#avr | Logs for 2012-10-26

Back
[02:46:10] <jadew> anyone with access to a 1-wire chip that supports overdrive and a logic analyzer or a scope that can dump data in text format?
[03:00:10] <nickoe> What would the smart workflow be when having to read three UARTs whre one is a NMEA GPS stream, and the other two small command bytes (2 to 20 bytes)?
[03:03:59] <tld> Depends on a lot of things, like which hardware, etc.
[03:04:17] <tld> Are you using something with three uarts? Are you multiplexing using one? softserial?
[03:04:38] <nickoe> tld, using atmega2560 with its hardware uarts
[03:05:05] <nickoe> so no softserial and no multiplexing
[03:05:13] <nickoe> just directly connected
[03:06:53] <tld> Short read-loops, just pulling in the data, setting bits and buffers, then process from main loop?
[03:06:57] <tld> as workflow I mean?
[03:08:43] <OndraSter> what do you do with the data?
[03:10:44] <nickoe> hmm, yes ooh yeah. The GPS data is actually kind of being forwarded completly to one of the other uarts and send only position data via the last
[03:13:21] <nickoe> so basically, I need to recieve the NMEA sentences and then forward the to antoher port as fast as possible and in the mean time send some small packets to the third UART while also listening a bit on that one together with listeningen ont he one I send NMEA on
[03:13:46] <tld> small event-handlers then.
[03:13:59] <tld> do as little as possible on interrupt or polling, the rest in main event loop.
[03:14:20] <tld> could even just bit-set.
[03:14:38] <tld> set a bit from an interrupt-handler, that you need to read from a serial, then do the reading in main.
[03:14:39] <jadew> if the target uart is at least as fast as the gps one, just send them like UDR0 = UDR1, in the interrupt
[03:14:59] <jadew> that can be made into an even faster interrupt if you do it in asm
[03:15:05] <jadew> then you only have to deal with the 3rd one
[03:15:22] <RikusW> bit set can be replaced with polling UART status register directly...
[03:15:39] <RikusW> jadew: good idea
[03:18:08] <nickoe> hmm, okay
[03:18:22] <nickoe> I will work on it
[03:25:22] <RikusW> if the output and input serial ports are on the same speed you could connect the GPS tx to both rx lines instead
[03:30:46] <RikusW> sbas, waas, egnos, msas,gagan.... sounds like todler talk to me :-P its actually DGPS acronyms
[04:26:17] <Roklobsta> to read a whiole NMEA string takes about 100ms at 4800bps. Turn off everything except GPZDA and GPRMC as the rest is pretty much a waste.
[04:29:01] <Roklobsta> sometimes the default nema output strings bunch up and put over a second between subsquent RMC messages.
[04:29:24] <Roklobsta> I have torn my hair out over NMEA before. stupid system. someone should settle on fast binary
[04:30:18] <OndraSter> hehe
[04:30:21] <OndraSter> sprintf yo!
[04:30:22] <OndraSter> err
[04:30:23] <OndraSter> sscanf
[04:32:20] <RikusW> Roklobsta: Globaltop offers binary mode for PA6H GPS's
[04:34:41] <RikusW> Roklobsta: there is a GGA and VTG string too
[04:35:42] <Roklobsta> piss them off. all you need for time and location in RMC. And most good gps's make sure RMC always comes out after the PPS pulse. Some say the ZDA message reliably dos this.
[04:35:43] <RLa> why lot of avr tutorials fail to mention what chip they are using
[04:35:50] <Roklobsta> AVR is AVR
[04:36:23] <RLa> oh you say all registers in different chips have all the same layout?
[04:36:51] <RikusW> mostly
[04:37:17] <RLa> i'm trying to find tutorial for dual usart chips, and tutorials for single-usart ones are useless
[04:37:32] <RikusW> read the datasheet
[04:37:39] <Kevin`> the uart operates the same, the names are just different
[04:37:49] <RikusW> you'll only have to change some register names to use the second one
[04:37:49] <Kevin`> you should have the datasheet open whenever you are coding
[04:37:50] <RLa> yeah, found it much less hassle than tutorials
[04:37:52] <Roklobsta> anyway, i have discovered NMEA weirdness in the past and got a tacit admission from a chipset manufacturer that they fucked up their firmware
[04:38:03] <RikusW> RLa: for example ATmega162
[04:38:47] <RLa> of course i have datasheet open, how would i solder bread board otherwise
[04:39:06] <RikusW> solder bread board ?!!
[04:39:32] <RLa> well, the one with tiny solder pads and lot of holes
[04:39:36] <Richard_Cavell> You can never be too safe
[04:41:00] <jadew> man... this broken raid is so slow, it would be faster to download all the data from the internet
[04:41:48] <Roklobsta> broken how so?
[04:41:55] <RikusW> RLa: isn't that protoboard / veroboard ?
[04:42:24] <jadew> don't know, I get no errors or anything, it just hangs for a bit when I'm accessing things that got written to the disk after I installed windows 7
[04:42:55] <jadew> seems like a driver bug that screws up the raid somehow
[04:43:03] <RikusW> augh
[04:43:15] <RLa> RikusW, hm, maybe it is
[04:43:40] <RLa> catalog just calls it prototype board
[04:44:11] <RLa> i do not like to use the one with solderless jumper wires
[04:44:14] <jadew> I used them several times too, hate them
[04:44:24] <RLa> loose wire is the last thing i want to debug
[04:44:25] <jadew> it's so much easier to use a bread board
[04:44:48] <RLa> i can create real pcb's quite fast too
[04:44:58] <jadew> RLa, it's a lot easier to screw up on the prototype boards
[04:48:07] <RLa> how the heck can usart buffer shared for both sending and receiving?
[04:48:28] <RLa> the UDR register
[04:52:54] <Richard_Cavell> Am I right in thinking that because outputs don't have a pull-down resistor, I need to provide my own pull-down resistor if 0 volts = off ? I'm sending the output of a pin directly to a 2700 ohm resistor then to the base of a BC 548 transistor
[04:53:01] <Roklobsta> jadew: what raid controller?
[04:53:18] <jadew> it's a software raid, so whatever is on my mb
[04:53:27] <jadew> amd chipset
[04:53:35] <Roklobsta> arse
[04:54:06] <Roklobsta> use whatever raid diags in the bios or utility
[04:54:39] <RLa> aren't outputs totem pole?
[04:55:23] <RikusW> Richard_Cavell: should work just fine without a pulldown
[04:55:35] <Richard_Cavell> RikusW: So what pulls it down?
[04:55:41] <RikusW> nothing
[04:55:50] <RikusW> no need to
[04:55:56] <Richard_Cavell> If the output has been high, and then I turn it 'off', what drains the voltage from the pin?
[04:56:07] <RikusW> the transistor base
[04:56:23] <RikusW> err and the low part of the totem pole in the AVR
[04:56:34] <Richard_Cavell> I don't know what that means
[04:56:41] <karlp> it means the avr can drive both low and high
[04:56:45] <RLa> wait, they are not totem pole
[04:56:47] <RikusW> unless you set the pin to input, in which case only the transisotor base
[04:56:58] <karlp> so for outputs, you don't need pulldowns/pullups
[04:57:08] <RikusW> only for inputs
[04:57:12] <RLa> datasheet on 324 does not show them being totem pole
[04:57:23] <RikusW> it is
[04:57:43] <RikusW> Richard_Cavell: wikipedia -> totem pole output
[04:58:06] <RLa> RikusW, and if mosfet is used instead of bjt then current won't drain and it stays on
[04:59:49] <RLa> i would also add base resistor when using bjt, to limit avr's output current
[05:00:05] <Richard_Cavell> RLa: Yes well I'm using a 2700 ohm resistor
[05:00:45] <RLa> Richard_Cavell, i thought they are but seems like outputs are not totem pole, so you need pulldown resistor too
[05:01:21] <RLa> datasheet shows there is pullup transistor only in the avr
[05:01:49] <Richard_Cavell> RLa: So do I need a pulldown resistor to drain the base?
[05:02:12] <RLa> yes
[05:02:16] <karlp> is the 324 datasheet you looked at some archaic part?
[05:02:35] <RLa> hm
[05:03:55] <RikusW> no its new
[05:04:21] <RikusW> RLa: it seems you're confusing totem pole with pullup/pulldown resistors ?
[05:04:48] <RLa> i think not
[05:04:54] <RikusW> if the IO pin is output it will be driven high/low via transistors
[05:05:10] <RLa> i'm looking at figure 14
[05:05:23] <RLa> I/O pin equivalent schematic
[05:05:36] <RikusW> and will work with a mosfet with IOpin -> 2700k -> gate
[05:06:42] <RLa> hm
[05:06:54] <RLa> "Each output buffer has symmetrical drive characteristics with both high sink and source capability."
