#avr | Logs for 2013-03-15

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[02:18:06] <megal0maniac_afk> G'morning, collective rue :)
[02:18:19] <rue_bed> mmm internet cycled
[02:56:31] <creep> hey
[02:57:15] <creep> r00t^home<< cookin' loaf with IR oven ^^
[03:01:12] <creep> the lmx24 series opamps have input voltage dependent offset voltage:/ they drift +3mV from 5V to 12V
[03:29:40] <theBear> he gone... wonder why valen sounds so familiar, and how on earth he could be under the impression that avr don't publish the specs for max current per pin/port/chip
[03:29:59] <creep> 20mA ?
[03:30:13] <creep> and a combined sane limiut of 100mA
[03:30:15] <Tom_itx> 40
[03:30:45] <creep> but i'd use some hexfets
[03:30:55] <creep> and make it 40A
[03:30:57] <theBear> depends on the age and series and size (for things like port vs whole chip) but it's be no means hard to find
[03:31:14] <theBear> pfft, they're too hard to desolder off the mobo gnd and power planes :)
[03:31:19] <creep> haha
[03:31:32] <creep> well if you only need 500mA then 2n7002 in sot23
[03:31:49] <creep> dirt cheap and small
[03:32:48] <creep> theBear<< i have about a hundred of those from dead motherboards
[03:32:50] <theBear> huh ? that's a high number, 500mA i just grab the first to92 i see lying around, probably in something broken or that i saved (crazy ass in the next room had a fancy modern wireless ms mouse in perfect condition in the bin cos the dongle was damaged (i suspect a couple dabs of solder on the usb would fix him right up,) and subsequently misplaced
[03:33:41] <creep> theBear<< either you desolder for hobby, or buy new one
[03:34:13] <theBear> then again i found the plastic panel he lost off something else i'm repairifying for him INSIDE MY pc case... he's got a bad habit of just putting stuff all over stuff that you shouldn't put stuff on, like a pc with the side off :)
[03:34:20] <creep> no simpler way ;/ even if you can cut the connections, the large motherboard would be in way in most cases i think
[03:34:56] <theBear> i do all kinds of ninja-soldering for a hobby, am curently crippled and my income is -$20/week assuming i spend ZERO money on food or pleasure/recreation EVER
[03:35:08] <creep> ohh okey
[03:35:20] <creep> do you have a dremel? ;)
[03:36:28] <creep> that can even desolder the usb connector from a lead-free soldered motherboard easily ;)
[03:36:49] <theBear> i have a articulated bendy chuck thingy, like a cheap version of a dentist drill minus the motor, and a couple extensive sets of dremel-esque bits, but i tend to not use them much.. i really am a ninja solderer these days
[03:37:09] <creep> hmm, well hack the motor out of a CD drive
[03:37:36] <creep> it has 3mm shaft, and are brushless
[03:38:17] <creep> can do about 10W with original magnets, you can rewind it for higher kV, or just use as is
[03:38:40] <creep> sorry, Kv
[03:40:01] <theBear> i dunno, i think it sounds, inelegant :)
[03:40:20] <theBear> 3 shaft AND brushless ? holy crap i haven't been in a cd mech for a LONG time
[03:42:04] <theBear> yeah, i seen pics of rewind/remagnetting, i just, outta practice, tho i got a bunch lying around for various salvaging reasons, and well, it seems silly to have more than 1 or 2 optical drives working around the house these days, i don't think i've actually used an optical drive for anything other than ripping my own dvds (no tv or dvd player) and putting network drivers on friends 'broken' laptops etc, err, probably in the past 10 years :)
[03:42:23] <theBear> i burnt my first ever dvd a few months ago, turns out i've been capable of it for years, just never tried :)
[03:42:47] <creep> 3 phase
[03:42:49] <creep> 1 shaft
[03:43:05] <creep> you do not have t rewind it and remagnet it to use it :)
[03:43:25] <creep> 10W is ok for some hobby milling or drilling with 1mm drills
[03:44:02] <creep> it is just a bit slow with that high number of turns, if you want it turn faster, rewind it
[03:45:07] <theBear> i meant 3mm, had some weird keyboard delays, oh, since i played with powertop and put the keyboard on auto-usb-suspend yesterday :(
[03:45:08] <creep> dead cd/dvd drives are a treasure
[03:46:04] <theBear> you seen the 2*sled mini laser engraver webpage some dude did ? nothing amazing or groundbreaking, but a nice 'trick' for any kind of diy cnc construction really, and a nice usage of 2 dead cdroms
[03:46:23] <creep> does the "dude" still have eyesight? :)
[03:47:01] <theBear> yeah man... c'mon, some of us been working on live cd lasers since the early 90s, 'everyone' knows not to be stupid by now
[03:47:04] <theBear> :)
[03:47:30] <creep> i'm not so sure about that, take a ppek at youtube
[03:47:36] <creep> peek
[03:48:27] <creep> they are posting videos of playing around with 100mW+ lasers even without any safety googles
[03:48:53] <creep> even small reflected beams will burn tiny holes in their retinas
[03:49:20] <creep> and the new cool stuff is the "UV lazer"
[03:49:33] <creep> it damages eyes by only looking at the beam
[03:49:40] <theBear> yeah but notice that 'smart' people like us don't have time to blind ourselves on youtube because we're actually thinking and doing things :)
[03:50:30] <theBear> and those of us who worked on them privately and/or professionally more than a couple times tend to have 'proper' goggles or homemade filters (technically proper tho) of several kinds :)
[03:50:41] <creep> they don't just blind themselves, they will also lose the chance of easily deleting their stupid videos from youtube when they go blind
[03:52:13] <theBear> few years ago at work i did a rgb one with the biggest laser being 200mW from memory, all pure visible and VERY chinese, seems last few years a LOT of people have gotten away with direct importing from ebay sales in china to here.. legally you can't operate ANY laser in public here without a license, council approval/application for the specific time/place AND a local council representative seeing and approving your setup before any members of the public
[03:52:14] <theBear> are present !
[04:03:14] <creep> this is because people are retarded
[04:03:42] <creep> they did point 125mW green lazer sword onti police helicopter, and planes
[04:04:05] <creep> this is considered terrorist activity by the US now
[04:04:56] <creep> pointing your new high power lazer is very c00l too according to youtube
[04:05:12] <theBear> yeah, and now there's all these laws like i mentioned earlier.... in another state you can only legally buy/carry one if you have proof of valid reasons, ie. are some kinda research scientist... otherwise it's considered carrying a concealed weapon, which is WAAAY more serious here than in us where weapon licenses are common
[04:05:20] <creep> straight up to the sky
[04:06:40] <theBear> it is KINDA cool the first time you laser a cloud, but pointing them at planes and helichopters is just silly
[04:07:26] <creep> hit a NASA satellite CCD and WIN big time
[04:07:28] <creep> :)
[04:07:41] <theBear> lol 100,000 points and cunning stunt bonus
[04:08:11] <theBear> i needs more coffee... i feel, less than energetic 'thismorning'
[05:34:09] <inflex> theBear: or 2kV to the nuts
[05:34:38] <theBear> nah, i don't think i need that :)
[06:14:32] <r00t^home> creep: oMg3mV!
[06:16:00] <creep> r00t^home<< take a pt100 :)
[06:16:06] <creep> now a deep breath
[06:16:34] <creep> recommended drive current: 0.1-1mA(max) :)
[06:16:57] <creep> 3mV > 10C error
[06:29:34] <theBear> erm, how are you connecting the sensor ? and you sure it's 10deg ? as far as current limits/recommendations on sensors, it's only self-heating that is a problem, and well, 3mV probably doesn't do much of that... what is a pt100 ? nominal 100r resistive sensor or ?
[06:33:06] <creep> theBear<< that is a platinum resistance temperature sensor that has 100 ohm resistance at 0C
[06:34:16] <creep> theBear<< i'm sure yes
[06:35:51] <theBear> how you connecting ? if you wanna be accurate you wanna do a differential connection kinda setup, and chances are that internal offset is gonna affect that much less and possible be fairly similar across both inputs to begin with
[06:36:25] <creep> theBear<< i do not think that should be a problem if i have 5cm of wire :)
[06:37:04] <theBear> it's not about the wire, it's about things like amount of current you need to pull to get a usable output, and equally about things like input offsets
[06:37:05] <creep> but yeah, go 4 wire, and it will be cool
[06:37:25] <creep> well the one i used said 1mA max
[06:37:27] <theBear> there are a lot of reasons other than cancelling noise to use differential circuits
[06:37:52] <theBear> you mean a wheatstone bridge ? or does this sensor have more than 2 connections ?
[06:38:03] <creep> they use very thin platinum :P platinum is not cheap
[06:38:54] <creep> theBear<< a pt100 is a piece of platinum wire if you want to know how it works
[06:38:55] <theBear> sidenote: with resistive temp sensors the 'limit' is arbitrarily chosen against the desired accuracy, even on TINY sensors the physical damage limit will be 'huge' compared to the selfheating/accuracy limit
[06:39:35] <theBear> just when you said 4wire, that sounds like a classic wheatstone setup to me, unless you got some other weird idea where 4 wires will somehow help account for the offsets
[06:40:26] <creep> i thought you mean canceling the effect of wire resistances
[06:40:29] <theBear> angon tho, you said 3mV from 5v to 12v, surely you aren't having that kind of swing on your sensor
[06:40:54] <creep> theBear<< no, that is an OPAMP power input supply
[06:41:05] <theBear> no, i meant cancelling the effect of offsets, both mathematically (what the opamps sees) and to some extent or other making the sensor 'not see them', depending on how you set it up
[06:43:34] <creep> and i said OPAMP has 3mV "difference in offset voltage" operated on 5V, and 12V
[06:43:55] <creep> and i mean this as : 5V/ 1mV -12V 4mV
[06:44:14] <creep> this causes problems even if you try to cancel the offset
[06:45:05] <creep> so precision opamps is the way... i just don't have any now
[06:45:11] <theBear> oh, i get it, regardless, using both + and - inputs is the 'right' way to do this kind of thing, tho various arrangements can be used
[06:46:33] <theBear> maybe not precision, 324 are far from modern or high quality, and rif learned for us the other day that they don't NEARLY work right with 5v or even 12v across them for most inputs... perhaps try something modern like a 5532 or even tl072/4 ... in general jfet inputs probably helps in a few ways too
[06:47:16] <creep> those are not better in terms of offset voltage
[06:47:25] <theBear> also 'sneaky' arrangements like wheatstone bridges can help a lot in avoiding all kinds of tolerances
[06:47:35] <creep> and the outpus stage of the tl072 is just crap
[06:47:41] <theBear> have you tried them ?
