Back
[00:03:57] <ptrkOP> I wanted to get started with AVR development. I just picked a dev board and programmer up on ebay. Do they look ok?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300771847740?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171032545208?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
[00:27:14] <TechIsCool> Anyone want to tell me why I can't get this pwm to work with my xmega?
http://pastebin.com/JGiXcGjx
[00:29:01] <ptrkOP> Does this compile?
[01:06:17] <Qantourisc> TechIsCool: never programed a avr in my life but TC1_CCAEN_bm ?
[01:07:02] <TechIsCool> Qantourisc: Its there
[01:07:33] <Qantourisc> what is the value of TC1_CCAEN_bm ?
[01:07:47] <TechIsCool> TCD1.CTRLB = TC_WGMODE_SS_gc | TC1_CCAEN_bm;
[01:08:19] <Qantourisc> that's the value of TCD1.CTRLB p
[01:16:12] <Qantourisc> PS anyone knows a simple standard bus protocol ? 1-wire seems niceich, but some part are complicated
[01:16:25] <Qantourisc> If all fails i'll design my own :p
[01:16:40] <TechIsCool> Qantourisc: what does p mean
[01:17:06] <w|zzy> :-P
[01:17:21] <Qantourisc> litterly tong out of face, for me silish-not-so-serious
[01:17:36] <Qantourisc> Or i could name the protocol :p :)
[01:17:57] <TechIsCool> nvm I got it
[01:18:15] <Qantourisc> aTiny ... do you have them in DIP ?
[01:18:41] <Qantourisc> a yes ok nvm :)
[01:18:49] <Qantourisc> solders SMD once: hell :)
[02:33:01] <OndraSter> TechIsCool, what was the issue?
[02:33:29] <TechIsCool> Declaring the wrong pins bitmask
[02:33:37] <TechIsCool> but I fixed it after going back over my code
[02:33:43] <OndraSter> ;D
[02:33:52] <OndraSter> happens
[02:34:17] <TechIsCool> normally start at 1 wait we start at 0. Therese the problem
[02:34:39] <OndraSter> afk
[02:41:00] <microchip_sac> hello all, im debugging with avr-gdb
[02:41:09] <microchip_sac> using simavr eith it
[02:41:15] <microchip_sac> *with
[02:41:47] <microchip_sac> and i want to simulate a button press so that some code will be executed
[02:41:53] <microchip_sac> how do i do this?
[02:55:08] <Qantourisc> :wl
[03:02:04] <OndraSter> microchip_sac, write to the PIN register?
[03:02:04] <OndraSter> not sure what will simavr do with it
[03:02:28] <microchip_sac> ok, here goes...
[03:03:06] <microchip_sac> how do you write to a register with avr-gdb?
[03:18:24] <Qantourisc> Does AVR like Serial port communications ? (RS485)à
[04:55:54] <Qantourisc> "128/256 Bytes Internal SRAM" <= can this be right ? 256 bytes to work with ?
[04:56:00] <Qantourisc> Well no C++ containers then :)
[04:56:51] <jacekowski> 256 bytes is plenty
[04:57:02] <jacekowski> attiny processors have no ram at all
[04:57:05] <jacekowski> just few registers
[04:58:49] <Qantourisc> I'm actually more worried about the lack of I/O pins :)
[04:59:04] <Qantourisc> or the docs confused me :)
[05:00:30] <Qantourisc> no analog ports in any case :/
[05:04:06] <OndraSter> yep
[05:04:06] <OndraSter> but on chips with no RAM you cannot do C :)
[05:04:06] <OndraSter> Qantourisc, I dare you to use C++ on non-xmega devices anyway :P
[05:04:07] <OndraSter> (and keep speed and low RAM usage)
[05:04:08] <OndraSter> damn, why are UV LEDs so much more expensive?
[05:04:20] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: no clue
[05:04:33] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: no C ?
[05:04:40] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: so i need to code assembly ?
[05:05:04] <OndraSter> tiny2313 I am guessing?
[05:05:16] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: looking at witch one ill use yes
[05:06:25] <Qantourisc> ATmega has ADC's
[05:10:05] <Qantourisc> 8A/D 23IO's
[05:10:09] <Qantourisc> that's plenty :)
[05:10:18] <Qantourisc> and 1KB ram :p
[05:10:26] <Qantourisc> more expensive ofcours
[05:12:07] <OndraSter> what means no clue?
[05:12:07] <OndraSter> on chips with no RAM you can not use gcc
[05:12:07] <OndraSter> on chips with small RAM you can use C/C++, but with C++ you will run out of memory very quickly
[05:12:08] <OndraSter> *-small
[05:13:04] <Qantourisc> I have no clue/idea why UV leds are more expensive
[05:13:04] <OndraSter> yes
[05:13:05] <OndraSter> attinies have got ADC, except tiny2313 and some others
[05:13:05] <OndraSter> what are your requirements?
[05:13:07] <Qantourisc> maybe the gass ?
[05:13:23] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: generic platform to connect IO to :)
[05:13:28] <Qantourisc> for home automation
[05:13:30] <MrMobius> OndraSter, really? i though that too when people told me about using c++ templates on the msp430 which only has 512 bytes ram but apparently C++ can be just as efficient as C in a lot of cases
[05:13:42] <OndraSter> attiny48 maybe?
[05:13:42] <OndraSter> err
[05:13:42] <OndraSter> atmega48
[05:13:44] <Qantourisc> MrMobius: you are correct
[05:14:00] <OndraSter> I am guessing that there is small market for them
[05:14:02] <Qantourisc> MrMobius: unless something screws up
[05:14:14] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: yes seen the atmega48 look nice
[05:14:29] <Qantourisc> I'll probably be spending more on PCB, connectors etz then on the ship ! :p
[05:14:40] <OndraSter> MrMobius, dunno, I just am used to the fact that C++ requires more RAM
[05:14:40] <OndraSter> also, templates are evil :P
[05:14:42] <Qantourisc> and on a scope and programmers tools
[05:14:55] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: so is copy-paste and macros
[05:15:43] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: well C++ is only as heavy as you use it, you can write C++ code that is no heavier then C code
[05:15:49] <OndraSter> :P
[05:15:50] <OndraSter> you can later upgrade to mega88/168/328
[05:15:56] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: depends on what subset you use
[05:16:05] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: that means removing the wall :)
[05:16:07] <Qantourisc> sorta to speak
[05:17:05] <MrMobius> OndraSter, yeah i was under that assumption too. i was surprised to learn that thats often not the case with micros.
