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[03:28:54] <OndraSter__> Tom_itx, yeah, $207.77
[03:28:58] <OndraSter__> err
[03:28:59] <OndraSter__> 206.77
[03:29:01] <OndraSter__> :)
[03:31:28] <OndraSter__> MrTrick, the package arrived to tennessee few hours ago
[03:31:33] <OndraSter__> it will go to plane there probably
[04:38:19] <OndraSter> yay @ another 100 eur spent @ mouser
[04:38:28] <OndraSter> but I will have BAZILION OF PARTS! mehehehhehehhehehhehhehe
[04:38:31] <OndraSter> </evil laugh>
[08:32:55] <crazy_imp> is it possible to "half" the flash of an atmega (like two banks) and have it boot from one of them? (so you can flash the other half while it's running (not inside the bootloader, the bootloader would only have to select the active bank))
[08:33:56] <crazy_imp> my first thought about this was, what'll happen to the interrupt table - guess it's not possible to change it at runtime?
[08:35:21] <specing> crazy_imp: just keep all the communication/boot bits in the boot partition and you'll be fine
[08:36:20] <OndraSter> yep
[08:36:47] <crazy_imp> but it has to perform it's normal tasks while updating
[08:37:08] <crazy_imp> so dropping into the bootloader is not really an option
[08:37:12] <OndraSter> huh
[08:38:17] <OndraSter> what are those tasks that it cannot wait for 1 second for new firmware to flash?
[08:38:45] <crazy_imp> if the whole device does (there's more then the atmega), it's no problem to switch to the new code, but at runtime, it's not an great idea
[08:40:12] <crazy_imp> it checks other components and has to act properly on stuff over serial / twi
[08:41:04] <crazy_imp> so the update will be interleaved with the normal data stream
[08:50:57] <sirdancealot> OndraSter, mmm...pubs make me nauseous, would have to grab that beer for a walk or something:)
[08:51:50] <sirdancealot> closed spaces, strangers, stuff in stomach -> bad:)
[08:54:20] <OndraSter> oh
[08:54:25] <OndraSter> did I hit Prague though?
[08:54:31] <sirdancealot> yeah
[08:54:35] <OndraSter> okay :)
[08:54:39] <OndraSter> maybe soon
[08:54:51] <OndraSter> "school" this week
[08:54:51] <specing> So this just happened on #bash:
http://sprunge.us/VdQf
[08:54:53] <OndraSter> and next week
[08:55:10] <sirdancealot> great, yep this week lots of school and some work too
[08:55:40] <OndraSter> I prefer the word "procrastination :D
[08:55:45] <sirdancealot> right
[08:56:09] <specing> We have stupid mandatory java excercises at 7am :(
[08:56:15] <OndraSter> loljava
[08:56:22] <specing> I wish they'd just burn in hell
[09:36:00] <megal0maniac> megal0maniac_afk: Y U NO DDNS?
[09:37:09] <megal0maniac> Time to blink some LEDs
[11:50:13] <OndraSter> MrTrick, it is in France already!
[11:50:20] <OndraSter> in Paris
[11:50:25] <OndraSter> it is going through customs there
[11:55:46] <megal0maniac> Another xboard?
[11:57:53] <OndraSter> digikey
[11:57:53] <OndraSter> parts
[11:57:54] <OndraSter> yes
[11:57:54] <OndraSter> :)
[11:58:44] <megal0maniac> Ooh, did MrTrick go halvies on parts?
[11:58:51] <OndraSter> heh
[11:58:55] <OndraSter> 1/10th or so :D
[11:59:00] <OndraSter> $15 him, $190 me
[11:59:13] <megal0maniac> Yay! $200! :P
[11:59:35] <OndraSter> yep
[11:59:45] <OndraSter> I got in total about 5k resistors
[11:59:47] <OndraSter> 2k5 caps
[11:59:51] <OndraSter> 25x xmega128a4u
[11:59:55] <OndraSter> 10x enc424j600
[12:01:15] <RikusW> for which xboard are those ?
[12:01:22] <OndraSter> Mini-Duino
[12:01:25] <OndraSter> ethernet board is extra
[12:01:51] <megal0maniac> Ooh. so you went for 25x :)
[12:01:55] <megal0maniac> Good boy
[12:01:55] <OndraSter> aye
[12:01:58] <OndraSter> $69 for those :D
[12:02:10] <OndraSter> digikey asked me that it is suspiciously too much for personal use :D
[12:02:20] <OndraSter> so I lied <evil face>
[12:02:22] <RikusW> why ?
[12:02:28] <OndraSter> because they have crypto
[12:02:33] <OndraSter> and remember the stupid US laws?
[12:02:38] <OndraSter> about exporting military stuff?
[12:02:41] <OndraSter> crypto is part of military "stuff"
[12:02:47] <RikusW> and whats the problem if you sell them as devkits ?
[12:02:48] <OndraSter> xmega does 64bit DES and 128bit AES
[12:02:56] <OndraSter> that I can not specify target coutnry :)
[12:02:59] <OndraSter> during order of the chips
[12:03:26] <RikusW> so you're doing illegal exports now ? :-P
[12:03:31] * RikusW like that :)
[12:03:32] <OndraSter> aye
[12:03:43] <OndraSter> fuck (not just US) stupid laws
[12:04:20] <Amadiro> OndraSter, mouser had me sign a bunch of forms when I bought some AES-enabled low-power ARM devices from them.
[12:04:25] <Amadiro> (cortex-M3 I think)
[12:04:26] <OndraSter> aye
[12:04:31] <OndraSter> so did mouser for xmega
[12:04:31] <RikusW> the irony is I have the Atmel appnote explaining how to implement AES and DES in firmware
[12:04:37] <OndraSter> :)
[12:04:37] <Amadiro> weirdly they didn't for the xmegas
[12:04:41] <Amadiro> (which I bought before the ARMs)
[12:04:52] <OndraSter> the laws changed like few months ago
[12:04:58] <OndraSter> <1 year ago I think
[12:05:00] <Amadiro> that might be it
[12:05:07] <OndraSter> where are you from?
[12:05:09] <OndraSter> EU?
[12:05:10] <Amadiro> norway
[12:05:12] <Amadiro> nope
[12:05:13] <OndraSter> oh
[12:05:16] <OndraSter> hmm no idea
[12:05:19] <OndraSter> how many did you get?
[12:05:24] <Amadiro> 4 or so
[12:05:28] <RikusW> Amadiro: RS had me sign a bunch of forms for xmega32a4 but I never got it, only got credit for it :S
[12:05:31] <OndraSter> I got 3 xmegas from mouser
[12:05:41] <Amadiro> RikusW, why's that?
