#avr | Logs for 2013-05-09

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[00:00:11] <rue_house> I dont even know how it was all made in the first place
[00:00:19] <rue_house> I recall it took hours to clean up
[00:03:46] <Casper> shouln't take more than 1 hour to extract ALL of the datasheets links
[00:04:27] <rue_house> hahaha
[00:04:33] <rue_house> how so?
[00:04:42] <Casper> just script it
[00:04:53] <R0b0t1> script it, into shape
[00:05:02] <rue_house> kat found a page with most of links somehow
[00:05:57] <rue_house> I found the datasheet I needed, but it dosn't help there are no copy-and-paste serial libs out there for the M162
[00:06:11] <rue_house> time to make a wheel
[00:06:44] <rue_house> not tonight tho
[00:23:01] <TechIsCool> why does this cause an overflow? for(uint8_t i = 255; i > -1; i--){}
[00:23:02] <TechIsCool> ?
[04:52:22] <langoliers-2> hi
[07:32:57] <Horologium> moaning.
[07:38:54] <RikusW> what are you moaning about ? :-P
[07:41:22] <Horologium> pain
[07:57:03] <abcminiuser> Whee
[07:57:07] <abcminiuser> No more SVN
[08:00:03] <Horologium> why?
[08:06:03] <jadew> why whee?
[08:06:11] * jadew likes svn
[08:10:30] <Horologium> it's better than that crap microsoft put out to do the same thing.
[08:12:40] <theBear> friggin vi is probably better at version-management than anything microsoft made, and it doesn't do version management !
[08:12:58] <theBear> what's the first thing microsoft ever made that didn't suck ? a vacuum !
[08:14:03] <Horologium> sourcesafe!
[08:14:06] <Horologium> that's what it was called.
[08:14:14] <Horologium> god was that fucking crap.
[08:14:14] <jadew> eh... they did a lot of nice things
[08:14:17] <jadew> never tried it
[08:14:29] <Horologium> any slight glitch and the entire repository was hosed.
[08:14:43] <jadew> but you know what? even if it might suck, it'll probably have some popularity, because it will integrate nicely with VS
[08:15:03] <Horologium> only thing it did over svn was easily do revision on binary files.
[08:15:18] <Horologium> but, everything was stored in some proprietary binary format.
[08:15:34] <jadew> well, they had to store it somehow
[08:15:57] <Horologium> we used it for a while and I just backed the entire thing up daily by shutting the sourcesafe app down and backing up the file tree..
[08:16:06] <Horologium> it crashed on us once a week at least.
[08:16:41] <jadew> that does suck
[08:16:55] <jadew> why did it crash?
[08:17:05] <Horologium> their in system backup wouldn't restore reliably.
[08:17:20] <Horologium> never could find out...the database and data would just suddenly be corrupted.
[08:17:41] <jadew> weird
[08:17:53] <Casper> it's normal
[08:17:56] <Casper> it's microsoft
[08:18:05] <Casper> ever seen a microsoft app that work well?
[08:18:07] <Horologium> this was back in about 2001
[08:18:15] <Horologium> Casper, notepad...
[08:18:16] <jadew> Casper, actually I have
[08:18:20] <jadew> Visual Studio
[08:18:41] <jadew> however, ms started to push out shitty products in the past 2-3 years, I'll give you that
[08:18:44] <Casper> Horologium: notepad.... is it really made my microsoft? or they purchased the rights?
[08:18:55] <Horologium> Casper, no clue...
[08:19:00] <jadew> the new VS after 2005 started to suck, klimaxing with VS 2012
[08:19:50] <jadew> in the past MS used to be very developer friendly, which is why they were so successful to begin with, that sort of changed for some reason
[08:19:54] <Horologium> haven't used VS since about 2003 or so.
[08:20:23] <jadew> they even released a service pack for vs 2010 adding new libraries, which were undocumented, that's just strange for MS
[08:20:27] <Horologium> that being when I went pretty much full linux across the board.
[08:20:52] <Casper> jadew: the new libs was probably mean to be for internal use only :D
[08:21:08] <jadew> Casper, no, they did came with a few samples
[08:21:43] <jadew> and they had MSDN entries, it's just that most of them had something like "documentation to be written"
[08:21:52] <jadew> needless to say, the docs never came
[08:21:56] <Casper> hehe
[08:21:58] <Horologium> typical.
[08:22:30] <theBear> all the vs stuff completely sucked thru the 90s
[08:22:32] <Casper> like their unknown errors....
[08:23:02] <jadew> theBear, everything kinda sucked back then :)
[08:23:15] <theBear> yeah, but not as much as their gui programming whatsits :)
[08:23:22] <Casper> in windows 98 (I think it was there too in 95), if the system clock was off too much, it was throwing an unknown error when you try to do the windows updates...
[08:23:36] <Casper> ... windows 8 still have the same unknown error...
[08:23:43] <theBear> it was really a miracle if you could keep it open long enough to complete ANYTHING, letalone build or run it
[08:24:05] <Casper> same with the unknown error when you do not have the internet cable plugged...
[08:24:35] <jadew> it also had some bugs in the stl, but meh... that's 13 years+ ago
[08:25:19] <jadew> and even like that, MS was great back then, they only started to suck (from what I could tell) as of 2009 or so
[08:26:19] <Horologium> the best release microsoft ever had was dos 5.0.
[08:26:31] <Horologium> most stable anyhow.
[08:27:12] <jadew> come on... windows is still the best OS you can get on your desktop
[08:27:39] <jadew> and if not for the features, for the fact that it works and does everything it should do
[08:28:54] <jadew> VS, even ugly and feature lacking as it is in it's last release, it's still the best IDE
[08:29:01] <Casper> depend which windows...
[08:29:07] <Casper> XP and 7 is ok
[08:29:14] <jadew> Casper, was about to say that
[08:29:23] <Casper> 95/ME/Vista/8...
[08:29:25] <jadew> those are pretty much your only options
[08:29:31] <Horologium> win2kpro!
[08:29:43] <Horologium> the only windows version I ever actually bought.
[08:29:59] <Casper> and said fuck it no more?
[08:30:08] <Horologium> pretty much.
[08:30:50] <jadew> you know what pisses me off the most about MS these days?
[08:31:05] <Casper> copycat?
[08:31:06] <jadew> the fact that W8 blows and that you have to use it in order to code for windows phone
[08:31:18] <Horologium> solution to that
[08:31:24] <Horologium> don't code for windows 8
[08:31:27] <Horologium> or windows phone
[08:31:39] <Casper> I have yet to hear anyone that have windows phone
[08:31:46] <jadew> I do
[08:31:47] <jadew> it's great
[08:31:48] <theBear> noone uses winphones now anyway, they were only attractive when it was the only half-decent phone os
[08:31:49] <Casper> everyone goesd android or iphone
[08:32:00] <theBear> and i seen the new interfaces, it aint great
[08:32:04] <theBear> it's worse than nokia :)
[08:32:17] <Casper> theBear: so worse than blackberry too
[08:32:32] <theBear> but 2003sewinmobile, that was cool, when it was that or a regular old fashioned phone
[08:32:32] <jadew> once you get used to it, it's much more practical
[08:32:32] <Horologium> how does blackberry stay in business anyhow?
[08:32:42] <jadew> however they went for the apple philosophy there
[08:32:42] <theBear> 2003 (original release) was pretty crappy
[08:32:49] <theBear> Horologium, i figure big business contracts
[08:33:00] <jadew> and now you can't put your own programs on a windows phone with out a developer license
[08:33:01] <Casper> Horologium: because of some stupid business boss
[08:33:03] <jadew> which is stupid
[08:34:11] <theBear> my increasingly crazy dad had a work-blackberry the last few years, loved it, was sending emails and pictures and shit all over the place, now he got an iphone and he literally struggles to answer calls, god forbid making one..
[08:35:33] <jadew> well, older people usually struggle with change anyway
[08:36:10] <jadew> I got my dad an android phone about 2 weeks ago, he got used to it quite fast, he's still not using the market, but he likes the phone
[08:36:22] <jadew> his most favorite app: shazam
[08:36:43] <jadew> he was blown away when I showed him what it does
[08:36:55] <Horologium> what does it do?
[08:37:02] <theBear> mmm, i'm not saying iphones are unusable, and he IS increasingly crazy as time goes on, but seriously, he can't work the fucking thing AT ALL, and he's not THAT different to your 'average person'
[08:37:02] <jadew> it recognizes songs
[08:37:22] <Horologium> oh,
[08:37:24] <theBear> like soundhound
[08:37:26] <Horologium> I don't do music on the phone.
[08:37:26] <theBear> or that otehr one
[08:37:32] <theBear> not on the phone
[08:37:34] <jadew> Horologium, it's not for on the phone
[08:37:40] <jadew> it's for when you're listening to the radio
[08:37:42] <jadew> and you like that song
[08:37:43] <theBear> it's like saying to a friend at a bar "hey, what's this song they playing"
[08:37:57] <Horologium> oh.
[08:38:07] <jadew> now Horologium is blown away :P
[08:38:18] <Horologium> only time I listen to music is when I'm doing woodwork or driving long distance.
[08:38:21] <theBear> hehe
[08:38:39] <theBear> Horologium, never heard something in a movie and thought "hmm, that's a cool song" ?
[08:38:42] <Horologium> during either activity I generally avoide fucking with the phone.
[08:38:48] <jadew> I listen to a lot of music while working, it's the only way I can separate myself from the environment
[08:38:53] <jadew> but I usually know what song is playing
[08:38:54] <Horologium> theBear, nope.
[08:38:56] <theBear> usually they only need a few seconds and cope pretty well with noise
[08:39:15] <jadew> yeah, I'm surprised at how well they do
[08:39:40] <Horologium> there are some movies I sing along with, but, those I know rather well.
[08:39:48] <Horologium> like Marry Poppins and The Sound of Music.
[08:40:20] <theBear> i even managed to get a MANGLED song that was involved in a silly-dj recording i got out of one... seriously mangled, repeating and echoing and alternately spedup/super-stretched (sliced and overlayed style)
[08:40:30] <theBear> since that day i know, celine dion ROCKS
[08:40:39] <jadew> :P
[08:40:47] <Horologium> umm
[08:40:48] <jadew> I tried to sing something, didn't work
[08:40:49] <Horologium> eeewwwww.
[08:40:50] <jadew> tried it twice
[08:41:12] <theBear> jadew, mmm, most of them don't work with 'copies' of songs like singing yourself, one does pretty well on that kinda thing, but i can never remember which
[08:41:35] <jadew> theBear, there is a site that allows you recognize songs by humming
[08:41:39] <jadew> but it kinda sucks
[08:41:54] <jadew> this one: http://www.midomi.com/
[08:42:05] <theBear> interesting... there was one years ago that you tap the first 20 seconds or so on the mouse/spacebar (just rythm) that often worked surprisingly well, but also often didn't :)
[08:42:10] <jadew> it failed like 90% of the time for me
[08:42:49] <theBear> it's a tricky area, both detecting/identifying what is being 'heard' AND librarying/fingerprinting/whatever ALL the songs that anyone could possibly be interested in
[08:42:49] <jadew> theBear, now that's a cool app, cuz I do that a lot with my g/f and she never recognizes the song
[08:43:05] <jadew> I tap on the table and then I'm like "know this song?" :P
[08:43:16] <theBear> jadew, it's a tricky skill, some people ALWAYS get it, but most people don't
[08:43:43] <jadew> yeah, I don't think I'd get it either
[08:43:57] <jadew> up until now I thought it only makes sense in your head
[08:45:38] <jadew> *wife
[08:49:33] <Horologium> Define: WIFE-Wash Iron F*ck Etc
[08:52:32] <jadew> more or less :P
[08:53:34] <edmont> hi
[08:56:15] <jadew> hi
[08:57:10] <w|zzy> I just have a WFE
[08:57:29] <edmont> do you know any way of changing MISO and MOSI functionalities for SPI?
