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[00:44:13] <megal0maniac_afk> Tom_itx: He's in China (says IP lookup)
[04:08:20] <RikusW> alternative to the Rpi ?
https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino/
[04:12:22] <specing> alternative?
[04:12:33] <specing> that thing pretty much punches RPI in the face
[04:14:00] <specing> and for 5 eur more you get a cortex-a8 with SATA
[04:16:06] <RikusW> link ?
[04:16:44] <specing> http://cubieboard.org/
[04:17:13] <RikusW> thaks
[04:17:16] <RikusW> thanks
[04:21:35] <RikusW> looks nice
[04:50:49] <twnqx> specing: that thing still is single core only, right?
[06:00:47] <jadew> lol, the guy who invented Wiring is probably preatty pissed off right now
[06:01:06] <jadew> it looks like arduino is just a copy of that
[06:01:19] <jadew> at least that's what it was at the begining
[06:01:35] <antto> Wiring?
[06:01:40] <jadew> exactly
[06:01:51] <jadew> that's open source for you, someone does the hard work and someone else takes the credit
[06:02:10] <antto> that's not open source
[06:02:16] <jadew> sure it is
[06:02:22] <antto> then the license was dumb ;]
[06:02:43] <jadew> and it's why you don't see many pro devs coding for linux, unless they do it for a company
[06:03:24] <langoliers> there are "pr0 c0ders on linux"
[06:03:59] <langoliers> it is the large number of dumb programmers that makes things shit
[06:04:03] <jadew> I didn't say they aren't, but very few and the most of them are working on server programs (in the interrest of some company)
[06:04:24] <antto> there are some fine open source apps available
[06:04:35] <antto> you say they were written by dumb coders?
[06:04:40] <antto> ;]
[06:04:43] <jadew> most of them, yes
[06:04:46] <langoliers> xchat firefox was mostly yes
[06:04:59] <langoliers> when nobody knows what the code really does :)
[06:05:05] <antto> blender?
[06:05:06] <jadew> there are even programming languages made by dumb coders out there
[06:05:26] <jadew> php is one of them
[06:05:43] <langoliers> antto<= you oversimplify what i wrote.
[06:07:14] <langoliers> not everything is a stick with 2 ends
[06:07:38] <jadew> antto, take your run of the mill open source app, something simple and check the bug tracker
[06:07:56] <jadew> the ratio of app size / bugs is way out of proportion
[06:09:07] <jadew> only poor design, bad coding practices and inexperience can lead to a release with so many freaking bugs
[06:09:18] <antto> so what?
[06:09:32] <Horologium> jadew, wiring was incorporated into the ardweeny system.
[06:09:36] <antto> should open source be banned?
[06:09:49] <jadew> antto, so nothing... just proving a point, that os stuff is usually written by non-pro devs
[06:10:10] <jadew> antto, I never said that
[06:10:30] <jadew> Horologium, yeah, I'm sure that makes the guy who came up with it very happy :P
[06:10:33] <Horologium> and blender started out as a closed source program...
[06:11:34] <Horologium> from what I've seen of ardweeny, it does promote wiring as an addon part of it and not something they designed themselves...
[06:11:42] <jadew> never looked over its source code, nor used it really so I can't say anything about it
[06:12:04] <jadew> Horologium, yeah, but it sucks for the guy
[06:12:12] <jadew> he actually came up with the idea
[06:12:19] <Horologium> he doesn't get anything out of it but warm fuzzies.
[06:12:27] <langoliers> antto<= open source bannered? yes definitely, they get money from that
[06:12:34] <jadew> those guys (apparently were somehow around him) took the idea and started making money off of it
[06:12:40] <langoliers> and donations
[06:12:43] <Horologium> as for blender, it was a commercial product to start but they stopped development...so the open source community bought it and released it.
[06:13:23] <jadew> ah, that explains how come there's an opensource 3d modeling tool out there :P
[06:13:57] <langoliers> when will be m$ sold out and officially burned down ?
[06:14:10] <jadew> never most likely
[06:14:16] <langoliers> then salted
[06:14:25] <antto> okay maybe blender wasn't the best example
[06:14:29] <antto> SciLab then ;]
[06:14:57] <antto> is that written by dumb coders?
[06:15:03] <jadew> never used it
[06:15:09] <jadew> can't say
[06:15:13] <antto> ah, so then it doesn't count ;]
[06:15:17] <antto> it does not exist
[06:15:21] <langoliers> antto<= you use that? what is that?
[06:15:35] <antto> it's an open source clone of MatLab
[06:15:43] <antto> MatLab costs a kidney ;]
[06:15:57] <jadew> antto, I'm a programmer, if the shit I (and I emphasis on I) use is broken, I can't imagine the other stuff to be way better
[06:16:27] <antto> what "shit" is that?
[06:16:40] <jadew> programming tools, IDEs, libraries, whatever
[06:17:11] <jadew> you expect to see the best kind of programming in there and from there to get slowly worse as it gets to userland apps
[06:17:15] <antto> if you had to pay for all that stuff - would you pay?
[06:17:33] <jadew> of course, I'm a windows programmer most of the time
[06:17:45] <antto> well, i wouldn't
[06:17:50] <jadew> and yes, the tools are highly superior
[06:18:01] <antto> and i think there are many like me, which don't have tons of money
[06:18:25] <jadew> antto, it's not about tons of money
[06:18:34] <antto> that's why i use gcc, and not M$ or intel or other payware compiler/ide
[06:18:43] <jadew> if you're building houses, you're probably gonna have to buy a hammer
[06:19:02] <antto> or make your own hammer
[06:19:04] <antto> ;]
[06:19:24] <langoliers> jadew<= opensource is not about making money.
[06:19:38] <jadew> langoliers, that's another reason why you don't see many pro devs doing it :P
[06:19:44] <langoliers> some jews like ms makes money from it though.
