#avr | Logs for 2012-09-01

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[00:01:55] <Blecha> Casper No <stdint.h>
[00:02:25] <Blecha> if I try <avr/stdint.h> it doesn't exist
[00:11:08] <Thetawaves> theBear, type
[00:11:20] <Thetawaves> size_t = size type
[00:18:12] <theBear> erm, how is size type different to size ? or is it just the 'proper' notation for size ?
[00:23:40] <Casper> it's an absolute size
[00:24:10] <Casper> a char can be signed or unsigned 8/16 or 32 bits
[00:24:18] <Casper> depending on the architecture
[00:26:33] <theBear> i just thought i'd seen uint8 on its own
[00:36:41] <Richard_Cavell> theBear: Ask in C
[00:37:03] <Richard_Cavell> uint8_t is a standard C type
[00:37:09] <Richard_Cavell> In C99
[00:37:16] <Richard_Cavell> Whether it exists in your headers or not I dunno
[00:38:31] <theBear> i believe yer, and i bet it does, i'm just years outta practice, and the less i program, the more multiple languages and psuedocode blend together
[00:39:48] <Richard_Cavell> I re-study everything that I know every year
[00:39:51] <Richard_Cavell> To avoid that
[00:46:39] <Thetawaves> theBear, well, i've never seen a definition of a size type as just 'size'
[00:47:31] <Thetawaves> theBear, you were probably looking at code with custom defines, a lot of people rewrite stdint to u08, u8, uint8, etc...
[00:47:49] <Thetawaves> custom typedefs, my mistake
[00:47:58] <theBear> mmm, that'd make sense
[03:42:25] <Essobi> Hmm.. any embedded linux/ppc channels on freenode?
[06:59:15] <OndraSterver> *chirp* *chirp*
[07:04:51] <alexavr> has anyone ever used (or tried to compile) AVR-Crypto-Lib before to use AES?
[07:21:24] <elektrinis> hi
[07:21:28] <elektrinis> will this work?
[07:21:30] <elektrinis> http://pastebin.com/x5GBs1tz
[07:22:02] <OndraSterver> does it compile?
[07:22:13] <OndraSterver> but for me I'd say no
[07:22:28] <OndraSterver> just create ISR(..) { timerCompareA(); }
[07:24:19] <elektrinis> well, I'm trying to separate the driver from app
[07:24:19] <nomis> elektrinis: at the very least the #define must be in the code *before* you use it.
[07:24:32] <elektrinis> my app should not know the name of the timer
[07:24:33] <nomis> oh sorry,
[07:24:40] <nomis> missed the #include structure there.
[08:35:46] <Tom_itx> !abcminiuser
[08:36:02] <Tom_itx> !abcminiuser
[08:36:19] <Tom_itx> tobbor you're off your rocker again
[08:37:23] <OndraSterver> !seen abcminiuser
[08:37:25] <tobbor> abcminiuser was last seen in #avr on Aug 21 13:11 2012
[08:38:35] <Tom_itx> Mr miniuser is tardy
[11:08:29] <Amadiro> http://www.acmesystems.it/aria this looks like a pretty sweet board
[11:13:20] <karlp> not bad.
[14:41:46] <xpololz> I'm about to order myself an ATmega328 (first MCu), but I'm a bit confused regarding what programmer alternative I should go for... I'm on Linux and I do not have a serial port.
[14:42:39] <xpololz> now would this one be sufficient https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9718 or should I get the ATAVRISP2 ?
[14:44:13] <OndraSterver> xpololz, grab one from Tom_itx
[14:45:41] <xpololz> reason why the 5V FTDI cable is preferred is that I'd be able to order it all from Sparkfun, there's this newbie guide you probably know about which tells me all the stuff I should get :D
[14:53:29] <izua> this stands against everything i hate
[14:53:43] <izua> s/against/for
[14:53:56] <izua> but there are development boards with a chip taht can program itself over the serial link
[14:54:03] <izua> you can program them in C without the crappy libraries they come with
[14:56:01] <izua> i would never recommend such a board though. programmers are cheap though, and tom makes good one. if not, there's a kit on lady ada's site. if you have a parallel port, you can build one yourself out of a handful of resistors
[14:56:37] <xpololz> not buying arduino or anything like that
[14:56:45] <xpololz> getting myself an MCu and a bredboard
[14:57:54] <xpololz> I could find all the parts at e.g Farnell which provides for a much broader selection but I'm a bit afraid I'm going to mess it up by ordering wrong parts
[15:00:11] <OndraSterver> ooohhh long johnson!
[15:00:13] <OndraSterver> Tom_itx, he is here
[15:00:16] <OndraSterver> hello there, abcminiuser
[15:00:41] <xpololz> I need to be able to program it via USB
[15:01:47] <Amadiro> xpololz, why's that?
[15:02:01] <xpololz> because my laptop doesn't give me many alternatives
[15:02:02] <Amadiro> xpololz, and how many do you need?
[15:02:20] <izua> xpololz: you can get a preprogrammed chip with a usb programmer on it.
[15:02:31] <izua> that's sort of the middleground.
[15:03:03] <Amadiro> Yeah, if you only need very few chips (like 10 and below, or less than 5), I'd probably just go with a pre-programmed one that has an USB bootloader
[15:03:16] <Amadiro> it's a bit expensive to buy a programmer just to program like 5 chips once
[15:03:30] <Amadiro> And then never use it again
[15:03:36] <izua> you can even breadboard your programmer!
[15:04:02] <Amadiro> OTOH, if you're planning to experiment with different AVR chips and such, having a programmer is handy
[15:04:18] <Amadiro> And not all chips are big enough to really make a bootloader feasible
[15:04:19] <xpololz> well a single chip would probably be sufficient atm, just want to play around and learn this stuff
[15:04:23] <xpololz> if I don't break it though :)
[15:04:34] <xpololz> which I probably will..
[15:05:00] <izua> you can brick it, ie, make it unprogrammable with your programmer
[15:05:10] <Amadiro> especially on the attiny ones, for instance, I probably wouldn't want a bootloader, as it'd have to bitbang the USB and take away a good chunk of the flash space
[15:05:51] <chris_99> hi guys, so i currently program PICs, but i'm contemplating switching to AVR, does anyone know of a nice example of a program that allows the AVR behave like a virtual serial port over USB
[15:06:36] <Amadiro> chris_99, in which language, and at what level of detail (using a library? using the usb registers manually?)
[15:06:54] <chris_99> in C, and basically as simple as possible
[15:07:48] <Amadiro> chris_99, "as simple" as in "as basic/low-level as possible" or in "as short/easy/high-level as possible"?
[15:08:11] <chris_99> sorry, i mean as short / high level as possible
[15:09:17] <xpololz> well, there certainly are lots of alternatives out there, and that's what's confusing me. Right now I just want to get started, and this probably won't be my last MCu project either, whether I'll use avr next time or something else I don't know either.
[15:09:26] <xpololz> But that's what I'm starting out with
[15:09:59] <Amadiro> chris_99, well, then it depends a bit on what libraries you want to use. Some choices are, for instance, to use LUFA, the teensy usb_serial library, or the arduino libraries... using the arduino libraries it's as short as "Serial.begin(9600);Serial.write(...)", but you get little control over the details
[15:10:02] <izua> chris_99: there is the tinyusb library, and you can do quite a lot of stuff with it. it's "software emulated" so to say
[15:10:09] <xpololz> I'm just looking for an easy way to program it using an usb. I don't care how much it costs..
[15:10:16] <izua> client side software usb, more specifically
[15:10:23] <abcminiuser_> Amadiro, but LUFA sucks
[15:10:23] <Amadiro> chris_99, using LUFA it's gonna be a few dozen lines, probably, but it'll give you all the details and customization (see the lufa example library)
[15:10:43] <izua> abcminiuser_: you should do marketing
[15:10:49] <Amadiro> abcminiuser_, I have never had problems with it, and it works fine for me.
