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[07:21:39] <jadew> I just got my msp430 from ti, I don't know how they can afford to send this stuff with DHL
[07:21:56] <jadew> they sent me 3 boxes (I also got some free PCBs)
[07:22:22] <jadew> the guy from DHL said it would cost about $50 to send each box if I were to send them back to holland
[07:23:02] <Malinuss> haha
[07:23:32] <Malinuss> oh good jadew.. you have a legitme use for it, or just for fun?
[07:23:57] <jadew> Malinuss, I wanna try it out
[07:24:14] <Tom_itx> they write it off
[07:24:42] <Malinuss> jadew, last time I tried I've got an email "Malinusware doesn't seem to be a real company you won't get anything, go fuck yourself, cheers TI"
[07:24:45] <jadew> still, it's a huge difference
[07:24:55] <jadew> I paid $4.30 for the whole thing
[07:25:15] <jadew> Malinuss, I didn't do it trough the sample program
[07:25:20] <jadew> I went trough the store
[07:25:26] <Malinuss> ah ;D
[07:25:37] <jadew> and they had some PCBs priced with 0 :P
[07:25:48] <Malinuss> and you don
[07:25:50] <jadew> I figured why not :P
[07:25:57] <Malinuss> *and you don't pay for shipping?
[07:26:02] <jadew> nothing
[07:26:05] <Malinuss> wut
[07:26:10] <Malinuss> how does that even work?
[07:26:25] <seldon> I wouldn't be surprised if they had some sort of bulk arrangement with DHL.
[07:26:26] <jadew> I have no clue, they sent 2 additional boxes only for those 5 PCBs
[07:26:33] <jadew> which are smaller than 5x5 cm
[07:27:13] <jadew> seldon, clearly, but still, 3 big boxes when it could have been only one
[07:28:00] <Malinuss> I still don't get why they turned me off on their sample program, people are always claiming that they do ono bg checks....
[07:28:03] <Malinuss> *no
[07:28:05] <seldon> Did they come on the same day?
[07:28:40] <jadew> seldon, yeah
[07:28:49] <jadew> Malinuss, I think they turned me down for samples too
[07:29:19] <Malinuss> really? All I wanted were 3 op-amps. It's not like I'm so greedy jew
[07:29:42] <Malinuss> (ups no racism intended)
[07:29:49] <seldon> jadew, maybe they store the stuff in different warehouses or something. Probably snafu, anyway.
[07:30:23] <jadew> yeah
[07:31:20] <jadew> ok, so the launchpad came with an additional chip
[07:32:01] <jadew> some pins, a crystal (there's not one on the board - only for the chips that handle the usb com)
[07:32:06] <jadew> and a usb cable
[07:32:31] <jadew> http://www.ti.com/ww/en/launchpad/graphics/banners/msp430_banner_new.jpg
[07:32:44] <jadew> this is what the board looks like (the one in the middle)
[07:33:58] <seldon> So what are you going to do with it?
[07:34:16] <jadew> gonna see what it can do for the price, see how it compares to avr
[07:34:23] <jadew> it never hurts to have alternatives
[07:34:41] <jadew> they seem to have gcc suppport too
[07:38:37] <seldon> Which msp430 is that, exactly? I want to know which datasheet I have to download :P
[07:40:04] <MrMobius> the launchpad comes with a g2553
[07:40:05] <jadew> give me a sec
[07:40:16] <MrMobius> and the other is a g2533 i think or something a little smaller
[07:40:25] <jadew> M430G2553
[07:41:34] <MrMobius> yeah, it comes with two chips
[07:42:01] <jadew> you're right, they're different
[07:42:16] <jadew> the other one is G2452
[07:42:55] <MrMobius> yeah
[07:45:56] <jadew> it looks like a decent mcu
[07:47:40] <MrMobius> yeah, i got one about a year ago. i like it.
[07:48:43] <MrMobius> and some of the SMD ones are bigger and nicer
[07:50:49] <jadew> is the F series more expensive?
[07:50:57] <jadew> cuz I really don't like the prices
[07:51:41] <MrMobius> well the smd boards can be expensive but the F series DIPs are not more expensive afaik. i never bout the F series DIPs thought because they have less flash
[07:51:44] <jadew> the store I buy from only has the F series
[07:51:45] <MrMobius> than the g2553
[07:52:32] <MrMobius> yeah, i have been looking today at PICs and 8051s because i cant get msp430s where i live either
[07:52:44] <MrMobius> mouser has g2553s for around $2 though
[07:52:51] <jadew> I see
[07:55:17] <jadew> the ones I can see here are $7+
[07:55:53] <MrMobius> where is that? link?
[07:56:06] <jadew> on tme.eu
[07:56:24] <jadew> also keep in mind that's before VAT
[07:58:15] <MrMobius> hmm. those are all SMD. would you use DIP?
[07:58:46] <jadew> yeah, I would prefer SMD
[08:00:02] <MrMobius> http://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/MSP430G2553IPW20R/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsuBfEaN9EhVfYZt6BYjt4m
[08:00:10] <MrMobius> and 20 cents cheaper than the same chip in DIP
[08:00:34] <MrMobius> i think thats the best SMD chip that has a DIP equivalent. lets look at the SMD only ones too.
[08:02:28] <jadew> the price on mouser is not bad
[08:02:39] <jadew> but usually things in this part of the world will cost a lot more than on mouser
[08:03:21] <MrMobius> where do you live
[08:03:50] <MrMobius> this one is $12 but it has 256k flash, 16k ram, and 25mhz
http://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/MSP430F5438AIPZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvfhsTlJjecMLWkkCiu7rYYLWtx616JeCY%3d
[08:03:51] <jadew> romania
[08:04:06] <MrMobius> the last one is 16k flash, 0.5k ram and 16mhz
[08:04:29] <MrMobius> yeah i imagnie it would be expensive there
[09:51:54] <Malinuss> So I'm looking at this datasheet(
http://datasheet.octopart.com/CD4050BE-Texas-Instruments-datasheet-148518.pdf) but apprently I'm too retarded to understand it (looking at the CD4050B)... So, how does the level conversion work? What if I use 6V as input, what would the output be?
[10:05:47] <seldon> Ouput should be either VCC or 0, unless I'm being very stupid.
[10:07:16] <Malinuss> seldon, so if I wanted to shift level from 5V to 3.3V. I would just have 3.3V as VCC, and give it 5V as inputs, and 3.3V would be on the outputs?
[10:09:10] <seldon> I'm not sure if the thing likes input voltages over VCC. The figures on page 5 don't seem to consider that case.
[10:10:18] <seldon> But judging by figure 1B, it should.
[10:14:48] <seldon> Since IN only goes to fet gates and decides if OUT is connected to VCC or VSS.
