#avr | Logs for 2013-04-20

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[00:14:51] <Casper> I had to block alibaba on google
[00:15:05] <Casper> man, I think I will fill up a spam complain on google
[00:15:18] <Casper> you do a search... and all of their sites show up...
[00:15:33] <Casper> one of the search I did... filled 3 pages of results...
[00:15:57] <Casper> it went to the 4th pages before I started to see something else than alibaba
[00:48:06] <langoliers> <theBear> also if they are attenuators and not 'volume knobs' they can't go to 0 anyway < a jfet can go pretty low current :)
[00:48:34] <langoliers> only problem is the nonlinearity at larger signal levels
[00:48:37] <theBear> but attenuator is a concept, it can only lessen by X dB, there is no concept of 0 with an attenuator
[00:49:00] <theBear> sure, some companies write '-infinity dB', but that's just silly
[00:49:10] <theBear> that's a volume knob, not an attenuator
[00:50:27] <Casper> or they assume that -130db is -infinity because you can't hear anything
[00:51:17] <Casper> theBear: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ibropyf9zacmsm1/2013-04-19%2017.12.40.jpg ← on a package... because we ordered 10x CR2032 from digikey
[00:51:43] <theBear> heh, i already know what to expect
[00:52:01] <theBear> that's a nice one... farnells got some bright yellow ones for batteries and solder these days
[00:52:36] <Casper> when I saw the package, I was like: lol
[00:52:55] <Casper> some cr2032.... it can't do shit :D
[00:52:58] <theBear> thank god mobiles and laptops only have li-* and not primary lithium cells :)
[00:53:07] <Casper> actually
[00:53:10] <Casper> it does have one
[00:53:17] <theBear> ooh, good point
[00:53:54] <Casper> and all cellphone have one
[00:54:23] <theBear> aww c'mon, all that poly and ions makes them safer, not at all more likely to explode violently if damaged :)
[00:54:27] <Casper> and ipod... and game console and... well, about everything that's allowed in the airplane :D
[00:54:49] <Casper> funny thing is...
[00:55:15] <Casper> I ordered a few month ago some CR2450
[00:55:22] <Casper> and it didn'T came with that label
[00:55:40] <Casper> thinking about it...
[00:55:43] <theBear> they're 8% more dangerous than 2032 !!!!!
[00:55:48] <theBear> my god man ! you'll kill us all !
[00:56:08] <Casper> man I think those new batts really last longer (and are cheaper) than the local store one
[00:57:03] <Casper> 2$ each locally, 1.08$ at digikey
[01:01:59] <vsync1> derp
[01:02:02] <vsync1> well
[01:02:06] <langoliers> cr2032 can burn underwater too, it contains lithium.
[01:02:16] <vsync1> at least apple's laptops have lipos
[01:02:22] <langoliers> not that dangerous, but still can ignite things
[01:02:44] <vsync1> ...which aren't dangerous, if used correctly
[01:03:00] <langoliers> a knife is not dangerous if you use it correctly
[01:03:09] <vsync1> excellent analogy
[01:03:12] <Casper> apple can'T fit li-ion in their macbook, not enought space
[01:03:34] <Casper> a sharp knife is less dangerous than a blunt one too
[01:03:36] <vsync1> it's more of a weight thing than physical dimensions
[01:04:35] <vsync1> last summer over here some rc kid burned their parents' house down with lipos... or well, at least that was the initial conclusion
[01:04:46] <vsync1> their, his
[01:04:53] <theBear> lol
[01:04:56] <Casper> quite possible, sadly
[01:05:03] <vsync1> yes
[01:05:14] <vsync1> i do rc too, quite familiar with the batt type
[01:05:21] <theBear> surprised more adult rc-ers don't manage it :)
[01:05:22] <Casper> sadly, kids don't care about safety...
[01:05:37] <Casper> "oh the battery is twice the initial size! Let's charge it up!"
[01:05:55] <theBear> not those like us, those who think they can whack a bunch of cells together and sloppily solder some fat red stupid current connectors together and be like us
[01:06:00] <theBear> lol
[01:06:01] <vsync1> yes, or charging it with like 5C
[01:06:12] <langoliers> Casper<= it really is not
[01:06:31] <langoliers> with a blunt knife you can cut potatoes not cuttig your skin.
[01:06:36] <vsync1> theBear: well i got some cheapo lipos from china which had soldering exactly as you described :)
[01:06:55] <theBear> langoliers, hehe, some of us can do it with a sharp knife too <grin>
[01:07:22] <langoliers> theBear<= only if you put it down to a proper cutting plate :)
[01:07:43] <theBear> nah, but i'm kinda a knife ninja.... in my adult life i've gotten right into manual skills
[01:07:43] <Casper> too bad that lipo don't like to be float charged
[01:08:10] * theBear is reminded of a web-pic with a floatey in a pool supporting a powerboard
[01:08:16] <vsync1> was wondering about that "new lithium battery" some guys had come up with in a university
[01:08:18] <langoliers> Casper<= it likes it, given you limit voltage.
[01:08:21] <theBear> powerstrip for you foreigners out there
[01:08:35] <vsync1> or well, there's like x number of "super battery!" invented each year but none produced
[01:08:48] <langoliers> though a li-po will lose its capacity if you leave it fully charged for weeks
[01:08:48] <vsync1> anyway, what did it say, 30x capacity and 1k x output
[01:08:51] <vsync1> and input
[01:08:58] <Casper> but you can't leave it like that ad infinitum
[01:09:03] <Casper> the plates get damaged
[01:09:18] <Casper> too bad that there is no "perfect" battery yet...
[01:09:22] <vsync1> yes, but you can store it for a year, easily, depends on the quality though
[01:09:23] <langoliers> there is
[01:09:24] <Casper> but I wonder about the LiFePO4...
[01:09:27] <langoliers> called A123
[01:09:28] <theBear> was looking at the local electronics hobby shop site the other day, some of the frontpage specials slipped into my vision... seems the new craze for cheap electronic models is no longer hydrogen fuel cells, but saltwater ones... how does that work then ?
[01:09:35] <langoliers> LiFePO4
[01:09:46] <vsync1> and you if you're planning to store lipo for long, you have to store it fully charged
[01:09:48] <Casper> it's not perfect
[01:09:53] <Casper> they are fucking expensive
[01:09:53] <vsync1> a123 is shit
[01:10:07] <vsync1> just plain steaming pile of dog turd
[01:10:18] <theBear> are a123 those little err, 6v? kinda half-stubby-aa cells ?
[01:10:23] <Casper> and the a123... they don'T have such a good reputation... about the worse one in the LiFePO4 world
[01:10:25] <langoliers> i don't see any reason for saying A123 is shit.
[01:10:45] <vsync1> welll
[01:10:47] <langoliers> it is less shit thananything you ever owned
[01:11:01] <vsync1> you can do everything a123 does with a lipo with less weight
[01:11:04] <theBear> whatever those are, i need a new one for my cool little led head torch
[01:11:25] <vsync1> problem?
[01:11:26] <langoliers> vsync1<= ok then put a nail through your li-po while it is fully charged dude
[01:11:43] <vsync1> i see no practical applications of nailing batteries, though
[01:11:54] <langoliers> vsync1<= it is a measurement of safety.
[01:11:55] <langoliers> really.
[01:12:03] <langoliers> and A123 will not explode
[01:12:08] <vsync1> well, there's this thing called natural selection...
[01:12:25] <vsync1> they'll learn after they nail their lipos, or they don't and possibly die
[01:12:27] <Casper> and actually vsync1... LiFePO4 have a better cycle count, efficiency, safety and service life than li-ion and lipo... but are a bit heavier
[01:12:39] <Casper> but... isn't a123 out of production?
[01:12:49] <langoliers> it never will.
[01:12:59] <langoliers> us military needs them
[01:12:59] <vsync1> Casper: define 'efficiency'?
[01:13:13] <vsync1> and what's the lifespan (cycles) on a123?
[01:13:33] <langoliers> 1000-10000 giving 50-90% of initial
[01:13:35] <Casper> vsync1: charge/discharge efficiency, aka what goes in and out
[01:13:41] <langoliers> depending on how hard you abuse them
[01:13:51] <vsync1> Casper: well the planet's fekked anyway :) no green stuff!
[01:13:57] <Casper> and lifepo4 also don't have the 25% anual capacity lost
[01:14:13] <vsync1> well the only thing then that shines through on a123 is the lifespan
[01:14:19] <Casper> langoliers: I dare you to find any true a123 batts
[01:14:25] <vsync1> that's pretty astounding, gotta give that much
[01:14:33] <Casper> they call them a123, but it's not made by the original manufacturer
[01:14:49] <langoliers> vsync1<= and many other things you don't recognize yet
[01:14:53] <Casper> and a123 is now like "C" batts.. only a size/type...
[01:15:02] <vsync1> langoliers: enlighten me
[01:15:08] <langoliers> that extra weight is well worth it
[01:15:34] <vsync1> well, safety's good for some other purposes, but not mine
[01:15:51] <vsync1> and as i said, natural selection's always good
[01:16:06] <Casper> actually
[01:16:12] <langoliers> 10x or more cycle life,
[01:16:14] <Casper> for RC plane/heli...
[01:16:23] <Casper> lipo is a better choice
[01:16:31] <Casper> higher C rate and lighter...
[01:16:31] <vsync1> it is, way better
[01:16:37] <langoliers> 2.2Ah cell can be charged at 10A or more without explosion
[01:16:48] <vsync1> langoliers: so can be good quality lipos
[01:16:48] <Casper> those 2 make them more suited
[01:16:58] <langoliers> it can give 120A peak current, 70A cont.
[01:17:07] <vsync1> Casper: well, capacity/weight
[01:17:21] <vsync1> langoliers: so can Li-Po
[01:17:29] <langoliers> can be charged to 12V without exploding
[01:17:32] <langoliers> ;)
[01:17:39] <Casper> langoliers: actually, lifepo4 have a lower C rate for discharge, both in continuous and peak
[01:17:44] <langoliers> ( cell is 3.65V fully charged)
[01:17:59] <vsync1> 2.2 Ah going up to 120A is like what, 50+ C
[01:18:08] <vsync1> that is pretty high
[01:18:12] <vsync1> though lipos can do 60+
[01:18:40] <langoliers> and give 30 seconds of operation ?
[01:18:45] <langoliers> yeah
[01:18:51] <vsync1> no
[01:19:02] <langoliers> what?
[01:19:10] <vsync1> it is burst, doubt it that a123 dishes out peak current for too long either
[01:19:12] <langoliers> 1C = rated capacity for 1 hour!
[01:19:20] <vsync1> well true that
[01:19:25] <vsync1> if talking capacity
[01:19:42] <vsync1> but i wasn't rooting for lipos because of their output
[01:19:43] <vsync1> :p
[01:19:57] <langoliers> also A123 can be overdischarged below 2.0V and it will not die like competitors.
[01:19:57] <Casper> langoliers: I did the research, and people that tried lifepo4 all came to the same conclusion: don't use for RC heli/planes
[01:20:15] <Casper> and langoliers stop calling them a123
[01:20:24] <Casper> a123 is DEAD and is a brand
[01:20:28] <langoliers> the a123 cells?
[01:20:39] <vsync1> langoliers: well, most of th ose things are just examples of using the batteries in ways they were not meant to be used...
[01:20:57] <langoliers> http://www.a123systems.com/ < is it dead?
[01:20:59] <vsync1> if you wanna charge lipos up to 12v per cell well that's your problem
[01:21:16] <langoliers> On January 29, 2013, Wanxiang America acquired nearly all the business interests of A123 Systems. The company continues to operate its engineering and manufacturing centers around the world while retaining the A123 name and logo.
[01:21:32] <vsync1> and... you really don't wanna run lipos under ~3 V per cell, but that isn't too hard to accomplish either
[01:22:28] <Casper> vsync1: not to mention that you will gain what... 1% more capacity from 3 down to 0?
[01:22:44] <langoliers> i think it is proper to call the A123 cells A123 cells, and they developed it.
[01:22:46] <vsync1> yep but it's more like the "oops" thing some people have pulled off
[01:23:14] <langoliers> there are many chinese replica out there labeled LiFePO4 with degraded performance, charge rate of 0.5C
[01:23:45] <Casper> langoliers: they stopped to sell to end users, only big compagny can buy their cells, and can not resell individually, only in system
[01:23:53] <langoliers> and they buy it for EV-s because they are cheap
[01:24:24] <Casper> langoliers: so in other words: if you see A123 cells, they are chinese ripoff
[01:24:35] <vsync1> langoliers: well, when you're talking about safety... I'm wondering, safety becomes a _really big_ issue only when we're starting to talk about big applications
[01:24:52] <langoliers> there is no restriction in what "big companies" do with the cells they bought :P
[01:24:56] <vsync1> so, charging up a 100 Ah pack @ 10C
[01:24:59] <langoliers> sell as packs, or as bare cells.
[01:24:59] <vsync1> that's some hella charging
[01:25:20] <Casper> langoliers: wrong, if GM would start to sell them in individual cells, they will lose the right to purchase
[01:25:21] <vsync1> ...when you were talking about how good the charge rate is
[01:26:15] <Casper> langoliers: and yes, a123 is like that now: they sell the cells, the compagny assemble in huge pack... and are required to install them themself. you can't even buy the pack and install it yourself
[01:26:22] <vsync1> when we will start needing fast-charge batteries in e.g. electrical cars, a123 won't be a good option
[01:26:32] <vsync1> you just can't simply fast charge those packs
[01:26:37] <langoliers> vsync1<= yeah, if you want to charge your EV quick then you need some power, 48Vx100A = 4.8kW
[01:26:40] <vsync1> or you need a god damn nuclear power plant
[01:27:18] <vsync1> 100Ah pack at 10C is 1 kA
[01:27:38] * Casper wants 12V 40AH of lifepo4 for 150$ max :D
[01:27:45] <Casper> of high quality
[01:28:02] <langoliers> you connect your arc-welder system in seriese with your battery charger, and do some welding while it charges
[01:28:23] <vsync1> so, a123 won't be the super-battery of the future
[01:28:50] <Casper> vsync1: currently, lifepo4 is the best chemistry, just too expensive
[01:29:14] <langoliers> vsync1<= are you saying the battery of the future is li-po ? and you want to charge it with 1A while it charges at 1000A, extracting zero point energy from the universe ?
[01:29:23] <vsync1> langoliers: :D
[01:29:29] <Casper> well, best... depending on the applications...
