked secret plan :)
[14:00:33] <thetruthisoutthe> no idea
[14:00:44] <thetruthisoutthe> i never had an altera yet btw
[14:01:48] <RikusW> the CPLD I've got seems to be more of a hybrid, almost a real FPGA
[14:02:27] <thetruthisoutthe> i kind of liked the idea of their MAX IV too
[14:02:40] <thetruthisoutthe> or MAX V
[14:03:03] <thetruthisoutthe> compared to the macrocell thing from xilinx
[14:03:25] <thetruthisoutthe> but macrocells can give more predictable timings
[14:03:53] <thetruthisoutthe> they are more limited though
[14:16:45] <robotustra> I finally did it old way
[14:17:18] <robotustra> it seems to me that LUFACDC is not stable yet
[14:17:26] <RikusW> thetruthisoutthe: you don't happen to have the byteblaster II schematic too ? :)
[14:19:30] <RikusW> thetruthisoutthe: thanks for that pdf, I had now idea they used such a simple circuit :)
[14:19:31] <Horologium> that byteblaster looks an awful lot like an stk200 clone with one extra line through.
[14:20:17] <thetruthisoutthe> RikusW <= no :( but now i do since you got my attention on it
[14:20:23] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[14:20:57] <thetruthisoutthe> http://www.altera.com/literature/ug/ug_bbii.pdf
[14:21:07] <thetruthisoutthe> the altera byteblaster 2
[14:24:18] <Horologium> now if I only had an altera device to play with.
[14:24:54] <thetruthisoutthe> yeah i feel the same, also if it were bundled with a free development software
[14:25:06] <thetruthisoutthe> (same goes for xilinx)
[14:25:13] * RikusW seems to be blind :-P
[14:25:27] <RikusW> I already have that doc, but didn't see the schematic :-P
[14:25:35] <thetruthisoutthe> hehe
[14:25:41] <thetruthisoutthe> it is in it
[14:25:47] <thetruthisoutthe> called block diagram
[14:25:48] <RikusW> saw it just now
[14:26:34] <RikusW> guess I'll have to install the PCI 2xserial + parallel card to make that work :)
[14:26:46] <thetruthisoutthe> no
[14:26:55] <RikusW> fortunately I got only cheaply for $7
[14:27:05] <thetruthisoutthe> just get an old celeron from a junkyard
[14:27:14] <RikusW> my pc don't have a lpt port...
[14:27:21] <thetruthisoutthe> old celerons do have
[14:27:22] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[14:27:41] <thetruthisoutthe> they do not even need a case, plug it together on the floor and it works
[14:27:53] <Horologium> screw it to the wall!
[14:27:56] <Horologium> call it art.
[14:28:00] <thetruthisoutthe> yea
[14:28:35] <Horologium> neuvo post modern post apocalyptic junkyard look.
[14:28:43] <thetruthisoutthe> i prefer a pentium II 600 with passive cooling, no fans
[14:29:10] <thetruthisoutthe> silent computer for programming anything
[14:29:16] <Horologium> bah.
[14:29:27] <Horologium> nice little 386 running minimal linux.
[14:29:34] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[14:30:02] <thetruthisoutthe> haven't seen any of those since years
[14:30:07] <Horologium> have one
[14:30:08] <Horologium> still works.
[14:30:14] <thetruthisoutthe> even pentium I is phasing out
[14:30:17] <beaky> I want to stop using windows and start using linux to develop my avr programs; what distro do you guys recommend? I guess the ideal would be one where it's easy to setup the avr-gcc toolchain, avrdude, some Makefile templates, and some kind of EDA, all bootable from a VM or live disk
[14:30:18] <Horologium> complete with a 100MB harddrive.
[14:30:30] <Horologium> beaky, I use debian.
[14:30:44] <beaky> ah
[14:30:45] <Horologium> apt-get install avr-gcc avr-libc avr-binutils avrdude
[14:30:46] <thetruthisoutthe> beginners prefer ubuntu
[14:30:57] <Horologium> that's all there is to installing the avr tools on debian, or ubuntu.
[14:31:04] <beaky> ubuntu seems a bit heavy on the machine, with its default graphical shell
[14:31:16] <Horologium> although ubuntu has older versions of the avr toolchain.
[14:31:25] <thetruthisoutthe> beaky <= xfce is the way to go
[14:32:33] <beaky> ah I love xfce
[14:32:39] <thetruthisoutthe> forget kde and gnome
[14:32:40] <beaky> I use it with archlinux as my desktop
[14:33:23] <thetruthisoutthe> and what is wrong with your already working linux then?
[14:33:33] <beaky> maybe I don't even need a DE since all the linux avr tools are commmand-line based
[14:33:44] <thetruthisoutthe> install avr-gcc and avrdude and you have your avr development system
[14:34:03] <beaky> oh wait I need an EDA suite, so I guess I need xfce
[14:34:07] * RikusW got Mint Mate 14 (Nadia)
[14:34:37] <RikusW> running XP in a virtualbox too, to use AS4 :)
[14:34:50] <thetruthisoutthe> i prefer xfce, but for programming, even an mc editor works.
[14:34:57] <RikusW> vim ?
[14:35:02] <beaky> I love vim
[14:35:24] <thetruthisoutthe> or ed, vim
[14:35:43] <thetruthisoutthe> vim is terminal app.
[14:37:07] <thetruthisoutthe> so unless you want to draw schematics, you don't need graphics system either
[14:37:35] <beaky> I also want to browse the web :D
[14:37:42] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[14:37:48] <thetruthisoutthe> links
[14:37:50] <beaky> there's command-line browsers like links/lynx
[14:38:09] <thetruthisoutthe> ugly but mostly work
[14:38:30] <beaky> but those are not great for interacting with websites (login, viewing vids and pictures, reading documents) :( I guess I'll go with some kind of DE or wm
[14:38:39] <beaky> since I will want some schematic editor thingy anyway :D
[14:39:21] <thetruthisoutthe> RikusW <= btw i just summoned a dapa programmer from an old printer cable, and hooked up my atmega to it for programming, worked instantly
[14:40:11] <thetruthisoutthe> i even took the time and connected 4 resistors in series
[14:41:26] <beaky> the avr dragon is very nifty (even though it comes with nothing out of the box :P), what can't it do compared to the AVR One or the jtag 3 ?
[14:41:50] <thetruthisoutthe> well this works only with old pc that has a pc parallel port
[14:43:42] <RikusW> (btw I forgot, my PC do have 1 serial and 1 parallel header onboard...)
[14:44:31] <RikusW> beaky: avrone can to realtime code tracing
[14:44:46] <RikusW> the dragon can do HVPP which the jtag3 can't
[14:45:08] <RikusW> you'll have to solder in a 2x10 header for that to work though
[14:45:13] <OndraSter> jtagice3 is debugger only
[14:45:16] <OndraSter> or does it do programming too?
[14:47:18] <RikusW> ofc it do programming
[14:47:34] <RikusW> but not HVPP
[14:48:53] <beaky> I wish the dragon came with more out of the box, like wires and actual pins through all those empty holes that you are supposed to plug & solder yourself ^^
[14:50:23] <RikusW> I soldered only the HVPP header
[14:50:35] <RikusW> leaving the ic sockets alone....
[14:50:51] <RikusW> beaky: you can easily make 2x5 ribbon cables
[14:51:00] <RikusW> and 2x3 for ISP
[14:51:47] <beaky> ah
[14:52:00] <thetruthisoutthe> i prefer UDMA mode ribbon wiring ;>
[14:52:41] <thetruthisoutthe> beaky <= yeah, get an old floppy cable or something like that
[14:53:00] <thetruthisoutthe> you only need connectors then
[14:53:01] * RikusW got 50 floppy cables around :-P
[14:53:07] <thetruthisoutthe> cool
[14:53:23] <RikusW> some are even new
[14:53:36] <thetruthisoutthe> that is like 100+ programming cables
[14:53:52] <OndraSter> I got buttload of them too
[14:54:01] <OndraSter> I was always given "a box of hardware"
[14:54:17] <thetruthisoutthe> the treasure
[15:07:17] <RikusW> a/ping rikusw
[15:07:30] <RikusW> just checking my line :0
[15:07:32] <RikusW> :)
[15:11:29] <megal0maniac_afk> PONG RikusW
[15:11:38] <RikusW> heh, working :)
[15:12:23] <thetruthisoutthe> syn
[15:14:27] <RikusW> altera dropped support fo the masterblaster, it is serial based
[15:14:37] <RikusW> would have been perfect to emulate that on U2S...