[06:19:56] <jadew> ms has opensource stuff too
[06:20:02] <jadew> and really bad ass ones
[06:20:25] <antto> jadew which part of the world do you live in?
[06:20:31] <langoliers> you can always grab snipplets from opensource programs and relabel them yours (illegally) and sell them with your bloated shit software
[06:20:32] <jadew> antto, europe
[06:20:49] <antto> then you must know there are poor countries in europe too
[06:20:58] <jadew> I live in a poor country
[06:21:03] <antto> which one?
[06:21:06] <jadew> romania
[06:21:14] <antto> hello, neighbour ;]
[06:21:21] <jadew> well, hi :)
[06:21:23] <jadew> where are you from?
[06:21:27] <antto> bulgaria
[06:21:33] <jadew> ah, nice beach :P
[06:21:38] <jadew> been there several times
[06:21:50] <jadew> dobrilden? :P
[06:21:59] <antto> Varna
[06:22:06] <antto> the sea capital
[06:22:19] <antto> but i don't go to the beach anymore
[06:22:21] <jadew> I actually messed up an intersection in varna
[06:22:38] <jadew> I couldn't decide where to go and got stuck in the middle
[06:22:44] <antto> haha ;]
[06:23:48] <Horologium> there is good software and bad software and good coders and bad coders in both open source and commercial products...yes, there is a larger base of bad coders in open source, but at least we are trying.
[06:23:48] <langoliers> how's the gypsy rock and dart wars going at romania ?
[06:23:53] <antto> i don't know, i see it good that you can start doing something new using existing stuff without having to draw a credit from the bank
[06:24:25] <jadew> langoliers, most of them left for france, spain and itally
[06:24:38] <langoliers> hahaha sounds fun
[06:24:38] <jadew> we're a happier country now
[06:24:42] <langoliers> they can have france
[06:25:22] <antto> Horologium the good bits can be reused
[06:25:28] <antto> that's very important
[06:25:31] <Funklord> Horologium: in my experience 95% of commercial developers are horribly bad
[06:25:49] <antto> there is a piece of "good" code even in the broken programs
[06:26:29] <antto> or even they're useful to server as an example of a failed program, you can examine why it failed
[06:26:31] <jadew> don't get me wrong, the fact that I don't particularly like opensource as it is now, doesn't mean I'm aginst free software or sharing code
[06:26:36] <antto> * serve
[06:26:37] <jadew> I just don't like the idea of sharing all the code
[06:27:17] <langoliers> jadew<= you can not hide any code.
[06:27:32] <langoliers> what you can copy, execute you can disassemble.
[06:27:44] <antto> at one point years ago i got sick of using cracked software, so i decided to use free apps
[06:27:49] <jadew> langoliers, that's not something I'm concerned about :)
[06:27:49] <langoliers> in a microcontroller one can secure the design using locks.
[06:27:50] <Funklord> java = code hiding
[06:27:53] <antto> most of those happen to be opensource
[06:28:01] <langoliers> java=shit
[06:28:04] <langoliers> thanks
[06:28:18] * jadew agrees
[06:28:36] <jadew> whoever is in charge of java has some stupid ideas
[06:28:44] <langoliers> sun
[06:28:55] <jadew> like no operator overloading
[06:29:13] <langoliers> java is an enterprise solution for megaservers
[06:29:35] <Funklord> java is probably one of the largest exercises in pointlessness I've ever seen
[06:29:43] <langoliers> (it is usually resource hogger and leaking, and instable)
[06:29:44] <jadew> lol
[06:29:50] <jadew> yeah
[06:29:57] <Funklord> a language with absolutely no redeeming aspects
[06:30:06] <antto> i've made one app myself, and while it's not yet open source (cuz my code is ugly) it's free
[06:30:16] <antto> i did it using free/opensource libs and stuff
[06:30:32] <antto> otherwise i wouldn't be able to ;]
[06:31:17] <jadew> antto, that's perfectly fine, but would you consider yourself a pro coder?
[06:31:18] <Funklord> write once, run everywhere <- only applies to C really...
[06:31:27] <antto> jadew of course not
[06:31:33] <jadew> so point proven :)
[06:31:37] <antto> if "pro" means proffesion
[06:31:50] <RikusW> Funklord: unless you usin Winapi ;)
[06:31:53] <antto> i work in warehouses ;]
[06:31:56] <jadew> pro as in super dupper
[06:32:27] <Funklord> RikusW: blasphemy!
[06:32:32] <antto> i thought "pro" means proffesion, aka someone who codes to make money
[06:32:58] <jadew> antto, not necessarly
[06:33:21] <Horologium> Funklord, even obfuscated java can be reversed and decompiled.
[06:33:48] <jadew> yeah, I did that to add some features to my android contacts app
[06:33:55] <antto> professional musicians sell the music and make tours (where you have to buy a ticket) no?
[06:34:13] <jadew> signed and all that (lol @ android)
[06:34:40] <Funklord> Horologium: java is already a very weak description of what you are trying to do
[06:35:55] <jadew> to see a monument of java's failure: start eclipse
[06:36:08] <Valen1> make sure you have some popcorn
[06:36:11] <Valen1> and a comfy chair
[06:36:15] <Funklord> Horologium: stupid concepts like GC are forced, IMO GC can be needed sometimes, but shouldn't be used by default
[06:36:56] <Funklord> yeah, I don't know how many times I've tried to force myself to like eclipse
[06:37:10] <jadew> same here
[06:37:20] <Horologium> no clue what GC is, sorry.
[06:37:20] <Funklord> maybe it just isn't possible to not tear your eyes out
[06:37:26] <jadew> Horologium, garbage collection
[06:37:29] <Horologium> oh..