[15:11:02] <abcminiuser_> Amadiro, yeah but I hear the author's an ass
[15:11:25] <Amadiro> abcminiuser_, I can at least list you half a dozen authors that are total asses and still make good software from the top of my head
[15:11:25] <izua> abcminiuser_: yeah, that's what i hear too
[15:11:37] <izua> abcminiuser_: he uses all sorts of tricks to sell his stuff
[15:11:49] <abcminiuser_> Bwahahaaha
[15:11:56] <abcminiuser_> Amadiro, I'm the author :P
[15:12:12] <Amadiro> abcminiuser_, cool.
[15:12:38] <chris_99> thans a lot Amadiro, LUFA looks a _lot_ nicer than some of the rubbish i've been looking @ regarding the PIC
[15:12:43] <abcminiuser_> I'm glad it's worked for you :P
[15:12:43] <chris_99> *thanks
[15:12:47] <Amadiro> abcminiuser_, you work for atmel, IIRC?
[15:13:08] <abcminiuser_> chris_99, yeah but it needs a bit of a spruce up, I just don't have the time and energy at the moment
[15:13:17] <abcminiuser_> Amadiro, yup, since January
[15:13:38] <chris_99> cool, you wrote it then abcminiuser_ ?
[15:14:07] <abcminiuser_> chris_99, LUFA? Yeah, I'm the sucker that spent way too long developing it
[15:14:12] <chris_99> hehe nice
[15:14:14] <Amadiro> abcminiuser_, nice. Where are you located, trondheim?
[15:14:36] <chris_99> can anyone suggest a nice USB programmer, that'd program the whole range of AVRs?
[15:15:00] <xpololz> that would be awesome
[15:15:41] <Amadiro> xpololz, well, if you don't care about the cost at all, you might as well get a JTAGICEmkII, I suppose
[15:16:36] <xpololz> as long as it's reasonable :)
[15:16:49] <Amadiro> well, it's like 380$ or so
[15:17:15] <Amadiro> Might wanna check out first how well it works on linux, though
[15:17:19] <chris_99> eek that's expensive
[15:17:30] <chris_99> is there like an equivalent to the PICKIT?
[15:17:36] <xpololz> alright, I do care about cost.. but 20$ one way or the other doesn't matter much.
[15:18:04] <Amadiro> chris_99, well, most people here seem to like http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/commerce/commerce_index.php
[15:18:19] <Amadiro> I haven't gotten mine yet, so I can't comment
[15:18:44] <Amadiro> Also, the author hangs out in this channel, so you can pester him about stuff
[15:18:49] <abcminiuser_> Amadiro, yeah Trondheim
[15:19:02] <abcminiuser_> Amadiro, that uses my LUFA firmware...
[15:19:09] <abcminiuser_> And my AVRISP clone code
[15:19:20] <chris_99> cheers that looks cool, so are AVRs all 8 bit?
[15:19:30] <abcminiuser_> Nope, there's the 32-bit UC3
[15:19:37] <abcminiuser_> And the hybrid 8/16 XMEGAs
[15:19:41] <Amadiro> abcminiuser_, well, it's the obvious choice, isn't it :)
[15:19:59] <chris_99> can they be programmed by the TINY programmer?
[15:20:52] <xpololz> I guess I'll go with the one from Tom_itx then, thanks for advice
[15:21:26] <abcminiuser_> chris_99, XMEGAs yes
[15:21:28] <abcminiuser_> UC3 no
[15:21:45] <abcminiuser_> The protocol needed for UC3 isn't something I've implemented yet
[15:21:58] <Amadiro> what protocol do those use?
[15:22:00] <abcminiuser_> And can't, since it's an AVRISP MKII clone and the real thing doesn't support it
[15:22:06] <abcminiuser_> JTAG or aWire
[15:30:12] <xpololz> Getting this kit https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8373 as well as USBTiny Mkii Boxed Programmer and an ATmega328, anything else I need?
[15:31:08] <xpololz> or should get..
[15:32:14] <abcminiuser_> Depends, what do you want to do with it?
[15:32:20] <Amadiro> xpololz, get a few attinys, they are throwaway-cheap and fun to play with (even if you "waste" them just turning cycling a bunch of LEDs on/off etc)
[15:32:34] <Amadiro> turning/cycling
[15:33:13] <xpololz> which one?
[15:34:47] <Amadiro> xpololz, they cost less than a dollar or so (well, depends which model exactly and where you buy them) so... all of them, I guess?
[15:35:09] <xpololz> abcminiuser_, I just want some parts to play around with for a while, I'm a complete newbie who wants to learn about electronics MCu's and embedded programming..
[15:35:15] <Amadiro> I've used attiny45 and attiny85 before
[15:35:20] <xpololz> don't know what I'll need to be honest
[15:35:44] <abcminiuser_> xpololz, there's two ways you can go:
[15:35:52] <abcminiuser_> 1) Breadboard and complete DIY
[15:35:58] <abcminiuser_> 2) Atmel XPLAINED kit
[15:36:16] <abcminiuser_> The latter is cheap and gives you lots of known-good hardware
[15:36:30] <abcminiuser_> But you'd need a dragon debugger to make it useful
[15:36:50] <abcminiuser_> The former is better for learning from scratch since you learn how everything's hooked up
[15:37:06] <xpololz> well, I'm going for a bredboard :)
[15:37:12] <xpololz> I want to learn how everything's hooked up
[15:37:26] <xpololz> I'll do as Amadiro said and get some attinys
[15:37:48] <Amadiro> xpololz, you'll need the programmer to program them, though, and if you want to breadboard them, make sure to get the DIP variants
[15:37:58] <xpololz> indeed
[15:38:20] <xpololz> isn't the programmer from Tom_Itx sufficient?
[15:38:25] <Amadiro> It's nice to have more than one chip, because then you can meaningfully play around with things like I2C and SPI
[15:38:28] <Amadiro> xpololz, sure.
[15:38:50] <xpololz> yeah I get it, I'll probably break em fast enough anyways :)
[15:39:38] <xpololz> but these electronics parts like capacitors, resistors, diode's regulators etc, I've got no idea there...
[15:39:46] <Amadiro> well, at least the attiny45 and 85 both have SPI and I2C
[15:39:52] <Amadiro> not sure about smaller models
[15:40:26] <Amadiro> they also offer a nice excuse for learning AVR assembly, since they are so small
[15:40:50] <OndraSterver> attiny13 would push you towards assembly much more :P
[15:41:15] <OndraSterver> let alone tiny4 or such
[15:41:21] <OndraSterver> but those are no DIP
[15:41:36] <xpololz> getting some experience with AVR assembly would be cool as well
[15:42:08] <OndraSterver> avr assembly is nice
[15:42:15] <OndraSterver> compared to other platforms
[15:42:28] <OndraSterver> AVR has nice design really
[15:42:53] <Amadiro> well, SOIC can be comfortably mounted on a veroboard, the attiny13 seems to be available as that
[15:43:01] <OndraSterver> can be
[15:43:15] <OndraSterver> except that veroboard has .1"
[15:43:21] <OndraSterver> soic is half of that?
[15:43:26] <OndraSterver> 0.8mm or 1mm
[15:43:46] <Amadiro> OndraSterver, yes, you'll just have to take a knife and splice the traces in two
[15:43:49] <Amadiro> works fine
[15:44:48] <xpololz> hmm, there's ATTINY45V-10PU and ATTINY45-20PU
[15:44:54] <xpololz> what's the difference?
[15:45:29] <OndraSterver> V version can go to lower voltage
[15:45:30] <xpololz> seems the former one can work at a lower voltage
[15:46:02] <xpololz> and that makes it cheaper? :-s
[15:46:33] <OndraSterver> hasn't it got also less pins? :P
[15:46:35] <OndraSterver> 10 vs 20
[15:47:07] <xpololz> yeah, looked at the picture at first :D
[15:48:20] <Amadiro> I think veroboards are a bit underrated, you can do a lot of fun stuff with them... cut traces (vertically and horizontally), stack them to create multi-layer PCBs (stack orthogonally for best routing capabilities) make vias, patch new pieces on... you can do some pretty complex stuff on them :)
[16:00:35] <cyanide> hi guys
[16:00:58] <cyanide> those sensors used in IR temp guns, what are they called?
[16:01:18] <xpololz> bredboard... hole diameters etc, can't they make this stuff universal?