[08:58:03] <jadew> well, mine is a WE at the moment :P
[08:58:12] <jadew> WFE normally, now she's pregnant
[08:58:37] <Horologium> edmont, swap the wires
[08:58:58] <edmont> Horologium: no other way?
[08:58:59] <Horologium> jadew, at least now you can't get her pregnant again.
[08:59:03] <edmont> its a pcb board
[08:59:08] <jadew> Horologium hehe
[08:59:11] <edmont> and i have 100 of them :)
[08:59:19] <Horologium> edmont, if you are using the hardware spi, no.
[08:59:22] <jadew> edmont, you do want to swap them, right?
[08:59:30] <edmont> yes
[08:59:34] <jadew> yeah, if that's what you need you'll have to use software SPI
[08:59:46] <edmont> that's what i thought
[09:00:07] <edmont> any atmega128rfa1 driver?
[09:00:10] <jadew> luckly it's not hard to implement :)
[09:00:32] <Horologium> spi is about the easiest serial protocol to do in software.
[09:01:58] <jadew> edmont, best way would be to cut the traces
[09:02:12] <jadew> and use wires to fix it
[09:02:40] <jadew> 100 boards, that
[09:02:47] <jadew> that's 100 cuts + 200 wires
[09:02:50] <jadew> so 400 joints
[09:02:54] <jadew> that's not such a big deal
[09:02:57] <jadew> can be done in a day
[09:03:36] <edmont> actually 200 cuts and 300 wires :)
[09:03:50] <jadew> well, yeah :P
[09:03:53] <edmont> in the board i have, cause ICSP is also connected
[09:04:01] <jadew> I imagined them as going in paralel, so you cut them both at once :P
[09:04:08] <jadew> wait
[09:04:12] <jadew> and ICSP works?
[09:04:24] <edmont> yes, but it is connected the right way
[09:04:42] <jadew> ah
[09:04:50] <Rickta59> any avr noobs in here? Interested in some hardware?
[09:05:09] <jadew> what hardware?
[09:05:22] * jadew is always a noob
[09:05:29] <theBear> jadew, hehe, i was tempted to say that too, but even you aint that new
[09:05:30] <Rickta59> I have a tube of atmega1284ps i bought 2 years ago
[09:05:47] <Rickta59> i've done nothing with them as i have spent more time on msp430 stuff
[09:06:00] <Rickta59> probably some other random chips
[09:06:13] <jadew> how much do you want for them?
[09:06:19] <Rickta59> i'd like to get them to someone whoul would appreciate them
[09:06:26] <Rickta59> hmm .. what do yuou ahve to trade?
[09:06:37] <Rickta59> i think they were $6 a piece when i bought them
[09:06:42] <Rickta59> haven't looked .. they are dip btw
[09:06:52] <jadew> I'm sure everyone would appreciate them in here :P
[09:06:52] <theBear> heh, i've still got a handful of 90s2313's, but i aint given up on them yet :)
[09:07:00] <Horologium> Rickta59, my favorite chip.
[09:07:05] <theBear> and yeah, i bought them LONG before they were obsolete :)
[09:07:13] <Rickta59> yeah i did play with it when i first got them
[09:07:42] <Horologium> love the huge sram on them.
[09:07:51] <theBear> got a tube of tiny13 or 26s or something too, they're pretty new tho, and even have an intended purpose, if i ever get a programmer hooked up again :)
[09:07:55] <Rickta59> even programmed them with an avr910 i got going on the msp430
[09:08:15] <jadew> Rickta59, isn't that a bootloader?
[09:08:25] <Rickta59> an isp programmer
[09:08:34] <Horologium> avr910 protocol is a a serial interface programming protocol.
[09:08:50] <Horologium> it is used for bootloaders and programmer units both.
[09:08:52] <jadew> oh
[09:08:54] <jadew> ah ha!
[09:09:04] <jadew> theBear, yeah I have some tiny13's too
[09:09:12] <jadew> 26 is like the tiny13 but bigger?
[09:10:02] <Rickta59> i also have a dragon and a mkii i'd part with
[09:10:04] <jadew> Rickta59, I guess it depends on where you live too, sending those could be expensive
[09:10:09] <theBear> think so, i forget what i got, but they're basically the smallest 8pin tiny's you could get maybe 3 or 4 years ago that are fine with C (the old old tinies that probably still exist were too small to program with a compiler)
[09:10:09] <Rickta59> us east cost
[09:10:23] <jadew> how much for the dragon?
[09:12:22] <jadew> theBear, did they have less than 512 flash?
[09:13:06] <theBear> i dunno, i just picked the smallest/cheapest that i could confirm worked with avr-gcc
[09:13:16] <jadew> that's probably tiny13 :P
[09:13:20] <jadew> I did that too
[09:13:41] <theBear> hmmm, probly take a bit to find them right now, house monkey 90% moved out, but the workshop is still squeezed into the loungeroom
[09:13:43] <jadew> then I wrote a slave driver for it, in C and realized it's too big, had to rewrite it in asm
[09:13:48] <theBear> hehe
[09:14:02] <jadew> *for 1-wire
[09:14:06] <theBear> my application is pretty simple, if anything they a pin or two short, but should take VERY little ram
[09:14:49] <jadew> I don't think I used any ram at all in the ASM implementation
[09:15:06] <jadew> I only used the registers so I didn't have to deal with memory
[09:15:11] <jadew> that saved some space too
[09:15:44] <jadew> I basically just assigned each variable a register and that was it
[09:17:32] <jadew> http://pastebin.com/xexVE44u
[09:18:01] <theBear> i wonder... maybe this is simple enough for me to asm... haven't interfaced outside i2c bus's before, and this is gonna connect to pc i2c/smbus so i suppose i sort that out then decide
[09:18:50] <jadew> well, if the C code fits, there's no reason to go ASM on it
[09:19:05] <theBear> most likely it's gonna present as a VERY small portion of some existing temp/fan kinda chip, maybe a it87?? or something
[09:19:41] <theBear> that's true, but i should practice, i haven't really done any asm since i discovered avrs outside of debugging/working around broken compilers
[09:20:09] <theBear> done a fair bit on SIMILAR kinda archs tho
[09:20:13] <jadew> yeah, I haven't done any asm in a while either, until I got on this project, it's fun
[09:20:26] <Horologium> I miss 6502 assembly!
[09:20:29] <theBear> it is when the thing isn't so damned complex that it breaks your head
[09:21:09] <theBear> i miss 6800... now i'm a big boy who's good at stuff, i should probably knock up a system on veroboard and have a play again
[09:21:19] <theBear> hmm, not sure i got a 6800 around, pretty sure i got a z80 tho
[09:21:29] <Horologium> I have a bunch of 68000 chips.
[09:21:34] <Horologium> on dev/learning boards.
[09:21:42] <theBear> hehe, 40pin dip AND eeprom AND maybe ram on a veroboard, that's the oldschool shit :)
[09:21:46] <Horologium> giant dip package
[09:21:53] <Horologium> veroboard.
[09:21:54] <Horologium> bah
[09:21:58] <Horologium> old school is wire wrap dude!
[09:22:49] <theBear> i dealt with 68k a little when i collected some old macs a few years back, but 6800 is the one i know inside out.. also focused by the book that taught me EVERYTHING about how computers work and how asm and everything low works and is done
[09:23:13] <theBear> nah, the same monkies that wirewrapped 20 or 30 years ago still do it now, they're just monkies ! it aint for me
[09:23:25] <theBear> plus it reminds me of working on stupid old hifi gear way too much :)
[09:23:47] <Horologium> I was that way with the 6502 some years ago...programming on apple-2 and commodore vic-20 and c-64 boxes.
[09:24:10] <jadew> "some years ago"?
[09:24:19] <Horologium> 20ish?
[09:24:26] <jadew> more like it :P
[09:24:27] <Horologium> more than that.
[09:24:39] <Horologium> when I was 16 or so I got my vic-20
[09:24:48] <Horologium> so, 30ish.
[09:24:52] <jadew> how old are you?
[09:24:55] <Horologium> 45
[09:25:11] <theBear> i think i still got an entire apple-2 except for the case
[09:25:26] <Horologium> taught myself 6502 assembly before many in here were born I bet.
[09:25:35] <theBear> i had to leave the 'classic macs' behind when i moved states, had err, original, se and umm, mac2 i think
[09:25:40] <theBear> hehe
[09:25:58] <Horologium> I have an old powerpc mac downstairs...not sure what model...
[09:26:03] <Horologium> no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse.
[09:26:07] <theBear> pfft ! that's not old !
[09:26:14] <jadew> Horologium, pretty nice to have lived back in the computer sci-fi period
[09:26:17] <Horologium> sold my original mac.
[09:26:21] <jadew> whith all the cool movies
[09:26:38] <Horologium> jadew, startrek had tablet computers!
[09:26:42] <Horologium> before they had picard.
[09:26:54] <jadew> not talking about startrek
[09:27:31] <jadew> let me see if I can find one of my fav. movies from back then
[09:27:33] <Horologium> startrek envisioned a lot of what we take for granted nowadays.
[09:27:42] <Horologium> cellphones for example..
[09:27:57] <theBear> old mac were only good for kings quest, glider!!!! and that one with the orbs, MAYBE dragonquest
[09:27:57] <Horologium> the guy who invented cellphones said he got the idea from startrek communicators.
[09:28:25] <theBear> it was 90% platform with kinda kings quest style bits inbetween, awesome game
[09:28:37] <theBear> and i cannot for the life of me find ONE PERSON who remembers it
[09:28:51] <Horologium> never played games on the mac...it was mostly a conversation piece.
[09:28:53] <theBear> but glider, oooh, that's the whole reason i got ancient macs and copies of ancient system disks and stuff
[09:29:02] <Horologium> give me Elite any day!
[09:29:16] <jadew> Horologium: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089114/
[09:29:22] <jadew> seen it?
[09:29:23] <theBear> the rich families had those compact macs (screen built in, handle on top, you know) when i was in school
[09:29:41] <Horologium> jadew, yup..have it on vhs somewhere.
[09:29:47] <jadew> love it!
[09:29:54] <jadew> I also loved it as a kid
[09:29:54] <Horologium> theBear, that's the one I had...