[06:37:44] <jadew> after you stop using an object, it frees the memeory, when the GC gets triggered
[06:37:45] <Horologium> never did like eclipse..give me vi any day.
[06:37:47] <jadew> which is kinda stupid
[06:37:54] <jadew> reference counting works fine in c++
[06:38:38] <jadew> I guess GCing the thing has the benefit of not dealing with the destruction right away
[06:38:51] <jadew> so if you're doing some cpu intensive task, the GC can come in a bit later
[06:39:00] <jadew> I still don't like the idea tho
[06:39:17] <Funklord> jadew: yeah, but you don't want to do it for *everything*
[06:39:24] <jadew> that's true
[06:39:46] <Funklord> because then you have unpredictable chunks of cpu overhead that may jump in at any time
[06:40:19] <jadew> yep, that's why I prefer reference counting
[06:40:29] <Funklord> Like the teenager that says: "mom, I'll clean my room later"
[06:40:45] <jadew> well, there's reference counting in java too, but the kind of reference counting that frees the memory once the object is not needed anymore
[06:41:24] <Valen1> use python
[06:41:42] <Valen1> if that bit needs speed write it in C
[06:41:56] <Valen1> otherwise, your project is already mostly done anyway ;-P
[06:42:01] <langoliers> memory has a problem though: fragmentation
[06:42:06] <Valen1> (import, project)
[06:42:10] <Funklord> the heap is also a very inefficient way of using memory, since it tends to fragment
[06:42:15] <Funklord> hehe
[06:42:17] <Valen1> has anybody really come up with a good solution to that?
[06:42:21] <jadew> langoliers, yeah, but it's not a problem for most things
[06:42:30] <langoliers> jadew<= it is.
[06:42:32] <jadew> if you care about that you build your own memory management thingie
[06:42:39] <jadew> FF does that
[06:42:41] <langoliers> you just don't see it because the kernel handles it.
[06:42:55] <jadew> langoliers, I know what's going in there :)
[06:43:18] <jadew> anyway, time to get ready for tooth surgery
[06:43:21] <jadew> ttyl
[06:43:34] <Funklord> I've found a good way to reduce memory fragmentations is to write multiple small programs that call each other if you have an OS
[06:44:02] <Funklord> even if you make mistakes, the damage is limited
[06:44:16] <Horologium> ram-defrag!
[06:44:27] <Tom_itx> jadew you couldn't come up with a better excuse to leave??
[06:44:28] <langoliers> well fixed size elements can be swapped
[06:44:32] <langoliers> that is simple
[06:44:39] <Horologium> time for work here...laters.
[06:44:45] <jadew> lol Tom_itx
[06:44:48] <langoliers> problem is when you free something small and larger things don't fit there
[06:44:51] <Tom_itx> heh
[06:45:09] <jadew> anyway, now I'm really off o/
[06:45:41] <Funklord> there's a lot of new code in Linux to improve fragmentation
[06:45:59] <Funklord> I was reading about it a couple of months ago
[06:46:16] <Tom_itx> linux is a broad term
[06:46:24] <Funklord> the kernel
[06:47:07] <Tom_itx> i'm no linux user but i know of redhat, debian, ubuntu, fedora ....
[06:47:13] <langoliers> Funklord<= you like the rt patck ?
[06:47:15] <Tom_itx> don't know the differences...
[06:47:17] <langoliers> ch
[06:47:55] <Funklord> langoliers: which one?
[06:48:36] <Funklord> I haven't the new stuff that's making it into the mainline now...
[06:48:55] <Funklord> only really needed RT patches once
[06:49:18] <Funklord> when we were controlling a pick&place robot with Linux
[06:49:50] <langoliers> Funklord<= this one: ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/ (preferrably the latest)
[06:51:16] <Funklord> haven't tried that
[06:53:25] <Funklord> Tom_itx: they all use the Linux kernel
[06:54:47] <Funklord> good site for reading about the latest development in Linux:
http://kernelnewbies.org/LinuxChanges
[06:59:15] <langoliers> Removal of support for 386 processors
[06:59:16] <langoliers> !
[06:59:18] <langoliers> hahaha
[06:59:27] <langoliers> 20 years
[06:59:33] <Funklord> it was a sad day :/
[07:00:01] <Funklord> the 386 EX was pretty nice
[08:22:44] <edmont> hi+
[08:23:06] <edmont> i am having trouble with AVRISP mkII
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: stk500v2_command(): command failed
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: stk500v2_command(): unknown status 0xc9
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: stk500v2_program_enable(): cannot get connection status
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: initialization failed, rc=-1
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: AVR device initialized and ready to accept instructions
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: Device signature = 0x000000
[08:26:27] <edmont> avrdude: Yikes! Invalid device signature.
[08:26:28] <edmont> avrdude: Expected signature for ATMEGA128RFA1 is 1E A7 01
[08:27:24] <edmont> for this command:
[08:27:25] <edmont> sudo avrdude -c avrisp2 -p m128rfa1 -P usb
[08:27:50] <edmont> that happens with avrdude version 5.10
[08:28:41] <edmont> the weird thing is that it works with 5.11, but once you have already executed the command with 5.11 it won't fail anymore with 5.10
[08:29:01] <edmont> and the command didn't write anything to the micro
[08:29:07] <edmont> how is it possible?
[08:31:03] <edmont> it seems that making the micro sending its signature once, it already fixes the 5.10 bug
[08:44:08] <geoforce> small ? If I write brcc command with a value rather than a label (eg. BRCC 2 ) does the PC advance by 3 bytes ?
[08:45:00] <geoforce> 3 words actually i meant
[08:47:53] <OndraSter> the avr-asm always said "fuck you" when I used numbers :D
[08:51:58] <geoforce> odd as the Atmel docs use a number for their example
[08:52:22] <geoforce> in their instruction set summary
[09:07:32] <megal0maniac> edmont: Stop using 5.10
[11:17:49] <jadew> \o/ one of my monitors just died
[11:18:27] <jadew> that means: possibly a 3d monitor for replacement and lots of heatsinks :D
[11:18:56] <abcminiuser> What have I missed?