[15:15:16] <thetruthisoutthe> there are serial port atmel programmers too, dasa, dasa3, but they are slower
[15:15:17] <megal0maniac> Aw lame
[15:15:32] <megal0maniac> thetruthisoutthe: STK500 is a serial port programmer...
[15:15:41] <megal0maniac> (In the context of this conversation)
[15:16:09] <RikusW> megal0maniac_afk: go buy a usb blaster at RS :-P
[15:16:10] <RikusW> its just R3500 !
[15:16:10] <RikusW> $300
[15:16:20] <megal0maniac> HAH! No.
[15:16:48] <megal0maniac> Maybe the $45 one from itead. It also emulates a saleae logic and a usbee ax
[15:16:55] <megal0maniac> 3 in one :)
[15:17:13] <megal0maniac> Not guaranteed to work properly in any of its modes
[15:18:15] <thetruthisoutthe> there should be a magic progrmmer that conencts to usb and capable of acting like an atmel programmer, altera byteblaster, xilinx parallel cable 3
[15:18:27] <thetruthisoutthe> would that solve your problem?
[15:18:44] <Xark> There is this USB Blaster for $20 -> https://www.tindie.com/products/majolsurf/altera-usb-blaster-clone-and-usb-pic18f14k50-dev-kit/
[15:19:16] <thetruthisoutthe> RikusW <= if you get a xilinx you can use the xilinx parallel cable 3 for your atmels too :)
[15:19:42] <RikusW> megal0maniac: I saw a $20 altera usb programmer today
[15:19:58] <RikusW> seems it uses FT245
[15:20:26] <megal0maniac> There are lots of cheaper ones
[15:20:34] <megal0maniac> I was just mentioning the one I remember :)
[15:20:36] <megal0maniac> RikusW: http://www.sa89a.net/mp.cgi/ele/ub.htm
[15:20:40] <Xark> No doubt. I got a combo Xilinx/Altera programmer (which works nicely for both - with normal software) -> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/dsjtag-2-in-1-usb-jtag-cable-for-fpgacpld-p-1040.html
[15:21:30] <megal0maniac> You'll have to use Google translate, but its a Altera Blaster based on a PIC18F14K50. I'm sure you could port it to U2S?
[15:21:40] <megal0maniac> Would go in App section, but still
[15:22:12] <RikusW> $20 http://www.wvshare.com/product/USB-Blaster.htm
[15:22:16] <RikusW> in a nice box too
[15:22:28] <megal0maniac> RikusW: If you can port the firmware...
[15:22:41] <megal0maniac> Then you can have 120 USB blasters for free :P
[15:22:49] <RikusW> I've gotten hold of the ixo-jtag fw
[15:23:17] <megal0maniac> Oh yeah, was looking at that
[15:23:26] <megal0maniac> My point still stands :)
[15:23:28] <RikusW> will have to make sense of all that..
[15:23:45] * RikusW thinks megal0maniac wants a freebee :-P
[15:24:17] <RikusW> not just to emulate FT245 on the U2S....
[15:24:20] <megal0maniac> Haha!
[15:24:29] <megal0maniac> I don't have any Altera hardware :)
[15:25:08] <RikusW> yet...
[15:25:18] <megal0maniac> Probably not for a while
[15:25:55] <megal0maniac> No time to sell stuff during exams, so I don't have any money to play with
[15:26:33] <robotustra> is there any sophysticated software needed to write firmware for FPGA?
[15:26:46] <megal0maniac> robotustra: Yip
[15:26:51] <megal0maniac> Actually no
[15:27:01] <robotustra> expensive one?
[15:27:25] * Xark links http://www.leonheller.com/FPGA/FPGA.html (info on dirt cheap Altera FPGA boards [~$25])
[15:27:50] <megal0maniac> Compiling (synthesising) is complicated. Programming is not. Can all be done with free software provided by Altera or Xilinx
[15:28:15] <megal0maniac> Xark: That tindie link is actually really cool
[15:28:24] <Xark> robotustra: Generally there are free packages from the vendor of the FPGA. Supports Windows and Linux.
[15:28:39] <RikusW> robotustra: Quartus II web is free
[15:28:46] <RikusW> the commercial version is $3000
[15:29:17] <megal0maniac> And they're all like 8gb download
[15:29:28] <specing> FPGA support software is shit currently
[15:29:32] <robotustra> Because I was on couple of trainings from Xilinx but we use quite complicated software and with a multiple steps of creation of firmware
[15:29:46] <specing> That is why I have been holding off from purchasing a devkit
[15:30:03] <Xark> megal0maniac: Thanks. I have that fellows Arduino FPGA shield (Cyclone II, but a bit pricey and I can't recommend it without some flash to permanently keep FPGA bitfile). https://www.tindie.com/products/majolsurf/amani-f2-fpga-shield/
[15:30:05] <RikusW> megal0maniac: its more like 4.4GB
[15:30:15] <megal0maniac> Ooh!
[15:30:29] <megal0maniac> I just realised I have what I need to make a USB blaster :)
[15:30:46] <robotustra> And this is one of the reason why I still not work with FPGA
[15:30:46] <megal0maniac> My AVR programmer is PIC18F14K50 based and it's bootloaded
[15:30:48] * Xark has the FPGA packages from Altera, Xilinx and Lattiice all currently installed. :)
[15:32:00] <robotustra> And another reason, that I don't have such complicated or real time task to use FPGAs
[15:33:10] <Xark> robotustra: That is a valid reason. I was "bit-banging" video displays with MCUs, but FPGAs were better for that use. :)
[15:33:27] <robotustra> I know
[15:33:41] <robotustra> actually I have a task
[15:33:53] <robotustra> but I'm not ready for this
[15:34:15] <robotustra> it's a "skin" sensor
[15:34:26] <megal0maniac> RikusW: I'd make a USB blaster right now, but I don't have anything to program :)
[15:34:35] <RikusW> hmm
[15:37:34] <thetruthisoutthe> robotustra <= no, fpgas can be programmed with the very basic 2 DVD sized software available for only $2k
[15:37:53] <thetruthisoutthe> provided you have a system it works on
[15:38:36] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: That is true for largest, fastest parts. But for affordable parts Xilinx, Altera and Lattice all offer 100% free downloadable tools (generally for Linux and Windows).
[15:38:51] <thetruthisoutthe> assuming the 90% of the program is bloat()
[15:38:56] <Xark> (you do have to register though, ITAR restrictions etc.)
[15:39:07] <megal0maniac> thetruthisoutthe: Also, programming and synthesis are not the same thing
[15:39:14] <thetruthisoutthe> hm yes
[15:39:28] <thetruthisoutthe> okey, maybe you can program your already given firmware using some tool
[15:40:34] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: What are you talking about? They all have free IDE, which includes editing, simulation, synthesis etc. (using VHDL and Verilog or even schematic drawing).
[15:40:59] <thetruthisoutthe> i wouldn't call that free
[15:41:15] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: Well, I paid no money. What would you call it?
[15:41:16] <thetruthisoutthe> altera nor xilinx gives anything free
[15:41:16] <megal0maniac> Never mind. Most of these pins are pulled somewhere :/
[15:41:52] <thetruthisoutthe> Xark <= well you don't pay money for it then, but it still is not free.
[15:42:23] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: You are incorrect (although you do need to register). They tools have some limitations, but I have made full systems on a FPGA etc. (worst limitation I am aware of is slower sim time).
[15:42:29] <megal0maniac> I'm confused
[15:42:36] <thetruthisoutthe> xilinx's "web edition" freebie sends your design to xilinx for example
[15:42:37] <megal0maniac> How is it not free if you don't pay for it?
[15:43:07] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: No, it does not. However, it sends anonymous statistics (number of gates and stuff). You can examine what it sends (and it is not a biggie).
[15:43:55] <thetruthisoutthe> also i don't like the idea of having an internet connection for anything that does not need one
[15:44:14] <R0b0t1> Is there anything for simulating AVR and suppling waveforms to IO?
[15:44:30] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: Then you can pay $2000 and you don't need one. :) I am happy to give some stats for free use of expensive software...
[15:47:04] <megal0maniac> This thing accepts firmware through a serial console :?