[12:05:42] <OndraSter> and now 25 from mouser :)
[12:05:53] <OndraSter> I know I won't be producing cocos and Ultras anytime soon :D
[12:05:58] <OndraSter> I need to find european source for xmegas
[12:06:07] <OndraSter> farnell does not have the ones I want, nor tme
[12:06:07] <Amadiro> RikusW, well, actually, nevermind, RS still owes me money too.
[12:06:17] <Amadiro> they seem to be shit in general
[12:06:18] <RikusW> Amadiro: not sure, they probablyt didn't get import approval
[12:06:59] <RikusW> Amadiro: why not order it directly from Atmel ? ;)
[12:07:08] <OndraSter> I thought that atmel does not do orders
[12:07:11] <OndraSter> for ridiculous amounts
[12:07:11] <RikusW> Atmel is a norwegian company after all
[12:07:13] <OndraSter> aka <100
[12:07:20] <OndraSter> maybe even <1000 is not possible from atmel directly
[12:07:36] <Amadiro> RikusW, I get samples from atmel
[12:07:44] <Amadiro> but yeah, I don't think I could order from them
[12:08:03] <specing> Where is dean?
[12:08:11] <OndraSter> not here
[12:08:12] <megal0maniac> Norway
[12:08:12] <OndraSter> in Norway
[12:08:14] <Amadiro> also, atmel samples just go through the same warehouse in malaysia that TI, LT, maxim & co use
[12:08:15] <megal0maniac> :)
[12:08:26] <OndraSter> aye
[12:08:33] <OndraSter> the package from Atmel was the SAME packaging as from TI :D
[12:08:38] <Amadiro> yeah
[12:08:46] <Amadiro> Microchip seems to use a different one, though
[12:09:05] <Amadiro> they sent me like a little ornamental case with two pic24 chips inside
[12:09:13] <Amadiro> like they were earrings or something
[12:09:16] <OndraSter> lol
[12:09:51] <Amadiro> I didn't end up using them, though, by the time microchips samples arrived I had already gotten the samples from atmel & ti and basically finished the project...
[12:09:58] <Amadiro> took like 3 months or so
[12:10:03] <OndraSter> lol
[12:10:09] <Amadiro> atmel & co were next-day or two days after
[12:10:09] <OndraSter> Microchip does even direct sell of some parts
[12:10:15] <OndraSter> aye
[12:10:17] <OndraSter> they use fedex
[12:10:23] <OndraSter> Atmel took 5 days or so for me
[12:10:31] <OndraSter> I didn't even remember getting email "your samples were sent"
[12:23:47] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: Is the Skoda Fabia a popular car there?
[12:24:12] <OndraSter> I'd say that every second person has it :
[12:24:12] <OndraSter> :D
[12:24:14] <OndraSter> jk
[12:24:19] <OndraSter> I did driving school in Skoda Fabia
[12:24:22] <OndraSter> the 2000 model :D
[12:25:08] <specing> popular or just cheapest?
[12:25:27] <megal0maniac> I have a Citi Golf (based on the VW Golf 1, specific to ZA). Every second person has one just about, and they took the dashboard design from the Fabia.
[12:25:41] <megal0maniac> So I suspected it might have been the same there, looks like I was right :)
[12:29:37] <megal0maniac> OndraSter: That's the inside of a Citi Golf. Look familiar? :P
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman2/uploads/1/002_014.jpg
[12:29:51] <OndraSter> haha
[12:29:58] <OndraSter> on a scale from 1 to 10
[12:30:01] <OndraSter> where 10 is the most simila
[12:30:02] <OndraSter> r
[12:30:03] <OndraSter> I'd say 9 :D
[12:30:10] <OndraSter> he doesn't have LPG switch :D
[12:32:46] <megal0maniac> I can do without it :P
[12:32:54] <megal0maniac> Mine doesn't even have injectors
[12:33:47] <OndraSter> :D
[12:34:56] <OndraSter> http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/262041_10151147591586634_981934115_n.jpg
[12:34:58] <OndraSter> EPIC FAIL
[12:36:36] <megal0maniac> Why?
[12:36:44] <OndraSter> well
[12:36:47] <OndraSter> why not put the trees INTO THE GROUND directly?
[12:36:57] <OndraSter> without using those awful box?!
[12:37:04] <OndraSter> boxes
[12:49:24] <megal0maniac> People do strange stuff for aesthetics :)
[12:49:47] <megal0maniac> I'm off, leaving megal0maniac_afk behind :/
[12:49:50] <megal0maniac> 'Night all
[12:51:06] <megal0maniac> Dammit. I set up dyndns incorrectly, and I'm cloaked so I can't even check the IP of megal0maniac_afk at home :P
[12:51:08] <megal0maniac> Oh well
[12:54:19] <crazy_imp> OndraSter: because now you can't drive between the trees
[13:04:23] <mitsakos> hello is anybody using little wire programmer on mac os?
[13:07:33] <Kshitij> has anybody tried building avr-gcc from 4.8 snapshots recently?
[13:07:57] <OndraSter> crazy_imp, nobody ever drove there
[13:08:14] <OndraSter> people are not *that* russian here
[13:11:50] <OndraSter> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNWGcYcBklE
[13:34:15] <iSaleK> What is easiest way to separate number into discrete digits, like 23 into 2 and 3
[13:34:57] <OndraSter> itoa
[13:34:59] <OndraSter> or %10
[13:35:42] <iSaleK> So something like number1 = wholenumber%10; number2 = wholenumber - (number1*10) right?
[13:36:09] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, what xmegas did you order?
[13:36:14] <OndraSter> 128a4u, Tom_itx
[13:36:18] <OndraSter> char number[5];
[13:36:24] <OndraSter> while(number1 != 0) {
[13:36:36] <OndraSter> I forgot int i = 0; before the while
[13:36:44] <OndraSter> number[i] = number1 % 10;
[13:36:49] <OndraSter> number1 /= 10;
[13:36:52] <OndraSter> }
[13:36:53] <specing> that implies 16-bit numbers
[13:36:55] <OndraSter> or something like that
[13:36:55] <OndraSter> yes
[13:37:02] <OndraSter> that's why only 5 bytes of the char
[13:37:05] <OndraSter> 65536
[13:37:12] <specing> iSaleK: just display them in hex, it'll be *very* fast
[13:37:31] <iSaleK> I need to display them on 7-seg displays so I need to separate them :)
[13:37:32] <OndraSter> number[i] = number1 % 10 + 'a';
[13:37:36] <OndraSter> oh
[13:37:39] <OndraSter> then the original
[13:38:04] <specing> make them hex
[13:38:19] <iSaleK> They are hex already
[13:38:31] <specing> Hahahahahvhhahahahha
[13:39:14] <iSaleK> What's so funny? :)
[13:39:24] <OndraSter> they are not in hex
[13:39:26] <OndraSter> they are in binary
[13:39:35] <OndraSter> the debugger represents them in hex so they are human readable
[13:40:04] <iSaleK> Well Hex is just short representation of binary values...