[16:01:29] <OndraSterver> .1" spacnig
[16:01:30] <xpololz> seems there are plenty alternatives for bredboards as well..
[16:01:30] <OndraSterver> spacing
[16:01:32] <OndraSterver> 1mm hole
[16:01:40] <cyanide> this is the one, correct? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570
[16:01:45] <xpololz> alright, anything else?
[16:02:10] <xpololz> external height, extarnal width, board thickness, board connector, baord material? :-s
[16:02:33] <OndraSterver> that is upto you
[16:02:36] <OndraSterver> what you need
[16:02:50] <xpololz> wish I knew :-s
[16:03:02] <OndraSterver> width & height is the size of the board
[16:03:09] <OndraSterver> thickness = usually 1 - 1.6mm
[16:03:12] <OndraSterver> thicker = more robust
[16:03:18] <OndraSterver> board connector = do you need one?
[16:03:24] <OndraSterver> board material = either FR2 or FR4
[16:03:32] <OndraSterver> FR4 = better, but more expensive
[16:03:53] <xpololz> okay
[16:04:14] <xpololz> that explained a lot.. :-) but board connector do I need one?
[16:11:33] <xpololz> was looking at wrong boards I guess... perhaps something like this(?) - http://no.farnell.com/wisher/wbu-201j/bread-board-wbu-201j/dp/1472858
[16:12:39] <OndraSterver> that's breadboard
[16:12:43] <OndraSterver> not veroboard
[16:17:15] <xpololz> indeed
[16:18:22] <cyanide> what's the biggest character lcds you guys know, in number of characters
[16:19:41] <OndraSterver> 40x2 maybe?
[16:20:15] <cyanide> that it?
[16:20:19] <Amadiro> xpololz, I thought all breadboards had the same spacing... I've never seen one that had a different spacing (i.e. whatever spacing normal DIP chips have)
[16:21:15] <xpololz> Amadiro, http://no.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=451058 guess I'll get that one :-)
[16:21:45] <HSD_Chile> OndraSterver: I think 40x4 is about the max with a HD44780 compatible
[16:21:56] <OndraSterver> well yes
[16:21:59] <OndraSterver> but I have seen only 40x2
[16:22:51] <cyanide> hmm
[16:23:02] <HSD_Chile> Here is one: http://www.vishay.com/docs/37317/37317.pdf
[16:23:04] <cyanide> i dont want to run a graphic lcd
[16:23:16] <Amadiro> xpololz, yeah, that's the correct spacing for DIP
[16:23:28] <cyanide> guess ill have to
[16:24:17] <Amadiro> xpololz, get like 10 pieces or so, you can never have enough of those. Although, you might not want to order them from farnell, they are really expensive.
[16:24:38] <xpololz> okay
[16:24:48] <Amadiro> well, actually those don't look too bad
[16:24:52] <Amadiro> whatever, I guess
[16:25:11] <Amadiro> but mouser tends to be a good deal cheaper (although much slower on delivery)
[16:25:12] <xpololz> you from Norway as well?
[16:25:16] <Amadiro> Yes.
[16:25:24] <xpololz> okay
[16:25:30] <Amadiro> oslo area
[16:26:07] <HSD_Chile> If I remember correct 40x4 is the max a HD44780 can control, the character memory is only 160 bytes.. again if I remember correct...
[16:26:08] <xpololz> I'm much further north :-)
[16:27:09] <OndraSterver> I thought that maximum is 20x4
[16:27:11] <OndraSterver> by single HD44780
[16:31:24] <HSD_Chile> Yep, you're right, the 40x4 use 2 HD's....
[16:49:08] <megal0maniac> It amazes me that OSX 10.7.4 runs better on my PC than most linux distros :/
[16:53:45] <xpololz> meh, having a hard time finding the other stuff I need to get started - power supply, capacitor, diodes, resistors, regulators... I'll definitely order myself some electronics book.
[16:59:58] <OndraSterver> megal0maniac, and your PC is not MAC?
[17:00:00] <OndraSterver> wow :D
[17:00:42] <megal0maniac> Nope. I lied, it was 10.7.2. Just installed the 10.7.4 update and it survived :D
[17:00:53] <megal0maniac> Open Suse is working terribly for me...
[17:00:57] <megal0maniac> Didn't like Debian
[17:01:07] <megal0maniac> Ubuntu has been dumbed down
[17:01:14] <megal0maniac> Mint is buggy
[17:01:58] <OndraSterver> that is the joy of using linux
[17:02:17] <megal0maniac> I used to use crunchbang, but it was a bit of a pain to maintain
[17:02:27] <megal0maniac> What do you use? Debian?
[17:02:30] <OndraSterver> I am happy Windows platform user
[17:03:15] <megal0maniac> Me too
[17:03:27] <megal0maniac> Until I feel like something different :P
[17:04:31] <megal0maniac> I'm not really biased, I'm happy to suffer the learning curve if I feel like I'll be happy with it. But I never do. Maybe I should try Debian again... It seems like the standard.
[17:05:01] <megal0maniac> Right now, I'm just amazed at how incredibly OSX is running
[17:06:07] <megal0maniac> How are the xboards coming along?
[17:09:23] <OndraSterver> megal0maniac, I can pretty much ship it, I have tested all IOs to work, same for USB
[17:09:53] <megal0maniac> Made more than 3? :P
[17:10:07] <OndraSterver> no, I still have yet to order parts for more than 3 :D
[17:10:14] <OndraSterver> because I will have to order 25 xmegas now :D
[17:10:18] <OndraSterver> otherwise the price is crazy
[17:10:31] <OndraSterver> 6.9€/1pcs (at 1pcs order) or 4.9€/1pcs at 25pcs+ order
[17:10:36] <OndraSterver> quite a difference
[17:10:53] <megal0maniac> Yeah, that's pretty substantial...
[17:11:08] <OndraSterver> I lied
[17:11:13] <OndraSterver> 6.04€/1
[17:11:17] <OndraSterver> 5.04€/10
[17:11:19] <OndraSterver> 3.79€/25
[17:11:25] <OndraSterver> 3.43 €/100
[17:11:41] <megal0maniac> 25 looks like the magic number
[17:11:49] <OndraSterver> yes
[17:12:38] <megal0maniac> http://i.imgur.com/FBK3Ql.png
[17:13:39] <megal0maniac> Where are you getting them from? Atmel directly?
[17:13:57] <OndraSterver> I wish
[17:13:58] <OndraSterver> mouser
[17:14:09] <OndraSterver> I haven't seen atmel to sell them directly
[17:14:13] <OndraSterver> I know that TI does
[17:14:14] <OndraSterver> ADI does
[17:14:18] <OndraSterver> but only 1k+ usually
[17:14:25] <OndraSterver> ADI can do 100 I think as well
[17:18:00] <megal0maniac> Wow... ZAR130 for 1. VAT inclusive though
[17:18:15] <megal0maniac> That's like 13 euro
[17:20:00] <OndraSterver> for what
[17:20:02] <OndraSterver> ?
[17:20:14] <megal0maniac> ATXMEGA256A3B-AU
[17:20:21] <OndraSterver> a3b?
[17:20:31] <megal0maniac> Closest they had
[17:20:31] <OndraSterver> I am using these
[17:20:32] <OndraSterver> http://cz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Atmel/ATXMEGA256A3U-MH/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuur7c7MCGU2AEf3JiWSPmV
[17:20:33] <OndraSterver> a3u
[17:20:34] <OndraSterver> ah
[17:20:41] <OndraSterver> because USB :)
[17:20:56] <OndraSterver> I am ordering it via local reseller - no extra $$ paid
[17:21:00] <OndraSterver> and shipping is not 40€ :D
[17:21:03] <OndraSterver> but 5€
[17:21:09] <OndraSterver> takes a bit longer, but that is okay
[17:21:17] <OndraSterver> (like a week or week and a half)
[17:21:51] <megal0maniac> What the...? ZAR130 and not even USB? Rip-off...
[17:22:09] <OndraSterver> lol
[17:22:18] <OndraSterver> don't have *b models also display drivers?
