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[02:29:32] <RikusW> so it seems earthing might have an effect, I was wide awake at 05:00 this morning :)
[02:29:42] <RikusW> that very very unusual
[02:52:12] <OndraSter> I was awake quite early too
[02:52:19] <OndraSter> because neighbour KEEPS DRILLING HIS HOUSE
[02:52:26] <OndraSter> I do wonder how many holes he can do before the house falls
[02:52:36] <OndraSter> I don't think it can be that much anymore
[02:58:00] <RikusW> heh
[02:58:18] <RikusW> maybe he should drill some more, then you'd be rid of the problem :-P
[02:58:58] <RikusW> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3116537/
[02:59:16] <RikusW> actual study on earthing and muscle soreness after exercise
[03:01:10] <Richard_Cavell> Guys I'm building my circuit and it's a mess. Is it always a mess when you prototype on stripboard?
[03:01:25] <RikusW> yep
[03:01:27] <OndraSter> no, because I do not build prototypes :D
[03:01:56] <RikusW> Richard_Cavell: take a peek at the link, you should understand the language used ;)
[03:01:59] <Richard_Cavell> RikusW: Is it a case of, as long as it works electrically, it doesn't matter how messy it is?
[03:03:13] <RikusW> more or less
[03:03:23] <RikusW> though good layout will make it less messy
[03:03:33] <RikusW> but takes a bit more time
[03:03:52] <RikusW> I used perfboard, its like stripboard, but no copper at all
[03:09:03] <Richard_Cavell> yes, I'm familiar with it
[03:09:12] <Richard_Cavell> I use something that's like perfboard but it does have a little bit of copper
[03:09:19] <Richard_Cavell> enough to solder component legs on
[03:09:23] <Richard_Cavell> just a circle of copper around each hole
[03:12:40] <RikusW> I have some with a square around each hole
[03:12:55] <RikusW> the board is FR4 1.6mm so a bit to cut...
[03:13:01] <RikusW> *bit hard
[03:13:11] <Richard_Cavell> So what's the solution? You build your own PCBs?
[03:13:20] <Richard_Cavell> That's something that I really need to learn how to do
[03:13:28] <RikusW> I have done a few pcb's
[03:13:31] <caesius> how likely is it that I've stuffed up fuses without even trying to change them?
[03:13:34] <RikusW> but the layout takes a while
[03:14:48] <RikusW> Richard_Cavell: use a laser printer on transparencies, the print side should face the pcb
[03:15:04] <RikusW> get photo sensitive board or photosensitive spray
[03:15:22] <RikusW> and developer, 1g of NaOH in 1L of water will work
[03:15:26] <RikusW> and etch
[03:15:59] <RikusW> Remember to properly rinse after developing or the NaOH will get into the etch.....
[03:16:52] <RikusW> I heated the last pcb I made a bit before etching, seems to "cure" the photoresist a bit
[03:17:47] <RikusW> caesius: its easy to measure a fues with a dmm
[03:18:14] <OndraSter> <RikusW> and developer, 1g of NaOH in 1L of water will work
[03:18:18] <OndraSter> 1g in 1l?
[03:18:22] <OndraSter> 10g in 1l...
[03:19:09] <caesius> RikusW: how so?
[03:20:57] <RikusW> 10g then
[03:21:25] <RikusW> caesius: just measure fuse resistance, or use diode check
[03:21:54] <caesius> oh wait - I am talking about AVR fuse bits..
[03:22:02] <caesius> are we on the same page?
[03:22:11] <OndraSter> lol
[03:22:29] <RikusW> lol
[03:22:42] <RikusW> caesius: it could happen
[03:22:43] <OndraSter> what were you doing?
[03:23:26] <RikusW> I once accessed ISP using way too high a SPI clock, and only read flash, it somehow caused the fuses to change...
[03:23:33] <caesius> just programming a bin to flash - suddenly it (avrdude) said something about corrupted fuse bits (or they had been changed), and would I like to change them back...
[03:23:43] <RikusW> high == 2MHz or so
[03:24:19] <RikusW> might be avrdude itself :-P
[03:24:36] <caesius> nar I've got another board I can program just fine
[03:24:51] <RikusW> do you have access to a HVPP programmer ?
[03:25:00] <RikusW> so programming with ISP now fails ?
[03:25:05] <caesius> no, unfortunalty
[03:25:10] <caesius> correct, it fails
[03:25:25] <RikusW> do you still have the hex fuse values ?
[03:25:32] <caesius> I have tried connecting a 1 MHz clock to XTAL1 and programming too
[03:25:44] <caesius> nope - I can't seem to access the chip at all
[03:25:52] <RikusW> using what ISP clock ? 115200 or lower ?
[03:26:19] <RikusW> you might have set RSTDSBL or DWEN
[03:26:26] <caesius> how would I know (using usbasp programmer with avrdude)
[03:26:29] <RikusW> or cleared SPIEN
[03:26:50] <caesius> How can I clear registers when I can't program it?
[03:27:16] <RikusW> caesius: you know that ISP clock needs to be <= clock/4 (preferred /5)
[03:28:06] <RikusW> you could build a simple HVPP programmer for fuses only
[03:28:22] <RikusW> I'd recommend connecting 12V via 1k5 resistor to the reset pin
[03:29:03] <caesius> hmm, so I guess I can't control the ISP clock (not even a jumper), and (correct me if wrong) I can only change default AVR clock by changing fuse bits?
[03:29:05] <RikusW> All you need to know is in the datasheet
[03:29:38] <RikusW> avrdude might be able to change ISP clock on the usbasp
[03:29:51] <caesius> RikusW: woah that sounds doable - so just hook up 12 V and leave it for a while?