[13:40:15] <OndraSter> hex is representation of a nibble
[13:40:19] <OndraSter> a rep*
[13:41:07] <specing> iSaleK: So decimal is just short representation of binary values too?
[13:42:12] <iSaleK> specing: MCU only understands binary, that's clear. How will you use and/or group them it's up to you/compiler
[13:43:27] <iSaleK> But that's not what I was asking. I need to convert a value that is something like 23 or 34 into 2 and 3 or 3 and 4
[13:43:34] <iSaleK> What is the easiest way to do that?
[13:44:34] <iSaleK> Maybe while(x >=10) { x-=10; y++; } and then first digit is y and second x?
[13:45:01] <iSaleK> btw my values are temperatures above zero, most likely from 15-40 celsius
[13:45:25] <OndraSter> what is wrong on my solution other than that it misses i++?
[13:46:55] <iSaleK> OndraSter: It should work fine, I'm just asking for possible solutions :)
[14:02:18] <iSaleK> On 2313, one instruction cycle (for for loop) is how much crystal clocks? 4, 8...?
[14:03:05] <Tom_itx> look at the asm output and count them
[14:03:45] <eric_j> iSaleK, one cycle per clock. the AVR does not use a clock divider
[14:04:50] <iSaleK> Oh, great then :)
[14:04:58] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/pdf/atmel/AVR_instruction_set.pdf
[14:58:00] <MrTrick> OndraSter: nice and quick!
[15:09:17] <OndraSter> MrTrick, :)
[15:09:20] <OndraSter> fedex :D
[15:51:44] <OndraSter> MrTrick, it left 20 minutes ago Paris :)
[15:52:38] <Malinuss> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ7pUADoo58&feature=related lol
[15:55:07] <nickoe> nice and clean blow
[15:55:22] <OndraSter> hehe
[15:55:25] <OndraSter> I have got here dead mega16
[15:55:28] <OndraSter> no idea how it died
[15:55:32] <OndraSter> my friend gave it to me
[15:55:35] <OndraSter> does not respond to anything
[15:55:39] <OndraSter> it stopped uploading code, reading worked
[15:55:43] <OndraSter> then even reading didn't work
[15:56:19] <Tom_itx> time to bury it
[15:57:24] <Malinuss> ;_;
[15:57:27] <Malinuss> RIP
[15:57:36] <Malinuss> RIP mega16. we will remember you
[15:58:11] * Tom_itx runs over it with a dump truck
[15:59:11] <nickoe> be carefull not to puncture the tires Tom_itx
[15:59:22] <OndraSter> aye, this is DIP40 one
[15:59:30] <OndraSter> I do wonder
[15:59:36] <OndraSter> if I were to clear out the ceramic
[15:59:42] <OndraSter> and use some REALLY powerful microscope
[15:59:46] <OndraSter> could I reverse engineer it? :P
[15:59:49] <OndraSter> the AVR core
[16:01:24] <Malinuss> Also, I just looked at how the atmel studio simulators work. Damn it looks sweet. Wish it worked for my chip. Do you guys use it a lot?
[16:01:39] <OndraSter> if it is possible, yes
[16:02:01] <OndraSter> usually to check timing
[16:02:53] <OndraSter> but manually simulating IOs is not very handy :P
[16:03:00] <Malinuss> It would be a great learning tool I think. To learn about the peripherals mostly
[16:03:22] <OndraSter> to *learn* about the peripherals I try it out
[16:03:30] <OndraSter> I want to try out the 128MHz PWM soon :)
[16:03:37] <Malinuss> Especially for a beginner like me. I know I can look it all up in the datasheet but its just not the same
[16:03:52] <Malinuss> as in blinking colors with text ;P
[16:04:48] <jadew> OndraSter, what's this PDI interface?
[16:04:57] <OndraSter> it is programming and debugging interface
[16:04:59] <OndraSter> via 2 wires
[16:05:02] <jadew> do I need a new programmer for xmegas?
[16:05:10] <OndraSter> that depends on what one do you have now
[16:05:17] <jadew> usbtiny
[16:05:23] <OndraSter> does it support PDI?
[16:05:24] <jadew> so isp
[16:05:29] <OndraSter> then no
[16:05:31] <jadew> I don't think so
[16:05:33] <jadew> hmm
[16:05:33] <OndraSter> you will need a new one
[16:05:43] <OndraSter> OR get my board which will ship with USB bootloader :)
[16:05:45] <jadew> I need to look into building one
[16:05:59] <OndraSter> get one from Tom_itx or RikusW
[16:06:12] <OndraSter> Tom_itx has got programmer, RikusW has got universal board which can work as PDI programmer
[16:06:51] <jadew> I like to make my own stuff, I don't really have a higher goal so building the tools keeps me going hehe
[16:07:46] <jadew> I might implement the PDI interface in my does it all tool as well, will have to look into the protocol
[16:07:50] <jadew> debugging sounds nice
[16:08:03] <OndraSter> debugging is not documented
[16:08:09] <jadew> ah
[16:08:26] <OndraSter> only programming
[16:08:35] <jadew> oh well, not a biggie
[16:15:54] <nickoe> I have written this code
http://dpaste.com/833996/ to decode data from a SPI interfaced device. But I have problems when I send it, if the scaling number is big like 3330 thne I get data as shown on the right graph, while the scaling = 1 is what is shown on the left graph.
http://kom.aau.dk/~nickoe/random/scaling.png
[16:16:32] <Malinuss> any of you guys have a opinion about PIC?
[16:16:33] <nickoe> I have tested the same funciton on my laptop, and it seems to work fine, so do you thin that the itoa() has some limitations?