[11:19:09] <jadew> not much
[11:20:48] <jadew> wth... they're not making gray monitors anymore, they're all black
[11:23:08] <OndraSter> abcminiuser, hot redhead that is capable of configuring cisco routers
[11:23:21] <abcminiuser> ???
[11:23:40] <OndraSter> or switches
[11:28:20] <tosmo> did anyone play around with addressable RGB-LED strips? i was wondering whether the 120° emission angle of the leds is too wide to see dynamic effects further down the wall (led strip at the ceiling right to the wall, directed towards the floor, effectively washing the wall)
[11:38:25] <specing> OndraSter: what, where?
[11:39:54] <OndraSter> :P
[11:40:10] <OndraSter> you wish
[11:43:11] <specing> :)
[11:47:01] <megal0maniac> Configuring Cisco stuff is no mean feat
[12:31:53] * megal0maniac is making a BCD to 7 segment decoder out of logic gates :/
[12:33:09] <Tom_itx> 7447
[12:33:18] <megal0maniac> Decoder chip?
[12:33:28] <megal0maniac> Won't get marks for that :)
[12:38:47] <Tom_itx> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN7447AN/296-33612-5-ND/1575197
[12:40:35] <OndraSter> :P
[12:40:35] <OndraSter> megal0maniac, FPGA :)
[12:40:35] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, $3?
[12:40:35] <OndraSter> are you shi.ing me?!
[12:40:49] <OndraSter> I am used to 0.0nothing ICs :P
[12:41:12] <Tom_itx> rue did it on an avr
[12:41:21] <OndraSter> when it comes to basic logic
[12:41:30] <Tom_itx> 4 7 seg led
[12:41:58] <megal0maniac> Maybe I'll do that tonight if I finish quickly enough :P
[12:42:13] <megal0maniac> The datasheets help a lot for this project
[12:42:51] <Tom_itx> i guess i didn't post that one
[12:48:38] <specing> man because doing a BCD-to-7seg is that hard
[12:48:43] <specing> I have it in .vhdl
[12:49:54] <megal0maniac> specing: It's just long. Truth table, then Karnaugh maps for each combination, then something else. Like 5 pages in all
[12:51:35] <specing> megal0maniac: yeah
[12:51:55] <specing> my vhdl source is just a switch with 16 cases :)
[12:54:28] <Tom_itx> specing i think i do too
[12:54:47] <Tom_itx> was one of my early fpga ventures
[12:55:04] <Tom_itx> i think i posted that
[12:55:32] <megal0maniac> Is there much to learn from playing with FPGAs as opposed to uCs?
[12:55:46] <Tom_itx> piece of cake
[12:55:48] <Tom_itx> :)
[12:56:16] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/xilinx/
[12:56:20] <Tom_itx> i forget what that is
[12:56:24] <megal0maniac> Was looking at getting on a while back
[12:56:25] <Tom_itx> it may be the 7 seg thing
[12:56:43] <Tom_itx> looks like it is
[12:57:40] <megal0maniac> It is
[12:58:20] <Tom_itx> judging from the date stamp, i don't remember much about them
[12:59:12] <megal0maniac> http://www.xess.com/prods/prod048.php
[12:59:34] <Tom_itx> i have them bookmarked
[13:00:28] <Tom_itx> http://tutor.awce.com/pldx-1.htm
[13:08:29] <abcminiuser> Woo, now the LUFA AS6.1 extension shows a first-run info page
[13:08:32] <abcminiuser> So. Sexy.
[13:13:07] <megal0maniac> Hmmm...
[13:14:54] <Steffanx> abcminiuser is addiected to AS6 plugins currently, not? :P
[13:15:15] <Steffanx> *addicted
[13:15:50] <abcminiuser> Well, I'm trying to learn C#
[13:18:34] <Tom_itx> alot different than c or c++ ?
[13:19:20] <Tom_itx> researchers develope sensors to measure cow farts...
[13:20:15] <megal0maniac> Alternative energy?
[13:20:20] <Tom_itx> elecp-media.com/portal/wts/cgmcfMaU47ibbgnuicewwtqcrhgCExa
[13:25:50] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, very
[13:37:05] <specing> speaking of FPGAs,...
[13:37:15] <specing> Are there any opensource-friendly soft logic chips?
[13:37:28] <specing> doesen't have to be a full-blown fpga
[13:37:31] <specing> PAL?
[13:37:49] <megal0maniac> Like CPLD or what?
[13:37:58] <specing> anything
[13:42:45] <megal0maniac> Atmel ATF1504AS, maybe?
[13:51:56] <RikusW> specing:
http://www.arachnidlabs.com/blog/2013/01/22/introducing-loki/
[13:52:07] <RikusW> arm + soft logic
[13:52:22] <specing> Not sure how that is opensource-friednly, megal0maniac, there is only a bunch of .exes on their site
[13:54:21] <specing> RikusW: doesen't smell like open code
[13:54:30] <specing> http://www.cypress.com/?id=2494
[13:57:04] <RikusW> nickjohnson is in #hackvana
[13:57:07] <RikusW> hem makes them
[13:57:12] <RikusW> -m
[14:09:30] <megal0maniac> abcminiuser: Sketchy wifi again?
[14:10:31] <abcminiuser> Hrm, I guess so
[14:10:32] <abcminiuser> Odd
[14:18:06] <Tom_itx> ok what else do i need from mouser before i click send?
[14:18:46] <specing> MOOOSFETS?
[14:19:02] <Tom_itx> naw
[14:19:08] <Tom_itx> i got some 40A ones
[14:19:19] <specing> Do you have low RDS(on) ones?