[15:47:11] <Xark> It would be great if it were open source, etc., but that seems unlikely given the FPGA industry. There is actually one open-source (reverse engineered) FPGA synth tools package, but only for specific Spartan6 LX9 part-> https://github.com/Wolfgang-Spraul/fpgatools
[15:47:12] <megal0maniac> Literally update it using Putty
[15:47:52] <thetruthisoutthe> sounds interesting
[15:48:03] <megal0maniac> Sounds silly
[15:48:11] <R0b0t1> FPGA stuff is unlikely to be open-sourced because configuration builders depend on structure of the FPGA. So companies think releasing the source would give away secrets about their FPGA.
[15:48:12] <megal0maniac> http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J36/9
[15:48:20] <R0b0t1> But people decap them to look at them anyway.
[15:48:50] <thetruthisoutthe> it is stupid thinking if they add 8GB bloat() to their 8.1GB software will keep the internals secret
[15:49:03] <thetruthisoutthe> it is only matter of time.
[15:49:11] <R0b0t1> Remember business majors are the ones making decisions.
[15:49:25] <megal0maniac> Follow the money. Always follow the money
[15:50:24] <R0b0t1> The thing is to actually use some FPGA at their spec you need to know the topography of the chip
[15:50:34] <R0b0t1> otherwise your signals will be routed in a fashion which does not work
[15:50:44] <R0b0t1> Whatever, their loss
[15:51:18] <Xark> It is actually a difficult problem to do a good job synthesizing hardware from a high level description (nested NP complete problems). Not sure their tools are "all bloat" (however, supporting all their old parts makes it get bigger and bigger it seems).
[15:52:00] * Xark notes most IDEs are full on bloat - at least you can call Xilinx tools (and others) from command line and Makefile if you want.
[15:52:15] <thetruthisoutthe> i think if it were opensource some pro programmers out there may even make their sw much better.
[15:52:27] <thetruthisoutthe> "for free"
[15:52:28] <Xark> Also, you can do all the design and simulation with 100% open tools (like GHDL).
[15:52:56] <megal0maniac> thetruthisoutthe: It's always a risk, and a pretty big one in this case.
[15:53:15] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: You don't have to sell me on that, but I am not holding my breath for FPGA industry. :)
[15:53:19] <megal0maniac> For no guarantee of it benefitting the company
[15:53:32] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[15:53:46] <thetruthisoutthe> wondering how much does an altera and a xilinx differs internally
[15:53:54] <thetruthisoutthe> the competition is probably close
[15:53:57] <megal0maniac> Even PIC is a pain in the ass with all the proprietary compilers
[15:54:19] <thetruthisoutthe> PIC is a game
[15:54:23] <thetruthisoutthe> *toy
[15:54:31] <megal0maniac> thetruthisoutthe: Get some nitric acid and find out :)
[15:54:44] <megal0maniac> They have some nice hardware, but the software pisses me off
[15:54:58] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: They are similar, but all the details differ. Not too hard to make a reasonable portable design (but sometimes tempting to use vendor specific tricks/features).
[15:55:05] <thetruthisoutthe> they also include some reandom bugs in the hardware :)
[15:55:32] <megal0maniac> With Atmel, I can either open AS6 on my Windows laptop, or vi and gcc-avr on my ARM box
[15:55:34] <thetruthisoutthe> you may be surprised when your adc suddenly stops working in your PIC for example
[15:56:20] <megal0maniac> I'm going to be forced to use PIC next year... University teaches with them :(
[15:56:34] <thetruthisoutthe> i'd drop that
[15:56:37] <megal0maniac> I'm intent on getting an AVR based programmer working first :P
[15:56:51] <megal0maniac> Or just using AVR as far as possible
[15:56:58] <Xark> I find the PIC architecture painful and Microchip have been a-holes playing games with GNU licensed tools IMO (I am not a lawyer, but crippling GCC makes me grumpy).
[15:58:17] <megal0maniac> Xark: Exactly
[15:58:25] * Xark notes that was with PIC32 tools (PIC not supported by gcc AFAIK).
[15:58:56] <thetruthisoutthe> megal0maniac <= usb ?
[15:59:05] <megal0maniac> usb what?
[15:59:12] <thetruthisoutthe> what are you talking about?
[15:59:32] <megal0maniac> I don't know what you're referring to
[15:59:44] <thetruthisoutthe> megal0maniac <= scan(outbuffer)
[15:59:45] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[16:01:50] <megal0maniac> You've lost me completely
[16:02:09] <thetruthisoutthe> megal0maniac> I'm intent on getting an AVR based programmer working first :P < so, usb ?
[16:03:04] <megal0maniac> Oh!
[16:03:05] <megal0maniac> Um
[16:03:21] <megal0maniac> Again, usb what?
[16:03:32] <thetruthisoutthe> usbasp works off usb for example
[16:03:36] <megal0maniac> AVR based programmer for PIC
[16:03:39] <thetruthisoutthe> dapa works from parallel port
[16:03:45] <thetruthisoutthe> lold
[16:03:51] <thetruthisoutthe> though you need avr programmer
[16:04:00] <thetruthisoutthe> t
[16:05:43] <megal0maniac> I'll figure something out
[16:05:59] <megal0maniac> I have at least 2 avr programmers
[16:06:32] <thetruthisoutthe> ;/
[16:06:43] <thetruthisoutthe> Xark <= you use fpgas ?
[16:06:51] <megal0maniac> I'll get a DAPA thing working and bootload the sucker
[16:07:22] <OndraSter> didn't you have the U2S?
[16:07:27] <OndraSter> which had STK500 module? :P
[16:07:31] <RikusW> megal0maniac: why not use U2S ?.. ?
[16:07:50] <RikusW> don't tell me you let the smoke out ?
[16:08:02] <beaky> How do I count time with AVR in a precise manner?
[16:08:09] <RikusW> use a timer
[16:08:12] <OndraSter> yep
[16:08:16] <beaky> I am using timer1 atm and it works really well
[16:08:20] <OndraSter> precise... also use 32kHz timer :)
[16:08:28] <RikusW> or do you mean minutes + hours + days ?
[16:08:38] <beaky> nah just seconds, milliseconds and microseconds
[16:08:41] <megal0maniac> RikusW: OndraSter: For programming PIC
[16:08:53] <beaky> btw how do I do minutes, hours, days, months, years, and decades on avr?
[16:09:06] <RikusW> beaky: thats a nightmare :-D
[16:09:15] * RikusW don't even want to think of it
[16:09:22] <OndraSter> beaky, get external i2c/spi RTC chip :D
[16:09:23] <OndraSter> easiest
[16:09:30] <megal0maniac> DS1307!
[16:09:31] <OndraSter> megal0maniac, eww why
[16:09:34] <OndraSter> haha 1307
[16:09:41] <beaky> ah so there are dedicated ICs for real-time-time-keeping?
[16:09:47] <OndraSter> yes
[16:09:50] <OndraSter> you can do it on the avr
[16:09:53] <beaky> how do you use an rtc?
[16:09:54] <OndraSter> but this is thousand times easier
[16:09:59] <OndraSter> hook it over i2c bus usually
[16:10:02] <OndraSter> provide it power
[16:10:04] <beaky> what's i2c?
[16:10:08] <OndraSter> it has got also a builtin battery backup
[16:10:09] <OndraSter> ...
[16:10:13] <OndraSter> lmgtfy.com
[16:10:21] <beaky> input capture? adc?
[16:10:25] <beaky> ah alright I'll google it
[16:10:27] <OndraSter> open the datasheet
[16:11:04] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: University. Also I have a PIC that i want to play with
[16:11:16] <OndraSter> we use pic24f starter boards at school
[16:11:19] <OndraSter> in Embedded Systems class
[16:11:25] <megal0maniac> And a rather nice dev board I accidentally bought because I thought it was a programmer :/
[16:11:32] <beaky> ah so i2c is like an interface to a clock
[16:11:37] <OndraSter> no
[16:11:39] <OndraSter> i2c is a bus
[16:12:07] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: Yes, I am currently messing around with FPGAs. Fun and head-stretching. :)
[16:13:30] <thetruthisoutthe> Xark <= i have drawn some test thing too in xilinx's editor (took a few days to make one version partially working on linux)
[16:13:33] <OndraSter> I would use a different words about FPGAs ... :D
[16:13:36] <thetruthisoutthe> but never tried one
[16:13:52] <OndraSter> *-a
[16:13:56] <thetruthisoutthe> OndraSter <= what words you'd use?