[16:17:25] <nickoe> Malinuss, never tried it, but I am not sure if there is gcc support for it
[16:17:26] <OndraSter> Malinuss, you are on #avr so guess our opinion :)
[16:17:32] <OndraSter> no gcc for PIC
[16:17:34] <OndraSter> they use their own compiler
[16:17:41] <nickoe> Malinuss, it is crap then
[16:17:44] <Malinuss> yeah I read that. that kinda sucks
[16:18:30] <jadew> they have nice features but the compilers all suck
[16:20:54] <OndraSter> new gcc is not bad
[16:20:57] <OndraSter> 4.8 that is
[16:22:42] <OndraSter> jadew, have you read something about ADCs and your oversampling?
[16:22:58] <OndraSter> because the way oversampling works is on noisy stuff
[16:23:17] <jadew> OndraSter, I've read a paper a while ago on that and I've used it in my first power supply
[16:23:23] <jadew> that's why I know it works
[16:23:24] <nickoe> OndraSter, how is gcc 4.8 better?
[16:23:29] <OndraSter> nickoe, better optimalizations
[16:23:43] <OndraSter> and it should be able to store strings in PROGMEM automatically
[16:23:44] <OndraSter> and load them
[16:23:45] <nickoe> any examples?
[16:23:51] <OndraSter> rather putting them into .data and loading them on boot
[16:24:04] <OndraSter> jadew, okay, you have got on 10bit ADC value of 515
[16:24:11] <nickoe> I am not exactly sure what .data is
[16:24:11] <OndraSter> how do you know by oversampling if it is 514.60 or 514.70?
[16:24:19] <OndraSter> nickoe, data that are copied to RAM and worked with
[16:24:35] <jadew> OndraSter, I got 12bits of resolution
[16:24:39] <specing> gcc version 4.8.0 20121109 (experimental) (GCC) :)
[16:24:40] <nickoe> ok
[16:24:50] <OndraSter> jadew, that does not answer my question
[16:25:13] <jadew> OndraSter, well, if you have enough bits in the end, you know that
[16:25:33] <OndraSter> 515 is still 515. Does not matter whether on 10 or 12bit ADC
[16:25:48] <jadew> well, it does
[16:25:58] <OndraSter> of course it does in the end, but not for my question
[16:26:13] <jadew> because you're not measuring floating point numbers
[16:26:35] <jadew> so what you could get could be 5146
[16:26:42] <jadew> and 5147
[16:27:00] <jadew> so by increasing the resolution you know
[16:27:17] <OndraSter_> damnit
[16:27:20] <OndraSter_> netsplit?
[16:27:24] <Tom_itx> yup
[16:27:26] <jadew> looks like it
[16:27:26] <OndraSter_> ok
[16:27:36] <OndraSter_> jadew, your oversampling works only to eliminate *noise*
[16:27:46] <jadew> OndraSter, no
[16:27:48] * Tom_itx blames jadew for standing on the cord
[16:27:51] <jadew> it improves precision
[16:28:03] <jadew> I see what you mean by your question now
[16:28:05] <OndraSter_> ok
[16:28:06] <jadew> let me explain
[16:28:10] <OndraSter_> now tell me how your oversamplign helps there
[16:28:18] <jadew> let's say you take 4 samples, right?
[16:28:22] <OndraSter_> yes
[16:28:25] <OndraSter_> all measure 515
[16:28:32] <jadew> they're all over the place, because of the noise, correct?
[16:28:38] <OndraSter_> <OndraSter_> jadew, your oversampling works only to eliminate *noise*
[16:28:46] <OndraSter_> it averages the noise
[16:28:50] <jadew> no
[16:28:53] <jadew> here me out
[16:28:54] <jadew> now
[16:29:05] <jadew> if you would divide the sum by 4, you would do averaging
[16:29:07] <Tom_itx> 515, 512, 528, 514
[16:29:10] <jadew> but if you would divide by 2
[16:29:13] <Tom_itx> average them
[16:29:16] <jadew> you would get an extra bit
[16:29:20] <jadew> all with the help of the noise
[16:29:27] <jadew> which frames your true value
[16:29:52] <jadew> allowing you to figure out the extra bits
[16:30:15] <OndraSter_> so you NEED the noise to be AT LEAST LSB
[16:30:31] * Tom_itx starts banging a pan
[16:30:48] <jadew> heh Tom_itx
[16:31:00] <jadew> OndraSter_, yep, you need the noise to figure out the true value
[16:31:04] <jadew> and you can go as deep as you want
[16:31:18] <Tom_itx> so what do you do with the number divided by 2?
[16:31:23] <jadew> but as you gain more bits you have to take a lot more samples
[16:31:25] <Tom_itx> read the top bits?
[16:31:35] <OndraSter_> if you have got 10bit ADC with 1.024V vref, it is 1mV per 1 count, correct?
[16:31:41] <OndraSter_> if your noise is 10uV
[16:31:50] <OndraSter_> and you are measuring 0.80001V
[16:31:54] <OndraSter_> how does there oversampling work?
[16:32:00] <jadew> Tom_itx, nope, that's the whole result, with 1 additional bit
[16:32:36] <jadew> OndraSter_, let me calculate how many bits you need there
[16:32:44] <OndraSter_> but HOW do you measure them?
[16:32:51] <OndraSter_> all the results will be returning 800
[16:32:58] <jadew> ondraster
[16:33:00] <jadew> that's the thing
[16:33:04] <jadew> they won't return 800
[16:33:12] <jadew> because of the noise, they will return 801
[16:33:15] <jadew> and 800
[16:33:16] <OndraSter_> 10uV < 1bit
[16:33:31] <jadew> but based on how many times it returns 800 and 801
[16:33:35] <jadew> you can figure out the next digit
[16:33:38] <OndraSter_> <OndraSter_> if your noise is 10uV
[16:33:44] <OndraSter_> it will never return 801
[16:33:46] <OndraSter_> nor 799
[16:33:47] <jadew> ah
[16:33:54] <jadew> yeah you need noise
[16:34:00] <jadew> if you have that kind of low noise
[16:34:06] <jadew> you have to introduce it, as I said last night
[16:34:28] <OndraSter_> isn't it better to use 24bit sigma-delta ADC? or even 16bit *already finished*?