[06:47:54] <creep> read the datasheets, will do?
[06:48:16] <creep> i have some laying around, but never used them for anything serious
[06:48:17] <theBear> it might be technically crap, i forgot what it looks like, but they do a fine job of many things, tho they are ANCIENT designs, ne553? not so much
[06:48:36] <creep> the 5532 is an audio opamp too, you can have like 10mV offset fro mthat
[06:49:22] <Horologium> creep, your temp sensor...is it anything like a K-type thermocouple?
[06:49:23] <creep> no matter how it looks like really, it needs very precision trimming to get <1mV offset
[06:49:37] <theBear> i'd say have a look at some normal-cost fet input opamps, at least the datasheets
[06:49:50] <creep> Horologium<< yes, but it is only a piece of wire and measures temperature with resistance change
[06:50:12] <Horologium> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/22058c.pdf
[06:50:17] <Horologium> opamp made just for that.
[06:50:29] <creep> and it measures absolute temperature, no cold junction compensation needed
[06:50:43] <creep> i wouldn1t get anything microchip
[06:50:48] <Horologium> http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en535934
[06:50:59] <creep> but saw some at ti,
[06:51:00] <Horologium> they do make some nice gear.
[06:51:11] <Horologium> but, to each their own.
[06:51:15] <creep> Horologium<< okey, i just prefer reliability over price
[06:52:23] <creep> but i assume you prefer atmel vs pic too :) for various reasons
[06:54:15] <Horologium> actually, I use whatever chip works best for the project at hand.
[06:54:35] <Horologium> generally I prefer AVR over PIC but PIC does have some things that I like sometimes..
[06:54:53] <Horologium> like the 32bit pic chip with usb in a 28 pin dip package.
[06:55:37] <Horologium> and I use 8051/8052 chips on occasion as well....them having external program and data space interfaces so I can run code from sram or nvsram.
[06:56:54] <creep> like an fpga
[06:57:40] <[1]MrMobius> Horologium, which 8051s?
[07:29:58] <Horologium> MrMobius, ds89c450
[07:30:33] <Horologium> maxim/dallas
[07:42:09] <creep> what material would you suggest for insulating an IR oven ?
[07:42:38] <creep> the walls are made of thin metal sheet and just conduct heat out
[07:50:28] <theBear> generally the best insulation for heat is 2 layers with either airgap or some 'fluffy' thermally insulating material
[07:51:05] <theBear> i suppose ideally you want reflective surfaces on the inside tho, at least shiny metal vs painted
[07:51:28] <creep> it is fairly reflective, thin metal sheet, no IR leaks through it
[07:52:17] <creep> so i should not mount any electronics in the "insulating area" then
[07:53:54] <theBear> that's about as good as you get without being excessive about it, so next 'best practice' is a 2nd layer of box with maybe 2-3cm gap, and better if the gap is filled with something very non thermally conductive, ie. house insulation or pulverised/shredded cardboard (tho you would need fire retardant) or fibreglass wadding... on reflection house insulation probably melts at those temps if it isn't rockwool, and whatever the insulating material is, don't co
[07:53:54] <theBear> mpress it or you radically reduce the thermal resistance
[07:55:26] <creep> i'm concerned about fiberglass in food
[07:55:27] <theBear> no, probably not, the idea is that even with insulating material in there that the inside surface/chamber will be as hot as the inside of the oven, the insulation just serves to make a gradient from that to the outside air, and by this not only keep the outside touchable, but help contain/reflect more heat back into the internal surface
[07:55:53] <theBear> mmm, the inside would need to be perfectly sealed for that to be safe, and the outside i suppose
[07:56:06] <creep> so a second layer of some metal sheet with spacers should do?
[07:56:08] <theBear> then again, any insulating material won't be good with food
[07:56:24] <creep> and cover every venting holes?
[07:56:26] <theBear> it'd certainly be MUCH better than no second layer, air isn't a great heat conductor
[07:56:26] <Horologium> ovens have fiberglass in them.
[07:56:39] <Horologium> but it's sealed away from the food areas pretty good.
[07:56:47] <creep> hm okey
[07:57:07] <theBear> fibreglass, even asbestos, isn't dangerous AT ALL so long as it's carefully sealed away and no particles can escape
[07:57:43] <creep> large project to seal that up good
[07:58:34] <theBear> maybe... i used to seal entire houses with tubes of goop now and again, but i'm not even sure what you could use on something like this... ooh, red 'gasket' (hitemp) silicone i guess
[07:58:57] <theBear> tho for that to look okay the top would need to only have seams underneath or maybe at the back
[07:59:00] <creep> i use that for sealing
[07:59:04] <theBear> top/outside layer
[07:59:10] <creep> good up to 250-300C
[07:59:24] <theBear> the one i got is rated for 550C working temp
[07:59:28] <creep> mm
[07:59:37] <creep> 550C silicone?
[07:59:52] <creep> i though 300C is some kind of limit
[07:59:58] <theBear> red silicone, not sure what they add/change in it... it's marketed for car engines
[08:00:05] <Horologium> yup.
[08:00:07] <Horologium> have a tube of that here.
[08:00:09] <Horologium> somewhere.
[08:00:14] <creep> sounds cool
[08:00:20] <creep> oh btw
[08:00:25] <Horologium> use it in place of gaskets.
[08:00:27] <theBear> i'm quite sure, i used to use it in hid lighting cm's away from 700C+ lamps
[08:00:32] <creep> there is some magic epoxy, but i assume not safe for foods
[08:00:39] <creep> called JB-Weld
[08:00:43] <Horologium> all kinds of magic epoxy.
[08:00:50] <Horologium> hehe...jb-weld is the force!
[08:00:52] <Horologium> it has a light side
[08:00:54] <Horologium> and a dark side
[08:00:56] <theBear> i'm no chemical expert, but i think epoxy is basically inert once it's set, assuming you mixed it right and it DID all set
[08:00:58] <Horologium> and it binds the universe together.
[08:01:00] <theBear> Horologium, hehe
[08:01:15] <creep> Horologium<< it is good like 500C i remeber :)
[08:01:17] <Horologium> even to fixing cracked car engine block water jackets.
[08:01:26] <theBear> it's not actually the jbweld that does it, but the tiny bacteria called midichlorians flowing through it :)
[08:01:34] <Horologium> on an oldsmobile 455 8-cylinder engine.
[08:02:04] <Horologium> it lasted at least 2 years that I know of...possibly longer as that's how long I kept it before selling the car.
[08:02:19] <creep> theBear<< ptfe is safe up to around 230C, above that it gives off exponentially more amounts of hazardous chemicals
[08:02:27] <creep> (teflon)
[08:02:44] <Horologium> and I use jb-quick in copiers at least once a week.
[08:03:02] <theBear> i have more than a few times used dobs of it to secure heatshield/"hot mirrors" a couple inches from huge 700w linear mh-hid lamps enclosed in VERY shiny reflectors with nothing inbetween, if the outside of those lamps is around 700-800C (which i believe, not cos i was told, but judging from the colour the glass glows if you turn one off and look straight away) it can't be much cooler
[08:03:15] <theBear> err, epoxy is ptfe ?
[08:03:58] <creep> theBear<< no, PolyTetraFluoroEthylene is teflon on your dishes
[08:04:16] <theBear> i know that, well, my pans, but i don't get them that hot
[08:04:32] <theBear> just seems odd to mention it out of the blue like that
[08:05:08] <Horologium> http://www.permatex.com/products/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-high-temp-red-rtv-silicone-gasket-detail this is what I have...but they make higher temp stuff.
[08:05:23] <creep> theBear<< well teflon is inert too, but up to a certain temperature - that was my point
[08:06:04] <creep> Horologium<< nice :) is is even food grade ? at least up to 300C?
[08:06:21] <Horologium> dunno bout food grade.
[08:06:32] <Horologium> I use it on oil and water pumps in cars and trucks.
[08:08:09] <Horologium> http://www.masterbond.com/properties/food-safe-adhesives-sealants-coatings-encapsulation-compounds
[08:08:14] <Horologium> check out their products.
[08:10:19] <Horologium> http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-37469-Hi-Temp-Sensor-Safe-Silicone/dp/B000FW4M34 or loctite...seems they make a lot of food safe bonding agents too.
[08:12:17] <creep> Horologium<< my red high temp silicone dies after i heat it with a 320C+ soldering iron for a while
[08:12:28] <creep> but definitely good enough for 250C at most
[08:13:08] <Horologium> should be.
[08:13:53] <creep> and i asuume food grade because usage states ovens, microwaves, stoves, cooking rings,...
[08:14:08] <Horologium> yup.
[08:14:31] <creep> i just dislike it because it is not 2 component
[08:14:31] <Horologium> once cured, RTV doesn't outgass much.
[08:14:35] <creep> ;/
[08:15:01] <creep> oh yes i read something like 150C for 8 hours to outgas it
[08:17:25] <creep> i should buy a ton of the superceramic that is used on the outer shell of the spaceships
[08:18:12] <creep> that would insulate an oven well
[08:26:51] <creep> hahaha i reached for a spare battery for my multimeter, and the untouched packaging says "use by 10 2010"
[08:32:51] <r00t^home> 9V?
[08:33:18] <creep> yes
[08:33:33] <creep> hm, it works... i'll just toss it when dies
[08:33:46] <creep> maybe i should hack a voltage measurement device together too ;/ even this $100 mastech multimeter measures random unconnected and not very accurate
[08:34:04] <creep> like with ti's 24 or 32 bit adcs
[08:37:10] <theBear> creep, oh... you gotta learn to make yer point better
[08:37:52] <creep> theBear<< i thought it was obvious
[08:38:19] <theBear> i wonder what is in this superceramic, cos apparently those ceramic heatsinks are pretty effective... i wouldn't be at all surprised if it was some kind of lattice/layered thing, perhaps with just airgaps
[08:38:25] <theBear> heh, nah, it wasn't obvious
[08:38:54] <creep> it is some extruded ceramic i guess ;)
[08:39:43] <creep> they can make rocks pop popcorn, and have holes inside
[08:40:03] <creep> *pop like a popcorn
[09:03:33] <jc5123> hello, I'd like to measure a 16.5V to 9.5V voltage window with a differential ADC in atmega32. Could anyone share a clue on how to calculate resistors for that please ?
[09:05:08] <Tom_itx> http://www.beyondttl.com/calculator-vdiv.php
[09:05:38] <jc5123> Tom_itx, not what I'm looking for. This involves 2 voltage dividers.