[05:17:15] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: well the most expensive one is 8€ !!! wow :p
[05:17:25] <Qantourisc> the programmer will cost more :)
[05:17:52] <Qantourisc> what is the difference anyway
[05:18:19] <Qantourisc> aa flash and ram
[05:18:32] <Qantourisc> not sure i care :)
[05:19:10] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: in essense all it will do mostly, is readout a light switch, and control a relay
[05:19:17] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: and be on a RS485 bus
[05:19:41] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: the more complex behaviours are a job for a more complex master device anyway
[05:19:55] <Qantourisc> which will probably be a full blow linux anyway
[05:20:03] <Qantourisc> giving commands on the RS485 bus
[05:20:07] <OndraSter> if you want to use C++ you usually have a good reason for it
[05:20:19] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: DRY
[05:20:47] <Qantourisc> but that's hard anyway with ?2? types (char and int ?)
[05:21:04] <OndraSter> wow, serious IRC lag!
[05:21:23] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: i mainly care about the C++ syntax, not so mutch the bloat you can use
[05:21:41] <Qantourisc> You can still code C in C++ :)
[05:29:04] <OndraSter> yes
[05:31:35] <Qantourisc> hmmm starting to think for the other application avr will not be enough
[05:31:39] <Qantourisc> I might need ethernet ...
[05:36:50] <Qantourisc> avr-uip ?
[05:56:14] <Qantourisc> Maybe I ought to use a beagleboard for more complex stuff that hooks to ethernet :p
[06:01:24] <OndraSter> atxmega128a4u :)
[06:01:24] <OndraSter> or any other xmega
[06:01:24] <OndraSter> with bigger RAM & flash
[06:02:08] <OndraSter> xmega384c3 -- 384kB flash, 32kB RAM. No idea about price though
[06:02:08] <OndraSter> xmega256a3u -- 256/16kB
[06:03:25] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: i'm just mighty worried about the ethernet
[06:03:33] <Qantourisc> OndraSter: can't have it half-ass
[06:03:51] <Qantourisc> Note: This is for something else then the "Just IO on a bus" project
[06:04:12] <Qantourisc> i'm really tempted towards a fullblown linux for the ethernet thingies
[06:04:37] <Qantourisc> working with ethernet on a low-level might just not be worth it
[06:06:10] <OndraSter> that is why you get iwip or uip stack :)
[06:08:46] <Qantourisc> witch isn't performant, due to ACK issues
[06:08:49] <Horologium_> http://tuxgraphics.org/electronics/ they have a nifty little tcp/ip stack for avr on there.
[06:09:20] <Qantourisc> imo not worth the hassle, unless talking volume :)
[06:10:28] <Horologium_> all depends on what you want to do with it.
[06:11:51] <Qantourisc> readout a RS485 bus
[10:13:24] <kdehl_> Evening.
[10:15:54] <kdehl> Hrm.
[10:16:56] <kdehl> Most HD44780 code examples I've seen use delays when writing characters or commands to the display, instead of checking for the busy flag.
[10:17:00] <kdehl> Isn't that really ugly?
[10:18:25] <tzanger> kdehl: it makes for simpler code becuase you don't ahve to read
[10:19:05] <tzanger> kdehl: it can also make for simpler hardware because you can stick the display on the end of a shift register or other unidirectional port
[10:20:09] <kdehl> Right, you never have to change the RW pin?
[10:20:21] <kdehl> Well, I'll stick with that then. :)
[10:20:43] <kdehl> I should connect that to ground, if I understand it correctly.
[10:22:13] <tzanger> always connect pins to ground through a resistor
[10:22:20] <tzanger> you can make it zero ohms, but use a resistor
[10:22:27] <tzanger> *especially* on any kind of prototype
[10:23:00] <kdehl> Zero ohms? How does that affect anything?
[10:24:23] <tzanger> it doesn't
[10:24:39] <tzanger> it allows you ot change your mind or use the pin for something else that you did not expect/miswired
[10:24:49] <tzanger> just trust me. there's always room for an 0805 resistor. :-)
[10:25:23] <tzanger> 0805 is also small enough that you can blob it with solder to make the connection if the resistance is unimportant
[10:25:43] <kdehl> Ah. Yeah, that's good idea.
[10:32:37] <twnqx> uh, 0805 blobbable? :S
[10:32:43] <RikusW> I used custom pads with 0.2mm spacing for solder jumpers
[10:32:47] <twnqx> me too
[10:33:02] <RikusW> might make it even closer next time
[10:33:05] <RikusW> 0.15
[10:33:15] <RikusW> 6mil
[10:33:19] <twnqx> that's seeed limit:P
[10:34:15] <RikusW> about 0805 size, only 0.2mm, fairly easy to short/open
[10:34:40] <twnqx> hm
[10:35:14] <twnqx> i have 0.5mm between 0603
[10:35:49] <RikusW> on second thought maybe 0.2 is small enough...
[10:35:57] <RikusW> just had a look at the pcb
[10:36:16] <RikusW> won't hurt to try .15 sometime either..
[11:21:06] <megal0maniac> Have a look.
http://hackaday.com/2012/09/11/bed-of-nails-and-accuracy-in-pcb-manufacturing/
[11:21:26] <megal0maniac> Might make you think twice about pcbs from itead :P
[11:25:10] <RikusW> heh
[11:25:30] <Qantourisc> DIP40 ... is a tad ... large
[11:26:13] <RikusW> use qfn then
[11:26:14] <Qantourisc> Think it's worth the extra pins ?
[11:26:24] <Qantourisc> RikusW: hard to use on breadboard
[11:26:28] <RikusW> heh
[11:26:41] <RikusW> more pins is always better ;)
[11:26:57] <RikusW> or use m168
[11:27:00] <RikusW> 28 pins
[11:27:11] <Qantourisc> QFN to PInned socket ?