[01:29:35] <vsync1> no, not saying, i'm saying they're equally 'bad'
[01:29:54] <Casper> vsync1: rc stuff abuse the chemistry
[01:29:57] <langoliers> a li-po's charge efficiency is not better than an a123
[01:30:04] <vsync1> langoliers: no it isn't :)
[01:30:10] <langoliers> it can be >98%
[01:30:35] <langoliers> these things have internal resistances in the milliohm range
[01:30:43] <vsync1> yep
[01:30:45] <Casper> if it wasn't of that, then they would go with lifepo4... the price is well worth it, but the weight and the difficulty to find the cells and a proper charger make them unsuited
[01:31:07] <langoliers> Casper<= they are not that expensive if you look at their lifespan
[01:31:21] <langoliers> it is just you pay the next 10 years now
[01:31:26] <vsync1> but the most promising thing right now, are the graphene stuff I think. But they're not available for probably another ten years, if even then
[01:31:46] <vsync1> if batts made outta that stuff really can charge up like caps
[01:32:02] <vsync1> maybe even blow up like caps
[01:32:04] <vsync1> mmmmmm
[01:32:12] <langoliers> Casper<= http://www.a123systems.com/prismatic-cell-amp20.htm
[01:32:38] <langoliers> some of these? :) 3.3V, 20Ah
[01:32:52] <vsync1> go apeshit 10C charging
[01:32:59] <Casper> langoliers: yes, that would mean 6 of 'em
[01:33:06] <vsync1> oh my
[01:33:18] <vsync1> that'd be some hella 10c charging!
[01:33:20] <Casper> with no datasheet, so hard to know if it will work
[01:33:23] <langoliers> 4 in series gives you a 12V batt
[01:33:40] <Casper> woops
[01:33:43] <Casper> yeah so 8
[01:33:54] * Casper got an hard week at work
[01:33:55] <vsync1> nominal voltage of errrr
[01:33:58] <vsync1> math fails me
[01:34:13] <vsync1> 26.2?
[01:34:16] <Casper> well, sleep time
[01:34:21] <langoliers> i think these like 80A charge
[01:34:22] <Casper> 4s2p
[01:34:23] <vsync1> 26.4
[01:34:27] <vsync1> oh
[01:34:40] <vsync1> I think they like 200A charge.
[01:34:45] <langoliers> :)
[01:34:52] <langoliers> depends on how hot you like them
[01:35:05] <vsync1> Casper: before you go, what's the application if i may ask?
[01:35:10] <Casper> DC ups
[01:35:26] <vsync1> does it have to be compact?
[01:35:33] <Casper> no
[01:35:38] * theBear raises the roof
[01:35:40] <vsync1> cause why not use a standard 12V batt then
[01:35:41] <Casper> but I'm tired to buy batts every 3 years
[01:35:42] <theBear> BIG ups :)
[01:35:44] <vsync1> oh
[01:36:00] <langoliers> hey theBear
[01:36:03] <vsync1> theBear: oh you drunk
[01:36:19] <theBear> not yet, i just been watching too much bad british comedy
[01:37:21] <vsync1> Casper: though at least agm batts have an ok lifespan
[01:37:30] <vsync1> more than 3, i'd say. At least on that usage
[01:37:38] <langoliers> vsync1<= hacked their site and found this pdf, i give a link illegally to you now here http://www.a123systems.com/Collateral/Documents/English-US/A123%20Systems%20AMP20%20Data%20Sheet.pdf
[01:38:02] * theBear points a cheek the other way :)
[01:38:14] <vsync1> you wouldn't even be pulling hella amps outta it
[01:38:41] <Casper> vsync1: 3-5 years is what AGM last...
[01:39:04] <vsync1> i've seen batts used for starter motors last more than 5 in an ok shape
[01:39:19] <vsync1> langoliers: i'm a bit skeptic on the operating temp range
[01:39:21] <theBear> maybe do regular cheap lead acid and workout some kind of fluid circulation system :)
[01:39:25] <langoliers> 3000 cycles with 90% of initial capacity sounds good
[01:39:39] <langoliers> +1C/-2C
[01:39:57] <vsync1> the datasheet says -30 ... 55 C
[01:40:13] <langoliers> so?
[01:40:16] <vsync1> highly doubting about the lower end
[01:40:18] <langoliers> what is the problem with that?
[01:40:39] <Casper> langoliers: sadly, they also don't talk about their service life in years...
[01:40:42] <langoliers> it can run an ev at -30C with your wheels spinning.
[01:40:43] <Casper> only in cycle
[01:41:32] <langoliers> Casper<= hmm, if you charge it every day then you get 365 cycles per year .
[01:41:45] <vsync1> langoliers: well the output of the batt is the question, at -30
[01:41:57] <langoliers> 10 years everyday use with 90% capacity remaining sound good
[01:41:58] <vsync1> any batt could run an ev at -30 if you warm it up first
[01:42:52] <vsync1> wondering, what sort of batts does the tesla model s use
[01:43:05] <vsync1> is the type specified anywhere
[01:43:25] <vsync1> li-something I'd think but no proper clarification?
[01:43:56] <langoliers> Casper<= here is the smaller size 26650 http://www.a123systems.com/Collateral/Documents/English-US/A123%20Systems%20ANR26650%20Data%20Sheet.pdf
[01:44:28] <Casper> langoliers: it's not as simple as that
[01:44:34] <langoliers> and there is the discharge graph
[01:44:35] <Casper> usually batts lose capacity with the years
[01:45:46] <Casper> but anyway
[01:45:51] <Casper> I'm 2.5 hours late on sleep
[01:45:52] <Casper> nite
[01:47:16] <theBear> cya
[01:47:39] <langoliers> btw a123 uses nanotechnology in case you don't know http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/6610_1.pdf
[01:48:07] <langoliers> and here is the MSDS http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/6610_2.pdf
[01:48:36] <langoliers> they say "do not eat it stupid"
[01:51:28] <langoliers> vsync1<= your li-po's performance also decreases with every cycle, and it decreases at a higher rate if you fully charge it, and fully discharge it
[01:52:07] <langoliers> li-po don't like to be deep-cycled like the lead-acid type
[01:53:36] <vsync1> yes, but i never fully discharge em
[01:54:54] <vsync1> i run around ~150 cycles through 1-2 ah packs
[01:55:10] <vsync1> and i don't mind buying $10 packs every few years
[01:55:20] <langoliers> the old cells can do about 80-250 cycles in an rc plane
[01:55:48] <langoliers> but if you want your full 3 minutes you need to discharge them much.
[01:56:16] <vsync1> cant do 250 cycles
[01:56:19] <vsync1> its rly pushing
[01:56:46] <langoliers> so half year flown every day once ?
[01:56:53] <langoliers> what plane you have?
[01:57:18] <vsync1> when its the season
[01:57:20] <vsync1> multiple
[01:57:22] <vsync1> hold on brb
[02:11:16] <vsync1> langoliers: yeah so i have multiple
[02:11:26] <vsync1> not anything too big, ~1m wingspan most
[02:11:35] <vsync1> most of them*
[02:13:29] <langoliers> have a quadcopter? :)
[02:14:17] <vsync1> yeah got one
[02:14:42] <vsync1> no fpv stuff or photography, not into that
[02:14:50] <vsync1> 3d flying mostly
[02:16:16] <vsync1> at the moment i have 2x ~1m wingspan foamie 3d planes, and a quad
[02:16:47] <vsync1> and somewhere around 10x 3s1p 1000-1500 mAh lipos, and a few bigger ones for the quad
[02:17:06] <vsync1> need a new plane for this summer... was thinking of this beauty. http://www.singahobby.com/files/images/5290364.jpg
[02:17:19] <vsync1> been flying for around 8 years now :p
[02:18:13] <langoliers> i like these only in electric, the fuel burning technology just sucks
[02:18:46] <vsync1> i don't like gas either
[02:18:54] <vsync1> the plane in the picture, is electric
[02:19:06] <vsync1> 1.2m wingspan
[02:19:51] <langoliers> i'll have some exercise monday, with a 22" crt monitor
[02:20:22] <vsync1> huh?
[02:20:30] <langoliers> it weights more than 20kgs
[02:21:10] <vsync1> yep well
[02:21:15] <vsync1> we had a 36" CRT TV :)
[02:21:25] <langoliers> :)
[02:21:32] <vsync1> just the glass weighed a butt ton
[02:21:50] <langoliers> that had some weight too i guess, though pc monitors are heavier
[02:22:05] <langoliers> oh yea the glass, and the metals
[02:22:15] <langoliers> old things had mass in them
[02:22:18] <vsync1> it was around 80 kgs iirc
[02:22:37] <vsync1> so yeah
[02:22:58] <langoliers> new things are just made from recycled aluminium cans
[02:23:15] <langoliers> like the LG dvd write ;)
[02:23:19] <vsync1> heh
[02:23:29] <vsync1> well, lcd tech weighs a lot less than a god damn tube
[02:23:38] <langoliers> sure
[02:23:42] <vsync1> and they don't have the glass
[02:23:46] <langoliers> 22" is like 7.5kg with a large box
[02:23:52] <vsync1> yeh
[02:24:56] <langoliers> now i was said i haev 5 days for the ps2 keyboard development, cool?
[02:25:14] <vsync1> shouldn't be too hard?
[02:25:17] <langoliers> hardware deisgn + software write
[02:25:25] <vsync1> well
[02:25:30] <vsync1> better start eagleing
[02:25:48] <langoliers> i have no problem with drawing it, it should be full-proof
[02:26:10] <langoliers> technicians wiring everything up incorrectly
[02:26:16] <vsync1> lol
[02:26:36] <vsync1> well is there time for you to build one and use that as a debugger for the software
[02:26:45] <langoliers> ;<
[02:26:51] <langoliers> i don't want to
[02:26:57] <langoliers> it should just work
[02:27:10] <vsync1> the engineer is weak in this one
[03:05:48] <Roklobsta> would i be insane to try polar-ssl on the avr?
[03:17:13] <OndraSter> polar-ssl?
[03:22:38] <bitd> Why don't we have a google bot in here <.<
[03:22:44] <OndraSter> :P
[03:23:02] <OndraSter> I ment it more "why the hell would you do that on AVR"
[03:23:38] <Roklobsta> i have been goolging and not had much luck on any kind of implementation suite for an AVR
[03:24:05] <OndraSter> for obvious reasons :)
[03:24:10] <Roklobsta> yeah alas.
[03:24:25] <bitd> No no, was not trying to say that OndraSter
[03:24:36] <bitd> Just something I would like, a google bot.
[03:24:41] <OndraSter> oh
[03:24:45] <bitd> So instead of us all having to google it.
[03:24:47] <OndraSter> bad timing :D
[03:24:56] <bitd> just type !g polar-ssl
[03:25:04] <OndraSter> Opera style
[03:25:05] <bitd> And it spits out the first two results.
[03:25:58] <Corwin> what happened to tobbor bot by the way?
[03:26:52] <Corwin> did it just died?
[03:27:52] <OndraSter> !seen tobbor
[03:27:56] <OndraSter> .... that was a dumb idea
[03:28:07] <Corwin> :D
[03:28:25] <bitd> Chicken and egg problem right there <.<
[03:40:41] <OndraSter> Dear companies. If you have some weird name, TELL US HOW TO PRONOUNCE IT
[03:40:54] <OndraSter> like KYCON. Is it "kajkn"? "Kikn"?
[03:45:15] <Roklobsta> Cunt
[03:45:57] <Roklobsta> i am looking for some sort of crypto for the avr
[03:46:07] <Roklobsta> polar sll was the 1st stop but of course it's too heavy
[03:47:25] <Corwin> AES is not enough?
[03:47:55] <Roklobsta> should be fine, i am thinking of the extra stuff like good key management (IKE(
[03:48:10] <Corwin> then stop thinking about AVR :)
[03:48:35] <Roklobsta> i am stuck with it
[03:48:51] <Roklobsta> for a certain board. i wish it had arm of avr32
[03:48:56] <Roklobsta> or
[03:49:56] <bitd> Who you calling a cunt <.<
[03:50:48] <Roklobsta> suggestion for procouncing KYCON
[03:50:53] <bitd> ;D
[03:54:12] <bitd> Roklobsta, are you tied to that board because of a school assignment?
[04:04:40] <Roklobsta> bitd: no to make $$
[04:04:47] <Roklobsta> ultimately
[04:05:06] <Roklobsta> might just have to cook up something with 3DES or AES
[04:06:29] <Roklobsta> the board does tcpip (OK it's got GPRS) but crypto would be nice
[04:19:48] <OndraSter> Roklobsta, xmega :)
[04:19:51] <OndraSter> hardware AES and DES
[04:21:20] <OndraSter> omg Java is so awesome that the updater froze
[04:23:20] <bitd> Haha, typical.
[04:26:46] <Roklobsta> too late alas no xmega
[04:30:39] <OndraSter> ;(
[04:33:04] <megal0maniac> "jusched.exe would like to run. Yes? No?" > No. > "Java updates are available for your computer!!!!1!"
[04:33:19] <bitd> Hahaha.
[04:33:30] <megal0maniac> It's funny because it's true every second day
[04:33:59] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: I was taking a look at some 44pin tqfp xmegas :) Start small...
[04:36:36] <OndraSter> megal0maniac, :)
[04:36:47] <OndraSter> haha, I clik on YES, then click on INSTALL
[04:36:47] <megal0maniac> 64D4 in particular
[04:36:48] <OndraSter> and then it froze
[04:36:50] <OndraSter> hmm
[04:36:59] <OndraSter> weren't 64d4 quite expensive?
[04:37:06] <OndraSter> I did not see them on farnell nor mouser at all
[04:37:21] <OndraSter> only 32
[04:38:16] <OndraSter> they are on mouser, but 530 minimum :P
[04:38:23] <megal0maniac> R36.49 for 64D4 and R31.49 for mega328P :)
[04:38:34] <OndraSter> well you do know that all regular megas are overpriced
[04:38:38] <OndraSter> what about 128a4u?
[04:38:46] <OndraSter> it should be the same as 64d4 :P
[04:39:04] <OndraSter> I mean, I paid for one 128a4u only $2.9 and I bought 25 of them
[04:39:18] <OndraSter> and it is completely different class (A series vs D series)
[04:39:32] <OndraSter> D series is the low cost with only 32MHz core, nothing special
[04:39:34] <megal0maniac> It's about $4.50 for the 64D4. $5.80 for 128A3U
[04:39:35] <OndraSter> no DAC, no DMA
[04:39:41] <OndraSter> a3u.. what about a4u
[04:40:01] <megal0maniac> My bad. That is the a4u price :)
[04:40:09] <OndraSter> oh
[04:40:14] <OndraSter> and what about regular A3?
[04:40:15] <OndraSter> without USB
[04:41:13] <megal0maniac> Don't have that
[04:41:18] <OndraSter> oh
[04:41:32] <OndraSter> well, the 128a4u has got twice the RAM (8kB vs 4kB on 64d4.. or does it have 8kB too?)
[04:41:33] <OndraSter> twice the flash
[04:41:38] <OndraSter> it has got DAC, DMA, USB
[04:41:44] <OndraSter> much better ADC
[04:41:45] <megal0maniac> But they're all < $10, which is fine for one offs :)
[04:42:03] <OndraSter> hmmm, should I rotate the chip?