[09:07:13] <jc5123> I need to shift the 16.5V to 9.5V range into +2.495V to -2.495V voltage from output of one voltage divider to another
[09:07:32] <jc5123> so its measured from output of voltage divider one to output of voltage divider two
[09:08:08] <jc5123> and at the same time, I need both outputs of voltage divider to stay in 0-Vcc range (4.5V for safety)
[09:08:14] <jc5123> *dividers
[09:08:29] <jc5123> maybe I'm just too stupid. Is that even possible ?
[09:09:45] <jc5123> I tried using the calculator in this avrfreaks post but the problem is it doesn't constrain the outputs to 0-Vcc. It gave me way above Vcc values. http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=778164
[09:10:57] <Tom_itx> you're not gonna get a negative result unless you have a negative supply to work from
[09:11:06] <jc5123> not true
[09:11:33] <jc5123> Tom_itx, if output voltage of divider 1 is higher than divider 2, I get positive values and vice versa
[09:13:25] <rue_house> 16.5V to 9.5V range into +2.495V to -2.495V
[09:13:32] <rue_house> you need to shift and scale...
[09:14:07] <jc5123> please anyone who knows what a differential ADC actually is ?
[09:14:28] <Tom_itx> i think we both know what it is
[09:14:31] <rue_house> jc5123, yes, it takes the difference between the two signals
[09:14:34] <jc5123> screw it, I bet this is full of arduino folks
[09:15:00] <rue_house> jc5123, you need to scale/translate 16.5V to 9.5V range into +2.495V to -2.495V yes?
[09:15:07] <Tom_itx> i'm out the door
[09:15:20] <jc5123> rue_bed, no, I need to translate 16.5V to 9.5V range into two voltage outputs
[09:15:31] <rue_house> oh
[09:15:53] <rue_house> you need that range to go into a differential input
[09:16:03] <jc5123> rue_bed, difference in voltage of those two outputs has to be +2.495V when supply voltage is 16.5V and -2.495 when supply voltage is 9.5V
[09:16:14] <jc5123> rue_bed, yes, exactly
[09:16:31] <jc5123> rue_bed, but, at the same time, neither output voltage may be larger than 4.5V, ever
[09:16:37] <rue_house> why are you using a differenial adc?
[09:16:52] <jc5123> rue_bed, because I need to measure li-ion voltage drop very precisely
[09:17:16] <rue_house> but your source is only single ended...
[09:17:24] <jc5123> rue_bed, what ?
[09:17:57] <jc5123> rue_bed, differential ADCs are commonly used for voltage windows. But since I have differential ADC in the avr, the inputs are limited to 0-Vcc
[09:17:58] <rue_house> diff signals dont make much sense if they come from a single ended input
[09:18:09] <rue_house> yes
[09:18:58] <jc5123> rue_bed, not true, with single ended inputs, you can measure from GND to Vmax only, so anything below 9.5V just screws up the resolution
[09:19:05] <jc5123> rue_bed, sorry, that was for rue_house
[09:19:05] <rue_house> you have 1 wire that, from ground goes from 9.5V(dead) to 16.5V(charged) you want to feed it into an adc that goes 0-5V
[09:19:34] <jc5123> rue_house, but with differential adc, you can 'say' where the lower boundary is. It can be higher than GND
[09:19:47] <rue_house> the input voltage range per pin on the diff adc is still 0-5
[09:20:34] <rue_house> the ideal case for diff adc on the avr is a wien bridge
[09:20:51] <jc5123> rue_house, if you're inetersted in how voltage windows are measured with a differential ADC, check out the paper in this post: http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=778164
[09:21:56] <jc5123> well, I don't know. when you remove the 0-Vcc constraint it works just fine
[09:22:17] <rue_house> dont care what they say, if you have an diff adc, you still cant input anything to the pins thats outside the 0-5V
[09:22:21] <jc5123> I wonder if it can work with that constraint just by recalculating the resistor values, but I'm too stupid for complex formul
[09:22:35] <jc5123> rue_house, that's what voltage dividers are for
[09:22:54] <rue_house> yes, but its still single ended
[09:23:08] <jc5123> rue_house, please read the paper
[09:23:16] <rue_house> ah, wait, I see a way of doing what your after
[09:23:24] <rue_house> I did, its imcomplete
[09:23:38] <jc5123> rue_house, in what way ?
[09:23:46] <rue_house> give me a min to do some math
[09:23:56] <jc5123> rue_house, ok, thanks for the attempt
[09:24:17] <rue_house> first we scale 17V to 5V
[09:24:24] <rue_house> use that for the positive input
[09:24:42] <rue_house> we need a voltage divider of 3.39
[09:24:45] <theBear> trust me, rue knows as much about voltage windows and differential inputs as any paper, it's not a huge field to understand completely
[09:25:38] <rue_house> zippo:/files/programming/c/resistor# ./R2
[09:25:39] <rue_house> +V
[09:25:39] <rue_house> R2
[09:25:39] <rue_house> VR1
[09:25:39] <rue_house> R1
[09:25:39] <rue_house> GND
[09:25:41] <rue_house> Divider supply: 17
[09:25:43] <rue_house> bottom resistor: 1000
[09:25:45] <rue_house> divider output: 5
[09:25:47] <rue_house> R2 is :2400.000000
[09:25:49] <rue_house> R2 dissipates 0.060000w
[09:25:53] <rue_house> R1 dissipates 0.025000w
[09:26:15] <rue_house> jc5123, for the divider on the + input from the battery, use a voltge divider make of a 1k and a 2.4k resistor, 1/4W will do
[09:26:32] <jc5123> oh yeah !
[09:26:52] <jc5123> actually if I scale 17V down to 5V and feed THAT to the calculator, that could work
[09:26:54] <rue_house> the second step is to calculate and set up a voltage divider thats at the right voltage when the positive input is at 9.5V
[09:27:04] <jc5123> so its definitely doable
[09:27:19] <jc5123> but I wonder if it's doable with just 4 resistors, the more precision the better :)
[09:27:48] <rue_house> we dont acutally calculate that divider tho, you set up a pot voltage divider on the - input and adjust it to the following voltage...
[09:27:53] <jc5123> rue_house, thanks for the vital clue
[09:28:33] <rue_house> zippo:/files/programming/c/resistor# python
[09:28:34] <rue_house> Python 2.3.3 (#2, Apr 18 2004, 20:32:34)
[09:28:34] <rue_house> [GCC 3.3.2 (Debian)] on linux2
[09:28:34] <rue_house> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
[09:28:34] <rue_house> >>> 9.5/3.4
[09:28:37] <rue_house> 2.7941176470588238
[09:28:38] <rue_house> (volts)
[09:28:43] <jc5123> rue_house, you got a paypal donation thingy somewhere? :)
[09:28:58] <rue_house> hah, nevermind, I do this stuff every day
[09:29:08] <rue_house> the hardest part is working out what your going on about
[09:29:38] <rue_house> so do you understand, the 1k and 2.4k on the + input, and 2.794V ont eh - input
[09:30:02] <rue_house> +5v ---/\/\/\/\/\----gnd
[09:30:08] <rue_house> ^ - input
[09:30:16] <Horologium> and,,,accusing us of being ardweenies! that could get you hanged in here...or worse.
[09:30:17] <rue_house> adjust to correct voltage
[09:30:37] <jc5123> Horologium, I'm glad you're not ;P
[09:30:41] * rue_house hates arduino cause nobody knows what an avr is...
[09:30:57] <Horologium> rue_house, same here...
[09:31:00] <jc5123> good point, they won't ever find this channel, lol
[09:31:19] <rue_house> I'm off to work, later!
[09:31:19] <Horologium> did a lesson with AVRs a while back...the group called me back and asked me to teach them arduino as they had all gone out and bought arduinos.
[09:31:20] <jc5123> thanks a lot, I got it, rue_house :)
[09:31:48] <Horologium> told them where to put the dweenies.
[09:33:03] <MrMobius> Horologium, i was looking at those but the ones from 8051s but then i found STC12LE5A60S2 and similar ones from STC. any reason you like the dallas one better?
[09:33:36] <Horologium> MrMobius, well,,,several reasons why I like it.
[09:33:44] <rue_house> I should trim the wattage on my calc to 3 digits
[09:33:46] <Horologium> can't say it's better than the STC one...never looked at that.
[09:33:47] <Horologium> but
[09:34:14] <rue_house> NXP made a sweeet 8051, they dont anymore
[09:34:36] <rue_house> little bootloader in it that is nice, allows serial download, with autobaud
[09:34:39] <Horologium> reasons why I like it, free samples, built in autobaud serial bootloader that will even write to external memory, dip package, high speed core(4 clocks instead of 12 for normal 8052), and,,,free samples.
[09:35:03] <rue_house> *blink*
[09:35:06] <MrMobius> Horologium, 4 clocks? I thought it was 1 clock per cycle
[09:35:20] <Horologium> or maybe it's 1 vs 4
[09:35:21] <rue_house> some 8051 have a x4 switch
[09:35:42] <rue_house> backwards compat is 4clock/cycle, they cant do 1
[09:35:46] <Horologium> either way it's faster than the 8051 standard clock for clock,,,and can be switched between fast and standard mode.
[09:35:46] <rue_house> er can do 1
[09:35:49] <MrMobius> both the STC one and the dallas one can do about one instruction per cycle
[09:36:05] <Horologium> ok...so it's 1/4,,not 4/12....still early.
[09:36:28] <MrMobius> 1/4?
[09:36:39] <rue_house> 1 instruction / 4 clocks
[09:36:46] <rue_house> opposed to the origional 12
[09:36:58] <MrMobius> no, 1 instruction / 1 clock
[09:37:12] <rue_house> instructions/cycles/clockcycles,
[09:37:17] <rue_house> all different
[09:37:21] <Horologium> yeah....
[09:37:29] <MrMobius> oh i misunderstood you hen
[09:37:43] <Horologium> the 89c450 can run 4 times as fast as a baseline 8051 at the same clock speed.
[09:37:51] <Horologium> apparently many of them do these days.
[09:37:58] <Horologium> that STC chip..is it still made?
[09:38:05] <MrMobius> according to the website it runs about 10x faster
[09:38:08] <MrMobius> Horologium, yes
[09:38:43] <rue_house> ** I only look to 8051 cause of a parallel external bus, this IS avr!
[09:38:51] <MrMobius> can you tell me the difference between cycles an clockcycles then?maybe i dont understand
[09:39:06] <Horologium> rue_house, I use 8051 for the external program and data space bus, yes...
[09:39:33] <MrMobius> rue_house, ya, i was just curious because Horologium had mentioned it and i was thinking about investing in some for a project
[09:40:43] <MrMobius> these are the ones i was looking at http://www.stc-51.com/stc12c5a08s2.php
[09:44:42] <Horologium> looks like much the same chip as the ds89c450.