[17:22:20] <OndraSterver> segmented displays
[17:23:28] <jkdj> If I am making an AVR target board for a 10 pin ISP setup do I reallyt have to attach 4-8 to ground or can I leave them NC
[17:23:51] <OndraSterver> check the official atmel's note for that
[17:23:56] <OndraSterver> but there must be ground
[17:24:00] <OndraSterver> so they have common ground
[17:24:10] <OndraSterver> as there must be vcc out
[17:24:17] <OndraSterver> for the programmer to adjust its output voltages
[17:25:00] <jkdj> Okay I have an AVR dragon
[17:25:04] <Landon> ok
[17:25:08] <jkdj> Ill just hook them all up to ground
[17:25:40] <megal0maniac> OndraSterver: Looks like the U model has USB, 2 extra SPI channels and 1 extra UART. Otherwise no difference in the specs
[17:25:58] <megal0maniac> jkdj: If you don't know, then connect them. Better safe than magic smoke :)
[17:26:12] <jkdj> That's true!
[17:26:20] <megal0maniac> I'm being a bit dramatic, but it still applies
[17:27:05] <OndraSterver> megal0maniac, hmm it must be b3 models then :)
[17:27:09] <OndraSterver> who have display driver
[17:30:16] <jkdj> What do you guys think about that new TI Launchpad with the M4 Cortex for $5.00
[17:33:26] <megal0maniac> I think that for $5, it's worth buying to form your own informed opinion :)
[17:33:56] <megal0maniac> Smart move for TI, although hobbyists aren't a huge market for them if I'm not mistaken
[17:34:10] <jkdj> I am a freshman EE who is just now getting to embedded stuff. I messed with Arduino and now I want a more accurate picture of embedded hardware. So I am going to mess with everything I can
[17:34:24] <OndraSterver> omg
[17:34:28] <OndraSterver> I have just bought TI MSP430 launchpad
[17:35:56] <megal0maniac> jkdj: RikusW's board is pretty cool if you want to play with AVRs, I just bought one. Arduinos are good because you can treat them as regular AVRs as well if you want to get more technical.
[17:36:14] <megal0maniac> OndraSterver: I'm busy ordering the M4 one :P
[17:36:37] <jkdj> I have never heard of that board
[17:37:04] <jkdj> Right, I can just treat an Arduino like a AVR with a 16Mhz clock right?
[17:37:12] <megal0maniac> Which one?
[17:37:17] <megal0maniac> And yes
[17:37:38] <OndraSterver> megal0maniac, link to the launchpad?
[17:38:12] <megal0maniac> jkdj: It's just an AVR with supporting hardware. It's the software and bootloader which make it an "Arduino"
[17:38:25] <megal0maniac> OndraSterver: https://estore.ti.com/Stellaris-LaunchPad.aspx
[17:38:33] <OndraSterver> thanks
[17:38:42] <jkdj> Do you leave the Arduino bootloader on there if you use regular AVR code?
[17:39:05] <megal0maniac> You can, but you'd do well to invest in a programmer
[17:39:14] <megal0maniac> RikusW's board does that nicely
[17:39:18] <jkdj> Yea I have a dragon already
[17:39:29] <jkdj> Do you have a link for that?
[17:39:56] <xpololz> hmm, does anyone know of some nice online resources to learn the electronics stuff needed to get started with microcontrollers?
[17:39:58] <OndraSterver> megal0maniac, nice, 80MHz, 256kB flash
[17:40:02] <OndraSterver> much better than MSP430 :P
[17:40:15] <OndraSterver> xpololz, appnotes from atmel
[17:40:16] <OndraSterver> and others
[17:41:13] <xpololz> right now I can't even figure out what stuff I'll need to wire up my MCu so.. :(
[17:41:32] <megal0maniac> jkdj: https://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/
[17:42:54] <megal0maniac> xpololz: What /do/ you know?
[17:44:04] <xpololz> I did know some electronics years ago when I took physics class... I know digital logics
[17:44:08] <xpololz> else from that.. nothing
[17:44:17] <OndraSterver> also that sky is (often) blue!
[17:44:22] <jkdj> allhttp://www.allaboutcircuits.com/
[17:44:33] <jkdj> http://www.doctronics.co.uk/
[17:44:52] <jkdj> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/
[17:45:20] <jkdj> All those links will be of use
[17:47:25] <xpololz> I'm not looking for a throughout understanding of the field of electronics, just the basics and necessary knowledge to get started with MCu's :-)
[17:48:11] <megal0maniac> xpololz: You need the principles in order to understand the "basics and necessary knowledge" to get started with uCs
[17:48:51] <megal0maniac> Read through some stuff. If you don't understand a term, look it up. Get familiar with how things work and why they work that way.
[17:49:23] <Amadiro> OndraSterver, also look at the launchpad stellaris
[17:49:30] <OndraSterver> I just did
[17:49:41] <Amadiro> oh, right
[17:49:44] <OndraSterver> :D
[17:49:45] <Amadiro> I thought you meant the other one
[17:49:49] <OndraSterver> no
[17:49:54] <OndraSterver> I already have got MSP430
[17:50:01] <OndraSterver> haven't even connected it to my PC yet
[17:50:11] <Amadiro> OndraSterver, how is it? I ordered a few with my stellaris boards, just because they were so cheap
[17:50:18] <Amadiro> mhkay
[17:50:44] <megal0maniac> OndraSterver: It annoys me how you /have/ to put down a company, URL for said company and application for the device. However, in the terms and conditions, it doesn't say that you have to work an related company.
[17:50:50] <Amadiro> OndraSterver, not as cheap, but also cool if you want to try out the atmel ARMs: http://www.acmesystems.it/aria
[17:52:34] <OndraSterver> we had atmel's ARMs at school
[17:52:39] <megal0maniac> Amadiro: Nice, but pricey-ish. The $5 boards you can buy "just because" :)
[17:52:41] <OndraSterver> and I have atmel's ARM in netduino plus :)
[17:53:11] <OndraSterver> and if ARM I'd go for NXP's (?) that dualcore M4 + M0 in one box
[17:53:29] <OndraSterver> it won't run linux because it is cortex m* series but who cares about linux
[17:54:16] <Amadiro> OndraSterver, well, if you have features like ethernet and usb host, using an OS is probably not a bad idea, unless you have a good reason not to
[17:54:25] <OndraSterver> :)
[17:54:29] <Amadiro> Otherwise things get awfully complex
[17:54:53] <OndraSterver> yes
[18:01:20] <megal0maniac> Launchpad ordered :)
[18:01:30] <OndraSterver> megal0maniac, actually the first three xmegas256a3u I bought had error price... 4€/1pcs :D
[18:02:29] <megal0maniac> That's lucky, considering you weren't in a position to buy 25 of them
[18:02:32] <OndraSterver> yep
[18:02:35] <OndraSterver> I still am not :D
[18:02:49] <OndraSterver> but I don't feel like I have a chance :P
[18:03:01] <OndraSterver> common sense says "it is robbery for <25pcs"
[18:03:18] <megal0maniac> How many coco boards have you printed?
[18:03:30] <OndraSterver> printed?
[18:03:47] <OndraSterver> only 10 luckily
[18:03:55] <megal0maniac> Why luckily?
[18:03:56] <OndraSterver> because there is rev B prepared :)
[18:04:03] <megal0maniac> Aha.
[18:04:07] <megal0maniac> Changes?
[18:04:32] <OndraSterver> I have used LM2936 instead 1117 vreg
[18:04:36] <OndraSterver> so the pins are wrong
[18:04:44] <OndraSterver> so the vreg is rotated by 90°
[18:04:47] <megal0maniac> Oh yeah, you said.
[18:04:59] <OndraSterver> I have also moved some silkscreens around
[18:05:10] <megal0maniac> Couldn't you just use the LM2936 on Rev A?
[18:05:44] <OndraSterver> costs 1.5 - 3€ for single part
[18:05:48] <OndraSterver> and does 80mA
[18:05:50] <OndraSterver> no, I did not
[18:06:00] <OndraSterver> (it might have been other number, I am not sure anymore)
[18:06:08] <OndraSterver> regular 1117 costs like 0.2€
[18:06:30] <megal0maniac> Heh. Sounds like robbery again :P
[18:06:57] <megal0maniac> That's mad that a vreg that makes <100mA costs >1 Euro
[18:07:14] <OndraSterver> I lied, 0,36€/1pcs
[18:08:11] <OndraSterver> damn, everything has gone up in the prices!