[14:19:26] <Tom_itx> yessir
[14:19:35] <specing> how low?
[14:21:24] <Tom_itx> IR1404
[14:21:32] <Tom_itx> 1405
[14:22:04] <specing> have 9v6 diodes for 9V battery UPS?
[14:22:15] <Tom_itx> nope
[14:22:28] <langoliers> h
[14:28:46] <RikusW> updating KMPlayer at 300KB/s :-D
[14:29:15] <langoliers> Tom_itx<= irf
[14:29:21] <Tom_itx> yeah
[14:29:23] <Tom_itx> sry
[14:29:32] <langoliers> thatis not40A
[14:29:34] <langoliers> btw
[14:29:44] <Tom_itx> i thought it was
[14:29:52] <Tom_itx> the 1404 should be
[14:30:01] <langoliers> 75A limit, becausethe ledaswill melt
[14:30:09] <langoliers> leads
[14:30:10] <RikusW> 40N03 maybe
[14:30:20] <Tom_itx> yeah, why do they do that anyway?
[14:30:35] <RikusW> I got some 06N60 6A 600V mosfets :)
[14:32:13] <langoliers> 1405 is a bit better because it has 50V rating
[14:32:27] <RikusW> 14A 50V ?
[14:32:33] <Tom_itx> at least i remembered the 800deg soder tips this time
[14:32:39] <Tom_itx> solder*
[14:32:39] <langoliers> its like 300A pulsed
[14:32:59] <langoliers> 75A is the limit of the leads of a to-220 package.
[14:33:15] <Tom_itx> make nice fuses ehh?
[14:33:19] <langoliers> yes
[14:33:34] <langoliers> and they can desolder themselves if you make a loose fit
[14:33:36] <megal0maniac> Slooooooow blow
[14:33:52] <langoliers> and they will live after it.
[14:34:13] <megal0maniac> Everything else might not :P
[14:34:14] <langoliers> tried this with irfz44 ^^
[14:34:59] <langoliers> i even got my fingerprint on one while testing without heatsink lol
[14:35:25] <langoliers> the solder on the back of the device melted, and i touched it
[14:36:14] <langoliers> basically it had a reflow cycle
[14:46:48] <langoliers> at last, i have my atmel devices
[14:51:32] <megal0maniac> Yay :D
[14:51:37] <megal0maniac> What's in the box?
[14:51:54] <langoliers> atmega168pa-au, attiny13 soic
[14:52:00] <langoliers> and some ldo regulators
[14:52:15] <langoliers> all fun
[14:53:34] <langoliers> i like this pa thing :) it can do 1.8V-5.5V and rated at 20MHz
[14:53:40] <langoliers> and micropower
[14:54:25] <langoliers> it could even work without a regulator from a li-po or lifepo4
[15:01:55] <megal0maniac> langoliers: Any particular purpose?
[15:02:34] <langoliers> yes
[15:03:11] <langoliers> ps2 keyboards, keylocks, led flashers/sound synthesis, motor controller
[15:03:24] <langoliers> hy uv
[15:03:30] <uv_> hi
[15:03:40] <langoliers> what's up?
[15:03:55] <langoliers> never seen you talking here
[15:04:36] <megal0maniac> Cool :)
[15:05:25] <langoliers> and the tinys will be led falshers, and wireless encoders/decoders if it fits in
[15:05:28] <megal0maniac> Got a few chips, no specific use for any of them. Yet... Might build a bicycle trip computer
[15:05:37] <megal0maniac> With a 1284P :P
[15:06:37] <langoliers> i'd have to put some cryptic non-repeating code so it can not be hacked
[15:07:46] <langoliers> i have doubts though i can fit aes256 in a tiny
[15:08:11] <langoliers> ;/
[15:09:43] <megal0maniac> Maybe a t85, not a t13
[15:12:28] <langoliers> nah no problem that is some fun project, not urgent
[15:12:56] <langoliers> they sell code ics for a few dimes doing this
[15:18:50] <[z_z]> I'm getting this error when using batchisp "AtLibUsbDfu.dll not found" whats the remedy for this?
[15:19:19] <langoliers> hopefully i'll never know
[15:20:40] <langoliers> STAY AROUND IF YOU WANT AN ANSWER, TIMEZONES! < i always use another timezone
[15:36:39] <twnqx> infineon datasheets are no better than atmel's...
[15:36:47] <twnqx> "TXPND is cleared by hardware but must be cleared by software."
[15:37:36] <[z_z]> lol.
[15:46:51] <megal0maniac> Down to 18 dual input AND gates. That's as simple as it's getting :/
[15:47:05] <twnqx> cpld time!
[15:48:29] <twnqx> langoliers: help me design my powersupply! i already have the mosfets, IRFP4468PBF
[15:48:34] <twnqx> nice 100V/195A :P
[15:48:44] <megal0maniac> twnqx: 7408 time :(
[15:48:58] <twnqx> megal0maniac: i tend to solve it with FPGAs :P
[15:49:07] <twnqx> spartan 3, go
[15:50:11] <twnqx> i think i used a single gate 7408 this time
[15:50:25] <twnqx> the first time i used discrete logic in 10 years or so :P
[15:51:58] <twnqx> i am afraid the inductors will turn out as limiters...
[15:52:05] <twnqx> only 63A
[15:52:54] <RikusW> langoliers: the m168 will probably rated for 8MHz 3v3
[15:53:03] <RikusW> check its safe operating curve
[15:53:23] <RikusW> though 16MHz and 3v3 seems to work on m32u2
[15:53:29] <RikusW> but its out of spec
[15:53:35] <megal0maniac> ;)
[15:53:49] <twnqx> on an unrelated note, i can now run arbitrary self-written software on this car engine control unit
[15:54:21] <RikusW> twnqx: built it yourself or hacked it ?