[16:14:07] <Xark> OndraSter: Hehe, they can be frustrating too. :)
[16:14:07] <OndraSter> "OH MY GOD RUN"
[16:14:10] <OndraSter> yes
[16:14:11] <thetruthisoutthe> insane, and brain-cracking?
[16:14:13] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[16:14:45] * RikusW still can't get his head around the verilog/vhdl syntax....
[16:14:51] <OndraSter> haha
[16:14:58] <OndraSter> why can't everybody use C syntax
[16:15:02] <OndraSter> or something at least remotely similar
[16:15:05] <thetruthisoutthe> RikusW <= i think i like VHDL more
[16:15:14] <thetruthisoutthe> (and the schematic editor)
[16:17:16] * Xark links to a recent project http://imgur.com/a/3aoEx 6502 SoC with VGA graphics, UART and some LEDs (just a test design), running on $29 Lattice FPGA board (with included JTAG) -> http://www.latticesemi.com/products/developmenthardware/developmentkits/machxo2breakoutboard.cfm
[16:17:17] <RikusW> schematic sure, thats sounds a bit easier
[16:17:47] <RikusW> verilog seems to have a cleaner syntax
[16:18:09] <Xark> Schematic is only easy for simple things, I think. For (e.g.) a CPU or VGA controller, it gets messy quick. :)
[16:18:14] <OndraSter> yep
[16:18:25] <OndraSter> I dare you to make a more complex timer in it :D
[16:18:28] <thetruthisoutthe> if i get an fpga, then i get it for a purpose, not just i have an fpga, now what is it good for?
[16:18:32] <OndraSter> it will get messy immediatily
[16:19:18] <thetruthisoutthe> OndraSter <= macro some logic gates :)
[16:19:23] <Xark> I prefer VHDL, more powerful and less ambiguous than Verilog (but a bit more wordy). Besides, Verilog blew it by using horrible "begin/end" instead of curly braces. :)
[16:19:32] <beaky> what is the difference between avr and a fpga?
[16:19:49] <thetruthisoutthe> fpga is an array of programmable logic blocks
[16:19:50] <OndraSter> thetruthisoutthe, or make modules in vhdl/verilog and then tie them in the schematics together
[16:19:59] <OndraSter> basically you can run AVR on FPGA
[16:20:04] <thetruthisoutthe> avr is a "computer"
[16:20:04] <OndraSter> not the other way around :D
[16:20:16] <beaky> wow
[16:20:23] <Xark> beaky: AVR is a MCU system that you write code for. FPGA is kind of like a "pile of logic" you assemble to make a circuit (that could be a MCU, or other things).
[16:20:24] <beaky> so avr can be emulated by an fpga?
[16:20:39] <beaky> and an fpga is like a programmable circuit
[16:20:40] <OndraSter> yes, but not all peripherals have been done
[16:20:43] <OndraSter> yes
[16:20:48] <beaky> wow that is awesome
[16:20:49] <Xark> beaky: Indeed. I have seem projects with 16 AVRs running in parallel on one FPGA. :)
[16:20:50] <OndraSter> plus you have no analog circuitry on FPGA
[16:20:54] <Xark> seen*
[16:21:10] <beaky> why use avr at all if you can program your own digital gates! :D
[16:21:18] <OndraSter> because FPGA costs a fortune
[16:21:22] <OndraSter> and is big
[16:21:23] <beaky> or is avr much more convenient or cheaper
[16:21:24] <beaky> ah
[16:21:38] <Xark> beaky: Right, if you just need MCU it is overkill.
[16:21:47] <thetruthisoutthe> OndraSter <= check out the low end $2 ones...
[16:21:53] <OndraSter> link?
[16:21:58] <thetruthisoutthe> altera max V
[16:21:59] <OndraSter> it is not just about the FPGA itself
[16:22:07] <thetruthisoutthe> $0.5, has internal flash too
[16:22:08] <OndraSter> it is also about the developer tools
[16:22:12] <thetruthisoutthe> *$1.5
[16:22:16] <OndraSter> and programming/debugger tools
[16:22:21] <RikusW> There are $10000 FPGA's out there, for one ic...
[16:22:37] <OndraSter> you mean CPLDs then, thetruthisoutthe :)
[16:22:43] <Xark> beaky: However, for small designs that need a MCU + custom logic, it starts to look competitive because you can do single chip (e.g., Lattice ICE is a cheap, low-power FPGA).
[16:22:54] <thetruthisoutthe> OndraSter <= the MAXV is at the borderline :) check out the specs
[16:23:17] <OndraSter> if my internet worked better I would be checking it right now
[16:23:20] <thetruthisoutthe> more lika FPGA, with program FLASH
[16:24:24] <OndraSter> thetruthisoutthe, but how much logic do you fit into those $1.5 ones? (nothing has loaded for me yet)
[16:24:28] <OndraSter> damn the internet is terrible tonight
[16:24:36] <OndraSter> can you fit an AVR core with few peripherals? :P
[16:24:46] <Xark> OndraSter: The line between CPLD and FPGA is pretty blurry. For example Lattice MachXO2 is technically a CPLD (with non-volatile design), but it is about as powerful as a smaller FPGA, like Spartan3 (and has built in hardware peripherals for RC osc, SPI, I2C, user flash memory, etc.)
[16:25:07] <thetruthisoutthe> OndraSter <= http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/max-v/mv51001.pdf
[16:25:27] <OndraSter> I have no idea how much could such AVR core take space
[16:25:30] <Xark> OndraSter: MAX is too small I think (but MachXO2, no problem for AVR and ~30K of RAM).
[16:25:32] <thetruthisoutthe> hmm, i don't think you can fit an atmel in this :)
[16:25:51] <OndraSter> ! It was Mouser.com who was slow
[16:25:55] <beaky> if hardware can only have a liminted amount of external interrupts, how do interrupts on processors like i7 work?
[16:26:37] <OndraSter> :)
[16:26:43] <OndraSter> beaky, check information from the 8080 days
[16:26:44] <Xark> OndraSter: Pretty small. For references, the 6502 core + VGA + UART was about 30% of MachXO2-7000 (but used all 29KB of internal SRAM)
[16:28:08] * Xark links to http://www.cloudx.cc/cloudx.8.html which shows 16 AVR8 cores running on small Spartan6 LX9 (about $15 part).
[16:28:18] <OndraSter> sexy
[16:28:59] * Xark not exactly sure why you would want that...but it is neat. :)
[16:29:21] <thetruthisoutthe> :)
[16:29:28] <thetruthisoutthe> yeah, waste of logic gates !
[16:30:31] <thetruthisoutthe> haha Speed: TBD
[16:30:35] <thetruthisoutthe> nobody knows
[16:30:45] <OndraSter> yeah
[16:30:49] <OndraSter> I would like to know that
[16:31:09] <thetruthisoutthe> i think it is because you can not predict how will your logic will be compiled
[16:31:19] <thetruthisoutthe> and you must predict maximum latencies
[16:31:36] <OndraSter> well if you implement it as a CPU and not as a "set of logic gates"
[16:31:42] <OndraSter> it should be relatively predictabl
[16:31:43] <OndraSter> e
[16:31:53] <thetruthisoutthe> the instructions?
[16:31:54] <thetruthisoutthe> no.
[16:32:04] <OndraSter> if you do 1:1 implementation
[16:32:46] <thetruthisoutthe> ok i'm out, i'm not gonna do anything like this :)
[16:33:32] <thetruthisoutthe> putting an avr on an fpga is downgrading i think
[16:34:21] <thetruthisoutthe> you can have 100 parallel operations on an fpga
[16:35:29] <specing> 100 is a bit low, dont you think?
[16:35:59] <thetruthisoutthe> should i mention the avr can do 1 instruction in a cycle?
[16:36:18] <thetruthisoutthe> depends on your fpga's size :P
[16:36:18] <specing> *some
[16:37:37] <OndraSter> all except memory stuff
[16:37:46] <OndraSter> and conditional ones
[16:39:17] <specing> Which is already 1/2 the instructions :)
[16:40:55] <beaky> what kind of FSM should I use to design my programs?
[16:45:35] <OndraSter> FSM?
[16:49:28] <specing> FSM?