[05:07:50] <RLa> ah, that's the pull-up enable transistor in the figure
[05:08:02] <RLa> not the output transistor
[05:13:40] <RLa> Richard_Cavell, sorry for confusion
[05:15:06] <Richard_Cavell> so what's the answer to my question? Do I need a pulldown when I drive the pin low in order to turn the base of the transistor off?
[05:15:11] <karlp> no.
[05:15:22] <karlp> outputs do what you expect.
[05:42:27] <RLa> nice, i can finally communicate with my avr from pc
[05:44:27] <jadew> what's he saying?
[05:45:04] <RLa> it increases sent char by one :)
[05:45:20] <jadew> :)
[05:46:59] <RikusW> RLa: same idea as me
[05:47:12] <RikusW> accidental short could create a loopback...
[05:47:20] <RikusW> but won't add 1 to the char
[05:49:15] <RLa> true
[05:50:14] <specing> unless the max232 is haunted
[05:50:22] <RLa> i also finished my standalone programmer: http://imgur.com/gEmrV
[05:50:44] <specing> ugly!
[05:51:01] <jadew> I like it, but it's kinda dangerous to power it from the mains
[05:51:08] <jadew> what chip is that? I want one too
[05:51:20] <jadew> ah... crap already issued my order :(
[05:51:25] <RLa> well, aren't most things powered from mains?
[05:51:30] <jadew> I wanted a chip with many pins
[05:51:37] <RLa> it's atmega324
[05:51:56] <jadew> RLa, yeah... but not a good idea to have the mains at your fingertips :)
[05:52:01] <Richard_Cavell> I just bought some atmega1284s
[05:52:03] <Richard_Cavell> they're big
[05:52:15] <RLa> jadew, mains are well insulated
[05:52:33] <RLa> jadew, those mains wires have double insulation
[05:53:00] <jadew> you know better, I prefer to use power sources from old electronics
[05:53:17] <jadew> and I just regulate whatever I get from them
[05:53:47] <RLa> the only problem is when mains come off the screw socket there, that's why i fixed the mains cord to the base plate with cable ties
[05:54:05] <RLa> because i have been burned by that once
[05:54:09] <RLa> or rather shocked
[05:54:25] <jadew> I've got electrocuted many times as a kid, playing with transformers and stuff
[05:54:29] <jadew> now I just don't
[05:55:29] <RLa> the last time i got shocked was when i cut the GROUND wire for the ceiling lamp
[05:55:58] <RLa> obviously something else's return was running through the same ground
[05:56:31] <jadew> or you cut the phase :P
[05:56:38] <RLa> nope :)
[05:56:49] <RLa> i measured the wires with the indicator
[05:57:04] <RLa> cutting the return is actually very dangerous
[05:57:24] <RLa> if some big inductive load was running through it
[05:58:03] <jadew> and you used like... an unisolated... what's that called (the thing that cuts wires)
[05:58:28] <RLa> wire cutters
[05:58:50] <karlp> RLa: what does that board even do?
[05:58:58] <RLa> no, it was isolated but i touched the unisolated part a bit :)
[05:58:59] <jadew> it's a programmer
[05:59:15] <karlp> what, standalone?
[05:59:15] <RLa> karlp, it's the simplest dasa programmer
[05:59:30] <RLa> yes, meaning no isp cable
[05:59:38] <jadew> tbh, I like the way it looks, my ghetto programmer looked a lot worse
[05:59:44] <karlp> what's wrong with putting isp headers in your project?
[06:00:02] <RLa> pcb routing
[06:00:14] <jadew> ah... you always want ISP headers in your projects
[06:00:18] <RLa> otherwise nothing, i will add isp to my next programmer
[06:00:21] <jadew> no matter the pain you have to go trough
[06:00:22] <Roklobsta> nothing wrong with that
[06:00:24] <karlp> you clearly don't care about spce if you're using a monster pdip like that.
[06:00:38] <RLa> space is ok, routing it not
[06:01:04] <jadew> RLa, you should build one with ISP headers, you might consider building a USB based one
[06:01:14] <RLa> jadew, yes
[06:01:14] <jadew> so you get rid of the big transformer as well
[06:01:38] <RLa> dasa does not always work at all, sometimes it gets errors
[06:01:45] <RLa> and verification fails
[06:01:57] <RLa> it's more like an hack anyway
[06:02:07] <RLa> bitbanging isp though rs 232
[06:02:11] <jadew> I built one of these: http://www.ladyada.net/make/usbtinyisp/index.html
[06:02:15] <jadew> and been using it ever since
[06:02:28] <RLa> yes, saw the same schematics
[06:04:09] <RLa> but you need some sort of bootstrap programmer to program the chip it uses
[06:04:24] <jadew> well, you have one now, don't you?
[06:04:34] <RLa> yes i do :)
[06:05:52] <RLa> anyway, currently it's enough for doing some more experiments
[06:06:55] <jadew> you should build one tho, with an ISP socket
[06:07:01] <jadew> and then build yourself some target boards
[06:07:43] <RLa> yes
[06:08:27] <RLa> anyway, will now try to read mcp9700 though adc and serial
[06:15:54] <jadew> this is pretty much my development kit: http://dumb.ro/files/devkit.jpg
[06:16:30] <jadew> in the top left corner is the programmer
[06:17:05] <jadew> next to it, my bus master (some sort of bus pirate), next to it a LCD socket for quick testing
[06:17:55] <jadew> on the bottom, the 3 big boards are target boards, the first 2 from the left are for attiny and the one on the right is for atmega, the small board on the right is the USB interface (the electronic part before it goes into the MCU)
[06:18:22] <karlp> what's the edge connector for? top right?
[06:18:36] <jadew> for LCD
[06:18:40] <jadew> I just push them in
[06:18:46] <karlp> ahh, gotcha
[06:18:57] <RLa> that's nice idea for the lcd connector
[06:19:05] <jadew> very useful
[06:19:43] <jadew> in the past I was using the boards on the top-left for that, but was a PITA to connect the pads to the lcd with aligator clips
[06:20:40] <RLa> what are those 2 with smd chips on the bottom left?
[06:20:55] <jadew> just SMD to dip converters
[06:21:06] <jadew> they currently have an eeprom and a buffer on them
[06:21:18] <jadew> it's so I can use them on the breadboard
[06:21:25] <jadew> I have to build more, for different packages
[06:23:25] <RLa> how is that rectangular socket with 2 lines called?
[06:23:42] <jadew> which one?
[06:23:57] <jadew> the white one?
[06:24:09] <RLa> the black ones
[06:24:20] <jadew> don't know... dip sockets?
[06:24:28] <Horologium> 2x5 male header, shrouded.
[06:24:46] <jadew> ah, not the ones for the chip?
[06:24:55] <jadew> the one for ISP?
[06:24:59] <jadew> those are IDC headers IIRC
[06:25:00] <Horologium> the white one looks like a cut down pci socket.
[06:25:10] <jadew> it is :)
[06:25:36] <RLa> idc plugs use ribbon cable and can be assembled without expensive tools?
[06:25:47] <jadew> yep
[06:25:49] <Horologium> interesting idea for the LCD connect too. I have pins soldered in mine and use a floppy cable to connect to them.
[06:25:58] <Horologium> RLa, kinda.
[06:26:09] <jadew> Horologium, hah, nice
[06:26:22] <Horologium> I use channel lock pliers to press IDC cable connectors on...
[06:26:34] <Horologium> just work them down both ends alternating till I get them tight.
[06:26:35] <RLa> i'm currently using 2.54mm molex connectors and they suck a bit
[06:27:00] <Horologium> you can also, depending on the connector, just use a bench vise to crimp down IDC connectors.
[06:28:37] <Horologium> jadew, for those who use serial and parallel(I know nobody uses these anymore) you can use a floppy cable to connect to the PC. just remove the two floppy connectors then add a 9pin and 25 pin DSUB IDC connector to the end.
[06:29:08] <Horologium> then you add some long header pins on the PC end of the cable, stuck in the plug and bent so they fit to a breadboard.
[06:30:02] <Horologium> I also use a lot of 40 pin IDE cables for board interconnects, often just using one row of pins. Wasteful but they are cheap/free.
[06:30:45] <jadew> nice, I'm just going with jumper wires, but I can see how doing it with IDE cables could help
[06:31:25] <Horologium> I use a lot of jumpers too.
[06:31:51] <Horologium> sometimes even sticking them in the end of the IDE cable and jumping to the breadboard.
[06:33:43] <Horologium> also did a stacked "BUS" system once...took several IDE cables and made one by moving the connectors so I had 8 of them on one cable more or less evenly spaced.
[06:41:00] <Roklobsta> BBT isn't funny
[06:41:25] <jadew> I love it
[06:41:32] <jadew> almost as much as I love family guy
[06:41:34] <jadew> if not more
[06:43:51] <Roklobsta> nyet funny at all
[06:44:33] <hackvana> BBT is a show for normal people, so normal people have someone to make fun of, and feel "normal".