[04:42:04] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/4WIaUV
[04:42:18] <megal0maniac> Oh wow... And it's tqfp44 as well
[04:42:23] <OndraSter> yes
[04:42:26] <OndraSter> same pinout I think maybe even
[04:42:36] <OndraSter> see xmegas have got good numbering scheme
[04:42:43] <OndraSter> *4 == 44pin
[04:42:46] <OndraSter> *3 = 64pin
[04:42:49] <OndraSter> *1 = 100pin
[04:42:52] <OndraSter> *5 = 32pin
[04:42:59] <OndraSter> a series = max peripherals
[04:43:03] <OndraSter> b series = LCD
[04:43:16] <OndraSter> d series = low cost, pretty much mega but on 32MHz clock
[04:43:20] <OndraSter> c series = mix of A and D
[04:43:38] <OndraSter> e series = with simple LUT on few pins
[04:43:51] <OndraSter> **u = USB module
[04:43:59] <OndraSter> **b* = with battery backup
[04:44:02] <OndraSter> ;)
[04:44:04] <OndraSter> simple as that
[04:44:26] <megal0maniac> I have noticed most of those, but thank you for enlightening me on the others :)
[04:44:34] <megal0maniac> LUT?
[04:44:46] <OndraSter> well they have some programmable timers with programmable UARTs and what not
[04:44:48] <OndraSter> check the datasheet
[04:44:51] <OndraSter> I did not study it really
[04:44:56] <OndraSter> it looks cool but no idea what it is good for :D
[04:48:24] <megal0maniac> Wow.. http://za.rs-online.com/web/p/microcontrollers/7153820/
[04:48:41] <megal0maniac> That's like $5
[05:15:59] <RikusW> megal0maniac: and how will you program it ?
[05:16:44] <OndraSter> they don't have burned in DFU?
[05:17:28] <megal0maniac> RikusW: PDI?
[05:17:37] <megal0maniac> Oh, the parallax :)
[05:17:40] <megal0maniac> I won't
[05:17:51] <OndraSter> you will just look at it :P
[05:18:10] <megal0maniac> Until something blinks
[05:18:16] <specing> megal0maniac: I bought M4F devkits $5 each
[05:18:37] <specing> correction: we all bought them
[05:18:42] <RikusW> megal0maniac: you will blink while looking at it :-P
[05:19:51] <RikusW> and the link you posted is ATSAM3S1AA-AU not parallax
[05:20:05] <RikusW> blame the pics from RS
[05:20:15] <megal0maniac> specing: Yeah, but that was definitely at a loss for TI
[05:20:23] <vsync1> oh megal0maniac btw did you get your hack done? Wasn't it some sensor hack for arduino, or the type
[05:20:28] <vsync1> for some school usage oslt
[05:20:31] <megal0maniac> RikusW: Whoops. You're right
[05:21:21] <megal0maniac> vsync1: The project took a break after I set the DWEN fuse bit. Supporting circuitry didn't allow for HVPP and I wasn't about to desolder TQFP (because I'd break it)
[05:21:56] <megal0maniac> So I sent it to RikusW to have a look and it got lost in the mail. :) Got a new one this week, but university is keeping me too busy to carry on
[05:22:08] <megal0maniac> But the hardware is done
[05:22:16] <twnqx> Oo
[05:22:18] <RikusW> this is nuts, I got it for 50c from Mantech http://za.rs-online.com/web/p/idc-connectors/6741230/
[05:23:31] <megal0maniac> Well that is the price for 5x
[05:23:43] <megal0maniac> But yeah, that's RS for you
[05:24:03] <twnqx> kinda normal
[05:24:06] <RikusW> http://www.mantech.co.za/Stock.aspx?Query=idc%20header%2010wand
[05:24:13] <RikusW> well still a lot cheaper than RS
[05:24:20] <twnqx> IDC headers are only cheap in huge amounts
[05:24:33] <twnqx> distributors like RS have a huge margin on small amounts
[05:24:39] <RikusW> RS stock a lot of AVRs
[05:24:47] <RikusW> and fairly cheaply too
[05:24:50] <twnqx> rs stocks tons of everything
[05:25:00] <RikusW> but some of their prices are nuts
[05:25:20] <vsync1> go digikey
[05:25:32] <twnqx> same for IDC connectors
[05:25:37] <twnqx> i once made a HUGE mistake
[05:25:43] <twnqx> and used 1.27mm IDC connectors
[05:25:55] <twnqx> try go get ribbon cables for that...
[05:26:30] <RikusW> megal0maniac: put atmega into the MT searchbox, theirs is way overpriced
[05:27:04] <RikusW> R75 for m8 !
[05:29:27] <megal0maniac> RikusW: The 328P is about R75 too, but only R33 if it has an Arduino bootloader :P
[05:29:34] <OndraSter> lol
[05:30:41] * twnqx wtfs
[05:30:54] <twnqx> finally figured out why my laptop's battery life was so low all the time
[05:31:08] <twnqx> apparently at some point i disabled cpu frequency scaling and always ran it full throttle
[05:34:49] <RikusW> (R9.40 = 1USD)
[05:34:52] <RikusW> http://www.mantech.co.za/Stock.aspx?Query=gw+instekand
[05:58:34] <megal0maniac> RikusW: Well, R8.25 is you compensate for VAT
[06:03:39] <Roklobsta> who the hell needs java now?
[06:04:45] <OndraSter> one of the czech banks
[06:04:51] <OndraSter> but the fun does not end there
[06:05:03] <OndraSter> one part of the web app works only in old java 6
[06:05:05] <OndraSter> not in the new java 7
[06:05:11] <OndraSter> enough to say, I am not their customer
[06:05:15] <OndraSter> I use java because of Minecraft :<
[06:06:42] <specing> OndraSter: stop using minecraft, then
[06:07:01] <OndraSter> but we are about to go to space!
[06:07:21] <jadew> never played that game, is it any good?
[06:07:30] <OndraSter> jadew, it is addicting
[06:08:01] <Roklobsta> aha http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc2589.pdf
[06:11:17] <megal0maniac> When setting the first 4 bits to 1 while leaving the other 4 alone, you use |= 0xF. Is there a more logical way of setting the same bits to 0 than |= 0xF0 ?
[06:12:02] <OndraSter> e?
[06:12:09] <OndraSter> you mean &= ~0x0F
[06:12:18] <OndraSter> or &= 0xF0
[06:12:20] <OndraSter> (same thing)
[06:12:57] <megal0maniac> Ah, ~ is the answer
[06:13:01] <megal0maniac> Thank you :)
[06:13:20] <OndraSter> and &
[06:13:43] <megal0maniac> Yeah. |= is for setting high
[06:13:48] <OndraSter> ye
[06:15:04] <megal0maniac> Also, for 00001111, do you refer to the 1111 as the first or last 4 bits? i.e. Do AVRs work with MSB or LSB first?
[06:17:23] <twnqx> msb forst
[06:17:31] <twnqx> 0b00001111 == 0x0f
[06:17:41] <jadew> when talking bits, those will always be the first ones
[06:18:27] <jadew> regardless of msb/lsb, that's how you write them down
[06:18:31] <OndraSter> yep
[06:18:37] <megal0maniac> Cool, thanks. Should be quiet for a bit now :P
[06:18:41] <jadew> it's just a number, like any other number in base 10
[06:18:49] <jadew> you never write 20 as 02
[06:19:10] <jadew> so there's no reason to write 10 as 01 when it comes to binary numbers
[06:20:12] <megal0maniac> Yeah, makes sense
[06:20:55] <RikusW> AVR is little endian too
[06:21:02] <RikusW> the flash anyways
[06:21:46] <RikusW> since its 8bit you can determine endianness in sw
[06:21:50] <RikusW> fw
[06:22:01] <RikusW> afaik gcc use little endian
[06:25:38] <Roklobsta> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XTEA looks like a nice AVR friendly crypto too
[06:32:48] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/4WJy37
[06:32:51] <OndraSter> now vs before :P
[06:33:25] <OndraSter> I can also add TOSlink!
[06:33:43] * megal0maniac likes TOSlink
[06:35:37] <megal0maniac> Done! http://pastebin.com/cQBkvhkC
[06:36:32] <megal0maniac> Does switch/case provide any advantage as far as efficiency goes?
[06:36:57] <OndraSter> there is even a better way :P
[06:37:47] <megal0maniac> Do share
[06:37:58] <OndraSter> char numbers[] = { 0x81, 0xCF, 0x92, 0x86, 0xCC, 0xA4, 0xA0, 0x8F, 0x80, 0x84 }
[06:37:58] <OndraSter> PORTC = numbers[bcdInput];
[06:37:59] <OndraSter> ;)
[06:38:15] <megal0maniac> Clever :)
[06:38:18] <OndraSter> yep
[06:38:30] <megal0maniac> I've forgotten tricks like this :P
[06:38:36] <OndraSter> it uses 10B more of RAM, but much less flash
[06:38:51] <megal0maniac> Clock cycles?
[06:38:52] <OndraSter> you could make it read flash and waste zero RAM
[06:38:54] <OndraSter> that too
[06:38:57] <OndraSter> no comparison
[06:39:46] <OndraSter> just ldi zl, somenum, ldi zh, somenum, add zl bcdInput, adc zh r1, lds r16, z, out portc, r16
[06:40:24] <specing> *add zl, r1
[06:40:32] <OndraSter> no
[06:40:34] <OndraSter> ;)
[06:40:40] <specing> oh right
[06:40:42] <OndraSter> yep
[06:40:44] <OndraSter> 16bit add
[06:40:45] <specing> didnt see the bcdinput
[06:40:46] <OndraSter> ;)
[06:42:38] <specing> If you align the array to 256-bytes, that would become even shorter
[06:42:47] <OndraSter> yep
[06:42:49] <OndraSter> by the adc
[06:42:53] <OndraSter> and ldi zl
[06:42:58] <OndraSter> although you'd have to do clr zl
[06:43:01] <OndraSter> so it does not matter
[06:43:06] <specing> why clear?
[06:43:11] <specing> just mov the value there
[06:43:21] <OndraSter> clear or mov, both take the same amount of flash space
[06:43:30] <megal0maniac> http://pastebin.com/dyG3M51V
[06:43:44] <specing> yes, but after clr you still have to load the value there
[06:44:25] <OndraSter> if it is 256byte aligned
[06:44:27] <OndraSter> then it is 00
[06:44:29] <specing> yes
[06:44:41] <OndraSter> megal0maniac, the beginning is probably copying data section from flash
[06:48:13] <OndraSter> I hate you VLC. It crashes when I connect over RDP
[06:48:29] <OndraSter> flash sometimes loses sound (since it switches to virtual remote sound card)
[06:48:41] <OndraSter> vlc crashes on video
[06:48:45] <OndraSter> on sound it sometimes loses the sound too
[06:49:36] <megal0maniac> VLC is quite good at crashing
[06:49:43] <OndraSter> yep
[06:49:46] <OndraSter> foxit reader too
[06:49:53] <OndraSter> adobe reader, when installed, broke spooler service :D
[06:49:57] <dpy> hi guys
[06:49:59] <specing> Thats what you get for using windoze
[06:50:04] <OndraSter> hi dpy
[06:50:24] <OndraSter> don't worry specing, linux does not properly boot on my laptop... either acpi issues with clocking, or wifi
[06:50:26] <OndraSter> or ethernet
[06:50:29] <OndraSter> has issues
[06:50:45] <OndraSter> old gentoo (2007) = no underclocking, but eth works
[06:50:52] <dpy> Hi OndraSter
[06:50:59] <OndraSter> new 3.7.10 kernel = underclocks but stays underclocked, eth does not work
[06:51:52] <specing> OndraSter: you could still grab the code and fix it, unlike with windows, where you can just bitch about it
[06:51:58] <OndraSter> no
[06:52:01] <OndraSter> on windows it all works :P
[06:52:06] <dpy> I thought linux hardware compatibilities on laptops was a thing of the past
[06:52:14] <OndraSter> dpy, my laptop is a think of the past
[06:52:15] <OndraSter> :D
[06:52:18] <dpy> ah
[06:52:18] <OndraSter> thing
[06:52:39] <OndraSter> bought 5 years ago, it was already 2 years on market
[06:52:50] <megal0maniac> Comparing Linux with Windows is comparing apples and pears. Yeah, they're both fruits, but... no.
[06:52:59] <OndraSter> MAC style eh?
[06:53:07] <specing> Im very happy with my laptop running Linux for the past 5 years
[06:53:16] <OndraSter> Lenovo I presume?
[06:53:23] <specing> no
[06:53:24] <dpy> Well, I'm on a dell precision m4400
[06:53:27] <specing> Compal OEM
[06:53:30] <dpy> 4,5 years old
[06:53:34] <specing> brandless
[06:53:35] <dpy> but works perfectly in linux
[06:53:57] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: I have a Lenovo
[06:54:09] <OndraSter> IIRC Lenovos were the best linux options in the past
[06:54:09] <megal0maniac> Too much of a mission to get everything working nicely
[06:54:37] <lefteris109> hi everyone
[06:54:40] <OndraSter> hi
[06:54:40] <specing> Im going to wait till haswell before buying a new one
[06:55:32] <lefteris109> has anyone here ever worked with avr butterfly?
[06:55:55] <OndraSter> I have
[06:56:03] <lefteris109> good
[06:56:19] <RikusW> am169 on there
[06:56:24] <OndraSter> yep
[06:56:29] <lefteris109> i'm building a voltagemeter
[06:56:43] <lefteris109> and i have a problem
[06:56:53] <RikusW> megal0maniac: http://www.mantech.co.za/Stock.aspx?Query=sunonand
[06:57:04] <megal0maniac> Fans?
[06:57:14] <RikusW> nice replacement fans, I'd like to have a vapobearing in my pc psu
[06:57:18] <RikusW> should be quit
[06:57:29] <megal0maniac> Yeah, I've checked them out. They're pretty good
[06:58:28] <lefteris109> i want to take the adc measurement and show it on the lcd into a scale 0-5 volts but i cannot convert the scale into a readable format for the lcd
[06:59:46] <OndraSter> take a measurement
[06:59:52] <OndraSter> convert to dec
[06:59:59] <OndraSter> bcd
[07:00:26] <OndraSter> and show it
[07:00:31] <lefteris109> is there any function for that?
[07:00:49] <specing> lefteris109: no, we are not ##arduino
[07:00:55] <OndraSter> check atmel appnotes
[07:00:55] <OndraSter> lol
[07:00:59] <specing> anyway its pretty simple to do this
[07:01:07] <specing> set internal ref to 2.56V
[07:01:11] <lefteris109> i have
[07:01:20] <lefteris109> done that
[07:01:21] <specing> make a 2:1 resistor bridge from the target line
[07:01:28] <OndraSter> lefteris109, do you have any code to init and show characters on the display?
[07:01:52] <lefteris109> yes , the itoa () function
[07:02:01] <specing> ...
[07:02:05] <OndraSter> no
[07:02:07] <OndraSter> that is not what I ment
[07:02:12] <lefteris109> oh
[07:02:12] <OndraSter> that converts int to ascii
[07:02:31] <lefteris109> oups
[07:02:53] <dpy> why not sprintf?