[10:15:26] <Malinuss> seldon, so how does it work? It only converts 5-20V to 5V?
[10:15:28] <Malinuss> I don't get it
[10:18:32] <seldon> If IN is high, the left n-channel fet becomes conductive. If it is low, the p-channel does. Depending on that, OUT is either connected to VCC or VSS.
[10:19:38] <seldon> In the right diagram, there's a second stage to that; depending on IN, the gates of the right FETs are connected to either VCC or VSS, and OUT is then connected to the other.
[10:19:51] <Malinuss> ... so?
[10:20:27] <seldon> So in any case, OUT is always either VCC or VSS.
[10:21:16] <Malinuss> seldon, so I could actually use it to convert 5v logic input to 3.3V?
[10:21:34] <Malinuss> seldon, would it work "the other way" too?
[10:21:55] <Malinuss> VSS would be ground, right?
[10:22:01] <Malinuss> and VCC would be just 3.3V
[10:22:39] <seldon> VSS is ground, yes.
[10:23:01] <Malinuss> so it would work?
[10:23:16] <seldon> You mean if input high were 3.3 and VCC 5V?
[10:23:42] <Malinuss> seldon, no if my input high would be 5V and the VCC 3.3V. if the output high would be 3.3V then?
[10:23:47] <Malinuss> that's what I want
[10:23:52] <seldon> Yes.
[10:24:22] <seldon> That should work, I think.
[10:24:30] <Malinuss> seldon, what if the output would be high, would that "travel" to the input too? so I could use it "the other way"
[10:24:51] <seldon> No.
[10:25:00] <Malinuss> I see
[10:30:30] <seldon> You would either connect your 3.3V high to VCC or VSS, which would do nothing or essentially short-circuit. I can't tell if the chip is protected against that scenario.
[10:44:42] <creep> Malinuss<< that is a level converter cmos ic, from the schematic it is crystal clear that the input voltage can be anything from 0-15V, and you can drive it from 5V power
[10:46:25] <creep> it may not work down to 3.3V
[10:47:13] <creep> for low speed you can use 2 resistors to divide it (or 1 resistor to just limit current)
[11:02:52] <Captain_Haddock> Hullo!
[11:06:27] <Captain_Haddock> ok, so this channel has nothing to do with audio-video receivers :(
[11:06:39] <Captain_Haddock> ciao :)
[11:06:39] <yunta> haha
[11:06:52] <yunta> not much, no :)
[11:07:02] <Captain_Haddock> :D
[11:07:03] <Captain_Haddock> later
[11:15:54] <Malinuss> haha
[11:16:03] <Malinuss> avr = audio - video - recivers
[11:16:05] <Malinuss> good one ;D
[13:00:51] <creep> h
[13:41:34] <Tom_itx> from 5 forward it is very bloated
[13:41:38] <Malinuss> creep, I have a 2 SPI connection between my 5V uC and the SPI devices uses 3.3V.... Right now I'm using voltage dividers, but I'm looking for a better solution
[13:42:01] <creep> Malinuss<< just go to 3.3V microcontroller
[13:42:48] <Malinuss> creep, sigh... I was about to write "im open to sugestion". But that is a pretty bad one ;P. It's like saying, "hey my car doesn't fit those wheels" - "buy a car that does"...
[13:42:58] <creep> lol
[13:43:18] <creep> any decent atmel works at 3.3V
[13:43:42] <Malinuss> creep, yeah, but then it runs at 8MHz..
[13:43:49] <creep> or 20MHz
[13:44:01] <Malinuss> well, not my atmega32u4
[13:44:12] <Malinuss> it's rated to 8MHz with 3.3V
[13:44:16] <creep> ;/
[13:44:32] <creep> check out atmega48
[13:44:43] <creep> there is the new version that is even better
[13:45:03] <Malinuss> well I'm not looking to buy a new uC, I rather just find a solution for this
[13:45:12] <creep> http://www.atmel.com/devices/ATMEGA48.aspx
[13:45:15] <creep> atmega48v
[13:45:29] <creep> that is 10MHz h
[13:45:56] <Malinuss> haha 4KB flash
[13:46:23] <Malinuss> makes you think it's a tiny
[13:46:49] <damjan> Malinuss: you could use a level shifter
[13:47:22] <creep> ok then 168 :)
[13:47:33] <Malinuss> damjan, yeah that was my plan, I just can't find any cheap once
[13:47:39] <creep> hm, i can't find the type i remember, 20MHz at 3.3V
[13:48:07] <creep> atmega48v states 0 - 10MHz @ 2.7V - 5.5V
[13:48:28] <damjan> Malinuss: depends how many you need, I've grabbed some free samples from both TI and Maxim :)
[13:48:56] <Malinuss> damjan, I've been sample-rejected from TI twice already, heh
[13:49:11] <Malinuss> damjan, you remember any of their names?
[13:49:16] <damjan> max3001 afaik
[13:49:32] <Malinuss> Bidirectional?
[13:49:42] <damjan> yes
[13:49:44] <damjan> and txs0108e
[13:49:51] <Tom_itx> nxp
[13:49:54] <Tom_itx> cheap
[13:50:09] <damjan> I still haven't got the TI ones though, will see
[13:50:18] <Tom_itx> better than max
[13:50:27] <Malinuss> Tom_itx, "nxp" what?
[13:50:43] <Tom_itx> level converter
[13:50:55] <Malinuss> ah. what is it more called then "nxp"?
[13:51:05] <Tom_itx> nxp is the brand
[13:51:12] <Malinuss> ah
[13:51:28] <Tom_itx> how many bits?
[13:51:41] <Tom_itx> GTL2003PW
[13:51:42] <Tom_itx> is one
[13:51:46] <Tom_itx> 8bit iirc
[13:51:53] <creep> found it,
http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc8271.pdf ATMEGA168PA but they say 4.5-5.5V 20MHz ;/
[13:51:55] <Tom_itx> no direction pin needed
[13:52:24] <creep> damjan<< how many thousand items you told them you will buy? ;>>
[13:52:56] <damjan> a bilion thousand :)
[13:53:14] <Malinuss> lol
[13:53:24] <Malinuss> well I guess that's what I should have said too
[13:53:38] <creep> you have sold your soul to them
[13:54:04] <creep> soon they will come and collect
[13:54:15] <damjan> TI didn't ask for that btw
[13:59:13] <creep> http://www.atmel.com/devices/ATMEGA8.aspx
[13:59:22] <creep> i don't really get these speed ratings...