[09:30:14] <theBear> apart from those i only ever saw bbc b and c64 and a single HUGE wall-mounted (like several airconditioners, took out half the room) unix machine at one buddies house.. they weren't rich, but his dad was some kinda fancy scientist dude... had space invader s:)
[09:30:20] <Horologium> sold it to a collector for 300 dollars.
[09:30:40] <theBear> damn ! i salvaged my 3 from a room with a 20' high stack of them for free :)
[09:30:57] <Horologium> had the original box and all for mine...
[09:31:03] <Horologium> box was even in good shape.
[09:31:06] <Horologium> that's why I got the money for it.
[09:31:18] <theBear> bunch of friends of friends had been doing the corporate auction -> put all working parts together -> sell for some profit thing in a big old warehouse, only the lease ran out on them :)
[09:31:38] <theBear> got a 21" fixed freq black trinitron server monitor and a couple other things too
[09:32:05] <theBear> that place was crazy, i know it was the end of days, but there were giant sculptures on the roof made of monitors, literally mountains of various kinds of computers and hardware bits
[09:32:32] <Horologium> jadew, ethan hawke got his start in that movie.
[09:36:38] <Horologium> http://www.bugcomic.com/comics/rollercoasters/
[10:42:36] <ambro718> lwIP in atmega1284p, is it possible? (128k flash, 16k ram)
[10:42:50] <Horologium> umm.
[10:42:55] <Horologium> what is IwIP?
[10:43:40] <ambro718> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lwip
[10:44:02] <Horologium> yeah yeah yeah.
[10:44:06] <Horologium> you could just say.
[10:44:14] <ambro718> :D
[10:45:06] <Horologium> http://tuxgraphics.org/electronics/200611/article06111.shtml
[10:45:19] <Horologium> it is possible to do tcp/ip on an avr.
[10:45:22] <Horologium> even an atmega88
[10:45:35] <Horologium> you will need some extra hardware though.
[10:45:51] <Horologium> like, an ethernet interface chip....such as the enc28j60
[10:45:56] <ambro718> I'm asking about lwIP specifically
[10:46:07] <ambro718> and I don't need an ethernet chip, I can use serial
[10:46:24] <ambro718> (and drive a tun/tap on the host with a helper program)
[10:47:08] <Horologium> here,,,let me google that for you
[10:47:09] <Horologium> https://code.google.com/p/lwip-avr/
[10:47:46] <ambro718> okay, so there is some chance of getting it to work, but if I go that way I'll likely make my own port
[10:48:16] <ambro718> since I've had quite some experience with lwIP already (wrote https://code.google.com/p/badvpn/wiki/tun2socks )
[10:48:50] <ambro718> I'll try to use the low-level tcp interface only to save on code/ram space
[10:49:37] <ambro718> I'm most worred about RAM, wikipedia says lwip is made for systems "with tens of kilobytes of free RAM", atmega1284p only has 16k
[10:50:07] <Horologium> part of that is the thing usually runs in ram, not just using it for variable storage as the avr does.
[10:54:40] <ambro718> it uses ram for buffers, I think that's the primary concern
[10:54:55] <ambro718> I'm pretty sure it doesn't run *code* from ram
[10:54:55] <Horologium> so adjust your buffer size accordingly.
[10:56:04] <Horologium> heck, I've seen a full tcp/ip stack and web browser run on 64k of ram for both program and data...it was links the text web browser, but still.
[10:56:51] <ambro718> yes, I know. But if lwIP doesn't cut it, uIP probably will
[10:57:31] <ambro718> or write my own TCP/IP :D
[10:57:33] <Horologium> the tuxgraphics web server and web client and tcp/ip stack are pretty interesting, even though they are built for the enc28j60 chip.
[10:57:45] <Horologium> they did some major buffer limits with it but it still works.
[10:58:49] <ambro718> yes, the nice thing about TCP flow control is... well, the TCP flow control. The receiving side can control how much it wants to buffer and it makes the sending side stop sending until it can receive more.
[10:59:29] <ambro718> so you can make your receive buffers small at the expense of slower transfer (round-trips for window update or something like that)
[11:01:14] <Horologium> http://tuxgraphics.org/electronics/200901/avr-ethernet-realtime.shtml
[11:01:20] <Horologium> remove the tcp/ip overhead.
[11:02:03] <ambro718> sure, but I need tcp/ip
[11:02:07] <Horologium> oh.
[11:03:55] <Horologium> is a nifty little application even so.
[11:04:36] <Horologium> haven't tried it myself yet but still looks interesting.
[11:05:58] <ambro718> any AVR chip with more than 16k RAM?
[11:06:16] <ambro718> I've looked at some xmega and have only seen 8 and 16k
[11:06:26] <Horologium> not in the mega series.
[11:06:32] <Horologium> xmega is the only that might.
[11:06:49] <Horologium> unless you go avr32 which is a whole other world.
[11:07:33] <Horologium> it is possible to add external sram to certain atmega chips.
[11:07:41] <Horologium> like the atmega8515 and atmega128 and others.
[11:08:16] <ambro718> unless coding for avr32 is little more than compiling C-only code with avr32-gcc, then I'm not doing it
[11:09:07] <Horologium> that's about it..the hardware can be a bit more complex though.
[11:09:10] <ambro718> i.e., do I have to write magic setup assembly, or go looking for hidden C libraries across the web?
[11:09:50] <ambro718> (I'm thinking of af at91lib for atmel's ARM chips. That thing is impossible to get, let alone use.)
[11:10:05] <Horologium> it's much like arm but everything should be available right at the atmel site.
[11:10:20] <Horologium> higher end avr32 chips are capable of running linux.
[11:10:33] <Horologium> how much ram do you need?
[11:10:51] <ambro718> I don't know, 32k would be nice
[11:11:08] <Horologium> look at some of the atmega chips with external ram interface like the atmega128
[11:11:18] <Horologium> I've put 64K of sram on that.
[11:11:45] <ambro718> so, can I get some sample code running on an avr32, from Linux, with use of only open source software?
[11:11:52] <Horologium> actually, put 128K and did bank switching on an atmega8515 some while back too.
[11:12:04] <Horologium> sure..
[11:12:13] <ambro718> hm, yes, I'll definitely look into external ram
[11:12:17] <Horologium> atmel built the avr32 to run linux and be programmed in C from what I understand.
[11:12:48] <ambro718> bank switching? I'm planning to write in plain C.
[11:12:53] <ambro718> no assembly hacks
[11:13:00] <Horologium> avr32 is more like an arm chip than the microcontroller that the atmega is.
[11:13:15] <ambro718> it has a MMU then?
[11:13:24] <Horologium> so you can run up to 64K of external sram on an atmega128
[11:13:49] <Horologium> avr32, yeah, I believe it does.
[11:13:58] <ambro718> so what's up with the bank switching? Is this handled by the compiler or do I need to hack it?
[11:14:17] <Horologium> for bank switching it was a hack...I did it for multitasking.
[11:14:32] <ambro718> how much external ram can I add without bank switching?
[11:14:33] <Horologium> each task had its own ram block..
[11:14:36] <Horologium> 64K
[11:14:46] <Horologium> the full 16 bits of address space.
[11:14:49] <ambro718> ok that will be sufficient
[11:14:55] <ambro718> thanks for all the tips!
[11:14:56] <Horologium> minus the register section,,,like the base 256 bytes.
[11:16:12] <Horologium> there are several atmega chips with external ram interfaces.
[11:16:31] <Horologium> that external ram interface is good for other things too...like memory mapped i/o.
[11:16:41] <OndraSter_> yep
[11:16:53] <Horologium> connecting to things like 8522 chips ripped out of C64 boxes.
[11:17:54] <theBear> interesting.... never considered that
[11:18:02] <Horologium> and even a real 16550 uart
[11:18:16] <theBear> 16byte fifo ! oh yeah !
[11:19:09] <Horologium> can access lots of z80 perhiperal chips that way too.
[11:19:50] <theBear> any old-style discrete bus peripherals
[11:19:53] <Horologium> even if I can't spell it.
[11:20:16] <theBear> :)
[11:20:57] <Horologium> hmm...avr & sid chip anyone?
[11:20:59] <Horologium> or
[11:21:07] <Horologium> avr & sid & vic chip!
[11:21:24] <theBear> i'm gonna run a emu8000 one of these days, probly on the existing sbawe via isa :)
[11:21:53] <theBear> i can't keep a machine with isa and dos just for music forever, so i figure turn it into hardware :)
[11:22:41] <theBear> reminds me, i got a handful of solidstate record/playback chips, like from an old cheap answering machine or similar... think they might make a nice mini-sampler or more likely drummachine
[11:22:47] <theBear> i like drummachines, i collect them even
[11:23:24] <Horologium> I'm not a big drum person.
[11:23:39] <Horologium> wish I could find my old c-64 voice module.
[11:24:10] <Horologium> sounds just like the weather radio voice.
[11:24:14] <theBear> ooh, 16gig copy finished.. nice, to the other room !
[11:27:59] <Horologium> with the external memory interface you can even make a display.
[11:28:09] <Horologium> flipflops tied to LEDs.
[11:37:34] <ambro718> which programming languages does gcc support for avr?
[11:38:57] <Tom_itx> c c++ asm
[11:39:13] <Horologium> heard of someone using ada too
[11:39:20] <Horologium> but it's not exactly supported.
[11:43:31] <Tom_itx> 4th
[11:43:56] <Horologium> can probably do fortran and pascal too.
[11:45:01] <ambro718> I'd need something very much like C but with sane templates. I don't think this ideal language of mine exists though :D
[11:45:43] <Tom_itx> what's wrong with c?
[11:45:52] <ambro718> generic programming is a pain
[11:46:32] <ambro718> for example when I need timer functionality I want to make it portable and work with a variety of possible timer implementations
[11:47:07] <Tom_itx> ifdef
[11:47:20] <ambro718> I want my code to be easily portable to stuff that's not AVR
[11:47:29] <Horologium> then you need libs
[11:47:48] <Horologium> because things like timers are major different between different architectures.
[11:48:47] <Horologium> I suppose you could go with something like,,,shudder,,,arduino.
[11:49:18] <ambro718> Tom_itx: it gets more complex. For example even on the same MCU, there could be many ways to implement a timer. You might want to use a specific hardware timer for a specific feature, for low latency, or you might want to share one hardware timer to serve multiple separate features.
[11:49:43] <ambro718> I want an easy way to say how the hardware gets mapped to where it is needed
[11:49:58] <Horologium> look at how,,,shudder,,,arduino does it.
[11:50:03] <ambro718> no :)
[11:50:15] <Tom_itx> they don't cross platform either
[11:50:53] <Horologium> don't they have common code for avr and arm based arduinoish devices now?
[11:51:02] <Tom_itx> i kinda don't see that happenin at the µC level
[11:51:13] <ambro718> ideally my code would even run on Linux
[11:51:23] <Tom_itx> this is not an ideal world
[11:51:25] <Horologium> ideally you need a set of libs to deal with.
[11:51:43] <ambro718> yes, I'm going to write those libs (frameworks, the be more precise)
[11:51:58] <Horologium> same smell.
[11:52:37] <Horologium> just making stuff like that portable between avr, pic, and 8051 has given me plenty of headaches.
[11:53:14] <Rickta59> why don't you help me out ambro718 ?