[07:02:59] <specing> HEAVY
[07:03:02] <lefteris109> it doesnt work
[07:03:05] <lefteris109> i tried
[07:03:24] <OndraSter> sprintf calls itoa internally I bet
[07:03:43] <specing> I don't think so
[07:04:10] <dpy> if all he want's is to turn a butterfly in a voltage meter, he'll have plenty of space and speed available
[07:04:27] <lefteris109> with itoa() i can show on the lcd the scale 0-1024.BUT my teacher wants it in 0-5 scale...
[07:04:30] <megal0maniac_afk> V-Strom time :D
[07:04:44] <OndraSter> oh
[07:04:45] <OndraSter> well then
[07:04:48] <OndraSter> *5
[07:04:48] <specing> lefteris109: ever heard of the lovely thing called DIVISION?
[07:04:51] <OndraSter> /1024
[07:04:52] <OndraSter> :P
[07:04:55] <lefteris109> xaxa
[07:04:57] <dpy> lol
[07:05:01] <lefteris109> yes
[07:05:04] <dpy> this is basic math
[07:05:11] <lefteris109> but it gives decimal
[07:05:27] <megal0maniac_afk> Not in integers, it doesn't
[07:05:31] <megal0maniac_afk> Kbye
[07:05:45] <lefteris109> and i cannot show UNFORTUNATELY decimal on lcd
[07:05:57] <specing> You can't?
[07:05:57] <dpy> lefteris109: sure you can
[07:06:07] <dpy> lefteris109: ever heard of / and % ?
[07:06:15] <specing> Whos holding the gun on your head preventing you from doing it?
[07:06:20] <dpy> nice operators for that kind of stuff
[07:07:56] <lefteris109> (5v*adc_result)/1024 <=====gives decimal value
[07:08:09] <lefteris109> so
[07:08:41] <lefteris109> with sprintf i supposed to take the value i need in char
[07:09:21] <dpy> lefteris109: exactly how much generic programming experience do you have?
[07:10:44] <dpy> How about writing a small program in C that takes a number between 0-1024 and prints it as a decimal fraction between 0 and 5?
[07:11:00] <lefteris109> i used to program in assembly
[07:12:04] <lefteris109> yes even if i do that i cant find a way to show it on lcd
[07:12:10] <dpy> You don't even need a butterfly for that to solve this...
[07:12:46] <dpy> -sigh- 2.4GHz band is toooo crowded
[07:13:07] <dpy> my wifi keeps disconnecting
[07:14:03] <dpy> and I cound 28 access points in my vicinity... :/
[07:14:18] <dpy> count
[07:14:51] <lefteris109> well thanks for your time
[07:15:41] <dpy> lefteris109: break down your problem into smaller problems
[07:15:57] <dpy> 1) convert 0-1024 into decimal 0-5
[07:16:27] <dpy> 2) try to be able to print a decimal number 0-5 on the lcd. (Hard-code the decimal number)
[07:16:28] <lefteris109> that is the easy part
[07:16:39] <dpy> 1) and 2) can be solved in any order
[07:16:41] <lefteris109> for (1)
[07:17:41] <lefteris109> ok thanks goodbye
[07:17:41] <dpy> 2 doesn't sound that hard either
[07:17:43] <OndraSter> there is nothing like turning on radio and hearing one of your favourite trance tracks!
[07:17:53] <dpy> OndraSter: which one?
[07:17:56] <OndraSter> Matt Darey pres Urban Astronauts feat Kate Louise Smith - See The Sun
[07:18:08] * dpy spotifies
[07:18:09] <OndraSter> (I prefer vocal trance with a good female singer)
[07:18:18] <dpy> me too
[07:18:21] <OndraSter> Betsie Larkin has got a great voice :)
[07:19:23] <dpy> which version?
[07:19:31] <dpy> original mix or aurosonic remix?
[07:19:38] <OndraSter> not sure -- it is on radio in some mix
[07:19:43] <OndraSter> I just googled the lyrics :D
[07:21:11] <dpy> now playing the aurosonic remix (most popular on spotify)
[07:21:43] <dpy> I starred it, tnx!
[07:22:07] <OndraSter> :)
[07:22:13] <OndraSter> I have got many trance tracks in my favs on ytb :D
[07:22:36] <dpy> I'm hooked on spotify
[07:22:43] <dpy> it's so easy
[07:23:54] <OndraSter> :)
[07:23:59] <OndraSter> spotify does not work in CZE
[07:24:22] <dpy> that's too bad...
[07:24:25] <dpy> maybe in time
[07:24:57] <OndraSter> ;)
[07:25:01] <OndraSter> none of these services works here
[07:25:12] <OndraSter> I would like Xbox Music subscription, since it is $10-ish
[07:25:18] <OndraSter> plus it is integrated into my phoen
[07:25:19] <OndraSter> phone*
[07:26:21] <dpy> k
[07:26:37] <dpy> I've spotify syncing on all my devices too
[07:26:47] <dpy> but I've heard there is a better one
[07:26:59] <dpy> that lets you pause your track on one device
[07:27:02] <dpy> and resume on another
[07:27:10] <dpy> forgot the name
[07:29:44] <dpy> Does anyone know if these mosfets can be used for general purpose (PWMing of loads, logic level): http://bit.ly/119px8C
[07:30:12] <OndraSter> check the datasheet
[07:30:13] <dpy> I don't see a reason why now, but the datasheet explicitly states these are typically used for DC:DC synchronous conversion
[07:30:25] <dpy> now=not
[07:30:29] <OndraSter> you are interested in gate capacitance
[07:30:31] <OndraSter> Rdson
[07:30:35] <OndraSter> Vgs
[07:30:39] <dpy> yes, these are logic level
[07:30:43] <dpy> fast switching
[07:31:01] <dpy> can switch 30V, 10+ Amps
[07:31:08] <OndraSter> nice
[07:31:14] <dpy> more than I need generally
[07:31:14] <OndraSter> but these might be cheap chinese knockoffs
[07:32:05] <dpy> I generally regard it as: after hours extra production
[07:32:26] <dpy> typically those chinese factories produce extra batches for the black market
[07:33:56] <dpy> the price isn't that far off digikey price (except those are in quantities of 2,500)
[07:35:19] <OndraSter> oh damn, the TOSlink receiver requiers 5V power supply :(
[07:35:50] <OndraSter> nvm, found different one
[07:36:40] <twnqx> pretty large mosfets...
[07:36:57] <dpy> twnqx: you mean physically?
[07:36:59] <twnqx> yes
[07:37:13] <OndraSter> aren't there 2 per pack?
[07:37:13] <dpy> do you have some better alternatives?
[07:37:18] <dpy> no
[07:37:20] <OndraSter> oh
[07:37:32] <twnqx> i like my irlml5203/irlml2803
[07:37:44] <twnqx> but of course depends what you need
[07:38:13] <dpy> twnqx: what I'm looking for is small, cheap, logic level gate, fast switching
[07:38:28] <twnqx> small: check, cheap: check, logic level: check
[07:38:32] <twnqx> let me look at the data sheet
[07:39:00] <dpy> I'm going to PWM at 100kHz
[07:39:36] <twnqx> ok, juat 1A continues drain current
[07:40:33] <OndraSter> huh, how does look schematics symbol for a TOSlink receiver?
[07:40:52] <twnqx> 8ns turn-on, 11ns turn-off
[07:40:58] <twnqx> should be fast enough :P
[07:41:25] <dpy> twnqx: those irlml2803 are $10 a piece on ebay
[07:41:30] <twnqx> what
[07:41:57] <dpy> twnqx: I live in expensive europe, I have to get my stuff from china, or I'll pay my ass off
[07:42:17] <twnqx> they are 0.15€ in my regular show
[07:42:24] <twnqx> in .de
[07:42:36] <dpy> twnqx: shipping an empty box from .de to .nl costs $10
[07:42:54] <OndraSter> :D
[07:42:55] <dpy> shipping a box from .hk to .nl is free
[07:42:58] <OndraSter> yep
[07:43:00] <OndraSter> funny
[07:43:04] <dpy> I don't understand how it works either
[07:43:10] <OndraSter> ask hackvana
[07:43:12] <twnqx> they are 0.28€ at conrad.nl
[07:43:14] <specing> It is not free
[07:43:17] <twnqx> which is an electronics pharmacy
[07:43:47] <dpy> anyway, 1A is too small
[07:43:48] <twnqx> are you trying to tell me you have no cheap electronics shops in -nl? :S
[07:43:53] <dpy> twnqx: I know conrad
[07:43:56] <dpy> Conrad's cool
[07:44:04] <twnqx> they are expensive
[07:44:08] <dpy> I know
[07:44:14] <dpy> but it's the only thing we have
[07:44:19] <twnqx> ... really
[07:44:36] <dpy> I generally buy on on ebay from asia
[07:44:50] <dpy> or for special stuff, I occasionally order from .de
[07:44:55] <dpy> darisius
[07:44:57] <twnqx> i usually order from digikey
[07:45:28] <twnqx> free shipping from the US once you hit the magic 65€
[07:45:30] <dpy> I think I'll have to order from digikey or farnell soon
[07:45:43] <dpy> I want to get my hands on a bunch of ATtiny10s
[07:46:46] <twnqx> hm, only 11+ at my normal german supplier
[07:47:07] <dpy> Those at10s sound like a great companion to a bigger ATtiny
[07:47:18] <dpy> and you get two extra 16-bit hardware PWM channels
[07:47:30] <dpy> s/companion/companion chip/
[07:47:31] <twnqx> wow. there's really only conrad and digikey showing up for .nl :S
[07:47:50] <dpy> twnqx: yes.. -hence- ebay and china
[07:47:58] <twnqx> surprising, really
[07:48:09] <twnqx> there must be hundred of shops in .de
[07:48:16] <dpy> especially if you want only certain stuff and want to avoid 60euro price breaks
[07:48:19] <twnqx> especially around the AVR stuff
[07:49:28] <twnqx> so, who wants to join me writing an emulator for tricore cpus? :P
[07:49:32] <OndraSter> if only the tiny4/5/9/10 had hardware SPI :P
[07:49:45] <OndraSter> software SPI is not as fast
[07:50:01] <twnqx> depends on the clock speed and whether you can ignore the other pins
[07:50:08] <OndraSter> ;)
[07:50:09] <dpy> OndraSter: that's not really a problem for a companion chip
[07:50:23] <OndraSter> I would tell it "draw line there" and it would calculate and draw on the display :P
[07:50:32] <twnqx> in fact i think that the limits for hardware SPI on my 16mhz chip are slow
[07:50:47] <OndraSter> make a simple GPU out of it
[07:50:53] <twnqx> the flash rom could to 75mhz!
[07:51:00] <twnqx> +clok
[07:51:24] <OndraSter> haha
[07:51:34] <OndraSter> I switched to bigger external NOR flash with 104MHz quadSPI
[07:51:39] <OndraSter> or was it 80MHz quadSPI
[07:51:41] <OndraSter> either way - very fast
[07:51:58] <specing> quad SPI == MMC?
[07:52:52] <twnqx> OndraSter: i still wonder why i have a problem dumping the content of 500kbit CAN frames to a 2mbit rs232 port...
[07:53:01] <OndraSter> hmm
[07:53:12] <twnqx> but if i don't insert a 10ms delay every now and then i overrun my buffers :(
[07:53:24] <twnqx> every 256 frames atm
[07:53:58] <twnqx> i think the ft230X is just crap
[07:58:50] <twnqx> hm. 7€ for an insured letter to .nl from here
[07:59:17] <twnqx> 3.45 for a normal one
[07:59:54] <twnqx> dpy: but i'll admit that i occasionally buy chinese stuff via ebay as well ;)
[08:00:39] <dpy> :)
[08:00:55] * twnqx actually waits for a HC-05 atm
[08:01:20] <dpy> twnqx: apart for those mosfests being physically big, they do sound okayish as general purpose mosfets, right?
[08:01:44] <twnqx> sure, i just prefer smaller ones, but if 1A is not enough you better take larger ones
[08:01:44] <dpy> SO-8 isn't that big for DIY stuff, either, imho
[08:01:53] <twnqx> i think it is :S
[08:02:01] <dpy> heh
[08:02:05] * twnqx became a fan of tssop recently
[08:02:18] <GuShh_> twnqx must be japanese or something
[08:02:29] <dpy> well SSOT sounds better to my as well, but not at a price increase of 500%
[08:02:34] <dpy> my=me
[08:03:21] <twnqx> GuShh_: smallest i used so far was 0.4mm pitch
[08:03:25] <twnqx> that was... pushing it
[08:08:00] <OndraSter> I didn't go below 0.5mm QFN
[08:08:01] <OndraSter> 64pin
[08:09:33] <twnqx> http://imageshack.us/a/img829/1637/dsc00120tr.jpg smallest i ever put (it was an experiment, hence the double footprint)
[08:09:37] <twnqx> but i asked a friend to solder it :P
[08:10:08] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/4WKTPr
[08:10:08] <OndraSter> yay
[08:10:14] <twnqx> font height is 1mm, capacitors and stuff around it are 0402 :P
[08:10:15] <OndraSter> S/PDIF RCA+optical receiver
[08:10:27] <OndraSter> wow nice
[08:10:30] <OndraSter> I am 0603 person :D
[08:11:14] <twnqx> i'd straighten out the almost 90° turns
[08:11:34] <twnqx> but i guess it doesn't really matter
[08:11:51] <OndraSter> which ones?
[08:11:51] * twnqx is a strongly 45° routing person
[08:11:58] <twnqx> right of ic1
[08:12:04] <OndraSter> oh, those are just fron buttons
[08:12:05] <OndraSter> front
[08:12:07] <OndraSter> and two LEDs
[08:12:27] <dpy> you solder SO* package by hand?
[08:12:28] <OndraSter> they are twice 45°
[08:12:30] <OndraSter> very closely
[08:12:30] <twnqx> it's just optics :P
[08:12:44] <twnqx> dpy. i solder everything by hand
[08:12:58] <twnqx> i don't have an oven, or i'd be switched to BGA for some time
[08:13:04] <dpy> I prefer the sparkfun way
[08:13:31] <twnqx> which is?
[08:15:28] <OndraSter> hotplate?
[08:15:51] <dpy> yes
[08:16:07] <dpy> it's cheap and dead easy
[08:16:13] <dpy> and fast
[08:16:16] <OndraSter> btw I went into so much trouble with two separate 3.3V regulators - one for the digital part of the circuit (xmega, S/PDIF receiver, display) and analog (stereo DAC)
[08:16:19] <twnqx> i'd be afraid of heating the PCB too muhc
[08:16:28] <dpy> and the results are super professionally looking
[08:16:41] <twnqx> also you need to have stencils, no?