[09:45:28] <MrMobius> ya, they both looked good. i thought maybe you knew about it since youve used the ds89c450
[09:45:40] <MrMobius> how much did you pay for yours? itlooks like they are $20+ on mouser
[09:46:59] <Horologium> nothing.
[09:47:04] <Horologium> free samples.
[09:47:24] <Horologium> major deciding factor in my hobby work.
[09:48:21] <MrMobius> ah ok. did you tell them you were a hobbyst?
[09:50:10] <Horologium> yeah....riiiiight.
[09:50:22] <MrMobius> hehe
[09:51:13] <Horologium> free samples from maxim/dallas, atmel, microchip, ti, pactec, allegro-micro, and others have kept me in my hobby for a while now.
[09:51:53] <MrMobius> i dunno why it makes me feel weird to make up a country name
[09:53:14] <MrMobius> woops, country=company
[09:53:22] <MrMobius> dunno if i could get away with making up my own country :P
[09:59:30] <jc5123> MrMobius, you could just fill in your employer. After all, you're not telling them if its you or the employer that wants to evaluate the part, lol
[10:00:00] <jc5123> but Zend actually called me once
[10:00:06] <jc5123> pretty awkward
[10:00:44] <MrMobius> haha
[10:01:18] <MrMobius> my employer has nothing to do with technology so i dunno what theyd say :P
[10:01:23] <MrMobius> what did you sau to Zend?
[10:02:05] <jc5123> MrMobius, well they wanted to know whether I'm some kind of manager. I wasn't at the time. And that basically ended the conversation, lol
[10:03:04] <MrMobius> thats not too bad i guess. at least they didnt ask what you were using them for
[10:03:40] <Horologium> oh, microchip and atmel have both called me.
[10:03:53] <jc5123> well it was just zend studio evaluation (software) so it didn't cost them anything per se
[10:03:54] <Horologium> heck, I even took an atmel rep out to lunch once.
[10:04:04] <jc5123> lol srsly ?
[10:04:10] <Horologium> yup.
[10:04:15] <Horologium> she was kinda hot too.
[10:04:28] <Horologium> too bad I was married...and 15 years older than her.
[10:04:44] <jc5123> I had a long conversation with an atmel rep. The guy I talked to really knew his stuff. And he offered me (knowing I'm a hobbyist) an fpslic devboard they had lying around
[10:04:55] <Horologium> nicek
[10:05:13] <Horologium> I have a couple of those chips but the software for programming them was windows only and has since expired and I can't find it again.
[10:05:20] <Horologium> it was a 60 day evaluation pack.
[10:05:30] <Horologium> don't think they even make those things anymore.
[10:05:38] <Horologium> which is a shame as they were nifty little chips.
[10:06:34] <jc5123> yeah, to bad no fpga/cpld I know of has open source programmability :(
[10:06:49] <jc5123> *too
[10:07:43] <Horologium> and darned few can be done on linux easily either.
[10:07:52] <Horologium> either/too
[10:08:00] <jc5123> MrMobius, I bet their policy toward hobbyists is pretty good. In my case it even paid off for them already :) But I guess they have no way of knowing that.
[10:08:03] <Horologium> this headache is kicking my ass.
[10:09:10] <MrMobius> interesting. a lot of people i talked to just said you have no chance if youre a hobbyist.
[10:09:38] <Horologium> depends on the company.
[10:09:48] <Horologium> atmel has recently gotten very hobbyist friendly it seems.
[10:09:50] <jc5123> MrMobius, maybe if you want to do it 'correctly', try calling them? :) I bet they'll probably give you something
[10:10:28] <theBear> and personally i'm quite against your 'average' hobbiest constantly abusing sample systems, because as a professional it makes it harder and harder to get samples for the right reasons as the years pass by...
[10:11:16] <jc5123> theBear, I bet they have good safeguards against abuse
[10:11:28] <theBear> if a hobbiest is honestly considering buying at least a handful of something, and don't lie about being a hobbiest, i'm fine with it, but so many make up business names and details and lie about the purpose for the sampling and generally get all kinds of crap they're never even going to use, letalone buy
[10:12:04] <theBear> jc5123, some more than others, but it's hard for some big foreign electronics manufacturer/designer to track down/confirm a business in a faraway country
[10:12:55] <jc5123> I'd really like to get a vary high bandwidth/sample rate/precision digital storage oscilloscope sample, lol
[10:13:14] <theBear> heh, wouldn't we all :)
[10:14:32] <MrMobius> yeah, abusing the system is crappy. maybe i should call them.
[10:15:18] <jc5123> I wouldn't say its exactly abuse. You could end up in a position where you design a thing that uses knowledge you gained thanks to their sample, using their technology. Like me :)
[10:15:23] <theBear> who ? team-america ? tell them people have been abusing the sample system ? <grin>
[10:15:51] <theBear> jc5123, it's abuse if you have to lie to them in order to get that sample... if you are honest and they think like what you just said that's just fine
[10:16:20] <jc5123> then they possibly gain a huge profit against sample cost ratio on just one hobbyist
[10:16:39] <jc5123> if they didn't have the sample system they wouldn't. I think it can work.
[10:16:49] <MrMobius> i dunno about the hige profit part
[10:16:56] <jc5123> theBear, yeah.. true that. I'd never lie
[10:17:32] <jc5123> MrMobius, what I meant was huge profit for their investment (giving away a sample)
[10:17:51] <MrMobius> not really
[10:18:00] <theBear> in the business world, bigger companies are usually happy if they make ANY net profit from something like a sample, even if it's less than a single sale of the same product would make them... they know that part of their profit is about volume, and more importantly that things like sample programs encourage loyalty to their brand
[10:18:17] <MrMobius> im sure it costs them a lot to hire people to deal with the sample stuff. imagine sending out ilke 100 samples and someone ends up buying 1000s
[10:18:40] <MrMobius> ya thats a good point
[10:18:52] <jc5123> I bet that can be reasonably computerized so that just a few people can do it
[10:19:05] <MrMobius> atmel has the word "architected" on their webpage
[10:19:10] <theBear> and so long as the whole system isn't abused, they're happy even if the odd sample doesn't return them some business, it still makes them look good in the eyes of the person who got the sample, and perhaps even tells them that their product could be better... lot cheaper than a market research company :)
[10:19:33] <theBear> err, is that a word ?
[10:19:40] <theBear> is that what architects do all day ?
[10:19:58] <MrMobius> i guess one can "architect"
[10:22:46] <jc5123> well I'm off to architect some burgers, lol
[10:24:28] <theBear> hehe
[12:04:34] <creep> nah i have calibrated the IR oven from -3.86C to 242C
[12:05:11] <theBear> wow, that's impressive, an uncalibrated ir source making almost -4 degrees !
[12:05:47] <creep> :)
[12:06:57] <creep> it will use vacuum-energy to suck heat out of the oven chamber
[12:07:15] <theBear> i bet you could make ice real quick with a big enough one <grin>
[12:10:28] <Horologium> don't you just reverse the polarity of the IR flow to get cooling effect?
[12:14:57] <theBear> that only works on things like leds, on traditional ones you gotta keep the polarity the same but send it a negative voltage :)
[12:17:02] <creep> 3 minutes 30C-180C & 7 minutes 30C to 240C with regulation
[12:17:57] <creep> it is a relaxed ramp up i think, 0.8C/s
[12:20:18] <creep> Horologium<< no, you should reverse current flow, while maintaining same voltage and get negative power from the lamp
[12:22:05] <creep> feeding vacuum energy in the IR lamp would do that
[12:30:41] <Malinuss> what is it that happens if a interrupt fires while inside a interrupt?
[12:30:46] <Malinuss> I can't quiet remember...
[12:31:14] <Malinuss> will the interrupt be "saved" for later (when the current on is finished), or will it never fire?
[12:31:20] <creep> is there anything happening ?
[12:31:38] <Malinuss> creep, eh?
[12:32:05] <creep> i think i'd put a busy flag in it that prevents double interupting
[12:32:12] <creep> seems logical
[12:32:30] <Malinuss> creep, but you are not sure? So it just fires the interrupt after the current one is finished, right?
[12:33:08] <creep> Malinuss<< i think if it would do that it were a bug
[12:33:24] <creep> ( double trigger)
[12:34:01] <Malinuss> creep, yeah I know it won't trigger interrupts inside interrupts... I'm just wondering when the interrupt that should have been trigger willl get triggeret....
[12:36:16] <creep> interrupt queue, never used that before
[12:36:35] <Malinuss> I don't think you "use" it, it does it by itself..
[12:36:41] <creep> well it could do that
[12:36:57] <theBear> err, pretty sure while nothing happens if it's the same interrupt, not sure about a different one, but the long version datasheets explain all that stuff in the interrupt section(s)
[12:40:12] <creep> do you think i should remove the feature to maintain stable temperature while the chamber door is opened?
[12:41:03] <creep> ( it instantly starts to feed more and more power to the IR lamps )
[12:50:25] <RikusW> anyone ever played around with Thermoelectric generators ?
[12:50:39] <creep> Horologium theBear what do you think?
[12:50:53] <creep> RikusW<< what ? peltier elements? yes
[12:51:17] <creep> they work in reverse with like 5% efficiency.
[12:52:12] <RikusW> yep
[12:52:13] <creep> and cooling with 80-85%
[12:52:33] <RikusW> thats better :)
[12:52:43] <RikusW> if you want a refrigerator that is
[12:52:48] <creep> not really
[12:52:56] <theBear> i think it sounds cool, and maybe i need to go to hospimable
[12:53:10] <creep> refrigerators have around 5x more efficiency
[12:54:24] <theBear> where do you come from creep ? what's yer native tongue ?
[12:55:00] <theBear> re: interrupt comment a while back, on same interrupt firing while being serviced, that's why you need to clear the interrupt flag after you service it
[12:55:18] <creep> theBear<< they say it is the hardest language around
[12:55:47] <creep> magyar
[12:56:06] <creep> HU
[12:56:09] <theBear> ahh fairynuff... that explains a lot
[12:56:27] <theBear> and 'talking' in text doesn't make it any easier, even for natives
[12:56:33] <RikusW> http://thermoelectric.alignsourcing.com/item/thermoelectric-generators-and-assemblies-teg-/thermoelectric-generator-assembly-teg-/teb-490-2?#
[12:56:38] <RikusW> 76W
[12:56:45] <RikusW> $100
[12:57:15] <creep> theBear<< makes no big difference for me
[12:57:31] <theBear> creep, except you take things like what RikusW just said literally, for example
[12:58:14] <creep> theBear<< peltier coolers and peltier generators are the EXACT same thing
[12:58:37] <creep> i have a 75W too
[12:58:42] <theBear> i meant about the fridge..