[11:27:27] <megal0maniac_afk> Then you may as wel get the DIP package
[11:27:33] <RikusW> m168 is available as 28 pin dip
[11:27:51] <RikusW> megal0maniac_afk: finally using Mint x64 :)
[11:28:02] <megal0maniac_afk> It's nice :)
[11:28:06] <RikusW> yep
[11:28:22] <RikusW> will have to boot to win7 for dev stuff soon
[11:28:30] <Qantourisc> I mainly fear removing it from the dip board
[11:28:36] <Qantourisc> so many pins, its hard to remove :p
[11:28:37] <RikusW> thats until I get XP setup in a virtualbox
[11:28:53] <RikusW> Qantourisc: use a flat screwdriver
[11:29:10] <RikusW> and pry a little at alternating each end
[11:29:16] <Qantourisc> hmm good idea
[11:29:30] <WhaleBoobs> im amazed this channel is so active and popular
[11:30:24] <Qantourisc> Compiler: check, C: check: µC: Check
[11:30:29] <Qantourisc> WhaleBoobs: what more you need :)
[11:30:42] <Qantourisc> ow and cheap, and lots of IO:)
[11:31:17] <megal0maniac_afk> Qantourisc: I'd recommend xboard, but there aren't any :P
[11:31:43] <megal0maniac_afk> http://i.imgur.com/YyBbcJNl.jpg
[11:31:44] <RikusW> not yet
[11:32:02] <Qantourisc> xboard is nice to test
[11:32:04] <megal0maniac_afk> Lots of IO. And cheap. But RikusW and I have the only two ever to be sold :P
[11:32:05] <Qantourisc> but I need 2 to test :)
[11:32:10] <Qantourisc> and i need A/D
[11:32:21] <megal0maniac_afk> It has A/D
[11:32:22] <megal0maniac_afk> And D/A
[11:32:24] <megal0maniac_afk> And DMA
[11:32:34] <Qantourisc> i'm confused on mega vs tiny
[11:32:48] <Qantourisc> ooo they have a selector tool
[11:32:51] <megal0maniac_afk> And SPI and I2C and UART and other stuff I forget
[11:33:08] <Qantourisc> PS ARM vs AVR ?
[11:33:09] <megal0maniac_afk> Okaybye :)
[11:33:14] * megal0maniac_afk really is afk
[11:33:26] <RikusW> Abye
[11:34:46] <Qantourisc> avr is more µC ?
[11:36:37] <RikusW> yes
[11:36:45] <RikusW> but AVR32 is more like ARM
[11:37:06] <Qantourisc> Why would I pick A vs B :)
[11:37:11] <Qantourisc> orm arm vs avr
[11:39:24] <RikusW> http://www.edn.com/design/power-management/4412960/1/Teardown--Samsung-Galaxy-S4-
[11:39:31] <RikusW> AVR8 is simple to work with
[11:39:43] <RikusW> xmega a bit more complex than mega
[11:39:48] <Qantourisc> yees and comes in DIP packages ?
[11:40:01] <RikusW> xmega comes only in 0.5mm pitch tqfp
[11:40:28] <RikusW> I've soldered 0.635 by now, maybe 0.5 won't be too difficult ;)
[11:40:35] <RikusW> (GTL2000DL)
[11:40:45] <Qantourisc> i have solded small too, it possible but crap :)
[11:41:01] <kobsu> check out also aery32 board
[11:42:36] <RikusW> .635 was rather easy actually
[11:42:46] <RikusW> positioning the chip takes a bit of time...
[11:43:07] <RikusW> I'm using a Plato EW-103 (or EW-105) tip for TQFP
[11:43:30] <RikusW> very fast, solders multiple pins at once
[11:54:27] <Qantourisc> kobsu: yes al nice :)
[11:54:48] <Tom_itx> megal0maniac_afk why would we use itead when we got hackvana?
[11:55:19] <Tom_itx> </plug>
[11:56:28] <twnqx> RikusW: 0.5 is no different from 0.635
[11:56:50] <twnqx> and i use a 1.6mm flat tip for everything :S
[11:57:28] <Tom_itx> just wipe the pins with solder
[11:57:33] <Tom_itx> it's pretty easy
[11:57:36] <twnqx> 0.4 was surprisingly painful, though
[12:00:17] <RikusW> seems it does help to extend the pads at least 0.5mm away from the IC pins
[12:00:26] <RikusW> helps to prevent bridging
[12:00:36] <Qantourisc> 274 AVR ic to chooice from !?!
[12:00:47] <RikusW> yes there are many
[12:01:36] <Qantourisc> tiny vs mega ?
[12:01:52] <RikusW> less vs more pins
[12:02:03] <RikusW> less flash
[12:02:22] <RikusW> though there is m44 and t1634....
[12:02:35] <Qantourisc> and a neglectiable price differnce unless ordering a ton ?
[12:07:24] <RikusW> yep
[12:07:28] <RikusW> I'd go for mega
[12:07:57] <Qantourisc> then the only question: how big a dip :)
[12:08:14] <RikusW> m324 ?
[12:08:16] <Qantourisc> ow the A/D pins can also do 1/0 right ?
[12:08:25] <RikusW> there is 164 324 644 1284
[12:08:31] <RikusW> yes
[12:09:30] <Qantourisc> the max they sell in this online shop is 162 or 8535 ?
[12:09:49] <RikusW> those are old version AVRs
[12:10:21] <Qantourisc> are the new worth it if you can't find them straight away ?
[12:10:58] <RikusW> 162 will work ok
[12:11:02] <RikusW> goot 2 uarts
[12:11:18] <RikusW> and jtagice mki can debug it
[12:11:18] <Qantourisc> TQFP 44 <= that's why it didn't list
[12:11:21] <Qantourisc> i filtered on DIP :)
[12:12:49] <Qantourisc> 32 vs 8 :)
[12:17:08] <hackvana> Tom_itx: Itead are slightly cheaper than I am.
[12:17:34] <hackvana> But they don't do 100% e-test, as this shows:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3468
[12:18:46] <twnqx> seeed does
[12:18:50] <twnqx> according to their marking :X
[12:19:08] <RikusW> hackvana: or this
http://hackaday.com/2012/09/11/bed-of-nails-and-accuracy-in-pcb-manufacturing/
[12:20:16] <twnqx> though i can't see any markings on my last batch of PCBs, maybe they e-test before ENIG plating
[12:24:06] <twnqx> the more annoying thing about itead&seeed id the pcb number printing
[12:24:37] <hackvana> I regularly check boards I get back from the fabs to make sure they're doing 100% testing.