[11:53:18] <ambro718> I know, it's not easy. Especially when you want to minimize the performance/memory cost of the abstractions.
[11:53:47] <ambro718> Rickta59: I don't even know what you problem is
[11:54:06] <Rickta59> not my problem .. your solution .. although i don't have an avr version
[11:54:20] <Rickta59> https://github.com/RickKimball/fabooh
[11:54:47] <Rickta59> i started with the msp430 .. branching into arm cortex-m0 stuff now
[11:55:00] <Rickta59> api that is all c++ template based
[11:55:06] <Rickta59> creates really small code
[11:55:15] <Rickta59> at least on the msp430 .. where i've spent the most effort
[11:55:33] <Rickta59> https://github.com/RickKimball/msp430_code/tree/master/fabooh .. that was the pre arm version
[11:57:00] <ambro718> Rickta59: Interesting, but I don't like how this code doesn't seem to be event-driven.
[11:57:10] <ambro718> for example I saw https://github.com/RickKimball/fabooh/blob/master/examples/serial/echo/echo.cpp
[11:57:13] <ambro718> and the leds example
[11:57:29] <ambro718> I'd expect a function which gets called whenever a byte is received from serial
[11:57:32] <Rickta59> i don't place any burdens on you to prevent hat
[11:58:02] <Rickta59> interrupt driven serial io is actually slower than doing blocking
[11:58:07] <Rickta59> those examples show blocking
[11:58:21] <ambro718> the hypothetical framework I have in mind would be completely asynchronous
[11:58:25] <Rickta59> nothing stopping you from putting in an interrupt handler
[11:58:47] <Rickta59> also i wanted to be able to use the completely cycle couting software serial i have
[11:58:50] <ambro718> and I'm *not* talking about interrupts - the framework can do busy polling if it wishes
[11:59:07] <ambro718> just the interface is event-driven
[11:59:16] <Rickta59> i think when you look at small chips the idea of calling functions falls apart
[11:59:27] <Rickta59> there just isn't enough time
[11:59:36] <ambro718> yes, function pointers may not be very fast
[11:59:54] <Rickta59> inlined templated code is much better
[11:59:58] <Rickta59> as there is no function call
[12:00:09] <ambro718> but, in *theory*, you could use templates to get a similar interface without function pointers
[12:00:12] <Rickta59> and you can decide at compile time how to do what you need to do
[12:00:21] <ambro718> hence templates :)
[12:00:24] <Rickta59> right
[12:00:31] <Rickta59> which is why i'm using templates
[12:00:49] <Rickta59> dump the runtime decisions in favor of compile time
[12:00:56] <Rickta59> you might also look at Cosa
[12:01:00] <Rickta59> do you know of that?
[12:01:24] <ambro718> but I'd like to use them to make an asynchronous interface. If I can't use the framweork to run on Linux properly (no busy wait), I'm not satisfied.
[12:01:45] <ambro718> no, I don't know what Cosa is, can you give a link?
[12:01:47] <Rickta59> yeah not in my goal .. to support linux .. i'd just use node.js
[12:01:55] <Rickta59> https://github.com/mikaelpatel/Cosa
[12:01:56] <Horologium> try google.com
[12:02:03] <ambro718> Horologium: I did :D
[12:02:12] <ambro718> no obvious correct hit
[12:02:25] <Rickta59> i never heard of it either ..
[12:02:36] <Rickta59> he had started following me on github after i posted about fabooh
[12:02:40] <Rickta59> and i just happen to find it
[12:03:38] <Rickta59> he is using a event driven scheme with proto trheads
[12:04:33] <Rickta59> my new benchmark to see if something is a reasonable architecture is if it can drive ws2811 chips : )
[12:06:39] <ambro718> Cosa definitely seems closer to what I want
[12:07:42] <Rickta59> probably
[12:07:43] <ambro718> hm, what the heck are those .ino extensions?
[12:07:45] <Rickta59> too bloated for me
[12:08:01] <ambro718> it sure looks very much like C++
[12:08:02] <Rickta59> means that is cpp code meant for arduino environment
[12:08:12] <ambro718> lol
[12:08:22] <Rickta59> you can just slap includes on it and ignore that it is ino
[12:09:28] <ambro718> eew, inheritance
[12:09:37] <Rickta59> you can use it for ideas
[12:09:52] <ambro718> yes, looks like a more sensible use
[12:10:10] <Rickta59> have you looked at the mbed api?
[12:10:25] <ambro718> no.
[12:10:32] <Rickta59> some sensible constructs in there also
[12:11:01] <ambro718> maybe will take a look, but it seems tied to one piece of hardware
[12:11:02] <Rickta59> geared towards arm chips
[12:11:17] <Rickta59> the api is the thing to look at .. not the implementation
[12:13:10] <Rickta59> http://mbed.org/users/mbed_official/code/mbed-src/
[12:13:32] <Rickta59> two interfaces .. one c and the other c++
[12:14:16] <ambro718> which one is the real one?
[12:14:25] <Rickta59> which ever you use
[12:14:29] <ambro718> i.e. not implemented on top of the other
[12:14:33] <Rickta59> c
[12:15:49] <ambro718> looking at serial_api.h, uses function pointer
[12:15:51] <ambro718> for callbeck
[12:16:20] <Rickta59> you sounded like you hadn't seen these.. so i just pointed them out
[12:16:26] <Rickta59> not ideal .. just food for thought
[12:16:35] <ambro718> in my library I'm going to try to do it without a function pointer, with templates
[12:16:51] <Rickta59> crtp
[12:16:58] <ambro718> I'm not really sure if it's possible though. Might need a bit of source code generation.
[12:17:05] <Rickta59> that is how i implement my print_t stuff
[12:17:34] <Rickta59> my stuff looks simple if look at the sample code
[12:17:54] <Rickta59> but underneath it allows you to switch in different serial handlers ..
[12:17:56] <Rickta59> timer based
[12:17:58] <Rickta59> uart based
[12:18:03] <Rickta59> software only based
[12:18:17] <Rickta59> the example code doesn't change other than including a different header
[12:18:46] <Rickta59> but underneath it is using compile time handlers to provide static polymorphism
[12:19:55] <ambro718> where is this code?
[12:20:09] <Rickta59> print_t.h is a good one to look at for how that is used
[12:20:35] <ambro718> but where is it?
[12:20:38] <Rickta59> https://github.com/RickKimball/msp430_code/blob/master/fabooh/msp430/cores/fabooh/print_t.h
[12:20:49] <Rickta59> that works hand in had with the any of the serial classes
[12:21:12] <Rickta59> line 302 calls a write_impl
[12:21:24] <Rickta59> the various serial classes implement that in different ways
[12:21:43] <Rickta59> https://github.com/RickKimball/msp430_code/blob/master/fabooh/msp430/cores/fabooh/drivers/usciserial430.h
[12:21:48] <Rickta59> uart one is pretty simple
[12:22:01] <Rickta59> https://github.com/RickKimball/msp430_code/blob/master/fabooh/msp430/cores/fabooh/drivers/swserial430.h
[12:22:06] <ambro718> yes, I get how that works. It's a bigger problem when you want to do async calls without runtime dispatch (function pointer/virtual function).
[12:22:09] <Rickta59> that one is all done using software cycle counting
[12:22:38] <Rickta59> that is what that code does
[12:22:52] <Rickta59> you could do the same thing for an interrupt handler
[12:23:11] <Rickta59> and have it call a user defined function that doesn't result in calls
[12:23:25] <Rickta59> just a matter of creating a template and creating the proper functions
[12:23:58] <Rickta59> i have a timer based serial routine that does just that
[12:24:07] <Rickta59> i just don't have it posted
[12:24:13] <ambro718> where do you have an async callback?
[12:24:32] <Rickta59> i would consider handling an interrupt an async callback
[12:25:23] <ambro718> so where are you handling an interrupt in the above serial code?
[12:25:35] <Rickta59> i'm not i just said i haven't got that one posted
[12:25:56] <ambro718> somehow I think it's going to be hard to write :)
[12:26:07] <Rickta59> not that hard
[12:26:22] <Rickta59> i'll ping you when i finish the other stuff that is using it
[12:26:45] <ambro718> ok that would be nice, thanks. I'll pop in here from time to time.
[12:27:04] <ambro718> (and I'm sure to tell you if I make any progess on my own framework)
[12:27:07] <Rickta59> heh .. i'm mostly in #43oh .. was in here trying to unload some chips
[12:27:30] <ambro718> ok :)
[12:27:33] <ambro718> got to go now, bye
[12:32:05] <mindw0rk> Hey guys a little electronics question.
[12:33:00] <mindw0rk> Let's say i'm designing a little usb gizmo with an atmega8 on it and a LiPo battery
[12:33:41] <mindw0rk> I want to be able to change the battery, and give power to the avr when connected to usb
[12:34:00] <tzanger> ok
[12:34:03] <mindw0rk> but once disconnected I want the circuit to switch to battery power
[12:34:29] <mindw0rk> I'm not sure what this circuit would looks like
[12:34:37] <tzanger> a mosfet would work for that, as would steering diodes but you lose abotu 0.5V with them
[12:34:38] <mindw0rk> look*
[12:35:10] <mindw0rk> 0.5 seems feasible to deal with
[12:38:04] <tzanger> mindw0rk: http://www.mixdown.ca/dump/charge.png
[12:38:13] <tzanger> that's what I'm using, you can get away with a much smaller mosfet
[12:38:18] <tzanger> probably even SOT23
[12:39:19] <tzanger> connect the charge lead to USB's +5 for automatic charging or to the avr for sw control
[12:39:40] <tzanger> although if I were you I would recommend a dedicated charge circuit, I'm charging lead-acid batteries with this which are MUCH more forgiving
[12:39:54] <tzanger> lithium technology batteries are flat-out dangerous to mishandle
[12:40:04] <tzanger> most of them have built-in charge controllers but I don't know if yours does
[12:40:11] <mindw0rk> I'm thinking about a MCP73831
[12:40:34] <mindw0rk> sparkfun has one in their little usb LiPo chargers
[12:40:42] <tzanger> that is probably not a bad idea then
[13:04:27] <RikusW> in you use less than 300mA it should be fine
[13:05:08] <mindw0rk> wait what? Please explain.
[13:12:41] <mindw0rk> RikusW: You're telling me I can connect my main circuit to the AAT3681 BAT pin?
[13:13:04] <RikusW> well I have a SIM900 and PA6H GPS connected while charging
[13:13:08] <RikusW> works just fine
[13:13:10] <RikusW> so far
[13:13:38] <RikusW> and that ic is rather cheap too
[13:13:44] <mindw0rk> yeah, well I have some leds
[13:13:45] <RikusW> but its 0.5mm pitch
[13:14:00] <RikusW> J leaded too..
[13:14:08] <mindw0rk> so usb + battery might give me too much current, no?
[13:14:13] <RikusW> I had to use some wick to solder it properly
[13:14:26] <RikusW> its very very tiny
[13:14:49] <mindw0rk> isin't the MCP73831 even tinier?
[13:15:00] <RikusW> usb without battery isn't such a good idea...
[13:15:12] <RikusW> my SIM900 kept resetting...