[12:59:32] <theBear> and technically we call them peltier devices, regardless of which way up they are
[13:00:19] <theBear> technically they don't cool or heat (apart from efficiency losses) but just generate a gradient
[13:00:26] <creep> theBear<< english is your native language ?
[13:00:29] <theBear> a delta if you will
[13:00:38] <theBear> yeah, tho i dabble in many
[13:01:16] <theBear> none of the same root as yours tho..
[13:01:46] <RikusW> theBear: like the native Australian languages ?
[13:02:42] <creep> theBear<< yes, things in real world work usually like that, nature demands a balance, you cool something, you must heat up something else
[13:04:30] <theBear> lol nah, i hardly even know any words or 'english' slang from them.. things like german, french, japanese and spanish i can usually understand others conversation reasonably, and make myself understood on a good day... few words in mandarin, no cantonese tho
[13:05:19] <theBear> creep, i suppose, peltier just makes it so very direct, things like compressor based cooling are much more abstracted
[13:05:55] <theBear> interesting... cooling demands a balance, but heat often begets heat.. maybe we're just "doing it wrong" so far
[13:06:45] <theBear> not that leds make cold in any way, but they sure jumped way up towards theoretical max efficiency over the last couple decades, but we have used and still do use a LOT of less efficient methods to make light
[13:07:10] <theBear> sweet zombie jesus this pain is killing me
[13:07:18] <creep> yes, the fridge does not operate at 350% efficiency, it just... redirects the heat
[13:07:38] <theBear> two more pills then if that don't work i'm goin to hospital
[13:07:45] <creep> like the water pump pumping water
[13:08:01] <theBear> which water pump ?
[13:08:08] <creep> any
[13:08:27] <theBear> err, i'm confused
[13:09:24] <creep> ok
[13:09:26] <RikusW> "programming is like sex, one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life" :-p
[13:14:11] <theBear> rofl
[13:36:14] <tzanger> RikusW: yeah that's one of my favourites
[13:36:46] <tzanger> in other news, it seems that ~50us might be too fast a rise time on an AVR reset line
[13:38:28] <tzanger> my reset pulse width can be seconds long, it doesn't seem to come out of reset nicely or consistently
[13:38:55] <tzanger> just a 0.1uF cap to ground with a switch across it and a 1k resistor from RESET# to 5V
[13:39:02] <tzanger> it's a nice clean rise on the scope
[13:53:26] * RikusW never had reset issues with AVR
[13:53:38] <RikusW> I only put a 10k pullup on it
[13:53:43] <RikusW> sometime nothing at all
[13:54:16] <RikusW> though I never checked reset timings closely either
[13:54:24] <RikusW> don't care...
[13:54:37] <RikusW> not for now...
[13:56:16] <OndraSter> yep
[13:56:23] <OndraSter> there is .. 20 - 50k internall pullup
[14:02:30] <Horologium> Malinuss, while inside an interrupt I think global interrupts are disabled.
[14:03:23] <Horologium> and they queue up I do believe.
[14:03:52] <Horologium> what chip?
[14:04:26] <Horologium> creep, as for the oven door thingie...ummm...I would maintain it at a certain level maybe but not full blast until the door is closed again.
[14:04:42] <Horologium> and if the door is open for a certain amount of time, like, more than 3 to 5 minutes, then shut down.
[14:05:21] <tzanger> heh
[14:05:24] <OndraSter> <Horologium> Malinuss, while inside an interrupt I think global interrupts are disabled.
[14:05:25] <OndraSter> indeed
[14:05:26] <OndraSter> on megas
[14:05:31] <tzanger> I blew open 5 2n3904 transistors
[14:05:37] <tzanger> quietly, but still blew them all up
[14:05:38] <OndraSter> <Horologium> and they queue up I do believe.
[14:05:39] <OndraSter> yes
[14:05:46] <tzanger> interrupts don't queue
[14:05:46] <OndraSter> and then they execute in the order by #
[14:05:53] <OndraSter> "queue"
[14:06:00] <Malinuss> OndraSter, what about tinys?
[14:06:00] <OndraSter> they wait for I flag
[14:06:04] <OndraSter> same for tinies
[14:06:09] <Horologium> tzanger, try blowing up an amd xp2000 processor.
[14:06:13] <tzanger> they are all pending and when interupts are reenabled the lowest priority one that is still flagged executes
[14:06:14] <Horologium> it is,,,impressive..
[14:06:24] <tzanger> Horologium: nah, that'd be a bitch to unsolder and resolder
[14:06:30] <Horologium> socketed dude.
[14:06:31] <OndraSter> xmegas have got multilevel, that is why I always say "mega"
[14:06:31] <Malinuss> OndraSter, so the flags will never get cleared? Also thanks.
[14:06:44] <OndraSter> Malinuss, they will get cleared once the interrupt executes
[14:06:54] <Horologium> turned the machine on, not knowing one of the other techs had "borrowed" the heatsink.
[14:07:01] <OndraSter> haha Horologium
[14:07:08] <Horologium> scared the shit out of me.
[14:07:18] <OndraSter> last AMD without thermal overheat protection
[14:07:46] <Horologium> overheat and explosion was about 2 seconds from hitting the power button.
[14:08:07] <Malinuss> OndraSter, but no other way the can get cleared by hardware? I know I could clear them by hand, but even if a interrupt took something like 500ms, and in the meantime 10 other interrupts would have been set to trigger, I have nothing to worry about?
[14:08:31] <OndraSter> no
[14:08:39] <Malinuss> okay, thanks again OndraSter
[14:08:49] <Horologium> Malinuss, looks like they just set their interrupt flags...so when it returns the interrupt handler just looks and says,,here's another one, go do it!
[14:09:02] <OndraSter> np Malinuss
[14:09:05] <OndraSter> indeed Horologium
[14:09:28] <Horologium> it does execute an instruction or so between interrupts though I think....haven't looked at that very close lately.
[14:09:40] <OndraSter> check datasheet
[14:09:41] <OndraSter> it is there
[14:09:42] <Horologium> have been doing most of my supercritical timing stuff with discreet chips these days.
[14:09:43] <OndraSter> interrupt timings
[14:10:37] <Horologium> building an 800x600 vga generator with serial srams, 74hct series chips, and a 40mhz canned oscillator.
[14:10:44] <OndraSter> :o
[14:10:54] <Horologium> using an avr to fire the timings and update the srams during vertical blanking.
[14:11:29] <Horologium> and/or double buffering and updating one bank while the other is displaying.
[14:11:42] <Horologium> the serial sram chips can clock out at 20MHz, steady stream of bits..
[14:11:51] <Horologium> so, interleaving them gives me 40MHz output.
[14:12:33] <Horologium> if I ever get the danged thing working the way I want it I'm gonna post it online somewhere.
[14:12:50] <Horologium> today, however, I am making large quantities of sawdust..
[14:13:09] <Horologium> taking breaks between sheets of paneling.
[14:17:07] <Malinuss> Horologium, sounds cool, gow well does it work? Are you making some kind of console? what would be the "main chip"?
[14:17:55] <Horologium> right now the main controller is an atmega1284p.
[14:18:16] <Horologium> it is part of a neuvo retro computer system under design.
[14:18:20] <Malinuss> Horologium, if you used something more powerfull you could just make your own computer ;D
[14:18:25] <Horologium> which has been "under design" for some time.
[14:18:27] <Malinuss> Horologium, link?
[14:18:28] <theBear> that sounds awesome... how does serial sram work, just a fifo of X length or ?
[14:18:29] <Horologium> I am making my own computer.
[14:18:47] <Horologium> theBear, spi sram...but can be set to just clock out bits directly..
[14:18:58] <theBear> heh, add a few hundred k ram and it's already way more powerful than any xt pc
[14:19:00] <Horologium> no link yet...very little written down.
[14:19:13] <Horologium> actually, the chips I'm using are 1Mbit chips.
[14:19:18] <theBear> Horologium, err, when/how do you write to it then ?
[14:19:30] <theBear> probly most 286's too
[14:19:47] <Malinuss> OndraSter, eh I know I could propably look this up in the datasheet, but any idea how long it takes from a interrupt flag to trigger, to the first instruction from the interrupt to be done? Does it have to copy the stack or somethign like that? Any estimate?
[14:20:10] <OndraSter> copy the stack?
[14:20:13] <OndraSter> I think 3 cycles
[14:20:14] <Horologium> theBear, spi port on the avr...
[14:20:15] <OndraSter> afk
[14:20:22] <theBear> Malinuss, have you even looked at the datasheets ? unless atmel have gone to shit all this stuff is explained in huge detail and very simple to understand
[14:20:32] <Horologium> switch between clock out mode and spi interface.
[14:20:48] <tzanger> Malinuss: what are you working on that you are concerned over cycle counts?
[14:20:56] <tzanger> it almost always means you're approaching it wrong
[14:20:57] <theBear> erm, but, during that period the screen will be blank
[14:21:15] <Horologium> hence the writing during vertical blanking time
[14:21:25] <Horologium> or double buffering and writing one buffer while the other is displaying.
[14:21:47] <tzanger> and yes it's in the data sheet, which if you truly need that info you'd have already obtained as well as the instruction cycle times which are in another datasheet
[14:21:52] <theBear> oh, i missed that, but umm, won't you only be able to write as fast as you can output ? ie. vertical blanking is several hundred lines too short
[14:22:10] <tzanger> Not being a dick, but the type of questions you ask indicate that it's very likely you're approaching the problem the wrong way
[14:22:14] <Horologium> won't be updating the whole page each screen refresh.
[14:22:15] <Malinuss> theBear, no need to sound degrading, just don't feel like reading through a couple of pages when it's something that I can just get a estmate on.
[14:22:27] <tzanger> estimate? "a few cycles"
[14:22:37] <Malinuss> tzanger, less then 50, right?
[14:22:41] <theBear> i've never used ANY avr feature without having read and kept for referral the datasheet that applies, and i always scan the whole thing before i even attempt to use a chip
[14:23:09] <Horologium> http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en559066 this chip.
[14:23:10] <tzanger> very likely, but again... I think you might be approaching things the wrong way since if you really did need the info, you would not be making do with estimates
[14:23:25] <theBear> Malinuss, there is a need, it's a couple of pages, or in reality probably only a couple of paragraphs, instead you are assuming our time is worth less than yours
[14:23:42] <tzanger> there is that too
[14:24:04] <Horologium> beauty of that chip is, it can clock out 1, 2, or 4 bits at a time...
[14:24:12] <Malinuss> theBear, are you telling me you didn't use the ISP before reading all the pages about how it works? Or used interrupt vectors without reading all the pages about interrupts? Or even used sram (programmed in c) without first reading the pages about that?