[08:17:00] <dpy> no, for small batches you can use solder paste with syrince
[08:17:02] <dpy> syringe
[08:17:03] <twnqx> oh, and i don't use leaded tin
[08:17:30] <twnqx> but 20°C more won't be breaking it, i guess
[08:17:51] <twnqx> i wonder how far my IR preheater can take it
[08:17:52] <twnqx> hmmmm
[08:18:46] <twnqx> hm.
[08:18:52] <twnqx> you really made me curious now :S
[08:18:55] * RikusW was just reading from PORTC instead of PINC :S
[08:19:07] <twnqx> RikusW: happens to me all the time
[08:19:12] <dpy> https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/59
[08:19:12] <RikusW> heh
[08:19:20] <RikusW> twnqx: ex pic programmer ?
[08:19:39] <twnqx> no, i just find the concept too confusing
[08:20:16] <RikusW> wait till you meet the xmega port registers...
[08:20:48] <dpy> It would've helped if they'd named those: POUTC and PINC
[08:21:30] <dpy> PORTC cognitivelly implies I/O
[08:21:36] <dpy> imho
[08:22:37] <dpy> twnqx: This is funny: https://forum.sparkfun.com/viewtopic.php?t=2690
[08:24:12] <twnqx> "for 0402 components it's priceless"
[08:24:18] <twnqx> hello there, 0402 is trivial
[08:24:28] <dpy> twnqx: that's 2006
[08:24:30] <twnqx> i did 01005 out of curiosity
[08:24:47] <twnqx> that was a tad more troublesome
[08:25:47] <dpy> If you'd told anyone in 1985 that people would be hand soldering 0402 smd, you'd made a fool of yourself
[08:26:18] <twnqx> why
[08:26:30] <twnqx> i am using a regular 1.6mm tip for all of these
[08:26:34] <dpy> they wouldn't have believed you
[08:26:37] <twnqx> flat though
[08:26:40] <dpy> 1985!
[08:26:44] <OndraSter> RikusW, xmega!
[08:26:45] <OndraSter> :)
[08:26:47] <OndraSter> yep
[08:26:50] <OndraSter> OUT, DIR, PIN registers
[08:26:52] <dpy> time change
[08:26:54] <OndraSter> or was it only IN?
[08:26:55] <RikusW> just did some code in VS97 http://pastebin.ca/2362894
[08:27:09] <twnqx> they would probably have more of a problem believing you that you can manufacture components that small :P
[08:27:12] <RikusW> and connected it to IR led + photodiode
[08:27:31] <dpy> twnqx: let alone handle those
[08:27:48] <RikusW> so full debug capability without dragon :)
[08:28:15] <twnqx> neurosurgeons existed in 1985 already
[08:28:27] <twnqx> no big difference, except the worst case damage is less with electronics
[08:29:22] <twnqx> btw, how does your hotplate handle components on both dies? :P
[08:29:24] <twnqx> sides*
[08:29:55] <OndraSter> http://i.imgur.com/k4huCQv.png
[08:32:08] <megal0maniac_afk> RikusW: Stuggling to get the clock generator working on the U2S in ISP mode
[08:32:26] <dpy> twnqx: one sided only
[08:32:43] <dpy> twnqx: I keep components on one side only
[08:33:15] <RikusW> megal0maniac: using AS 4 5 6 ?
[08:33:19] <megal0maniac> 6
[08:33:21] <RikusW> it on B7
[08:33:22] <twnqx> i try to, but sometimes i fail because i don't want to hit the next price step at the pcb manufacturers :P
[08:33:25] <megal0maniac> Oh...
[08:33:40] <OndraSter> twnqx, I stuffed a lot onto 1 layer :P
[08:33:44] <megal0maniac> Duh. I somehow read B6 :)
[08:33:52] <RikusW> working now ? :)
[08:34:10] <dpy> you can have two layers
[08:34:18] <RikusW> OndraSter: what schematic is that ?
[08:34:20] <dpy> just don't put components on that layer
[08:34:24] <RikusW> (what for ? )
[08:34:25] <OndraSter> RikusW, my S/PDIF receiver :)
[08:34:29] <RikusW> ah
[08:34:30] <OndraSter> S/PDIF -> audio
[08:34:36] <OndraSter> that is what I ment, dpy
[08:34:44] <RikusW> what format is s/pdif ?
[08:34:47] <RikusW> uart like ?
[08:34:48] <twnqx> OndraSter: http://imageshack.us/a/img62/602/img0312mo.jpg
[08:34:49] <OndraSter> some... weird ass thing
[08:34:50] <OndraSter> no
[08:34:57] <megal0maniac> RikusW: Working. Sorry..
[08:35:14] <dpy> It also looks cleaner to me, imho
[08:35:18] <dpy> all components on one layer
[08:35:20] <OndraSter> :) twnqx
[08:35:29] <RikusW> all of us make mistakes, like me reading from PORT instead of PIN right now :-P
[08:35:48] <RikusW> just used U2S_Debug to quickly test an ir beam
[08:36:00] <RikusW> no need to even upload fw :)
[08:36:10] <OndraSter> RikusW, http://i.imgur.com/JSRB11k.png
[08:36:11] <OndraSter> board
[08:36:33] <OndraSter> just finished
[08:36:34] <OndraSter> with this
[08:36:39] <RikusW> nice
[08:37:21] <twnqx> OndraSter: i dare you to put that on one side without increasing PCB size :P
[08:37:21] <dpy> now I still haven't found a cheap SSOT SOT23 source of general purpose logic level mosfets (20V+ 3A+) in NL... -sigh-
[08:37:54] <dpy> only those SO-8 on ebay
[08:38:09] <OndraSter> twnqx, :P
[08:38:19] <OndraSter> why are serial SRAMs so expensive? 32kB one @ 1.12€ :/
[08:38:38] <twnqx> same price as the ones i used for my external ram
[08:38:50] <OndraSter> hmm
[08:39:51] <RikusW> OndraSter: how long did the layout take ?
[08:41:27] <OndraSter> board? huh
[08:41:34] <OndraSter> I did it once, then ripped half of the board apart and re-did it :)
[08:42:33] <LFSveteran> weird
[08:42:34] <LFSveteran> http://ww.domainredirector.com/i2c.png write
[08:42:34] <LFSveteran> http://ww.domainredirector.com/i2c2.png read
[08:42:57] <LFSveteran> with a read action, the address gets detected, with a write action it won't
[08:43:05] <megal0maniac> LFSveteran: Needs more w's
[08:43:13] <LFSveteran> no
[08:43:29] <LFSveteran> subdomain
[08:43:57] <megal0maniac> :)
[08:45:21] <LFSveteran> http://pastebin.com/9jCbNw3T
[08:45:42] <LFSveteran> & 0xFE abandons the read/write bit
[08:46:06] <LFSveteran> so it shouldn't matter if I want to read or write
[09:29:39] <MarkX> hi
[09:31:04] <OndraSter> hi
[09:34:11] <MarkX> Tom_itx: ping
[09:35:19] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: You are not wanted
[09:36:05] <MarkX> hahaha
[09:36:20] <MarkX> ive been using arduinos for a while
[09:36:24] <MarkX> and finally moved to AVR
[09:36:33] <MarkX> i thought i'd be good but there is a definite learning curve
[09:38:46] <twnqx> MarkX: it's ok if you can program PCs in normal languages, there's not that much difference
[09:38:54] <megal0maniac> MarkX: Tom_itx is definitely the man to speak to. He loves ardweenie
[09:39:15] <specing> ardweenie meinie moe
[09:39:42] <MarkX> twnqx: hehe yea but now i have to deal with hardware stuff like watchdog and cpu freq and bitwise operations :P
[09:39:46] * twnqx never got the arduino hype
[09:40:00] <twnqx> aren't they just presoldered AVRs?
[09:40:01] <twnqx> :S
[09:40:05] <MarkX> i think i've used bitwise stuff only in one program i've written
[09:40:10] <megal0maniac> twnqx: It's the IDE
[09:40:19] <MarkX> megal0maniac: heh hes really helpful
[09:40:28] <twnqx> mh
[09:40:37] <twnqx> ok, i am not the IDE type of guy
[09:40:45] <twnqx> i always find them more limiting than helpful
[09:41:02] <twnqx> and i haven't seen good ones since borland pascal/borland C :(
[09:41:34] <megal0maniac> twnqx: As an example, to print to a HD44780 LCD you use lcd.init(); lcd.print("Hello world!");
[09:41:52] <twnqx> and if i have different LCDs?
[09:41:57] <megal0maniac> It's a very stripped down "ide" but great for learning
[09:42:25] <MarkX> the processing language is nice to work with as well
[09:42:28] <twnqx> oh, i also am the very lowlevel kind of guy
[09:42:30] <MarkX> for newbies
[09:42:42] * twnqx wrote ASM on the commodore 128 when he was 12
[09:42:58] <MarkX> madness
[09:43:07] <specing> ASMASMSAMSMAMSMAMSDMAMSMSAMMSMMSMAMAMAMAMAMAMAAMAMAMAMAMMAMAMAAMAMMAMAMAAMMMAMAMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
[09:43:15] <twnqx> i don't write asm any more :P
[09:43:16] <OndraSter> lol
[09:43:29] <twnqx> except the occasional "nop"
[09:43:43] <megal0maniac> twnqx: Then you get different libraries that people cleverer than you wrote and it just works. It's a high-level starting block, since you learn the conventions and basic stuff
[09:43:58] <twnqx> people cleverer than me?
[09:44:04] <twnqx> where would i even find those?
[09:44:05] <twnqx> :D
[09:44:22] <megal0maniac> China
[09:44:48] <twnqx> economically cleverer, then.
[09:45:01] <megal0maniac> :)
[09:45:11] <megal0maniac> MarkX: Is there something specific you want to know?
[09:46:10] <MarkX> lots
[09:46:14] <MarkX> but it has more to do with C
[09:46:32] <megal0maniac> Because you haven't asked any questions yet :)
[09:46:58] <MarkX> well its more about C so i'm figuring it out by googling, figured i'd hang out here in the mean time :P
[09:48:17] <rue_bed> M=E/C^2
[09:48:34] <twnqx> i
[09:48:48] <twnqx> would like an m=ec²=m converter
[09:49:08] <twnqx> gold making for fun and profit.
[10:14:44] <megal0maniac> Hooray! My 7seg is doing NOTHING its supposed to
[10:14:54] <megal0maniac> I've never seen these characters in my life
[10:18:38] <twnqx> lol
[10:26:27] <RikusW> megal0maniac: sure you wired it up right ?
[10:27:15] <RikusW> megal0maniac: using U2S_Debug will save you a lot of time and effort on this one
[10:30:28] <megal0maniac> RikusW: It's the discreet logic (15 AND + 8 OR gates) version. Truth table time :)
[10:31:01] * megal0maniac should make a logic probe...
[10:33:17] <OndraSter> xboard has got a lot of IO channels :P
[10:38:11] <twnqx> hmmm in fact... i just AM writing asm :S
[10:40:43] <megal0maniac> Using the DP on the 7seg as a logic probe. Yay :)
[10:45:36] <RikusW> megal0maniac_afk: how about your logic analyzer then ?
[10:45:46] <damjan> does anyone know why <__vectors> starts at address 00000024 in my output elf file? I have avr-gcc 4.8 and avr-libc 1.8 on ArchLinux
[10:46:03] <megal0maniac_afk> Need to see it realtime. And the LA is too fast :)
[10:47:14] <damjan> and avr-binutils is 2.23.2-1
[10:47:46] <twnqx> wrong cputype defined?
[10:48:35] <damjan> -mmcu=attiny2313
[10:49:34] <MarkX> what is a macro in terms of AVR programming?
[10:51:05] <damjan> MarkX: a C macro?
[10:51:45] <MarkX> :O
[10:51:50] <MarkX> its C specific?
[10:52:01] <MarkX> didn't know that
[10:52:05] <MarkX> going to go google it now
[10:52:27] <damjan> MarkX: macros exists in several programming languages
[10:52:37] <damjan> I'm not sure what you're asking
[10:53:00] <damjan> but since you would most often program in C for avr, I guess you are interested in C macros
[10:53:14] <MarkX> well i just saw "These macros make setting the clock prescaler easier."
[10:53:43] <MarkX> so i figured macro's were something specifically to do with the avr chip (like the registers)
[10:53:55] <damjan> those are C macros probably
[10:53:59] <MarkX> ah ok
[10:54:03] <MarkX> i'll go read up on it
[10:54:05] <MarkX> thanks
[10:56:45] <Tom_itx> a macro is something you define
[10:57:17] <RikusW> #define
[10:57:48] <Tom_itx> #define UART_BAUD_CALC(UART_BAUD_RATE,F) ((F)/(UART_BAUD_RATE)/(16)-1)
[10:58:02] <Tom_itx> for example
[10:58:39] <damjan> so? any ideas where to look for my __vectors issue?
[10:58:50] <Tom_itx> #define bit_get(p,m) ((p) & (m))
[10:58:50] <Tom_itx> #define bit_set(p,m) ((p) |= (m))
[10:58:50] <Tom_itx> #define bit_clear(p,m) ((p) &= ~(m))
[10:58:55] <Tom_itx> for other example
[10:59:14] <Tom_itx> damjan why is it an issue?
[10:59:19] <Tom_itx> look in your part header file
[10:59:47] <damjan> Tom_itx: it's not correct
[11:00:00] <Tom_itx> where would you like it to start?
[11:00:13] <damjan> atmega328p also gives me __vectors that starts at 00000024
[11:00:19] <damjan> Tom_itx: it needs to start at 00000000
[11:00:34] <Tom_itx> your interrupt vectors?
[11:00:39] <damjan> yes
[11:00:40] <Tom_itx> i don't think so
[11:02:37] <Tom_itx> mmm i dunno
[11:04:15] <damjan> the problem is that this appeared sometime this past months
[11:04:51] <damjan> I have some programs that I've compiled earlier and they're showing correct __vectors
[11:05:52] <twnqx> you could downgrade your gcc for a starter
[11:05:56] <Tom_itx> what changed?
[11:06:00] <twnqx> my 4.7.2 doesn't do that
[11:06:26] <damjan> I'm suspecting the compiler
[11:06:32] <twnqx> probably i'd try binutils first though
[11:06:41] <twnqx> either linker or compiler
[11:07:07] <twnqx> tried avr-objdump to analyze the intermediate .elf and see what is there?
[11:07:47] <twnqx> i'd have good use for an attiny atm... all i need is a 50hz signal...
[11:09:11] <damjan> twnqx: yeah, that's how I see that __vectors is at 00000024
[11:09:17] <damjan> avr-objdump -S
[11:09:54] <twnqx> :/
[11:10:35] <OndraSter> twnqx, mains
[11:10:45] <twnqx> avr-libc 1.8, gcc 4.7.2, binutils 2.23.1 here
[11:12:16] <OndraSter> twnqx, I am still thinking - is your nickname abbreviation of something
[11:12:19] <twnqx> no
[11:12:46] <MarkX> if anyone from the prjc website is here, your how-to tips are awesome! thanks a lot!