[06:45:38] <jadew> lol, what?
[06:48:18] <RikusW> BBT is normal ?!
[06:50:31] <jadew> I found out about the show when it was already in the 3rd season or so, that's when I realized that a guy I used to know was acting sort of like sheldon (most likely because he tought he's smart and he should make it obvious by acting like a retard)
[06:51:19] <jadew> he was really dumb tho, altho he was studying physics I ended up having a few arguments with him (in which I was right, since I double checked when I came home)
[06:52:06] <jadew> kinda stupid for a phyisics guy to argue with someone with no college and fail, especially since we were arguing in his field (nuclear physics)
[06:52:24] <jadew> he was under the impression that a proton has 5 quarks while I clearly knew it had 3
[06:52:32] <RikusW> heh
[06:52:41] <jadew> he was brining up all this weird topics
[06:52:47] <Roklobsta> 5 quarks
[06:53:20] <Roklobsta> someone tell Gell-Mann
[06:53:29] <jadew> Roklobsta, what about them?
[06:54:24] <Richard_Cavell> Guys, in your experience, how difficult is it to fry an AVR chip? Today I accidentally shorted Vcc and GND on a mega328p and my voltage regulator blew up. Now my AVR's playing up.
[06:54:46] <jadew> Richard_Cavell, kinda difficult
[06:54:55] <jadew> and shorting the vcc and gnd shouldn't affect the avr
[06:55:21] <jadew> maybe other components got blew up, that were directly in the path of the current
[06:55:30] <Tom_itx> the regulator could have spiked though when it happened causing it to fail
[06:56:19] <Richard_Cavell> well I definitely blew up the regulator
[06:56:24] <Richard_Cavell> people are telling me you can't do it, but I did it
[06:56:52] <Tom_itx> you've done a few things others haven't done
[06:58:01] <Richard_Cavell> that's what happens when you're cutting edge
[07:03:28] <specing> lol you people with regulators
[07:03:44] <specing> I use a bench adjustable power supply
[07:03:53] <specing> 5kg machine :)
[07:04:43] <jadew> mine is like 200 grams :P doesn't do much tho
[07:05:08] <Richard_Cavell> can you dial up the voltage you want?
[07:05:12] <specing> mine is 0-30V 0-3A + 3-6V 2A
[07:05:18] <Horologium> just put a diode and rheostat in line with mains!
[07:05:24] <specing> yes, I can limit voltage and current
[07:05:39] <Richard_Cavell> specing: sounds like a neat toy
[07:06:02] <Richard_Cavell> jadew: Seriously it's difficult to blow up an AVR? Cos if not I've got a few days ahead of me debugging this damn circuit with a multimeter
[07:06:07] <jadew> mine is 0-10V, 0-1A
[07:06:24] <jadew> Richard_Cavell, yeah, it's pretty hard
[07:06:30] <RLa> Richard_Cavell, what regulator is was?
[07:06:43] <RLa> i think lm7805 is short-proof
[07:06:49] <Horologium> there is a school near here that has a REAL bench supply. They have a central power controller with feeds out to the lab benches. can jumper AC or DC to the benches, adjustable from 0 to 110V on either AC or DC...no current limiting though.
[07:07:34] <jadew> I haven't found myself needing more than 5 volts so far
[07:07:35] <Horologium> the power supply controller is probably as old as I am.
[07:07:40] <Richard_Cavell> RLa: It was a L7805
[07:07:41] <jadew> but then again, I'm not doing a lot of stuff either
[07:07:51] <Richard_Cavell> RLa: I definitely destroyed it electrically though
[07:07:57] <Horologium> jadew, I regularly need 5V, 3.3V, 12V, and 24V here.
[07:08:11] <RLa> Richard_Cavell, datasheet says it has overcurrent protection
[07:08:18] <Horologium> and I've made 7805 regulators go poof and release the blue smoke in the past.
[07:08:20] <Richard_Cavell> RLa: Richard says it blew up
[07:08:27] <RLa> hm, maybe it does not then
[07:08:34] <Richard_Cavell> well maybe it does
[07:08:38] <Richard_Cavell> but I found a way to beat it
[07:08:47] <Horologium> overcurrent protection is not quite the same as short protection.
[07:09:05] <Horologium> kinda like surge supression is not quite the same as lightning protection.
[07:09:14] <Horologium> hit it hard and fast enough and things can go poof.
[07:09:55] <Horologium> electrolytic caps are fun to do that to. hit a 6V 4800uF cap with mains and watch it pop.
[07:10:04] <RLa> you can make quite easy short circuit and overcurrent protection with a scr, a resistor and and a transistor
[07:10:08] <jadew> Horologium, what's the difference? I'm really curious because I want to build another power supply and add some more things, my current one doesn't have any sort of short protection
[07:10:24] <Horologium> so put a fuse in line after the regulator.
[07:10:43] <jadew> I have a fuse
[07:10:43] <Horologium> fast blow .5A fuse or something somewhat under the rating of the regulator.
[07:10:55] <RLa> also, you can use resistor for limiting current
[07:11:07] <jadew> RLa, not in a power supply
[07:11:07] <RLa> good for low-power stuff
[07:11:25] <jadew> you don't really want resistence on the output
[07:11:35] <RLa> before the regulator
[07:12:04] <Horologium> 10 ohm resistor in line should limit current but not cut into functionality.
[07:12:24] <jadew> the thing is, my power source limits current actively
[07:12:26] <Horologium> disclaimer: I am not a power supply engineer.
[07:12:32] <jadew> so I'm not sure if I should have short protection
[07:12:34] <RLa> yes, with 12V dc that would limit current to 1.2A
[07:12:40] <jadew> I mean... if it's supposed to put out 100mA
[07:12:43] <jadew> and it gets shorted
[07:12:48] <jadew> shouldn't it put out 100mA?
[07:12:57] <Horologium> what regulator jadew ?
[07:13:03] <jadew> I built it myself
[07:13:20] <Horologium> if it is a 7805, that current rating in the datasheet means max current before it goes poof.
[07:13:29] <RLa> transformers can put out way more current than designed for
[07:13:32] <jadew> no, I built this thing myself
[07:13:35] <RLa> up to 10x more
[07:13:37] <Horologium> if it is a true current limiting regulator then, sure.
[07:13:43] <jadew> if it senses the current goes above the set current limit, it will limit current
[07:13:47] <Horologium> you hit the max current draw and the voltage just drops off.
[07:14:08] <jadew> exactly, but that's what should happen right?
[07:14:10] <Horologium> anyhow, gotta run, copiers to destroy,,err,,fix.
[07:14:22] <RLa> Horologium, does it blow from fusing or overtemp when current > max current?
[07:14:22] <jadew> there's no special case for true short and high power drawn?
[07:14:35] <RLa> i guess it depends what power source can output
[07:15:49] <RLa> also, weak supply with huge caps (> 10mF) can fuse stuff very well
[07:16:12] <RikusW> jadew: I used a self-resetting fuse for 1.5A
[07:16:41] <jadew> I didn't know about self resetting fuses till long after I made that thing
[07:17:02] <jadew> I'm gonna use one in the next power source I'm gonna build, had some ideas on how to improve it
[07:17:10] <jadew> and I often feel like I need two power sources
[07:17:35] <RLa> how fast those fuses are?
[07:17:50] <RikusW> it needs to heat up a bit...
[07:18:01] <RikusW> jadew: you can easily add it afterwards
[07:18:04] <jadew> well, I suspect they blow up faster than your other components
[07:18:25] <RLa> hm, semiconductors tend to go fastest :/
[07:18:30] <jadew> RikusW, I know and probably will, but for now I need more incentive to start working on the new one :P
[07:18:48] <RikusW> jadew: when it cools again, all is back to normal
[07:19:16] <jadew> speaking of power sources, is 8mV of noise ok on the output?