[16:34:41] <jadew> well, it's deffinitely better
[16:34:46] <jadew> but it's also more expensive
[16:34:52] <jadew> a lot more expensive
[16:35:07] <OndraSter_> analog frontend with stable reference etc will be one ending 0 more expensive
[16:35:42] <jadew> the way I figured is if you have a high reference
[16:36:02] <jadew> and quite accurate, you'll get better precision
[16:36:20] <jadew> so I guess you can go cheap if you can get a higher voltage reference
[16:36:25] <OndraSter_> http://www.ti.com/product/ads1281
[16:36:27] <OndraSter_> get this
[16:36:29] <OndraSter_> they do samples! :D
[16:36:49] <jadew> yeah, I saw it yesterday
[16:36:53] <jadew> too expensive :(
[16:36:58] <OndraSter_> <OndraSter_> they do samples! :D
[16:37:18] <jadew> and for some reason they wouldn't sample stuff to me
[16:37:22] <OndraSter_> oh
[16:37:44] <jadew> having a 24bit fast adc would be great tho
[16:38:17] <jadew> because you only need to do averaging then and you're not as constricted by the specs as when you also have to improve the resolution
[16:38:34] <jadew> because, believe it or not 200ksps is not enough in most cases
[16:38:48] <jadew> but with a 24bit one you could do just fine with 1ksps
[16:39:15] <jadew> you'd only need to take a few samples to make sure you update the LCD 3 times+/second or something
[16:41:58] <jadew> I'm not gonna build a multimeter anymore tho
[16:42:26] <jadew> the argument of calibration still stands, I don't have the tools for it so it would be useless
[16:42:45] <jadew> maybe just to see mV variation but who needs that?
[16:53:26] <Tom_itx> but you got a fancy meter for it
[16:53:28] <Tom_itx> didn't you?
[16:55:07] <jadew> Tom_itx, I gave up on it...
[16:55:20] <jadew> the entire order was way too expensive for one month
[16:55:34] <jadew> it was close to $1000
[16:55:48] <jadew> so I took the meter out and some other stuff
[16:57:51] <jadew> OndraSter_: code from my power source, it's written for the atmega8
http://dumb.ro/files/adc.zip
[16:57:57] <jadew> so if you have one around you can give it a try
[16:58:11] <jadew> by default it will increase the resolution of the ADC by 2
[16:58:33] <X-warrior> So If i'm communicating 2 atmega (328 and 8) using I2C can I use internal pullup resistor?
[16:58:39] <jadew> and it will take 10 samples (improved samples) to do the averaging
[16:58:42] <X-warrior> Should I use it on both sides?
[16:59:33] <jadew> X-warrior, if you are using a low speed, it might work
[16:59:44] <OndraSter_> X-warrior, internal pullups are very weak... low speed *might* work
[16:59:48] <OndraSter_> depends on the total capacitance of the bus
[17:04:24] <X-warrior> Is 100k too fast right?
[17:05:06] <OndraSter_> it is very fast
[17:05:14] <OndraSter_> if your charging resistor is 50kOhm
[17:05:19] <OndraSter_> and you have got let's say 12pF
[17:05:24] <OndraSter_> calculate till it reaches Vih value
[17:07:50] <Tom_itx> !seen abcminiuser
[17:07:50] <tobbor> abcminiuser was last seen in #avr on Oct 27 09:18 2012
[17:07:57] <Tom_itx> that boy is doa
[17:09:43] <OndraSter_> DOA?
[17:09:44] <OndraSter_> more like KIA
[17:09:45] <OndraSter_> or MIA
[17:32:57] <tmpvar> lol@JoeLlama's quit link
[17:46:58] <Malinuss> shit I feel so stupid for actually buying a "SD-reader", when It took like 2min and ~0$ to make one by myself, simply using some tape and pin headers....
[17:47:25] <Malinuss> guess we all learn from out mistakes
[17:47:27] <Malinuss> *our
[17:51:52] <jadew> anyone else ending up on pages with hot chicks when searching for different electronics terms on google?
[17:52:13] <Tom_itx> no
[17:52:19] <Tom_itx> what are your search terms?
[17:52:30] <jadew> like package names
[17:52:32] <jadew> part names
[17:52:54] <jadew> I guess google just knows what I like, eh?
[17:53:10] <Timelord83> Hello all
[17:53:25] <jadew> hey
[17:54:00] <Timelord83> so who here is anygood with the tinyusbISP ?
[17:54:27] <Tom_itx> we are all experts
[17:54:42] <Timelord83> rofl nice
[17:56:12] <OndraSter_> not me
[17:56:14] <OndraSter_> I am sleeping
[17:56:28] <Timelord83> well i like doing things from the ground up and i am working on a PCB for one and i am wondering where i can find the info on the ATTINY2313-20 pinout for it
[17:56:43] <Tom_itx> the data sheet
[17:56:46] <OndraSter_> aye
[17:56:51] <Tom_itx> download it from atmel
[17:56:53] <Tom_itx> page 2
[17:56:57] <OndraSter_> there might be even recommended PCB routing
[17:57:01] <OndraSter_> appnote
[17:57:07] <Timelord83> oki
[17:57:11] <OndraSter_> although there is nothing special about tiny2313.. :)
[17:57:13] <OndraSter_> gn!
[17:57:14] <Timelord83> ahh
[17:57:14] <Tom_itx> where are you?
[17:57:21] <Timelord83> i am in the states
[17:57:23] <Tom_itx> i got some i might just send you one
[17:57:38] <Timelord83> i built my own Parallel programer
[17:57:53] <Timelord83> it works nicely i might have overcomplicated it a bit though
[17:57:55] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/usbtiny_programmer/testing_index.php
[17:58:03] <Tom_itx> i got some of those left over
[17:58:37] <Tom_itx> bit banged usb programmer like the usbasp thingy
[17:59:25] <Tom_itx> my parport programmer has a 74hc244?
[17:59:26] <Tom_itx> iirc
[17:59:59] <Timelord83> i know mine does
[18:00:22] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/ispdongle.pdf
[18:00:27] <Tom_itx> modeled after that
[18:00:49] <Timelord83> yes thats the extact PDF i used to build mine lol
[18:00:50] <Tom_itx> but i don't use either one anymore
[18:00:55] <Timelord83> i cheated though
[18:00:59] <Tom_itx> since i got my good ones working
[18:01:38] <Timelord83> i ran an extra trace set from the ground to to pin 4 incase i want to program attiny13's i can just add a jumper and complete the ground set
[18:01:42] <Timelord83> good ones?
[18:02:02] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[18:02:03] <Tom_itx> those
[18:02:41] <jadew> what's the switch for?
[18:02:50] <Tom_itx> target vs usb power
[18:03:01] <jadew> ah, nice touch
[18:03:03] <Tom_itx> if you want a target of 3.3v say
[18:03:05] <jadew> I'm doing it with jumpers
[18:03:12] <Tom_itx> it works down to 1.75v
[18:03:24] <Tom_itx> but after that it gets too hard to see the led blink
[18:03:48] <jadew> you know what would be a good addition?