[11:15:07] <Tom_itx> i doubt he hangs out here
[11:21:26] <langoliers> h
[11:36:32] <langoliers> anybody know where does avr-geany install itself?
[11:36:43] <langoliers> it says installing, and then done.
[11:36:53] <langoliers> no avr-geany anywhere
[11:38:07] <langoliers> http://sourceforge.net/projects/cdk4avr/files/cdk-avr-geany/
[11:38:51] <theBear> what's a geany ?
[11:38:58] <langoliers> it is an ide
[11:39:15] <langoliers> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geany
[11:39:35] <langoliers> i like it when it don't crash and go to infinite loop while highlighting
[11:39:48] <langoliers> though they really should make it be able to highlight function names.
[11:42:54] <theBear> speaking of crashing and looping <grin> i got this new tv a buddy found on the curb 90% fixed (still a few hiccups on a cold start, it'll be simple drifted or leaky caps or resistors, maybe some leakage on the hv leads tho i feel i was misled on that one) anyway, i can tune and change channels and stuff without a remote, but not comfortably browse or timer-record or anything... i'm thinking about bruteforcing it with lirc, maybe something simple like try
[11:42:55] <theBear> a billion ways to make it turnoff, noting if it does ANYTHING, then refining... how do you like my chances ? i already got a working lirc 'blaster' i made a few years back, would just have to workout a way to bruteforce in the 3 or 5 common codings methink
[11:43:19] <theBear> hmm, geany looks kinda cool
[11:43:58] <langoliers> i'm not in ts
[11:43:58] <theBear> funny not working... it's such a novelty-adventure doing a repair now, it used to be something i did 10 times a day without even thinking :)
[11:43:59] <langoliers> tvs
[11:44:14] <langoliers> a dvi monitor is fine for everything
[11:45:16] <langoliers> finding a problem in even a small board can be a bitch
[11:45:24] <theBear> lol, neither am I.... more of an irc behind the scenes guy <grin> but it's 1080p and 32", and both the projectors have been 'in service' for months now so the loungeroom has been somewhat quiet and dim... now friends can come over and watch movies and cartoons again
[11:46:17] <theBear> it can, but i done countless thousands of hours of it to feed and house myself over the last 15 years or so, and maybe 10 years before that just for fun while i was in school :) i can't work or walk that good, what else i gonna spend my time on ?
[11:46:53] <langoliers> just make a main borad for it then, and you can even sell them.
[11:47:19] <theBear> if i ever get this damned pc booting i'll even have 2 things with hdmi holes all of a sudden, and i been wondering how that works for years now :)
[11:47:59] <langoliers> consumer electronics was never about quality
[11:48:36] <theBear> huh ? for the tv ? i spose i could, their facebook page is a joke, person after person saying how their new tv died in .25-13 months, but i'm only worried about being able to sit on my couch and make it do stuff like tell me what is on next, or switch movies on a usb-something
[11:48:50] <langoliers> :)
[11:49:01] <langoliers> it may have a random function that makes it die after warranty over
[11:49:14] <langoliers> even if you never use it
[11:50:14] <langoliers> today i saw a new sony phone hanging at power on displaying the logo
[11:50:25] <theBear> heh, in some ways that'd be better, but judging from random web spares sites and descriptions of owners, and what i seen, they've just got a very poorly designed switcher/psu in there, seems about 2/3 of people get backlight related issues like i thought this had for the first half of today, and the rest just flat out die in the logic board somewhere :)
[11:50:32] <theBear> heh
[11:50:32] <langoliers> doing nothin else
[11:51:00] <langoliers> and it has an usb, but you can not update firmware with it
[11:52:05] <theBear> learned how to 'service' nokias last week, use those little pad-whatsits that hide behind the battery, or even simpler and 'cooler', run a bench psu and clips to where the battery should go, and various resistances (i suspect a little more testing would tell me voltages, but you know how forums are) to the 3rd pin set it to various test/flash modes that work over the regular usb cable :)
[11:52:42] <langoliers> a li.po is 4.20V fully charged
[11:52:54] <langoliers> it dropt to 4.15V after removing charge
[11:52:58] <langoliers> drops
[11:53:55] <theBear> sounds about right, but i'm talking the 3rd pin, traditionally it seems nokia use it either as a batt-temp-sense input or that + battery-type identifier, by using say, a 70k vs a 10k pulldown working against the temp sensor
[11:54:27] <langoliers> well the cell has 2 poles
[11:54:30] <theBear> http://gsmfaster.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/nokia-cable-to-force-phone-to-local.html?m=0 is a link i still got open for example
[11:54:49] <langoliers> the 3rd pin is some gagic of the protection circuit
[11:54:59] <langoliers> magic
[11:55:23] <theBear> i just kinda wired it up, but i been thinking a little cable 'ready to go' would be kinda cool... these days i can 'fix' just about any kind of phone/pda people bring to me for various reasons
[11:55:28] <langoliers> nokia is way better phone than a sony or a samsung.
[11:56:00] <theBear> mmm, i done a few little things like mic/speaker replacements/resolders in sony and samsung, but really seen VERY little of them in general, not sure i ever even made a call on one
[11:56:23] <langoliers> young girls play games with those.
[11:56:35] <langoliers> not much phone use of the phones
[11:58:24] <theBear> i been htc personally for a long time... ihad their first and 2nd ever phones, a good 5 years before they started putting their own name on them, the 2nd one lasted as an everyday phone for 8 years, and among other things fell over a storey onto a bitumen road out of my pocket, got squashed and moist and abused... it was AMAZING ! and the current one is pretty damned good too, tho it seems to be a design flaw having a ffc cable unprotected in a split-phon
[11:58:24] <theBear> e-in-half keyboard foldout hinge, found that out one day when i had a business card in my pocket and suddenly the front half of my phone didn't talk to the back half anymore :(
[12:12:32] <stanreg> Installing Atmel Studio -- which tries to install MS Visual Studio -- Which asks for a product key -- wtf!
[12:13:04] <theBear> heh
[12:13:31] <theBear> it's been a while, but i'm pretty sure you can get several visual-somethings free if you can navigate the nightmare that is the windows download site
[12:14:32] <OndraSter> stanreg, only if you launch it separately
[12:14:42] <OndraSter> by accident
[12:15:10] <stanreg> OndraSter: I launchend 'AtmelStudio-6.1.2440-beta.exe' which managed to download/install .Net components, VS, Atmel drivers :\
[12:15:45] <stanreg> I suppose you're saying that the product key is only prompted once you launch the application (MS VS)?
[12:17:19] <stanreg> VS 2010 Shell setup, spawned by the Atmel Studio setup: "To install, you must accept the license terms and enter a valid 25-character product key, where prompted."
[12:17:57] <stanreg> Well at least it's installing now... let's see if it can go all the way.
[12:24:14] <OndraSter> stanreg, the key must have been pre-filled
[12:24:18] <OndraSter> I don't remember that screen even
[12:24:31] <OndraSter> it asked for key when I accidentaly launched it
[12:24:35] <OndraSter> instead of my regular VS2012
[12:24:37] <stanreg> Gotcha
[12:25:04] <OndraSter> (because I have got both 2012 and 2010 for Windows Phone, so it overwrote who handles .c files)
[13:06:17] <pingec> what bo be the morst appropriate cable for longer ttl connections?
[13:06:27] <OndraSter> UTP?
[13:06:32] <OndraSter> well that is twisted pair
[13:06:34] <OndraSter> so no
[13:06:45] <OndraSter> I am going to use old telephone cable
[13:06:48] <OndraSter> for UART
[13:06:54] <OndraSter> and few mA 5V power
[13:07:22] <pingec> what about STP ?
[13:09:46] <theBear> erm, straight ttl you'd probably want some hi freq shielded, twisted pair is largely useless without soem form of differential/undiff. at either end
[13:10:31] <theBear> also if it's fast (hmm, ttl probly not THAT fast) you might choose to only use half a pair rather than a paralleled pair in stp or similar, to keep capacitance down
[13:10:37] <pingec> why, will twisted pair perform worse?
[13:10:41] <pingec> usually it's cheaper
[13:11:00] <theBear> shouldn't perform worse, and cheaper is a good point, that's why half a network cable is running one of my security cams in the next room :)
[13:11:09] <pingec> aha
[13:11:29] <pingec> sure i'd use only half of a pair
[13:12:16] <theBear> over most 'pretty high' freqencies cat5/6 will look like roughly 100-110r, that might be a little low for unbuffered ttl, but then again, that's FAST.. how long/fast you talking about ?
[13:12:30] <theBear> and do you care about transition speed/angle very much ?
[13:12:46] <pingec> I need 12 meters
[13:12:49] <pingec> any speed
[13:13:47] <theBear> meh, just about anything should do for that, even unshielded fig8 :) ttl is pretty robust noise wise, you gotta have a whole 2v or so noise on a signal to false trigger it, so long as you don't have hi freq noise and stupid slow transitions
[13:14:32] <pingec> that's great to hear :D
[13:15:51] <theBear> tho probly does make sense to treat it like a transmission line whatever cable you use, i'm bad at big maths like that, but 12meters is maybe err, 20pixels at standard svga speeds, which would be err, well, lets just say less than ideal
[13:16:15] <theBear> but that's easy, couple resistors and yer good
[13:22:17] <pingec> Should I add some diodes to the cable to protect the connected devices from any induced voltage?
[13:25:23] <theBear> suppose it can't hurt, but you'd need something pretty damned serious going on nearby to make more than 5v across a cable that length
[13:25:44] <pingec> ok, just checking
[13:27:33] <theBear> also remember avr have clamp diodes both ways on all i/o pins, so a little series resistance makes them pretty bulletproof
[14:05:15] <langoliers> pingec<= cat-5e can do 1Gbps upto 10m
[14:06:01] <langoliers> but if you want video over it, you will lose color data
[14:06:18] <langoliers> they used to do conversion in that case
[14:21:35] <OndraSter> does anybody know if mouser.com has got any usable XML search and export?
[14:24:50] <OndraSter> if I try downloading the file http://cz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Xicon/301-10-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7YV2PaTmgAae5lVa3ZT9SMEM%3d
[14:24:52] <OndraSter> directly
[14:24:53] <OndraSter> in C#
[14:24:56] <OndraSter> it returns 403
[14:25:02] <OndraSter> no idea why
[14:25:30] <pingec> user agent perhaos=
[14:25:34] <pingec> *perhaps
[14:25:36] <langoliers> cookies ?
[14:25:40] <OndraSter> it should identify as IE
[14:25:41] <langoliers> wget user agent ? ;)
[14:25:48] <OndraSter> cookies.. when I open it in IE it loads fine
[14:26:01] <OndraSter> Imma try it through wget
[14:26:17] <langoliers> use --user-agent="firefox 12"
[14:26:34] <langoliers> superadmins shitlist wget*
[14:26:35] <OndraSter> I am not using wget normally
[14:26:38] <OndraSter> I am using WebClient in C#
[14:26:47] <OndraSter> it works in wget on linux though
[14:26:50] <OndraSter> why doesn't it like me :(
[14:27:04] <OndraSter> let's set user agent
[14:27:09] <pingec> try sniffing the connection
[14:27:09] <langoliers> because you give it a hint
[14:27:25] <pingec> http://fiddler2.com/
[14:28:09] <OndraSter> yay
[14:28:11] <OndraSter> set my user agent to
[14:28:12] <OndraSter> Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) Presto/2.12.388 Version/12.15
[14:28:14] <OndraSter> and it downloaded
[14:28:20] <OndraSter> now to force czech language
[14:28:22] <langoliers> like magic
[14:28:31] <OndraSter> or english
[14:29:05] <OndraSter> cs-CZ,cs;q=0.9,en;q=0.8
[14:29:07] <OndraSter> works like a magic
[14:30:27] <langoliers> set it to "internet explorer 1.0 (mac os)" to show you are a cool dude
[14:39:10] <OndraSter> :D
[14:39:11] <pingec> haha
[14:53:56] <twnqx> <langoliers> pingec<= cat-5e can do 1Gbps upto 10m <- 100m
[14:53:57] <twnqx> or more
[14:54:12] <twnqx> at least the 40m cables into my basement have no problems
[14:55:06] <Casper> if they make the cable right
[14:55:42] <twnqx> cat5e is a standard
[14:56:19] <Casper> yes, but custom mades cable may not be proprelly done
[14:56:24] <langoliers> will it copy at 100MB/s rate ?
[14:56:28] <Casper> and people mishandling the cables can cause issues
[14:56:34] <twnqx> langoliers of cause
[14:56:47] <twnqx> a bit more, the usual 112 of gbit
[14:56:53] <Casper> langoliers: I do 40-60MB/s from my pc to my ps3, the hd can't do more on the ps3
[14:57:06] <langoliers> MB/s is megabytes/s btw.
[14:57:14] <twnqx> >_>
[14:57:18] <twnqx> of course, what else
[14:57:28] <twnqx> if my 1gbit would to only 100mbit i'd complain
[14:57:47] <Casper> twnqx: do you complain about usb2?
[14:57:51] <langoliers> for 100m? haha
[14:58:03] <twnqx> yes, that's the official spec length
[14:58:18] <langoliers> lemme read it again
[14:58:51] <twnqx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabit_Ethernet#1000BASE-T
[14:59:56] <twnqx> even on cat5 without e
[15:00:18] <langoliers> Cat5e: Gigabit Ethernet up to 100 meters 10 Gigabit Ethernet up to 45 meters
[15:00:20] <langoliers> hah ok
[15:07:17] <twnqx> Casper: no, since usb2.0 is half duplex and has tons of overhead due to bus sharing and small packetizing
[15:07:31] <twnqx> usb 2.0 sucks, though.
[15:07:36] <Casper> yes it does
[15:07:47] <Casper> but even half duplex shouln't be half speed
[15:07:56] <twnqx> it's more the overhead
[15:08:11] <twnqx> like ATM :P
[15:10:21] <Horologium> ATM rocks!
[15:10:24] <Horologium> if it's setup right.
[15:10:41] <twnqx> it's still terribly inefficient.
[15:34:33] <jadew> what's the topic?
[15:38:27] <Tom_itx> bits n bytes
[15:40:57] <jadew> oh, I like those
[15:42:07] <jadew> weren't we talking bits and bytes 12 hours ago tho?
[15:42:27] <Tom_itx> worth discussing at length
[15:42:41] <jadew> indeed
[15:42:44] <Tom_itx> about a bits in length
[15:42:51] <Tom_itx> about 8 bits in length
[15:43:44] <jadew> as in 1111111 or 00000000?
[15:47:34] * Horologium prefers nibbles
[15:48:05] <jadew> have you guys played with fpga's so far? what's a good devboard to get started with them?
[15:48:26] <langoliers> guys on #fpga play them much
[15:48:34] <Tom_itx> i used a digilent board
[15:49:52] <jadew> I need an introductory video to fpgas
[15:50:02] <Tom_itx> why a video?
