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[08:45:05] <Horologium> Happy PI DAY!!!
[08:57:40] <Casper> Horologium: so you'Re going to celebrate by watching Life Of Pi?
[08:59:55] <OndraSter_> Life of Pie!
[09:01:25] <Horologium> Casper, nope...never seen it..don't have it.
[09:02:00] <Horologium> and, from the imdb entry, it looks kinda boring.
[09:02:40] <tzanger> ah, DES is xmega only
[09:02:44] <OndraSter_> ye
[09:02:48] <OndraSter_> AES too
[09:02:51] <tzanger> I thought that was a "heavy" instruction for the tiny micros
[09:02:51] <OndraSter_> you can do it in software
[09:02:55] <tzanger> yeah
[09:03:07] <OndraSter_> when you run AES it takes.. 460? CPU cycles to complete
[09:03:08] <tzanger> I will probably just use xtea for what I'm doing
[09:03:11] <OndraSter_> but you can do other stuff meanwhile
[09:03:21] <OndraSter_> DES is instant
[09:30:01] <jacekowski> 460 cycles to encrypt 1 byte of data?
[09:43:33] <tzanger> I'm guessing 460 cycles for 64 bytes
[09:55:59] <OndraSter_> let me see the datasheet
[09:56:02] <OndraSter_> it is not 1 byte of course :P
[09:56:32] <OndraSter_> AES crypto module
[09:56:32] <OndraSter_> Encryption and decryption
[09:56:32] <OndraSter_> Supports 128-bit keys
[09:56:32] <OndraSter_> Supports XOR data load mode to the state memory
[09:56:32] <OndraSter_> Encryption/decryption in 375 clock cycles per 16-byte block
[09:56:55] <OndraSter_> --
[09:56:55] <OndraSter_> DES Instruction
[09:56:56] <OndraSter_> Encryption and decryption
[09:56:56] <OndraSter_> DES supported
[09:56:56] <OndraSter_> Encryption/decryption in 16 CPU clock cycles per 8-byte block
[13:19:53] <RikusW> zlog
[15:12:54] <abcminiuser> Where the hell are my damned programmers
[15:14:03] <Roklobsta> hardware or meatware?
[15:14:59] <abcminiuser> I have/had two clone programmers from Tom
[15:15:06] <abcminiuser> Meatware
[15:16:55] <abcminiuser> AHA!
[15:17:27] <specing> I thought you had enaugh programmers at atmel HQ?
[15:18:02] <abcminiuser> Well I need to test out my clone firmware with 6.1
[15:19:16] <Roklobsta> is 6.1 ready yet?
[15:19:50] <Roklobsta> christ, when it is ready i'll have to wait 6 weeks for MCUZone to update the firmware for the the mkii-Cn
[15:23:22] <Roklobsta> is
http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/pgmspace.html out of date?
[15:23:51] <Malinuss> abcminiuser, ehh what is the easiest way to use github+atmel studio 6? If you have a minute to explain
[15:23:52] <Roklobsta> with respect to avr-gcc.exe (AVR_8_bit_GNU_Toolchain_3.4.1_830) 4.6.2
[15:24:14] <Roklobsta> gcc is whining about using const now
[15:24:28] <xoriath> Malinuss:
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=126309
[15:24:58] <Malinuss> xoriath, thanks, I googled it a few times, and asked in here too. guess I got lucky this time :)
[15:25:43] <abcminiuser> Roklobsta, it's in public beta
[15:25:52] <xoriath> Malinuss: Hopefully some of the git scm plugin developers from visual studio will add support for atmel studio
[15:26:03] <abcminiuser> Malinuss, there's a VS2010 Git extension you can get from Microsoft
[15:26:15] <xoriath> abcminiuser: hahah, I winn :P
[15:26:16] <abcminiuser> I haven't tried it, but you should be able to just edit the VSIX
[15:26:29] <Malinuss> yeah that's what I had problems with
[15:26:40] <abcminiuser> Download the VSIX
[15:26:45] <abcminiuser> Rename to .zip, extract
[15:26:52] <xoriath> http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=126309
[15:26:53] <abcminiuser> Edit the .vsmanifest in a text editor
[15:27:19] <abcminiuser> Remove the <supportedproducts> section, replace with:
[15:27:19] <abcminiuser> <SupportedProducts>
[15:27:19] <abcminiuser> <IsolatedShell Version="6.1">AtmelStudio</IsolatedShell>
[15:27:20] <abcminiuser> </SupportedProducts>
[15:27:33] <abcminiuser> Then re-zip, rename back to VSIX
[15:27:40] <Malinuss> thanks
[15:28:02] <abcminiuser> Balls, just see xoriath's link
[15:28:07] <xoriath> lol
[15:28:26] <Malinuss> abcminiuser, I hoped you wouldn't figure it out, so you didn't feel like you wasted your time :)
[15:28:37] <xoriath> the mpf references allso needs to be removed
[15:28:44] <Malinuss> thanks anyway hehe...
