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[00:02:54] <GuShH> meh useless place
[00:02:57] <GuShH> probably a drug front
[00:06:04] <Casper> they sell other stuff
[00:06:33] <Casper> they are basically moving away from electronics components to sell other stuff, like cables, audio gear and computer stuff
[00:22:49] <rue_house> Casper, ebay
[00:23:18] <GuShH> we were complaining about local stores
[00:23:26] <GuShH> nobody said we didn't have a place to buy the stuff
[00:23:26] <rue_house> sounds like radio shack
[00:23:31] <GuShH> it probably was
[00:23:50] <GuShH> although he didn't say "overpriced"
[00:23:55] <rue_house> you cant buy an electronic componenet from radio shack here if your life depended on it
[00:23:57] <GuShH> oh well it was implied
[00:24:02] <GuShH> by the cost comparison of the power resistor...
[00:24:15] <rue_house> image if radioshack had tried, they could ahve been digikey and mouser togethor
[00:29:05] <GuShH> not sure
[01:14:35] <kdehl> Have you guys got any experiences with those super cheap Bluetooth modules, HC-05, 05, 07 and whatever they're called?
[01:15:33] <kdehl> Some seem to be "client" mode, only, others "server" and some both, whatever that means.
[01:16:19] <rue_house> bluetooth uses a client/server model
[01:16:32] <kdehl> I thought Bluetooth hosts weren't defined according to that terminology. Everyone speaks to everyone [B[A
[01:16:36] <kdehl> sölfkasdflök
[01:16:39] <kdehl> Sorry, laglaglag.
[01:16:47] <kdehl> Oh, really.
[01:16:50] <kdehl> Okay.
[01:17:16] <rue_house> iirc to comm between devices they have to be cleint/server hybrid
[01:17:23] <kdehl> Is that the same as some hosts being "discoverable" and others that search for them?
[01:17:33] <kdehl> Okay.
[01:18:25] <rue_house> devices are associated, a client goes into transmitting an id signal and the server can capture and link with it
[01:18:28] <rue_house> iirc
[01:18:48] <rue_house> had some fun linking two pc's via bluetooth across the shop
[01:19:13] <GuShH> heh just learnt to lock-pick tj
[01:19:21] <GuShH> err tube locks from motorcycle locks
[01:19:24] <kdehl> Hm, okay. so I guess I should go for a hybrid module then.
[01:19:36] * GuShH doesn't trust any lock anymore
[01:19:43] <rue_house> I dont know how much is the hardware and how much is the software
[01:19:55] <kdehl> I'd like to be able to use Bluetooth keyboards for my AVR based terminal.
[01:19:59] <rue_house> are the modules your playing with presenting serial interfaceS?
[01:20:00] <kdehl> Ah, right.
[01:20:07] <kdehl> Yes.
[01:20:16] <rue_house> GuShH, metal from window wipers?
[01:20:24] <GuShH> what?
[01:20:32] <rue_house> for the picks?
[01:20:40] <GuShH> improvised torque wrench and fine tweezers
[01:20:48] <GuShH> but I can also do it with the rubber cap from a wifi antenna
[01:20:51] <GuShH> it's much quicker
[01:20:58] <rue_house> huh
[01:21:00] <GuShH> for regular picks band saws are nice
[01:21:13] <GuShH> rue_house: you need to understand how these circular locks work for it to make sense
[01:21:24] <GuShH> should I even explain the technique, it's borderline illegal
[01:21:36] <kdehl> I found a really good doc for these devices now, though.
[01:21:38] <kdehl> http://www.mcu-turkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HC-Serial-Bluetooth-Products-201104.pdf
[01:21:42] <GuShH> I just like to test this stuff, see I was about to give up the idea of buying a new lock because I already had one
[01:22:58] <rue_house> GuShH, is it a form of bumping?
[01:23:07] <GuShH> rue_house: anything with these tube locks
http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/attachments/general-bike-related-topics/227470d1311701137-master-lock-street-cuffs-motorcycle-locks-handcuff-bike3.jpg is bad.
[01:23:28] <GuShH> rue_house: torque and bump, constant rotational force and slight bumping locks every pin in place, takes 10 seconds
[01:23:46] <rue_house> yea
[01:23:49] <GuShH> so they make these tough looking chains with all sorts of gimmick names, and they use these chinese locks that you can open in a second
[01:24:04] <rue_house> I failed trying to pick my bedroom door lock
[01:24:25] <rue_house> and padlocks can usually be shimmed
[01:24:36] <GuShH> now they sell ones with "coded" keys, which I haven't tried to pick yet because I don't own one
[01:24:47] <GuShH> flat keys, same as padlocks.. easy
[01:24:52] <rue_house> hahah they use a solid cde on the other locks?!?
[01:25:22] <GuShH> cde? code?
[01:25:42] <GuShH> they are numbered and the blanks get drilled at different depths based on the code
[01:25:51] <rue_house> honestly, I use a padlock, I took out the tumblers, if someone is gonna try to pick the lock I have on my bike, they are gonna get it anyway, no need for me to have to fight trying to find the right key
[01:25:58] <GuShH> they also have some guide pins at the top / bottom which is supposed to prevent lock picking
[01:26:38] <GuShH> I might get two of those "coded" padlocks and the best chains I can find, they're going to have to get a big angle grinder to open 'em up, or enough time to pick them both.
[01:26:46] <GuShH> at that point their best bet is to wait for you....