[18:08:20] <OndraSterver> USB connector is now at 0,355€
[18:08:24] <OndraSterver> it was 0,26€
[18:09:21] <OndraSterver> it is most likely because of USD/EUR conversion
[18:09:31] <OndraSterver> since mouser is US located but I pay in EUR values
[18:10:01] <megal0maniac> That makes sense
[18:10:19] <megal0maniac> Mouser services SA, but it isn't even an option since shipping is so expensive
[18:10:27] <OndraSterver> well
[18:10:28] <OndraSterver> like I said
[18:10:31] <OndraSterver> I use local reseller :)
[18:10:35] <OndraSterver> local = CZE + SVK
[18:10:54] <OndraSterver> brb
[18:10:55] <megal0maniac> Ah. If we have one of those, I don't know about it :P
[18:10:57] <OndraSterver> changing stations
[18:12:21] <OndraSterver> back
[18:13:13] <OndraSterver> arrgh, some people go to school on 1st october
[18:13:18] <OndraSterver> I have to already at 17th september
[18:13:22] <OndraSterver> but! some go on 3rd september
[18:13:23] <OndraSterver> :P
[18:14:00] <megal0maniac> School as in school, or tertiary education?
[18:14:14] <OndraSterver> as in university
[18:14:19] <OndraSterver> the one after middle school
[18:14:26] <OndraSterver> aka when you are 19 - 20 yo
[18:16:00] <megal0maniac> What are you studying?
[18:17:10] <OndraSterver> wel
[18:17:11] <OndraSterver> well
[18:17:16] <OndraSterver> it is marked as "Computer engineering"
[18:17:26] <OndraSterver> mostly SW, some hardware is in it too though
[18:17:38] <OndraSterver> I want to go towards microcontrollers, FPGAs etc
[18:17:43] <OndraSterver> and programming for them
[18:17:51] <OndraSterver> nobody likes Java except few people
[18:18:08] <OndraSterver> (only managed language that rocks is C# lol)
[18:18:16] <OndraSterver> Netduino Plus is not bad IMHO
[18:18:28] <megal0maniac> I was considering getting one of those
[18:18:33] <OndraSterver> I got one from Microsoft
[18:18:36] <OndraSterver> they lended it to me
[18:18:39] <OndraSterver> for indefinetely
[18:18:47] <megal0maniac> That's kind
[18:18:50] <OndraSterver> yep :D
[18:18:54] <OndraSterver> I have got connections there
[18:19:06] <OndraSterver> I have also got Lumia 800 from them for free as a developer ;D
[18:19:22] <megal0maniac> I need connections like that :/
[18:19:24] <OndraSterver> same for 710, but that was win on developer contest (gaming on Kinect lol)
[18:19:29] <OndraSterver> heh
[18:19:39] <OndraSterver> I have been in MS HQ in Prague few times
[18:19:52] <OndraSterver> few times in the base floor for some chit & chat
[18:19:58] <OndraSterver> and once in the top in the HQ itself
[18:20:04] <OndraSterver> and once even on the floor :P
[18:20:05] <OndraSterver> err
[18:20:08] <OndraSterver> on the roof
[18:20:19] <megal0maniac> I've met the MD of Microsoft South Africa
[18:20:44] <megal0maniac> Didn't like him
[18:21:04] <OndraSterver> here the guy that manages Microsoft (or was it only for WinPho/SkyDrive/?? part?) also manages it for few more eastern countries
[18:21:08] <OndraSterver> I have met him few times :P
[18:21:10] <OndraSterver> spoke with him even
[18:21:15] <OndraSterver> just as WP CZE team leader
[18:21:23] <OndraSterver> grabbed a beer with him even!
[18:21:44] <OndraSterver> too bad they do not get preproduction devices... only those which were announced
[18:21:58] <OndraSterver> it was lumia 900 back in march? and omnia m few months ago
[18:22:07] <OndraSterver> the day it was announced we grabbed a beer in a pub :P
[18:22:07] <megal0maniac> Lol. Nothing like that here...
[18:22:15] <OndraSterver> they had this "meeting with public"
[18:22:17] <OndraSterver> anybody could come
[18:22:30] <megal0maniac> There aren't people like that here.
[18:22:34] <OndraSterver> heh
[18:22:35] <megal0maniac> It's all just marketing
[18:22:40] <OndraSterver> everybody loves beer in CZE
[18:22:54] <megal0maniac> Nothing wrong with beer, it's the people :P
[18:22:58] <OndraSterver> :D
[18:24:21] <megal0maniac> Anyway, I'm off. Servicing car early tomorrow so I'd better get some sleep while I can. Cheers :)
[18:25:10] <OndraSterver> bb
[18:58:54] <lyra2> maybe someone would be kind enough and could write code (in C) for any AVR? http://i46.tinypic.com/2ue6u02.png
[19:08:47] <Amadiro> lyra2, why not do it yourself?
[19:09:24] <lyra2> maybe because i don't know how to do it?
[19:09:37] <Amadiro> lyra2, it's very easy, this shouldn't be more than a few lines.
[19:09:50] <lyra2> i know
[19:10:08] <lyra2> but i have no knowledge in this type of programming
[19:10:44] <Amadiro> lyra2, for this particular piece of functionality, it's no different from any other type of C programming, really; you just write your loop and thats it.
[19:10:59] <Amadiro> for the sleeping you can use _delay_ms() from avr/delay.h
[19:11:02] <lyra2> i know VB, i don't know C
[19:11:10] <Amadiro> oh, well.
[19:11:20] <lyra2> and i have no experience with MCU programmign
[19:12:19] <lyra2> as it is few lines, maybe some could spend a minute or so and give me a code, i would appreciate that a lot
[19:12:35] <Amadiro> lyra2, but how would you build it and upload it to your microcontroller
[19:13:37] <lyra2> i just need a .coff file and hex file
[19:13:37] <Amadiro> If you don't know C or have experience with MCU programming, you'll probably have problem with both of those
[19:13:55] <Amadiro> and? typically you'd only need one?
[19:14:05] <lyra2> no, i won't, i will use it to simulate in Proteus
[19:14:15] <lyra2> it can accept either coff or hex files
[19:14:21] <lyra2> coff would be better of course
[19:14:29] <Amadiro> lyra2, well, which chip do you want to simulate?
[19:14:37] <lyra2> almost any fits
[19:15:24] <tonxd> What are some common reasons that AVR Studio will fail to go into programming mode? I just made a target board with a zif socket and 10 pin ISP header and it can't read it. Verified all connections and AVR studio reads voltage fine
[19:15:35] <tonxd> I went off of this schematic for ISP
[19:15:35] <tonxd> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wvshare.com/img/devkit/general/10-pin_ISP_Connector.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wvshare.com/product/USB-AVRISP-XPII.htm&h=166&w=203&sz=46&tbnid=_YILhJCtJTxClM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=110&zoom=1&usg=__WFC13HOtrCJPzB13J2ojS_WKbsk=&sa=X&ei=QoVCUKiFGYqg2QWv0YHoDA&ved=0CCUQ9QEwAQ&dur=278
[19:16:08] <lyra2> Amadiro, it can be atiny10, atmega329, at90s2313 etc.
[19:18:03] <lyra2> Amadiro, http://i50.tinypic.com/kch34z.png
[19:18:52] <Amadiro> lyra2, I don't really have any chips on me right now... maybe I have an 32u4 lying somewhere around here
[19:19:29] <tonxd> Does anyone have an idea of my problem?
[19:21:27] <OndraSterver> are the pins properly connected?
[19:21:33] <OndraSterver> haven't you flipped top/bottom side etc?
[19:33:08] <OndraSterver> omg, atxmega16d4 is cheaper than atmega168 :/
[19:33:23] <OndraSterver> I could have used the few extra IOs
[19:33:32] <OndraSterver> plus the 0.2€ less
[19:33:49] <OndraSterver> I don't run into any issues within that very long errata for d4 series
[19:35:24] <Amadiro> go for it, I guess. For what project is this?