[18:03:54] <jadew> a 3v3 source
[18:03:56] <Timelord83> nice
[18:04:07] <jadew> wish I thought about that when I made mine
[18:04:58] <jadew> ah wait.. I don't need that, I need a new programmer
[18:05:27] <Tom_itx> Timelord83, they're available if you're so inclined
[18:06:26] <jadew> I just noticed Tom_itx
[18:06:37] <jadew> you're not using the original firmware, isn't it?
[18:06:44] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/par_prog1.jpg
[18:06:56] <Tom_itx> there's one of my parport ones along side a rs232 thingy
[18:07:26] <Tom_itx> jadew, no
[18:07:29] <jadew> nice
[18:07:30] <Timelord83> http://www.timelord83.com/PARALLEL_AVR_ISP.png
[18:07:31] <Tom_itx> but it emulates a mkii
[18:07:36] <Tom_itx> in avrdude or studio
[18:07:57] <jadew> neat
[18:08:33] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/usbtiny3.jpg
[18:08:37] <Tom_itx> i got a few of those left
[18:08:43] <Tom_itx> that's the bitbanged one
[18:09:05] <jadew> it looks nice too
[18:09:26] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/prog/prog_batch.jpg
[18:09:31] <Tom_itx> after changing to a mini plug
[18:10:08] <jadew> it sure looks awesome
[18:10:30] <Tom_itx> those are ISP only though
[18:10:37] <Tom_itx> the new ones do ISP PDI and TPI
[18:10:48] <jadew> what's TPI?
[18:10:52] <Tom_itx> i just stuck them in a box
[18:10:55] <Timelord83> i accidently firmware bricked my 3d printers mobo so i had to buy an TinyusbISP to fix it
[18:11:01] <Tom_itx> for the tiny10 9 5 and 4
[18:11:10] <Tom_itx> the little 6pin chips
[18:11:13] <jadew> I see
[18:11:46] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI1.jpg
[18:11:48] <Tom_itx> there's one
[18:12:29] <Tom_itx> Timelord83, how does that work?
[18:12:32] <jadew> yeah, I had some on the last orther
[18:12:37] <Tom_itx> oh your reprap printer?
[18:12:39] <jadew> thought they are programmed over ISP tho
[18:12:53] <Tom_itx> not these
[18:12:59] <Tom_itx> these are TPI only
[18:13:13] <jadew> good to know
[18:13:28] <Tom_itx> only 4 io
[18:14:36] <Tom_itx> Timelord83, you already bought a tiny kit?
[18:15:22] <Tom_itx> the problem you will have is programming it
[18:15:29] <Tom_itx> and burning the fuses
[18:15:39] <Tom_itx> but you said you have a parport one right?
[18:16:03] <Tom_itx> so tell me this... if you have a parport one why not use it to unbrick your reprap instead?
[18:16:24] <Timelord83> i didn't
[18:16:32] <Timelord83> i litterly had to go FIND a pc with one
[18:16:41] <Timelord83> i have a dog
[18:16:47] <Timelord83> i used tha tinyusb once
[18:16:50] <Timelord83> and then SOMEONE ate it
[18:17:01] <Tom_itx> i guess i need to know what you have then
[18:17:06] <Tom_itx> a parport programmer?
[18:17:12] <Tom_itx> a usbtiny programmer?
[18:17:23] <Tom_itx> none of the above
[18:17:33] <Timelord83> i built a paraport to program attiny 2313 or tiny13's
[18:17:35] <Tom_itx> an electronic dog?
[18:17:43] <Timelord83> of which i planned on building a tinyusbisp
[18:18:00] <Tom_itx> so if you built a parport one, why not just use it to unbrick your printer?
[18:18:12] <Tom_itx> i said i'd send you one
[18:18:18] <Tom_itx> i've got a few in a box here
[18:18:25] <Tom_itx> just pay the postage
[18:18:36] <Tom_itx> nobody seems to want them now
[18:18:36] <Timelord83> i built the para after my dog ate the usb one after i fixed the reprap
[18:18:41] <Timelord83> really why not?
[18:18:43] <Timelord83> they are awesome
[18:18:47] <Timelord83> plug plug jumper
[18:18:52] <Timelord83> flash new firmware and go
[18:18:55] <Tom_itx> because the new ones do so much more
[18:20:15] <Timelord83> i gguess i'm a nub to the AT world so i am not sure extactly what that means
[18:20:36] <Tom_itx> there are tons of usbtiny programmers out there
[18:20:50] <Tom_itx> nobody wanted mine so i quit trying to sell em
[18:20:59] <Tom_itx> i did come out with a better one though
[18:21:13] <Timelord83> i saw that link with the ISP/x/x one
[18:21:15] <Timelord83> looked good
[18:21:21] <Timelord83> no idea what i'd use it for but it looked good
[18:21:29] <Tom_itx> so i have some of the usbtinys left in a box i'll never use
[18:21:36] <Tom_itx> programming avrs
[18:21:46] <Tom_itx> it should program nearly any 8 bit avr
[18:22:30] <Tom_itx> i was gonna send rue some for the kids in his class but he said they didn't deserve em
[18:23:24] <Tom_itx> so
[18:23:34] <Tom_itx> did you buy a usbtiny kit or are you making one from scratch?
[18:24:02] <Horologium> I know a hackerspace that would love a few!
[18:24:24] <Timelord83> working on one from scratch
[18:24:27] <Horologium> will be meeting with them this weekend and mention it.
[18:24:32] <Timelord83> and that Weld-On 4 Acrylic Adhesive
[18:24:39] <Timelord83> any reason for the 4 vs the 3?
[18:25:36] <Tom_itx> i forget what 3 is
[18:25:40] <Tom_itx> but 4 is liquid
[18:25:45] <Tom_itx> and 16 is paste
[18:26:11] <Tom_itx> the 4 wicks under the plastic when you hold them together
[18:26:32] <Timelord83> nice
[18:26:37] <Timelord83> i was going to build my own tank
[18:26:48] <Timelord83> but i haven't even looked into what i would need
[18:37:40] <Tom_itx> just some plastic and solvent
[18:38:07] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/newtank2.jpg
[18:38:27] <Tom_itx> i use a fishtank bubbler with some holes poked in the tubing
[18:38:33] <jadew> that etching tank looks awesome
[18:39:19] <jadew> how long does etching take?
[18:39:32] <Tom_itx> not very long with fresh etchant
[18:39:41] <jadew> and is it toxic? (fumes?)