[03:29:53] <RikusW> and usbasp used to have a low clock jumper
[03:30:06] <RikusW> not just hook up 12V
[03:30:18] <RikusW> you'll need to toggle some bits
[03:30:18] <caesius> RikusW: yeah but the DealExtreme version I have doesn't :(
[03:30:46] <RikusW> HVPP fuse programming is fairly simple
[03:30:57] <caesius> Ah Ok, guess I'll pull out the datasheet - can I just confirm the section I should be looking at? brb
[03:31:01] <RikusW> which AVR is on that board ?
[03:31:12] <caesius> ATMega324pa
[03:32:07] <RikusW> memory programming -> parallel programming
[03:32:49] <caesius> awesome, cheers. I will take the board into work 2mra ;)
[03:33:08] <caesius> Unless I can find a 12VDC source around here...
[03:33:33] <RikusW> you'll need a PNP and NPN transistor to switch the 12V on/off
[03:34:05] <RikusW> don't you have access to a STK500 or STK600 /
[03:34:05] <caesius> why?
[03:34:06] <RikusW> ?
[03:34:11] <RikusW> they do HVPP
[03:34:49] <caesius> hmm perhaps, does the HVPP only need access to the same pins as 6 pin ISP?
[03:35:07] <RikusW> no, 21 wires
[03:35:16] <RikusW> thats why its called parallel
[03:35:34] <caesius> hmm when it says (for example) "toggle XTAL1 at least six times" do I have all the time in the world to do this?
[03:35:44] <caesius> or is the sort of thing I want to have another AVR do?
[03:35:45] <RikusW> probably
[03:35:53] <RikusW> use another AVR :-P
[03:36:00] <caesius> RikusW: d'oh of course ;)
[03:36:05] <RikusW> you really don't want to do it manually
[03:36:34] <caesius> I'm just trying to picture how I will get access to all the pins
[03:36:51] <caesius> short of soldering wire to each pin
[03:37:00] <RikusW> you'll need port B + D
[03:37:15] <RikusW> DIP or TQFP ?
[03:37:24] <caesius> TQFP
[03:37:28] <RikusW> ugh
[03:37:31] <caesius> yeah lol
[03:37:41] <RikusW> you'll have to check that the circuit doesn't interfere too
[03:37:51] <caesius> eh screw it - might be easier to just buy a new chip (or three)
[03:37:57] <caesius> thanks tho :)
[03:38:58] <RikusW> the STK600 got some addon boards with nice TQFP sockets
[03:39:13] <RikusW> its expensive though
[03:39:26] <RikusW> the AVRDragon can do HVPP too
[03:39:52] <RikusW> and this too ->
http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home
[03:39:53] <caesius> there is probably one at work, but I think for the effort it may be better just to pay another $10.
[03:40:18] <caesius> hmm thanks for link
[03:40:32] <RikusW> I got my m324a for $3 :)
[03:40:35] <RikusW> DIP
[03:40:47] <RikusW> or it was $4 at the time
[03:40:52] <RikusW> ZAR32
[03:41:01] <caesius> I'm in New Zealand, I think we get ripped off with everything :)
[03:41:12] <RikusW> I got mine from RS
[03:41:20] <RikusW> rs-online.com
[03:41:21] <caesius> ha, same
[03:41:37] <caesius> I think it was like $NZ 9, can't be sure though
[03:41:49] <caesius> bugger RS is offline atm
[03:41:50] <RikusW> their prices vary a lot, even on the same day with slightly different chips
[03:42:16] <RikusW> so I just keep looking for the cheap ones ;)
[03:42:33] <RikusW> the m324a is more expensive now, seems I justs got lucky once :)
[03:42:41] <RikusW> should have gotten more than 2
[03:43:32] <caesius> the biggest issue I have with the AVRs is how long it takes RS to get them to me (no fault of Atmel)
[03:43:46] <caesius> I guess they come from Europe
[03:44:11] <RikusW> uk
[03:44:46] <RikusW> most probably anyways
[03:45:43] <caesius> I am biased toward AVRs - it was my first exposure to microcontrollers way back in second year engineering
[03:45:54] <RikusW> GOOD :)
[03:45:55] <caesius> shows what first impressions can do ;)
[03:50:18] <OndraSter> AVRs ftw
[03:52:20] <xjd> what happens if your oscillator is too far away from XTAL1 and XTAL2?
[04:00:03] <RikusW> the crystal ?
[04:00:29] <OndraSter> xjd, define "too far away"
[04:00:52] <RikusW> instability..
[04:45:30] <xjd> OndraSter: lets say 4 cm
[04:48:12] <OndraSter> that is quite far away
[04:48:16] <OndraSter> are the lines straight?
[04:48:38] <RikusW> xjd: why so far ?
[04:48:53] <xjd> bad prototype design
[04:49:03] <RikusW> I'd say the closer the better
[04:49:26] <xjd> yes.. I know that, but I was trying to find out what the maximum safe distance would be
[04:49:26] <RikusW> 4cm same length lines surrounded by ground might be ol
[04:49:29] <RikusW> ok
[04:49:42] <RikusW> not sure
[04:49:49] <RikusW> does it work ?
[04:50:04] <xjd> distance from XTAL1 and XTAL2 to crystal has to be exactly the same?
[04:50:23] <xjd> no.. it doesnt work :p
[04:50:33] <RikusW> preferable I'd say
[04:50:42] <OndraSter> well
[04:50:56] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> are the lines straight?
[04:51:08] <OndraSter> angles add inductance
[04:51:15] <xjd> no.. not straight, but 4 cm in total
[04:51:17] <xjd> yeah.. true
[04:51:26] <OndraSter> although I have seen right angled 100MHz SDRAM data paths
[04:51:41] <RikusW> angles add impedance mismatches
[04:52:00] <xjd> this is like 11.0592 MHz .. nothing badass
[04:52:55] <RikusW> did you add 22pF caps ?