[15:28:51] <Malinuss> xoriath, yeah I read the post :)
[15:33:01] <xoriath> Roklobsta, in avr-libc 1.8 ish the pgmspace functions expect consts (this is by definition more correct) and is also a step in the direction of the new gcc 4.7 _flash space
[15:33:29] <Roklobsta> ok so the doc needs updating
[15:34:07] <xoriath> probably
[15:34:21] <xoriath> or maybe it hasn't been regenerated
[15:34:58] <xoriath> if your'e on atmel studio 6.1 beta then you have the libc doc integrated in the help system (try F1 on pgmspace.h for instance)
[15:35:27] <xoriath> it is generated from the libc integrated in the toolchain bundled with studio
[15:35:43] <xoriath> if that also is incorrect, then libc needs to update the docs
[15:36:06] <Roklobsta> yes
[15:36:08] <Roklobsta> they do
[15:36:17] <Roklobsta> no mention of using const in the examples
[15:40:42] <xoriath> Roklobsta,
https://savannah.nongnu.org/bugs/?36933
[15:41:44] <Roklobsta> aha that is the problem i have
[15:41:45] <Roklobsta> ok
[15:41:46] <Roklobsta> tahnks
[15:43:57] <xoriath> the patch seems to be added , so ... hang on and wait for it to be integrated I guess
[15:52:59] <Roklobsta> yep
[16:12:47] <Malinuss> abcminiuser, sorry for bothering you with it again, but I already installed "github for windows", as well as the extension for atmel studio (followin the insturctuion seemed to install fine for atmel stduio), but right clicking on the solution explorer doesn't show any "git" options?
[16:16:04] <abcminiuser> Hrm, I guess I should try it myself and see :P
[16:16:13] <abcminiuser> Where did you get the extension?
[16:16:39] <Malinuss> abcminiuser,
http://visualstudiogallery.msdn.microsoft.com/63a7e40d-4d71-4fbb-a23b-d262124b8f4c
[16:16:48] <Malinuss> abcminiuser, I thought that was what you used?
[16:19:31] <abcminiuser> Nei, I use Git externally from the command line
[16:22:28] <Malinuss> oh, and whenever you feel like it - you commit?
[16:23:28] <abcminiuser> Ja
[16:23:33] <abcminiuser> Tools->Options
[16:23:40] <abcminiuser> Source Control node
[16:23:44] <abcminiuser> Change the provider to GIT
[16:23:51] <Malinuss> Lyder godt
[16:24:45] <abcminiuser> That seems to load the GIT extension
[16:25:55] <Tom_itx> when you load git does it download changes?
[16:26:21] <Malinuss> abcminiuser, <3
[16:26:45] <abcminiuser> One internet for me
[16:27:52] <Tom_itx> i also loade github for windows
[16:28:21] <Tom_itx> when you start it does it grab changes to all your projects or do you do that manually?
[16:28:47] <Tom_itx> and if you grab one and it doesn't work how do you roll back?