[14:24:24] <tzanger> Malinuss: that's not the same thing at all
[14:24:26] <tzanger> not even close
[14:24:28] <theBear> Horologium, oh, good point, very nice work... i was also thinking if you wanted to you could alternate between two chips, one outputting and one being updated
[14:24:49] <Horologium> Malinuss, first time I used an avr was 3 weeks after I ordered the first one...and I had read the entire datasheet end to end...but, I'm rather anal that way.
[14:24:58] <Horologium> theBear, that's double buffering.
[14:25:09] <tzanger> your mom is double-buffering.
[14:25:33] <Horologium> and, will be alternating between 4 chips actually....2 interleaved for display while 2 are being updated.
[14:25:34] <Malinuss> tzanger, it isn't?
[14:25:38] <theBear> Malinuss, the isp i didn't make, for the first few years mine was just 3 resistors, and i didn't program avrdude or ponyprog, so i didn't read that, but yes, i read EVERYTHING about interrupts before trying to use one, and sram i knew implicitly way before avrs existed, so these days i would just scan for major specs and maybe check the timing diagram was standard
[14:25:45] <tzanger> Malinuss: not at all
[14:25:54] <tzanger> you don't need to know exact timing to use ISP
[14:25:55] <theBear> Horologium, yeah, just saying the implementation out loud
[14:26:38] <Malinuss> tzanger, ah, never mind think we are refering to different things
[14:26:48] <theBear> and the same applies for pwm, timers, bootloaders, EVERY AVR FEATURE I EVER USED ! and the first few chips i read 90% of the entire LONG datasheet just to get an idea what was what
[14:26:50] <Malinuss> I just realised
[14:27:35] <tzanger> but again you seem to want to know very precise information about interrupt latency but are ok to make do with wild estimates... you either don't need the info but want a ballpark idea for trivia or you do need the info but are lazy
[14:27:56] <tzanger> so that's why I asked what it is you're doing that has such hard realtime requirements
[14:28:02] <theBear> Horologium, it's no longer common (afaik,) and was never 'cheap' like sram, but vram was a pretty cool thing back in the 90's, parallel so you still need a ramdac, but it had dual ports so you could update at your leisure while the ramdac just read out from the other side
[14:28:17] <Horologium> theBear, have some...zip package.
[14:28:34] <Horologium> there is also dual port sram but it's not big enough or it is in a package that I can't work with easily.
[14:28:46] <Horologium> part of this project is a minimal solder build.
[14:28:50] <theBear> Horologium, very good :) i got a handful somewhere, sure i'll think of a cool reason to use them one of these days
[14:29:02] <tzanger> Horologium: I worked on a design that clocked data from one SPI device (a flash chip like yours) to an OLED display
[14:29:02] <theBear> Horologium, interesting to know (the dual port sram)
[14:29:05] <tzanger> kind of a hard-wired DMA
[14:29:21] <Horologium> tzanger, that's kinda what I'm doing,,,sorta.
[14:29:22] <Malinuss> tzanger, one could say I want a ballpark idea for trivia yeah... funny to think about the fact that I could have read all the pages about interrupts in the time I've been discussing it with your guys, hehe
[14:29:43] <Horologium> by setting these chips to output 4 bits at a time I can also get 16 color display.
[14:29:57] <theBear> yeah, 'funny', like i say, wasting our time
[14:30:08] <tzanger> Malinuss: yes. :-) the estimate is a few cycles, I seem to remember something on the order of under 4, but maybe a dozen or so, I haven't dug into it.
[14:30:16] <Horologium> but then I need 4 of them in each bank to give me that though.
[14:30:29] <Malinuss> theBear, pfff, nobody forces you to answer
[14:30:46] <tzanger> Malinuss: if you're trying ot react to an external event you also have to take into account the synchronization time which will always be a clock or two depending on the synchronizer length and ioclk frequency (which may not be your CPU frequency)
[14:30:59] <Horologium> err..maybe not...4 bits will fit 800x600 in 2Mbits...
[14:31:49] <Horologium> that's right...8 bits needed 4Mbits of ram...
[14:32:01] <Horologium> haven't actually fired that thing up in a couple weeks.
[14:32:31] <Malinuss> tzanger, didn't really think about that, thanks. fiy: it all came from me trying to help some guy use the ultrasonic module, all this won't matter in this though, since it's 1000x less precise then the timing issue that we are discussing.
[14:33:12] <Malinuss> tzanger, also I was pretty sure that ioCPU was always the same as F_CPU?
[14:33:59] <tzanger> ioclk and cpuclk aren't always the same. dpeends on the chip
[14:34:08] <tzanger> you can also have ioclk running if hte CPU clock is stopped
[14:34:08] <Horologium> aahh ultrasonic modules.
[14:34:30] <Horologium> try doing reflectometry with an AVR...
[14:34:38] <tzanger> make sure your friend includes a temp sensor or is using it in an environment where the temp stays pretty static
[14:34:47] <Horologium> like, on a wire, pulse reflectometry...
[14:34:48] * Malinuss is googling reflectometry
[14:35:05] <Horologium> it's just like that ultrasonic thing...send a pulse, measure time for return.
[14:35:14] <Horologium> only, 1ns is about 11 inches.
[14:35:22] <Malinuss> lol
[14:35:25] <Horologium> avr isn't so good at nanosecond timing.
[14:35:39] <tzanger> heh no, not even with capture/compare
[14:35:43] <Malinuss> Horologium, unless you can make it run very fast, propably not ;P..
[14:35:57] <Horologium> I was getting 100 foot accuracy.
[14:36:06] <Horologium> which, for what I was doing, wasn't all that bad.
[14:36:12] <theBear> Horologium, usually referred to as time domain reflectometer as a unit/tool.. and speed can change quite a bit depending on the cable, maybe 20% or more
[14:36:14] <Horologium> but couldn't get it to be reliable.
[14:36:36] <Horologium> theBear, I was doing it on, of all things, electric fences.
[14:36:52] <tzanger> you were bouncing ultrasonic waves off electric fences?
[14:36:55] <theBear> Horologium, heh, that's actually a fine idea, i've dealt with a few, they're often err, extensive
[14:36:56] <Horologium> no.
[14:37:02] <Horologium> sending electric pulses down electric fenses.
[14:37:06] <tzanger> ohhh
[14:37:06] <Horologium> fences
[14:37:07] <tzanger> yeah
[14:37:23] <Horologium> and a time domain reflectometer to check them is damned expensive.
[14:37:31] <tzanger> you can do that for super cheap with an old oscilloscope and a 7414
[14:37:31] <Malinuss> tzanger, oh good idea. after looking it up speed of sound changes more then I expected in a range of 10C, thanks
[14:37:45] <Horologium> tzanger, try getting an old farmer to use an old oscilloscope.
[14:37:49] <tzanger> Horologium: haha
[14:37:57] <tzanger> WHY CAN'T I GET DALLAS ON THIS FUCKING BOX?
[14:38:02] <Horologium> pretty much.
[14:38:19] <tzanger> but yeah 100ft on a 3 mile fence segment is LOTS
[14:38:22] <Horologium> if I can ever get that toy to work I can sell millions...or at least thousands.
[14:38:44] <tzanger> Horologium: use a MAX5 and an AVR. done and done.
[14:38:59] <Malinuss> Horologium, what toy, your reflectometer or computer thingie?
[14:39:05] <Horologium> even a 500 foot area is acceptable but you get sooo many bouncebacks off of an electric fence it's hard to tell which is the break and which is a staple holding the fence to a pole.
[14:39:10] <Horologium> Malinuss, reflectometer.
[14:39:13] <theBear> Horologium, oooh, lightbulb ! if i pull it off i'll give yer a commission :)
[14:39:34] <theBear> orright, literally taken enough pills to kill a normal man now, i'm likely gonna throw up blood sometime tomorrow, but i don't think i need to go to hospital early on a saturday morning, which is nice... i'm going to try to sleep now :)
[14:39:53] <Horologium> wait till sunday morning...while everybody is at church.
[14:39:57] <theBear> have fun now, and don't forget to count your blessings
[14:39:58] <Horologium> much quieter in the hospital then.
[14:40:06] <Horologium> I'm an atheist.
[14:40:09] <Horologium> I don't have blessings.
[14:40:45] <theBear> Horologium, it's on the cards, and me too, and blessings don't have to be divine, they can be an empty concept, the opposite of curses, like a bad back
[14:40:52] <theBear> cya
[14:41:06] <Malinuss> Horologium, oh I once did time-domain reflectometer on a octopus nerve, haha
[14:41:48] <Horologium> I've had it done on my nerves.
[14:41:58] <Horologium> diabetic and all,,,they like to test nerve response times.
[14:42:04] <Horologium> anyhow, time to go back to making sawdust!
[14:42:19] <Malinuss> Horologium, how is that even possible? I mean, without extracing the nerve, you can't measure it precisly?
[14:42:28] <Malinuss> *extracing
[14:42:32] <Malinuss> *extracting
[14:54:16] <RikusW> Horologium: the tiny26 does have a 64MHz timer clock for fast PWM
[14:54:36] <RikusW> I've considered using TDR on electric fences too :)
[14:54:54] <RikusW> just not while the fence is on.... :-P
[14:55:42] <tzanger> RikusW: why not? float the supply
[14:56:05] <tzanger> I have a tiny13 design that drives 24VAC relays through a triac and is powered off the "hot" side of the 24VAC supply
[14:56:09] <RikusW> Gallagher actually have a remote for their MBX2500 it works quite well
[14:56:26] <RikusW> tzanger: there is 8kV pulses on that fence...
[14:56:33] <tzanger> RikusW: I'm well aware of what's on the fence
[14:56:41] <tzanger> RikusW: I grew up in a farming community. :-)
[14:56:59] * RikusW lives on a farm in South Africa
[14:57:15] <tzanger> hell you could supply the TDR from the 8kV pulse :-)
[14:57:22] <tzanger> RikusW: really? you're in SA?
[14:57:26] <RikusW> yes
[14:57:38] <tzanger> nice.
[14:57:41] <RikusW> which coutry are you in ?
[14:57:45] <tzanger> I'm in Canada
[14:57:47] <RikusW> +|n
[14:57:53] <vsync_> how many negra slaves do you keep
[14:58:05] <RikusW> only 1 paid worker
[14:58:12] <tzanger> how many hectares?
[14:58:19] <vsync_> paid... disturbs me
[14:58:28] <RikusW> the negros are in joburg selling drugs :-P
[14:58:33] <tzanger> I volunteer vsync_ to immediately travel there to help you
[14:58:35] <RikusW> tzanger: 1500ha
[14:58:39] <tzanger> damn man
[14:58:42] <tzanger> and only one paid worker?