[12:24:37] <hackvana> You'll need a high power magnifying glass
[12:24:53] <twnqx> on my HASL finishes it's quite easily visible
[12:25:07] <twnqx> just not on ENIG
[12:25:09] <hackvana> It's fairly easy to see the testing marks on SMD designs. For example:
http://i.imgur.com/8IK6o.png
[12:25:38] <hackvana> (I keep that pic around to show customers what's going to happen if they try to put soldermask between the pins of their 0.4mm pitch chip)
[12:25:55] <twnqx> yeah
[12:26:05] <twnqx> my PCBs with soldermask in 0.4mm are made in germany
[12:26:11] <RikusW> seems the galaxy S4 contains a Atmel’s UC128L5-U :)
[12:26:14] <twnqx> i wouldn't trust the cheap vendors to do that
[12:26:19] <hackvana> On through-hole designs, the testing pins often go into the barrel of the hole, so you have to very very carefully look at the sidewall of the barrel of the hole
[12:27:03] <twnqx> there are enough vendors that can do 2-3mil PCBs
[12:27:15] <twnqx> it just gets... expensive
[12:27:24] <hackvana> Yes I was going to say.
[12:27:52] <hackvana> There are suppliers here who can do that, but in small quantities it would be out of reach of hobbyists.
[12:28:22] <hackvana> So I don't offer it.
[12:28:54] * twnqx checks
[12:28:55] <hackvana> Some of my current customers are doing Allwinner A13 designs at 6mil.
[12:29:03] <twnqx> 200€, 25pcs 100x35mm
[12:29:21] <twnqx> 200€ plus taxes.
[12:29:43] <hackvana> Now I know why I have two children.
[12:29:50] <hackvana> It's so I can sell the first
[12:29:58] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/DSC_0001.JPG
[12:30:07] <Tom_itx> those two traces were fused together
[12:30:11] <twnqx> lol hackvana, that's mean
[12:30:35] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/DSC_0002.JPG
[12:30:49] <Tom_itx> you couldn't see it with the naked eye
[12:31:41] <Tom_itx> the jumper was because one of them 'blew a fuse'
[12:31:42] <twnqx> hackvana: do you live in china, or would ordering from you mean twice around the world?
[12:32:12] <hackvana> I'm Australian, but I live in Shenzhen China, home of the world's largest electronics market.
[12:32:17] <Tom_itx> twnqx, he commutes
[12:32:21] <hackvana> Yeah
[12:32:22] <Tom_itx> from Au to Ch
[12:32:28] <twnqx> ah
[12:32:33] <hackvana> Gotta see my family some time
[12:32:43] <hackvana> Go back for my wife's sweet sweet cooking
[12:33:38] <twnqx> hackvana: you don't happen to know waveshare, then?
[12:33:44] <hackvana> Who?
[12:34:05] <twnqx> http://wvshare.com/help/contact.htm
[12:34:07] <hackvana> twnqx: Say, where do you live?
[12:34:11] <twnqx> germany
[12:34:38] <twnqx> so i'm used to two-three weeks shipping times
[12:34:53] <hackvana> This is a biiiiiig place. 40% of the world's electronics manufacturing happens with 30km of here.
[12:35:18] <hackvana> twnqx: One of my UK regular customers keeps track of shipping time of the free shipping from me to him.
[12:35:24] <hackvana> He says the average is 9 days.
[12:35:37] <hackvana> Average.
[12:35:56] <twnqx> they seem the ONLY supplier in the world for low numbers of enplas/yamaichi test sockets :X
[12:36:24] <hackvana> Anything one could want can be found in the markets here.
[12:36:46] * twnqx notes: another place not to go to for fear of the bacnk acoount
[12:36:59] <twnqx> fear for the bank account*
[12:37:23] <hackvana> You can't buy switches here.
[12:37:33] <hackvana> You have to buy them by the bag-of-1000
[12:37:44] <hackvana> They'll give you switches though, as samples.
[12:38:28] <twnqx> depending on the switch i wouldn't mind 1000 at the right price
[12:38:33] <hackvana> Electronics in the West is tied to a scarcity mindset: It's precious, gotta be careful with that stuff.
[12:39:06] <hackvana> Electronics here is tied to an abundance mindset. It's so cheap, relatively, that the biggest cost is in hesitating whether to buy or not
[12:39:26] <hackvana> So you don't hesitate, you don't obsess about getting it wrong.
[12:39:40] <twnqx> if you produce in the thousands or tens of thousands it doesn't matter
[12:39:46] <twnqx> if i want to build ONE device
[12:39:52] <hackvana> You buy it, you make it, it works or fails, don't care, you've learnt from it. Iterate, or do something else.
[12:39:54] <jacekowski> hackvana: electronics is cheap in the west as well
[12:40:12] <twnqx> then buying 999 useless pieces for a few euros each is wrong
[12:40:34] <kuldeepdhaka> hello, can any one tell me what is time does it take read from flash and dram or their ratio flash/dram (assume atmega 32 @ 16MHZ)
[12:40:37] <hackvana> wrong sounds awfully moral, therefore I don't understand the concept. tell me more
[12:40:49] <twnqx> wrong isn't moral
[12:41:09] <twnqx> if i buy ICs for, say, 2€ at 1000 pieces
[12:41:11] <twnqx> privately
[12:41:15] <twnqx> and use... one
[12:41:23] <twnqx> i just wasted 1998 euros
[12:41:33] <RikusW> kuldeepdhaka: its listed in the instruction set reference, iirc 2 clocks for ram
[12:41:53] <RikusW> kuldeepdhaka: LD and LPM instructions
[12:42:06] <hackvana> Let's think rationally, in economics terms. Who would buy 1000 chips to use one? You'd only do that if the price of 1000 was less than the price of 1.
[12:42:14] <twnqx> exactly
[12:42:15] <hackvana> Or nobody would supply you one.
[12:42:27] <twnqx> but that's what us hobbyists do
[12:42:29] <hackvana> So your scenario doesn't make sense, because no-one's ever going to do it
[12:42:31] <kuldeepdhaka> RikusW, thnx
[12:42:38] <twnqx> hackvana: hobbyists do, all the time
[12:42:40] <hackvana> You buy 1000 to intentionally not use 999?