[07:19:38] <jadew> I think I'm getting that noise because I'm not shielding anything in there
[07:19:38] <RLa> oh, just got adc readings from my avr
[07:19:53] <RLa> now gotta find out how to decode them :)
[07:21:09] <jadew> ah... nvm, it seems I get 8mV of noise with my scope probe connected to its own ground
[07:21:35] <jadew> it just occured to me to test that
[07:24:03] <jadew> hmm, actually I get about 10mV of noise
[07:24:25] <jadew> I think a lot of it is ambiental tho
[07:32:18] <RLa> nice, managed to decode data from my avr
[07:32:47] <RLa> want something noisy :) floating adc inputs
[07:37:34] <RLa> when floating, they read 5V * 360/1023
[08:11:14] <RLa> got mcp9700 and temp measuring working
[08:11:40] <RLa> it's way cheaper than lm35
[08:19:55] <megal0maniac> http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=3001
[08:20:09] <megal0maniac> Microcontroller power solution :)
[08:20:39] <megal0maniac> Nice, clean 5V off 10Whr battery
[08:21:12] <AR__> if you need 10Whr battery for your uC you are doing something wrong
[08:21:46] <megal0maniac> AR__: With peripherals (nrf24l01+ for example)
[08:21:58] <AR__> i suppose
[08:22:03] <megal0maniac> Even so, 10Whr would last just about forever
[08:22:08] <AR__> like a robot or something maybe
[08:22:14] <megal0maniac> Heh :)
[08:22:48] <megal0maniac> No quite. But something simple could probably run for two weeks plus. And it's nicely packaged, usual protection circuitry etc
[08:22:58] <megal0maniac> Easy drop-in solution
[08:23:52] <AR__> or you could just get any other battery
[08:24:16] <AR__> i just use a car battery
[08:24:50] <megal0maniac> It's more a li-pro alternative than a car battery alternative :P
[08:25:00] <megal0maniac> i.e. sealed lead acid
[08:25:23] <AR__> i just like car batteries sorry
[08:25:53] <megal0maniac> AR__: That's okay ;) I use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery with a 7805 circuit
[08:26:32] <megal0maniac> Think of this as a UPS for USB, except it lasts for ages
[08:27:06] <megal0maniac> All protection and filtering and charging circuit included
[08:27:40] <AR__> what protection and filtering and charging do you think exists?
[08:27:47] <karlp> you mean, like an old phone?
[08:27:48] <AR__> i mean yeah, charging
[08:27:49] <megal0maniac> Not much :)
[08:27:54] <AR__> but protection and filtering?
[08:27:58] <AR__> it's just a battery
[08:28:01] <megal0maniac> Okay maybe not filtering...
[08:28:32] <megal0maniac> I suppose the same kind of stuff you get under the yellow tape on li-pro
[08:28:47] <AR__> pretty much nothing :P
[08:28:55] <megal0maniac> Meh :)
[08:28:55] <AR__> just the battery
[08:30:01] <megal0maniac> A client bought one to use as it's intended (ipod, phone etc) but I realised that it would make a pretty nifty power supply
[08:30:15] <megal0maniac> For AVR stuff
[09:23:29] <Richard_Cavell> Okay guys, I've managed to get epoxy resin on my ISP header and now ISP won't work
[09:23:49] <Richard_Cavell> My multimeter probes are detecting some kind of insulation around the pins, which is intermittent
[09:23:53] <Richard_Cavell> How do I get the epoxy off?
[09:24:00] <Kevin`> knife?
[09:24:07] <Richard_Cavell> It's so thin that I can't see it
[09:24:11] <Richard_Cavell> I can only detect it with DMM
[09:28:51] <Kevin`> so scrape everywhere
[09:29:02] <Kevin`> or file/sandpaper
[09:30:01] <Richard_Cavell> sandpaper is a good idea
[09:32:40] <Richard_Cavell> Yeah I think sandpaper's the go
[09:32:42] <Richard_Cavell> thx
[09:46:23] <jadew> speaking of which, why is everyone so eager to get rid of excess flux from their PCBs?
[09:46:54] <jadew> is there a downside to leaving it there?
[09:47:23] <jadew> I'd think it would actually prevent oxidation if it was left there
[09:50:41] <OSterver> jadew, it is some nasty shit
[09:51:08] <jadew> why?
[09:51:13] <OSterver> some acids
[09:52:06] <jadew> so it's bad for the pcb?
[09:52:10] <OSterver> beats me
[09:52:17] <jadew> or out of concern for yourself?
[09:52:19] <RLa> i hate it that you can't see shorts behind excess flux
[09:52:40] <RLa> use ethanol to clear the pcb
[09:52:46] <jadew> RLa, well, if you had enough flux in the first place, you wouldn't have a short :P
[09:53:33] <RLa> i use small brush and ethanol
[09:53:52] <jadew> I never clean it off, I guess I should
[09:53:57] <RLa> with rosin flux it gets pcb covered with small layer of it
[09:54:08] <RLa> which keeps oxidizing away
[09:54:25] <RLa> jadew, you should try :)
[09:55:05] <RLa> any kind of alcohol should work if you do not want to waste ethanol
[09:55:26] <jadew> I don't know what ethanol is
[09:55:37] <jadew> but I'm sure my g/f can get her hands on some
[09:56:59] <OSterver> i use ipa
[09:57:13] <Tom_itx> iso is what you want
[09:57:37] <Tom_itx> iso ipa same thing
[09:57:41] <OSterver> aye
[09:58:01] <jadew> is that short for something?
[09:58:06] <OSterver> isopropyl alcohol
[09:58:12] <jadew> I have that
[09:58:13] <OSterver> cost me like $10 delivered for 1l bottle
[09:58:20] <Tom_itx> 99.9999% pure
[09:58:31] <Tom_itx> it costs like $1 at the drug store
[09:58:36] <OSterver> I have got only 99.5%
[09:58:37] <OSterver> :(
[09:58:51] <Tom_itx> i haven't looked, i just made that up
[09:59:06] <OSterver> $1? :o
[09:59:07] <OSterver> not here
[09:59:10] <Tom_itx> but the other has oil in it that you don't want
[10:03:32] <karlp> some countries don't sell iso as readily as others tom :)
[10:04:38] <OSterver> I had to buy it online
[10:04:48] <OSterver> all other pharmacies/drugstores told me "that is legal to be sold?!"
[10:05:00] <jacekowski> i buy it in local electronic shop
[10:05:02] <jadew> that's weird
[10:05:04] <jacekowski> wholesaler
[10:05:19] <OSterver> heh
[10:05:25] <OSterver> local electronic shops end at NaOH
[10:05:25] <jadew> yeah, I got it from the electronics store as well, but I'm sure I could get it from the pharmacy too
[10:05:27] <RLa> isn't ethanol way easier to obtain?
[10:05:28] <OSterver> 20g/$1 lol
[10:05:28] <jacekowski> 400ml for £5
[10:05:32] <OSterver> it is RLa
[10:05:38] <OSterver> at least here :P
[10:05:43] <jacekowski> £9 for 1l tin
[10:05:57] <jacekowski> RLa?
[10:06:47] <RLa> also, i have some stuff here, from local construction shop, has bad smell but works too
[10:06:55] <RLa> no contents on label tho
[10:08:31] <RLa> denatured alcohol
[10:09:08] <OSterver> I have got denatured petrol
[10:09:09] <OSterver> or something
[10:10:05] <RLa> i have that stuff too
[10:10:14] <RLa> can be used for cleaning
[10:10:18] <OSterver> yep
[10:10:26] <RLa> i use that for cleaning my laptop
[10:16:50] <karlp> NaOH is way mroe dangerous in mind, but they sell that in big tins super cheap too
[10:17:33] <OndraSter> I found cleaner here
[10:17:36] <OndraSter> what do you call it...
[10:17:40] <OndraSter> drain cleaner
[10:17:48] <OndraSter> costs like $2 for 1kg bottle :P
[10:19:19] <RLa> that's what schoolkids make bombs with?
[10:19:39] <RLa> i think that would clean copper off the pcb too :P
[10:20:08] <OndraSter> not all of it
[10:20:19] <OndraSter> only the undeveloped photoresist one :P
[10:20:21] <OndraSter> below*
[10:20:35] <OndraSter> well
[10:20:36] <OndraSter> all of it
[10:20:40] <OndraSter> but it is protected by photoresist*
[10:20:44] <OndraSter> the one you want to keep
[10:21:01] <RLa> hm, i think some guys in #electronics recommended that for etching
[10:21:13] <OndraSter> I do too
[10:21:14] <RLa> anyway, going to sleep
[10:21:16] <OndraSter> bb
[10:21:32] <RLa> will keep working on my avr tomorrow :)
[10:21:50] <hackvana> I think it's hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide.
[10:22:07] <OndraSter> speak only using its signs, I don't remember their full names
[10:22:09] <OndraSter> :D
[10:22:17] <OndraSter> and it's been a loooooooong time since I had any chemistry at school
[10:22:30] <hackvana> https://www.google.com/search?q=pcb+etching+acid
[10:22:38] <hackvana> HCl and H2O2
[10:22:45] <OndraSter> oh, that is the other option
[10:22:53] <OndraSter> I use NaOH and then FeCl
[10:23:00] <hackvana> Why use both?
[10:23:09] <OndraSter> NaOH to get rid of undeveloped photoresist
[10:23:12] <OndraSter> FeCl to etc
[10:23:12] <OndraSter> h
[10:23:39] <Tom_itx> C4 would also get rid of it
[10:23:55] <OndraSter> heh
[10:24:02] <OndraSter> I always make fun of PCBs
[10:24:04] <OndraSter> and point at C4
[10:24:25] <OndraSter> in PSUs it is the most fun because C4 is often in/near the input filtering stage and there are some big film caps there
[10:24:28] <hackvana> Just scrolling back...