[14:58:50] <RikusW> actually 2 now
[14:58:55] <RikusW> one is white
[14:59:16] <RikusW> we had some theft issues... :(
[14:59:24] <vsync_> gee wiz
[14:59:28] <vsync_> who would've thought
[14:59:30] <vsync_> ...:D
[14:59:34] <RikusW> so the rest was fired becuse of that..
[14:59:45] <vsync_> negro stole my atmel
[14:59:47] <RikusW> (two of them..)
[15:00:05] <RikusW> they like car batteries to power their tv's
[15:00:12] <RikusW> and solar panels ofc
[15:00:24] <RikusW> theft is a huge problem in SA
[15:00:32] <vsync_> :D
[15:00:43] <vsync_> still sounds like 3rd world
[15:00:48] <tzanger> RikusW: what do you farm?
[15:00:54] <RikusW> tzanger: and a pack of border collies to help move the cattle
[15:00:55] <tzanger> is it your farm or do you work there or?
[15:01:00] <tzanger> ok cattle
[15:01:02] <vsync_> don't crack me up and tell me it's watermelons
[15:01:03] <RikusW> my father's farm
[15:01:06] <vsync_> damn :(
[15:01:11] <RikusW> nguni cattle
[15:01:15] <tzanger> RikusW: very cool. I love farm life (seriously, I do)
[15:01:17] <vsync_> no cotton?
[15:01:26] <RikusW> no
[15:01:33] <RikusW> cotton is uncommon is SA afaik
[15:01:34] <vsync_> tzanger: yeh, sure you do. Up to the point where you have to do it every day
[15:01:49] <tzanger> vsync_: actually no, I do enjoy it. physical labour is good for hte soul
[15:01:58] <tzanger> yes there are times you'd rather do something else
[15:02:07] <vsync_> says tzanger who probably has a cubicle job and spends his days in internet
[15:02:30] <tzanger> I run my own company but these days do spend most of it in the shop, yes
[15:02:39] <vsync_> dreams, are good for the soul
[15:03:05] <tzanger> nah, dreams give you something to aim for
[15:03:33] <vsync_> very profound
[15:03:36] <vsync_> deep stuff
[15:03:49] <tzanger> indeed, almost as much fun as your jokes
[15:04:15] <RikusW> tzanger: just today we did some maintenance on a 4km stretch of electric fencing
[15:04:21] <vsync_> well RikusW just gave us another real life example of black criminality
[15:04:54] <RikusW> basically a single wire suspended about 40cm from the normal fence and about 1m high
[15:05:08] <tzanger> vsync_: I don't recall him saying the thefts were by blacks. Your stereotypical opinions were very profound though
[15:05:12] <RikusW> we use thin steel posts for that
[15:05:20] <RikusW> with an insulator on to
[15:05:21] <RikusW> p
[15:05:23] <vsync_> he implied it, also drug selling
[15:05:34] <RikusW> tzanger: it were...
[15:05:42] <tzanger> RikusW: yep, I know what an electric fence looks like. I always liked the trick where you grab it and grab someone who's in ocntact with the ground
[15:05:57] <vsync_> tzanger: it's the real life, not hte internet life where people are so out of touch with the real life with their 4squares, facebooks and other nonsense
[15:06:17] <tzanger> indeed. again very stereotypical
[15:06:25] <vsync_> also very realistic
[15:06:35] <RikusW> tzanger: is it usual elsewhere to put only one wire 40cm away from the normal non electrified fence ?
[15:07:05] <tzanger> RikusW: it's not UNcommon; you share the fenceposts then
[15:07:09] <vsync_> the internet generation is out of touch, however with this rate the life seems to be transferring over to the internet so in a few years we don't even have to go get groceries, we simply download bits and eat them
[15:07:16] <RikusW> tzanger: we don't
[15:07:35] <RikusW> we put one thin 1x1cm post every 20m or so
[15:07:37] <tzanger> the electric fence keeps the big beasts in, the real fence helps keep the coyotes out
[15:07:50] <vsync_> and the shotgun to keep the negros at bay
[15:07:51] <RikusW> I did manage to make it work for one every 40m...
[15:08:01] <tzanger> vsync_: you have no idea who you're talking to, please leave me out of your generalizations
[15:08:15] <tzanger> "internet generation" is my kids
[15:08:26] <RikusW> we have very rusty barbed wire fencing..
[15:08:28] <vsync_> which you have seem to have adapted
[15:08:36] <RikusW> in need for replacement by now...
[15:08:40] <vsync_> anyway, nuff said, back on tracks...
[15:08:47] <tzanger> no, I just dislike bigots
[15:09:55] <RikusW> at least combined with the electic line it keeps the cattle at bay
[15:10:16] <tzanger> the electric fence is usually used to keep the cattle from using the fences as scratching posts
[15:10:30] <vsync_> i think mandela was a pussy
[15:10:31] <tzanger> which is what usually wears/breaks them if memory serves
[15:10:43] <RikusW> well our cattle are a bit different, they break the fences on purpose
[15:10:51] <RikusW> to get to fresh grass
[15:11:12] <tzanger> yes, they reach under/through it, right?
[15:11:23] <RikusW> and jump over
[15:11:36] <tzanger> ... what the hell kind of cattle do you have that jump?
[15:11:48] <tzanger> the most I've ever seen a cow jump is when it hits the electric fence with its snout. :-)
[15:11:48] <RikusW> nguni
[15:12:06] <RikusW> well most fences are not electrified...
[15:12:09] <tzanger> that does NOT look like an animal capable of jumping
[15:12:10] <tzanger> wow
[15:12:36] <RikusW> many times they break the top wire
[15:12:37] <vsync_> RikusW: so you said 100 ha?
[15:12:42] <RikusW> 1500
[15:12:47] <vsync_> k
[15:12:50] <vsync_> so
[15:12:54] <vsync_> don't you grow anything
[15:12:59] <RikusW> no
[15:13:11] <vsync_> so most of it is not in use?
[15:13:25] <RikusW> tzanger: its not pure nguni
[15:13:30] <RikusW> grazing
[15:13:51] <RikusW> we have rocky soil on this farm
[15:14:00] <vsync_> oh k
[15:14:14] <RikusW> though there have been ploughed in some areas
[15:14:31] <RikusW> currently its all grass
[15:14:32] <vsync_> thought they could manage with less even when grazing but well if most of it is fubar so :x
[15:15:57] <RikusW> a lot of other farmers around here plant a lot of maize
[15:16:36] <RikusW> but planting is a risky business
[15:17:06] <vsync_> hmh, well not much point in having thieving negros around especially if you don't grow cotton or watermelon... Planting corn or stuff would just inspire them
[15:17:24] <vsync_> not inspire them, correction
[15:18:26] <RikusW> pumkins is one of their favourite items...
[15:18:33] <RikusW> pumpkins
[15:18:53] <RikusW> not to talk about sheep...
[15:18:59] <vsync_> nice... good ol' southern squash
[15:19:08] <turutk> hi. i have a code in my interrupt routine that reads an input from a button. i want the code to work once every time i press the button but since interrupt kicks in 1200 per second when i press the button the code works at least 5-10 times.
[15:19:31] <RikusW> vsync_: the locals used to be called bantu's
[15:19:56] <turutk> how can i block the code until the button is high
[15:19:58] <RikusW> we mostly have Zulu's and Sotho's here
[15:20:32] <RikusW> fortunatly no negros that I know of
[15:20:58] <tzanger> turutk: don't read from a button in an interrupt
[15:21:00] <vsync_> alright :)
[15:21:02] <RikusW> but there are lots of Indians and other eastern people ofer here lately,
[15:22:42] <turutk> tzanger: i took it to my main loop. nothing changed
[15:23:53] <krphop> RikusW: they speak Xhosa there?
[15:24:43] <RikusW> in other parts of the country yes
[15:24:49] <RikusW> like eastern cape
[15:25:18] <RikusW> krphop: usually the language is also the name of the group
[15:27:42] <turutk> nevermind i got it
[15:28:50] <theBear> kinda 'funny' how people never consider what colour the others in an irc channel could be
[15:30:48] <theBear> safe assumption i guess <grin> only 172 people here
[15:31:06] <tzanger> theBear: it's not about consideration. I'm as white as they come but it tells a lot about the person
[15:32:52] <RikusW> theBear: the only color people in irc is, are the colors assigned by the irc client to their nicks ;)
[15:32:59] <theBear> tzanger, i agree, and whatever colour i might be, i'm quite fond of many people that are different colours, kinda makes me wanna hurt someone when i notice they don't feel the same way
[15:34:03] <theBear> RikusW, heh, so somewhere between arbitrary and random then :) i suppose that makes you all smurfs to me, except when you say bear, then you look kinda red, like hellspawn i spose
[15:34:20] <theBear> and i'm a light shade of grey :)
[15:36:33] <Horologium> Malinuss, they put this probe at one end of your leg and have sensor pads at the other and pulse it.
[15:36:43] <Horologium> legs, arms, etc.
[15:37:07] <Horologium> RikusW, didn't know about the 64mhz clock...have to feed it with what from the outside?
[15:37:19] <Horologium> RikusW, never with the fence on....that would just be,,,painful.
[15:38:37] <RikusW> Horologium: the t26 and t162 got a PLL inside
[15:38:45] <RikusW> *t621
[15:38:47] <Horologium> as for people's color....don't matter to me if someone is black, white, green, or yellow..
[15:38:50] <RikusW> *t261
[15:39:03] <RikusW> got read the datasheet
[15:39:04] <Horologium> I just hate n*gg*rs...no matter the color,,and there are many of many colors.
[15:40:03] <Horologium> several of them have the PLL...those are used in vUSB to get synced to the usb clock without running from a crystal.
[15:40:15] <theBear> Horologium, you should probably at least worry if they're green or yellow, maybe refer them to a good hospital :)
[15:40:45] <Horologium> hehe.
[15:40:54] <Horologium> one thing I don't like, facial piercings.
[15:40:59] <Horologium> WTF is up with that crap?
[15:41:13] <theBear> i'm quite fond of a cartoon called the boondocks... it has some quite profound comments about people acting like that nasty word, regardless of who they are :) and many other profound comments about life in general
[15:41:17] * RikusW don't like any kind of piercings...
[15:42:05] <theBear> i'd never pierce my face, hurt WAAAAY too much in a fight or general head-trauma situation, but some bits can be attractive to look at... my little bro got one just like a bull, it makes me laugh
[15:42:21] <Horologium> only reason a man should wear an earring is if he has sailed around the Cape,,,in a sailing ship..with sails...
[15:42:45] <Horologium> nose piercings are the worst....if you take the stud out and blow your nose, does snot come out of the hole?