[15:54:26] <twnqx> hacked it
[15:54:35] <RikusW> nice
[15:54:40] <RikusW> what kind of mcu ?
[15:54:45] <twnqx> audi v6
[15:54:52] <twnqx> or, mcu... tc1796
[15:54:59] <RikusW> don't know that
[15:55:03] <RikusW> manufactured by ?
[15:55:09] <twnqx> i think you don't want to
[15:55:11] <twnqx> infineon
[15:55:21] <twnqx> guess where above datasheet quote is from
[16:00:02] <twnqx> RikusW: so far i failed to compile the cross gcc
[16:00:13] <twnqx> i am pretty far though.
[16:04:02] <[z_z]> cross compiling gcc is a pain.
[16:04:13] <twnqx> is one is an unmaintained 3.3.6
[16:04:44] <twnqx> patched to support htis cpu by a random company with no interest in open source
[16:31:36] <[z_z]> hehe. twnqx, what will you do with the ECU when you can develop for it?
[16:32:05] <twnqx> mh
[16:32:25] <twnqx> i don't really intend to do anything with it :P
[16:32:38] <langoliers> RikusW<= i know how it is rated
[16:32:46] <[z_z]> teach your automatic how to drift?
[16:32:55] <langoliers> for flashing leds, it does not really matter
[16:32:55] <OndraSter__> lolo
[16:32:57] <OndraSter__> lol
[16:33:05] <langoliers> yo OndraSter__
[16:33:14] <twnqx> then i'd have to go after the ESP :P
[16:33:28] <twnqx> and the car drfits nicely with ESP disabled
[16:33:51] <OndraSter__> yo dawg langoliers
[16:34:03] <OndraSter__> and I am sitting here...
[16:34:19] <OndraSter__> looking outside on my '97 Mitsubishi Colt with 50kW engine :D
[16:35:34] <tzanger> [z_z]: actually cross-compiling GCC got a whole lot easier
[16:36:13] <OndraSter__> via emerge/portage? :P
[16:36:15] <OndraSter__> and switching archs?
[16:36:19] <tzanger> [z_z]:
https://www.mixdown.ca/redmine/projects/mixdown/wiki/STM32F3_GCC_Build
[16:36:21] <tzanger> no
[16:36:21] <tzanger> heh
[16:36:24] <twnqx> OndraSter__: crossdev!
[16:36:30] <OndraSter__> yes, that!
[16:36:39] <twnqx> works almost out of the box for avr!
[16:36:44] <OndraSter__> yep
[16:36:44] <tzanger> that page is targeted at stm32f3, but it's really easy to retarget
[16:36:49] <twnqx> you only have to gifure out how to set the right symlink!
[16:36:51] <OndraSter__> too bad that I use much better Atmel Studio and windows :P
[16:37:01] <twnqx> > atmel studio
[16:37:06] <twnqx> sorry
[16:37:11] <twnqx> i really feel sorry for you
[16:37:15] <OndraSter__> ugh
[16:37:16] <OndraSter__> why?
[16:37:20] <twnqx> i tried it
[16:37:22] <OndraSter__> and linux only to make sure that my program will compile on school's test website
[16:37:27] <twnqx> it's hell
[16:37:30] <OndraSter__> eh
[16:37:38] <OndraSter__> sorry, but Visual Studio has no competition :P
[16:37:39] <twnqx> no software version management
[16:37:41] <OndraSter__> and AS is based on that
[16:37:45] <twnqx> cluttering random files everywhere
[16:37:50] <OndraSter__> there is SVN/CVS pluggin
[16:37:52] <langoliers> :)
[16:37:59] <twnqx> i was talking software management
[16:37:59] <langoliers> twnqx<= what is you not know?
[16:38:04] <twnqx> not obsolete stuff
[16:38:07] <OndraSter__> what do you mean by that then?
[16:38:09] <twnqx> git
[16:38:12] <OndraSter__> oh
[16:38:37] <twnqx> svn/cvs are far too linear
[16:38:41] <twnqx> for my way of developing
[16:39:22] <twnqx> also, as a long term emacs user, i hate the editor
[16:40:03] <twnqx> (and i can't work with windows due to click-to-focus)
[16:40:17] <tzanger> there used to be a hack for windows for focus-follows-mouse
[16:40:26] <twnqx> win7 even has it builtin.
[16:41:17] * twnqx currently works with code::blocks for the tc1796
[16:41:20] <twnqx> in a windows VM :X
[16:41:52] <twnqx> i really would want multi-display support in virtualbox...
[16:42:02] <OndraSter__> vmware :)
[16:42:11] <twnqx> then i might really try out altium
[16:43:57] <[z_z]> I don't know why people would use atmel studio... besides that it is convenient, and you can complain to atmel when it does not work.
[16:44:19] <twnqx> the debugger, i guess
[16:44:23] <twnqx> avarice + gdb failed be
[16:44:24] <twnqx> me
[16:45:14] <[z_z]> ah. yes the debugger. but for writing code i find the texteditor+gcc so much simpler. meh, maybe im a purist?
[16:45:26] <twnqx> me too :P
[16:45:47] <twnqx> i wouldn't even know how to script auto-incrementing build numbers in the ui
[16:45:59] <[z_z]> i spent days debugging a problem just to find out it was a toggle switch in the ide...
[16:46:24] <twnqx> i spent days debugging PEBKAC issues
[16:46:24] <langoliers> twnqx> langoliers: help me design my powersupply! i already have the mosfets, IRFP4468PBF < what you not know?
[16:46:30] <twnqx> well
[16:46:36] <twnqx> i am a bit scared of the currents
[16:47:00] <twnqx> the target is 12V, 1kW
[16:47:03] <langoliers> current only cause heating
[16:47:15] <langoliers> voltage hurts
[16:47:39] <langoliers> in out voltage?