[01:26:54] <GuShH> I don't know if they give up that easily
[01:27:14] <rue_house> lock picking would be convienient for me, tooo many clients that cant find the key to the room I need to be in
[01:27:18] <GuShH> It sucks, having to think about all this and learning how to pick different locks just so you can get the real true picture about safety
[01:27:21] <rue_house> :)
[01:27:36] <GuShH> I don't have any real picking sets... although I could order one any day of the week
[01:27:47] <rue_house> old winshield wiper
[01:27:49] <GuShH> it's all associated with theft and I don't want that
[01:28:02] <rue_house> they use a thin flat metal in them thats perfect
[01:28:21] <GuShH> hacksaw and other saw blades are ideal too
[01:28:39] <GuShH> not so much for a torque wrench
[01:29:01] <rue_house> my bedroom door is nothing special and I tried for hours
[01:29:03] <GuShH> it's bad, I wish someone would force them not to sell these locks
[01:29:15] <GuShH> the only absolute worse ones out there are the combination type
[01:29:33] <rue_house> the 3 digit ones where you can be +- a digit and it'll still open
[01:29:36] <GuShH> and the ones used for cupboards, you can open those with a screwdriver
[01:29:50] <GuShH> but those are not sold for safety
[01:29:50] <rue_house> I got...
[01:30:15] <GuShH> they're just to keep the doors shut, maybe even detour 5 year olds away.
[01:30:22] <rue_house> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/320980359992?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 for "my truck gas cap door"
[01:30:36] <rue_house> er good one rue
[01:30:40] <GuShH> http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00sCLthHrEVDof/Disc-Brake-Lock-Disc-Motorcycle-Mortise-Locks-ZX7102-.jpg
[01:30:46] <GuShH> they all use the same tube locks
[01:30:48] <rue_house> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/320980359992
[01:30:58] <GuShH> what a shame, I think most bikes I've seen out there have them, one form or the other
[01:31:36] <GuShH> of course if you were to steal, you'd need to deal with the ignition, on that end I'm clueless (other than shoving a big torque wrench and destroying it, which I've never tried but assume would work, since it's got brass pins inside)
[01:31:50] <rue_house> gnight
[01:31:53] <GuShH> and let's get further into that mindset, lojack, alarm, etc.
[01:32:04] <GuShH> the more you add, the harder you make it for them
[01:32:04] <rue_house> use a smart card to the ECM :)
[01:32:09] <GuShH> o.O
[01:32:17] <GuShH> or a hidden kill switch
[01:32:26] <GuShH> doesn't stop them from lifting it up onto a truck though
[01:32:32] <rue_house> use the left turn signal!
[01:32:38] <GuShH> lol
[01:32:48] <GuShH> a key - code cmbination with the built in switches
[01:32:50] <GuShH> sneaky
[01:33:00] <GuShH> I think alarms these days have a code input mode, but not sure how it works
[01:33:05] <GuShH> probably with the ignition switch
[01:33:26] <GuShH> I bet your arse half the bikes out there have the standard combination code
[01:33:36] <GuShH> unless they make it so you can't use the alarm until it's set
[01:40:41] * kdehl orders one of those HC-05 Bluetooth modules
[01:40:47] <kdehl> No, actually, two.
[05:53:49] <OndraSter> why does pic24f suck so much? Or is it just low quality datasheets?
[05:54:32] <creep> use atmel
[05:59:28] <OndraSter> creep, I can't, this is school :(
[05:59:56] <OndraSter> the registers are cluttered
[06:00:13] <OndraSter> you have got set of registers for interrupts, set for interrupt level options, then another set for flags..
[06:00:28] <OndraSter> why not keep everything for IO, including interrupts for IO, in the IO?
[06:00:32] <OndraSter> arrgh
[06:01:31] <creep> i'd do it anyway
[06:01:37] <OndraSter> :P
[06:01:41] <OndraSter> we have to use some PIC starter kit
[06:01:46] <OndraSter> in combination with the awful mplab 8
[06:01:51] <creep> oh ya
[06:01:54] <creep> cool
[06:02:33] <creep> how about an atmel with an avr-geany, and avr-gcc ?
[06:02:40] <OndraSter> :D
[06:02:45] <creep> avrdude will program it
[06:02:52] <OndraSter> how about my xboard with atmel studio 6
[06:02:53] <OndraSter> ;)
[06:03:02] <OndraSter> with an awesome xmega
[06:03:29] <creep> C does not really care about that
[06:03:49] <OndraSter> well there are different registers.
[06:04:27] <creep> you can define things you don't like though
[06:04:34] <creep> how does that make a difference?
[06:05:30] <creep> ok well i could say, just make a defines and pic will be all right too lol
[06:05:30] <OndraSter> I can't use the code 1:1?
[06:05:35] <OndraSter> :P
[06:05:53] <creep> script it haha
[06:06:31] <creep> OndraSter<< how would your teacher look at you if you'd define avr instruction set and functionality using macros?
[06:07:46] <creep> you can layer things
[06:10:43] <OndraSter> haha
[06:10:46] <OndraSter> we are doing it in C
[06:10:50] <OndraSter> I would have to macro every registers
[06:10:52] <OndraSter> register
[06:11:14] <creep> copypasta rules
[06:11:21] <OndraSter> well sure
[06:11:42] <OndraSter> but the time it would took I would rather just do what I should instead
[06:13:04] <Horologium> use a hidden set of defines to make C look like BASIC!