[10:24:49] <hackvana> The ideal thing for cleaning off photoresist is acetone
[10:25:06] <OndraSter> all of it or undeveloped one?
[10:25:08] <hackvana> aka nail polish remover
[10:25:15] <hackvana> Oh, all of it.
[10:25:24] <OndraSter> that would be counter productive :P
[10:25:48] <hackvana> Unless you've finished etching your board. But now that I look, I see that you did see undeveloped
[10:26:00] <hackvana> s/see/say/
[10:26:16] <hackvana> You mean developer? It washes away the exposed areas
[10:26:25] <OndraSter> yes
[10:26:26] <OndraSter> that
[10:26:35] <OndraSter> and I use acetone on the end to get rid of the remaining photoresist
[10:26:37] <OndraSter> after etching
[10:27:03] <hackvana> I did read what the developer was. It's actually a very common chemical
[10:27:20] <hackvana> Call me crazy, but the thing that's coming to mind is that it's the same chemical as those silica gel packets
[10:27:35] <OndraSter> heh
[10:27:45] <OndraSter> I like the repeated "DO NOT EAT"
[10:27:47] <OndraSter> on silica gel
[10:27:50] <OndraSter> it makes me want to do one thing
[10:27:51] <OndraSter> ...
[10:27:59] <OndraSter> also, why one needs kids: http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/431659_10152190426760207_1475659456_n.jpg
[10:30:00] <OndraSterver> bloody internet
[10:30:37] <Tom_itx> O
[10:30:39] <Tom_itx> o
[10:30:40] <Tom_itx> .
[10:31:46] <hackvana> Yeah, common developer: Sodium metasilicate
[10:33:44] <hackvana> http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=16675
[10:48:45] <hackvana> Cool article: http://livingnote.com/DIY/Etch.html
[10:58:38] <OndraSter_> setup packet: A1 21 00 00 00 00 07 00
[10:58:38] <OndraSter_> SETUP Type: Unknown
[10:58:41] <OndraSter_> what what
[10:58:48] <OndraSter_> USB docs go only upto number 12
[10:58:52] <OndraSter_> what the hell is 21? :P
[11:04:02] <OndraSter_> nvm it is already CDC stuff
[12:37:24] <jadew> this is so screwed up, same item costs 3euro + in europe while in the US it's $1.1
[12:37:53] <Amadiro> jadew, are you buying a single one, or for bulk?
[12:38:04] <jadew> just one
[12:38:12] <Amadiro> oh well
[12:38:33] <jadew> that's the price for one in both sides of the world tho
[12:43:10] <OndraSter> heh
[12:43:13] <OndraSter> what part?
[12:43:16] <OndraSter> I got used to that already :(
[12:43:39] <jadew> it's a 75Mhz crystal oscillator
[12:44:14] <jadew> basically, if I were to buy it in the US, I'd pay for the two things I need about $10
[12:44:25] <jadew> if I am to buy it in the EU, I have to pay $30
[12:44:28] <jadew> wtf is that?
[12:46:50] <jadew> also, I think farnell sucks
[12:46:57] <jadew> they have the most expensive shit around
[12:47:57] <Amadiro> jadew, yes, farnell is pretty much the most expensive supplier around -- but they do deliver fast.
[12:48:38] <jadew> that's BS, my regular supplier delivers in about 2 days
[12:48:43] <Amadiro> Although personally I've never used their same-day delivery or overnight-delivery service, I'm fine waiting for mouser or digikey
[12:48:44] <jadew> everything is fast nowdays
[12:49:09] <jadew> Amadiro, you're not from europe tho, right?
[12:49:15] <Amadiro> jadew, norway
[12:49:28] <jadew> and which digikey are you using?
[12:49:52] <Amadiro> jadew, ...there's more than one?
[12:50:30] <jadew> well, I don't know... if you're using it I would suspect they have an european branch that I didn't find
[12:50:46] <jadew> otherwise you'd have to pay $60 for less than $200 orders
[12:50:50] <Amadiro> jadew, well, you can set the language/currency to "norway" on their site
[12:51:14] <jadew> well, they had a setting for my country as well, but it simply pushed me on the USA site
[12:51:16] <Amadiro> but I normally order through our shipping/financial department, so I don't actually do the ordering/paying, I just tell them what I need...
[12:51:27] <Amadiro> and then it pops up in our lab a few days later
[12:51:40] <Amadiro> jadew, hm, strange
[12:51:42] <OndraSter> I found cool website - mausel.eu
[12:51:46] <OndraSter> czech+slovak reseller for mouser :P
[12:51:57] <Amadiro> jadew, they do redirect me to digikey.no
[12:52:07] <jadew> Amadiro, interresting
[12:52:12] <jadew> it means their site is just shit
[12:52:20] <jadew> I'm so pissed off
[12:52:33] <Amadiro> jadew, probably -- this seems to be a common theme in electronics suppliers and resellers
[12:52:38] <Amadiro> with TI pretty much taking the lead
[12:52:57] <jadew> OndraSter, nice one, thanks
[12:53:09] <Amadiro> Talking about TI, has anybody else gotten mails from TI about that payment for their stellaris hardware failed?
[12:53:12] <jadew> Amadiro, gonna try to use the .no version
[12:53:21] <Amadiro> They've failed like two times to charge me now, same thing with a friend in germany
[12:53:45] <OndraSter> jadew, well, you are in NO
[12:53:54] <OndraSter> I could resend you stuff because I will be ordering from mouser very soon :P
[12:54:07] <jadew> I'm in .ro
[12:54:10] <OndraSter> oh
[12:54:14] <jadew> Amadiro is in .no
[12:54:16] <OndraSter> I could do the same thing :P
[12:54:21] <jadew> yeah :P
[12:54:37] <jadew> thing is I want to find a damn supplier that's worthwhile
[12:54:38] <OndraSter> shipping cze -> anywhere for small packets is like 3 eur
[12:54:50] <OndraSter> registered of course
[12:54:52] <OndraSter> with tracking
[12:55:02] <jadew> nice
[12:55:11] <OndraSter> cze->cze costs the same :( :D
[12:55:38] <OndraSter> well
[12:55:39] <OndraSter> nearly the same
[12:55:41] <OndraSter> for the same size
[12:56:19] <Amadiro> jadew, just tried digikey.ro, if I search for anything, they redirect to .com... doesn't happen with .no. So yeah, looks like their page just sucks
[12:57:57] <jadew> I think I'm gonna order from the .no site
[12:58:03] <jadew> we'll see how that goes
[13:01:01] <jadew> Amadiro, they're still trying to charge me insane ammounts of money for the delivery
[13:01:10] <Amadiro> jadew, how much?
[13:01:24] <jadew> $60
[13:01:30] <Amadiro> just for shipping?
[13:01:34] <jadew> yeah
[13:01:38] <Amadiro> That's insane
[13:02:05] <jadew> and the total order costs $13
[13:02:11] <jadew> 1 chip and a crystal
[13:02:26] <Amadiro> jadew, maybe if you go over 20$ or so, they give you free shipping, some sellers seem to do that
[13:03:06] <jadew> Amadiro, they want me to buy in excess of $200 for that
[13:03:26] <jadew> let me see if they have a hakko fx 888 for 220
[13:03:31] <jadew> :D
[13:03:51] <jadew> they do not
[13:04:13] <OndraSter_> <OndraSter> digikey wants 40€ for shipping for orders <150€
[13:04:13] <OndraSter_> <OndraSter> at least to cze
[13:04:13] <OndraSter_> <OndraSter> same for mouser, but I am glad for mausel :P
[13:04:18] <OndraSter_> (before my internet went out)
[13:04:38] <jadew> ah ha, so it's not only happening to me
[13:04:58] <jadew> OndraSter_: http://www.tme.eu/en/
[13:05:04] <jadew> this is my normal supplier
[13:05:11] <jadew> they have decent prices
[13:05:24] <jadew> at least most of the time
[13:05:56] <jadew> and shipping is resonable
[13:06:04] <jadew> about $7 / shippment
[13:06:26] <jadew> actually $5
[13:06:49] <jadew> and it arrives in about 2 days
[13:06:49] <Amadiro> jadew, at least for me it looks like mouser gives free shipping for 100$ and up
[13:07:11] <jadew> Amadiro, yeah, I guess if you order in big quantities you don't have to worry about it
[13:07:38] <Amadiro> jadew, just wait until there's more stuff you need, I guess... or find some local electronics store that might have what you want
[13:07:40] <jadew> I did have a big order today, but they didn't have that chip and the crystal so I had to look for other suppliers
[13:07:55] <jadew> I placed two orders today :P
[13:08:01] <Amadiro> hm, too bad
[13:08:25] <Amadiro> I don't think I have a 75MHz one lying around either, I'd send it to you for free :)
[13:08:37] <jadew> hehe, thank you
[13:09:23] <Amadiro> 75's a bit of an odd value, I think we have 2, 4, 8, 16, 20, 50, 100, 200, 400 here or so.