[16:28:51] <abcminiuser> No idea, I use real git
[16:29:01] <abcminiuser> The point of git is that you can always roll back
[16:29:04] <Tom_itx> same thing i think
[16:29:16] <abcminiuser> Nei, GitHub for Windows is a toy GUI
[16:29:23] <abcminiuser> MSYS GIT is the real command line git
[16:29:43] <abcminiuser> git log, grab the short SHA id of the version you want, then git reset --hard SHA_ID
[16:29:43] <Tom_itx> which do you use?
[16:29:51] <abcminiuser> The real one (MSYS GIT)
[16:30:02] <Tom_itx> no gui?
[16:30:38] <abcminiuser> I don't use one, but you can find several
[16:30:45] <abcminiuser> I think git comes with gitk
[16:31:15] <abcminiuser> The git commands are a bit strange, but once you learn them (I've only been using it since October) it's really, really good
[16:31:24] <Tom_itx> does that github for windows work ok?
[16:31:28] <Tom_itx> the one i got
[16:31:35] <Tom_itx> haven't done much with it yet
[16:31:38] <abcminiuser> We evaluated it in our team and rejected it, but I can't remember why
[16:31:48] <abcminiuser> I think it was unable to handle the branching model we use
[16:31:55] <abcminiuser> But for basic projects it's fine
[16:32:10] <abcminiuser> The hardest part is wrapping your head around the whole decentralized thing
[16:32:20] <Tom_itx> probably all i would do is get open source downloads
[16:33:16] <abcminiuser> git clone <URL> <folder>
[16:33:21] <abcminiuser> git checkout master
[16:33:23] <abcminiuser> done
[16:33:47] <abcminiuser> To update: git pull
[16:34:33] <Tom_itx> http://msysgit.github.com/
[16:34:36] <Tom_itx> is that what you use?
[16:34:45] <abcminiuser> Jupp
[16:34:52] <abcminiuser> Be warned: wear a helmet
[16:35:01] <abcminiuser> It's not super user-friendly to start with
[16:35:15] <Tom_itx> that's what you're for :D
[16:35:20] <abcminiuser> Balls
[16:35:25] <abcminiuser> Well I can walk you though it
[16:35:29] <abcminiuser> But not tonight, about to go to bed
[16:35:34] <Tom_itx> i'll keep what i got for now
[16:35:42] <Tom_itx> i just needed one the other day
[16:35:45] <abcminiuser> Ja, I'm happy to help
[16:36:12] <Tom_itx> so you do all yours from a shell?
[16:36:26] <abcminiuser> Jupp, I thought I'd learn it properly
[16:36:26] <Tom_itx> or dos window...
[16:36:32] <abcminiuser> Cygwin
[17:20:02] <creep> ^^
[17:20:09] <creep> this loaf is superawesome
[17:22:19] <theBear> err, oh, those aren't arrows pointing at something that you imagined, very good
[17:22:20] <creep> cooked in IR oven, using PT100 control loop
[17:22:54] <theBear> i just had a lovely bit of toast with lurpak butter on it, possibly the most delicious butter that you can just manage not to laugh/cry at the price of
[17:23:36] <creep> i put 200g simple butter in tis too
[17:23:46] <theBear> did you 'watch' the control at all ? notice if/how much it fluctuated ?
[17:23:54] <creep> yes
[17:24:09] <creep> i have about 5C overshoot if i set it to 50C from 20C
[17:24:10] <theBear> i suppose when you say loop you mean something along the lines of pid, so it's not gonna oscillate unless you math wrong
[17:24:56] <theBear> that's easily accountable for, and if you DO do it right, maths and all, you'll correct it for ALL target temps/heating/cooling rates, not just that one
[17:24:57] <creep> no air mixing yet, so top is a little hotter inside, but not serious
[17:25:15] <theBear> you just mean forced convection, not bringing in outside air ?
[17:25:41] <creep> i do sigma delta, no place for errors, oscillation - always :)
[17:26:13] <theBear> that's no way to control a semi-closed loop system with mild hysteresis/delay !