[16:47:45] <twnqx> in 55V
[16:47:52] <twnqx> ~20-25A
[16:48:04] <twnqx> out 12V, 80-100A
[16:48:17] <megal0maniac> There's GIT source control for AS too
[16:48:28] <langoliers> you'd probably want synchronous rectification
[16:48:49] <langoliers> buck regulator, or forward converter topology, driven with full-bridge
[16:49:00] <langoliers> (H-Bridge)
[16:49:03] <twnqx> i have some LM51117 here
[16:49:05] <[z_z]> in 55v ? wheres that come from? transformer + rectifier?
[16:49:15] <twnqx> i have 55V power supplies...
[16:49:34] <twnqx> data center stuff
[16:49:41] <[z_z]> why build a powersupply to power the powersupplies powersupply?
[16:49:50] <twnqx> nah, i want to convert the voltage down
[16:50:13] <twnqx> and thise nice things have integrated lead battery charger + automatic failover, etc
[16:51:39] <langoliers> twnqx<= so, what's the problem ?
http://www.ti.com/product/lm5117
[16:51:53] <langoliers> you need a megahyperpower inductor then
[16:51:55] <twnqx> what pcb copper thickness should one use?
[16:52:21] <langoliers> you do not pipe 100A through a pcb.
[16:52:31] <langoliers> unless unavoidable
[16:52:44] <langoliers> use thickest copper layer
[16:52:45] <twnqx> http://www.coilcraft.com/ver2923.cfm#table i have those VER2923...
[16:52:48] <tzanger> langoliers: actually there are board houses specializing in 4 and even 8 or 10oz copper on PCBs
[16:53:12] <twnqx> a few of those...
[16:53:26] <twnqx> was thinking about 4 in parallel
[16:53:31] <langoliers> tzanger<= oh yea :) but if i don't have to i won't.
[16:53:37] <tzanger> yeah don't do it
[16:53:52] <tzanger> just get bar aluminum and use SOLID insulated mounting
[16:53:55] <tzanger> not nylon standoffs
[16:54:19] <langoliers> solid?
[16:54:20] <tzanger> and for god's sake put heatshrink over it, you don't want to drop a screwdriver or a clipped resistor lead on top of the busbar
[16:54:28] <langoliers> that is no good at high frequency.
[16:54:35] <langoliers> you can use a pipe
[16:54:59] <tzanger> http://www.mar-bal.com/
[16:55:00] <tzanger> we used those
[16:55:00] <langoliers> or copper strip
[16:55:32] <tzanger> copper or aluminum won't matter, "at frequency" will probably have you at a few mils for skin effect anyway
[16:55:38] <langoliers> twnqx<= it will be fun to get capacitors for your design
[16:56:23] <twnqx> i have 10x 470µF polymer electrolytic :X
[16:56:28] <twnqx> probably not enough?
[16:56:32] <langoliers> it will smoke i think
[16:56:40] <langoliers> given you load it more than 10A
[16:56:48] <tzanger> check out the ESR and calculate the heat rise at frequency
[16:57:01] <twnqx> i see, ESR...
[16:57:23] <twnqx> yeah, that's the reason why i used 1.3€ 47µ ceramic capacitors on my last PCB...
[16:57:39] <langoliers> unfortunately those have a max current too
[16:57:42] <twnqx> yeah
[16:57:47] <twnqx> and they are SMALL
[16:58:00] <langoliers> 47u is not small in ceramic.
[16:58:06] <twnqx> yeah well
[16:58:22] <langoliers> and they work up to MHz range well
[16:58:36] <twnqx> yeah, the switcher is at ~1.1MHz in that design
[16:59:08] <langoliers> what will you switch 1.1MHz @ 100A avg ?
[16:59:18] <twnqx> nono, that thing was 1A :P
[16:59:45] <twnqx> i don't want to see the mosfet switching losses for that frequency at 100A :S
[17:00:41] <tzanger> why do you want to switch so fast at that current level?
[17:00:52] <twnqx> i don't want!
[17:00:59] <tzanger> you're going to have minimum size limitations due to the current anyway
[17:00:59] <twnqx> it's a step down anyway
[17:01:14] <tzanger> I'd think 100kHz would be way more than enough
[17:01:27] <twnqx> my other (small) deisgn goes at 1.1MHz
[17:16:55] * [z_z] wants to build a DC arc welder using atmels PSC.
[17:17:41] <langoliers> [z_z]<= an atmel can output 200mA, you only need 1000 atmels to output 200A
[17:17:59] <langoliers> (though the ar-welder outputs 24V)
[17:17:59] <[z_z]> got most of the parts already. I'm waiting on the breakout boards i made for the mosfets+drivers.
[17:18:14] <[z_z]> 80v open circuit.
[17:19:00] <langoliers> plasma cutting goes at around 80V
[17:20:10] <langoliers> you can cut a few mm thick metal with a 240-300A welder ^^
[17:27:26] <Tom_itx> i can cut alot thicker with a saw
[17:28:02] <Tom_itx> use the tools that work best
[17:28:02] <langoliers> but this is fun while you are practicing arc-welding at school
[17:28:25] <langoliers> max out current, let is spray molten iron
[17:28:44] <Tom_itx> that's not learning
[17:28:52] <langoliers> it is
[17:29:10] <langoliers> testing out things
[17:30:37] <Tom_itx> wait till you fill your boot wiht it
[17:30:40] <Tom_itx> that's learning
[17:30:57] <langoliers> :)
[17:31:03] <langoliers> never did that ;/
[17:31:14] <megal0maniac_afk> This is not learning
[17:31:24] <Tom_itx> weld barefoot
[17:31:27] <langoliers> i use proper boots :(
[17:35:37] <[z_z]> I've watched someone weld barefoot before.