[13:09:45] <OndraSter_> 75MHz is not that odd
[13:09:48] <jadew> yeah, it was hard to find, I checked all the electronics shops in my country as well
[13:09:53] <OndraSter_> but usually one uses few MHz xtals
[13:09:55] <OndraSter_> and PLLs them :)
[13:10:06] <OndraSter_> it is much easier
[13:10:07] <Amadiro> well, we have 80ies, anyway
[13:10:09] <Amadiro> but no 75s
[13:10:25] <OndraSter_> slower clock input = much less issues with extra capacitance, board layout, ..
[13:10:26] <jadew> yeah, found those
[13:10:40] <jadew> OndraSter_, I can't do that, it's for a frequency generator
[13:10:49] <OndraSter_> oh
[13:10:56] <jadew> so it's better if the clock input is close to perfect
[13:12:41] <jadew> kinda expensive... like, for 3 times the price I'm gonna pay for all the components, I could get a really nice function generator
[13:13:16] <jadew> with no compromises
[13:15:08] <Amadiro> I'ma have to brag here how awesome I am at soldering: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21559589/soldering/index.html
[13:15:27] <Amadiro> I was kinda surprised myself how well it turned out
[13:16:04] <jadew> that looks really nice
[13:16:13] <tmpvar> Amadiro, nice
[13:16:15] <Amadiro> (not that it really matters, of course, it's just for prototyping -- first version was just dead-bug...)
[13:17:55] <OndraSter_> not bad
[13:18:14] <OndraSter_> I just don't like the thing below it :)
[13:18:20] <OndraSter_> I wrote test from this stuff yesterday :D
[13:19:09] <Amadiro> looks like that's a topology book
[13:19:13] <Amadiro> my desk is a bit stuffed at the moment
[13:19:22] <Amadiro> components, papers and books everywhere
[13:19:33] <Amadiro> and empty beer bottles, of course.
[13:20:03] <OndraSter_> hehe
[13:20:04] <OndraSter_> BEER!
[13:20:18] <OndraSter_> what sucks is that I am home alone, I can turn volume pot to the right but MY INTERNET KEEPS CRASHING and I can not stream anything
[13:20:44] <OndraSter_> oh and also press the magic "loudness" button too!
[13:20:58] <OndraSter_> which ups the low frequencies by a bit :P
[13:21:34] <OndraSter_> I like my amplifier. Cost me $10 as "when last used it was working, but have not been powered in the past 5 years so I am selling it as not working"
[13:21:39] <OndraSter_> $10 incl. shipping :P
[13:21:43] <OndraSter_> vintage, from 1988 :P
[13:21:47] <OndraSter_> class A ftw.
[13:21:48] <jadew> hey, any idea if digital pots suffer from delays in rise time?
[13:21:56] <OndraSter_> digital pots = encoders?
[13:21:58] <jadew> or are they actually behaving like a real pot and there's no delay?
[13:22:13] <jadew> digital pot as in a real digital potentiometer, with resistence
[13:22:39] <OndraSter_> oh you mean the IC itself
[13:22:42] <jadew> yeah
[13:22:47] <OndraSter_> there will be surely some delay
[13:22:53] <OndraSter_> check datasheets
[13:23:23] <jadew> yeah, need to look into that, I wonder how they would behave in high frequency
[13:23:49] <OndraSter_> already checked -- high bw ones are not cheap
[13:23:57] <jadew> I want to use them both at the output, to control the gain of an opamp and at the input so I can attenuate the input signal (so I can go below the output of the freq gen)
[13:24:05] <OndraSter_> I presume you need not just fast response to the change AND the output bw
[13:24:23] <OndraSter_> they are usually in the kiloohms range
[13:24:32] <jadew> yeah
[13:24:42] <OndraSter_> I need something that can work with tens of MHz sine input
[13:24:55] <OndraSter_> without any black magic hackery there is no off the shelf part for that
[13:28:22] <jadew> yeah, it looks the ones I got have a 1Mhz bandwidth
[13:28:23] <jadew> sucks
[13:28:42] <OndraSter_> they have too high value
[13:28:49] <OndraSter_> you can do black magic and rise their bw
[13:28:56] <OndraSter_> I already checked many tutorials and ways :P
[13:29:03] <jadew> heh, how?
[13:29:53] <OndraSter_> don't remember
[13:29:57] <OndraSter_> like I said, black magic
[13:30:02] <OndraSter_> just like resistor 66M
[13:30:10] <OndraSter_> SMD resistor :P
[13:30:23] <jadew> I guess another option would be to use real pots
[13:30:52] <jadew> and read their value, then use that to display whatever that translates to, on the LCD
[13:31:00] <jadew> but I wanted to control everything digitally
[13:31:08] <OndraSter_> yeah
[13:31:11] <OndraSter_> good luck with that :P
[13:31:18] <OndraSter_> it can be done
[13:31:27] <OndraSter_> look at agilent or rigol :P
[13:31:36] <OndraSter_> they have got tens of GHz generators that can do anything
[13:31:48] <OndraSter_> what DDS is it using?
[13:31:58] <jadew> ad9834
[13:32:04] <OndraSter_> ah
[13:32:16] <OndraSter_> the one I wanted to use :_)
[13:32:26] <OndraSter_> and there is one more way
[13:32:36] <OndraSter_> you can control the output swing directly on the DDS
[13:32:41] <OndraSter_> and then use fixed opamp
[13:33:17] <OndraSter_> for square it is a bit hard though
[13:34:07] <jadew> I don't think you can control the output swing
[13:34:40] <jadew> I'm pretty sure it's 0.6v at the top
[13:34:43] <jadew> and that's it
[13:34:44] <OndraSter_> nope
[13:34:48] <OndraSter_> check the ds
[13:34:52] <OndraSter_> or wait
[13:34:54] <jadew> I did
[13:34:59] <OndraSter_> maybe I was actually changing the input
[13:35:01] <jadew> it doesn't give a minimum there
[13:35:02] <OndraSter_> for the swing
[13:36:25] <OndraSter_> let me check my schematics
[13:36:40] <jadew> what chip are you using?
[13:37:14] <OndraSter_> the same
[13:37:16] <OndraSter_> ad9834
[13:37:29] <OndraSter_> but I switched to xmega256a3u because it was cheaper than mega328
[13:37:31] <OndraSter_> well
[13:37:35] <OndraSter_> I switched to xmega32d4
[13:37:38] <OndraSter_> but I wanted USB
[13:37:41] <OndraSter_> so I found 256a3u
[13:37:45] <OndraSter_> and then I started xboard :D
[13:38:00] <OndraSter_> so this DDS went into the drawer
[13:38:28] <jadew> heh, I finished one
[13:39:01] <jadew> but it didn't cross my mind to add circuitry to control the amplitude
[13:39:05] <jadew> or the offset for that matter
[13:39:26] <jadew> and it's using the crappier version, the 25Mhz one, so it can only go up to 3mhz reliably
[13:39:28] <OndraSter_> ah I see
[13:39:36] <OndraSter_> I wanted to hook up the input FSADJ pin to DAC :)
[13:39:41] <OndraSter_> on the xmega
[13:40:53] <jadew> since I haven't read the datasheet for the 9834 yet, do you recall reading anything about setting the duty cycle?
[13:41:00] <jadew> I don't think it has that option, does it?
[13:41:02] <OndraSter_> nope
[13:41:14] <OndraSter_> but you can use phase shifting to simulate that :)
[13:41:33] <jadew> you mean, change the phase myself?
[13:41:59] <OndraSter_> aye
[13:42:33] <jadew> you need a very fast avr :)
[13:42:40] <OndraSter_> 32MHz stock xmega
[13:42:54] <OndraSter_> with enough hardware stuff (events, DMA) to do it without single core cycle :P
[13:42:57] <jadew> how fast can it do SPI?
[13:43:03] <OndraSter_> 16Mbit
[13:43:06] <OndraSter_> master
[13:43:11] <OndraSter_> with DMA :P
[13:43:21] <jadew> what's DMA?
[13:43:27] <OndraSter_> Direct Memory Access
[13:43:38] <jadew> ah, you're joking :)
[13:43:38] <OndraSter_> selected peripheral reads/writes to memory location without single core cycle
[13:43:41] <OndraSter_> no I am not
[13:43:45] <OndraSter_> you don't have to use DMA
[13:44:03] <OndraSter_> but I can't imagine reading big data blocks from SD card in SPI mode without DMA :P
[13:44:06] <OndraSter_> poor megas!
[13:44:19] <jadew> but how would that help you to do phase shifting?