[13:15:29] <RikusW> but then again GPRS takes 2A pulsed current
[13:15:38] <mindw0rk> heh
[13:16:06] <RikusW> its smaller but got 8 pins...
[13:16:37] <mindw0rk> the ti controller has a sot23 package
[13:16:48] <mindw0rk> how can it be tinier than that? ;D
[13:16:50] <RikusW> 2x2.2mm
[13:17:27] <RikusW> vs your 2.8x2.95
[13:17:31] <mindw0rk> dang
[13:17:49] <RikusW> I was just able to solder it ;)
[13:18:49] <RikusW> its even smaller than your ic's dfn package :-D
[13:19:25] <RikusW> seems its almost the same in functionality ?
[13:19:36] <RikusW> looks like about the same circuit to me
[13:19:41] <RikusW> only different ic
[13:20:00] <mindw0rk> pretty much, I'm not sure on the availability of the aat3681
[13:20:15] <mindw0rk> the ti one I can get prettu cheap in less then a week
[13:20:37] <mindw0rk> I'll look in to it
[13:20:43] <RikusW> I got the AAT3681 from RS
[13:20:50] <RikusW> about $1
[13:21:17] <RikusW> http://www.otto.co.za/index.php?page=product&p=580&name=Miniature%20Quad-Band%20GSM/GPRS%20surface%20mount%20module
[13:21:19] <RikusW> sim900
[13:21:34] <RikusW> price in ZAR
[13:28:12] <mindw0rk> this module is pretty damn cool
[13:28:14] <mindw0rk> and cheap
[13:37:18] <tzanger> yeah I was looking at those modules for a project
[13:37:20] <tzanger> they look nifty
[13:37:26] <tzanger> I have a bunch of others to investigate as well
[13:37:42] <megal0maniac> What is /dev/pts?
[13:42:16] <RikusW> and you can load custom code onto a SIM900 using their EmbeddedAT API
[13:42:16] <RikusW> only the SIM900 not SIM900R
[13:42:17] <RikusW> megal0maniac: iirc pseudoterminal
[13:43:09] <RikusW> http://www.otto.co.za/index.php?page=product&p=913&name=Miniature%20GPS%20Module,%20SMT,%2066%20Channel%20with%20Patch%20Antenna%20and%20Switching%20Circuitry%20for%20External%20Antenna
[13:43:16] <RikusW> GPS I'm using
[14:49:56] * megal0maniac has found minicom :D
[14:53:23] <megal0maniac> No more using of screen for serial
[14:53:54] <twnqx> Oo
[14:53:59] <tzanger> heh
[14:55:59] <RikusW> megal0maniac: you've probably seen ^A Q quits by now ?
[14:56:11] <RikusW> ^A O for options
[14:56:28] <twnqx> q?
[14:56:37] <RikusW> in minicom
[14:56:40] <twnqx> i thougt x
[14:56:41] <twnqx> meh
[14:56:56] <RikusW> ^A Z for menu
[14:56:57] <OndraSter_> dear internet, WORK
[14:56:57] <twnqx> ah, both
[14:57:00] <OndraSter_> I can't even watch ytb
[14:57:06] <OndraSter_> I now feel your pain, RikusW
[14:57:17] <RikusW> OndraSter_: for how long has it been like that ?
[14:57:21] <OndraSter_> two days
[14:57:22] <OndraSter_> :D
[14:57:35] <RikusW> OndraSter_: for the last few days internet was slow over here too..
[14:57:41] <OndraSter_> IT IS WORLD WIDE ISSUE!
[14:57:49] <RikusW> dropping the ADSL connection frequently...
[14:57:57] * RikusW wonders why ?... :S
[14:58:05] <OndraSter_> I am getting sometimes some great packetloss
[14:58:07] <OndraSter_> 50% ish
[14:58:10] <OndraSter_> now it is 10% ish
[14:58:15] <twnqx> i found my main download link to run at 400kB/s instead of the usual 65MB/s :S
[14:58:16] <OndraSter_> which is still more than it used to be (0)
[14:58:18] <OndraSter_> :D
[14:58:25] <OndraSter_> are you in university?
[14:58:29] <OndraSter_> on*
[14:58:32] <twnqx> nah, datacenter server
[14:58:35] <OndraSter_> ah
[14:58:48] <jacekowski> i can still download my porn at full 80Mbit speed
[14:58:49] <RikusW> what could possible be wrong ?!!
[14:58:51] <jacekowski> so no issues here
[14:59:02] <RikusW> this is getting annoying...
[14:59:28] <OndraSter_> I know what is wrong here
[14:59:35] <OndraSter_> the main link between two routers broke down like... before winter
[14:59:41] <OndraSter_> and now it is routing through few more routers
[14:59:44] <OndraSter_> via bad connection
[15:00:18] <OndraSter_> huh
[15:00:23] <OndraSter_> non port 80 stuff goes fast
[15:00:28] <OndraSter_> torrent goes 500kB - 2MB/s
[15:00:37] <OndraSter_> but port 80 barely works
[15:00:42] <OndraSter_> (just as whatever port minecraft works on)
[15:01:32] <OndraSter_> let's shut down torrent to see what happens
[15:01:50] <RikusW> maybe the torrent is eating it all ;)
[15:01:56] <OndraSter_> ok, even worse now lol
[15:02:25] <RikusW> earlier today /ping myself took 65s....
[15:02:30] <OndraSter_> lol
[15:02:39] <RikusW> now its 1s
[15:02:41] <RikusW> or 0s
[15:02:56] <RikusW> and thats on 4MBit
[15:03:05] <OndraSter_> Mbit or MByte?
[15:03:14] <RikusW> router continuously drops connection - MBit
[15:04:53] <megal0maniac> RikusW: We've got Telkom doing crap to the exchanges
[15:10:25] <inkjetunito> internet use is b44d
[18:45:24] <coleman-> i want to connect a hose to the normal, household tap, and clean something one story up. is this likely to work without adding a water pump or something?
[18:50:01] <GuShH> coleman-: where do you live?
[18:50:18] <coleman-> gushh california
[18:50:23] <GuShH> city water?
[18:50:27] <coleman-> yes
[18:50:44] <GuShH> so it's pressurized already
[18:51:10] <GuShH> (is there a pressure regulator where the main pipe enters the house?)
[18:52:29] <coleman-> I don't think so, or I don't know where it is
[18:52:40] <GuShH> us, au, etc. seem to range from 30 to 100 psi in general
[18:53:28] <GuShH> coleman-: why are you on IRC asking instead of just trying?
[18:53:51] <GuShH> most likely you'll get enough pressure, otherwise get a pressure washer and if that's overkill, hire someone with a professional steam cleaner perhaps?
[18:53:59] <coleman-> I don't have a hose and attachment for the tap, and if it won't work there's no point in going out to the store and buy it
[18:54:14] <GuShH> You probably don't have a pressure meter either
[18:54:16] <coleman-> +ing
[18:54:22] <GuShH> So we are still on square 1
[18:54:36] <GuShH> If you had a regulator on the house you'd be able to see where it's set (unless it's the old style)
[18:54:51] <coleman-> I have measured the flow rate, if it means anything. it was around 8 gallons a minute
[18:55:11] <GuShH> of course it still depends on the overall usage on the system, back in the other house we used to get very little pressure during the first weeks of summer (everyone filling up their pool)
[18:55:19] <GuShH> flow rate is irrelevant
[18:55:36] <coleman-> yeah? that's a bit counterintuitive
[18:55:47] <GuShH> think of the flow rate as the lanes on a highway and the pressure as the speed of the vehicles.
[18:55:55] <Horologium> actual flow rate vs maximum flow rate are three different things.
[18:56:14] <Horologium> without knowing how wide the highway is, flow rate is kinda useless by itself.
[18:56:18] <GuShH> you can have a high pressure but very little flow rate, as seen on water jet CNCs
[18:56:30] <GuShH> Horologium : talking nonsense again?
[18:56:33] <coleman-> well i can't get higher flow rate than opening tap all the way
[18:56:37] <Horologium> yes.
[18:56:41] <GuShH> flow rate is irrelevant
[18:56:45] <GuShH> you can have a 20 inch hose
[18:56:50] <GuShH> and if the pressure is not enough, you won't get shit.
[18:57:01] <vectory> well, _if_ flow rate is comparable to amps, then measuring the amps on two different hight levels should give you an idea about the voltage, aka the pressure.
[18:57:19] <GuShH> vectory: for that he would need to buy the fittings and hose
[18:57:24] <GuShH> might as well not even care about measuring it
[18:57:26] <GuShH> and just go for it
[18:57:32] <vectory> right :/
[18:57:47] <GuShH> may I suggest you buy a bucket?
[18:57:50] * GuShH grins
[18:58:02] <vectory> :))
[18:58:18] <Tom_itx> borrow a fire truck
[18:58:23] <GuShH> that could work
[18:58:30] <vsync_> borrow a firefighter helicopter
[18:58:33] <GuShH> I would lend you my honda water pump... but we live far, far away
[18:58:49] <GuShH> plus your neighbours may hate you for it
[18:59:03] <GuShH> heck you might even go to jail I don't think it has a spark arrestor
[18:59:22] <GuShH> vsync_: pffft. firefighter quadcopter is where it's at.
[18:59:43] <GuShH> delivering shot-glass sized solutions to your fires!
[19:00:07] * GuShH heard about a company delivering pizzas with quadcopters in europe
[19:00:14] <vsync_> as i do rc myself, i hate all the quadcopter-fags
[19:00:27] <vsync_> they are just people without a clue over anything, and who can't even fly
[19:00:33] <GuShH> they are like arduinians
[19:00:42] <vsync_> like raspberrypi
[19:00:44] <vsync_> ...
[19:00:56] * GuShH hands vsync_ a cup of coffee
[19:01:06] <vsync_> it's 2:57 AM here, wtf
[19:01:09] <GuShH> black no sugar.
[19:01:12] <vsync_> timezones my friend
[19:01:19] <vsync_> yes i drink my coffee black ty :)
[19:01:25] <GuShH> 20:47
[19:01:29] <vsync_> shaken, not stirred?
[19:01:30] <GuShH> now if only you were a woman...
[19:01:42] <vsync_> how so
[19:01:46] * GuShH eyes one of vectory's wigs
[19:01:52] <vsync_> oh sorry, i mean 2:47 am
[19:02:17] <vsync_> is 9 pm a good time to get nookied or what are you trying to tell me
[19:02:31] <GuShH> not quite
[19:02:36] <vsync_> elaborate
[19:02:42] <GuShH> I'd rather not
[19:02:45] <GuShH> joke wasn't good enough
[19:05:50] <vsync_> i need my servos, stupid brits, delivery taking long
[19:06:00] <GuShH> :(
[19:06:14] <GuShH> blooooody waaaankaaas
[19:06:18] <vsync_> yes
[19:06:29] <vsync_> i have to get my new plane back up to the skiez
[19:06:43] <vsync_> it's clearly not happy on the ground
[19:07:17] <GuShH> naturally
[19:07:24] <GuShH> I'm afraid to ask if it's electric though
[19:07:28] <GuShH> Since I'm a glow guy
[19:08:26] <vsync_> yeah, 'tis
[19:08:35] <GuShH> bleeeeh
[19:08:41] <vsync_> never been into glow, flown for around 8 years
[19:08:57] <Horologium> GuShH, ever fly 4-stroke engines?