[14:00:17] <creep> it should be some continuous line, not 4.5V 20MHz 4.49V 8MHz
[14:04:22] <creep> damjan<< something like this
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?topic=131618.0
[14:04:35] <creep> http://www.gammon.com.au/images/Atmega_Speed_Vs_Voltage_11497.png
[14:08:52] <creep> http://jeelabs.org/2010/12/16/voltage-3-3-vs-5/
[14:16:59] <creep> http://www.last.fm/music/Basscharmer/I'd+Hit+It.+With+A+Crowbar.+Yeah.+Single. ^^
[16:11:57] <tandoori> man i am so excited to receive my digikey ordered avrs so i can get started assembling my project
[16:14:26] <asteve> I know the feeling
[16:15:26] <tandoori> i really should begin trying to write a program for it. i think i will just purchase a book titled 'The joy of programming AVRs using C'
[16:15:42] <tandoori> i have seen quie a few tutorials, but they dont go into the depth i am looking for
[16:16:36] <yunta> tandoori: I think the best tutorial is just reading the spec
[16:17:00] <tandoori> really? do you reckon the spec will have all the answers?
[16:19:55] <RikusW> all you need is the datasheets and some creativity ;)
[16:20:12] <RikusW> though books might be helpful
[16:22:31] <RikusW> creep: there is a clock speed vs voltage graph in the datasheet
[16:22:43] <RikusW> look in the electrical specs chatper
[16:22:48] <RikusW> *chapter
[16:23:09] <Malinuss> tandoori, also, read some DC theory - very important
[16:23:24] <tandoori> why do you keep tellig me that
[16:23:32] <tandoori> i understand DC just fine
[16:23:37] * tandoori spanks Malinuss
[16:23:39] <tzanger> reading the spec is the worst thing you can do if you're a newb
[16:24:00] <Malinuss> maybe not the worst, but you propably won't learn much
[16:24:12] <tzanger> just start making lights blink. when things get weird, looking at the spec gives insight, and once you're more experienced, you can look at specs to gain insight and so on
[16:24:15] <Malinuss> tandoori,
http://www.avrbeginners.net/
[16:24:41] <tandoori> i read that
[16:24:46] <tandoori> they dont focus on c stuff
[16:24:50] <Malinuss> and?
[16:24:57] <tandoori> and im not interested
[16:25:01] <tandoori> c only my friend
[16:25:14] <Malinuss> don't focus on the code then
[16:25:17] <Malinuss> write in in C
[16:25:21] <RikusW> tzanger: I started with the only the datasheets and appnotes a few years ago
[16:25:47] <tzanger> RikusW: not many people start there and don't get discouraged
[16:26:02] <RikusW> well it did take a while
[16:26:12] <RikusW> but I had some background
[16:26:34] <tzanger> I've been doing embedded design for a very, very long time now but when I was starting out I was a weird one... I liked reading the old PIC16 datasheets, the C64 programmer's reference (with schematics!) and all kinds of hardcore tech material
[16:26:42] <RikusW> tandoori: AVR asm is really easy
[16:26:59] <tandoori> i dont care, ASM takes too much time to work with
[16:27:02] <tzanger> what drew me to AVR was gcc and avr-libc, tbh
[16:27:10] <tzanger> it was pretty much giddy up and go
[16:27:19] <tzanger> no bullshit IDEs and proprietary tools
[16:27:27] <RikusW> I like the AVR arch much more than PIC....
[16:27:44] <tzanger> RikusW: I cut my teeth professionally on PIC but I've since seen the light
[16:27:54] <RikusW> lol
[16:28:09] <Malinuss> tandoori, but there isn't anything specific in AVR-C as such... you just change register values, that's all...
[16:28:36] <tzanger> Malinuss: sure, but avr-libc has those handy macros you just use instead of dereferencing pointers by hand and such
[16:29:18] <Malinuss> tzanger, yeah of course, you can use those if you want. I'm just saying, if you can use C there isn't anything specific you should learn to program a mcu
[16:29:24] <RikusW> It appears that AVR is cheaper than PIC anyways :)
[16:29:25] <tzanger> oh for sure
[16:29:44] <RikusW> There is only one thing I would have liked to have on AVR, execution from RAM like 8051
[16:29:49] <tzanger> RikusW: yes, but I'm looking over at stm32 these days too... cheaper than AVR and more powerful
[16:30:02] <RikusW> AVR32 ?
[16:30:08] <tzanger> stm32
[16:30:15] <RikusW> xmega ?
[16:30:29] <tzanger> xmega is nice, stm32 seems to beat it out yet though
[16:30:37] <RikusW> ok
[16:31:00] <RikusW> so STM32 is cheaper than AVR32 ?
[16:31:00] <Malinuss> what do you guys think about the properall?
[16:31:09] <Malinuss> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_Propeller
[16:31:10] <tzanger> that sounds like a drug
[16:31:19] <tzanger> oh propeller. proprietary. yuck.
[16:31:24] <tzanger> it's like the rabbit processors
[16:31:36] <Malinuss> "rabbit processors"?'
[16:31:44] <RikusW> rabid processors :-P
[16:31:53] <tzanger> www.rabbit.com
[16:31:53] <RikusW> Malinuss: google it
[16:31:54] <tandoori> someone told me that it is bad to use a laptop to program an AVR, is this true or false?
[16:32:01] <tzanger> tandoori: unilaterally false
[16:32:04] <Malinuss> lel
[16:32:15] <tandoori> tzanger: i thought so
[16:32:21] <Malinuss> but what is wrong with the propeller? I don't get it
[16:32:34] <Malinuss> it looks pretty sweet - 8 cores at 128mhz
[16:32:37] <tandoori> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-ATIV-Smart-500T-Tablet/dp/B009LL9U50 i am getting that and putting avrdude on it
[16:33:20] <Malinuss> why all the hate tzanger ?
[16:33:33] <tzanger> RikusW: if I'm going to 32-bit I'll go to ARM and be done with it. Same with the PIC32. Why screw around with MIPS
[16:33:36] <tzanger> Malinuss: no hate
[16:33:42] <tzanger> just dislike proprietary crap
[16:34:02] <Malinuss> what do you mean by proprietary? How is avr not that?