[17:26:19] <creep> i mean there is no fan inside, so hot air flows up... and colderstays down
[17:26:55] <theBear> and if you think about it, you're already doing the other way to some extent as soon as you try ANYTHING to calm that overshoot, or gentle the oscillations etc et
[17:26:56] <theBear> c
[17:27:13] <creep> cooked a loaf at 160C settingit is gentle
[17:27:14] <theBear> yeah, just thought you were talking about bringing in outside air for some reason
[17:27:21] <creep> ah
[17:27:52] <creep> cooked a loaf at 160C setting, i just have to be careful not to overshoot much IR because it will carbonize the top
[17:27:55] <theBear> could be interesting tho, you could experiment with cooking things in relatively cool surroundings, imagine if you will, your current setup but without ANY enclosing walls
[17:28:15] <creep> sooo it is gentle, the IR lamps glow steadily on demand after stabilized
[17:28:38] <theBear> yup, i was just using glowing red bars to make my one piece of toast thismorning, looked at irc for a minute, and it was pretty carbonised :) fortunately i have butter knives and a sink :)
[17:28:52] <theBear> yup, so yer already not doing pure sig-delt
[17:28:54] <creep> :)
[17:29:13] <creep> hack a diode a comparator, and an SSR on it
[17:29:24] <theBear> hehe
[17:29:25] <creep> 180C at most you want
[17:29:34] <theBear> it'd be like a disco
[17:29:42] <creep> :)
[17:29:52] <creep> no, it will just glow stable
[17:30:04] <creep> the thermal mass of heating elements is large
[17:30:48] <theBear> you gotta finally show me what these lamps i been hearing somuch about look like one of these das
[17:30:50] <theBear> days
[17:31:16] <creep> haven't seen an IR lamp yet ?
[17:31:45] <creep> hah, now i MUST buy popcorn, i always forget
[17:32:00] <creep> it pops at 150-180C
[17:32:41] <creep> theBear<<
http://gongtao.en.alibaba.com/product/618443059-214100976/Quartz_Short_Wave_Infrared_IR_Lamps.html
[17:33:18] <theBear> pfft, i meant to say when i'm not drunkand half asleep, not one of these days, but it's too late now
[17:33:19] <creep> this heats the inside of the loaf better than a simple heater
[17:33:52] <theBear> oh, just quartz heater elements eh, hardly fair calling that a lamp... i wonder what the technical cutoff point is
[17:34:10] <theBear> between a lamp and err, a heating element i suppose
[17:34:34] <creep> yes actually it is the "QUARTZ" word that makes a difference
[17:35:20] <creep> that opal quartz converts visible, and non visible light to IR that it naturally emits
[17:36:05] <theBear> huh ? isn't it just a solid quartz bar like a room-heater ?
[17:36:49] <theBear> you better not go tell me all those bars i seen over the years are just 'phosphors' for some filiament inside now, that'll blow my mind !
[17:36:55] <creep> no it is not a solid quartz heater... it has a nickel plated wire that is heating it from the inside, that is why you see the spiral inside, and this is why it whizzes when you shake them...
[17:37:04] <theBear> i'll be more disappointed than when i foundout most walls were hollow and ugly inside
[17:37:17] <theBear> good god ! it's got nichrome in there ?
[17:37:41] <creep> yeah lol, you can toast your bread with your room heater if you turn down the IR power...
[17:37:55] <theBear> but, i've never seen a spiral inside, i've played with them physically, i'm 98% sure i've even seen one broken in half, they behave like a solid quartz bar physically
[17:38:14] <theBear> some of them are even transparent ! i call shenanigans !
[17:38:36] <creep> well the cheap toaster oven uses ir lamp from the lowest possible quality :) so i even looked at the inside ....