[19:36:53] <OndraSterver> it is my oven controller
[19:36:55] <OndraSterver> need just 1 piece
[19:36:59] <OndraSterver> I have already made the board
[19:37:20] <OndraSterver> but I could re-do it and fix the pins, since my printer sucks at line separation and I hope there are no shorts after I manually cut the pins apart with a knife :/
[19:37:41] <Amadiro> ah
[19:37:47] <OndraSterver> meh
[19:37:49] <OndraSterver> can't be bothered
[19:38:02] <OndraSterver> the new peice of board would be worth more than 0.2€ :P
[19:38:17] <OndraSterver> and actually I maybe have got here one mega168 in TQFP
[19:38:24] <OndraSterver> from chinese JTAGICE clone
[19:38:28] <OndraSterver> not sure if it works though
[19:38:57] <OndraSterver> will take a look in the morning
[19:39:18] <OndraSterver> I should catalogize the parts I have from stuff I took apart and for those 1-off projects use them...
[19:39:28] <OndraSterver> I have boxes of capacitors
[19:45:25] <OndraSterver> I have got here one microcontroller... it is H8/3069 from renesas
[19:45:42] <OndraSterver> flash/DRAM/.. support
[19:45:55] <OndraSterver> (both builtin flash and sram or external ones both)
[19:46:11] <OndraSterver> it is 32bit? micro
[19:46:23] <OndraSterver> well, 16bit
[19:46:28] <OndraSterver> but you can work with registers as 32bit
[19:46:37] <OndraSterver> AD, DA
[19:50:51] <OndraSterver> why is everybody so... quiet? :/
[19:51:03] <Richard_Cavell> What do you want me to say?
[19:51:07] <Richard_Cavell> AVR RULES!!!!!!
[19:51:11] <OndraSterver> haha
[19:51:13] <OndraSterver> yes
[19:51:38] <darsie> I was flossing my teeth.
[19:51:40] <OndraSterver> but they should soon come up with something newer than xmega even...
[19:51:45] <Jan-> hey guys
[19:51:51] <OndraSterver> because cheap cortex m0/m3 are flooding the market
[19:51:53] <OndraSterver> hey Jan-
[19:52:01] <Jan-> where's a good source in the UK for AVRs in small quantities? RS and Farnell are easy, by they have scary minimum orders and shipping fees.
[19:52:21] <OndraSterver> what is the shipping price for mouser or digikey?
[19:52:45] <Jan-> I'm not sure
[19:52:47] <Jan-> Let's find out
[19:53:34] <Amadiro> Jan-, farnell has minimum orders? Are you sure?
[19:53:39] <Amadiro> What AVR do you want?
[19:53:54] <OndraSterver> farnell has crazy prices honestly
[19:54:00] <darsie> RS has no minimum orders or shipping fees in Austria, IIRC.
[19:54:04] <Amadiro> yeah, they do
[19:54:21] <Jan-> I'd like to get some tiny84s
[19:54:33] <Richard_Cavell> Are there any decent AVR suppliers/resellers in Australia?
[19:54:35] <darsie> I ordered 10 NE-2 lamps from RS, IIRC.
[19:54:37] <Richard_Cavell> I've been buying direct from Atmel
[19:54:40] <OndraSterver> what about tiny85? They are IMHO much cheaper
[19:54:47] <Jan-> They are, which is weird
[19:55:00] <Jan-> To be honest there's probably no immediate reason why not 85s
[19:55:02] <OndraSterver> they are about 0.8€ on mouser per piece
[19:55:06] <OndraSterver> cheaper than tiny13a!
[19:55:20] <OndraSterver> Richard_Cavell, atmel sells directly? :o
[19:55:24] <OndraSterver> I never found it on their website
[19:55:28] <Jan-> I just thought the 85s had such a really limited pin count that it was a bit of a liability
[19:55:30] <Jan-> but they have SPI, right?
[19:55:36] <OndraSterver> afaik yes
[19:55:43] <OndraSterver> and there are 20pin? 16pin? versions
[19:55:59] <OndraSterver> or am I confusing it with another chip...
[19:56:09] <timemage> OndraSterver, often buying direct means buying bulk.
[19:56:35] <OndraSterver> hmm they do have 20pin package but still only 6 IO pins
[19:56:39] <OndraSterver> timemage, yes
[19:56:43] <OndraSterver> but at what prices :)
[19:57:00] <timemage> OndraSterver, i usually don't want 2000+ of something, so, no idea. =)
[19:57:09] <OndraSterver> that's why I am asking Richard_Cavell :P
[19:57:14] <Jan-> one thing I noticed is that all the tiny84s seem to be 20mhz
[19:57:28] <sabesto> VTG trace close to impossible to route to the ISP header, leave it out or not? :P
[19:57:32] <OndraSterver> 85 can do 20MHz too
[19:57:38] <OndraSterver> sabesto, do not leave it out
[19:57:45] <Richard_Cavell> OndraSterver: I gotta go out dude
[19:57:47] <OndraSterver> programmer will not know to which level to adjust the output buffer
[19:57:52] <OndraSterver> okay Richard_Cavell
[19:58:08] <sabesto> you cant force it?
[19:58:18] <OndraSterver> in atmel studio not as far as I know
[19:58:22] <Jan-> See, when I bought mega168s, the 20mhz was a (slightly) expensive option
[19:58:36] <OndraSterver> hmm I thought that all 168 were 20MHz specced
[19:58:38] <Jan-> but all 84s seem to be -20PU
[19:58:44] <Jan-> hm no, they're usually 8 or 16
[19:58:47] <OndraSterver> hmm
[19:58:50] <Jan-> I think 8, usually 16
[19:58:56] <sabesto> bah
[19:58:57] <OndraSterver> well, overclocking them is no problem, is it :)
[19:59:07] <Jan-> I'm not sure.
[19:59:15] <OndraSterver> like I said the other day - I could blink the LED on 80MHz on xmega where stock is 32MHz
[19:59:19] <OndraSterver> :P
[19:59:50] <OndraSterver> Jan-, what are your requirements on speed/peripherals/package?
[20:00:04] <Jan-> not many
[20:00:13] <Jan-> SPI and, ideally, a few spare pins
[20:00:29] <Jan-> speed is not really a factor
[20:00:34] <OndraSterver> define "a few"
[20:00:37] <OndraSterver> SPI takes three
[20:00:49] <Jan-> In the first instance one. But I'm sort of hesitant to design the thing "at capacity"
[20:01:07] <Jan-> But hey, the damn thing's a lot cheaper
[20:01:12] <OndraSterver> well 85s are really cheap
[20:01:24] <Tom_itx> hey OndraSterver
[20:01:25] <Jan-> they are
[20:01:29] <Jan-> might as well just get those :)
[20:01:33] <OndraSterver> 0,722€/piece
[20:01:37] <OndraSterver> @1pcs
[20:01:38] <OndraSterver> hey Tom_itx
[20:01:51] <sabesto> i was hoping to avoid 2 layer pcb's, this VTG trace is pissing me off
[20:01:55] <OndraSterver> heh
[20:02:01] <OndraSterver> re-route it then
[20:02:09] <Tom_itx> 2 layer is easy
[20:02:20] <OndraSterver> well, doing 2 layers just because of one trace :/
[20:02:22] <OndraSterver> sucks
[20:02:33] <Tom_itx> jumper it
[20:02:36] <OndraSterver> ye
[20:02:38] <Tom_itx> if it's just one
[20:02:58] <sabesto> Tom_itx: yes, got a mill with cam for fiducials and all, thats not the problem
[20:03:13] <sabesto> but i think i will jump it
[20:03:34] <OndraSterver> 0Ohm 1206 or 0805 cost next to nothing
[20:03:36] <Jan-> oh hey what happens about programming 85s?
[20:03:39] <Jan-> Must be lots of shared pins
[20:03:41] <Tom_itx> oh, you mill your pcbs?