[06:13:37] <creep> :)
[06:13:41] <creep> ^^
[06:13:46] <OndraSter> or write Basic interpreter for AVR
[06:13:50] <OndraSter> and write Basic directly!
[06:13:53] <OndraSter> execute from RAM
[06:13:55] <creep> turbo pascal ?
[06:14:23] <Horologium> actually, am doing the avr basic interpreter.
[06:14:44] <Horologium> as part of the NRCS
[06:14:44] <creep> why not bash ?
[06:15:00] <Horologium> creep, I have a C interpreter here that I've considered porting to AVR.
[06:16:48] <creep> anyone made a wind generator yet?
[06:16:54] <OndraSter> with Basic?
[06:17:28] <Horologium> creep, small ones over the years..nothing big enough to amount to anything.
[06:17:37] <creep> ;/
[06:17:40] <creep> PC fan hacks? :)
[06:17:52] <creep> low power microcontrollers could run off those
[06:17:54] <Horologium> DC motors usually.
[06:18:00] <creep> oh that sucks
[06:18:05] <creep> PC fan is much better
[06:18:10] <creep> because it is brushless
[06:18:15] <Horologium> yeah.
[06:18:17] <Horologium> this I know now.
[06:18:24] <Horologium> didn't have such things 25 years ago.
[06:18:28] <creep> :)
[06:18:54] <Horologium> these days I would probably make my own generator unit if I was making a big one.
[06:18:59] <creep> there weren't any BLDC fans 25 years ago? ;/
[06:19:08] <Horologium> not that I had access to.
[06:19:20] <creep> na anyway
[06:19:31] <creep> strong magnets and windings
[06:19:37] <creep> + relative motion
[06:21:26] <creep> is it worth making a pc fan mod? or rather a vertical bigger one with watts of power ?
[06:21:32] <creep> ;/
[06:21:47] <creep> more is always better
[06:22:10] <creep> ohh Horologium how about stepper motors? :)
[06:22:57] <creep> i hacked a 3.5" floppy stepper on a supercapacitor series with a led, spin it up, and it lights up for a few minutes
[06:23:20] <creep> *resistor series with a led
[06:23:32] <Horologium> have tried steppers....most of the ones I have are hybrid steppers and don't do so good as generators..
[06:23:47] <Horologium> oh, they generate well,,,but have lots of holding force with no power..
[06:23:59] <Horologium> so hard to get started turning.
[06:24:13] <creep> i was thinking about using it in a vertical design
[06:24:24] <creep> those rotate slow, and have much torque
[06:24:36] <Horologium> somewhere I have a big 8 phase main motor out of an old old analog copier.
[06:24:42] <creep> nice
[06:24:45] <Horologium> that turns easy easy.
[06:24:59] <Horologium> and is about 15CM in diameter.
[06:25:17] <creep> you just need to hack a rotor on it, and a 8 phase rectifier from schottkys
[06:25:25] <Horologium> yup.
[06:25:42] <creep> it'd do 2kW at high wind ^^
[06:25:45] <Horologium> actually started planning a windmill this weekend.
[06:25:52] <Horologium> but not electrical.
[06:25:55] <creep> what type ?M
[06:25:57] <Horologium> need to put in a ducky pond.
[06:26:16] <OndraSter> the wind here is almost none :P
[06:26:25] <Horologium> gonna make a water pump and drive it from the windmill....like, an old fashioned farm windmill, only about 10 feet tall.
[06:26:35] <Horologium> we have some of the largest wind farms in the country around here.
[06:26:55] <creep> Horologium<< oh yea, this is designed for your motor ^^
http://www.freeenergystore.com/P10008642.JPG
[06:27:05] <OndraSter> we have got one of the largest solar farms, but we are not the best country for it. But you know, government giving grants and tunneling and bribing..
[06:27:05] <creep> awe ?
[06:27:38] <Horologium> less than 10 miles from here is the start of a 250 turbine windfarm..
[06:27:59] <Horologium> that's west of me...east of me about 30 miles is another 200 unit windfarm.
[06:28:12] <creep> nice so you have wind
[06:28:19] <Horologium> south of me about 30 miles is a 150 unit farm but they might be adding to that.
[06:28:24] <Horologium> we have LOTS of wind.
[06:29:15] <creep> http://www.freeenergystore.com/P10008792.JPG
[06:29:16] <creep> :)
[06:29:22] <creep> remote security tower
[06:29:33] <Horologium> many of the local highschools have 1 or 2 turbines too.
[06:29:55] <creep> good idea
[06:30:01] <creep> http://www.freeenergystore.com/alpha-2-lg2.jpg
[06:30:08] <creep> this is 5kW peak? :)
[06:30:24] <creep> the size is good
[06:32:44] <Horologium> all the ones around here are the traditional style, big honking 3 blade fans.
[06:36:53] <Horologium> http://www.dickinsoncountynews.com/story/1565177/photo/1262982.html like these..
[06:37:07] <Horologium> 1.5MWatt units.
[06:51:52] <RikusW> Lattice Semiconductor Corporation has announced its iCE40 LP384 FPGA featuring 384 LUTs (look-up tables) in packages as small as 2.5 mm x 2.5 mm
[06:51:58] <RikusW> sounds like a nice toy :)
[06:52:11] <RikusW> should be rather cheap considering its size
[06:57:10] <creep> so 1m^2 wind area is about 500w ?
[06:58:00] <creep> yes they use that big honking aeroplane because it is more efficient...