[19:09:18] <vsync_> should though, 2-stroke's so the 80s
[19:09:29] <vsync_> and the noise and everything's constantly covered in oil
[19:09:29] <GuShH> Horologium: no
[19:09:32] <GuShH> wanted to
[19:09:33] <GuShH> why?
[19:09:41] <Horologium> friend of mine had a super telmaster way back when in the late 80s that had a 120 4-stroke on it.
[19:09:45] <Horologium> awesome plane.
[19:09:49] <vsync_> GuShH: what kind of flying do you do
[19:09:51] <GuShH> nice
[19:09:55] <GuShH> I don't fly anymore
[19:09:56] <Horologium> we used it for towing up my gliders.
[19:10:05] <vsync_> well, flew then?
[19:10:19] <vsync_> Horologium: that must've been hella expensive back in the day
[19:10:20] <GuShH> I always wanted a 4 stroke "rotary" engine
[19:10:36] <Horologium> vsync_, it was..
[19:10:42] * GuShH thinks it had 5 cylinders
[19:10:50] <Horologium> GuShH, those are even more expensive...did see one run once though.
[19:10:55] <vsync_> I pretty much just fly 3d...
[19:11:00] <GuShH> never seen one run, only small 4 strokes and turbines
[19:11:23] <vsync_> and i stripped god damn plastic gear aileron servos
[19:11:29] <Horologium> saw a turbine once too but the guy couldn't get it to stay running long enough to get the plane off the ground.
[19:11:32] <GuShH> time for metal
[19:11:46] <vsync_> yes, but they are very expensive over here, so got some from the brits
[19:11:56] <GuShH> this one was on a bench, way noisier than standing near an actual airliner... at least it was for me
[19:12:24] <Horologium> the one in the plane was noisy as heck too.
[19:12:35] <GuShH> so are model 4 strokes actual 4 strokes or are they a sort of hybrid?
[19:12:40] <Horologium> wouldn't run more than 20 or 30 seconds.
[19:12:49] <vsync_> didn't strip them on purpose, but i wanted to test the plane's strength the other day
[19:12:50] <Horologium> they are real 4-stroke with spark plug and all.
[19:12:51] <GuShH> I wonder about the oil
[19:13:04] <vsync_> such as highspeed multiple snaps back to back
[19:13:13] <GuShH> snap it went alright
[19:13:20] <Horologium> I don't remember about the oil...it's been too many years and wasn't my engine.
[19:13:35] <GuShH> right, usually 4 strokes don't like to run on any position
[19:13:46] <GuShH> that's why I wondered about the 4 strokes used on whipper snippers and such
[19:13:50] <vsync_> well, i'm glad i managed to get it down :) when i didn't have pretty much any aileron authority
[19:13:53] <GuShH> although they would be fairly horizontal in that case
[19:14:16] <Horologium> mmmm...tacos for supper here.
[19:14:52] <vsync_> anyway, i live in the city, and there's a good unused field closeby, so I rather fly electric than glow/gas
[19:15:11] <GuShH> vsync_: I had a major crash and I just couldn't afford to keep flying, the crash was caused by heavy cross wind and faulty adhesive mix on the wing, it just snapped in half.
[19:15:13] <vsync_> because, you couldn't fly glow/gas on the field, people would complain hella
[19:15:20] <Horologium> yeah, people get upset with loud engines in the city.
[19:15:26] <vsync_> GuShH: what plane?
[19:15:26] <GuShH> I think it became loose, chattered and eventually caused it to crack
[19:15:46] <vsync_> and had you been flying long?
[19:15:50] <GuShH> vsync_: at the time I had a trainer, top wing nothing fancy with a 46 magnum xl glow engine
[19:15:57] <GuShH> I wasn't the one flying it when that happened
[19:16:01] <vsync_> oh :p
[19:16:10] <vsync_> I mean, generally, years?
[19:16:17] <GuShH> months
[19:16:19] <Horologium> with the new 2.4GHz radios it's much cheaper to get into flying these days.
[19:16:27] <GuShH> Now it's a lot cheaper to fly
[19:16:35] <vsync_> with electric, sure
[19:16:38] <GuShH> I had a club membership and all the crap, it wasn't cheap
[19:16:59] <vsync_> GuShH: I've suggested to start with electrics for everyone :)
[19:17:01] <GuShH> heh we had FM 72MHz
[19:17:03] <vsync_> much easier with less wing loading
[19:17:07] <Horologium> as I live in the middle of nowhere with cornfields and dirt roads all around, flying would be a breeze.
[19:17:22] <GuShH> I'll get back to it eventually
[19:17:38] <vsync_> Horologium: sure. You can get turnigys for $50 and chuck frsky tx module in it, whole set with batt prolly $100
[19:17:59] <vsync_> but if you're comparing to the 80s... Yeh, hella cheaper
[19:18:06] <Horologium> even the mid 90s.
[19:18:13] <vsync_> mmm, yeah
[19:18:15] <Horologium> my last radio was 300 dollars.
[19:18:24] <vsync_> I sold my radio equipment... and I got a chinese
[19:18:27] <Horologium> bought that in 1998
[19:18:29] <vsync_> with frsky 2.4G
[19:18:29] <GuShH> talk about the 60-70s then, it was for rich fags only
[19:18:42] <vsync_> Horologium: But I really want to upgrade to a futaba
[19:18:47] <vsync_> which was what I had
[19:18:52] <Horologium> that's what I had...
[19:18:55] <vsync_> a couple of futabas, actually
[19:18:55] <GuShH> how many channels
[19:18:58] <Horologium> love futaba...
[19:19:04] <GuShH> I had airtronics
[19:19:06] <GuShH> not a fan.
[19:19:06] <vsync_> yep
[19:19:13] <Horologium> was an 8 channel
[19:19:19] <Horologium> could be used for plane or helo.
[19:19:24] <Horologium> but I never could afford the helo.
[19:19:25] <vsync_> I had a 4, 7, and 9 channels
[19:19:27] <GuShH> an 8 channel, programmable... futaba, at the time I got mine would've cost me a fortune
[19:19:27] <vsync_> they were all futabas
[19:19:34] <vsync_> now I have an 8 channel turnigy
[19:19:57] <Horologium> right now I have some nordic modules from sparkfun...that's the extent of my RC systems.
[19:20:04] <GuShH> lol
[19:20:14] <vsync_> I fly mode2, so the throttle/rudder stick is the left, and this turnigy piece of crap doesn't have the small "teeth" on the gimbal
[19:20:28] <GuShH> :(
[19:20:32] <vsync_> so that the throttle axis is completely smooth, as opposed to futabas where it isn't
[19:20:43] <GuShH> yeah
[19:20:46] <Horologium> vsync_, just takes a bit of,,,,modification,,,to fix that.
[19:21:00] <GuShH> piece of plastic? heh
[19:21:01] <vsync_> Horologium: but the gimbals have centering issues, and I generally don't like this radio
[19:21:10] <kennyd> vsync_ it's not the futaba vs non-futaba that makes the difference in smoothness
[19:21:18] <GuShH> here we go
[19:21:31] <GuShH> actually now it's also very easy to train, with sims
[19:21:34] <vsync_> kennyd: the quality of these two radios is noticeable
[19:21:40] <vsync_> Very, very much so
[19:21:48] <GuShH> back when I started I could only get a trainer cable, if someone else had the same radio... and it wasn't a simulation heh
[19:21:56] <vsync_> And read again, I wasn't talking about smoothness
[19:22:07] <vectory> thought futaba were just sensors. was looking for gyros for a min segway. but i'll just go with led-cube or whatever the prof suggests
[19:22:15] <vectory> *mini
[19:22:21] <GuShH> I've first heard Futaba for their radios
[19:22:34] <GuShH> then servos, then possibly VFDs
[19:22:39] <Horologium> futaba has done radios for a LOOONG time.
[19:22:46] <vsync_> I was pointing, that in turnigy, the throttle-rudder gimbal, the throttle axis is smooth, so whenever you touch rudder you also adjust throttle
[19:22:49] <vsync_> which is retarded
[19:22:53] <GuShH> I can't remember the name of these old square looking radios
[19:22:53] <vsync_> Horologium: yes
[19:22:57] <kennyd> vsync_, smooth vs ratcheted throttle stick, no?
[19:23:04] <GuShH> that are probably stilll being made, and are probably still too expensive for me
[19:23:05] <vsync_> kennyd: that, yes
[19:23:41] <kennyd> vsync_, usually version of the radio for helicopters has smooth throttle, for airplanes ratcheted
[19:23:45] <GuShH> the feedback on the throttle gives you a lot more feel
[19:24:11] <GuShH> it wouldn't surprise me if the stick was the same and it just has a missing part inside for the ratchet
[19:24:13] <vsync_> kennyd: yes, but the brand only has a single model of this
[19:24:25] <GuShH> I don't remember how mine was constructed though, been a long time since I opened one up
[19:24:32] <vsync_> or, it has a mode1 also, but that doesn't help
[19:25:01] * GuShH idly messes up vsync_'s trims and whistles around
[19:25:01] <vsync_> and also, that my aileron axis centers +/- 15% from the center, no matter how I calibrate it
[19:25:11] <Horologium> eeww.
[19:25:28] <vsync_> it was $50, so it's understandable. Might sell it to some newbie
[19:25:49] <GuShH> I think my first 4 ch costed over 500 usd
[19:25:57] <GuShH> >_<
[19:25:59] <vsync_> Was thinking of getting a futaba T14SG
[19:26:19] <vsync_> problem is, futaba's own rx's are hella expensive. Might use the frsky-futaba-compatible ones instead
[19:26:30] <vsync_> chinese, rofl
[19:26:32] <coleman-> vsync what radio you have?
[19:26:34] * GuShH wonders why nobody corrected him for saying "costed"
[19:26:49] * GuShH thinks nobody gives a crap or everyone is just high at the moment
[19:26:57] <vsync_> coleman-: a turnigy 9xr w/ frsky djt
[19:27:06] <vsync_> coasted
[19:27:08] <Horologium> not exactly high, but wacked out on some drugs today.
[19:27:13] <GuShH> cost.
[19:27:19] <vsync_> coarsed
[19:27:24] <GuShH> cumshot
[19:27:29] <vsync_> nice
[19:27:33] <GuShH> always
[19:28:46] <GuShH> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_O0h7AZCL4
[19:28:49] <vsync_> t14sg is 14-channels, w/ onboard telemetry. I am probably not going to use telemetry ever, but the model without it, only costs around 50 euros less, so I don't see the point
[19:29:09] <coleman-> vsync planes or helis?
[19:29:16] <GuShH> now you know, for every quadn00b you see, show 'em the video. "you should get this instead, it's much better"
[19:29:23] <Horologium> always wanted to make one with a camera onboard and full flight sensors..
[19:29:26] <vsync_> coleman-: planes
[19:29:29] <vectory> _only_ zomg
[19:29:42] <GuShH> a couple guys had bombers at the club
[19:29:46] <GuShH> always wanted one....