[20:03:46] <Tom_itx> i never did care for that much
[20:03:51] <OndraSterver> Jan-, sure they are shared
[20:03:58] * Jan- scratches head
[20:04:07] <Jan-> Tricky
[20:04:11] <OndraSterver> there are many ways how to get around it
[20:04:19] <OndraSterver> a) disconnect it (aka take it from the circuit)
[20:04:23] <OndraSterver> b) ignore it
[20:04:35] <OndraSterver> c) use separate line to control Chip Select on the device and use external pullup
[20:04:48] <OndraSterver> d) jumper to disconnect SCK
[20:04:54] <Jan-> I had a couple of problems with it when we had LEDs hung on some of the pins
[20:05:24] <Jan-> but I guess the solutions are pretty basic
[20:06:54] <sabesto> Tom_itx: yes
[20:07:22] <OndraSterver> you can get reel of 0Ohms for like 10 bucks
[20:07:27] <OndraSterver> that is 4 or 5k of them!
[20:07:46] <OndraSterver> I bought a reel of 100nF caps + 4k7 resistors
[20:07:52] <OndraSterver> and then accidentaly one more reel of 100nF caps :D
[20:08:47] <sabesto> i already used a load of 0R's, but its just stupid when you have to use 7 to get a trace through
[20:09:25] <sabesto> if i had something bigger then 0805 it would have helped though
[20:09:33] <sabesto> i do have shunt resistors :P
[20:09:40] <sabesto> but they cost a lot
[20:09:53] <Jan-> Okay, so the SPI pins ar ethe ones you program is
[20:10:01] <Jan-> let me say that again with additional Making Sense
[20:10:12] <Jan-> The SPI pins are the ones you program it with.
[20:10:19] <OndraSterver> yes
[20:10:22] <Jan-> Will the programmer object if there are SPI devices connected to those pins too?
[20:10:34] <OndraSterver> if they talk on MISO as well, yes
[20:10:41] <Jan-> Urk
[20:10:44] <OndraSterver> like I said
[20:10:44] <Jan-> Oh well, so much for ISP :)
[20:10:48] <OndraSterver> disconnect the SCK
[20:10:49] <OndraSterver> boom, dne
[20:10:50] <OndraSterver> done
[20:10:58] <Jan-> right so you can still have stuff connected to MISO and MOSI
[20:11:03] <OndraSterver> or use one line to control /CS of the devices
[20:11:08] <OndraSterver> and use external pullup
[20:11:39] <OndraSterver> damn, why are LEDs so expensive? 0.07€/pcs!
[20:11:45] <Jan-> Eh, not sure what that means
[20:11:50] <OndraSterver> 0,054€/100pcs
[20:12:05] <OndraSterver> CapnKernel, you do not supply excessive amounts of parts, do you?
[20:12:07] <OndraSterver> that hackvana eshop
[20:15:33] <Jan-> I get "use one line to control /cs of the device"
[20:15:37] <Jan-> what does "and use external pullup"
[20:15:44] <Jan-> ...mean
[20:16:28] <Casper> pullup is a resistor from the pin to VCC
[20:16:34] <Casper> pulldown is a resistor to ground
[20:16:39] <Jan-> I know what a pullup is
[20:16:42] <Jan-> what sort of pullup where
[20:17:02] <OndraSterver> between the device's Chip Select pin
[20:17:07] <OndraSterver> and vcc
[20:17:22] <OndraSterver> then, when you talk to the device, you just use your attiny to pull the chip select down
[20:17:24] <OndraSterver> and activate it
[20:17:30] <Jan-> right OK
[20:17:39] <Jan-> how is this not normal procedure
[20:17:52] <OndraSterver> and since the pins are in high impedance during programming, the external pullup will pull the pin up
[20:18:01] <OndraSterver> and deactivate the SPI on the "second" chip
[20:18:10] <Jan-> right OK
[20:18:13] <OndraSterver> since chip select is active low
[20:18:23] <Jan-> Programming isn't actually "SPI" then, it's some private Atmel thing?
[20:18:42] <OndraSterver> it is SPI with some /RESET pin toggling along the way
[20:18:51] <OndraSterver> regular SPI rules apply
[20:18:51] <Jan-> right
[20:19:04] <Jan-> I knew about the coding on reset, read about it somewhere
[20:19:12] <OndraSterver> it is in the datasheet
[20:19:13] <Jan-> isn't there also some way to reset the fuses to a known state like that?
[20:19:16] <OndraSterver> under device programming
[20:19:24] <OndraSterver> huh?
[20:19:41] <Jan-> special pin wiggling of some sort
[20:19:45] <OndraSterver> huh?
[20:19:46] <Jan-> maybe I'm thinking of something else
[20:19:49] <OndraSterver> high voltage programming?
[20:20:07] <OndraSterver> aka applying 12V to reset pin when you break the fuses?
[20:20:19] <Jan-> possibly
[20:21:31] <OndraSterver> anyway, I am off
[20:21:32] <OndraSterver> bb
[20:25:04] <Jan-> ok thanks for your help
[20:35:10] <Jan-> It's taken me this long to figure out that Farnell don't even advertise their delivery fees :)
[20:38:00] <Jan-> Oh they do.
[20:38:07] <Jan-> Google saves the day :)
[20:40:23] <Jan-> Hey, free :)
[20:41:03] <jadew> hey, any idea on how to get the size of the resulting firmware?
[20:41:47] <Thetawaves> objdump -x will list it somewhere
[20:42:04] <jadew> in hex
[20:42:27] <jadew> I'm using objdump -h, but I want something I can understand right away
[20:42:34] * Thetawaves can read hex almost as well as decimal
[20:42:50] <jadew> FA9
[20:42:50] <jadew> quick
[20:43:00] <jadew> so you can't :P
[20:43:09] <Thetawaves> [all bits] [10][9]
[20:43:14] <Tom_itx> you didn't pay him
[20:43:14] <Thetawaves> all bits = 16
[20:43:35] <jadew> F is 15
[20:43:38] <jadew> not 16
[20:43:44] <Thetawaves> SHIT
[20:43:49] * Thetawaves kills self
[20:43:55] <Tom_itx> [allbutonebits]
[20:44:08] <Thetawaves> no
[20:44:11] <jadew> so it's 16 * 256 + 10 * 16 + 9
[20:44:17] <Thetawaves> it's 0-15, not 1-16
[20:44:24] <jadew> 15* 256 lol
[20:44:27] <Tom_itx> jadew fails
[20:44:32] <Jan-> F hundred and B-ty seven!
[20:44:34] * Jan- loves hex
[20:44:40] <Tom_itx> sex?
[20:44:50] <Jan-> that too
[20:44:55] <Thetawaves> to tell you the truth, i actually use a programmer's calculator
[20:45:01] <Thetawaves> that does the conversion in 1 click
[20:45:06] <jadew> anyway, the point is that it's harder to understand hex and I want to be able to see the exact size of my proggie after I run make
[20:45:24] <jadew> Thetawaves, same here
[20:48:00] <jadew> just re-read the thing
[20:48:03] <jadew> [04:32.50] <Thetawaves> it's 0-15, not 1-16
[20:48:15] <jadew> still doesn't mean F means 16
[20:48:22] <jadew> if that's what you were implying
[20:48:33] <Thetawaves> $ avr-objdump nanovm -h | grep .text | awk '{print $3}' | some sed to convert to decimal
[20:48:46] <jadew> heh
[20:49:01] <jadew> yeah, I wanted to use a tool to parse objdump -h as well, but screw that
[20:49:11] <jadew> there must be a way to report it out of the box
[20:49:36] <Thetawaves> don't you have harder problems to figure out?
[20:49:59] <jadew> yeah, shrinking a 1.3k firmware into 1k
[20:50:13] <jadew> I need to see that number shrinking in the 10th base
[20:51:04] <Thetawaves> 1024 os 0x400
[20:51:04] <Thetawaves> is
[20:51:57] <Thetawaves> presumably you need to get it smaller than that
[20:52:07] <jadew> found something!