[04:53:05] <xjd> 30pF
[04:53:06] <RikusW> one on each side to ground ?
[04:53:14] <RikusW> should be ok..
[04:53:14] <xjd> yeah
[04:55:06] <xjd> hmm.. weird
[04:55:37] <RikusW> try 22 or 18pF caps ?
[04:57:09] <xjd> the manual says 30 +- 10 pF
[04:57:23] <xjd> so that should be okey
[04:57:47] <RikusW> is the clock fuses set right ?
[04:59:58] <xjd> thats something AVR specific isnt it?
[05:00:12] <OndraSter> yes
[05:00:14] <RikusW> yes
[05:00:20] <OndraSter> you tell it to use external xtal in the fuses
[05:00:30] <RikusW> NOT external clock
[05:00:54] <xjd> this is 8051.. and as far as I can tell external xtal is on by default
[05:48:16] <Horologium> gotta love the old standby 8051 series.
[05:48:44] <Horologium> specially the newer faster cores. ds89c450 is clock for clock as fast as the avr.
[05:49:33] <OndraSter_> at what consumption?
[05:49:35] <OndraSter_> and price?
[05:49:55] <Horologium> free samples so far.
[05:50:00] <Horologium> let me look at price.
[05:51:25] <Horologium> ouch..nevermind on that...hehe...24 USD at digikey.
[05:51:41] <Horologium> and comparable to the atmega644p chip.
[05:52:22] <Horologium> 89c450 is about 4 times the price.
[05:52:48] <Horologium> but has two things the atmega644p does not have.
[05:53:29] <Horologium> built in autobaud serial bootloader that allows you to upload a simple iHex file with a terminal program
[05:53:31] <Horologium> and
[05:54:04] <Horologium> external memory access allowing you to connect flash, eprom, eeprom, or sram and execute code from external memory...and/or access that external memory as data.
[05:54:46] <Horologium> 8051 and avr each have their advantages, however.
[05:54:54] <Horologium> and overall I prefer the avr.
[05:54:55] <OndraSter_> I wish AVR could execute from RAM :)
[05:54:59] <Horologium> me too.
[05:55:16] <Horologium> would make my current major project much better.
[05:55:20] <OndraSter_> hehe
[05:55:31] <OndraSter_> on such xmega a1u with 16MB external DRAM it would be faptastic
[05:55:46] <Horologium> as it is I'm currently using pic32, pic18, avr, and 8052 chips.
[05:56:36] <OndraSter_> I am loyal to AVR :D
[05:56:43] <OndraSter_> but I might be forced to do PIC at school
[05:57:00] <OndraSter_> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en535092
[05:57:01] <OndraSter_> this
[05:57:02] <Horologium> building an OS like the commodore64/128 currently, or attempting to anyhow.
[05:57:22] <OndraSter_> yay
[05:57:23] <OndraSter_> nice
[05:57:36] <OndraSter_> you could write AVR VM for AVR and "execute from RAM" :D
[05:57:36] <Horologium> pic24F isn't bad and you should be able to work in C with it so eases up a lot of the issues I have with PIC.
[05:57:43] <OndraSter_> http://cz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/DM240011/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvFPGEOwQcrY25aAjl0yjjLojsRYW5cv0E%3d
[05:57:47] <OndraSter_> 51€ for starter board
[05:57:57] <OndraSter_> I still prefer Atmel's Xplained boards
[05:58:07] <OndraSter_> and Atmel Studio :D
[05:59:00] <Horologium> I've never used any of the manufacturer built boards.
[05:59:12] <OndraSter_> neither did I
[05:59:14] <Horologium> started out with bare pic and avr chips some years back.
[05:59:39] <Horologium> went avr over pic because pic didn't have any linux C compiler back then.
[05:59:53] <Horologium> and, I've been almost exclusively linux since about 2002.
[06:02:30] <OndraSter_> I've been exclusively windows user since the beginnings of me & internet :D
[06:02:32] <xjd> 8051 ftw :p
[06:02:54] <xjd> 8051+NetBSD yeahhh
[06:03:12] <xjd> NetBSD for development that is.. not for running on the microcontroller :p
[06:03:48] <Horologium> OndraSter_, I started in the microsoft world in the dos 3.2 days.
[06:03:55] <Horologium> and worked my way right up through it all.
[06:04:47] <Horologium> but I prefer unix/linux over windows as I was a unix user in the 80s along with dos.
[06:05:33] <Horologium> xjd, only 8051/2 chip I've used is the maxim/dallas ds89c450 so far.
[06:06:45] <OndraSter_> Horologium, hehe
[06:06:56] <OndraSter_> I am too young to remember using DOS for more than ducktales and TTD
[06:07:00] <OndraSter_> within norton commander
[06:07:06] <xjd> I used to have a development board for ATMega before, but someone threw it in the trash thinking it was some old unusable electronics stuff.. thank you very much.. using AT89C4051 now
[06:07:46] <OndraSter_> fail
[06:07:59] <Horologium> who needs a board? other than a breadboard that is.
[06:08:19] <OndraSter_> final products do
[06:08:25] <xjd> uhm.. its nice for development..?
[06:08:26] <OndraSter_> it is nice to develop on breadboard
[06:08:41] <OndraSter_> or on developer board with some peripherals you could use
[06:08:44] <OndraSter_> so you can write driver(s) for it
[06:09:22] <Horologium> I teach microcontrollers to kids and we don't use any premade boards, not even the programmers. They make their own parallel port programmers in the second class.
[06:11:10] <OndraSter_> eh
[06:11:18] <OndraSter_> we had atmel's at91sam7 chips at middle school
[06:11:30] <OndraSter_> uSB FLIP built into the silicon
[06:12:43] <Corwin> middle school ?