[12:42:43] <twnqx> no
[12:42:47] <RikusW> kuldeepdhaka: LPM is a few more clocks iirc
[12:42:50] <hackvana> But it's what you said
[12:42:55] <twnqx> but you said the buying exact is a scarcity mindset
[12:43:06] <twnqx> while it is not, it is buying to your use
[12:43:25] <twnqx> i am buying 100nF 0402 capacitors in reels
[12:43:37] <twnqx> so i have 10k of them, i'll use them up over the rest of my life
[12:43:51] <twnqx> or mybe not, but at that price it's irrelevant
[12:43:55] <hackvana> Do you obsess about how many grains of salt you bought?
[12:44:02] <hackvana> Of course not, you just use them.
[12:44:16] <twnqx> yeah, but the chips i used last
[12:44:19] <twnqx> cost 10€ each
[12:44:20] <hackvana> Do you obsess about all the salt that's sitting in the salt shaker, as yet unshaken? Of course not
[12:44:31] <twnqx> and i know i will never build more than 2, maybe 3
[12:44:38] <twnqx> with that chip
[12:44:51] <twnqx> some parts compare to your salt
[12:44:55] <twnqx> others don't
[12:44:57] <hackvana> Are we talking 10€ each chips, or 100nF 0402? Two very different matters
[12:45:04] <twnqx> exacly
[12:45:09] <twnqx> 100nF 0402 is like salt
[12:45:14] <hackvana> Yes
[12:45:20] <twnqx> SJA1000 aren't
[12:45:45] <hackvana> 100nF 0402 is commodity, SJA1000 is precious
[12:46:18] <twnqx> 47µF 10V X5R in 1210 is in the middle :X
[12:46:22] <hackvana> You could overbuy 100n 100x what you need and still sleep at night
[12:46:29] <twnqx> i did
[12:46:37] <twnqx> last time i bought 1000 and needed 20 or so
[12:46:52] <hackvana> Curiously enough, OndraSter_ asked me for caps just like that and I had a lot of trouble getting them.
[12:47:10] <twnqx> which ones? 47µF?
[12:47:21] <twnqx> i paid 1€ each :X
[12:47:26] <hackvana> Around that size in around that footprint. Can't remember exactly. He'll know.
[12:48:08] <hackvana> Ahh, another one of my customers: TechIsCool, hi!
[12:48:17] <TechIsCool> hackvana: Hey
[12:48:38] <hackvana> TechIsCool is working on a cool thing for his kitchen :-)
[12:49:01] <TechIsCool> Yup and I finally got my first board working thanks to OndraSter_
[12:49:10] <hackvana> Excellent!
[12:49:15] <OndraSter_> you did, TechIsCool ? :o
[12:49:24] <OndraSter_> the AP5100 or xmega?
[12:49:32] <hackvana> OndraSter_: What were the specs on those caps you asked me about last year?
[12:49:46] <OndraSter_> hackvana, ugh... that was last year ... Not sure I remember :). Let me check email
[12:49:52] <TechIsCool> OndraSter_: The xmega one. With the led in the center that the dragon refused to program.
[12:49:54] <hackvana> :-)
[12:50:10] <OndraSter_> 10uF/25V
[12:50:22] <OndraSter_> 0805
[12:50:25] <hackvana> 0805 or something?
[12:50:33] <hackvana> That's right
[12:50:47] <OndraSter_> your price: USD58.55 for a reel (2k parts)
[12:50:50] <hackvana> Seems so long ago
[12:50:59] <OndraSter_> yeah, october 2012
[12:51:07] <hackvana> Anyway, 1:30 here, bedtime
[12:51:24] <OndraSter_> gn
[12:52:16] * twnqx stares at expensive 10µF 50V X5R 12010
[12:52:23] <twnqx> 1210*
[12:53:28] <hackvana> Just counted, 8 of my customers in this channel, with two more who aren't yet but will be :-)
[12:54:02] <RikusW> counting customers now instead of sheep ? :-P
[12:54:10] <twnqx> heh
[12:54:12] <hackvana> I'm getting sleepy
[12:54:19] <hackvana> Good night
[12:54:21] <RikusW> seems like it worked ;)
[12:54:23] <RikusW> good night
[12:54:34] <hackvana> RikusW is also a customer :-)
[12:54:42] <hackvana> OndraSter_ is not. Yet.
[12:55:01] <TechIsCool> lol
[12:55:06] <TechIsCool> goodnight hackvana
[12:55:10] <hackvana> Night
[12:55:51] <twnqx> and here i thought my interpreter was broken... but no, the compiler who produced this really was that stupid :X
[12:56:12] * twnqx sighs
[12:56:23] <twnqx> and implements the next opcode
[13:05:06] * RikusW wonders how to import a schematic into the pcb in Kicad
[13:05:14] <RikusW> was easy in Altium
[13:08:34] <Qantourisc> ATMEGA8-16PU <= ok ?
[13:08:52] <Qantourisc> Or should i just get a 40dip
[13:11:36] <Qantourisc> if you want ram it's either 28dip or 40dip
[13:11:52] <Qantourisc> think i'd best get 40dip, then downscale when apriopriate for the app
[13:14:18] <OndraSter__> DIP..
[13:14:24] <OndraSter__> why DIP?
[13:16:46] <Qantourisc> OndraSter__: removable ?
[13:17:17] <OndraSter__> why removable?
[13:17:26] <OndraSter__> I thoguht you wanted to do home something
[13:17:28] <OndraSter__> home system
[13:17:47] <Qantourisc> OndraSter__: yes
[13:17:54] <Qantourisc> OndraSter__: but for now they need to be removable :)
[13:18:04] <Qantourisc> cause i will most defently screw up :)
[13:18:23] <Qantourisc> also easier to repogram ?
[13:18:31] <Qantourisc> unless you make compatbile connectors :)
[13:18:55] <OndraSter__> easier to reprogramm? Just as hard as on your own boards ;)
[13:19:35] <Qantourisc> OndraSter__: on second though, no dip is even important
[13:19:46] <Qantourisc> why: upgrading or swapping program without losing light :)
[13:21:00] <Qantourisc> OndraSter__: also it's not always easy to get a laptop close :)
[13:21:25] <twnqx> then implement powerline ethernet and a bootloader for it.
[13:21:59] <Qantourisc> oO
[13:22:21] <Qantourisc> witch will make it more complex and more time expensive
[13:22:39] <twnqx> of course
[13:22:45] <twnqx> but iamgine all the things you'll learn!