[15:42:58] <theBear> Horologium, you know what a "prince albert" is ? i think that's the worst
[15:43:13] <Guest89692> do you only get a prince albert if you've sailed them all?
[15:43:14] <Horologium> yeah, but that's not on the face so can't see it in general public...
[15:43:22] <theBear> Guest89692, hehe
[15:43:40] <theBear> Horologium, just regarding body fluids shooting out unnatural holes in strange directions :)
[15:43:57] <Horologium> aahh
[15:44:05] <Horologium> maybe that's why they get them!
[15:44:13] <Guest89692> sprinkler system
[15:44:32] <theBear> i think i find most body modifications less offensive than most 'worn' 'fashions'
[15:44:49] <Guest89692> what about that scarification thing
[15:45:05] <Guest89692> it looks like someone used a potato peeler on your as
[15:45:06] <Guest89692> ass
[15:45:37] * RikusW wants no potato peeler any near :-P
[15:45:43] <RikusW> *anywhere
[15:45:54] <theBear> scarring is an interesting idea, i don't think weird white hard to see patterns are much useful tho... went with a buddy to see him get branding added to a traditional style (manual, no 'gun') tattoo a few years back, the thing was kinda like a dremel shaped soldering gun :)
[15:46:02] <Horologium> if the Great FSM wanted me to have more holes in my body he would have made me out of macaroni.
[15:46:02] <Guest89692> I wonder if a potato peeler with a phallus handle would sell
[15:46:24] <tzanger> Horologium: there's a saying I agree with... nigger is a state of mind. Not black or white, just dumb as shit.
[15:46:35] <spybert> hehe
[15:46:38] <theBear> and i've got this thing, kinda like an old newspaper typesetting arrangement with a handle designed for branding your steak at a bbq, but i'm gonna have to put at least a few words on myself one of these days
[15:46:45] <Horologium> Guest89692, why not? they attach dildos to recpirocating saws.
[15:46:55] <Guest89692> what about dildos to chainsaws
[15:46:58] <Guest89692> chaindildo
[15:47:00] <theBear> lol
[15:47:05] <Guest89692> MY IDEA
[15:47:08] <theBear> "gently with a chainsaw"
[15:47:23] <Guest89692> 120CCs worth of chained dildo action
[15:47:28] <theBear> ^^ a favourite term from my youthier days as a punk
[15:47:35] <Horologium> Guest89692, saw posted on alt.tasteless some years ago....a sybian converted to run on petrol...they used a weedwacker motor. called it the bushwacker.
[15:47:43] <spybert> There used to be some fellow over on #electronics who designed sex gadgets, can`t remember the nick offhand
[15:47:52] <theBear> and punk can be a state of mind rather than a fashion too, really should be in my opinion
[15:48:12] <Guest89692> spybert: speedevil?
[15:48:13] <theBear> i've been involved in a couple of erotic electronic projects over the years
[15:48:17] <Horologium> punk isn't a fashion...it is a target.
[15:48:22] <RikusW> tzanger: you're right its a state of mind..
[15:48:38] <Guest89692> so if I have niggerish thoughts long enough I'll turn colours?
[15:48:42] <theBear> Horologium, heh, i'm no mans target, but back then nazi punks did look a lot like targets to some of us
[15:48:56] <Horologium> I really need to get some of those 12 gauge taser rounds.
[15:48:57] <theBear> Guest89692, oooh, maybe if i have enough gay thoughts i'll go rainbow coloured !
[15:49:03] <RikusW> Guest89692: lack of thoughts :-P
[15:49:06] <Guest89692> exactly
[15:49:17] <Guest89692> Horologium: kinky
[15:49:21] <theBear> i like that idea
[15:49:37] * theBear starts thinking really hard about gay stuff
[15:49:40] <spybert> Guest89692: not sure, would need to check the logs, but he and others had some pretty solid ideas, probably made some money off of it. Hard to get venture capital for that stuff, though :))
[15:50:15] <RikusW> Guest89692: you need to release in Nickserv...
[15:51:02] <Guest89692> RikusW: I don't want to
[15:51:21] <Guest89692> I would have setup the client by now if I cared too.
[15:51:34] <RikusW> want anonymity in some other channel ?
[15:51:37] <Guest89692> Oh no you'll see my IP, what a horror IRCing with no cloak
[15:51:53] <Guest89692> RikusW: No, otherwise I would wipe the ident
[15:51:59] <Guest89692> Use a proxy
[15:52:04] <Horologium> http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/ammunition/innovative-alternative-to-stun-guns-just-shoot-them/#more-1697
[15:52:06] <Guest89692> And hide like a frogs.
[15:52:44] <Guest89692> I care less and less about IRC as time goes by.
[15:53:38] <theBear> orright, just washed down some sleeping pills with bourbon, this time i'm pretty darned sure i'm going to bed... sure hope so, i had enough of this horrible paining.... gnight then
[15:53:55] <RikusW> gn
[15:54:04] <Horologium> go snort a percocet.
[15:54:27] <Guest89692> and some pixie dust
[15:56:11] <theBear> trust me, if i had anything stronger, i'd already have snorted it or smoked it in a crack pipe :) i wasn't exaggerating earlier when i said a normal person would be dead by this stage... anyway, have fun
[15:56:18] <Horologium> that taser round looks seriously nasty.
[15:56:29] <Horologium> 4 barbed forward facing electrodes
[15:56:59] <Horologium> plus it has several feet of wire..when it hits it unwinds the heavy part which drops down and has 6 cactus like electrodes that will stick to you elsewhere,,,spreading the taser effect!
[15:57:27] <Guest89692> I wasn't here earlier so...
[15:57:49] <Horologium> that's ok...the subject has changed dramatically several times in the last half hour.
[15:58:01] <Guest89692> from dildos to electrified dildos?
[15:58:33] <Horologium> well,,I'm talking about a 12 gauge shotgun taser round.
[15:58:47] <Horologium> but, whatever lights up your life.
[16:02:39] <spybert> We could just classify all that under biomedical engineering
[16:03:52] <spybert> and it could be controlled by an AVR microcontroller, too
[16:15:32] <Guest89692> spybert: so you are pro dildonics
[16:22:01] <vsync_> i don't really buy what thebear's sayin
[16:22:11] <vsync_> i wanna see some pictures
[16:25:51] <spybert> Guest89692: electronics is supposed to be fun, you know.
[16:29:01] <spybert> Guest89692: But one problem I see is that there are multiple definitions for "dildonics"
[16:31:20] <Guest89692> spybert: I wouldn't know
[16:31:50] <spybert> Guest89692: If you mean the telepresence definition, I`m not too interested in that. But I can see how it would have commercial value
[16:35:06] <spybert> anyway we have to keep it g-rated here for the younger hobbyists on the channel
[16:36:27] <vsync_> rated r for avr
[16:38:08] <Guest89692> spybert: I think theyounger ones are doing way more horrid things than you were at theirage
[16:38:44] <Guest89692> and god damn lenovo to hell.
[16:38:55] <vsync_> i think yououghta usethe space
[16:39:04] <Guest89692> my thumb is sore
[16:39:13] <vsync_> dildonix
[16:39:17] <Guest89692> no.
[16:39:18] <vsync_> also your butt
[16:39:54] <Guest89692> I cut my index finger and there's a slight infection going on.
[16:40:58] <Guest89692> Also haven't had any coffee today
[18:20:30] <kdehl> Are there any modern 4-bit microcontrollers?
[18:21:23] <kdehl> MARC4 is something that even Atmel makes, it seems. Or made. Are they still used?
[18:21:36] <kdehl> Heh. qForth.
[18:22:02] <abcminiuser> Nei, the industry moved to 8-bit yonks ago
[18:23:27] <Steffanx> And now they are moving to 32 :P
[18:23:35] <Steffanx> At least, some of them
[18:24:14] <kdehl> I've heard that watches can sometimes use 4-bit controllers, but I dunno whether that's true.
[18:31:46] <abcminiuser> It's possible, it depends on what's cost-effective at the time
[18:32:03] <abcminiuser> That said I don;r think Atmel make 4-bits any more
[18:35:31] <kdehl> No, I can't find any.
[18:35:39] <kdehl> They're all out of stock.
[18:37:21] <Steffanx> kdehl go for a 'challenge' and design one yourself :)
[18:41:10] <kdehl> Steffanx: Oh, I've been considering it!
[18:41:40] <kdehl> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
[18:42:19] <kdehl> One could totally make on with an FPGA, though. I wouldn't go for TTL chips like that guy.
[18:42:28] <Steffanx> :)
[18:43:54] <kdehl> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/341357405/4_bit_Microcontroller_EM6605_UEM_IC_.html
[18:47:50] <MrMobius> kdehl, no one would be impressed if you did it with an fpga
[18:47:55] <MrMobius> thats a pretty common thing
[18:50:25] <kdehl> I would be impressed if I did!
[18:51:13] <MrMobius> hehe
[18:51:34] <MrMobius> there was an article about a guy who made a complete NES system in an FPGA over the holidays
[18:52:19] <kdehl> I've heard about that. That is really cool.
[20:39:13] <Grievar> Okay so people have been telling me "buy a real ISP programmer", what is the one I want to buy?
[20:39:30] <Casper> tom's one
[20:39:40] <Casper> which one was you using?
[20:39:59] <Grievar> just arduinoisp
[20:44:09] <Grievar> Casper: "tom's one"?
[20:44:21] <Casper> Tom_sbc: ya there?
[20:44:42] <Casper> Grievar: but really, if you have no issue to program your avr and it's not a pain to use, why spend money?
[20:46:02] <Grievar> Casper: Um, I am having issues, things are just randomly misbehaving, also it's a pain in the butt to use
[20:46:55] <Casper> personally, I use ponyprog serial, but there is tons of model avail
[23:37:20] <rue_house> whats arduinoisp?
[23:37:42] <rue_house> I find an stk200 really reliable
[23:37:50] <rue_house> its a buffered one
[23:37:55] <rue_house> home made
[23:44:41] <Casper> rue_house: have you ever seen a 90+% efficient float charger for SLA/LA?
[23:44:42] <Tom_itx> Grievar, http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[23:44:48] <Casper> that also have power factor correction?
[23:45:28] <rue_house> why would efficiency matter on a charger?
[23:45:44] <rue_house> Pb batteries only charge at like 50% anyhow
[23:46:05] <Casper> because it's to make an online ups :D
[23:46:15] <Casper> and it's 65%
[23:46:55] <Casper> even the power converter for RV ain't better than about 80%
[23:47:02] <Casper> and everything run on 12V there...
[23:47:19] <Casper> and most ain't even PFC !
[23:49:35] <Casper> most dc ups I find don't regulate the output