[06:13:09] <OndraSter_> SPSE Jecna
[06:13:21] <Corwin> thats high school :)
[06:13:24] <OndraSter_> for US maybe
[06:14:58] <Horologium> we barely had apple-II computers in highschool.
[06:15:13] <Horologium> and I knew more about them than the teacher who taught the computer use and programming course!
[06:15:24] <OndraSter_> haha
[06:16:07] <OndraSter_> anyway, I am picking up "embedded systems" for 2nd semester, although it is ment to be at 4th semester. If I drop out (because of math) I will at least be able to say "well, at least I did something I enjoyed!"
[06:16:12] <OndraSter_> and that is the PIC stuff
[06:16:52] <Corwin> :D
[06:17:13] <OndraSter_> Corwin,
http://clip2net.com/s/2uvUm
[06:17:16] <OndraSter_> SO HARD!
[06:17:18] <OndraSter_> lol
[06:17:41] <Corwin> :)
[06:17:51] <OndraSter_> note that all of it is abstracted with C libraries
[06:18:00] <OndraSter_> it is very similar to arduino :/
[06:18:15] <Horologium> eeewww. abstraction!
[06:18:34] <Horologium> and,,,eewwww ardweeny!
[06:18:40] <OndraSter_> well abstraction allows you to port it to any architecture easier
[06:18:40] <Horologium> :}
[06:18:50] <OndraSter_> or even different chip
[06:19:01] <OndraSter_> if it is like mega - where some registers have different bits on different chips
[06:19:54] <Horologium> I'm of the feeling that one should learn the hardware that one is working on.
[06:20:25] <OndraSter_> aye
[06:25:55] <MrTrick> I'm after an itty bitty ISP programming header. (smaller than 0.1" 2x3) Is there any particular design that's common, or should I just plan my own? (probably 1mm spacing 1x6)
[06:26:30] <Horologium> plan your own.
[06:26:44] <OndraSter_> proprietary ftw!
[06:27:09] <Horologium> I've seen pressdown programmer interfaces. little spring loaded pins that press down onto a 2x3 grid of pads on the board.
[06:27:19] <Horologium> that way the board just needs pads, no pins.
[06:27:44] <MrTrick> yeah, it may well be a press type.
[06:27:51] <Horologium> you could even do it as a 5x1 or 6x1 edge connector.
[06:27:56] <MrTrick> I still can't use the 0.1" 2x3 design though, no room. ^_^
[06:28:27] <Horologium> mios, mosi, sck, reset, gnd....just need 5 pins...unless you are providing power as well then will need 6.
[06:28:39] <Horologium> miso, not mios.
[06:29:11] <OndraSter_> actually vtg is useful
[06:29:19] <OndraSter_> to set output transistors on the chip
[06:29:21] <OndraSter_> programmer
[06:29:39] <MrTrick> I should probably have vtg connected, to keep the AVR dragon happy.
[06:29:40] <Horologium> depending on the project, you might consider a bootloader which can be done with 3 or 4 pins.
[06:30:30] <Horologium> can imagine how one would do an i2c bootloader with gnd and power that needs 4 pins.
[06:30:47] <MrTrick> true, but leaving debugWire and all the rest of my options open is a nice thing.
[06:31:01] <Horologium> put it on one corner of the board and use an edge connector.
[06:31:13] <Horologium> or little clip.
[06:31:56] <MrTrick> will consider that.
[06:32:20] <MrTrick> I was hoping that Sparkfun's 1.5mm-spaced connector would be a standard, but it doesn't appear to be common.
[06:32:32] <MrTrick> and at 1.5mm, I need it to bend slightly. ^_^
[06:34:50] <Horologium> if you are looking at this for production then I would suggest going with something more standard.
[06:34:57] <Horologium> double sided board?
[06:37:11] <MrTrick> double sided round board with 25 components, 25mm in diameter. *seriously* short on space.
[06:38:10] <MrTrick> see, sparkfun have this, aimed at PIC programming
https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/images/products/1/9/4/00194-3.jpg
[06:38:14] <Horologium> then I would look for a 2x3 clip of some kind and put pads along one edge...3 top and 3 bottom.
[06:39:40] <MrTrick> I tried that. With standard 0.1" spacing it's way too large. a smaller version might work
[06:40:18] <MrTrick> alternately a header like
http://www.globalconnectortechnology.com/pcb-board-to-board/pdf/BC020.pdf isn't hard to obtain
[06:41:20] <MrTrick> it could be used like;
http://www.sparkfun.com/images/tutorials/ICSP_Upgrade/ICSP-Upgrade-1.jpg
[06:42:40] <Horologium> you don't have room for 3 pads along one edge, eh?
[06:44:35] <MrTrick> I'm just not sure how it's less fiddly than this approach
[06:45:11] <MrTrick> pads are self-centering, at least.
[06:45:30] <Horologium> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/927739-08/927739-08-ND/1129843 this is like what I was thinking to use to connect to it.
[06:45:33] <Horologium> but is pricy.
[06:45:59] <hackvana> Do it with pogo pins
[06:46:03] <OndraSter_> pogo pins ftw
[06:46:42] <Horologium> yeah..that was my first thought..just couldn't remember what they were called.
[06:46:44] <MrTrick> then I need an enclosure
[06:46:49] <MrTrick> s/enclosure/jig
[06:47:32] * MrTrick gets confused about which channel he's on. :-P
[06:49:05] <hackvana> MrTrick: I'll send you some free with your board.
[06:49:06] <hackvana> You were thinking it was #hackvana for a moment there, eh?
[06:49:18] <MrTrick> ^_^
[06:50:08] <MrTrick> I still want to try this approach. I have some pogo pins, here, and while their ends are nice and pointy, they can't be placed *that* closely together.