[13:44:19] <OndraSter_> that ARMv5 emu for mega would run really fast on xmega actually
[13:44:25] <OndraSter_> you would prepare the data in the RAM
[13:44:32] <OndraSter_> and then connect timer to DMA through event system
[13:44:41] <OndraSter_> and it would send the new data through SPI in the correct time :P
[13:44:56] <jadew> hmm, guess that would work
[13:45:14] <OndraSter_> (I just made that up, I haven't thought about duty cycle back when I was interested in the DDS :D)
[13:45:17] <jadew> sounds like trouble tho, so I won't bother with it
[13:45:20] <OndraSter_> :D
[13:45:21] <OndraSter_> yep
[13:45:25] <OndraSter_> you can always add it
[13:45:32] <jadew> especially since it will change the frequency as well
[13:45:46] <jadew> for example when you're doing triangle signals
[13:45:50] <jadew> and you want to get a ramp
[13:45:57] <jadew> you'd normally change the duty cycle
[13:46:16] <jadew> however, that would imply that one of the ramps would get longer
[13:46:23] <jadew> if you keep changing the phase, that won't happen
[13:46:31] <jadew> so instead you end up with higher frequency
[13:46:43] <OndraSter_> you could get some FPGA
[13:46:49] <OndraSter_> with R2R 14bit DAC :P
[13:46:54] <OndraSter_> or 16bit even!
[13:47:02] <OndraSter_> or CPLD to get better timing
[13:47:23] <jadew> never played with FPGAs, don't really know what they're made of
[13:47:38] <OndraSter_> two chips + decoupling for every power pin :P
[13:48:34] <jadew> brb, have to help my g/f with the groceries
[14:36:26] <Tom_itx> OndraSter_, so when are you gonna do a howto series on the xmegas?
[14:38:28] <OndraSter_> already started!
[14:38:36] <OndraSter_> http://myxboard.net/reference.html
[14:39:58] <Tom_itx> jadew, the 68332 used phase shift for their pwm
[14:40:01] <Tom_itx> mcpwm
[14:40:30] <Tom_itx> you used an external or? gate for a single master and up to like 15 slaves
[14:40:38] <Tom_itx> with virtually no CPU overhead
[14:40:59] <Tom_itx> it was an or or an xor gate, i forget
[14:41:45] <jadew> the problem is that the mcu is not generating the signal
[14:41:51] <OndraSter_> Tom_itx, or you can also use ASF :P
[14:41:57] <Tom_itx> what's that?
[14:42:05] <OndraSter_> Atmel Software Framework
[14:42:10] <OndraSter_> already made libs from atmel for some peripherals
[14:42:19] <OndraSter_> you just tell the ASF wizard "I want to use this, this and this"
[14:42:22] <OndraSter_> something like arduino
[14:42:31] <OndraSter_> it adds the libraries for it
[14:42:37] <Tom_itx> that was one thing that i liked about the 68332 was all the modules it had
[14:42:48] <Tom_itx> OndraSter_, where's that at?
[14:42:54] <Tom_itx> is it part of studio 6?
[14:42:56] <OndraSter_> yes
[14:42:59] <OndraSter_> it was in 5 too
[14:43:02] <Tom_itx> i haven't loaded it yet
[14:43:05] <Tom_itx> i got 5.1
[14:43:08] <OndraSter_> 5.1 too
[14:43:10] <Tom_itx> and 5
[14:43:14] <Tom_itx> and 4
[14:43:17] <OndraSter_> which xmega do you have?
[14:43:17] <jadew> I'm using notepad++
[14:43:21] <Tom_itx> none yet
[14:43:23] <OndraSter_> oh
[14:43:51] <Tom_itx> i'm just starting to figure out my 2560 ard thing
[14:43:54] <OndraSter_> hehe
[14:43:57] <Tom_itx> well
[14:44:01] <Tom_itx> it's mostly them
[14:44:03] <Tom_itx> those bastards
[14:44:08] <Tom_itx> they remap the pins
[14:44:11] <OndraSter_> yep
[14:44:16] <Tom_itx> those bastards
[14:44:21] <OndraSter_> THEY KILLED KENNY!
[14:44:26] <Tom_itx> i believe it
[14:44:37] <OndraSter_> what about those bastards from USB-IF
[14:44:39] <OndraSter_> that:
[14:44:41] <OndraSter_> a) made USB specs
[14:44:47] <OndraSter_> b) sell whole USB VID block for $2k?
[14:44:51] <Tom_itx> but i was looking for a step signal and it was on pin 61 but pin 61 is VCC
[14:45:03] <Tom_itx> those bastards too!
[14:45:15] <OndraSter_> I want to murder somebody
[14:45:19] <OndraSter_> I get bRequest = 22
[14:45:23] <OndraSter_> but there is no bRequest 22
[14:45:24] <OndraSter_> for USB CDC!
[14:45:31] <Tom_itx> so the arduino ide 1.0.1 put it in a .h file
[14:45:32] <Tom_itx> but
[14:45:41] <Tom_itx> the older .0023 has it in a .c file
[14:45:46] <Tom_itx> those bastards
[14:45:52] <OndraSter_> BASTARDS!
[14:45:55] <Tom_itx> see a patern here?
[14:46:07] <Tom_itx> must have offended him
[14:46:13] <OndraSter_> :D
[14:46:30] <OndraSter_> I am re-implementing USB Xmega stack
[14:46:38] <OndraSter_> the stock atmel one's CDC is 8.5kB compiled with -Os
[14:46:46] <Tom_itx> gonna fix dean's?
[14:46:46] <OndraSter_> LUFA is a mess :P
[14:46:51] <Tom_itx> kinda yeah
[14:46:55] <OndraSter_> and LUFA is not done for xmegas yet
[14:47:01] <OndraSter_> I can enumerate just fine
[14:47:01] <Tom_itx> but it was better than what came before it
[14:47:08] <OndraSter_> but no CDC bits yet
[14:47:13] <specing> Assemble it!
[14:47:19] <OndraSter_> hehe
[14:47:21] <OndraSter_> that will be next step
[14:47:22] <Tom_itx> what you gonna call it? OOFA?
[14:47:27] <OndraSter_> enumeration = about 2kB already compiled :(
[14:47:28] <OndraSter_> no
[14:47:35] <OndraSter_> XUSB or XBoot or something like that
[14:47:55] <jadew> how can you set your ground between two points, with out limitting current?
[14:48:03] <jadew> like... with out using a voltage divider
[14:48:05] <Tom_itx> what do you mean?
[14:48:15] <jadew> voltage divider, with out the resistences
[14:48:23] <Tom_itx> star ground
[14:48:32] <Tom_itx> everything has resistance
[14:48:42] <jadew> yeah... but you know what I mean
[14:48:48] <Tom_itx> no not really
[14:48:50] <jadew> I don't want 1mA on the output
[14:49:02] <jadew> am I still connected?
[14:49:06] <Tom_itx> no
[14:49:07] <jadew> power went off for a bit
[14:49:07] <Tom_itx> you died
[14:49:08] <jadew> ok
[14:49:20] <OndraSter_> I have died in your arms tonight
[14:49:23] <OndraSter_> must have been something you said
[14:49:31] <OndraSter_> now, who has got stuck it in their heads? :P
[14:49:33] <jadew> well I want from my 0 - 10V psu, to get -5 to 5
[14:49:39] <jadew> so I need to set the ground in the middle
[14:49:42] <jadew> how do you do that?
[14:49:54] <Tom_itx> a voltage divider
[14:50:05] <OndraSter_> not using resistors of course
[14:50:09] <jadew> exactly
[14:50:10] <Tom_itx> 10k---TAP---10k
[14:50:23] <jadew> with out the resistences, as I mentioned earlier
[14:50:33] <OndraSter_> one would need very powerful output opamp :P
[14:50:33] <jadew> otherwise... it defeats the purpose
[14:50:38] <OndraSter_> two resistors + opamp
[14:50:41] <OndraSter_> but that works for few mA
[14:50:42] <OndraSter_> tops
[14:50:48] <OndraSter_> or are there any power opamps?
[14:51:05] <jadew> so how do you get this kind of current in a circuit?
[14:51:09] <jadew> do you need 2 power sources?
[14:51:18] <OndraSter_> usually, it is preferred way
[14:51:50] <OndraSter_> I thought about using either 2x12V in series or 2x12V in parallel to get either: 0-24V 3A, 0-12V 6A, -12V - 12V 3A
[14:51:53] <OndraSter_> programmable!
[14:51:57] <Tom_itx> i sure hope i got these 2 chips backed up
[14:52:09] <Tom_itx> saved em both via ISP
[14:52:18] <Tom_itx> and they both verify
[14:52:22] <jadew> what did you have on them?
[14:52:26] <Tom_itx> no idea
[14:52:27] <OndraSter_> bootloaders
[14:52:28] <eric_j> jadew, look up a rail splitter
[14:52:31] <jadew> OndraSter_, there must be a chip that does that
[14:52:36] <Tom_itx> it's the default arduino 2560 stuff
[14:52:36] <jadew> eric_j, thanks
[14:52:36] <OndraSter_> there are
[14:52:40] <OndraSter_> and they contain opamp and two resistors
[15:02:46] <OndraSter> DAMNIT INTERNET
[15:02:50] <OndraSter> STOP CRASHING
[15:04:27] <Tom_itx> zlog
[15:26:26] <Tom_itx> OndraSter_ your interweb sucking too?