[16:34:29] <tzanger> standard compilers and tools (gcc, gdb, JTAG), open source peripheral library (avr-libc), decent prices and availability
[16:35:19] <tzanger> propeller = nonstandard CPU ("cog"), so you're learning a sole-source ISA, or using their proprietary language ("spin"). no thanks
[16:35:45] <Malinuss> I see, thanks for clearing that up tzanger
[16:35:49] * RikusW is reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mppt
[16:35:51] <tandoori> tzanger: i wanted to get that tablet so i can program avrs on the go :-P
[16:36:05] <tzanger> tandoori: nice. I just use my laptop
[16:36:17] <tandoori> meh too bulky :-P
[16:36:45] <tzanger> tandoori: an 11" air is too bulky? You're gonna be tapping out avrdude commands on a touchscreen or carrying along a bt keyboard. who's bulkier now? :-)
[16:36:58] <tandoori> and it has a keyboard which i wasn't interested in. Ive been using an ipad for so long that i am a pro using a touch keyboard
[16:36:59] <tzanger> RikusW: MPPT is fun. I spent 13 years in industrial power electronics
[16:38:12] * RikusW is considering building a solar MPPT regulator sometime
[16:38:18] <RikusW> inverters too
[16:38:35] <RikusW> The commercial ones are crazily expensive
[16:39:55] <tzanger> yep
[16:40:02] <tzanger> if you're building your own just remember fusing
[16:40:39] <RikusW> yes.... boom, smoke fire... :-/
[16:40:48] <tandoori> tzanger: I actually perfer touch screens
[16:41:33] <RikusW> some inverters get close to $3000...
[16:41:52] <tzanger> depends on what they're doing and how much you're paying for a name, but yes
[16:42:11] <RikusW> how much cheaper could homebuilt be ?
[16:42:39] <tzanger> how many kW?
[16:42:47] <RikusW> say 2 or so
[16:43:08] <tzanger> generally speaking homebrew isn't necessarily cheaper, you spend a lot more time and when parts blow they need to be replaced
[16:43:38] <tzanger> you could probably build something for a few hundred dollars for the components. the most expensive part would be the power stack I think
[16:43:52] <tzanger> the controller is cheap, the software and development thereof is expensive
[16:44:18] <RikusW> If I can do it for half the price, I can start selling it :)
[16:44:44] <yunta> tandoori: seriously? coding on touchscreen? hunt& peck ?
[16:44:56] <tzanger> well as soon as you start selling it you need to work in grid-tie safeties and the second you exchange money for a unit you're potentially on the hook for it failing and hurting/killing someone
[16:45:04] * RikusW prefers the good old keyboard
[16:45:05] <tandoori> yunta: yes. i am used to it and i like doing it
[16:45:28] <tandoori> i used to code all the time on my ipad under theos
[16:45:34] <tzanger> then depending where you are there is uL/cUL, CSA, EU directives, a proper enclosure, self-protection from idiots who think they know what they're doing, etc.
[16:46:17] <tzanger> in reality the difference between a 100W unit and a 100kW unit is very little
[16:46:28] <RikusW> It seems enclosures can be quite expensive...
[16:46:59] <RikusW> and foolproofing it takes time...
[16:47:03] <tzanger> yes, but you can knock out steel enclosures pretty cheaply once you get the design down. metal fab isn't terribly expensive
[16:47:04] <yunta> tandoori: isn't that like... 4 times slower ?
[16:47:13] <tandoori> not at all
[16:47:19] <tzanger> foolproofing is terribly difficult because fools are so fucking ingenious. :-)
[16:47:40] <yunta> hm, maybe I should learn typing on touchscreen then....
[16:47:47] <tzanger> a dead short is easier to protect against than a loose connection, as a simple example
[16:48:05] <RikusW> wrong polarity ?
[16:48:12] <tandoori> i have not had any problems. once you train yourself to the on screen keyboard, AND learn how to type without haptic feedback, you are good to go
[16:48:14] <RikusW> fuse + clamp ?
[16:48:35] <tandoori> one of the only reasons people complain about touch screen keyboards is because there is no tactile feedback
[16:49:00] <yunta> tandoori: yes, that's my biggest problem
[16:49:04] <tzanger> fuse and clamp yes, a loose connection can cause voltage spikes, high current draw and burning
[16:49:06] <tandoori> I, on the other hand, have enough hand eye coordination to tell when i have pressed something and a character appears on the screen
[16:49:22] <yunta> tandoori: and the fact that I can't fit both hands on 7 inches nexus :(
[16:49:36] <tandoori> yunta: sausage fingers?
[16:50:00] <tzanger> I like my 11" laptop. I had a 13" for years but went down a size for better airplane use, and frankly as long as it's a standard keyboard I seem to have no issues
[16:50:20] <tzanger> once in a while I wish the screen would flip aorund entirely so I can use it as a touchscreen but by and large I'm very happy with the laptop format
[16:51:00] <yunta> tzanger: I have that in lenovo s10-3t, mostly useless....
[16:51:12] <yunta> rotating touchscreen that is
[16:52:00] <tzanger> yunta: I don't know if there's an OS that really does it right yet
[16:52:18] <yunta> hm, fedora 18 seems to be almost there
[16:53:20] <yunta> tandoori: my problem with lack of tactile feedback is also that I'm used to look at the text I write, so looking at keyboard&back is painful
[16:53:33] <RikusW> tzanger: it should be possible to detect a loose noisy connection and shutdown ?
[16:53:57] <tzanger> yes, it was just an example of something nonintuitive that it'd be helpful to design against
[16:55:03] <tzanger> ahh, that s10-3t has an atom driving it. that's probably the bigger reason it's useless
[16:55:53] <RikusW> I've seen some people make a mess of wiring and connections ...
[16:56:09] <tzanger> yes and generally it blows up, there's no warranty and you move on
[16:56:18] <tzanger> but loose connections are one of those things that are a bitch to prove
[16:56:18] <yunta> tzanger: actually, cpu is surprisingly capable. but it's very bulky and heavy computer for it's size... also, bigger screen could fit in such a big one
[16:56:49] <tzanger> yunta: that's my exact complaint with the air... why it's got a full 1" border around the screen (and didn't have a high-res screen like the smaller ipad) is beyond me
[16:57:15] <tzanger> if this thing had a slightly bigger screen (whcih would fit anyway) and 1080p or better I'd be a very happy camper. I'm happy, but not very happy. ;_)
[16:57:18] <tzanger> er :-)
[16:57:56] * RikusW have worked on live 380Vac 3 phase wiring boxes....
[16:58:29] <tzanger> RikusW: nice. what was it for?
[16:58:48] <RikusW> usually to shift the wires to the remaining phase when on 22kV line went down...
[16:58:58] <RikusW> *one
[16:59:10] <RikusW> we have 3 phase on the farm
[16:59:37] <RikusW> and lightning frequently takes out a line or all of it... :-/
[16:59:47] <tzanger> heh
[16:59:54] <tzanger> you don't have a generator on a PTO shaft?
[17:00:12] <RikusW> the remaining 2 phases measure around 110Vac.... enough to blow fridges
[17:00:23] <RikusW> we had a generator for PTO
[17:00:40] <RikusW> now only a petrol 5kW generator
[17:01:13] <tzanger> so you blew a line on what I'm guessing was a delta system if your other phases went screwy with respect to ground
[17:01:33] <tzanger> i.e. the delta "rebalanced" and blew shit up
[17:01:38] <RikusW> the 22kV part is delta
[17:02:24] <RikusW> the 380V side is a combination of 2 phases per wire x3
[17:02:35] <RikusW> star
[17:03:01] <tzanger> right, with the center point of the star being grounded?