[06:51:26] <MrTrick> Horologium: I've got one of those clips... it might work, but it's hard to ensure it doesn't slide around.
[06:53:04] <Horologium> microcontroller is surface mount?
[06:53:10] <MrTrick> QFN.
[06:53:22] <OndraSter_> " they can't be placed *that* closely together."
[06:53:28] <OndraSter_> I jigged few phones
[06:53:31] <OndraSter_> and yes, they can be VERY close :D
[06:53:57] <Horologium> gonna have to give somewhere...either make room or use a teeny tiny plug.
[06:54:45] <MrTrick> teeny tiny plug for $2, thanks Alex.
[06:55:11] <OndraSter_> which teeny tiny plug?
[07:01:06] <MrTrick> http://au.element14.com/global-connector-technology/bc020-06-a-0380-0300-l/board-board-connector-header-6way/dp/1798705
[07:01:35] <OndraSter_> almost a buck ?!
[07:02:14] <MrTrick> and I'd make a little breakout board to a standard programming header.
[07:03:53] <hackvana> MrTrick: Here is a board of mine. The 6 programming pads are at 0.05" pitch:
http://imgur.com/D2BHm
[07:04:36] <MrTrick> Interesting! I spy the tact switch and the USB plug.
[07:04:44] <hackvana> I program them with pogo pins
[07:04:45] <hackvana> I made a jig with some old pcbs and hot glue.
[07:04:45] <hackvana> Plonk the board in, program it, drop it out. Easy.
[07:04:45] <hackvana> Yes
[07:04:50] <MrTrick> ah, I see.
[07:05:00] <hackvana> There's a 6-pin header. Usually the header is not fitted
[07:05:14] <hackvana> The board is made double-sided, but only the top side is used for the application.
[07:06:05] <hackvana> The bottom side has traces which connect the 6-pin header to 6 pads which line up with the 6 pads on top.
[07:06:25] <hackvana> The idea is that when you get your boards fabbed, you sacrifice one of your boards to be the programmer. You don't fit the micro/switch/whatever, just the 6-pin header.
[07:06:34] <MrTrick> like
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ratsept/7901894110/ ?
[07:06:42] <MrTrick> what part was the header?
[07:06:47] <hackvana> Then built it into a jig
[07:07:11] <hackvana> Hang on, let me start the VPN
[07:07:22] <hackvana> I just used a standard 0.1" 2x3 header
[07:08:55] <Richard_Cavell> I just finished building my circuits!
[07:08:57] <Richard_Cavell> Yay!
[07:09:14] <OndraSter_> that's some big pogo pins
[07:09:47] <RikusW> hackvana: so China actually allow a VPN out ?
[07:10:01] <OndraSter_> when I was changing them on my HD2 jig (because when I received it from my friend half of them were broken) they were <0.8mm in diameter, going down to really really thin top
[07:10:15] <OndraSter_> I still have got 10 or so left
[07:10:23] <OndraSter_> waiting for another phone to be bricked :D
[07:12:41] <hackvana> RikusW: Of course they don't, but if all the encrypted traffic was blocked, industry would stop, the economic miracle would evaporate and there'd be angry people with pitchforks.
[07:17:42] <MrTrick> this is looking small, next to a 0603 LED land pattern. I think I'll use 0.5" instead of 1mm.
[07:18:58] <RikusW> hackvana: just wondering, how much stuff is blocked ?
[07:22:42] <hackvana> porn+google+facebook+twitter
[07:22:55] <hackvana> Basically, all the stuff a man could need.
[07:23:18] <hackvana> (The whitelist for my home-made VPN:
https://github.com/CapnKernel/crabs/blob/master/crabs.txt )
[07:24:26] <hackvana> MrTrick: I have everything here to make a great picture of what I did, but I can't find the CF for my camera. I'll look around again.
[07:24:50] <MrTrick> would it be quicker to just explain?
[07:25:49] <MrTrick> You sacrificed a board as a programmer.. ah, so despite every board having traces on both sides, only the programmer board uses the bottom traces
[07:27:54] <hackvana> That's right
[07:27:57] <MrTrick> I think I get what you mean
[07:28:06] <hackvana> As far as the jig goes, here's how I did it
[07:28:20] <hackvana> You can get some double-ended headers that are supposed to go between boards
[07:28:33] <hackvana> I got some header that was 0.05" pitch
[07:28:42] <hackvana> Then I pulled out all the pins with pliers
[07:29:12] <hackvana> Then I bought pogo pins of just the right diameter to slide into the vacant holes.
[07:29:42] <hackvana> What that gave me was pogo pins spaced at exactly 0.05"
[07:29:56] <Horologium> hackvana, can live without everything there but google.
[07:30:03] <hackvana> Yeah
[07:30:17] <hackvana> As you can see, half that list is google
[07:30:43] <Horologium> porn is,,meh.
[07:30:58] <Horologium> facebook and twitter are totally fucking useless and need to be wiped from the face of the internet.
[07:31:17] <MrTrick> ah, good idea.
[07:31:24] <MrTrick> ^ hackvana
[07:31:38] <hackvana> Quite agree, I never post, but plenty of fools^H^H^H^H^Hpeople post stuff on Facebook/twitter that I really want to see. Or at least, they tell me I really want to see.
[07:32:36] <Horologium> I have both of them blocked at my firewall.
[07:32:39] <hackvana> Then I cut a slot in some phenolic veroboard, poked the pins through, then hotglued the header to the veroboard.
[07:33:01] <Horologium> and a script that puts ##### in place of such URLs when they come through irc.
[07:33:55] <hackvana> After that, it was just a matter of adding more and more old PCB to make a four-layer cage that my boards fit into snugly.
[07:34:07] <hackvana> All held together with hot glue.
[07:34:18] <OndraSter_> <Horologium> facebook and twitter are totally fucking useless and need to be wiped from the face of the internet.