[13:23:55] <Qantourisc> twnqx: :p
[13:24:01] <Qantourisc> twnqx: not the main goal atm
[13:24:12] <Qantourisc> twnqx: also DIP... because i'll be testing on breadboard
[13:25:42] * twnqx stares at code that interestingly, and surprisingly, seems to work on first glance
[13:26:41] <Qantourisc> twnqx: always fun :)
[13:26:54] <Qantourisc> say howmany mA to these pupies drive ?
[13:27:04] <twnqx> 20 i think
[13:27:48] <Qantourisc> then again mosfets don't need power :)
[13:28:02] <Qantourisc> but they might need volt :/
[13:28:18] <twnqx> nah
[13:28:27] <twnqx> just get logic level mosfets
[13:32:38] <Qantourisc> twnqx: and then a relay and a diode
[13:32:52] <twnqx> boooring
[13:33:16] <twnqx> maybe an S202S02
[13:33:35] <Qantourisc> Need to drive 220 :-)
[13:33:52] <twnqx> yes.
[13:33:59] <twnqx> > S202S02
[13:34:25] <twnqx> http://wiki.bildr.org/index.php/Solid_state_relay_-_S202S02
[13:34:59] <Qantourisc> 50mA in
[13:35:14] <Qantourisc> And it does 8A :p
[13:35:30] <Qantourisc> ow wait ?
[13:35:38] <twnqx> it might be oversized for your use, yes :P
[13:36:16] <tzanger> heh
[13:36:27] <tzanger> why not just use a logic level mosfet?
[13:36:41] <twnqx> he wants to switch 230VAC
[13:36:48] <tzanger> oh
[13:36:56] <tzanger> moc3010 and a triac
[13:37:06] <tzanger> good enough or ?
[13:37:19] <jadew> what's the benefits a solid state relay has over a regular relay?
[13:37:33] <Qantourisc> no noise :à
[13:38:15] <jadew> like bouncing noise?
[13:38:41] <Qantourisc> jadew: like in the actual noise your ears here when a relay goes clack :)
[13:38:54] <jadew> ah
[13:39:06] <jadew> I like to hear that, it's a sign it's working
[13:39:26] <wakko> hello
[13:39:30] <Qantourisc> well i'm not sure i want to hear it or nor :p
[13:40:01] <wakko> i am still playing with my 1284p xplained kit, but i cannot figure out what is the clock speed of the uc
[13:40:07] <twnqx> tzanger: this is an optocoupler and a triac
[13:40:09] <twnqx> in one device
[13:40:46] <Qantourisc> twnqx: but you still need a seperate triac ?
[13:40:53] <twnqx> no
[13:40:55] <Qantourisc> also i will not send 220V over a DIP :)
[13:41:02] <twnqx> mh?
[13:41:05] <twnqx> you drive it with 1.4V
[13:41:18] <twnqx> and it's not quite DIP...
[13:42:03] <jigoe> If I want to store the first 8 lsb into a uint8_t from a uint32_t, it will just be uint32_tvariable=uint8_tvariable right?
[13:42:22] <jigoe> It takes the lsb bits first right?
[13:42:22] <jadew> the other way around
[13:42:26] <jigoe> Yes
[13:42:29] <jigoe> Sory other way around
[13:42:32] <jadew> yes
[13:42:35] <jigoe> OK, cool.
[13:42:45] <Qantourisc> twnqx: that's 230V-1A
[13:42:47] <jigoe> Thanks
[13:42:47] <Qantourisc> right ?
[13:42:50] <jadew> np
[13:43:03] <twnqx> 230V-8A :P
[13:43:14] <twnqx> in fact
[13:43:17] <twnqx> 600V - 8A
[13:43:29] <Qantourisc> oO
[13:43:34] <Qantourisc> looks at the specs again
[13:43:35] <twnqx> i said it's a bit oversized...
[13:43:54] <Qantourisc> twnqx: o wait, it's not the MOC3010 :p
[13:43:58] <twnqx> it will survice short 80A peaks, though
[13:44:05] <twnqx> survive*
[13:44:16] <Qantourisc> not planning on 80A
[13:44:19] <Qantourisc> fuse will go first :p
[13:44:40] <twnqx> and it gives you opto insulation, just like a normal relay would
[13:44:47] <twnqx> which in my books is a plus at mains
[13:45:04] <Qantourisc> indeed
[13:45:36] <Qantourisc> and they don't sell it :(
[13:46:11] <twnqx> awww
[13:46:15] <twnqx> who is "them"
[13:46:27] <Qantourisc> a online shop in be
[13:46:39] <Qantourisc> gound his brother S 216 S02
[13:46:40] <twnqx> just check for "solid state relais"
[13:46:43] <jadew> try tme.eu
[13:46:50] <twnqx> heh
[13:46:53] <twnqx> 0.6A
[13:46:55] <twnqx> and DIP :D
[13:47:09] <twnqx> oh, that's S26M D02
[13:47:16] <Qantourisc> no the one i'm looking at :)
[13:47:31] <Qantourisc> saay ...
[13:47:37] <twnqx> 250V / 16A lol
[13:47:45] <twnqx> three of them can switch your home :P
[13:47:45] <Qantourisc> how do you SAFELY hookup 0.5m² copper to that ?!?
[13:48:04] <Qantourisc> I mean the pins don't look that wide ...
[13:48:19] <twnqx> solder directly and wrap with heat shrink :P
[13:48:34] <Qantourisc> sounds unsafish to me :p
[13:48:48] <twnqx> nah
[13:49:02] <twnqx> just make sure the isolation is good enough
[13:49:11] <twnqx> and you might want to cool that device is you load it...
[13:49:21] <Qantourisc> 0.8mm wide ?!?
[13:50:01] <Qantourisc> in this contries one still needs to pass a certain electrical control :p
[13:50:25] <Qantourisc> 0.6mmx0.8mm wide iron to passtrough 16A
[13:50:31] <Qantourisc> that sound like a lot
[13:50:50] <Qantourisc> I'd need to cool it just for the soddy connection alone ?