[17:03:11] <RikusW> yes
[17:03:21] <RikusW> connected to neutral on the plugs
[17:03:38] <RikusW> the black wire, the others are red white blue
[17:03:42] <tzanger> yes, but also ot physical earth?
[17:03:47] <tzanger> (at the transformer)
[17:03:47] <RikusW> yes
[17:04:15] <tzanger> I'm trying to visualize how blowing a phase on the 22kV side would cause a 110V "offset" on the secondary if the secondary's grounded correctly
[17:04:21] <RikusW> a 360kg transformer... 25kVA
[17:04:26] <tzanger> I've seen this a lot on delta systems but usually not on star
[17:04:48] <RikusW> usually one of the HV fuses go
[17:04:50] <tzanger> mind you the 22kV delta side failed, so you probably had a decent imbalance on the primary which could do anything on the secondary
[17:04:58] <RikusW> leaving only 2 HV lines connected
[17:05:03] <tzanger> the secondary phases were probably both balanced, just much, much higher than they should have been :-)
[17:05:58] <RikusW> one phase measures the normal 230V the others are lower, especially when something draw some current it goes to 110V
[17:06:14] <RikusW> I've occasionally seen it up to 200V
[17:06:29] <RikusW> but even a 100W light will lower it a lot
[17:07:52] <RikusW> tzanger: the LV phase side is made up of 2 phases combined
[17:09:49] <RikusW> the diagram on the transformer itself looks like a Y with a bend in each line
[17:18:14] <RikusW> tzanger: like this ->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zigzag_transformer
[17:21:45] <yunta> tandoori: so, tzanger is right that specs suck for newbies. but, if you know C well, and know electronics well, and you know enough about avr to write&compile&upload led blinker, then imho specs (and libs' docs) will answer all your questions
[17:22:34] <tandoori> yunta: i prefer to take the slow and scenic route (but with c coding) i dont mind purchasing a book
[17:58:31] <Tom_itx> jadew, did you say 256 words wasn't big enough for the bootloader?
[17:59:41] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, got my smps today
[17:59:45] <Tom_itx> very cool for the price
[18:05:56] <OndraSter> hehe
[18:06:05] <OndraSter> 256 words for serial BL?
[18:08:04] <Tom_itx> app109 one
[18:09:00] <OndraSter> well 256 instructions is plenty
[18:11:23] <OndraSter_> crappy internet ffs :(
[18:11:31] <OndraSter_> 256 words? plenty of flash
[18:25:55] <jadew> Tom_itx, it was, it just didn't compile with the base address set for 256
[18:30:48] <Tom_itx> mmm signature byte in the xls doesn't match the data sheet
[18:30:54] <Tom_itx> for m168
[18:56:37] <Tom_itx> the xls doesn't work as expected
[19:08:10] <Tom_itx> jadew you busy?
[19:08:29] <Tom_itx> i see why the file isn't working but i'm not sure what it wants
[19:10:46] <jadew> I'm playing a game :P
[19:10:57] <Tom_itx> do you have that xls handy?
[19:11:05] <jadew> yeah, give me a sec tho
[19:11:17] <Tom_itx> they added support for gnuc and in doing so messed up the xls
[19:11:48] <Tom_itx> in the instructions it says 4. change the red text on row 12-14
[19:11:56] <jadew> can we talk in 5?
[19:12:00] <Tom_itx> but it's on 17-19
[19:12:01] <jadew> thre's this dude who hates me
[19:12:16] <Tom_itx> ok
[19:12:41] <Tom_itx> i'd like to get the xls to work is all
[19:12:45] <Tom_itx> no rush
[19:17:35] <Tom_itx> ok it's working now
[19:17:37] <Tom_itx> i think
[19:28:41] <jadew> back
[19:28:43] <jadew> sorry about that
[19:28:55] <jadew> there was a dude following me in every game and targetting me alone
[19:29:05] <jadew> so you got it working Tom_itx?
[19:29:25] <Tom_itx> phone..
[19:29:51] <jadew> ok
[19:31:11] <Tom_itx> it gives you the hex number to enter
[19:31:35] <jadew> yeah, but it doesn't give you the base address, does it?
[19:32:12] <Tom_itx> i think it does
[19:32:24] <Tom_itx> i get code=7c00-7fff
[19:32:34] <Tom_itx> for a m328
[19:32:45] <Tom_itx> i had to enter the data for the m328 in the file
[19:32:56] <jadew> that would work
[19:33:02] <Tom_itx> for a boot size of 512
[19:33:08] <jadew> and it compiled?
[19:33:18] <Tom_itx> haven't had time to try it yet
[19:34:05] <jadew> let me know if it does, it would be nice to have that bootloader available
[19:34:32] <jadew> the device I made is no longer in my posession, gave it to the friend it was intended for, but for future projects
[19:37:43] <Tom_itx> just copy the m168 down to a new line
[19:38:11] <Tom_itx> change the include,NRWW pages, signature bytes
[19:38:17] <Tom_itx> i think the rest is the same
[19:38:23] <jadew> yeah, but it compiles?
[19:38:41] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna try it in a bit
[19:38:48] <Tom_itx> do i need to use studio or does it matter?
[19:39:05] <jadew> it has a make file, it uses winavr I think
[19:39:50] <Tom_itx> so i'd enter 7c00 as the base address?
[19:40:21] <jadew> no, that's way over anything the m168 has
[19:40:29] <Tom_itx> 328
[19:40:35] <jadew> still
[19:40:59] <jadew> what does the xls say?
[19:41:04] <jadew> it should be that number * 2
[19:41:52] <jadew> give me a second to fire the xls up
[19:43:54] <Tom_itx> that's what i wanted you to look at, i'm not sure it's calculating the right cells
[19:44:45] <jadew> yeah, it's not in there, so let's do this ourselves
[19:44:57] <jadew> the fuses are set for 512 words, right?
[19:45:07] <Tom_itx> let's work with the 168
[19:45:10] <Tom_itx> it's in there
[19:45:47] <jadew> 512 words?
[19:46:14] <Tom_itx> yeah
[19:46:23] <Tom_itx> 512 is allowable on that part
[19:46:44] <Tom_itx> and it says it's big enough
[19:47:05] <Tom_itx> check the 'processing' page line 17..19
[19:47:10] <Tom_itx> it will tell you
[19:47:26] <jadew> so 1E00 is the base address in words
[19:47:32] <Tom_itx> so i've got a 168 with 512 boot size
[19:48:01] <jadew> !php echo 0x1E00 * 2
[19:48:01] <jadew> PHP Parse error: parse error, expecting `','' or `';'' in SCRIPT on line 1
[19:48:02] <jadew> !php echo 0x1E00 * 2;
[19:48:03] <jadew> 15360
[19:48:13] <jadew> so that's the base address for the make file
[19:48:25] <jadew> 3c00
[19:48:34] <Tom_itx> that's what i get
[19:48:46] <Tom_itx> 3C00-3FFF
[19:49:17] <jadew> then it's right
[19:49:37] <jadew> did you copy all the settings from the XLS to the defines.h?