[07:34:19] <OndraSter_> no
[07:34:33] <OndraSter_> if you want to go to a beer but not by yourself
[07:34:42] <OndraSter_> you just ask in your favourite group "anybody beer?"
[07:34:49] <OndraSter_> you get 10 people that say yes and meet you :P
[07:34:54] <OndraSter_> with really little effort :P
[07:34:54] <Horologium> eeww.
[07:34:57] <Horologium> human interaction.
[07:35:00] <OndraSter_> oh
[07:35:05] <OndraSter_> then no, facebook is not for you :D
[07:35:25] <hackvana> Finally I soldered 6 wires to a 6-pin header, plugged that into my 6-pin cable, and the other cable goes into my nifty Tom_itx programmer.
[07:35:52] <hackvana> Horologium: I think they're waiting for you over in #still-angry-at-the-world
[07:35:59] <Horologium> naa.
[07:36:02] <Horologium> I hate humans
[07:36:05] <Horologium> the world is ok.
[07:36:27] <Horologium> and there are a few humans I can tolerate, like my wifey.
[07:38:38] <OndraSter_> grumpy cat?
[07:38:51] <hackvana> Fan of Sartre are we? " "L'enfer, c'est les autres" and all that?
[07:39:05] <OndraSter_> no
[07:39:13] <OndraSter_> I don't read books
[07:39:14] <OndraSter_> :D
[07:39:22] <OndraSter_> let alone in french
[07:39:37] <MrTrick> So, I want to avoid brown-outs in the microcontroller. The power supply is a cr2032, and there are momentary (0.5s) 100mA current draws from the rest of the circuit.
[07:39:50] <OndraSter_> caps?
[07:40:35] <MrTrick> I'm thinking a capacitor and a low-voltage-drop diode, so that the rest of the circuit can drop without resetting the micro
[07:40:37] <hackvana> "L'enfer, c'est les autres": "Hell is other people"
[07:41:01] <OndraSter_> MrTrick, diode?
[07:41:34] <hackvana> You might try a cap or two to ground, and an inductor between the micro and the rest of the circuit
[07:41:54] <MrTrick> so the voltage in the capacitor doesn't leak back into the circuit
[07:42:07] <MrTrick> An inductor might be a good idea, yes.
[07:44:14] <MrTrick> not sure about the size of them though
[07:46:06] <MrTrick> I'm wondering; for the slightly simpler diode circuit... if I have the cap charged to 3.3V, the micro drawing 5mA, and the external voltage dips too low, how do I calculate the cap size I need for a given duration (before it drops below 2.0V)
[07:49:27] <RikusW> about 5mF ?
[07:49:47] <RikusW> for 1s
[07:50:03] <MrTrick> can you show your work? :-)
[07:50:13] <MrTrick> 5mF is massive!
[07:50:19] <RikusW> it is
[07:50:36] <OndraSter_> VERY massive
[07:50:58] <RikusW> iirc 1mCoulomb 1V 1mF
[07:51:15] <OndraSter_> count it as a ripple
[07:51:21] <RikusW> 10V x 1mF = 10mC
[07:51:31] <OndraSter_> delta v = I/(f*C)
[07:51:58] <OndraSter_> thus C = I/(f*delta v)
[07:52:05] <RikusW> C per second = 1A
[07:52:10] * MrTrick blinks
[07:52:12] <OndraSter_> 5m/2*1
[07:52:20] <OndraSter_> huh... that is 2.5mf
[07:52:23] <OndraSter_> something is wrong :D
[07:52:49] <RikusW> get a 4700uF cap ;)
[07:52:58] <OndraSter_> :D
[07:53:01] <OndraSter_> in a SMD preferably!
[07:53:03] <OndraSter_> :P
[07:53:04] <RikusW> strip a broken motherboard
[07:53:10] <RikusW> no way ;)
[07:53:20] <RikusW> 0201 :-P
[07:53:22] <OndraSter_> :D
[07:53:26] <OndraSter_> 01005
[07:53:36] <RikusW> does that even exist ?
[07:53:39] <OndraSter_> sure
[07:53:46] <RikusW> and smaller ?
[07:53:48] <OndraSter_> I think there is even 0050025
[07:53:54] <RikusW> ugh
[07:54:01] <OndraSter_> but I am not sure about that
[07:54:10] <OndraSter_> I read recently that "somebody" made even smaller pieces
[07:54:14] <OndraSter_> but not sure if it was 01005 or half of that
[07:54:22] <OndraSter_> dirt :)
[07:54:35] <RikusW> how could that even be soldered or placed ?!!
[07:55:01] <RikusW> it should be epoxied inside an IC instead if its so small..
[07:55:09] <RikusW> SoC
[07:55:24] <OndraSter_> :)
[07:55:33] <OndraSter_> 0201 are common in phones
[07:55:41] <OndraSter_> 01005 not so sure
[07:55:58] <OndraSter_> I like the pick and place machines that do this
[07:56:02] <OndraSter_> 0402 and 0201 parts
[07:56:08] <OndraSter_> they do 1000 parts per minute or so
[07:56:19] * MrTrick will make do with 22uF caps for now
[07:56:21] <RikusW> 0402 seems to be usable, only just
[07:56:24] <MrTrick> they're 0805, at least.
[07:56:35] <OndraSter_> hmm?
[07:56:39] <MrTrick> *yawn*
[07:56:40] <OndraSter_> I might remember it wrong
[07:56:41] * MrTrick goes to sleep
[07:56:43] <OndraSter_> but it was VERY fast
[07:58:03] <OndraSter_> I would love to build a pnp machine someday :)
[08:03:55] <OndraSter_> RikusW,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8qkaTsr2_o&feature=related
[08:04:00] <OndraSter_> this does "down to 01005" :)
[08:07:59] <OndraSter_> RikusW,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X-646cbhvo&feature=related 1:50 -- this is the high speed one :)
[08:09:55] <RikusW> OndraSter_: what kind of MBs is that vids ?