[19:29:48] <vsync_> vectory: it's around 450 € vs 500 €
[19:30:04] <GuShH> they would engage in dog fights and challenge each other to bomb specific targets later on
[19:30:06] <vsync_> thing is, futabas telemtry-capable rx's cost upwards 100€+
[19:30:15] <vectory> vsync_: as i was saying :)
[19:30:20] <vsync_> glad i'm not into telemetry :)
[19:30:30] <coleman-> is smooth throttle good or bad?
[19:30:31] <vsync_> i rather look at the plane, than the fucking tx screen
[19:30:39] <vsync_> coleman-: depends, helis it's good
[19:30:45] <vsync_> planes, not so good
[19:31:19] <vsync_> if you fly mode2 (thrott+rudd on left), when you apply rudder you almost always incidentally apply or decrease throttle too
[19:31:47] <vsync_> and when you stick bang rudder it's easy to overdo it on the throttle too
[19:32:01] <coleman-> yeah makes sense
[19:32:20] <Horologium> vsync_, I liked to move my throttle to the little wheel on top of the transmitter.
[19:32:34] <vsync_> what
[19:32:37] <Horologium> that way no joystick movement would screw with it.
[19:32:46] <vsync_> lol
[19:32:55] <Horologium> my transmitter, 8 channel, had 2 joysticks, 2 3-position switches, and 2 wheels on top.
[19:33:12] <vsync_> well for 3d-flying that wouldn't be an option
[19:33:44] <vsync_> i imagine trying to hover with throttle on a wheel on top :D
[19:33:59] <GuShH> too slow and cumbersome
[19:34:02] <vsync_> or a lot of other maneuvers, heh
[19:34:08] <GuShH> you'd end up crashing
[19:34:16] <Horologium> could turn it with index finger while running joystick with thumb.
[19:34:16] <kennyd> vsync_ wouldn't smooth throttle help when hovering a plane? never did it, I am a heli guy
[19:35:48] <vsync_> nope
[19:36:23] <vsync_> or well, with a hover it doesn't really matter if it's smooth or not
[19:36:56] <vsync_> depends on the plane though too, some require pumping the throttle and some don't
[19:37:27] <vsync_> or, require less
[19:37:51] <vsync_> and when you get it stable, then it requires very little, or none at all
[19:38:21] <vsync_> but it's the initial part when you have to stabilize it, under calm conditions that is. Windy conditions always require pumping it
[19:38:38] <kennyd> yeah, gust
[19:38:40] <Horologium> overall I prefer sailplanes though.
[19:38:55] <coleman-> i dont know what i would get first
[19:39:20] <vsync_> get a trainer
[19:40:52] <vsync_> for radio equipment i can say that futaba's 7C is a great and solid investment
[19:40:59] <vsync_> had it for years
[19:41:17] <coleman-> trainer? sim?
[19:41:23] <vsync_> it's a type of a plane
[19:41:29] <Horologium> trainer is a plane that will pretty much fly itself.
[19:41:37] <Horologium> you just give it suggestions on which way to turn mostly...
[19:41:39] <Valen> I think if i were to get into model areo it'd be FPV with a ramjet
[19:41:41] <Horologium> not quite that simple but,,,
[19:42:12] <vsync_> Valen: i'd suggest to start out with something else first to get the feel for it, rofl
[19:42:19] <vsync_> oh wait
[19:42:20] <vsync_> ramjet
[19:42:22] <vsync_> lol
[19:42:26] <vsync_> ...
[19:42:34] <Valen> go hard or go home ;->
[19:42:44] <Horologium> whatever you get, find someone else nearby who flies and have them give you some pointers, specially on your first flight.
[19:42:47] <Valen> where hard is defined as measuring your speed in mach numbers
[19:43:19] <vsync_> yeah of course
[19:43:41] <Horologium> too many people get a plane, get it off the ground, then can't figure out how to land in one piece.
[19:43:50] <vsync_> trainer is a 'high wing' aircraft
[19:44:53] <vsync_> 3-4 channels, throttle, rudder, elevator (and aileron) probably a good idea to get used to ailerons from the get-go
[19:45:22] <Valen> Perhaps browse hobbyking for a foamy
[19:45:28] <Valen> they bounce when you hit stuff
[19:45:37] <vsync_> qnot all foamies
[19:45:45] <vsync_> deprons, for example
[19:45:57] <Valen> true
[19:46:02] <vsync_> epp is your best bet, but if you land it on the nose, it won't bounce, but breaks the motor mount
[19:46:20] <Horologium> always wanted to make a catch net..
[19:46:20] <Valen> still from HK that should be like $5
[19:46:24] <vsync_> yep
[19:46:43] <Horologium> big net up between two flexible posts..
[19:46:55] <Horologium> just kill power and stall it into the net.
[19:47:26] <vsync_> you could do something knight rider-ish
[19:47:40] <Horologium> not sure what you mean there.
[19:47:41] <vsync_> you fly this big ass gas plane with a cargo bay
[19:47:47] <Horologium> hehe.
[19:47:49] <Horologium> yeah.
[19:47:57] <vsync_> you park that other plane in it in mid air and then some pro lands the transport
[19:47:59] <Horologium> just power it into the cargo bay.
[19:48:11] <Horologium> better to do a cable catch maybe.
[19:48:15] <vsync_> true that
[19:48:25] <Horologium> dangle a string from a big honking helo.
[19:48:25] <vsync_> maybe, the trainer can fly on a leash altogether
[19:48:38] <Horologium> fly your plane into the string and tangle your prop in it..
[19:48:44] <Horologium> then use the helo to let it down easy.
[19:48:49] <vsync_> hmm
[19:49:00] <vsync_> well you could use an edf
[19:49:00] <Horologium> or just a high pole with strings hanging down.
[19:49:06] <Horologium> edf?
[19:49:07] <Valen> FPV dogfights that I can see being fun
[19:49:12] <Valen> electric ducted fan
[19:49:14] <vsync_> electric ducted fan
[19:49:18] <Valen> electric jet basically
[19:49:22] <Horologium> yeah.
[19:49:27] <Valen> note they can be rather loud
[19:49:34] <Horologium> of course.
[19:49:39] <Valen> but they look sexy ;->
[19:49:45] <Horologium> gas ducted fans are loud as hell too.
[19:49:53] <Valen> rather more i presume
[19:49:54] <vsync_> well, louder
[19:50:26] <vsync_> extremepowersystems had their F-16 or F-15 powered by 2x big ass edf's, which ran out of 18S lipos
[19:50:47] <vsync_> 18*3.7 is... something, well fully charged 18*4.2
[19:51:15] <Horologium> did the F-15 have a greater than 1-1 power to weight ratio like the real one?
[19:51:23] <vsync_> I'm thinking it did
[19:51:38] <Horologium> so you could stand it on its tail and throttle up and launch.
[19:52:09] <Valen> I'm pretty sure it would ;->
[19:52:15] <vsync_> that'd be a hard takeoff
[19:52:18] <vsync_> unless
[19:52:28] <vsync_> it's something like 2:1 at least
[19:52:32] <Horologium> well, less than 1G unless you were over 2:1
[19:52:33] <Valen> EDF is normally ~30Krpm?, hydrocarbon is ~100K
[19:52:44] <Valen> just need a sufficently long launch rail
[19:52:59] <Valen> getting into my territory now, rockets ;->
[19:53:08] <Valen> I was going to RATO launch my ramjet
[19:53:47] <vsync_> yeah a bit over 30k I think
[19:53:56] <vsync_> like something lil under 40k
[19:54:10] <vsync_> but 18S lipos i'm thinking it's even more than that
[19:54:27] <Valen> probably not, you will run into the limits of the controllers commutation
[19:54:41] <Valen> but you could run a larger lower KV motor faster with it
[19:54:52] <Valen> 75V there btw
[19:55:10] <vsync_> let's see
[19:55:40] <vsync_> this is a 127 mm fan
[19:55:58] <vsync_> 16 cells, 36250 rpm
[19:56:28] <vsync_> and I think it was these fans they shot up with 18s
[19:56:48] <Valen> yeah, with a 130mm fan they would need a "phat" motor
[19:56:51] <vsync_> srsly too tired to calculate the kv outta that :p
[19:57:04] <vsync_> But yeah, I think higher rpms are doable
[19:57:14] <vsync_> but the esc's have to be something different
[19:57:21] <Valen> 539 kv
[19:57:58] <vsync_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej9gQiSqMz0 there's a XPS video. Some weird plane, not sure how high a cell count they're flying that with
[19:58:06] <vsync_> and cool crash at 4:10+
[19:58:44] <vsync_> think their elevator servo stalled out at well what does it say, over 200 mph anyway
[19:58:52] <vsync_> or servos, they must use 2
[19:59:05] <Valen> sounds cool
[19:59:59] <Valen> looks like a lear
[20:00:06] <vsync_> learjet, a bit y
[20:00:34] <vsync_> on the comments, there's some idiotic suggestion of putting a co2 tank to deploy a parachute incase something like this occurs
[20:00:54] <vsync_> I wonder wtf would happen when you drop a chute at 200 mph flying that low
[20:00:57] <Valen> they make recovery chutes for life size cesnas
[20:01:08] <Valen> make a reefed deployment
[20:01:31] <vsync_> make any deployments, wouldn't work
[20:01:41] <vsync_> you have to fly high and spot the failure on time
[20:01:54] <vsync_> you have to fly _way high_
[20:02:08] <Valen> if you say so
[20:02:23] <vsync_> well, the bungie cord has to extend a lot
[20:02:31] <vsync_> if you drop a chute at 230 mph
[20:02:32] <Valen> with an active deployment you can deploy the chute as fast as you wish
[20:02:43] <vsync_> what does active deployment mean
[20:02:58] <Valen> you don't just let the airflow open the chute
[20:03:02] <Valen> you pop it out with something
[20:03:19] <vsync_> alright, but still, it wouldn't have worked, cause in that case you'd have to fly really high
[20:03:24] <Valen> why?
[20:03:27] <vsync_> well
[20:03:41] <vsync_> oh, you meant an instant opening
[20:03:50] <Valen> open as fast as you need to
[20:03:56] <vsync_> yes
[20:04:04] <vsync_> but how about the bungie
[20:04:10] <Valen> don't use one
[20:04:17] <vsync_> and rip the plane to fucking shreds?
[20:04:29] <Valen> presumably use an airspeed indicator and open the chute at some rate to limit G loading
[20:04:42] <Valen> all the rockets we use don't have elastic
[20:04:47] <Valen> you put a screamer in
[20:04:57] <Valen> if you use elastic it will bounce back through the chute
[20:05:18] <vsync_> yes but i'd say a plane is way more fragile
[20:05:46] <Valen> most hobby rockets are made out of cardboard
[20:06:11] <vsync_> well, then it's light
[20:06:15] <Valen> a screamer attached to the main spar should do you a 230mph to zeo
[20:06:37] <vsync_> yes, well, bringing a cardboard tube into a dead stop vs bringing an electric aeroplane to a dead stop
[20:06:39] <Valen> I was trying to compare like with like, I was thinking what happens when something goes wrong and it deploys under power
[20:06:40] <Valen> or at mach
[20:06:42] <vsync_> see the difference?