[06:58:13] <creep> but vawt is much better
[06:58:25] <creep> it is only.. 45% efficient
[07:07:54] <AndChat326081> hi! i need some help. i'm in college and i have to prepare a simple project using an avr microcontroller. i don't have a specific objective, only that i have to control something analogical. i don't have any ideea on what should i control. this is where i beed help. in other words, i need a very simple idea about a project that has analog outputs
[07:10:46] <creep> how should i make a nice twisted helical rotor like this?
http://www.windsolar-products.co.uk/images/products/spiral_vawt.jpg
[07:11:26] <creep> cut a piece every mm with a cnc and align them up? :)
[07:11:47] <dunz0r> AndChat326081: How about a controlling the speed of a motor?
[07:13:07] <AndChat326081> can i do it without pvm and still fulfills the condition of analog outputs?
[07:15:38] <dunz0r> Hmm... not sure. You would probably need some extra circuitry to make it analouge
[07:16:13] <OndraSter> either PWM or DAC :P
[07:16:28] <dunz0r> The voltage outputted to the motor will be analouge though. The PWM will get evened out by the capacitance in wires etc
[07:16:51] <AndChat326081> and aanother question. let's say i have a microcontroller the has max 5v to outputs. what can i do to give my my motor, lets say, 24v?
[07:17:07] <OndraSter> transistors
[07:17:15] <creep> can somebody give a hint on this? Horologium ? :)
http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/1574722/23686008/0/1319419146/Noise-free_VAWT_can_be_Installed_Near-People.jpg
[07:17:16] <Horologium> or a motor controller IC....
[07:18:12] <Horologium> creep, I would go with the wing build system....like you said, cut pieces then line them up and cover with fiberglass.
[07:18:36] <Horologium> could even cut the whole thing from one piece of wood then slice it if you had a big enough band saw.
[07:18:39] <creep> how would you make it aligned?
[07:19:05] <Horologium> cut it all straight,,,slice it,,,then rotate each slice just a little bit...
[07:19:17] <creep> cutting 2 holes and placing some pin in it one by one is not so cool
[07:19:21] <Horologium> put them all on a shaft and adjust till it looks good then glue.
[07:19:53] <creep> or this is why they are not cheap? :)
[07:19:59] <Horologium> probably.
[07:20:03] <Horologium> that thing looks hollow.
[07:20:08] <Horologium> so is probably pretty light.
[07:20:19] <creep> yes
[07:20:36] <Horologium> it is probably cut and formed polystyrene
[07:20:37] <creep> looks fiberglass to me too
[07:20:41] <Horologium> then covered with fiberglass.
[07:21:07] <creep> so about same way as home made boats
[07:21:08] <Horologium> just like we did large model airplane wings way back when.
[07:21:20] <creep> :)
[07:21:28] <creep> haha or aeroplane...
[07:21:38] <creep> there are diy aeroplanes out there
[07:21:45] <AndChat326081> this is my first project with microcontollers so i don't know much. i have seen that there are some uCs that alrready have DAC converters. i can send analog signal from my pins. then i will use a transistor to increase the power of the motor and i also need a control system to maintain the temperature. the referenced value will be set by the user
[07:21:51] <Horologium> you could get a big honking piece of polystyrene and a 5DOF CNC machine.
[07:21:54] <creep> made using the foam core fiberglass tech
[07:22:11] <Horologium> AndChat326081, look at r2r ladders too.
[07:22:35] <Horologium> you can make an 8-bit DAC with 8 output pins from the microcontroller and a bunch of resistors.
[07:23:11] <Horologium> from that you could drive a transistor to drive a motor.
[07:23:48] <Horologium> I don't know that any AVRs have DACs though....most of them have ADCs which is just the opposite.
[07:23:56] <creep> Horologium<< here is my first build :)
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,139911.0.html
[07:24:16] <Horologium> creep, 3 blades is more efficient.
[07:24:17] <creep> well it will be not perfect, but will work
[07:24:23] <creep> yes i will have 3
[07:24:50] <Horologium> and, from what I can tell, generally an odd number of blades on that design is more efficient than an even number.
[07:24:55] <Horologium> and,,,time to go to work...laters.
[07:25:19] <Horologium> oh..one thing to consider....a top and/or bottom spill.
[07:26:19] <Horologium> that rotates to face the wind...so when a blade is catching the wind it has blocks top and bottom to keep the wind from spilling out...but when it gets around to the back it spills..
[07:26:26] <Horologium> just a design idea I had...never tested it.
[07:27:25] <GuShH> Horologium: are we talking about lifting up beer using wind, so I don't have to lift up my arm?
[07:27:58] <GuShH> say, if we were to feed the test subject with nothing but mexican food, could the wind be generated by said subject's arse and thus, a perpetual machine would be obtained?
[08:54:00] <tzanger> GuShH: I didn't see the uni-t part of it, no need to be so hostile
[09:03:41] <GuShH> tzanger: hostile?
[09:03:47] <GuShH> what are you some sort of tree hugger from the 60s?
[09:03:52] <GuShH> you don't know what hostile is
[09:04:01] <GuShH> grow some skin.
[09:04:36] <GuShH> if I were to play your role I'd say why are you being so sarcastic and talking about gensets, why are you so mean! and then I'd start crying.
[09:12:23] <tzanger> lol
[09:12:39] <tzanger> did you not get a kiss goodbye this morning or something?