[08:10:05] <RikusW> 10 20 100 ?....
[08:10:06] <OndraSter_> gigabyte 775
[08:10:07] <RikusW> 1 ?
[08:10:12] <OndraSter_> what what kind?
[08:10:18] <RikusW> how much...
[08:10:25] <RikusW> jGPRS is slooooow
[08:10:26] <OndraSter_> well it goes 1 by 1
[08:10:32] <OndraSter_> but it does tens of parts per second
[08:11:59] <RikusW> OndraSter_: will email the links to my brother
[08:12:21] <OndraSter_> all these manufacturing boards videos are cool
[08:22:05] <RikusW> yep
[08:23:36] <OndraSter_> get a proper internet already yo :P
[08:24:03] <OndraSter_> afk
[08:24:09] <RikusW> hmm
[08:24:23] <RikusW> no DSL 20km from town
[08:25:25] <Horologium> that's within limits of fiber!
[08:25:46] <RikusW> no fiber close by either
[08:26:01] <RikusW> there is wifi, but not in line of sight
[08:28:04] <Horologium> I lucked out here...very rural iowa...fiber to the prem.
[08:28:20] <Horologium> get 3Mb/s right now. if I wanted to pay for it I could get 10Mb/s
[08:28:34] <Horologium> there is a 200 pair fiber demark 50 feet from my front door.
[08:29:42] <RikusW> nice
[08:29:55] <RikusW> Guess South Africans aren't that lucky
[08:30:24] * RikusW builds a quantum entanglement link and connects it to OndraSter_'s network ;)
[08:31:13] <OndraSter_> heh
[08:31:16] <OndraSter_> you wouldn't want to do that
[08:31:25] <OndraSter_> recently I have been having issues with speed and reliability :P
[08:31:34] <RikusW> ugh
[08:31:49] <Corwin> who would need network when he have quantum entanglement?
[08:31:52] * RikusW looks for someone else with a fast connection :-P
[08:31:58] <OndraSter_> afk again
[08:33:06] <RikusW> 1TB internet :)
[08:33:27] <Corwin> only 1gbps fiber
[08:33:52] <Corwin> no use for 1 terabit line
[08:39:33] * RikusW wonders why no one ever built a QE comms link....
[09:00:36] <Tom_itx> !seen abcminiuser
[09:00:37] <tobbor> abcminiuser was last seen in #avr on Oct 27 09:18 2012
[09:04:34] <rlc> has something happened to abc?
[09:05:04] <Tom_itx> work
[09:05:08] <Tom_itx> and bars in Norway
[09:05:32] <rlc> ah, the chicks got his attention
[09:05:50] <Tom_itx> i doubt
[09:05:56] <Tom_itx> he took his gf with him
[09:08:20] <vectory> must be the nordish beer then
[13:21:57] <JF1976> hi all, just reading links, provided. im looking to understand a few devices i have a bit better than the provider allows for, i have two pic/mcu on usb dev boards but no access under linux.. i got them from here
http://www.teensy.co.uk/avr_guides.php and should have waited till the teensy was available still... if anyone could point me to some basics in communicating with them under linux that would be great
[13:22:32] <JF1976> soz for long post, just wanted to get that out there for im off for a few mins...
[13:23:49] <JF1976> ive got :Maximus AVR USB PIC18F4550 v1.2 & X3Max 128KB Development Board with no linux tools
[13:24:04] <JF1976> think about it and ill be back lol..
[13:24:19] <specing> PIC != AVR
[13:25:43] <JF1976> && (echo "no help here";exit 1) ? || can you help >
http://code.google.com/p/mphidflash/
[13:26:25] <specing> you group commands with { }
[13:26:49] <specing> Again, PIC != AVR
[13:27:33] <specing> I suggest you first figure out what you actually have since you seem to be *very* confused
[13:27:39] <JF1976> just thought someone might be able to help with some basic thats all?
[13:27:41] <JF1976> i am
[13:27:47] <JF1976> confused
[13:27:55] <specing> Ok
[13:28:00] <specing> Now what do you have?
[13:28:33] <JF1976> didnt think to much about it when i got them only that it 'should' be able to get them working, only i haven't
[13:29:04] <JF1976> AVR USB v1.2 PIC18F4550 32KB Development Board from here
http://www.teensy.co.uk/maximus12_windows_guide.php
[13:29:42] <JF1976> i get that its a hidloader that i need, but should i not be able to change stuff like the bootloader etc..
[13:30:10] <specing> Again, PIC != AVR
[13:30:15] <JF1976> kk
[13:30:18] <specing> Do you have a PIC or an AVR?
[13:30:46] <specing> It might help if you look on the chip markings, you know
[13:32:48] <JF1976> one is a pic18f4550 on a usb iscp ? dev board that uses a hidloader to program the pic
[13:32:56] <JF1976> the other is X3Max and X3Tool software can be used with ANY hex file intended for the majority of the popular AVR USB development boards such as the AT90USB162, AT90USB1286 etc
[13:33:23] <JF1976> again you use an app to apply the hex you want to run
[13:33:44] <JF1976> but i want to use the devices for programming with other bootloaders etc...
[13:35:33] <JF1976> both devices have there chips obfuscated
[13:35:43] <JF1976> brb got to go for about an hour
[13:39:26] <uv_> good evening
[13:45:50] <Horologium> JF1976, you have a usbPIC18F4550 microcontroller.
[13:46:00] <Horologium> that is a pic microcontroller made by microchip
[13:46:09] <Horologium> this channel is about AVR microcontrollers made by atmel.