[19:49:47] <Tom_itx> no
[19:49:51] <Tom_itx> i need to
[19:49:54] <Tom_itx> i get some errors
[19:50:02] <Tom_itx> return type of main is not int
[19:50:03] <Tom_itx> for one
[19:50:10] <Tom_itx> EEMWE undeclared
[19:50:16] <Tom_itx> EEWE
[19:50:17] <Tom_itx> same
[19:51:00] <jadew> ok, let me configure it
[19:51:07] <jadew> and I'll send you the whole thing
[19:51:38] <Tom_L> do you want the 328 data?
[19:51:47] <Tom_L> ATmega328P iom328.h 64 32 256 0x1E 0x95 0x0F UBRR0L UCSR0B UCSR0A TXEN0 RXEN0 TXC0 RXC0 UDR0 SPMCSR
[19:52:36] <jadew> do you want it configured for atmeg328?
[19:52:47] <Tom_L> i don't care right now
[19:52:58] <Tom_L> i'm just trying to see if this sheet works
[19:53:03] <jadew> k, will do it for 168
[19:53:10] <Tom_L> that's what i have now
[19:54:21] <jadew> ok, so I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing
[19:54:31] <jadew> first, in the defines_h sheet
[19:54:44] <jadew> I'll set that define to _ATMEGA168
[19:54:48] <Tom_L> yup
[19:54:50] <Tom_L> did that
[19:54:58] <Tom_L> then 512 in the next line
[19:55:13] <Tom_L> _B512
[19:55:32] <Tom_L> i changed the cpu freq to 8mhz
[19:55:33] <jadew> yes
[19:55:38] <Tom_L> and 9600 baud
[19:55:41] <Tom_L> for now
[19:55:59] <jadew> ok
[19:56:08] <Tom_L> and just now copied that all to the defines.h file
[19:56:11] <jadew> now, I'll just copy the contents of the sheet
[19:56:15] <jadew> yeah
[19:56:46] <Tom_L> i still get the same errors
[19:57:28] <jadew> let me see
[19:57:38] <Tom_L> CSTANDARD = -std=gnu99
[19:57:43] <Tom_L> would that be why?
[19:58:04] <jadew> yeah, I get that too
[19:58:48] <Tom_L> along with the memory errors
[19:59:04] <Tom_L> EEMWE and EEWE
[20:00:45] <Tom_L> what does link.xcl do ?
[20:00:53] <Tom_L> is it even used here?
[20:00:55] <jadew> no idea
[20:01:20] <Tom_L> you need to edit the last line of it to match the boot
[20:02:12] <Tom_L> -Z(CODE)INTVEC,FAR_F,SWITCH,CODE=3C00-3FFF
[20:02:54] <Tom_L> that may just be used for iar
[20:03:15] <jadew> yeah, I didn't need to change that
[20:03:28] <jadew> give me 2 minutes and I'll look into the errors
[20:03:58] <Tom_L> they kinda screwed it up when they added gcc support
[20:04:04] <Tom_L> it was originally for iar
[20:04:10] <jadew> yeah
[20:05:30] <Tom_L> avr-libc >= 1.2.5
[20:05:38] <Tom_L> i dunno what i have
[20:06:28] <jadew> well it compiled for me, for mega8
[20:06:34] <jadew> I don't think it matters much
[20:08:00] <jadew> did you get the EEMWE error when you tried to compile for m328 too?
[20:08:08] <Tom_L> yes
[20:09:01] <jadew> ok, you need to replace EEMWE with EEMPE
[20:09:30] <Tom_L> where?
[20:09:40] <jadew> and EEWE with EEPE
[20:09:48] <jadew> well, you ca actually just define them in defines.h
[20:09:59] <jadew> #define EEMWE EEMPE
[20:10:06] <jadew> #define EEWE EEPE
[20:10:52] <Tom_L> return type of main is not int
[20:11:08] <Tom_L> warning temp_int may be used uninitialized in this funciton
[20:11:09] <jadew> as a warning or an error?
[20:11:48] <jadew> that warning is a compiler failure
[20:11:48] <Tom_L> both are warnings
[20:11:51] <jadew> the second one
[20:12:20] <jadew> looks like it compiled
[20:12:22] <Tom_L> it created a bootloader.hex file though
[20:12:31] <jadew> yeah
[20:12:44] <Tom_L> i'm gonna add those defines to the template
[20:13:06] <jadew> Tom_L, well they're only needed for those two chips probably
[20:13:23] <jadew> the other ones will work with EEWE and EEMWE
[20:13:31] <Tom_L> why just those 2?
[20:13:38] <Tom_L> what about one like 2560
[20:13:41] <jadew> it's weird that this one compiled for 512 fine, while for atmega8 it didn't want to
[20:13:51] <Tom_L> just a sec
[20:14:52] <Tom_L> it should have
[20:15:02] <Tom_L> it supports it
[20:15:18] <jadew> yeah, but it keept failing at the linking part
[20:15:23] <jadew> it was complaining about the addresses
[20:17:21] <jadew> I think I'm gonna write a bootloader of my own
[20:17:51] <jadew> on the other hand, this one works with avrdude...
[20:25:23] <Tom_L> as what device?
[20:25:44] <jadew> what do you mean?
[20:25:52] <jadew> ah, as avr109
[20:25:57] <Tom_L> ahh ok
[20:30:27] <Tom_L> did you use 1C00 for the mega8?
[20:31:40] <jadew> nope, had to go with 1800 (1024 words)
[20:33:19] <Tom_L> make.exe: *** [bootloader.elf] Error 1
[20:33:26] <Tom_L> and 1 warning on the m8
[20:34:34] <jadew> what's the error?
[20:36:22] <Tom_L> i fixed it
[20:36:24] <Tom_L> no errors
[20:36:27] <Tom_L> it compiled
[20:36:33] <jadew> for 512?
[20:36:53] <Tom_L> no
[20:37:26] <Tom_L> address 0x20f8 of bootloader.elf section .text is not within region text
[20:37:38] <jadew> :)
[20:37:47] <jadew> let me know when you fix that :P
[20:37:59] <Tom_L> why is it erroring?