[18:39:48] <Tom_itx> i warm it with hot water in a sink first
[18:39:55] <Tom_itx> you need ventilation
[18:40:02] <jadew> I see
[18:40:10] <Tom_itx> sodium persulphate or ammonium persulphate is what i use
[18:40:51] <jadew> I'm using ferric chloride and I want to give up on it, it's too messy
[18:41:44] <Timelord83> can sodium persulphate be heated?
[18:42:05] <Tom_itx> i do
[18:44:40] <Tom_itx> http://www.web-tronics.com/410-1kg.html
[18:44:43] <Tom_itx> http://www.web-tronics.com/4101-1kg.html
[18:45:22] <Tom_itx> sodium persulphate works better with etch pens
[18:48:44] <Timelord83> i am using Ferric i hate it
[18:48:47] <Timelord83> if its not warm
[18:48:48] <Timelord83> its usless
[18:49:05] <Tom_itx> it foams when you bubble it too
[18:49:50] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/etch5.jpg
[18:49:59] <Tom_itx> and the others are just so pretty when they absorb copper
[18:55:47] <Timelord83> lol
[18:56:02] <Tom_itx> what printer do you have/
[18:56:03] <Tom_itx> ?
[18:57:30] <Horologium> Tom_itx, what would you think about thermal transfer wax print onto copper clad for etching?
[18:58:13] <Tom_itx> it might work
[18:58:21] <Tom_itx> some have toyed with the idea of inks etc
[18:59:48] <jadew> I'm not warming my ferric chloride
[19:00:12] <jadew> what bothers me is that it stains everything it touches
[19:00:36] <Tom_itx> i used it for quite a while but quit for the same reason
[19:01:41] <Horologium> can get 203dpi out of this thing..
[19:03:17] <Horologium> just under 5 mil for 1 pixel wide trace so could do roughly 10mil traces and spacing I think.\
[19:04:08] <Horologium> got it torn apart at the moment trying to figure out how to widen the media path and maybe add a belt of some kind to it for moving a piece of pcb.
[19:12:59] <Timelord83> i am going to work on a pcb mill i think
[20:58:36] <Essobi> Booting FreeBSD 10 on my raspberry pi. :D
[21:45:25] <MrTrick> jadew: tried cupric chloride?
[21:45:37] <jadew> no
[21:46:19] <MrTrick> http://members.optusnet.com.au/eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html
[21:47:06] <jadew> ah, I've read about it before, it sounds interresting
[21:47:39] <unicos> works fast and very cheap to make
[21:49:06] <jadew> any drawbacks?
[21:50:59] <unicos> it loses etching ability as the hydrogen peroxide disassociates if you store it, but you can add more
[21:51:19] <Kraln> flux itself is a pretty good etchant
[21:51:50] <Essobi> interesting
[21:52:40] <jadew> I don't think anyone is wasting flux on that tho :)
[21:52:53] <MrTrick> Or you know, just get them made by a board house.
[21:53:33] <Kraln> lots of cheap proto services around
[21:53:49] <Kraln> and you don't have to wonder "hey, did I etch the board right?"
[21:54:24] <jadew> it sounds very tempting
[21:54:38] <jadew> but it doesn't seem practical
[21:54:52] <jadew> you have to wait a lot for the board
[21:55:02] <jadew> and you can't get only 1
[21:55:18] <jadew> you have to get 10+ or something like that
[21:55:31] <Kraln> from whom?
[21:55:44] <Kraln> laen's pcb order lets you get as few as three
[21:55:50] <Kraln> ~$3 per square inch if I remember
[21:55:55] <jadew> the only one I know of is iteadstudio
[21:56:06] <Kraln> oh man, there are so many proto services
[21:56:37] <Essobi> .4
[21:56:57] <jadew> $3 per square inch is a huge price, basically the board would cost more than the components on most projects
[21:59:07] <Kraln> what?
[21:59:26] <Kraln> typical project size for me is no bigger than 4x2
[21:59:43] <jadew> 4x2"?
[21:59:43] <Kraln> so $24 for three 4"x2" boards isn't bad
[22:00:00] <Kraln> and they're enig, 6/6, etc.
[22:00:00] <jadew> ah, so $1 per inch?
[22:00:22] <Kraln> I am derping up the math.
[22:00:23] <Kraln> http://oshpark.com/
[22:00:31] <Kraln> http://oshpark.com/pricing <- this is the maths
[22:02:14] * MrTrick recommends #hackvana ^_^
[22:03:45] <jadew> Kraln, yeah, I guess it's not bad compared to the other ones
[22:04:29] <jadew> but paying $40 for a 5x10cm board... it's a bit steep
[22:05:09] <Kraln> the boards are made in the US
[22:05:21] <Kraln> and the silk etc are nice and high quality
[22:05:24] <Kraln> so, ygwypf
[22:06:03] <jadew> I doubt the machines building the PCBs were made anywhere else but in china
[22:06:09] <Kraln> huh?
[22:06:21] <Kraln> a lot of pcb making equipment is from germany and sweden actually
[22:06:54] <Kraln> http://www.mydata.com/, etc
[22:07:22] <jadew> nice
[22:07:30] <jadew> still, it's not worth it
[22:07:46] <Kraln> 'it' and 'it' ?
[22:08:12] <Kraln> I've done productions runs where the boards and assembly were all done domestically in the US for the same or less than chinese production would have been
[22:08:12] <jadew> ?
[22:08:44] <Kraln> if you're in the EU, batchpcb is good for prototypes
[22:09:11] <jadew> I'm sure it's fine when doing it in high quantities, but for hobby use it seems like overkill and insanely expensive
[22:09:20] <Kraln> but my favorite (in europe) is pcbpool
[22:09:35] <jadew> gonna check them out, thanks
[22:09:38] <Kraln> http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppfr/info_pcbpoolprototype.html
[22:10:46] <MrTrick> http://hackvana.com/ <-- ^_^
[22:11:50] <jadew> Kraln, I would pay 25 eur for a single sided 5x10cm board, that's insane
[22:12:29] <Kraln> insane good or bad
[22:12:32] <jadew> wth are they making them from? blood and gold?
[22:12:36] <Kraln> MrTrick: that looks great for australia?
[22:12:37] <jadew> insane bad
[22:13:03] <MrTrick> Kraln: pcb pool seems pretty pricy, no? their 160x100mm doublesided costs 50EUR, and that's before silkscreen or mask?
[22:13:21] <Kraln> pcbpool gives you a free stencil, and also commonly overages.