[17:37:36] <langoliers> [z_z]<= btw autoignitor is like 16kV
[17:38:13] <[z_z]> yea. I've been trying to figure out how that is done...
[17:38:37] <langoliers> you don't really need to know
[17:38:58] <[z_z]> why? scratch start tig is only half as fun.
[17:39:17] <langoliers> because you don't build one
[17:39:29] <langoliers> for using it, you do not need to know how it works
[17:41:55] <tzanger> scratch start tig... is it much different from regular stick welding (besides the nitrogen/argon I mean)
[17:42:47] <langoliers> no, only the autostarting and protective gas makes a difference
[17:43:03] <langoliers> (and the features to be able to weld in bursts)
[17:43:40] <langoliers> and ofc you use a roll of welding wire
[17:43:59] <langoliers> autofeeder makes your work faster
[17:49:57] <langoliers> [z_z]<= if that thing is not fail-safe it will burn you to ashes, is that worth the price trying to hack one in your garage ?
[17:50:53] <Tom_itx> make one from a microwave transformer
[17:53:36] <[z_z]> langoliers, yes. its worth it.
[17:56:33] <tzanger> hm, what's a recommended (avrdude-compatible) hvisp programmer for attiny13 these days?
[17:56:55] <tzanger> Tom_itx: you have anything that fits that bill?
[17:57:04] <Tom_itx> no hvpp
[17:57:08] <Tom_itx> just isp etc
[17:57:26] <Tom_itx> dragon should do it
[17:57:54] <Tom_itx> dunno how hv works with avrdude though
[17:59:12] <tzanger> oh, that's a good point
[17:59:58] <Tom_itx> not saying it won't... just don't know
[18:00:19] <tzanger> with avrdude you say dragon_hvsp to use hvps
[18:00:25] <tzanger> same with stk500
[18:05:30] <langoliers> hv programmer only adds a transistor switched 12V to reset pin...
[18:05:44] <langoliers> because the reset is "disabled"
[18:06:26] <tzanger> no
[18:06:29] <tzanger> there's more to it than that
[18:06:32] <tzanger> completely different protocol
[18:06:42] <langoliers> but no more hv pins
[18:06:47] <tzanger> ISP is just SPI with the device to program being the slave
[18:07:13] <tzanger> HVSP has a command serial line and a data serial line as well as the normal "miso" return line
[18:08:10] <langoliers> and hv programmer is parallel right?
[18:08:27] <langoliers> but you only need this if you disabled reset
[18:10:05] <tzanger> langoliers: I think there's parallel high voltage programming as well
[18:10:16] <tzanger> I know, I am disabling the reset pin. I need to use it for I/O
[18:10:50] <langoliers> it may be good to disable it, but this hv programmer thing ;/
[18:46:14] <RikusW> langoliers: there is both HVSP for attiny and HVPP for atmega
[18:46:40] <RikusW> tzanger: you could put 12V -> 1k5 -> reset for a little more safety
[18:46:54] <RikusW> I tested it it works
[19:05:47] <tzanger> RikusW: yep I know, but as I said HVSP is an entirely different protocol from ISP
[19:05:51] <tzanger> it's more than 12V on the reset line
[19:07:29] <RikusW> yep
[19:07:40] <RikusW> HVSP is in fact serial HVPP
[19:07:46] <tzanger> ah I see
[19:07:47] <RikusW> using shift registers
[19:07:51] <tzanger> didn't know the origin of it
[19:07:57] <RikusW> and JTAG is almost the same
[19:08:04] <tzanger> digikey order placed, $234 and there's a dragon in there
[19:08:05] <RikusW> also using HVPP registers
[19:09:40] <Horologium> somewhere I have a dragon..have used it exactly twice.
[19:10:07] <tzanger> yeah I am loathe to buy it but it's $60 and not worth me fucking around hacking something together to get this going
[19:10:30] <tzanger> I didn't realize I could not disable reset in software like I could disable jtag in software on can128
[19:10:32] <Horologium> think I paid 75 for a dragon and stk500 combo kit some years back.
[19:10:48] <tzanger> I am curious if the dragon will reliably program devices with fuses set for 128kHz
[19:11:08] <tzanger> because even with the slow clock patch the bus pirate sure doesn't
[19:12:13] <RikusW> just set ISP clock to 32kHz
[19:12:14] <Horologium> get a bunch of toggle switches, some caps and resistors to make debounce circuits, and program it by hand.
[19:12:20] <RikusW> maybe 25kHz to be safe
[19:12:32] <tzanger> RikusW: yes I know, can't do that with buspirate
[19:12:42] <RikusW> thats unfortunate
[19:12:54] <Horologium> or just use the buspirate commands to toggle the lines manually.
[19:13:59] <tzanger> Horologium: ONE ZERO ONE ZERO ONE ONE ZERO ZERO BREAK ZERO ONE ZERO ONE ZERO ZERO ZERO ONE BREAK DO YOU COPY OVER
[19:14:29] <Horologium> it's doable.
[19:14:39] <Horologium> we used to program computers with toggle switches in the olden days.
[19:18:44] <tzanger> oh I know
[19:19:16] <tzanger> I've done similar things, dad had an old 8051 dev board he built in college that was programmed in hex
[19:19:34] <tzanger> that was probably my first real taste of low level computing
[19:21:14] <twnqx> you must go deeper?
[19:21:20] <tzanger> haha
[19:21:59] <tzanger> you mean like emulating an arm using qemu on an emulated x86 running qemu on arm?
[19:22:54] <Horologium> bah.
[19:23:09] <Horologium> emulating an x86 on top of an arm emulator running on an atmega1284p.
[19:23:30] <Horologium> oh, and run linux and wine on it.
[19:23:56] <tzanger> even better
[19:24:09] <tzanger> running jslinux, emulating an x86 emulating an arm