[16:49:38] <specing> What about FSM?
[16:54:31] <dunz0r> beaky: A good one?:P
[16:54:41] <dunz0r> Depends a lot on what you're doing
[16:54:54] <dunz0r> A robot will have a very different statemachine from a bar graphdisplay
[16:54:59] <dunz0r> *bar graph display
[16:56:27] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: The FPGA tools will calculate the longest latency, slack etc, and give a "fmax" for a given design (how fast it can safely be clocked, i.e., 60 Mhz) at which point it is totally deterministic like a CPU at a given Mhz. This tends to be pretty accurate (as the vendors have a good model for how the device behaves).
[16:56:50] <RikusW> finite state machine
[16:57:21] <specing> I was thinking about the Flying Spaghetti Monster
[16:57:40] <thetruthisoutthe> Xark <= okey, xlinix told me my design is unpredictable :)
[16:57:59] <thetruthisoutthe> *xilinx sw
[16:59:11] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: Hehe, OK, that is possible to do. "Good" designs, tend to be fully synchronous (with no feedback for unknown timing).
[16:59:40] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: It is all too easy to make unreliable circuits wth an FPGA (but the tools generally spew warnings...). :)
[16:59:58] <thetruthisoutthe> i never said unreliable, just unpredictable
[17:00:25] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: Yeah. Might make an excellent PRNG source, I guess...
[17:00:33] <thetruthisoutthe> i wire the thing up using cmos gates, and it will be military grade
[17:01:38] <thetruthisoutthe> i have an RNG too, but that requires entropy from somewhere
[17:01:41] <thetruthisoutthe> ;/
[17:01:57] <thetruthisoutthe> on a linux PC, there is some
[17:02:33] <thetruthisoutthe> because of the numberless unpredictable delays caused by system events
[17:03:31] <Xark> thetruthisoutthe: Yep. /dev/random is handy for that. :)
[17:04:46] <thetruthisoutthe> the uncertainity of the time between calling the function provides enough entropy for me
[17:05:01] <thetruthisoutthe> if i use the TSC for timebase
[17:05:34] <thetruthisoutthe> i don't have to read from anywhere ;)
[17:11:43] <beaky> ah
[17:12:37] * Xark finds his FPGA 6502 "toy" SoC design quite economical vs. some other options out there (more RAM and runs at 25Mhz too). :) http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57586204-37/apple-1-breaks-auction-record-goes-for-$671400/
[17:16:05] <beaky> http://ideone.com/rp8tVE how do I improve my code?
[17:17:06] <beaky> for some reason the fsm approach was way more verbose than this straigthforward imperative approach
[17:20:19] <Xark> beaky: What are you trying to "improve" the run-time, size or source code size? Seems to me you could refactor this a bit to allow C++ to inline the light_state (and set/reset) function calls to just be a few inline pokes (faster and probably smaller as function calls are expensive in AVR C).
[17:20:43] <beaky> ah
[17:20:50] <beaky> I want to make the source code size tiny
[17:22:15] <Xark> beaky: For such a simple task I can see the fixed overhead of a FSM "machine interpreter" making the source larger. For larger, more complicated tasks a FSM can make sense.
[17:23:21] <Xark> beaky: How about trying to replace the pointer and address of use with references. This may allow C++ to inline it all for you (with few source code size changes, only if you care at all about the actual code result).
[17:23:41] <beaky> so I should switch from C to C++? :D
[17:23:48] <beaky> yay I love c++
[17:25:27] <Xark> beaky: Well, in this case it could help (but make sure you don't like with any drek). However, easier if you want to stick with C is remove the layers from light_off/light_green etc. and just poke the right regs right there (instead of the bizarre passing of address of set/reset function which does reg access).
[17:25:37] <Xark> don't link*
[17:38:30] <Badaboom> yawn
[17:38:45] <thetruthisoutthe> boom
[17:38:50] <Badaboom> :)
[17:39:00] <thetruthisoutthe> big bada boom
[17:39:05] <Badaboom> \lol
[17:39:12] <thetruthisoutthe> (fifth element)
[17:39:16] <Badaboom> yup:)
[17:39:31] <Badaboom> lilu Dallas Multipass
[17:39:36] <twnqx> i always
[17:39:39] <twnqx> wonder
[17:39:48] <twnqx> if beaky is an elaborate and persistent troll
[17:39:55] <Badaboom> lol
[17:39:59] <twnqx> or really as strangely incompetent as he seems
[17:40:09] <Badaboom> twnqx: i was looking for u yesterday
[17:40:13] <twnqx> sorry :/
[17:40:24] <Badaboom> I think ill be able to get the data sheets
[17:40:34] <twnqx> i was playing spider solitaire all evening
[17:40:39] <Badaboom> ahh
[17:40:53] <twnqx> and didn't start synergy to look at what's going on at the laptop
[17:41:05] <twnqx> now i'm just drunk :X
[17:41:12] <Badaboom> lmao
[17:41:45] <Badaboom> well,, get with me tuesday,, ill have the datasheets for those displays
[17:47:45] <Badaboom> I think he passed out
[17:47:54] <twnqx> nah
[17:47:57] <Badaboom> lol
[17:48:01] <twnqx> i just grabbed another beer
[17:48:07] <Badaboom> what are you drinking?
[17:48:10] <Badaboom> ahh
[17:48:15] <twnqx> the... 7th or so
[17:48:20] <Badaboom> :)
[17:48:32] <twnqx> just returned from watching champions league at a friend's
[17:48:38] <Badaboom> nice
[17:49:02] <twnqx> and noticed that my computer finished what i told it to do
[17:49:13] <twnqx> so i'm watching some freshly encoded anime :P
[18:11:11] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= you girl ?
[18:11:31] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom> lilu Dallas Multipass <from this
[18:26:02] <Badaboom> Um,,no,, im a dude
[18:26:04] <Badaboom> lol
[20:00:49] <robotustra> how to disable SPI on atmega32u4?
[20:01:10] <robotustra> SPCR = (1<<SPE)|(1<<MSTR)|(1<<SPR0);
[20:01:12] <robotustra> ?
[20:13:18] <john-f> robotustra: lufa sets SPCR and SPSR to 0
[20:15:47] <robotustra> thanks, I already solved the issue
[20:16:19] <robotustra> PORTB0 is strongly pulled down when SPI is enabled
[20:16:44] <robotustra> But I used another pin, PF7 instead
[20:16:56] <robotustra> may be I'll use SPI
[20:18:32] <robotustra> john-f: btw I throwed LUFA away
[20:19:47] <john-f> robotustra: how are you doing usb then?
[20:19:59] <robotustra> I dont' do USB
[20:20:06] <robotustra> for now
[20:20:30] <john-f> that makes it simpler
[20:21:19] <robotustra> I tried to upload program with LUFA but it stuck at bootloader
[20:21:41] <robotustra> after power reset it waits for new input
[20:22:00] <robotustra> may be something wrong with my board I don't know yet
[20:22:30] <robotustra> it supposed to run my program instead of waiting for upload
[20:24:51] <john-f> the cdc bootloader uses another button to bail out and run the application.or it runs forever.
[20:26:21] <robotustra> which one*
[20:26:22] <robotustra> ?
[20:26:36] <robotustra> I have only one reset button on the board
[20:31:33] <john-f> https://github.com/abcminiuser/lufa/blob/master/Bootloaders/CDC/BootloaderCDC.c#L59
[20:33:03] <john-f> I was slightly wrong, can use HWB to load it. or define another to bail out.
[20:35:49] <john-f> still on my todo list.
[20:58:12] <robotustra> john-f: Is the sparkfun your board?
[20:59:02] <robotustra> because on my board I dont have PE2 contact to pull it down
[21:05:10] <Badaboom> robot: do me a favor
[21:10:30] <robotustra> is it to me?
[21:11:10] <Badaboom> as i explained last night it shows on the schematic that its connected to ground
[21:11:18] <Badaboom> however
[21:11:39] <Badaboom> in the eagle file its clearly not,, can u take a picture of it?
[21:11:45] <Badaboom> just the chip
[21:12:27] <robotustra> I already soldred a lot of wires
[21:12:34] <robotustra> I'll try
[21:12:52] <Badaboom> robotustra: john-f was refering to #define(ing) another pin
[21:12:55] <Badaboom> i believe
[21:27:04] <robotustra> Badaboo: where to upload a photo?