[13:46:13] <Horologium> you might try ##pic for that board.
[13:47:03] <Horologium> and you can't use ANY hex filefor any chip on that AVR board...that would require AT90USBxxx chips only.
[13:47:08] <Horologium> or code for such chips.
[13:49:25] <Horologium> and more properly, compiled to fit your particular hardware setup, clock speed, i/o, etc.
[13:55:35] <rue_mohr> is there a ##pic? I think youhve to go to ##microcontrollers
[13:56:06] <Casper> ##microcontrollers yeah
[13:56:08] <JF1976> thanks for channels,
[13:56:20] <Casper> rue_mohr: come install my winter tires!
[13:56:49] <rue_mohr> on my truck? then drive away? ok
[13:56:52] * Tom_itx gives Casper a tire iron and tells him to do it himself
[13:57:18] <rue_mohr> now you dont it, now he's armed
[13:57:22] <Tom_itx> btw, have you ever mounted tires with nothing but 2 irons?
[13:57:45] <rue_mohr> no, but I'v changed a bicycle tire with my bare hands
[13:57:52] <Tom_itx> pfff
[13:57:57] <Tom_itx> any wuss can do that
[13:57:58] <JF1976> is there any way i can find out more about the devices using linux, bootloaders etc ?
[13:58:02] <rue_mohr> I cant imagine its more than 40x worse than that
[13:58:41] <rue_mohr> JF1976, you want a really really tiny chip that runs linux so you can put normal software programs your used to on it to do things like flash leds?
[13:59:08] <Tom_itx> routers use linux
[13:59:38] <JF1976> i want to be able to dump the current bootloader and replace it with an opensource version, then use it for learn a bit more about programming them
[13:59:40] <Casper> Tom_itx: I actually need more an arm than a tool: they are already mounted on rims, and I have a gun
[13:59:54] <Casper> so it's really a question of moving them...
[14:00:02] <Tom_itx> so you're armed and dangerous
[14:00:03] <Casper> bbl
[14:00:08] * Tom_itx calls 911
[14:00:08] <Casper> oh sure
[14:00:51] <rue_mohr> ok there is a windstorm, I should start working on alternate electricity
[14:00:54] <Casper> http://imageshack.us/a/img710/8440/img3253q.jpg ← part of the tools I have, for when I last did some repair job on my car
[14:00:57] <Tom_itx> that's like a 5 min job sir
[14:01:13] <rue_mohr> rebuilding the gen?
[14:01:14] <rue_mohr> no
[14:01:29] <Tom_itx> changing 2 tires
[14:01:34] <Casper> 4
[14:01:44] <Casper> and checking for some tok tok
[14:01:54] <JF1976> thanks..
[14:01:54] <Tom_itx> what's the drills for? in case you don't have a leak?
[14:02:05] <Casper> and front right brake make noise (brand new caliper, disk and pads)
[14:02:19] <Tom_itx> so you didn't install em properly
[14:02:22] <rue_mohr> I like the airchisel and lack of any pneumatic supply
[14:02:53] <Casper> Tom_itx: that was for... oh yeah.... a nut stripped
[14:03:05] <Casper> I had to drill the stud to take off the wheel :/
[14:03:18] <Casper> bbl
[14:03:31] <Tom_itx> just spin the wheel really fast and lock the brakes
[14:03:35] <Tom_itx> it will come off
[14:03:52] <rue_mohr> floor is way too clean, and all the small drillbits aren't broken, you need to use your shop more
[14:04:39] <Tom_itx> gloves? what are gloves for?
[14:04:49] <Tom_itx> looks like the most used item there
[14:05:41] <Tom_itx> brake dust n grease all over the drill case too
[14:08:55] <amee2woof> hmm... seems like the rumour of the death of Dennis Avner a.k.a. Stalking Cat is most likely a hoax
[14:16:53] <OndraSter_> so, if I am compiling some .c source, is there any way how to let it generate asm and all addresses it jumps to to name somehow?
[14:16:58] <OndraSter_> so I can take it, optimalize it and then compile it? :P
[14:17:04] <OndraSter_> well, translate it
[14:21:03] <r00t|home> gcc -S Compile only; do not assemble or link
[14:22:55] <Tom_itx> view the list file
[15:02:20] <OndraSter_> Tom_itx, but the list file contains already all the stuff
[15:02:29] <OndraSter_> r00t|home, and how do I compile it with linking?
[15:02:31] <OndraSter_> err
[15:02:34] <OndraSter_> assemble and link it
[15:06:52] <OndraSter_> haha Microchip didn't fail
[15:07:06] <OndraSter_> showing some examples with MAC addresses -DE-AD-BE-EF
[15:07:07] <OndraSter_> or
[15:07:13] <OndraSter_> -BA-BE-F0-0D
[16:03:00] <OndraSter_> damnit, AVR, Y U NO internal interrupts!
[16:03:20] <inkjetunito> ?
[16:04:51] <OndraSter_> oh well, callbacks will have to do
[16:05:01] <specing> OndraSter_: what do you need internal interrupts for? just call a predefined address
[16:05:37] <OndraSter_> inkjetunito, I want to set up that when interrupt from ethernet happens, I will launch small ISR routine which will set up DMA, bring the ethernet from the eth chip to the MCU and exit the ISR. After the transmission finishes it would fire up internal ISR
[16:05:42] <OndraSter_> it will call some callback instead
[16:06:34] <specing> OndraSter_: don't you have a DMA complete interrupt?
[16:06:50] <OndraSter_> I do
[16:06:57] <specing> so?
[16:07:00] <OndraSter_> but I have got only 4 DMA channels :P
[16:07:07] <OndraSter_> and I want to be able to point to any function
[16:07:14] <OndraSter_> thus callback it is
[16:07:45] <OndraSter_> *bring the packet from the eth chip*