[17:38:59] <creep> the end wasn't fixed in any way, the wire coil started to come out when i pulled a bit
[17:39:05] <theBear> stayed with a old buddy to best man for him last year, they had a ludicrous one, it glowed like the friggin sun, big panel of the things about 2'*1' with SHINY reflectors behind them
[17:39:56] <creep> i'm sure quality products don't come apart this easy, and maybe the wire is fixed inside somehow too
[17:40:00] <theBear> i'm sure the big multi thousand watt heaters are pure 'stone' ... can't say if it's quartz for sure, tho i always assumed it was from the look and feel... seriously, i'm 110% sure i've looked thru transparent bars of pure quartz-like material
[17:40:11] <creep> no idea
[17:40:35] <creep> if they doped the quartz with something to conduct then maybe...
[17:40:52] <theBear> with both bulbs of all kinds, AND nichrome/similar heating element stuff, over time the constant heat and expansion cycles tend to make things come a bit loose, especially at the ends which have the most 'room to move'
[17:41:12] <creep> sure, they are rated at 10-15k hors...
[17:41:30] <theBear> quartz must conduct to some extent, it's piezoelectric, AND these are big thick bars (maybe 3/4" avg) on 240vac, which gets you err, 320 or so peak from memory
[17:42:50] <creep> piezo is a very good insulator.
[17:42:58] <creep> it is ceramic
[17:43:55] <theBear> it is ? either way, it definately conducts some amount or piezoelectric effects couldn't happen, tho i suppose it doesn't need to be a LOT for that
[17:44:17] <theBear> but piezoelectric is FAR from pure electric-field movement
[17:44:17] <creep> it polarizes
[17:44:38] <creep> acts like a capacitor/crystal
[17:44:51] <creep> and it has a self resonant frequency too
[17:45:02] <creep> mechanical resonance.
[17:45:54] <creep> sure, everything conducts current, given high enough frequency/voltage
[17:45:59] <theBear> i'm not talking about speakers in watches, at least i wasn't thinking about them
[17:46:17] <creep> this is how dielectric plasic welding works
[17:46:35] <theBear> the wha ? i aint heard of welding plastic that way before
[17:47:30] <creep> capacitors have losses that causes internal heating
[17:47:56] <creep> something like polar molecules in the microwave oven
[17:53:07] <theBear> yeah i know i know, but they also conduct current, at least until they fill up
[18:00:58] <Horologium> high enough voltage and ANYTHING will conduct..
[18:02:25] <theBear> yeah, he said that, and we all know that, but 240v isn't that high, whatever this clear quartz-like 'stone' they use in some of the heaters is, a 3/4" crossection of would have to be around ooh, 1ohm/10cm
[18:02:57] <theBear> erg, my bodyparts can't take anymore of this, i'm out
[18:03:19] <Toneloc> oh creep, did you buy those from alibada ?
[18:03:36] <creep> no, that was the only one i found
[18:03:51] <creep> i juust got a cheap IR toaster oven that i hacked
[18:04:22] <creep> this has 700W in it btw
[18:04:29] <Toneloc> ah , even better:)
[18:05:19] <creep> it can carbonize a toast in a few minutes at full power
[18:06:09] <Horologium> so can a good tesla coil.
[18:06:59] <theBear> i can do it in 5 seconds with a mini bottle-torch
[18:07:10] <theBear> and again, this time for sure, hands off keybaord !
[19:34:34] <Valen> anybody done synchronous ADC readings with PWM?
[19:34:44] <Valen> IE pwm is on so take an ADC reading
[19:35:48] <Valen> anything of note to do with it?
[19:35:55] <Valen> secret gotchas or anything?
[19:51:02] <Malinuss> Valen, yes - if PWM is too fast (too fast vs duty cycle %), you won't mak'e it
[19:51:32] <Valen> basically I want to sense the current in a LED
[19:51:45] <Valen> I can run the PWM pretty slowly really I guess
[19:51:58] <Valen> I'll be doing hardware and software PWM
[19:55:14] <creep> it can be done, if you do not want fast adc result
[19:55:41] <Malinuss> Valen, you know the adc measures voltage, and not current, right?