[20:38:05] <jadew> don't know
[20:39:13] <Tom_L> i'm gonna try something
[20:39:15] <Tom_L> gimme a bit
[20:41:12] <jadew> hey any ideas on programmer sallaries in different countries? (from trusted sources, not the internet)
[20:41:54] <jadew> like if someone told you
[20:49:16] <Tom_L> dunno
[20:50:06] <theBear> these days most 'average' programming jobs seem pretty poor/average pay here
[20:50:26] <jadew> what's average?
[20:52:22] <Tom_L> jadew, same error in studio 6
[20:52:28] <Tom_L> just wanted to check
[20:52:38] <jadew> Tom_L, interresting
[20:52:57] <jadew> theBear, what's average in there?
[20:53:42] <theBear> bit less than a half-decent carpenter or not-bad bricklayer
[20:53:57] <jadew> yeah, but what's the number
[20:54:04] <Tom_L> changed to 1024 and it was fine
[20:54:04] <theBear> then again, you don't wanna know what i've been paid for electronics repairs at a few jobs over the years
[20:54:06] <jadew> I'm trying to figure out if I'm underpaid or not
[20:54:19] <jadew> Tom_L, told you
[20:54:22] <Tom_L> $35/hr?
[20:54:34] <jadew> yeah, I'm paid less
[20:54:36] <theBear> been a little while since i talked to anyone, but i'd say late $20's for everyday/fulltime kinda stuff
[20:54:36] <Tom_L> $50/hr?
[20:54:53] <theBear> Tom_L, wtf ? you livin in the .com boom or something ? times are tough
[20:54:55] <jadew> theBear, I see
[20:55:01] <Tom_L> :)
[20:55:22] <theBear> on reflection, probly about the same as you get in a 'good' callcenter or lowlevel scripted tech support job :)
[20:55:28] <Tom_L> i was getting $35 when i was freelance cadcam
[20:55:56] <Tom_L> a decade ago
[20:56:19] <Tom_L> be glad to get paid nowdays
[20:56:20] <jadew> theBear, then I guess I'm ok
[20:56:52] <jadew> eh, it's not that bad
[20:57:43] <theBear> mmm, these days it seems to break 30 (before tax) you gotta either be a building-related-something, contractor that gets good jobs but not a lot of them, or high up in corporate land... was talking with a friend recently, avg national wage is supposed to be around 80grand, but we couldn't think of anyone we knew who was closer than around 60
[20:57:52] <jadew> as a freelancer you tend to get better pay / hour, but you have to be really lucky to keep that going for a longer period of time
[20:58:07] <Tom_L> and alot of hours are lost
[20:58:25] <jadew> Tom_L yeah
[20:58:36] <Tom_L> oh god i didn't know you could do that.....
[20:58:40] <Tom_L> i got a new list for you
[20:58:40] <theBear> jadew, 10 years back there was a lot of that kinda contact stuff around, but seems to have slowed right down on all sides last few years
[20:58:41] <jadew> theBear, I guess things have really changed in the past few years
[20:59:15] <jadew> Tom_L, what list?
[20:59:20] <Tom_L> of wants
[20:59:35] <Tom_L> from the client
[20:59:42] <jadew> ah
[20:59:42] <theBear> guess so, i been paying more attention to medical pains and taking ANY money for ANYTHING so i can eat and drink and smoke last couple years
[21:00:23] <jadew> we should do what dewez did, I'm sure it still works
[21:00:24] <jadew> :)
[21:00:41] <theBear> which is why i wanna find my damned chauffeur driver, back is screwed thismorning, at 7:30 he said he'd come over and take me to the shops when other guy left for work not long after.... now it's almost 11
[21:01:03] <jadew> what's wrong with your back?
[21:02:32] <theBear> exploded couple years ago, worked last 4 or 5 months, but screwed up since christmas, seems it's wornout/important bits degeneratively shrinking and crushing all kinds of pain-makers and leg-controllers, strict doc instructions no work and mainly just take these spacecadet pills and lie down for next 3 months !
[21:02:59] <jadew> you told me about it before, but I tought you got over it
[21:03:04] <theBear> and that's not a good ! ... i worked 8th and 9th jan this year, literally JUST caught up with bills and debts from last years crippledom on the 6th :(
[21:03:08] <theBear> yeah, me too
[21:03:26] <Tom_L> jadew, did you look in the iar directory? it's got the original xls file
[21:03:45] <jadew> theBear, shitty...
[21:03:57] <jadew> Tom_L, no
[21:04:24] <theBear> totally... still too early to really judge, but i'd say i'm looking at lifelong desk/lighter than 10kg lifting work and/or medium-serious open-back-surgery
[21:04:28] <Tom_L> and another in a 256 subdirectory
[21:04:57] <jadew> theBear, you haven't had surgery yet?
[21:05:06] <jadew> is it disk hernia?
[21:05:49] <jadew> cuz if that's the case, it's most likely fixable, but yeah, you shouldn't be lifting stuff anymore
[21:06:31] <Tom_L> how can i expand that yellow boundary in the part definitions file?
[21:06:48] <jadew> Tom_L, I don't know excel :)
[21:07:01] <jadew> but I can't see the 328 in there either
[21:07:05] <Tom_L> i'll cheat
[21:07:13] <Tom_L> i added it
[21:07:53] <theBear> jadew, last year disk in the pre-birth-defect area of my back burst/herniad pretty badly, often stopped my left leg being much use at all and even with stupid strong muscle relaxants that destroyed my stomach lining completely my bum muscle was cramped solid for 9months, that's technically intact now, but still crushed/deformed, nearby ones are worn out and shrinking too, so that puts pressure on all those kinda nerves in the gaps, and the lifelong gentle
[21:07:53] <theBear> bone-grinding cos of this kinda stuff has progressed quite a bit, but that's more a symptom than a problem
[21:08:35] <theBear> i'd probably be looking at keyhole discectomy or a name i forget where they go a little deeper and do something 'between' the vertebra
[21:09:34] <jadew> did you do any extreme sports or things like that?