[21:31:23] <robotustra> Badaboom: where to upload a photo?
[21:31:48] <Badaboom> one sec
[21:32:54] <Badaboom> robotustra: use tinypic.com
[21:35:59] <robotustra> http://oi43.tinypic.com/2zxmekk.jpg
[21:36:04] <robotustra> is ok?
[21:36:50] <robotustra> it seems to me that pin 33 is connected to GND
[21:54:53] <Badaboom> pin33 looks to me like NC (no Connection)
[22:01:39] <robotustra> 1 sec
[22:02:40] <robotustra> I tested it
[22:03:01] <robotustra> it short circuited with GND
[22:03:39] <robotustra> could it be a defect of soldering of chip?
[22:09:23] <Badaboom> no the eagle file shows it to be a nc but the schematic does,, its strange
[22:09:53] <robotustra_> ah
[22:10:40] <Badaboom> did u bu the bootloader?
[22:10:43] <robotustra_> It means that if this pin connected to the GND I cannot bypass bootloader?
[22:10:57] <robotustra_> I removed it
[22:11:15] <Badaboom> ok,, so have you tried to load it?
[22:11:24] <robotustra_> I just used USB-ASP to program the chip through SPI
[22:11:52] <robotustra_> but I saved the initial bootloader just in case
[22:11:52] <Badaboom> can i explain ISP to you?
[22:12:04] <robotustra_> sure
[22:12:36] <Badaboom> ok,, I will use several chips right here next to me as examples,, all connected via ISP
[22:12:45] <Badaboom> one is an attin2313A
[22:12:53] <Badaboom> one is an atmega644
[22:13:16] <Badaboom> so all u need is to have a total of 6 pins
[22:13:59] <Badaboom> the 2 power pins which in your case is provided by the usb port
[22:14:43] <Badaboom> and then 4 others, reset, clk, Miso and Mosi
[22:14:55] <robotustra_> yes
[22:15:20] <robotustra_> on this board I have 6 contacts in a group
[22:15:36] <Badaboom> ok,, really the only difference in the 6 and 10 is,,,,,
[22:15:36] <robotustra_> and I burned my chip through it
[22:15:45] <Badaboom> more NC connections
[22:15:56] <Badaboom> ok,, did is verify?
[22:15:56] <robotustra_> only 1 is not connected
[22:16:30] <robotustra_> may be I don't understand what you want to tell me
[22:16:50] <Badaboom> your using avr dude correct?
[22:17:02] <robotustra_> I guess so
[22:17:20] <Badaboom> how are u loading the chip,, (program)?
[22:17:43] <robotustra_> yesterday I did it using avrdude
[22:17:57] <Badaboom> ^^
[22:18:24] <Badaboom> ok your trying to load that chip correct?
[22:18:29] <robotustra_> but today I just connected external progremmer which I had and user eXtrem loader
[22:19:48] <robotustra_> Right now - I already did what I wanted and I uploaded right firmware to the chip, but in couple of weeks may be I'll need USB on my board
[22:19:52] <Badaboom> so you have an external ISP?
[22:19:58] <robotustra_> yep
[22:20:01] <robotustra_> :)
[22:20:07] <Badaboom> so it works?
[22:20:11] <robotustra_> yep
[22:20:18] <Badaboom> ok....
[22:20:35] <robotustra_> I also have icejtag
[22:20:45] <Badaboom> jtagice,, ok
[22:21:09] <Badaboom> let me ask you, whats your goal?
[22:21:47] <robotustra_> right now I'm doing a device which does some stepper motor control
[22:22:22] <Badaboom> i see, did you consider just getting a chip and using that?
[22:22:30] <robotustra_> yes
[22:22:40] <Badaboom> just curious
[22:23:24] <Badaboom> Im learning myself but im always willing to share what i know:)
[22:23:35] <robotustra_> I just looked a small board to fit it in the case of device
[22:23:58] <Badaboom> oh ok
[22:24:15] <robotustra_> I have big one with atmega128
[22:24:33] <Badaboom> Yeah,, i have 5 of the 128's
[22:25:11] <robotustra_> but it's huge, I have to put all electronics into the space 65x65x15 mm
[22:25:39] <Badaboom> wow
[22:25:43] <robotustra_> but atmega128 is much more
[22:25:48] <Badaboom> 2.5" x 2.5 "
[22:25:52] <robotustra_> yes
[22:26:04] <robotustra_> and I actually can do it
[22:26:10] <Badaboom> the atmega i have is 10mm
[22:26:13] <Badaboom> by 10
[22:26:32] <Badaboom> but...
[22:26:34] <robotustra_> the board or chip?
[22:26:44] <Badaboom> you need to be good with soldering that type of package
[22:26:47] <Badaboom> no
[22:26:49] <Badaboom> chip
[22:26:54] <robotustra_> ah
[22:27:15] <Badaboom> I have various packages of the same chips
[22:27:36] <robotustra_> for this prototype I'll just make a common board and just solder separate small PCBs
[22:27:52] <Badaboom> prototype with dip
[22:28:02] <robotustra_> do
[22:28:05] <robotustra_> no
[22:28:17] <thetruthisoutthe> h
[22:28:24] <Badaboom> try to stay away from solderless breadboards,, there not really good with highspeed devices
[22:28:24] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= what r u up 2?
[22:28:39] <robotustra_> do you know pololu drivers?
[22:28:43] <Badaboom> thetruthisoutthe: notta, u?
[22:29:00] <Badaboom> robotustra: no sorry
[22:29:02] <robotustra_> I can solder good
[22:29:07] <thetruthisoutthe> still trying to break the evil spell on my current project
[22:29:16] <Badaboom> whats up?
[22:29:33] <thetruthisoutthe> windows is up
[22:29:37] <Badaboom> lol
[22:29:43] <thetruthisoutthe> and its ps2 keyboard handling
[22:29:47] <Tom_itx> so robotustra you got things working?
[22:29:57] <Badaboom> ahh i remember you mentiong that the other day
[22:30:12] <thetruthisoutthe> actually i have 25 days of work in this already
[22:30:35] <Badaboom> thetruthisoutthe: win ver?
[22:30:46] <thetruthisoutthe> 98 and later
[22:30:54] <robotustra_> Badaboom: like this http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/1182%252dPOLOLU-A4988-Stepper-Motor-Driver-Carrier.html
[22:30:54] <Badaboom> hmm
[22:31:04] <robotustra_> yes
[22:31:11] <robotustra_> Tom_itx: I did
[22:31:34] <robotustra_> and I even transfered my firmware from atmega128 to atmega32U4
[22:31:38] <thetruthisoutthe> i have nothing left but to build a protocol analyzer and connect it
[22:31:39] <robotustra_> today
[22:32:02] <thetruthisoutthe> who wants ps2 keyloggers?
[22:32:31] <robotustra_> Badaboom: I use two drivers like this in my protorype
[22:33:06] <Badaboom> robotustra: nice
[22:33:56] <robotustra_> and couple of DC-DC converters
[22:33:57] <Badaboom> ooo keylogger ehh?
[22:35:16] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= of course for educational purposes only ;)
[22:35:30] <robotustra_> Badaboom: like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/221200963838?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
[22:37:14] <robotustra_> they are small but powerful enough
[22:38:13] <thetruthisoutthe> i'm looking forward having some atmega32UD4 too
[22:38:33] <Tom_itx> what's the D add to it?
[22:38:50] <thetruthisoutthe> $3 ea is good price ?
[22:39:33] <thetruthisoutthe> oh sorry, confusion ATXMEGA32A4U-AU
[22:39:33] <robotustra_> there is no atmega32UD4 i guess?
[22:39:54] <Tom_itx> i've got atmega32U4 but no UD4
[22:40:07] <Badaboom> ooo xmega:),, what about the sams?
[22:40:17] <robotustra_> I think it's for industrial applications
[22:40:27] <robotustra_> with the wider temperature range
[22:40:41] <thetruthisoutthe> *** ATXMEGA32A4U-AU
[22:40:48] <robotustra_> ah
[22:41:18] <thetruthisoutthe> the U means it has usb
[22:42:10] <robotustra_> http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/DEV%252d11643-XMEGA-Xprotolab.html
[22:42:20] <thetruthisoutthe> the hardware usb will not interrupt the system bus and cpu on the xmega?