[09:14:23] <tzanger> I wasn't being sarcastic at all about gensets; I saw the model, googled, that's what seemed relevant so I was asking. it's not uncommon to have some kind of data log/remote display capability on those things, and it's also not uncommon to have a screwy data format to prevent people from not buying their overpriced remote display/interface.
[09:15:01] <tzanger> the page you linked didn't say anything specific about what it was for.
[09:15:59] <GuShH> tzanger: I have a thing against googloids.
[09:16:50] <GuShH> the last link I sent was meant for someone who knew what it was, and it was written for that specific public in mind.
[09:17:42] <GuShH> as per the format, it couldn't be simpler than a continous data stream of ascii
[09:18:05] <GuShH> the modes, range, etc. were figured out by fiddling with the meter while watching the serial output
[09:18:33] <GuShH> and while simple, it's posted there so others can benefit from it.
[09:19:12] <tzanger> what you wrote yesterday made it sound like you got to a certain point and were unable to go further
[09:22:19] <GuShH> tzanger: you fail at reading comprehension 101, sorry.
[09:23:21] <GuShH> just because someone doesn't upload the code to something, doesn't mean they "got stuck"
[09:23:54] <GuShH> it means it's either not for the public, it needs to be refactored, cleaned up or it's simply not-that-useful-as-is and a front-end would be required, and for that you need time.
[09:23:55] <tzanger> My comprehension is just fine. at any rate this discussion has little value. You're in a snit and seem to be offended that I made a comment about a link you posted in a public forum. I've got other things to take my time than engage in a pissing contest with you
[09:24:09] <GuShH> This is not a forum
[09:24:21] <GuShH> You are wrong at so many levels it's not even funny anymore.
[09:24:29] <tzanger> GuShH: yes, and again that's not what it sounded like to me, and it shouldn't really matter to you but whatever
[09:24:39] <OndraSter_> what are we talking about?
[09:24:48] <GuShH> OndraSter_: balloons
[09:25:00] <OndraSter_> I see
[09:25:08] <OndraSter_> helium or water or air filled or what?
[09:25:16] <GuShH> But not the type that gets punctured and yields you a tzanger after 9 months though.
[09:25:26] * GuShH hifives
[09:25:35] <tzanger> GuShH is offended that I commented on a link he posted with a google link to something that I thought could have been relevant, and then he got his panties in a twist because I said he had a "hostile" attitude
[09:25:35] <OndraSter_> haha
[09:26:04] <GuShH> they're only in a twist 'cos I gotta wrap it around my leg.
[09:26:19] <tzanger> that would make anyone testy.
[09:26:39] <GuShH> testies? yeah they're so big I sit on them.
[09:27:05] <GuShH> There's hardly any other topic going on....
[09:27:21] <GuShH> This is by far the best discussion this channel has ever seen!
[09:27:56] <GuShH> What is there not to like? massive genitalia and a wrong tzanger gives anyone enough content to write a couple bibles and then some.
[09:30:17] * GuShH hugs tzanger
[09:30:36] <GuShH> OndraSter_: this is what I get for recommending a DMM
[09:30:48] <GuShH> how come this shitface Dave gets gold in return and I gotta put up with this?
[09:43:18] <OndraSter_> your name is not Dave, is it? :P
[10:03:55] <OndraSter_> wf
[10:03:58] <OndraSter_> wtf
[10:04:04] <OndraSter_> I am trying to replace all USB ports on one laptop
[10:04:09] <OndraSter_> but... I can't find gnd/vcc!
[10:04:17] <OndraSter_> both edge pins measure nearly 0Ohms to ground
[10:04:18] <OndraSter_> (chassis)
[10:04:35] <OndraSter_> one is 0.2Ohm, one is 0.4Ohm
[10:04:44] <OndraSter_> (crappy DMM)
[10:08:55] <Steffanx> Why you want to replace em?
[10:09:03] <OndraSter_> because they are ... broken
[10:09:12] <OndraSter_> let's say that the middle plastic piece is... missing
[10:09:18] <Steffanx> How you do that?
[10:09:18] <OndraSter_> and in some ports the pins are... missing too :D
[10:09:40] <OndraSter_> oh
[10:09:49] <OndraSter_> I know why it was doing 0R between vcc/gnd
[10:10:00] <OndraSter_> because one of the pins in the broken USB port was... shorted to ground
[10:10:00] <OndraSter_> vcc one
[10:10:53] <OndraSter_> yay for short circuit protection
[13:04:58] <jadew> ffs... why does this always happen? just got notified that my order got shipped and I realized I forgot to buy something :/
[13:05:21] <jadew> this happens every freaking time
[13:08:27] <tzanger> yes, that happens to all of us on occasion
[13:08:43] <tzanger> or in my case, I went and made a special trip for limit switches, then dug through my box and found that I'd already bought them months ago
[13:09:17] <jadew> yeah, had that happen too, but I don't mind it that much
[13:17:15] <urjaman> Would here be people who "do" avr-gcc? I'm not sure if I've arrived to the right place...
[13:17:51] <jadew> you mean people who write stuff for the compiler?
[13:18:09] <urjaman> people who write the AVR targeting port of gcc
[13:19:01] <urjaman> gcc.gnu.org is being slow/down so I cant even check the bugzilla, and I found a stupid missing of an optimization with avr-gcc 4.7.2 ...