[20:06:52] <Valen> mach 1.4 vs 200mph see the difference?
[20:07:01] <vsync_> yes i do, but it's still cardboard.
[20:07:16] <Valen> do you know what a screamer is?
[20:07:22] <vsync_> if you'd have to govern the deployment vs speed
[20:07:32] <vsync_> that wouldn't work when you'd need it to, probably
[20:07:50] <Valen> in that paticular instance he had several seconds to react
[20:07:54] <vsync_> if you wouldn't use something elastic, it wouldn't work, and would rip the plane most likely
[20:08:02] <Valen> elastic doesnt work
[20:08:07] <vsync_> how do you suggest he stops the plane?
[20:08:09] <Valen> you aren't disipating the energy
[20:08:12] <vsync_> when it's going haywire
[20:08:26] <vsync_> and no elevator authority
[20:08:28] <Valen> with a screamer http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/screamer/
[20:08:33] <Valen> attached to the chute
[20:08:55] <vsync_> still saying, wouldn't work
[20:09:01] <Valen> do you know what one is?
[20:09:05] <Valen> yes or no?
[20:09:07] <vsync_> just read
[20:09:24] <Horologium> they are fun for climbing.
[20:09:37] <Horologium> one time use really, but you don't want to fall too many times.
[20:10:01] <Valen> vsync_: put it this way, they have ballistic recovery chutes for life sized cesnas
[20:10:10] <vsync_> sure
[20:10:22] <vsync_> but the thing you're not understanding, is how fragile those planes actually are
[20:10:23] <Horologium> Valen, but model aircraft aren't really strong enough for such things one wouldn't think.
[20:10:24] <vsync_> RC ones
[20:10:41] <vsync_> they aren't made out of alloys my friend
[20:10:53] <Valen> material properties scale such that a smaller craft is stronger per unit size than a larger one
[20:11:18] <vsync_> and?
[20:11:22] <vsync_> oh
[20:11:23] <Valen> pretty sure that plane was pulling 4+G's in the corners, if you did that in a life sized lear you would snap the wings off
[20:12:15] <Valen> do the maths on it, I think you will be suprised
[20:12:22] <vsync_> there's a point
[20:12:43] <vsync_> But that's theory, really, I want to see someone try and do that
[20:12:55] <vsync_> and it snaps the plane in half, most likely
[20:13:19] <Valen> so design it not to do that
[20:13:21] <vsync_> and not sure about 4Gs, but sure, why not
[20:13:33] <Valen> heres a life sized one in action btw http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jgfG2DfPB6I#t=122s
[20:13:38] <vsync_> yes, seen em
[20:13:43] <vsync_> Valen: thing is, you cannot
[20:14:21] <vsync_> I haven't meddled with jets, but with model aeroplanes a lot. There's no way I can see a jet to be brought to a dead stop out of 230 mph
[20:14:32] <Valen> so don't do that
[20:14:48] <Horologium> vsync_, sure you can...very easy...just use a solid object to arrest its forward movement.
[20:14:50] <Valen> slow it over 10 meters, 20 meters even
[20:14:56] <Horologium> run it into the side of a building or the ground.
[20:15:02] <vsync_> Valen: and that might not be enough
[20:15:11] <Valen> urgh fine
[20:15:13] <vsync_> when you really need it, unless you are flying way high
[20:15:44] <vsync_> yet again, a system like that would bring a lot of dead weight into the system anyway
[20:16:18] <vsync_> Horologium: yes true, the halt of the motion is always guaranteed
[20:16:35] <Valen> 200mph > 0 in 1 second is 10G
[20:17:05] <Valen> which wont even injure you in a car accident
[20:17:17] <Horologium> you sure on that math?
[20:17:24] <Valen> http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_calculation/Acceleration_calculator.aspx
[20:17:31] <Valen> its only 90 meters per second
[20:17:32] <coleman-> in a car accident though 10G is extremely short
[20:17:41] <Valen> a car accident is typically 70G
[20:17:53] <vsync_> Valen: even then, you'd have to fly high
[20:18:11] <Valen> no you just need to be on a path that doesn't intersect the ground for one second
[20:18:27] <vsync_> no...
[20:18:31] <Valen> yes
[20:18:33] <vsync_> no
[20:18:37] <coleman-> you were talking about 10G car accident not injurying you. yeah, because the peak of the force is very short
[20:18:51] <Valen> 10G is quite survivable
[20:19:02] <Valen> pilots pull 9G seated
[20:19:07] <Valen> untill they black out
[20:19:12] <vsync_> y
[20:19:18] <Valen> if you dont hit the ground for one second, and you stop in one second, how do you hit the ground ?
[20:19:33] <coleman-> I know there are pilots who can survive even over 14 G, but it could still be fatal to an average guy
[20:19:39] <Valen> the blood is forced from the brain
[20:19:48] <Horologium> that's why they wear G-suits
[20:19:50] <Valen> 14G it depends on how you are orientated
[20:20:09] <Valen> if you are laying down and the acceleration is "flat" then pretty much any healthy person will survive
[20:20:30] <vsync_> well, sure
[20:20:35] <Valen> this is something I know something about,
[20:20:38] <vsync_> but 230 mph is
[20:20:43] <vsync_> what
[20:20:46] <Valen> not that fast really
[20:20:48] <vsync_> 90-100 m/s
[20:20:49] <Valen> 90 meters per second
[20:20:59] <vsync_> now
[20:21:06] <vsync_> when you really need it
[20:21:08] <vsync_> you're already fucked
[20:21:15] <vsync_> so, you have to fly high
[20:21:46] <vsync_> and really, you can say that it's "just 10 G's"
[20:22:14] <vsync_> but you'd have to figure out a way to distribute the force evenly
[20:22:19] <Valen> look at the video, he was flying horisontally
[20:22:28] <vsync_> yes sure sure...
[20:22:41] <Valen> when you press the chute button you don't instantly become travelling straight down
[20:22:47] <vsync_> nope
[20:23:10] <vsync_> but Valen, the problem is still the structure of the plane itself, its fragility
[20:23:41] <Valen> I presume if you are flying at 230mph and pulling high G turns your wings are held on with more than rubber bands?
[20:24:03] <Valen> you are talking about planes that can pull 1G vertically
[20:24:06] <vsync_> I presume, if you'd strap your chute cord to the wing and pull the chute at 230 it rips straigfht off
[20:24:26] <Valen> because you presume that the cord is tied to an anchor
[20:24:45] <vsync_> you'd have to figure out how to distribute the force
[20:25:04] <Valen> do they do that on the life sized craft?
[20:25:23] <vsync_> ...
[20:25:25] <Valen> given life size craft are more susceptible to the problem
[20:25:58] <vsync_> i'm done with this retarded conversation really, let's reopen the issue when you find me evidence of a working parachute recovery system for jets
[20:25:59] <Valen> I build combat robots, they have impacts that will rip chips off boards in the 13KG weight class
[20:26:19] <Valen> a decent cesna will fly at 200mph
[20:26:32] <vsync_> and their feasibility, and such
[20:26:43] <vsync_> i'm off to bed, nn
[20:27:26] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptIh-qm8XU
[20:27:30] <Valen> 45 seconds in
[20:27:41] <Valen> and that is a *hard* deployment
[20:45:18] <ptrkOP> Recomendations for a good, small touchscreen to pair with an atmega328?
[20:46:15] <Valen> pair of pots and a button
[20:46:31] <ptrkOP> ?
[20:46:48] <Valen> (sarcasm)
[20:46:59] <ptrkOP> Right, why sarcasm.
[20:47:15] <Horologium> it's that kind of a night.
[20:47:42] <ptrkOP> ah. Apologies.
[20:47:57] <Valen> because I didn't have a useful suggestion, but I didn't want you to feel alone ;->
[20:48:21] <ptrkOP> haha thank you! Much appreciated :p
[21:55:36] <Valen> anybody have a pointer on what to do with avrdude and a dragon in linux so i don't need to run it with sudo?
[21:56:29] <tech2077> what distro?
[21:57:25] <Valen> ubuntu
[21:57:56] <tzanger> Valen: you set up your udev rules to give out proper permissions when it's plugged in
[21:58:17] <tzanger> http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=60152
[21:58:18] <tech2077> sudo usermod -a -G dialout <username>
[21:58:44] <tzanger> first hit from "avr dragon linux udev" with google auto-adding udev as I was typing the rest
[21:58:45] <tech2077> that's if the dragon appears as tty, else udev rules
[21:59:02] <tzanger> in fact the first four hits from google help
[21:59:17] <Valen> just figued somebody might know off hand was all
[21:59:46] <tzanger> Valen: nine times out of ten the people helping you are typing shit into google to do so
[21:59:57] <Valen> yeah I know
[22:00:10] <Valen> I figure I help enough other people I was entitled to one ;-P
[22:00:19] <tzanger> it makes us a little unhappy when you don't try that yourself first
[22:00:22] <tzanger> oh I know we've all been there
[22:00:35] <tzanger> and I'm one foot in bed so I'm maybe a little grumpier than usual
[22:00:40] <Valen> 's ok
[22:00:47] <Valen> I know I should have done the googles
[22:00:56] <tzanger> it's all about knowing what to ask google too... I don't know how helpful it owuld have been if I didn't know the magic 'udev'
[22:01:05] <Valen> its just half the stuff with AVR moves so fast that its out of date in 20 seconds
[22:01:22] <Valen> I was figuiring I would be adding my user to a group with permission
[22:01:40] <tzanger> that works too, but udev rules are probablyt he better way
[22:01:44] <tzanger> I'm on osx so I don't know anymore
[22:01:56] <Valen> each end of the same stick really
[22:02:14] <Valen> hah, notice that post has been updated so many times
[22:03:54] <Valen> and the last one in there doesn't work in 12.04
[22:07:12] <Valen> you need to combine it with this http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1985915
[22:07:17] <Valen> and replug the device
[22:07:30] * Valen presumes this is logged somewhere
[22:08:26] <Valen> now to work out why this dang button isnt buttoning
[22:12:55] <tzanger> yeah I had that at the start of this week. whyt he goddamned triac was always firing
[22:13:05] <tzanger> I had MT1/MT2 swapped in the end
[22:16:59] <Valen> ok pressing the button makes the volts on the pin do the right thing
[23:17:15] <rue_shop2> hu hu hu hu
[23:17:18] <rue_shop2> uhm
[23:17:30] <rue_shop2> they changed how I have to do my interuupt handler
[23:17:33] <rue_shop2> *help*
[23:17:41] <rue_shop2> SIGNAL(SIG_OVERFLOW2) {
[23:17:41] <rue_shop2> second();
[23:17:41] <rue_shop2> }
[23:17:43] <rue_shop2> is now?
[23:44:26] <rue_shop2> Tom_itx, you have m32 code to use the rtc osc to toggle an led or something
[23:44:36] <rue_shop2> my old code worked fine, the new compiler wont compile it
[23:44:40] <rue_shop2> the new code dosn't work
[23:44:47] <rue_shop2> I know the hardware works