[13:52:05] <twnqx> it has some on resistance, it's a semiconductor after all
[13:52:32] <Qantourisc> twnqx: that I can "live" with ... it's the fact that the input leads are 0.6mmx0.8mm that has me worried
[13:52:38] <jadew> I think he's more worried about the pins
[13:52:47] <jadew> Qantourisc, I think it's enough
[13:52:56] <twnqx> you know
[13:53:00] <Qantourisc> regulations here don't think it's enoough
[13:53:09] <twnqx> if the manufacturer says "that part can take it"
[13:53:16] <twnqx> it can take it
[13:53:23] <Qantourisc> that is true
[13:53:42] <Qantourisc> but still ... pff
[13:54:07] <jadew> http://dumb.ro/pics/?folder=termostat I made this for a friend
[13:54:09] <Qantourisc> let me show you an image of a wire
[13:54:29] <jadew> the relay had similar leads, it's meant to take 10A @ 240
[13:54:34] <jadew> it works fine
[13:54:39] <twnqx> exactly
[13:54:45] <twnqx> try to find a relay with thicker pins
[13:54:49] <twnqx> good luck.
[13:55:19] <Qantourisc> twnqx: i can ... but it'd be DIN-relay mounted :)
[13:55:46] <twnqx> you can find these mounts for solid state, too
[13:56:21] <Qantourisc> regulations say: 16A -> 1.5m²
[13:56:43] <twnqx> http://www.reichelt.de/Solid-State-Relais/RM1A23A25/3/index.html?;ACTION=3;LA=2;ARTICLE=79462;GROUPID=3298;artnr=RM1A23A25
[13:56:48] <twnqx> regulations are for cables
[13:56:50] <twnqx> not for components
[13:56:58] <twnqx> use ^ if you are scared.
[13:57:19] <Qantourisc> part scared, part getting trough inspections !
[13:57:43] <twnqx> really
[13:57:58] <twnqx> your copper wiring
[13:58:07] <twnqx> is a different story from components
[13:58:18] <twnqx> the correct way for your problem would be a custom PCB
[13:58:23] <twnqx> with that part
[13:58:32] <twnqx> and some neat connectors for the wire
[13:58:40] <Qantourisc> "kdu" :)
[13:59:27] <twnqx> 1.5mm² single strand, i suppose
[13:59:35] <twnqx> for fixes installation?
[13:59:37] <twnqx> fixed*
[13:59:56] <Qantourisc> twnqx: yes
[14:00:38] <twnqx> then you add something alike a riacon AKL101 connector to the pcb
[14:01:17] <Qantourisc> yep
[14:01:35] <twnqx> 0.9mm pins, 13A
[14:01:49] <Qantourisc> 13A!=16A
[14:01:50] * twnqx shrugs
[14:02:04] <Qantourisc> the fuses go at 16A ...
[14:02:09] <Qantourisc> not at 13A
[14:02:14] <twnqx> 1mm @ 16A, AKL 073
[14:02:40] <Qantourisc> better :)
[14:02:47] <Qantourisc> but how do you get the "pcb" safe ?
[14:03:06] <jadew> what do you mean by safe?
[14:03:17] <Qantourisc> how do i get enough copper on the PCB :)
[14:03:26] <twnqx> a) you use a calculator that tells you the minimum trace width
[14:03:28] <jadew> http://dumb.ro/pictures/termostat/WP_20130126_015.jpg
[14:03:36] <twnqx> thousand of them online
[14:03:39] <jadew> that's how I did it
[14:03:39] <Qantourisc> "with" :)
[14:03:42] <twnqx> b) you add some margin
[14:03:42] <Qantourisc> haha :)
[14:04:00] <Qantourisc> maybe with a tick layer of solder :)
[14:04:11] <Qantourisc> near the pin there is not a lot of copper :p
[14:04:25] <twnqx> that's option, and reduces the width that's needed
[14:04:34] <jadew> where?
[14:04:35] <twnqx> anyway
[14:04:42] <twnqx> soccer time.
[14:04:43] <twnqx> #bbl
[14:04:49] <jadew> enjoy
[14:05:25] <Qantourisc> AQA411VL <= looks better
[14:05:29] <Qantourisc> and no need for custom pcb :p
[14:06:07] <Qantourisc> and you can just wall mount it :p
[14:07:56] <Qantourisc> rats needs heat-sink
[14:08:18] <Qantourisc> which you can mount on wall again :p
[14:14:49] <Qantourisc> best still seems to be dual step
[14:21:38] <cyanide> so.. is there a channel for arm or freescale arm mcus specifically?
[14:21:58] <Qantourisc> #arm if you are lucky
[14:22:12] <Qantourisc> or you can try ##microcontrollers in gernal ?
[14:23:07] <cyanide> i want some info about flashing them, if anyone here has any idea
[14:23:14] <cyanide> kinetis k20 mcus
[14:23:49] <cyanide> i know it might be rude to ask here
[14:24:28] <Qantourisc> I don't even own a AVR yet :)
[14:24:28] <RikusW> we even talk about ARM here so I doubt that
[14:24:45] <RikusW> never hear of those though
[14:25:02] <cyanide> teensy 3 has those
[14:25:56] <cyanide> i just want to ask what would be a reliable flasher to flash that specific mcu via jtag, and what software should be used
[14:26:42] <cyanide> the hex will be built by the teensyduino compiler, no fancy ides or anything
[14:27:09] <RikusW> isn't there a bootloader on it ?
[14:27:49] <cyanide> on the teensy?
[14:28:34] <cyanide> the bootloader is on another chip on the teensy. don't want to run a second chip
[14:28:50] <antto> teensyduino O_o
[14:29:05] <cyanide> ?
[14:29:05] <antto> how much weirder can the names of these things get? ;]
[14:30:16] <cyanide> lol
[14:39:02] <OndraSter__> cyanide, those kinetis, are they ARM?
[14:39:09] <cyanide> yes
[14:39:22] <OndraSter__> then you *should* be fine with generic FT2232-based stuff + openocd...
[14:39:24] <OndraSter__> *should* :D
[14:49:35] <azmodie> hi all
[14:54:05] <cyanide> went with this
http://www.flashgenie.net/USBDM-Kinetis.html
[15:13:25] <megal0maniac> Tom_itx: Well we wouldn't, based on those pictures :P
[15:22:00] <OndraSter__> how the hell did I get on youtube from chase & status to Alex Gaudino?!
[15:23:12] <megal0maniac> OndraSter__: Six degrees of seperation :)
[15:24:21] <OndraSter__> six degrees?