[13:19:07] <jadew> possibly, but I haven't heard anyone bragging about it
[13:19:36] <urjaman> Test-case:
http://pastebin.com/iZNMbfbk
[13:20:04] <urjaman> it is a single instruction in the end, but very annoying if you're counting every byte to fit the app into the device
[13:20:55] <RikusW> my U2S extension boards made by hackvana ->
http://imgur.com/iuoyV4x
[13:21:02] <RikusW> 0.8mm routing to panelize it
[13:24:10] <hackvana> Fine looking board too :-)
[13:24:16] <hackvana> http://tinyurl.com/hvpcbfaq
[13:26:02] <RikusW> so I got 6 for the price of one :)
[13:29:12] <RikusW> urjaman: check #gcc maybe ?
[13:34:05] <tzanger> hackvana: you do batch PCB processing?
[13:35:52] <hackvana> tzanger: What do you mean by batch processing?
[13:36:39] <tzanger> hackvana: where you hold the orders until there are enough to run, then run everyone's boards
[13:36:54] <hackvana> No. Your order goes to the fab on the same day I receive it
[13:37:06] <hackvana> Standard turnaround is 5 days then I ship it to you
[13:37:43] <tzanger> interesting... so you're like a sunstone then?
[13:37:56] <tzanger> although 5d turnaround is faster than sunstone's standard service
[13:38:11] <hackvana> I'm like a... me! :-)
[13:39:08] <tzanger> heh nice. I will send off a design for quote
[13:39:29] <tzanger> what do you prefer to see on the routing layer for snap-tabs like what RikusW showed in his pic?
[13:40:38] <hackvana> The routing layer would show slots, and the NPTH file would show the mousebites
[13:41:33] <hackvana> tzanger: You're always welcome to come talk with me (and a bunch of my customers, including RikusW and Valen) in #hackvana.
[13:42:39] <tzanger> hackvana: ok
[13:43:53] <hackvana> At the moment nickjohnson is talking about the tooling blocks he's selling for Zach Hoeken's "Stencil8" easy solder paste system:
http://www.hoektronics.com/2012/10/27/super-simple-smt-stencil8/
[13:44:21] <hackvana> (I do stencils too)
[17:29:33] <Valen> anybody know off hand if lufa will run at 8mhz?
[17:37:56] <Valen> yes yes it does
[17:41:56] <swart> you just won't get much in the way of speed
[17:42:11] <swart> but working is good
[17:47:05] <Valen> yeah, i just want to serial back some data
[17:53:54] <Valen> how would you power your device from a battery (lipo) and usb, and get full rail voltages in both?
[17:54:04] <Valen> IE no diode OR
[17:54:37] <OndraSter_> FETs
[17:54:39] <OndraSter_> ;)
[17:55:10] <Valen> I looked at that actually, its kinda hard to power it from the usb without it flowing back into the battery
[17:57:24] <Valen> the built in doide kills you
[18:15:02] <OndraSter_> Valen, well make a better circuit ;)
[18:15:48] <OndraSter_> if they can make superfast octacore CPU with transistors, sure you can do this :P
[18:15:56] <OndraSter_> with less transistors!
[18:17:41] <Valen> bah fets or death!
[18:23:00] <Horologium> triodes!
[18:29:04] <Horologium> http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/79/3CW5000A3.pdf a nice 51A triode...that will get you some nifty power...
[18:30:33] <Horologium> although, I doubt usb could provide enough current to heat the cathode....so,,,
[18:41:31] <Horologium> http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/3359 ooooooo...nifty!
[19:49:33] <jadew> any idea what's the gift tme.eu is giving out?
[19:50:08] <Horologium> didn't know they were giving anything away.
[19:50:46] <jadew> they do, if you buy on 21st of this month
[19:50:54] <jadew> so I'm wondering if I should hold off or not
[19:51:32] <Horologium> I can't buy from them.
[19:51:36] <Horologium> I don't have any euros.
[19:51:55] <jadew> you can pay in USD too :P
[20:17:01] <jadew> damn it, I can't find resistors for my voltage divider that are made from the same material, have the same tolerance and I can buy them in quantities that I can afford
[20:17:22] <jadew> I either find one resistor that matches and the other one is not in stock or I have to buy 5000 or some crap like that
[20:23:48] <Casper> jadew: high frequency?
[20:24:11] <jadew> no, they're for a power source
[20:25:23] <jadew> kinda crappy, but I found some at 1% that fit the 1/3 ratio
[20:25:41] <jadew> wish I found them at 0.1
[20:28:00] * Casper really thinks about buying an openups....
[20:28:16] <Casper> I sadly can't find anything else that come close to it's functionality :(
[20:28:50] <Casper> I wanted something higher quality
[20:28:56] <jadew> you talked about it before, I thought you already got one
[20:29:09] <Casper> nope
[20:29:19] <Casper> but seriously considering it
[20:29:23] <Casper> now that I have more cash
[20:32:30] <Casper> bbl
[20:33:00] <jadew> see ya
[20:59:31] <tzanger> jadew: what makes the resistors so special?
[21:00:19] <jadew> tzanger, they're giving the negative feedback to the opamp that controls the output voltage
[21:01:24] <jadew> I'm aiming for 1mV resolution
[21:02:38] <jadew> currently I don't have a DAC for this, I'll only be able to do 10mV at first, but I'm gonna leave space on the board for an external DAC, whenever I'll find a cheap solution for that
[21:04:13] <timemage> jadew, not something you can do with a multi-turn trim pot ?