[22:13:27] <Kraln> 'free', of course, being relative
[22:14:07] <jadew> I don't think they're aimed at hobbyist
[22:14:14] <Kraln> http://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/Platinenhersteller#Ausland
[22:14:16] * MrTrick spent AU for 5 of 80x100mm doublesided/doublemasked/silkscreened boards through hackvana
[22:14:22] <Kraln> if you understand german, this is a really good list of board houses
[22:14:47] <jadew> MrTrick, checking it out
[22:14:48] <Kraln> jadew: what about itead? 5cm x 5cm x 10 boards for 10 euro
[22:14:58] <Kraln> MrTrick: seriously, the whole world isn't in australia.
[22:15:13] <MrTrick> bah, AU$31. (incl shipping) the /me action stole my $.
[22:15:53] <MrTrick> Kraln: he'll ship anywhere though, why should it matter?
[22:16:08] <Kraln> australia to france shipping will take longer than etching it with a knife.
[22:16:14] <Kraln> (for instance)
[22:16:24] <jadew> lol
[22:16:46] <Kraln> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=19_20
[22:16:52] <Kraln> if you're really price sensitive...
[22:17:13] <MrTrick> Kraln: true. Depends on how fancy/fine your board needs to be too.
[22:18:01] <jadew> that's what I was thinking right now
[22:18:29] <jadew> I guess that if you have to get fine detail, you'll have to pay
[22:18:39] <jadew> otherwise it's really expensive
[22:19:22] <jadew> I don't know what kind of sallaries you guys have, but I'd rather etch and drill a pcb for an hour than work at my job for an hour so I can pay for the pcb and have it in 3-7 days
[22:19:37] <Kraln> My time is worth more than yours, apparently.
[22:19:50] <Kraln> not just the etching time. the finding the chemicals, verifying the board, etc etime
[22:20:01] <Kraln> also it's very restricting to have only one side available
[22:21:15] <jadew> I already have the chemicals, verifying the board takes 5 minutes max
[22:21:18] <MrTrick> Kraln: don't forget how much fun it is making double-sided boards! :-) Lining up those stencils perfectly, drilling all the vias, hoping you didn't miss any, soldering via connections...
[22:21:42] <Kraln> putting 181 parts on a pcb and reflowing it is almost already six hours of hassle
[22:21:55] <jadew> MrTrick, I was considering double sided pcbs, but they would deffinitely suck if you'd do them yourself
[22:21:58] <Kraln> add the hour on top to etch the damn thing, and then the 3 seconds to smoke it when you drop a screw
[22:22:16] <jadew> and that's because the fludor won't go on the other side as easy as it would with a proffesionally manufactured pcb
[22:23:06] <jadew> Kraln, I don't have that kind of PCBs
[22:23:34] <jadew> manufacturing a pcb for me takes about an hour, excluding the etching time in which I do something else
[22:23:53] <Kraln> this is the kind of thing I usually get involved with:
http://i.imgur.com/p3zjO.jpg
[22:24:02] <Kraln> medium complexity surface mount (qfn/tqfp)
[22:24:14] <jadew> well, I wouldn't expect you to do that yourself
[22:24:17] <Kraln> two or four layers
[22:26:05] <Kraln> I guess the point is when I'm working on a project, I don't want to have to futz with the pcb when I need to be futzing with design verification and firmware and so forth
[22:26:47] <jadew> this is a job for you right?
[22:27:03] <Kraln> I do it for work and pleasure ;)
[22:27:09] <Kraln> started out with pleasure
[22:27:19] <jadew> like all the good jobs
[22:27:25] <jadew> well, I do it as a hobby
[22:27:30] <Kraln> trick with the work is that it is for fun also :)
[22:27:53] <Kraln> this was the first pcb I ever designed:
http://www.akkit.org/passme/DSCN0139.JPG
[22:27:54] <jadew> so my stuff is really simple and I sort of enjoy even the pcb manufacturing process
[22:28:00] <Kraln> single sided, one component, one jumper
[22:28:50] <Kraln> oh I'm not saying it's not fun
[22:29:09] <Kraln> but if I have an idea and I need to try it out, it'll probably get breadboarded, and then designed up in eagle or altium
[22:29:16] <jadew> are you paying the prototypes out of your own pocket?
[22:29:28] <Kraln> then boards and parts ordered, and then I forget about it until the stuff comes
[22:29:32] <Kraln> and then I put it together and play
[22:29:40] <Kraln> jadew: for personal stuff? absolutely
[22:30:34] <jadew> yeah... I'm too cheap to do this, I would simply feel like being ripped off
[22:30:53] <Kraln> you may not value your time enough, yet, then :)
[22:31:03] <MrTrick> Kraln: took me a while to figure out that design was panelised. I was thinking "WHY are those headers pointing straight at each other? That'll never work!"
[22:31:12] <Kraln> MrTrick: ^.^
[22:32:05] <jadew> Kraln, I do value my time, but if I feel I'm being ripped off, I'd rather waste more money doing it a different way, out of spite
[22:32:43] <Kraln> ripped off? for one-off pcbs?
[22:33:08] <Kraln> a prototype run of ~5 devices will probably cost ~$500 per device, of which $40 may be the pcb cost
[22:33:16] <Kraln> maybe $90 in parts
[22:33:19] <Kraln> the rest is your time
[22:33:53] <jadew> I find that hard to believe, when I can buy electronics with fairly decent PCBs for $10 with components, case, box and a manual
[22:34:27] <Kraln> they were manufactured in quanties over 10,000
[22:34:38] <jadew> obviously
[22:34:54] <Kraln> so why is it hard to believe that single quantities are more expensive than mass production?
[22:35:38] <jadew> it's not, just that it doesn't make sense that they would cost more than everything else
[22:36:07] <jadew> for 25 euro, I can buy 3 or 4 times the components that fit in there
[22:36:15] <jadew> and maybe an enclosure as well
[22:36:34] <MrTrick> Well, don't look at the pcb pool prices as being representative.
[22:37:08] <Kraln> they're really not bad.
[22:39:22] <jadew> Kraln, do you make like $100/hr or something? 9h/day?
[22:39:39] <Kraln> haven't done the math
[22:39:56] <jadew> you're freelancing?
[22:40:05] <Kraln> maybe $45 an hour?
[22:40:49] <jadew> that's nice, if it is a full-time job
[22:41:22] <Kraln> I actually work a few jobs :)
[22:41:28] <Kraln> but yes, they're full time
[22:41:31] <jadew> otherwise, you're wasting time, rather than earning it, if you're willing to buy single sided PCBs for those prices
[23:03:02] <hackvana> jadew: hi
[23:07:18] <hackvana> jadew: There?
[23:14:54] <jadew> hackvana, yeah
[23:14:56] <jadew> hey