[20:52:21] <jadew> avr-size -C attiny13 main.bin
[20:52:38] <jadew> avr-size -C --mcu=attiny13 main.bin
[20:52:52] <jadew> it's perfect
[20:52:53] <Thetawaves> funny my avr-size doesn't even list -C as an option
[20:53:09] <jadew> it does for me
[20:53:12] <jadew> top row
[20:53:36] <jadew> this is so awesome
[20:55:34] <Thetawaves> the total?
[20:55:50] <jadew> what total?
[20:55:57] <Thetawaves> what does -C do?
[20:56:08] <jadew> it just displays it differently
[20:56:48] <Thetawaves> what section are you trying to get below 1k?
[20:57:27] <jadew> the program section
[20:57:28] <jadew> .text
[20:57:39] <Thetawaves> don't forget .data
[20:57:50] <Thetawaves> total size for .text and .data should be below 1k
[20:58:03] <jadew> ah, wonder why it's showing it differently then
[21:05:46] <Thetawaves> yeah, thats what is kind interesting about that program
[21:06:01] <Thetawaves> i didn't see a 'required program memory' field for just .text and .data
[21:06:12] <Thetawaves> can't rely on total, and would have to do manual addition
[21:06:18] <Thetawaves> lame
[21:08:47] <jadew> what do you mean? it shows everything
[21:09:37] <jadew> D:\code\AVR\bus_master>avr-size main.bin
[21:09:38] <jadew> text data bss dec hex filename
[21:09:38] <jadew> 14792 36 556 15384 3c18 main.bin
[21:10:26] <Thetawaves> .text + .data, if you were trying to compute something in a makefile or somesuch, you'd actually have to do addition
[21:10:56] <jadew> http://pastebin.com/fuqytSnq
[21:11:33] <jadew> that's with -C
[21:22:10] <Thetawaves> oh what the fuck
[21:22:11] <Thetawaves> why don't i have that option
[21:22:40] <Jan-> are these radio modules really UK£2.58 for two?
[21:22:40] <jadew> avr-size -v
[21:22:48] <jadew> my version is 2.19
[21:22:48] <Jan-> That's STUPIDLY cheap
[21:24:38] <jadew> what radio modules?
[21:24:39] <Jan-> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2X-New-NRF24L01-2-4GHz-Wireless-Transceiver-Module-Arduino-Microcontroller-/120883613778?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item1c25399052#ht_3529wt_1401
[21:24:39] <Jan-> Those ones
[21:24:39] <Thetawaves> 2.21
[21:24:39] <jadew> that's nice
[21:24:39] <jadew> Thetawaves, so yours is actually newer heh
[21:24:39] <Jan-> annoyingly they need 3.3v
[21:24:39] <Jan-> whereas the AVR needs 5
[21:24:39] <Thetawaves> sooooo annoying
[21:24:39] <Jan-> this is a bit of a pain
[21:24:39] <jadew> Jan-, you can run most of them at 3.3 as well
[21:24:39] <Thetawaves> i don't even like atxmega, because none of them run at 5v
[21:24:39] <Jan-> oh really?
[21:24:39] <Jan-> kickass
[21:24:39] <Thetawaves> yeah
[21:24:40] <Thetawaves> brown out voltage is 2.5-2.7
[21:25:06] <Thetawaves> 16mhz is max clock speed at 3.3v
[21:25:12] <Thetawaves> (btw)
[21:25:16] <Jan-> ohwell that should work OK
[21:25:27] <jadew> yeah, not a bad tradeoff
[21:25:33] <Jan-> slight concern over how to get that from a single lithium cell
[21:25:57] <Thetawaves> some kind of slick dc-dc?
[21:26:17] <Jan-> you can get those on ebay easily enough
[21:26:27] <Jan-> but I'm a bit concerned about size
[21:26:43] <jadew> the problem with that is that it takes a month + to get them
[21:26:55] <Jan-> especially as it needs to go both up and down
[21:27:18] <Jan-> since the lipo will peak out at 4.2 and die at what, 3.6? well just down then.
[21:28:20] <jadew> I'm sure you can make a regulator yourself
[21:28:51] <Jan-> I'd rather not
[21:29:50] <Thetawaves> a ldo should work
[21:30:06] <Jan-> a linear one? hm.
[21:30:33] <jadew> don't they waste the surplus energy?
[21:30:43] <Thetawaves> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-dropout_regulator
[21:30:57] <Jan-> hm the cells go down to 2.7v
[21:31:05] <Jan-> so a power supply would need to go up AND down.
[21:31:10] <Jan-> which makes life complicated.
[21:31:12] * Jan- scratches her head
[21:31:23] <jadew> use two in series
[21:31:35] <Jan-> size is an issue.
[21:32:08] <Jan-> Two cells might be smaller.
[21:32:17] <Thetawaves> well, you will need a boost-buck converter
[21:34:10] <Jan-> that's sort of complicated.
[21:34:47] <Thetawaves> why can't you buy some module to do the dirty work
[21:34:57] <Jan-> probably can
[21:34:58] <Jan-> looking on ebay
[21:36:33] <Jan-> small ones are 'spensive
[21:36:40] <Jan-> but it's doable one way or the other
[21:40:47] <Jan-> kickass: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pcs-AMS1117-3-3V-Power-supply-Module-/180907854423?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item2a1ef2ca57#ht_2062wt_1168
[21:41:18] <Jan-> But I think that's just an LDO
[21:41:35] <Thetawaves> that won't go up
[21:41:36] <Thetawaves> just down
[21:42:00] <Jan-> sure
[21:50:00] <Jan-> Hey, you can get tiny LDOs in TO92
[21:50:08] <Jan-> is that the super tiny one that's like 4mm round
[21:51:14] <jadew> I think you can
[21:54:12] <Jan-> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MICROCHIP-MCP1700-3302E-TO-V-REG-LDO-3-3V-250MA-TO-92-/251067261323?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3a74c6618b#ht_664wt_1144
[21:54:27] <Jan-> it's only a quarter of an amp, but that's enough to run the micro and RF modem
[22:03:34] <jadew> are there any include files for avr-as?
[22:03:49] <jadew> like definitions and crap, or do I have to make them myself?
[22:04:49] <Kevin`> there are. the normal headers from c work, or atmel has some that may be more convenient (although different)
[22:05:02] <jadew> ah, neat
[22:05:09] <jadew> thanks
[22:07:02] <Tom_itx> you want asm include files?
[22:07:07] <Tom_itx> they're in the studio subdirectories
[22:07:16] <jadew> if the .h ones work, I'm fine with that
[22:07:32] <Tom_itx> i've never tried them
[22:07:45] <Tom_itx> these are .def files iirc
[22:08:20] <Tom_itx> .inc
[22:08:30] <jadew> yeah, .inc sounds right
[22:08:35] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/studio/
[22:08:46] <Tom_itx> i posted a couple there for someone once
[22:08:46] <Tom_itx> if you need one...
[22:09:03] <jadew> nice, thanks
[22:09:08] <Tom_itx> what chip?
[22:09:20] <jadew> t13 atm
[22:10:33] <Tom_itx> refresh and download it
[22:10:48] <jadew> where are you getting them from?
[22:10:52] <jadew> the avr studio dirs?
[22:10:58] <Tom_itx> the studio install
[22:11:10] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:11:17] <Tom_itx> program files/atmel/.....
[22:11:37] <jadew> I located them, thank you
[22:11:46] <Tom_itx> under the assembler directories
[22:12:38] <jadew> C:\Program Files (x86)\Atmel\Atmel Studio 6.0\extensions\Atmel\AVRAssembler\2.1.51.46\avrassembler\include
[22:13:05] <Tom_itx> i don't have 6 on this pc :)
[22:35:38] <jadew> I fail to compile a simple asm program
[22:35:51] <jadew> I keep getting constant value required
[22:37:32] <jadew> yeah, now I know why
[22:37:39] <jadew> it's because the files don't get included
[22:37:53] <jadew> anyway, too tired to think anymore, night
[22:38:36] <Tom_itx> jadew need an example?
[23:40:28] <uklta> Having trouble programming a blank atmega328p. I keep getting error 0x14. I originally tried it with version 5.1 then I uninstalled and installed 6 and updated my AVR dragons firmware. Still getting 0x14 error
[23:53:26] <Microboter> what speed is your isp set to? and are you sure it isnt a pa?