[21:04:38] <jadew> I want it to be digitally controled
[21:04:49] <jadew> so I can quickly jump to preset values
[21:05:53] <jadew> this way I can also control it trough a serial port
[21:06:29] <timemage> jadew, i must have missed something.
[21:06:58] <jadew> it's a lab power source
[21:08:11] <jadew> well, it will be :P
[21:08:11] <timemage> jadew, and these resistors are ordinary or something like digital pot ICs?
[21:08:14] <tzanger> jadew use a small micro, precision reference and ADC/DAC
[21:08:30] <jadew> timemage, ordinary resitors that control the amplification ratio of an opamp
[21:08:41] <jadew> tzanger, that's what I'm doing
[21:08:47] <tzanger> don't mess with digital pots or other single-source stuff.
[21:08:54] <jadew> I'm not
[21:09:05] <timemage> tzanger, the reason why i asked is that i thought i misunderstood his question.
[21:09:26] <tzanger> you can get away with even 5% resistors if your reference is good and you use closed-loop control
[21:09:48] <tzanger> jadew: hm ok maybe I'm misunderstanding the reason the resistors are so specific
[21:10:21] <timemage> tzanger, =), glad i'm not the only one.
[21:10:23] <jadew> tzanger, well if they drift the negative feedback will be off so my output voltage will drift even more
[21:10:38] <tzanger> close the loop, drift goes away
[21:11:01] <jadew> not sure what that means, what's a closed loop?
[21:11:53] <timemage> jadew, the "negative feedback" you referred to earlier. i think there something missing from the description of the problem that's confusing the both of us.
[21:13:23] <jadew> this is the setup:
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/opamp_basics/op-amp_basic_non_inv.gif
[21:13:33] <jadew> what would a closed loop look like?
[21:14:44] <jadew> cuz I'm not sure how you can negate the drift of the resistors
[21:17:29] <jadew> the problem in there is that if one of them starts drifting, the ratio will be different so the output will also drift, that's why I need them to be be made out of the same material, same power rating and same manufacturer, because I hope that when one drifts the other one will drift the same ammount, in the same direction
[21:19:21] <jadew> and they need to be low tollerance because I don't want to put a pcb pot in there, because that one will drift like crazy
[21:19:39] <timemage> jadew, that's why i asked about whether or not you could use a multi turn pot to do it. being one device, whatever ratio you set should roughly stay as such through temperature fluxations. that's the reasoning for the suggestion anyway. in practice, i don't know how well it would work.
[21:20:02] <jadew> ah, I see
[21:20:23] <timemage> jadew, i kind of thought that was one of their strengths. but i'm not so experience with the idea that i'm just going to tell you that it is the right way to go about it.
[21:20:41] <timemage> something to research maybe.
[21:21:09] <jadew> well, it sounds right, but I need this to be digitally controlled, it's much easier to do useful stuff with it that way :)
[21:25:53] <jadew> what's a closed loop tho?
[21:26:07] <timemage> jadew, not sure how that would work. if i understand what want, it sounds more like what you'd need to do is get a switchmode regulator ic and feed it a voltage reference that you create with filter pwm.
[21:27:12] <jadew> ah, it's linear
[21:27:24] <timemage> jadew, it?
[21:27:35] <jadew> what do you mean?
[21:28:38] <timemage> jadew, heh. sorry, i'm getting too tired for this. i started the conversation somewhat confused and it's not going to get better until tomorrow. hopefully someone else here has the answers you're looking for.
[21:29:05] <Tom_itx> i swear ff has more updates than windows
[21:29:31] <jadew> timemage, I didn't have a question, just a complaint that I can't find the resistors I'm looking for :P
[21:29:52] <timemage> jadew, heh, ok.
[21:29:53] <jadew> I do now tho, cuz I don't know what that closed loop means
[21:30:00] <Tom_itx> how bit r value?
[21:30:22] <Tom_itx> big*
[21:30:36] <jadew> Tom_itx, it's not about the value, it's about the pair
[21:31:10] <jadew> I needed some resistors, for a voltage divider, they had to be a particular ratio, as low tollerance as possible, same material, same power rating, same manufacturer
[21:31:31] <tzanger> jadew: sorry for the delay, was putting kids to bed
[21:31:37] <jadew> np
[21:32:06] <tzanger> your voltage divider is composed of what kind of resistors? these are the low-drift, precision resistors you're having trouble sourcing?
[21:32:16] <jadew> yeah
[21:32:39] <timemage> jadew, your connection from v_out back into the input side of the opmap is your "closed loop" providing "negative feedback".