[22:43:46] <robotustra_> usually USB has it's own memory for endpoints and other stuff
[22:44:01] <thetruthisoutthe> hopefully it won't
[22:44:04] <robotustra_> so the answer - No
[22:44:26] <Badaboom> I found an article for masking that
[22:44:47] <thetruthisoutthe> a vusb messes every timing up by continuously being interrupted by usb
[22:44:58] <john-f> robotustra_: grounded HWB is good. adafruit's breakout works with bootrst off and HWBE on...I was confused with my 32u2 board which shares the pin.
[22:45:14] <Badaboom> http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/files/LUFA/Doc/130303/html/group___group___u_s_b_management___x_m_e_g_a.html
[22:46:30] <john-f> Tom_itx: which resonator do you use?
[22:46:36] <john-f> the tiny one
[22:47:06] <Tom_itx> CSTCE16M0V53-R0
[22:47:29] <Tom_itx> 16Mhz
[22:47:32] <john-f> thanks, works well?
[22:47:37] <Tom_itx> yup
[22:48:09] <Tom_itx> unless you wanna pay 3x as much for more accuracy
[22:48:23] <robotustra_> I worked with USB on AT32B0256UC3
[22:48:29] <Badaboom> Tom_itx: i ran into some trouble the other day ordering form digikey,, seems they dont carry 22pf load xtals only 20
[22:48:36] <robotustra_> not on Xmega
[22:48:53] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= 15pf will be fine
[22:49:06] <thetruthisoutthe> 15-20pf
[22:49:25] <Badaboom> thetruthisoutthe: yup,, manages to find some 20pf chip caps:)
[22:49:30] <Badaboom> managed
[22:49:33] <thetruthisoutthe> also note the pins already have 5-7ps capacitance
[22:49:39] <Badaboom> yup
[22:49:45] <thetruthisoutthe> *pF
[22:49:49] <robotustra_> I never did my own PCB with such controllers
[22:49:50] <Badaboom> i think it should work well
[22:50:06] <thetruthisoutthe> some crystals go with 12pf
[22:50:14] <robotustra_> some day I should start
[22:50:38] <robotustra_> what programs do you usually use to draw PCB?
[22:50:50] <Badaboom> the one i orderedis pretty nead,, kinda like a lowprofile but smaller
[22:51:23] <Tom_itx> i've got some that use 8pf
[22:51:58] <robotustra_> BTW, what OS is used in Xmegas?
[22:52:13] <robotustra_> FREE RTOS?
[22:56:47] <Badaboom> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ECS-160-20-3X-TR/XC1776CT-ND/2676640
[22:57:44] <robotustra_> Badaboom: what do you develop?
[22:58:25] <Badaboom> robotustra: i dont really develope,, just build:)
[22:58:50] <robotustra_> and what is it? if it's not a secret?
[22:59:03] <Badaboom> cold fusion
[22:59:08] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= you haven't even started with atmegas, already in xmega ?
[22:59:36] <Badaboom> thetruthisoutthe: good god no,, still have my atmegas to go:)
[22:59:57] <Badaboom> but i still like my tiny2313
[23:00:24] <thetruthisoutthe> i have chosen an attiny13, and atmega168, nothing between
[23:00:44] <robotustra_> Badaboom: please don't bullshit me I a physicist
[23:01:04] <robotustra_> :)
[23:01:14] <Badaboom> the temptation of the xmegas is great but i still have a long way to go
[23:01:41] <Badaboom> robotustra: i have many projects
[23:02:03] <Badaboom> i like working with led's (RGB)
[23:02:12] <robotustra_> Badaboom: it's better to do something like Ravu cell
[23:02:24] <robotustra_> Ravi cell*
[23:03:07] <robotustra_> ok, I'm trying to work with motors and actuators
[23:03:09] <Badaboom> hydro cell?
[23:03:14] <robotustra_> yep
[23:03:17] <Badaboom> ahh
[23:03:25] <Badaboom> thats all u
[23:03:30] <robotustra_> HH0 generator
[23:04:04] <robotustra_> But I don't think that it's true also
[23:04:09] <Badaboom> Ive read there being surpressed
[23:04:25] <Badaboom> see,, one never knows
[23:04:26] <thetruthisoutthe> so, not so smart people don't stay in this industry for long right?
[23:04:53] <robotustra_> some day I'll try it but I don't think that I get something more than usual electrolisys
[23:05:39] <Badaboom> my father was in ethenol,, developed many projects and suddenly left it
[23:05:53] <Badaboom> never would explain exactly why
[23:07:06] <robotustra_> may be just tired?
[23:07:13] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= sweden ?
[23:07:14] <Badaboom> doubtful
[23:07:26] <robotustra_> government?
[23:07:47] <Badaboom> thetruthisoutthe: he built some in the US and several in the islands near st thomas
[23:08:05] <Badaboom> st. kitts was one
[23:08:05] <thetruthisoutthe> Badaboom <= i mean you are in se ?
[23:08:19] <Badaboom> I wish,, im in the US
[23:08:23] <thetruthisoutthe> hehe
[23:08:27] <thetruthisoutthe> us is cool no?
[23:08:28] <Badaboom> :(
[23:08:39] <thetruthisoutthe> unless it is mexico or brazil
[23:08:45] <Badaboom> Not when they lie that were in economis recovery
[23:08:58] <robotustra_> Badaboom what state?
[23:09:04] <robotustra_> I'm in Montreal
[23:09:07] <Badaboom> Florida
[23:09:12] <Badaboom> ahh Canada:)
[23:09:13] <robotustra_> Oh nice
[23:09:32] <robotustra_> But may be too hot there, no?
[23:09:42] <Badaboom> very
[23:09:43] <Badaboom> lol
[23:09:49] <Badaboom> but i was born here so
[23:09:51] <robotustra_> Yeah, I'm shitty emigrant
[23:09:56] <Badaboom> Im used to it
[23:10:08] <robotustra_> I came here in 2010
[23:10:10] <Badaboom> lol,, where originally?
[23:10:16] <robotustra_> Belarus
[23:10:24] <Badaboom> oh
[23:10:35] <robotustra_> Do you know?
[23:10:38] <thetruthisoutthe> ok, i still have a few words for my atmega ;/
[23:10:51] <Tom_itx> good ones?
[23:10:57] <robotustra_> :)
[23:11:10] <thetruthisoutthe> elaborated ones
[23:11:19] <Badaboom> Near lithuania
[23:11:30] <Badaboom> czeh rep
[23:11:39] <Badaboom> my spelling:(
[23:12:04] <Badaboom> thetruthisoutthe: lol
[23:12:07] <robotustra_> no it's between poland and russia
[23:12:31] <Badaboom> lithuania isnt north?
[23:12:36] <robotustra_> lithuania to the north and Ukraine to the south
[23:12:39] <robotustra_> yep
[23:12:49] <Badaboom> ahh ,,oooo Ukranian women,, YUM
[23:13:01] <robotustra_> between 4 countries
[23:13:16] <Badaboom> have you been to the Ukrain?
[23:13:20] <robotustra_> yep, they have nice natural boobs
[23:13:26] <robotustra_> 1 time
[23:13:26] <Badaboom> hell yes
[23:13:33] <Badaboom> Very cute women
[23:13:41] <robotustra_> byelarussians are flat
[23:13:48] <Badaboom> lmao
[23:13:58] <robotustra_> all woman are evil
[23:14:04] <Badaboom> yup
[23:14:34] <robotustra_> there is nothing to take from them...
[23:14:38] <Badaboom> they all need to come with an ISP
[23:14:48] <robotustra_> but they take from you everything
[23:15:05] <Badaboom> weve all been there brotha
[23:15:12] <robotustra_> is there iny girl in here>
[23:15:15] <robotustra_> ?
[23:15:26] <Badaboom> y best friend is from St. Petersburg btw
[23:15:32] <Badaboom> my
[23:15:40] <robotustra_> who?
[23:16:05] <Badaboom> I doubt u know him
[23:16:12] <robotustra_> Nikita?