[15:50:03] <jadew> I'm not really sure what exactly they can do
[15:50:12] <twnqx> EVERYTHING
[15:50:14] <Tom_itx> just about anything
[15:50:17] <jadew> well, something to tell me what they're good for
[15:50:22] <Tom_itx> did you see that tutorial i posted for you?
[15:50:25] <theBear> but they're just chips, a video isn't gonna make it any clearer :)
[15:50:27] <jadew> no
[15:50:36] <theBear> they just kinda sit there :)
[15:50:37] <Tom_itx> jadew, they are in the controller that runs my mill
[15:51:00] <Tom_itx> very nice boards i might add
[15:51:16] <twnqx> they allow you to "write logic" - gates and flip flops, combined
[15:51:16] <Tom_itx> http://www.mesanet.com/
[15:51:44] <Tom_itx> jadew, http://tutor.awce.com/
[15:52:21] <theBear> and on top of allowing you to arbitrarily write up logic, the programming language(s) allow you to do fancy stuff, kinda like a function equivalent, only in logic
[15:52:43] <jadew> oh really? so there is programming involved
[15:52:57] <twnqx> yes. in one of two languages of your choice, verilog or vhdl
[15:53:00] <jadew> so basically your code rearanges the gates?
[15:53:01] <theBear> wtf ? you don't just look at them !
[15:53:08] <theBear> conceptually yeah
[15:53:12] <tzanger> jadew: I did an aerospace FPGA design. Cyclone IV, PCIe, fun stuff
[15:53:30] <tzanger> jadew: DE0-nano is pretty cheap and has I/O and memory
[15:53:44] <twnqx> physically the compiler breaks down your code into lots small logic blocks of four input - one output
[15:53:46] <theBear> in reality when it 'compiles' it handles all the tricky bits (think about it, arbitrarily connecting/building logic in a physical chip isn't exactly 'neat')
[15:53:52] <twnqx> (or similar, depending on your chip)
[15:53:57] <Tom_itx> jadew, http://www.asic-world.com/verilog/veritut.html
[15:54:03] <jadew> I thought you might have to design the gates arrangement in some program and that the programming would run on top of some virtual cpu
[15:54:13] <twnqx> no
[15:54:20] <twnqx> there are tools that allow you to "click gates"
[15:54:24] <theBear> well, you COULD imagine it happened like that, but that's needless and silly
[15:54:32] <twnqx> but i haven't seem them around since university days :P
[15:54:33] <Tom_itx> you can make a �C in an fpga
[15:54:57] <theBear> that's what makes them so 'powerful' ... you can make HUGE arrays of virtual logic that don't need any 'processing' by something like a cpu
[15:54:59] <Tom_itx> it's open to your magination
[15:55:06] <theBear> they just kinda logic away
[15:55:14] <jadew> alright, so programming a fpga is just as programming a mcu
[15:55:19] <twnqx> no, not quite
[15:55:23] <jadew> the only difference being that the code is ran on hardware
[15:55:25] <theBear> not quite... find some code and you should see
[15:55:29] <theBear> maybe a few flowcharts too
[15:55:37] <twnqx> yeah, you have to think in logic
[15:55:37] <theBear> the code really describes the hardware more than runs on it
[15:55:41] <Tom_itx> jadew, sorta.. you still need to synthesize the hardware
[15:55:46] <Tom_itx> and map the pins etc
[15:55:55] <twnqx> ah, that's the smallest part
[15:56:02] <Horologium> twnqx, think of an fpga as building a circuit with code....
[15:56:10] <jadew> yeah, I need to read more on this, it sounds pretty cool
[15:56:17] <theBear> it IS cool
[15:56:18] <Horologium> like, making hardware in code....
[15:56:19] <twnqx> Horologium: i wrote my diploma thesis about fpga design ;)
[15:56:26] <Horologium> err.. jacekowski
[15:56:32] <Horologium> err.... jadew
[15:56:36] <jadew> heh
[15:56:39] <Horologium> sorry,,,looked at wrong person..
[15:56:59] <jadew> I guess I need to find a dev board
[15:56:59] <theBear> and these days the entry barriers are LOW, like when avr came about after silly expensive basic stamps or big discrete old 6800? and 8086 style 'computers'
[15:57:31] <Horologium> hehe
[15:57:37] <Horologium> I still play with 68000 boards.
[15:57:39] <twnqx> and all the vendors giving out the dseign software for free
[15:58:05] <Horologium> bought a baker's dozen of them for $1.00 each...complete with proto area, ram, processor, i/o gear and all.
[15:58:07] <jadew> any dev boards recommendations?
[15:58:38] <twnqx> i am the xilinx kind of guy, so i'd say look for cheap spartan 3 boards with a bit of IO
[15:59:06] <jadew> I will, thanks
[15:59:06] <twnqx> pcie-boards to add to your pc will up the complexity a lot
[15:59:54] <twnqx> (and the price, too... i still have a 1k$ virtex 5 board around)
[16:00:45] <twnqx> meh i can't find the flow opener for my cpu emulator :X
[16:04:18] <stanreg> Atmel studio: I have an ISR that should fire when the USART RX is complete. I am trying to simulate an incoming RX. I have interrupts enabled, "UCSRB.7 – RXCIE: RX Complete Interrupt Enable" enabled, and I manually click-enable "UCSRA.7 – RXC: USART Receive Complete". That should make the simulator go to the ISR. Yet, it does not. Any ideas?
[16:04:41] <twnqx> global interrupts enabled?
[16:04:55] <twnqx> ah yes, first part. ignore.
[16:05:47] <jadew> why don't you try it on the real hardware?
[16:05:58] <Horologium> no clue here....that software won't run on my computer.
[16:07:34] <stanreg> jadew: Trying to debug :)
[16:07:54] <jadew> led debugging :)
[16:08:07] <twnqx> or seri- wait.
[16:08:36] <langoliers> jadew<= an fpga is a field programmable logic gate array, you define macros of logic functions in them
[16:08:40] <stanreg> I have an stk500 around. Do you debug with those?
[16:09:03] <twnqx> but since i'm clueless about the mentioned software, i can only guess a) uart receive circuitry enabled? b) does setting that bit even trigger an interrupt? i'd have thought you have to actually receive something
[16:09:17] <jadew> langoliers, yeah, it seems that way, I'm gonna look for a chip I like and then I'm gonna see if I can find a dev board for it
[16:09:39] <twnqx> fpgas i like are more expensive than my car :/
[16:09:46] <langoliers> xc2c32a is some small cpld for example, or the altera max v
[16:09:48] <jadew> twnqx, as long as the interrupt flag is on, it should fire the interrupt
[16:09:58] <langoliers> those have built in memory
[16:10:00] <twnqx> bah cplds
[16:10:02] <twnqx> boring :P
[16:10:10] <stanreg> AH. I might have something missing.. Just noticed this little part.. Let me check.. >> "If the receiver is disabled, the receive buffer will be flushed and consequently the RXC bit will become zero."
[16:10:15] <langoliers> well these are like $2 :P
[16:10:45] <twnqx> http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/XC7V2000T-G2FLG1925E/XC7V2000T-G2FLG1925E-ND/3981901
[16:11:00] <twnqx> stanreg: so my guess a) :P
[16:11:09] <twnqx> @ jadew
[16:11:30] <twnqx> most expensive IC iÄve ever seen
[16:11:51] <jadew> I don't read german, but does that say 37k / piece?
[16:11:55] <twnqx> yes
[16:12:04] <jadew> what the hell does it do?
[16:12:12] <twnqx> it's an FPGA :P
[16:12:30] <twnqx> it does what you tell it!
[16:12:38] <jadew> yeah, but what makes it so special?
[16:12:41] <jadew> speed maybe?
[16:12:48] <megal0maniac_afk> It has 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 gates
[16:13:08] <twnqx> size, yes
[16:13:19] <jadew> interresting
[16:13:35] <twnqx> also probably tons of highspeed transceivers in the several gbuit/s range
[16:13:39] <twnqx> and 1200 io pins
[16:13:40] <jadew> well, I can't find any fpga that fits my definition of cheap
[16:13:51] <twnqx> what would be cheap for you?
[16:14:04] <megal0maniac> There's the $55 Xula board?
[16:14:05] <jadew> $3
[16:14:09] <megal0maniac> Hahaha!
[16:14:23] <jadew> the board can be a bit more expensive
[16:14:24] <stanreg> twnqx: Yep. But UCSRB.RxEN is enabled all right :\
[16:14:27] <jadew> but the chip has to be cheap
[16:14:35] <langoliers> jadew<= the ones i wrote are $1-$2
[16:14:52] <jadew> langoliers, will check them out, thanks
[16:15:33] <langoliers> the macroblock type is somewhat limited, and the max v type is more flexible
[16:15:40] <langoliers> and more like an fpga
[16:15:55] <twnqx> http://www.ebay.de/itm/XILINX-XC3S200-FPGA-module-FPGA-kit-Development-board-SPARTAN-3-/271103080170?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1f00b6ea
[16:15:59] <twnqx> 25$ from estonia :X
[16:16:38] <jadew> that looks nice, let me see how much the chip costs
[16:17:02] <twnqx> beware that you will need jtag for programming
[16:17:16] <jadew> I'm sure I can make a programmer
[16:17:24] <twnqx> sure, ft2232h will do
[16:17:36] <jadew> hmm, the chip seems to be more expensive than the board
[16:17:48] <twnqx> most fpgas are also volatile (sram based)
[16:17:58] <megal0maniac> I really like this one http://www.xess.com/prods/prod048.php
[16:19:00] <twnqx> cute
[16:19:09] <megal0maniac> Pretty well priced, compact and complete
[16:19:19] <megal0maniac> There's the Polipo as well, but this is... nicer
[16:19:26] <megal0maniac> Brb!
[16:20:14] <twnqx> "FPGAs!? Now What? (Tutorial)" lol
[16:20:15] <jadew> seems to come with the same chip
[16:20:21] <jadew> I guess that one is quite common, eh?
[16:20:31] <twnqx> x3cs200 is a neat chip to start
[16:20:41] <twnqx> decent capacity to do most things
[16:20:57] <twnqx> relative affordable (orders of magnitude less than the one linked!)
[16:22:30] <Tom_itx> http://digilentinc.com/
[16:23:13] <Tom_itx> the one i got had 7seg leds buttons etc
[16:23:43] <jadew> those boards aren't cheap
[16:23:49] <Tom_itx> no
[16:23:58] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/xilinx1.jpg
[16:24:05] <Tom_itx> pretty small
[16:24:23] <twnqx> lol socket
[16:24:28] <twnqx> spartan 2?
[16:24:29] <Tom_itx> pretty old
[16:24:43] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/xilinx2.jpg
[16:24:46] <jadew> looks nice
[16:24:55] <twnqx> uhhh pre-spartan
[16:25:06] <Tom_itx> probably 10+yrs old
[16:25:24] <Tom_itx> maybe more
[16:25:33] <twnqx> says (c)2001 on the pcb ;)
[16:26:14] <langoliers> an fpga can directly measure frequency without a divider upto 100MHz-400MHz
[16:26:23] <langoliers> and display
[16:26:51] <twnqx> all just a question of price
[16:27:24] <Horologium> when I win the lottery I'll buy each of you a 500 dollar fpga dev board.
[16:27:33] <Tom_itx> thank you
[16:27:34] <langoliers> ^^
[16:27:39] <jadew> yey
[16:27:48] <Tom_itx> just send me the $500 though
[16:27:49] <jadew> then I'm gonna wait
[16:27:53] <Tom_itx> if it's all the same to you
[16:28:19] <jadew> I don't think I'm ready to use $20 worth of chips in my projects, don't think I really need it either
[16:28:26] <Tom_itx> if you won the lottery would you tell anyone?
[16:28:29] <langoliers> 200 of the $2 fpgas would be nice too :)
[16:28:43] <jadew> I suppose it's good to know about them and what they can do, in case I face some problem I can't solve with a mcu
[16:29:05] <Tom_itx> they do parallel processing rather well
[16:29:07] <RikusW> http://www.fpga4fun.com/
[16:29:41] <jadew> thanks RikusW
[16:37:43] <langoliers> for example, you can put a microcontroller in an fpga and add custom instructions too
[16:37:58] <langoliers> and i'm still on topic ^^
[16:38:40] <jadew> would it be as fast at the same clock as the emulated one?
[16:39:32] <langoliers> hmm, fpgas can do 300MHz 400MHz logic, but instructions are more complex, not sure how fast will it work
[16:40:03] <jadew> one thing I'd probably consider an FPGA for is to create a fast ramdac
[16:40:56] <langoliers> you could make some complex function like md5sum, and make it parallel, get high speed
[16:41:18] <megal0maniac> Horologium: I'm holding you to that
[16:41:18] <langoliers> sha256sum even
[16:41:24] <jadew> yeah, that's not really what gets me off :)
[16:41:36] <langoliers> encryption?
[16:42:04] <jadew> at the moment I seem to enjoy building my own test equipment and I could use a function generator
[16:42:20] <jadew> I suppose if I could make a really fast dac with an fpga, I might consider it
[16:42:43] <jadew> like if I could plot the wave in memory and the fpga would spit it out really fast
[16:42:43] <OndraSter> has somebody developed an application that would keep track of your BOM, you would provide it links and it would download the prices from Farnell/Mouser/... and you'd enter "ok, now I want to buy pieces for 100 boards." and it will calculate everything etc
[16:43:23] <jadew> OndraSter, shouldn't be too hard to do it
[16:43:26] <OndraSter> nope
[16:43:40] <megal0maniac> Do mouser/farnell/digikey have APIs?
[16:43:47] <jadew> start an xcel file, add the components and links in there
[16:43:59] <jadew> and then have a script parse it and calculate whatever you need
[16:44:04] <OndraSter> megal0maniac, mouser has none
[16:44:08] <jadew> you don't need APIs
[16:44:08] <OndraSter> jadew, :P
[16:44:17] <OndraSter> yeah, I regex'd the shit out of mouser
[16:46:44] <jadew> megal0maniac, do you have that xula board?
[16:46:53] <megal0maniac> jadew: No.
[16:46:58] <megal0maniac> Could never justify it
[16:47:24] <jadew> same here, but I'd love to try some stuff on an fpga, just to be aware of what it can do
[16:47:25] <megal0maniac> Can't even do much useful stuff with at atmega yet, let alone an fpga
[16:48:08] <OndraSter> http://www.cdecl.org/
[16:49:28] <langoliers> OndraSter<= i'm just lazy, write an email with 1000 things i want, and submit
[16:50:09] <langoliers> somebody will have to count and cut them to size to me anyway
[16:51:45] <OndraSter> lol langoliers
[16:52:43] <RikusW> http://read.pudn.com/downloads161/doc/729268/PCI_Express_Base_11.pdf
[16:52:53] * RikusW didn't know that was public :)
[16:54:43] <OndraSter> :)
[16:55:19] * RikusW just discovered some true facts about ducks :-P
[16:55:45] <Horologium> OndraSter, that site doesn't work for squat...doesn't recognize int a,b; gives syntax error.
[16:55:49] <Casper> like?