[15:26:32] <OndraSter_> you guessed it
[15:27:13] <OndraSter_> Ping statistics for 195.47.235.3:
[15:27:13] <OndraSter_> Packets: Sent = 17666, Received = 16602, Lost = 1064 (6% loss),
[15:27:13] <OndraSter_> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
[15:27:13] <OndraSter_> Minimum = 3ms, Maximum = 2718ms, Average = 74ms
[15:27:16] <OndraSter_> (still pinging :P)
[15:27:24] <OndraSter_> I have been pinging since afternoon or so
[15:27:40] <OndraSter_> normally I have 0% packet loss and <7ms avg ping
[15:31:24] <OndraSter_> I am finally rewriting all USB descriptors to match regular USB CDC virtual serial port
[15:31:30] <OndraSter_> and it is one big mess
[15:31:36] <OndraSter_> there is main configuration descriptor which contains:
[15:31:51] <OndraSter_> device configuration
[15:31:59] <OndraSter_> interface for communication {
[15:32:02] <AR__> dude
[15:32:10] <OndraSter_> endpoint for notifications and its own settings
[15:32:10] <OndraSter_> }
[15:32:13] <AR__> stop
[15:32:15] <OndraSter_> interface for data { in, out }
[15:32:15] <OndraSter_> lol
[15:32:23] <AR__> everytime you type a line it beeps
[15:32:26] <AR__> fix it
[15:32:27] <OndraSter_> LOL
[15:32:32] <OndraSter_> it does not beep to me
[15:32:41] <AR__> well that is great
[15:32:47] <AR__> but it does to me
[15:32:53] <OndraSter_> then fix it!
[15:32:55] <OndraSter_> :P
[15:33:00] <Tom_itx> so turn off your beeper
[15:33:03] <AR__> <OndraSter_> LOL
[15:33:05] <AR__> it is you
[15:33:09] <Tom_itx> no
[15:33:10] <Tom_itx> it's you
[15:33:15] <AR__> wtf now you also
[15:33:18] <Tom_itx> see
[15:33:20] <Tom_itx> it's you
[15:33:24] <Tom_itx> fix it
[15:33:25] <AR__> wtf
[15:33:27] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:27] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:28] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:28] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:28] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:29] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:29] <AR__> i didnt change anything
[15:33:29] <Tom_itx> .
[15:33:31] <AR__> looooool
[15:33:32] <AR__> f u
[15:33:34] <Tom_itx> :)
[15:33:46] <AR__> its only in this channel too
[15:33:52] <AR__> oh
[15:33:53] <AR__> nvm
[15:33:56] <AR__> fuck
[15:34:13] <Tom_itx> all better now?
[15:34:52] <OndraSter_> there is one way to find out
[15:34:53] <OndraSter_> beep
[15:34:53] <OndraSter_> beep
[15:34:54] <OndraSter_> beep
[15:34:54] <OndraSter_> beep
[15:34:54] <OndraSter_> beep
[15:34:55] <OndraSter_> :P
[15:35:13] <OndraSter_> \a
[16:35:17] <OndraSter_> Dear USB: http://pastebin.com/49mZLEVv
[16:35:18] <OndraSter_> here you go
[16:35:27] <OndraSter_> now I will have to fix support for multipacket transmissions :P
[16:36:41] <specing> No wonder all the libraries are over 4K
[16:36:50] <OndraSter_> yep
[16:36:54] <OndraSter_> this is over 64B
[16:37:02] <OndraSter_> how big is LUFA?
[16:37:04] <OndraSter_> when compiled?
[16:37:11] <OndraSter_> CDC is ridiculously big
[16:37:15] <OndraSter_> CDC stack
[16:37:31] <specing> My whole charachter LCD lib is just 66 bytes
[16:37:36] <specing> :P
[16:37:44] <OndraSter_> hehe
[16:38:04] <OndraSter_> ask USB why they made it so awful
[16:51:28] <Lt_Lemming> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bit6dEtPW0
[17:35:53] <OndraSter_> with the new data the USB is already 2.2kB in size :(
[17:36:01] <OndraSter_> I am expecting it to be around 3.5kB in size :(
[17:36:19] <OndraSter_> meh, assembly it will be after that!
[17:38:34] <OndraSter_> huh, what is the gcc thinking
[17:39:33] <OndraSter_> 30 times it does not use Z+k
[17:39:38] <OndraSter_> and then once it does ?!
[17:39:45] <OndraSter_> (Z+k = 2 bytes, k = 4 bytes on its own)
[17:39:50] <OndraSter_> for ldd/std
[19:10:46] <bsdfox_> OndraSter_, the price of native USB chips has come down so much in the last year it's hard to justify using a software solution
[20:34:22] <hackvana> bsdfox_: Software USB is still the only solution for people who only use PDIP packages
[20:35:33] <bsdfox_> I know at least pic18f13k50 and14k50 come in pdip for <$2
[20:35:57] <hackvana> Yeah, but we don't talk about them here... :-)
[20:37:16] <Horologium> hackvana, for those who use pdip and don't use pic.
[20:37:55] <hackvana> LOLL yeah
[20:39:13] <Horologium> I've been using pic chips as usb interface for avr lately.
[20:39:59] <hackvana> That would make them cheaper than FTDI chips...
[20:40:01] <Horologium> free samples and all make it cheaper than getting a usb-serial cable and easier than soldering surface mount usb chips from ftdi.
[20:40:15] <hackvana> Interesting
[20:40:47] <Horologium> they have a usb stack with usb-cdc demo that works well enough to build a serial to usb adapter.
[20:40:50] <hackvana> And you could probably implement an AVR programmer in the PIC...
[20:41:28] <Horologium> and with the new chips I just got I might be able to do it without a crystal as they have the ability to sync their clock with the usb signal, like some of the vUSB implementations do with the chips with pll onboard.
[20:41:38] <hackvana> Yeah that's a very cool trick
[20:42:02] <Horologium> haven't seen code to do that yet...should be out soon though I hope.
[20:42:37] <Horologium> along with the pile of super cheap usb cables I bought some years back I have the makings for cheap adapter cables.
[20:43:19] <Horologium> the idea of a usbPIC doing AVR programmer is good...might even go so far as to put it on a piece of PCB with the usb plug etched in the edge.
[20:44:53] <hackvana> Having the PIC there would make it a bit like the Arduino UNO, having the ATmega16u2 there just for the USB (and flashing)
[20:44:58] <Horologium> use the avr910 protocol over CDC...setup 2 CDC ports on it so you can use the second one for comms with the avr too.
[20:45:43] <Horologium> hehe..I've kinda avoided the whole ardueeny world...for some reason it bugs me no end.
[20:46:06] <Horologium> specially since working with an AVR is simple enough on its own without the ardweeny addons and overhead.
[20:47:27] <hackvana> I think that's a point of view shared by many in #avr
[20:48:09] <Horologium> I just wish more microcontrollers used a simplified programming interface like some of the dallas 8052 chips.
[20:48:18] <hackvana> Oh?
[20:48:21] <Horologium> hook it up to a serial port through a level shifter like a max232 or something.
[20:48:27] <Horologium> program it with a terminal program.
[20:48:46] <hackvana> cute
[20:48:47] <Horologium> built in bootloader with autobaud.
[20:48:54] <hackvana> double cute
[20:48:58] <Horologium> yeah.
[20:49:11] <Horologium> ds89c450 is a nifty little chip.
[20:49:40] <Horologium> you can even attach external memory and write to that.
[20:49:53] <Horologium> like some of their nvram modules.
[20:50:11] <Horologium> and they will execute code from external parallel memories too.
[20:50:31] <Horologium> which attiny and atmega won't do.
[20:50:41] <Horologium> slows down drastically doing that but still.
[22:21:48] <CrownWheel> Is there some special trick to getting Eclipse (with AVR plugin) to find header files?
[22:23:05] <CrownWheel> I created a source directory. Copied my headers into it. Added it to the "user" path. And, while I can see my headers in the left hand Project pane, Eclipse still says, "File not found" in the build console.
[22:24:36] <CrownWheel> Specifying the header with full path (not full Eclipse path, full filesystem path) gets it recognized. But...come on. There's got to be a better way.
[23:00:19] <hackvana> CrownWheel: Is the thing that's making the "File not found" message, the compiler?
[23:03:51] <CrownWheel> that's right.
[23:18:17] <CrownWheel> I naively assumed that Eclipse woudl apss all that path information to avr-g++....not the case?
[23:18:32] <CrownWheel> *pass, even. It would pass it.