[21:09:42] <Tom_L> well that didn't work
[21:09:48] <theBear> suppose if it 'changes my life' i'd consider serious surgery, but i really don't like anything about the idea of having my whole back and all the muscles severed, all kinds of bone crunching and scalpeling right by the stuff that makes my lower half body work/feel, and then lying in hospital maybe 6months while the sewn together muscles recover
[21:11:13] <jadew> theBear, well, you at least have to keep it in check so, it would probably be an easier job if done sooner
[21:11:28] <theBear> i used to mtb race in teens, union early-mid teens, was still visiting the skatepark 3 or 4 years back, bike is still only 'real' form of transport, erm... that's probly it for sports.... cos it was born deformed it has had mild aching classic pain since i was a little kid and didn't even think to describe it to anyone, but carcrash and recent years have really screwed it
[21:11:34] <theBear> oy
[21:11:48] <theBear> something gotta be soon, i can't live like this, pain or stupid-pills wise
[21:11:58] <theBear> not to mention pensioning and hungry and broke all the time
[21:12:49] <theBear> doc does first checkup for this round next week, depending on how much idea he can get at that stage i'll at least broach the subject of surgery, we've discussed the generalities and suitableness of various things in the past more than once
[21:12:56] <jadew> you should probably start poluting the air and give up on the bike
[21:13:03] <theBear> he's a gp specialising in neuropathic pain and sports doctoring
[21:13:41] <theBear> that's easy to say when you can't afford food :( had a car for a couple months last year, but increasingly crazy grandma still held the papers and demanded it live back in her shed (she handed in license a few years ago)
[21:14:13] <theBear> have been looking at cheap options like scooter or motorbike casually, but still way more money than i got, and not as 'good' as a car bump wise
[21:14:24] <theBear> i'm even supposed to avoid cars and buses and things when it's like this
[21:15:26] <theBear> at least pushbike i can lift myself over the bumps, also interestingly there's a 'bike test' that is commonly used to detect one of my issues as distinct from a circulation issue, you ride an exercise bike at docs maybe 10 mins, then get off and if back feels good, you're like me, if legs are numb, it's a circulation issue, so maybe it aint THAT bad
[21:16:09] <theBear> suppose it's a combination of angle that forces back of spine open and gentle wiggling/mobilisation of the area that (at least on me) commonly gets 'locked
[21:17:06] <theBear> vertebra.. few years back when i was still fit for loading trucks and things i'd go to the docs and he'd just do some very gentle wobbling of my legs in certain angles, then tip them over and just gravity would often make huge pops, but either way it got alll the sections moving again
[21:17:42] <theBear> i'm also naturally hyperflexible in all my joints/areas, so even with several sections of back locked/not bending i can bend as far as most people
[21:18:03] <jadew> right, wouldn't a kinotherapist (that's how it's spelled) be able to help you?
[21:18:19] <theBear> i dunno, i know a LOT of something-therapists these days, but not that one
[21:19:00] <jadew> they are those guys that massage your spine to realign the vertebras
[21:19:20] <jadew> my dad went trough a lof ot that when he was recovering from disk hernia
[21:20:17] <jadew> by the way the (that's how it's spelled) thing was a question not a statement
[21:20:26] <theBear> massage eh ? like a slightly medical trained remedial massage kinda person ? dunno, at least for the moment, when everything is spasming almost constantly cos all the nerves are being crushed AND higher muscles trying to hold the back to avoid the pain, i'm on a strict no-manipulation rule from doc too
[21:21:03] <jadew> I see
[21:21:10] <jadew> yeah, they have medical training
[21:21:19] <theBear> yeah, i just didn't know what they were :) also haven't had a proper sleep for a couple days, stupid pills make my schedule crazy/rolling (on a good day they knock me out over 12-15 hours easy) and pain makes sleep tricky
[21:22:32] <theBear> learnt a lot about the different approaches/philosophies too, all these people wanna make your spine straight and muscles in right places/relaxed etc etc, but chiro believe that if you put the bones in the right place, the rest follows, physio/massage and one i can't remember right now believe you put the muscles right and the bones will follow, etc etc :)
[21:23:11] <jadew> heh, well the muscle guys are right :P
[21:23:38] <theBear> i've started to quite like multi-discipline people too, coincidentally they often seem to be suffers of some kind themselves that were looking for 'a better solution', but they aren't strictly one-thing and therefore can think/appreciate things like my last sentence
[21:24:45] <theBear> yeah, i think i agree, i certainly aint into chiro, except 'sensible' chiro, like where they try to NEVER crack or force you around, but might use a little spring-loaded thing like an auto-center-punch to just tap a couple appropriate spots and then let the body sort itself out
[21:25:27] <theBear> but those people are usually multi/many discipline trained too, and most of them suggest (quite rightly i think) that straight chiros TRY for loud cracks, cos it's kinda all they do, and well, loud cracks can't be a good sign
[21:26:03] <theBear> over time this becomes both a pleasure/reward response, and a meter of them definately doing something, all subconsciously of course
[21:26:10] <jadew> I wouldn't do it, but if you find a true specialist, someone who's not insane, it's wroth considering
[21:26:18] <theBear> for them that is, tho i suppose dedicated chiro patients too
[21:27:08] <theBear> last feb (can't work on current issue) one of these non-crazy dudes literally fixed me inside an hour, i only carried the stick that day out of sceptisicm, put it in the cupboard next day
[21:27:21] <jadew> early this winter I went with my friends to a spa (I went for the pool) and they all went to one of this guys (I had a session too, but I didn't take it)
[21:27:28] <jadew> and they all said he cracked their backs
[21:27:41] <jadew> for me that sounds scary
[21:28:14] <theBear> cracks ARE a sign of certain things happening, like spasm-locked disc/vertebra finally moving, but even if you aren't 'injured', it's a very violent way to achieve the goal
[21:28:33] <jadew> theBear, yeah!
[21:28:59] <jadew> you could actually chip some calcium deposit and then have that thing pressing on a nerve
[21:29:09] <theBear> for mild days/normal person hard work day bad back kinda things, i can achieve the same results in the lower back lying down and just GENTLY wiggling my bent knees side to side, hips only moving in gentle sympathy, maybe 6" total wiggle-stroke
[21:29:24] <theBear> jadew, or slip something sideways and crush a nerve, etc etc etc
[21:29:40] <theBear> those consent/no rights forms are downright scary at chiro places
[21:29:54] <jadew> lol yeah
[21:30:37] <theBear> now i gotta workout whats what and get me some bacon and eggs, maybe some cordial, definately smokes.... i got some frozen stuff mum gave me for foods, but last couple days i've just been desperate for some flavour, cordial instead of coffee or water, and bacon, ooh bacon
[21:31:05] <theBear> regardless of income, i've also noticed the last 5 years or so, meat has become a 'treat' more than an everyday thing, it really aint cheap anymore
[21:31:09] <jadew> mmm, can't wait for my g/f to wake up
[21:31:19] <jadew> I'm gonna ask her to make me some eggs with bacon
[21:31:21] <theBear> heh lazy :)
[21:31:26] <theBear> i knew that 2nd line was coming :)
[21:31:32] <jadew> hehe
[21:31:47] <theBear> even when it hurts to standup like this, i'm very happy to cook some bacons and eggs
[21:31:52] <theBear> anyway, cya bit later
[21:32:00] <jadew> see ya
[21:32:02] <jadew> enjoy
[21:32:06] <theBear> or in two minutes when i forget what i was sposed to be doing
[21:32:29] <jadew> :)