[16:56:07] <RikusW> its on YT
[16:56:17] <langoliers> OndraSter<= i can give a tip, they like if you order packaging quantities like 75, 100, 2000 depending on part
[16:57:47] <RikusW> last part is the best, (or worse ?) :-P
[16:57:53] <OndraSter> langoliers, if you order whole reel or tray, yes :P
[17:04:54] <megal0maniac> Goodnight all. Router is getting flashed :)
[17:05:05] <jadew> night
[17:20:03] <langoliers> okey who does pre-baking here? ;)
[17:20:21] <langoliers> hi-rel things?
[17:20:41] <Horologium> only for twice baked potatoes and properly done fried chicken.
[17:20:49] <langoliers> nice
[17:21:35] <langoliers> OndraSter, tzanger, Tom_itx, theBear ?
[17:22:43] <OndraSter> I do not
[17:22:49] <OndraSter> only for food
[17:22:51] <OndraSter> just as Horologium
[17:23:03] <megal0maniac> That was quick
[17:23:14] <OndraSter> THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
[17:23:19] <OndraSter> *puts on glasses*
[17:24:11] * megal0maniac slaps OndraSter
[17:24:19] <megal0maniac> (in a manly way)
[17:24:21] <OndraSter> I like saying that line on mumble
[17:24:22] <OndraSter> haha
[17:25:10] <langoliers> Horologium<= a little mustard, salt?
[17:25:18] <langoliers> maybe flux?
[17:26:32] * twnqx never baked any components, dry signs gone or not
[17:26:36] <langoliers> i know some computer hacking technicians who likes to be exposed to flux all day
[17:26:44] <twnqx> but i don't reflow, otherwise i would
[17:27:06] <langoliers> no matter.
[17:27:26] <langoliers> the thing will heat up anyway
[17:28:11] <tzanger> langoliers: for real assembly you follow baking procedures for parts. for my own shit I never do
[17:28:41] <langoliers> stress testing?
[17:28:56] <tzanger> some plastics really absorb moisture which is why you want to bake it out of them before soldering... if they have moisture trapped in them and you hit reflow temps you can get little pockets of steam that damage the part
[17:29:07] <tzanger> same reason why you bake your metals before melting them
[17:29:40] <langoliers> oh i'm sure metal plates will not be damaged by a little moisture
[17:29:41] <tzanger> water trapped in odd-shaped steel junk can explode at 600C and spray you with molten metal. that's a sure way to ruin your day
[17:31:05] <langoliers> don't do it in the kitchen in underpants then
[17:31:19] <Horologium> same goes for frying bacon.
[17:31:23] <langoliers> :)
[17:31:50] <langoliers> i did that in an IR oven and it was fine, cut to thin slices
[17:33:14] <langoliers> 5mm is not a too deep bacon to trap water
[19:03:21] <edboogie2011> do you need to use an opamp to measure the temperature using a NTC thermistor? I used just a voltage divider with one resistor..
[19:03:52] <edboogie2011> the thermistor is on a offboard probe, 2 feet away
[19:07:58] <Horologium> an opamp helps.
[19:08:15] <edboogie2011> what is its purpose?
[19:08:17] <Horologium> for a thermistor, you probably don't need it.
[19:08:25] <Horologium> I read that as a thermocouple for some reason.
[19:08:43] <Horologium> so, for a thermistor, probably do not need an opamp.
[19:09:58] <edboogie2011> a guy using my circuit, gets a normal temperature reading for 2 months almost, and then all of a sudden it went from 20 degrees celsius to 66 degrees celsius.. this phenomenon has been observed on a couple other user too, anybody have an idea? I am just using a voltage divider to ADC to read the temperature
[19:11:10] <edboogie2011> is it self heating maybe?
[19:12:31] <inflex> got a cap between the ADC input and GND?
[19:12:56] <inflex> Maybe it needs something like a low-pass, ( cap + resistor )
[19:13:18] <Horologium> have you tested the sensor itself to see if it is still right?
[19:13:42] <Horologium> I'm betting there's quite a bit of current, relatively, flowing through that thing.
[19:13:59] <edboogie2011> Horologium: It happened in 3 different cases, with three different people
[19:14:02] <Horologium> it could get damaged over time I would think.
[19:14:14] <inflex> If it drops below freezing, yes
[19:14:28] <Horologium> again, test the sensor itself and compare to a new one....like, put an ohmmeter on it and put it in known temperatures.
[19:14:50] <edboogie2011> yeah, only way to do that is to get the probes back
[19:14:58] <Horologium> wrap it in plastic and submerge it in water and ice mixture to know a good 0C temp and see if it reads the same as a new one.
[19:15:21] <edboogie2011> it is already integrated into a plastic probe
[19:15:22] <Horologium> well, yeah, one does need to get the bad one and be able to test against a good one to be able to figure out what happened.
[19:15:43] <edboogie2011> yes very true
[19:16:04] <Horologium> the way I used to test temp sensors was with boiling water and ice/water mix...
[19:16:05] <edboogie2011> I can't see a thermistor going bad from being good in 2 months
[19:16:07] <edboogie2011> or less
[19:16:17] <Horologium> giving me two known temps...boiling water is at 100C at sea level.
[19:16:36] <edboogie2011> boiling water is not hot enough to melt most plastic right?
[19:16:39] <edboogie2011> like ABS?
[19:16:49] <Horologium> I can if there is too much current through it..those things aren't meant to have a lot of current through them constantly.
[19:16:59] <Horologium> ABS will not melt at 100C.
[19:17:19] <Horologium> might get soft and deform some but I don't think it will do that even...not sure what the melting point of it is really.
[19:17:20] <edboogie2011> if I am using a 0603 resistor on the other end of the voltage divider, doesn't that limit the current passing through the thermistor?
[19:17:42] <Horologium> what is the value of that resistor?
[19:17:45] <edboogie2011> 10k
[19:17:48] <inflex> not a chance
[19:17:51] <tzanger> how much current do you want to pass through a thermistor??
[19:18:06] <inflex> I use 1K+PT100 (100R) combo and don't even have issues.
[19:18:26] <edboogie2011> yeah somebody told me another opamp to limit the current is needed to measure thermistor effectively
[19:18:31] <edboogie2011> that guy sounds right now
[19:18:38] <edboogie2011> to not damage the thermistor right?
[19:18:38] <Horologium> again, must go back and get a broken one and test it.
[19:18:44] <edboogie2011> yeah..
[19:18:55] <Horologium> and, yes, probably you will need an opamp to get a stable long term use out of the setup.
[19:19:52] <inflex> define *stable* ? Because really, the simple divider into the ADC, perhaps with a small smoothing cap (100n) should be more than fine. The internal ADC has a 10K impedence, so it should be fine
[19:21:38] <Horologium> not knowing the exact circuit, no way to know, but I'm betting something is damaging that thermistor over time.
[19:21:43] <inflex> Sorry, I misworded that, the ADC *anticipates* a ~10k impedence from the source.
[19:22:01] <edboogie2011> Horologium: it sounds logical to me too
[19:22:16] <edboogie2011> i mean how does it work for months than fail
[19:22:37] <inflex> could be a firmware issue
[19:22:39] <Horologium> same way any electronics do if they are stressed.
[19:23:06] <inflex> ie, could be a value building up constantly in the program until eventually it overflows
[19:23:34] <edboogie2011> hmm.. I should ask the users to change probes and see if it still is high
[19:24:23] <Horologium> guessing no long term testing was done on the device before it was sold, eh?
[19:25:13] <edboogie2011> yeah.. i mean one month to two
[19:25:19] <edboogie2011> i tested in a lab style setting
[19:26:27] <inflex> Yeah... horrible how many things are found within 10 minutes of real-world testing outside the lab :( But what else can you do?
[19:26:59] <edboogie2011> I even tried to simulate EMI using high watt switching ballasts that would typically be used by customers.. and they still get interference with certain ballasts
[19:27:02] * inflex has had a couple of notable SNAFUs with his products in the past
[19:28:21] <Roklobsta> like wht?
[19:28:27] <Roklobsta> too much EMI?
[19:29:00] <edboogie2011> their sensors will read a little high..
[19:29:12] <edboogie2011> only when those ballasts were on, I'm not sure if its EMI
[19:29:29] <inflex> I had a combo voltage regulator + low voltage alarm. I changed the regulator to 5.5V from 5.0V, changed the scaling fine, but I had a quirk during testing with the in-use alarm phase so I commented it out... and didn't reenable that in production
[19:29:59] <inflex> So people were using them and sure enough, a few people went below the low-voltage point and their equipment catastrophically failed.
[19:30:21] <edboogie2011> how did you make right with those customers?
[19:30:28] <edboogie2011> did you send them a fix?
[19:30:36] <Roklobsta> i know a company that used a preproduction version of a chip that worked just fine with jtag plugged in but not without it but they discoveredthat after they made 1000 units.
[19:30:51] <inflex> Some I couldn't, it was over. As for the others, I just organised and paid for a mail-back replacement
[19:30:52] <edboogie2011> Roklobsta: that is soo bad
[19:31:01] <edboogie2011> Roklobsta: why would they not test it without the jtag
[19:31:13] <Roklobsta> dunno. but the company folded not long after
[19:31:18] <inflex> Production, time-to-market pressures make you take shortcuts
[19:31:26] <inflex> ( well, not "make", but certainly coerce you )
[19:31:43] <inflex> There's also the occasional pure brain fart ( like what I did )
[19:31:47] <Roklobsta> they were rushing to make trial units for china
[19:32:55] <edboogie2011> Roklobsta: were there a lot of employees there
[19:33:05] <edboogie2011> that sounds awful, both your cases
[19:34:25] <inflex> I had one product that didn't even do what it was designed to do - it was purely by *luck* (parasitic behaviour) that it worked at all.
[19:35:49] <inflex> I didn't notice until I went to design a new, more compact board for it using new methods ... at which point I realised the original schem had a fault in it (I thought I had a node/junction, but it was just a near-miss)
[19:36:42] <inflex> Still, two dud events in 5 years with 50 products, I'm not too upset about it, considering it was a 1-man-show.
[19:46:22] <Roklobsta> ed: it was aa startupo maybe 15
[19:47:09] <Roklobsta> inflex: are you still making things or just staying with IT?
[19:49:51] <inflex> IT for me.
[19:50:08] <inflex> I'm burned out on the electronics. I've still got about $5k worth of bits now rotting in my workshop.
[19:50:33] <inflex> Every now and then the equipment gets fired up to fix a motherboard or cell phone, but rarely anything creative now
[19:54:00] <Tom_itx> don't let them rot
[19:54:05] <Tom_itx> make something useful from them
[20:11:14] <Casper> inflex: IT... so computer? do you often see a "police" virus?
[20:11:47] <Roklobsta> casper: i have last wee
[20:11:48] <Roklobsta> k
[20:12:11] <Roklobsta> they are becoming common on windows xp systems
[20:12:16] <Casper> Roklobsta: what area of the world? did you found the infection point?
[20:12:40] <Roklobsta> casper: .au and one purported it was from the local police.
[20:12:56] <Roklobsta> easy to wipe with the usual tools.
[20:13:42] <Casper> hkcu/software/microsoft/windows nt/current version/winlogon/shell -> the virus path...
[20:14:10] <Casper> and what is your "usual tools" at our store... I think it's been over 150 since the begening of the year
[20:14:15] <Casper> and it's a small one
[20:15:02] <Roklobsta> it's a pest. a client got hit with that one that turned all the directories into virus files and porn.exe and sex.exe. That was a pain to clean up.
[20:15:05] <Casper> and Roklobsta... up to now, it seems like it may be only canada, italia and australia that get it, which make me wonder about the entry point
[20:15:34] <Casper> Roklobsta: that's probably not the police virus that did it, or you got a new version
[20:15:57] <Casper> up to now, all what the virus did here is lock the pc and scare the user
[20:16:02] <Roklobsta> well this one hid the real directories thankfully didn't delete anything.
[20:16:08] <Roklobsta> yeah
[20:16:25] <Roklobsta> the sooner we all go back to systems with a ROM the better.
[20:16:32] <Casper> however, sometime there is others virus at the same time (and the history show lots of porn)
[20:16:45] <Casper> Roklobsta: I hear rumor of UEFI bios virus
[20:17:01] <Roklobsta> ugh what that UEFI is a virus?
[20:17:02] <Roklobsta> ;_
[20:17:04] <Roklobsta> )
[20:17:09] <Casper> but a google search came with no result
[20:17:11] <Casper> you know
[20:17:13] <Casper> the new bios?
[20:17:31] <Roklobsta> i have yet to come across a UEFI system. everyone i deal with has old pc's.
[20:17:38] <Casper> ok
[20:18:00] <Casper> well, the new bios... Unified Extensible Firmware Interface
[20:18:09] <Casper> I don't like the "E" part
[20:19:12] <Casper> suposelly, the OS can install some modules...
[20:19:19] <Casper> ... but there seems to be no way to manage those
[20:22:58] <seldon> But without the "E", Kaspersky wouldn't be able to sell you UEFI snakeoil.
[20:24:42] <Casper> the rumor say that the virus lockup is in the bios, infecting the mbr, auto set itself to start when windows run
[20:25:06] <Casper> so... you may be unable to clean it up
[20:26:38] <Tom_itx> what about restoring bios defaults?
[20:27:05] <seldon> That's the sort of stuff UEFI's secure boot was supposedly designed to prevent.
[20:27:27] <Tom_itx> kinda backfired
[20:27:46] <seldon> My hunch is that it was mostly about locking tablets. Anyway, if malware replaces your bios, you cannot trust your bios to reset to default.
[20:28:46] <Casper> seldon: secure boot block mbr virus, not bios virus...
[20:29:21] <Casper> and I found nothing that talk about managing or resetting the uefi modules, so it may not be possible
[20:30:11] <seldon> Haven't heard anything about that in the wild yet, although there's http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/19/win8_rootkit/
[20:31:49] <seldon> I suspect that sort of thing isn't worth the effort yet for your run-off-the-mill bot herder.
[20:32:18] <inflex> Casper: yeah, I get quite a few of the CIA/FBI/ASIO ones
[20:34:07] <Casper> inflex: did you hear anyome that saw them outside of .au and .ca? like in the usa? or europe?
[20:34:28] <inflex> Never really checked.
[20:35:07] <Casper> k
[20:35:19] <Casper> well, bbl
[23:53:34] <stanreg> If I do this: "USART_Tx(ADC_read())" (read from ADC, tx using USART), all is fine. If I do this "USART_Tx(ADC_read() || 0x00)", which is about the same thing with the added OR with zero, things stop working. Any ideas!?
[23:54:54] <Casper> ADC_READ() should be 16 bits
[23:55:01] <Casper> and you do a 8 bits math on it
[23:56:55] <stanreg> ADC_READ() only keeps the 8 MSB..
[23:59:02] <stanreg> Moreover; isn't "OR 0x00" the equivalent of "OR 0x0000"?
[23:59:39] <Casper> doubt so