[23:16:31] <Badaboom> no,, he doesnt hang out in here or know anything about electronics
[23:16:53] <robotustra_> oh good
[23:17:10] <robotustra_> I'm kind of noob in microcontrollers
[23:17:29] <Badaboom> there alot of fun
[23:17:32] <robotustra_> I know a couple of them but not so deep
[23:17:44] <Badaboom> same here,, but getting there
[23:18:24] <robotustra_> now there are a lot of boards ready to use, but there is no universal one
[23:18:48] <Badaboom> I dont like premades,, i prefer my own chip and loader ...etc
[23:18:55] <robotustra_> every time I have to play with it to run it
[23:19:38] <Badaboom> only 3 things needed,, programmer, power supply and chip
[23:20:02] <robotustra_> Badaboom: I prefer also, but for prototyping is good ready ones
[23:20:21] <Badaboom> true
[23:20:34] <Badaboom> its already ported
[23:20:59] <robotustra_> It's good if you do just firmware, but I like to moveit moveit
[23:20:59] <Badaboom> Ive got more flight lessons in the morning,,blah
[23:21:08] <Badaboom> lol
[23:21:23] <robotustra_> I like when I have something moving outside
[23:21:31] <robotustra_> like motors, etc
[23:21:34] <Badaboom> robotustra,: i want a really cool vu meter using an avr and RGB
[23:22:02] <robotustra_> ultraviolet?
[23:22:11] <Badaboom> no,, vu is sound
[23:22:19] <Badaboom> sound level to be precise
[23:22:25] <Badaboom> like in a stero
[23:22:28] <Badaboom> i
[23:22:34] <robotustra_> one second
[23:23:10] <robotustra_> do you want something like this? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/woodenshark/lightpack-ambient-backlight-for-your-displays?ref=live
[23:23:19] <robotustra_> see video
[23:23:58] <robotustra_> I did light music in my childhood
[23:24:08] <robotustra_> but it was simple
[23:25:03] <Badaboom> oh yeah,, ive done ones using lm324's
[23:25:13] <Badaboom> old school
[23:25:17] <robotustra_> like low frequency filters for red light, mid for yellow and green and hi freq for violet
[23:25:28] <Badaboom> yes
[23:26:04] <robotustra_> actually it was cool but I'm not a big fun of blinking lights :)
[23:26:20] <robotustra_> for club it's ok
[23:27:04] <Badaboom> crap,, my 2313 locked up,, one sec
[23:27:18] <robotustra_> fuses?
[23:27:31] <Badaboom> reset:)
[23:27:34] <Badaboom> lol
[23:27:56] <robotustra_> do you write asm or c?
[23:27:59] <Badaboom> its tied to the ISP and apparently just froze
[23:28:03] <Badaboom> c
[23:28:34] <Badaboom> I want to be able to use all functions eventually
[23:30:06] <TechIsCool> can anyone tell me how to connect this to a micro controller? http://imgur.com/uHvIi5B
[23:30:53] <Badaboom> all that shows is 4 switches
[23:31:15] <robotustra_> TechIsCool to what controller
[23:31:18] <robotustra_> ?
[23:31:33] <TechIsCool> atxmega32a4u
[23:31:41] <Badaboom> lol
[23:31:59] <TechIsCool> its more that I don't understand how you can read two buttons on two wires
[23:32:10] <TechIsCool> I will fully admit to being a noob
[23:32:20] <robotustra_> he must be kiddin :)
[23:33:22] <Badaboom> TechIsCool: can i ask what your trying to do?
[23:33:27] <robotustra_> first of all - to read the input you have to have some input pins
[23:33:54] <TechIsCool> Badaboom: Just use the four buttons
[23:34:08] <robotustra_> 4 buttons - it's 4 inputs and other side is connected to GND
[23:34:19] <Badaboom> TechIsCool: to light lED's or?
[23:34:27] <TechIsCool> does not matter
[23:34:37] <robotustra_> some control?
[23:34:41] <TechIsCool> use
[23:34:42] <TechIsCool> yes
[23:34:46] <robotustra_> so
[23:34:52] <TechIsCool> robotustra_: There are only four pins not five
[23:35:01] <robotustra_> 4
[23:35:04] <Badaboom> I can send you a link on connecting buttons and writing code if thatl help,, it also includes debouncing
[23:35:11] <TechIsCool> Badaboom:
[23:35:17] <TechIsCool> http://imgur.com/uHvIi5B
[23:35:18] <robotustra_> other side of button should be grounded
[23:35:23] <TechIsCool> take a look at the picture
[23:36:03] <robotustra_> I saw this picture
[23:36:10] <robotustra_> It's a bull shit
[23:36:20] <TechIsCool> ?
[23:36:20] <robotustra_> you can't read this buttors
[23:36:25] <robotustra_> buttons
[23:36:41] <robotustra_> first of all
[23:36:53] <robotustra_> let's do 1 button
[23:36:54] <TechIsCool> then how did the do it originally this was a salvaged board
[23:37:00] <TechIsCool> I know how one button works
[23:37:08] <TechIsCool> I know how I could wire two of the four buttons
[23:37:14] <TechIsCool> its the other two I had a question about
[23:37:43] <robotustra_> Ok, so tell me how meny pins atmega32u4 has?
[23:37:58] <TechIsCool> 44
[23:38:02] <robotustra_> cool
[23:38:17] <robotustra_> to what port du you want to connet them?
[23:38:23] <TechIsCool> A
[23:38:28] <Badaboom> he said xmega tho
[23:39:00] <robotustra_> ok
[23:39:12] <robotustra_> next
[23:39:30] <robotustra_> how do you want to request button presses?
[23:39:36] <Badaboom> TechIsCool: better you figure out what you want to do so we better understand how to best help
[23:40:10] <TechIsCool> robotustra_: do you mean Interrupts. Right now I was keeping it simple so no
[23:40:15] <thetruthisoutthe> do you usually tell gcc to return; at the end of an ISR ?
[23:41:26] <Badaboom> cough
[23:41:52] <robotustra_> TechIsCool: let's imagine, you have 1 button connected to PA0 and PA1
[23:41:54] <Badaboom> i need choclate,, brb
[23:41:55] <robotustra_> ok?
[23:42:15] <TechIsCool> ok
[23:42:56] <robotustra_> You have to configure One pin as Input and another pin as Output, yes?
[23:43:18] <TechIsCool> ok
[23:43:51] <TechIsCool> then you flip between input and output to check state?
[23:43:52] <robotustra_> for instance, PA0 is output and you put "1" there
[23:44:08] <TechIsCool> ok
[23:44:14] <robotustra_> for your 4 button control - yes
[23:44:33] <robotustra_> you'll tie because of reconfiguration
[23:44:58] <robotustra_> every time you have to read your KBD you have to reconfigure pins
[23:45:12] <robotustra_> I think it's not good idea
[23:46:11] <TechIsCool> Alright, It was more the question how they did it then why they did it. I has been sitting on my desk for about a year and I finally picked it up to figure out how it worked and why they could use only 4 pins
[23:46:51] <robotustra_> the algoruthm to read from your 4-btn kbd sould be like this
[23:47:17] <robotustra_> you make one pin as output and all other pins as inputs
[23:47:28] <robotustra_> and read the walue
[23:47:31] <robotustra_> values
[23:48:29] <robotustra_> after you make from output pin an input, and one of the rest pins - output, and again read the values
[23:48:48] <TechIsCool> I understand
[23:48:58] <robotustra_> actually, that's how can it works
[23:49:28] <TechIsCool> and theoretically you could do it only twice because there are two pairs basically
[23:50:01] <robotustra_> you mean because it's a joystick?
[23:50:40] <TechIsCool> oh wait I miss read my chart
[23:51:03] <TechIsCool> I read it as s1 and s2 where grouped and s3 and s4 were grouped
[23:51:24] <robotustra_> no, it's symmetrical I think
[23:51:29] <TechIsCool> it is
[23:52:04] <TechIsCool> s1 = 2+3; s2 = 3+4; s3 = 2+1; s4 = 1+4;
[23:52:15] <robotustra_> ok,
[23:52:31] <robotustra_> so, are you making your own control?
[23:53:42] <TechIsCool> robotustra_: actually It was more of a curiosity on how the original device functioned.
[23:54:09] <TechIsCool> but yes I was just going to build a test program to see if I could interface with them
[23:54:48] <robotustra_> ok, it's 1 wire less
[23:55:08] <TechIsCool> robotustra_: Which makes little sense and I think I will get lazy and just add a ground to the board
[23:56:28] <robotustra_> it will be connected through long wires?
[23:56:48] <TechIsCool> nope
[23:56:58] <TechIsCool> this is all breadboard nothing fancy