[19:58:18] <creep> Valen<< for photodiode amplification you need a picoamper input current (TeraOhm) operational amplifier
[19:58:50] <Valen> I'll be doing a differential of a sense resistor with 20x amplification
[19:59:43] <Valen> plan is to develop on a 16u4, then move it into a attiny24 for production
[19:59:46] <[z_z]> got a constant current source anywhere? try it out and see if you can measure accurately.
[20:00:09] <Valen> with any luck the TEK lab supply will be repaired today
[20:00:13] <Valen> so that should do
[20:00:23] <Valen> though i spose it could well be out of calibration now lol
[20:00:54] <Valen> we got it free from a friend who ordered it from overseas, postie got it to his door, then dropped it in the process of handing it over
[20:00:54] <[z_z]> yay! measure the measuring measurements!
[20:01:08] <Valen> smashed the front panel into tiny tiny pieces
[20:01:36] <Valen> that won't affect the calibration right..... ;->
[20:02:14] <Valen> its within 10% of the $5 multimeter i had laying about
[20:02:35] * Valen will be trying to measure 5ma or less lol
[20:05:27] <Valen> Oh the production one is super volume limited so I wont have room to isolate and buffer the reading
[20:05:40] <Valen> though i spose for a synchronous setup thats probably a good thing
[20:21:31] <Valen> hmm, I'm going to need a micro amp meter, any suggestions?
[20:25:04] <Toneloc> valen- yeah, plecto was building one today, he posted a video and all
[20:25:17] <Valen> lol snap
[20:25:19] <Valen> url?
[20:25:51] <Toneloc> valen- go to ##electronics, he is on there
[20:26:15] <Toneloc> his name is on the list, but he could be idling, idk
[20:27:20] <Toneloc> ask in the channel, someone may have a link, i don't -i was on a different machine earlier
[20:29:13] <Valen> hmm, this could do the job too
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MODEL-643-FLUSH-MICRO-AMMETER-0-10-MICRO-A-SEE-PHOTOS-D564-/390545781716?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item5aee57b3d4&_uhb=1#ht_2112wt_1165
[20:33:09] <Toneloc> Valen- ah, those!
[20:33:15] <Toneloc> I have some of those
[20:33:25] <Toneloc> that is a total rip off
[20:33:28] <Toneloc> way too much
[20:33:39] <Toneloc> Plecto built one with an LCD screen
[20:33:52] <Valen> if it is in fact the whole thing not just a panel meter its not too bad
[20:33:55] <Toneloc> and an AVR
[20:34:07] <Toneloc> its only a panel meter
[20:34:12] <Toneloc> witha shunt resistor
[20:34:15] <Toneloc> *with a
[20:34:46] <Valen> at that range its probably not a shunt resistor
[20:34:55] <Valen> its probably running the current through the meter
[20:35:58] <Toneloc> hmm, well, quite true!
[20:36:08] <Toneloc> it wouldn't need a shunt!
[20:36:18] <Valen> it would need an assload of turns
[23:02:41] <RifRaf> how much current can i source from avr pins? 50mA ok
[23:02:53] <Valen> no
[23:03:13] <Valen> somewhat less than what the datasheet says in absolute maximum ratings
[23:03:37] <Valen> Most avr datasheets don't seem to actually give a max rated current.
[23:04:22] <RifRaf> not even 25mA
[23:04:38] <Valen> occasionally a PIC will do 25ma
[23:05:00] <Valen> i *believe* most avrs are happy at 15 but others with more experience should know better
[23:05:27] <RifRaf> its just for a bright led, currently drawing approx 26mA, will add more resistance and get to below 15 then
[23:05:36] <Valen> double check
[23:05:38] <Casper> datasheet say 40mA max, 100mA per port, 200mA per power pin
[23:05:47] <Casper> on those I checked
[23:06:01] <Casper> beware that the port power is shared with part of the chip too
[23:06:12] <Valen> see the thing is, an absolute max rating means "you wont damage it at this level but operation here isn't guaranteed"
[23:06:33] <Valen> why don't atmel publish a max operational spec per pin
[23:06:58] <Valen> IE every other company says max current 20ma, absolute max 40 (or whatever)