[21:32:50] <tzanger> you can always use two different sets (one with positive tempco, the other with negative) and average them out
[21:33:12] <jadew> tzanger, that's a nice trick
[21:33:19] <tzanger> you might want to look at chopper-stabilized op amps and other more esoteric things if you're trying to make lab-grade stuff
[21:33:31] <jadew> I did find some resistors that fit the ratio at 1%, 50ppm, should be good enough
[21:33:52] <jadew> well, not lab-grade, but my lab grade :P
[21:34:17] <tzanger> you can also include a precision temperature sensor mounted physically close to the resitors, pot htem all together and correct the resistance with this info
[21:34:31] <jadew> I don't mind it if it will drift 2 mV over half an hour, but I do mind it if it jumps around like crazy
[21:35:09] <jadew> tzanger, yeah, I don't want to overcomplicate things
[21:35:11] <tzanger> you can also take an additional one of those resistors (the "bottom" one perhaps) run a fixed current (from a current source) through it and measure the voltage across it to determine drift characteristics
[21:35:25] <jadew> this issue can be taken care of by simply using good resistors :)
[21:35:41] <jadew> my voltage reference is already good enough
[21:36:14] * Valen starts deleting bunches of schematic yet again :-<
[21:38:21] <tzanger> well what I'm saying is that if you use more generic resistors and double-up you can correct for their poorer characteristics
[21:38:47] <jadew> yeah, that's deffinitely a nice trick
[21:39:25] <tzanger> you can get .01%, 0.2ppm/oC resistors from digikey for $17 apiece, which seems absurd to me
[21:39:34] <tzanger> oh wait those are value-add sorry
[21:40:02] <jadew> heh, they're even more expensive in EU
[21:40:28] <tzanger> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/ORNTA1001AT1/ORNT-1KACT-ND/1770980
[21:40:45] <tzanger> that's better, $5 for 4 in an array, you use 2+1 for your divider, they're going to be very well matched and 25ppm
[21:40:52] <tzanger> er 25ppm/oC
[21:41:21] <Valen> what are you trying to actually do?
[21:41:42] <tzanger> http://www.vishay.com/docs/60005/orn.pdf
[21:41:56] <jadew> nice
[21:42:01] <jadew> Valen, a voltage divider :P
[21:42:07] <Valen> yeah, why?
[21:42:42] <jadew> for the negative feedback of an opamp that controls an output transitor of a lab power supply
[21:43:28] <tzanger> but look into chopper-stabilized op amps and the stability of your output transistor too
[21:44:05] <Valen> perhaps put a trimpot in parallel with your resistors?
[21:44:05] <jadew> I will, thanks
[21:44:25] <Valen> most of the current will flow through the R, then you can tweak it with the trimmer
[21:44:38] <Valen> mix in a NTC thermistor to taste
[21:49:31] <jadew> I'm really not that worried about this, I made another one a while back with crappy 10% resistors and I know what to expect in terms of drifting
[21:50:11] <jadew> I also made the mistake of putting them next to the output transistors so they would get warm and cool down based on the load
[21:51:21] <tzanger> jadew: yeah stick them on their own, investigate using Kelvin connections although I think that might be overkill for such low currents, and consider potting them
[21:51:53] <jadew> that's a good idea
[21:52:19] <jadew> I was going to put some enclosure over the voltage reference section, but I guess this resistors deserve some attention too
[21:52:35] <tzanger> jadew:
http://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/VishayPrecisionGroup_804/PDF/vishay-tech-prediction-of-drift.pdf?redirected=1
[21:52:38] <tzanger> have you seen that?
[21:53:44] <tzanger> http://www.vishay.com/docs/28809/driftcalculation.pdf there's that too (first was foil, this is thin film)
[21:53:50] <jadew> I have not, thanks
[21:54:34] <tzanger> I guess a question is how long are you driving the output? I mean the second link shows a dR/R of less than 0.25% over 1000h, going up to 1.5% after 225000h
[21:54:35] <Valen> ey "simple" answer is to oven them
[21:54:43] <tzanger> even 1000h is a LONG as time to power anything in a lab
[21:54:52] <Valen> run the resistors at 60C or something
[21:55:02] <Valen> a PTC thermistor will do that for you
[21:55:04] <jadew> tzanger, yeah, I can live with that
[21:55:13] <jadew> and if they drift too much I can always replace them
[21:55:56] <tzanger> precision anything is an interesting design challenge and requires even better means to measure it in the first place
[21:56:12] <jadew> Valen, never used thermistors
[21:57:02] <Valen> http://www.setileague.org/askdr/xtaloven.htm
[21:57:08] <jadew> tzanger, that's why I decided to get a high count meter, origianlly I set my mind on the uni-t 61e, but I'm gonna get the brymen 687 in the end
[21:57:28] <jadew> 50 000 counts, extendable to 500 000 and pretty good accuracy for the money
[21:57:40] <jadew> way better than my current 0.5% meter
[21:57:49] <jadew> it has something like 0.03%
[21:59:13] <jadew> Valen, thanks a lot for that, I wanted to make an oven for the voltage reference, but didn't know what kind of component to look for
[22:01:40] <Valen> its not a very good oven, but its the right price ;->
[22:02:22] <tzanger> I am always wary of what I consider "off-brand" equipment. I'd prefer to rent a known-good, calibrated Fluke 6.5 or 9.5 digit meter to calibrate even the uni-t
[22:03:00] <tzanger> I mean $65 for a 5.5 digit meter? seems too good to be true
[22:03:13] <jadew> tzanger, it's more like $300
[22:03:24] <jadew> or you mean the uni-t?
[22:03:32] <tzanger> yes the uni-t
[22:03:43] <jadew> yeah, the problem with that one is that it has a slow refresh rate
[22:04:01] <jadew> I was excited about it, but then I saw the datasheet and wasn't excited anymore :)
[22:04:07] <jadew> 2x/s sucks
[22:04:47] <tzanger> heh
[22:04:56] <tzanger> I'm more of a 8840A fan
[22:05:05] <jadew> is that a fluke?
[22:05:49] <jadew> yeah, I'd love a bench meter too, but they're too expensive
[23:20:43] <tzanger> http://imgur.com/gallery/LO94J6S
[23:20:45] <tzanger> ok that made me laugh
[23:22:14] <timemage> tzanger, =), i noticed that watching that episode on netflix a week or so ago, i had pause on it.