[15:24:47] <megal0maniac> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation
[15:25:13] <OndraSter__> oh
[15:25:24] <OndraSter__> http://img3.joyreactor.com/pics/post/gif-domino-mindfuck-illusion-527483.gif
[15:26:20] <megal0maniac> The hell?
[15:26:53] <OndraSter__> mindfuck :)
[15:27:38] <megal0maniac> No, too much change just before his hand enters the frame
[15:27:50] <OndraSter__> ;)
[15:27:52] <OndraSter__> yeah
[15:28:23] <megal0maniac> Camera is mounted, easy to take a picture of what the camera sees, and line it up perfectly
[15:36:04] <TechIsCool> alright so I have one of these hooked up and I thought it was going to output 5v when I placed a magnet near it. But It does not what am I doing wrong
http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/TLE4906DataSheet_20V1_1.pdf?folderId=db3a304412b407950112b408e8c90004&fileId=db3a304412b407950112b4091cd800e5
[15:45:51] <r00t|home> TechIsCool: hall effect sensors usually have open collector outputs
[15:46:31] <r00t|home> datasheet page 7, open collector output
[15:46:52] <TechIsCool> r00t|home: Alright thank you did not know what it was called
[15:47:17] <r00t|home> so you need a pullup resistor, and it will pull the output down when it detects a field
[15:48:28] <r00t|home> "digital" does not mean "ttl compatible", hall effect sensors with "non-digital" outputs are analog, and output a voltage related to the field strength
[15:48:51] <TechIsCool> This is a switch so it should output on or off
[16:01:51] <TechIsCool> r00t|home: So when I place a 10k resistor between vcc and q it does nothing to q
[16:41:29] <timemage> TechIsCool, meaning it's still not working correctly or you're just not sure what the pullup should do?
[21:26:30] <rue_bed> whats q
[21:26:50] <rue_bed> the output of a flipflop?
[21:27:30] <tzanger> yes
[21:37:23] <Tom_itx> q is the quartermaster in james bond
[21:40:03] <tzanger> that too
[21:40:08] <tzanger> I bet he can hold a state
[21:47:36] <metalliqaz> hah
[21:47:39] <metalliqaz> geek joke
[22:25:19] <j4cbo> is the DFU bootloader that ships with a mega32u4 capable of erasing itself?
[22:26:00] <j4cbo> i thought it wasn't, but i have an avr here that enumerated on the bus before i flashed it (with dfu-programmer) and doesn't anymore, even with HWB tied low.
[22:26:38] <Tom_itx> is it dead now?
[22:26:52] <Tom_itx> i don't think the bootloader would do that by default
[22:27:06] <Tom_itx> i'm pretty sure you can modify one to do that
[22:27:20] <Tom_itx> what about the wdt etc?
[22:27:42] <Tom_itx> you need to disable the wdt i think
[22:27:47] <Tom_itx> or service it
[22:27:58] <Tom_itx> i think the bootloader enables it
[22:28:48] <j4cbo> it seems pretty dead. i jumpered HWB low and it's not enumerating on the bus (or even pulling d+ or d- high to indicate presence)
[22:29:19] <metalliqaz> the bootloader is usually in the part of flash that is NOT write-while-read
[22:29:22] <metalliqaz> right?
[22:29:35] <metalliqaz> so you'd have to use ISP or something like that, no?
[22:29:53] <Tom_itx> you can erase it with isp
[22:30:01] <j4cbo> i have not used ISP
[22:30:11] <Tom_itx> can you see it with isp?
[22:30:14] <j4cbo> i'd have to go dig up an ISP and wire it up
[22:30:30] <Casper> from what I understood, the write-while-read and all that is only for the normal program, not for the bootloader itself
[22:30:31] <Casper> but
[22:30:36] <metalliqaz> oh
[22:30:38] <Casper> j4cbo... have you changed the fuses?
[22:30:59] <metalliqaz> ah yes the fuses
[22:31:34] <Tom_itx> will dfu or flip write fuses?
[22:32:17] <j4cbo> i have invoked "dfu-programmer erase" and "dfu-programmer flash"
[22:32:26] <j4cbo> according to
http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc7618.pdf the bootloader is incapable of setting the fuses
[22:32:39] <Tom_itx> that's what i thought
[22:38:05] <j4cbo> well, any other ideas? :P
[22:39:19] <Tom_itx> reflash it with isp
[22:39:34] <Tom_itx> you can get the bootloader from atmel i'm pretty sure
[22:39:58] <j4cbo> ugh.
[22:40:09] <j4cbo> and how can i be sure this won't happen again?
[22:40:58] <j4cbo> the goal had been to not have to use ISP ever. that's why i'm using the 32u4 - so that it comes with a bootloader
[22:42:39] <Tom_itx> i dunno, i've programmed mine a few times with no problems
[22:42:59] <Tom_itx> i'm not using dfu though i use flip
[22:47:45] <zerocool5878> Hi guys I am looking to buy a proper avr programmer. I am tired of using arduino as isp. Can someone recommend a good one for me?
[22:48:47] <Casper> Tom_itx: a client for ya I think
[22:52:20] <j4cbo> aha
[22:52:22] <j4cbo> mystery solved
[22:52:32] <j4cbo> HWB does not have an effect on power-on reset
[22:52:38] <j4cbo> only after some *other* reset
[22:54:34] <nevdull> zerocool5878: i have and use both Lady Ada's tinyISP and Atmel's AVR ISP mkII. just depends on what's needed. the AVR ISP mkII is easy to integrate into atmel studio if you use it, but ISPtiny supplies power to the board (the AVR ISP mkII draws power from the board).
[22:58:50] <zerocool5878> nevdull: lady ada's can do basic attiny 328 and burn bootloaders?
[23:20:45] <eatyourguitar> zerocool5878
https://www.tindie.com/products/jeffmurchison/arduinoisp-deluxe-shield-kit/
[23:21:15] <eatyourguitar> http://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/tinykitlist/253
[23:21:56] <eatyourguitar> the cheaper one can only do 168/328, basically just the 28 pin AVR
[23:22:30] <eatyourguitar> although you can get cheaper programmers that are USB so you don't need to use the arduino
[23:46:16] * Xark notes that this is a nice alternative to Lady Ada's (fully compatible with same USB ID) -> http://littlewire.cc/
