#avr | Logs for 2012-08-27

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[01:35:59] <qartis> Thetawaves: I'm having the exact same problem, it seems
[01:45:25] <Thetawaves> HOLY SHIT I GOT IT TO FUCKIN WORK
[01:45:51] <Thetawaves> qartis, my problem was that the 0xF000 boot loader section address is the number of *words*
[01:46:09] <Thetawaves> so when you feed the address to your linker to specify the boot loader section, you have to double that
[01:46:27] <Thetawaves> also: if you are using a usbtiny as the programmer, it can't program more than 64k, so you won't be able to get it to work
[01:46:35] <Thetawaves> luckily i had a avrisp mkII handy
[01:47:25] <Thetawaves> qartis, if your spm instructions are just silently failing, good chance you are not really running from boot loader section
[01:47:29] <Thetawaves> w00t w00t w00t
[01:58:49] <qartis> Thetawaves: hmm, I'll try that...
[01:59:26] <Mr_Sheesh> How do people get their first Arduino going, if they don't otherwise have an AVR programmer? I cannot for the life of me find my dang STK500 so I guess, what, buy an Arduino kit off eBay? It'd at least get me going!
[02:00:37] <Thetawaves> buy a avrisp mkii
[02:00:49] <Thetawaves> or usbtiny kit if really cash strapped
[02:01:06] <qartis> Thetawaves: ... that fixed it
[02:01:08] <qartis> haha wow
[02:01:49] <Thetawaves> qartis, glad to hear that :D
[02:16:03] <Mr_Sheesh> Thetawaves - I'll look (had to fix something here) - TY!
[02:16:33] <Mr_Sheesh> And dang, I wanted to ask CapnKernel about LEDs, but never seem to catch them when they're ON, sigh.
[02:17:02] <megal0maniac> I started with an Arduino Uno and a cheap STK500 clone which doubled as a USB to TTL serial adapter
[02:17:38] <megal0maniac> Worked out pretty well
[02:20:30] <Mr_Sheesh> I don't have an Arduino, could build one from a kit, I suppose; ebay doesn't show any usbtiny kits (tho IDK what I'm looking for search terns wise :P) I can make my own PCBs, and have older AT90S8515s etc., but they don't help tons without the STK500 :P This move has SUCKED, cannot find anything that's not attached to me :/
[02:22:07] <megal0maniac> Also, Arduinos are bootloaded. You don't need a programmer
[02:23:00] <megal0maniac> Check out tom's programmer. Will program just about every 8bit AVR there is
[02:23:11] <megal0maniac> Link in the channel topic
[02:25:18] <Mr_Sheesh> The parts that're coming are plain ATMega328P's - STK500's are $12.99 on ebay? Could do that, sure cost me more when I bought mine, some years ago :) But an Arduino kit would be programmed, $15ish isn't too bad - And I could use it to program AVRs etc. till I find the STK500. So I guess I'm OK; I was thinking STK500s cost considerably more :P
[02:34:52] <megal0maniac> Mr_Sheesh: Personally, I'd rather get something like the AVRISP MKII or something that uses the same protocol. You have to jump through some hoops to get reasonable device support with atmel studio and an stk500 programmer
[02:35:03] <Mr_Sheesh> Hey, CapnKernel - Some time when you're on, I was told you maybe had LEDs for sale?
[02:37:51] <Mr_Sheesh> megal0maniac - Well, I'd been thinking of making an Arduino, the STK500 would get the first ATMega328P going but I wouldn't mind buying a kit so I could be unstuck, then I know we'll be using some ATMega8's too, the Arduino would program those too, and a friend has about 20ish projects for ATTiny15s/85s (Then SOME day I have a few projects of my own...) Arduino'd get me unstuck wrt programming
[02:37:51] <Mr_Sheesh> all of those I'd think?
[02:39:13] <Mr_Sheesh> Heh but the AVRISP MkII is only $12.99 on ebay so it's worth buying if it gets me unstuck, anyways :)
[02:39:36] <megal0maniac> Programming with an Arduino is dirty, but it will work I suppose. I'd opt for a real programmer.
[02:41:34] <MrTrick> has anyone had to make a really *small* 6-pin header before?
[02:41:46] <Mr_Sheesh> I hear that; Embedded stuff's what I -do-, the folks who helped in my last move messed my EE shop up badly, couldn't be helped tho. (I was hurt, couldn't move myself.)
[02:42:05] <MrTrick> I'm thinking of putting 3 pads on each side of the edge of the board, so that a clamp (clothes peg?) can attach to it...
[02:42:17] <Mr_Sheesh> MrTrick - How small are you thinking? There're lots of companies out there selling connectors, too
[02:42:43] <CapnKernel> Mr_Sheesh: Only sometimes
[02:42:54] <MrTrick> I did see a commercial one, but it was through-hole.
[02:43:09] <CapnKernel> And probably not for the next two months, as I'm heading back to my home in Australia for six weeks.
[02:43:28] <Mr_Sheesh> http://www.samtec.com/Documents/WebFiles/Current_Literature/SAMTEC_F211_CATALOG-hires.pdf is a huge connectors catalog
[02:44:12] <Mr_Sheesh> OK, CapnKernel - When you get back there, guy I know in Australia maybe could talk with you? I'm in US but interested - not in a hurry, I have a backlog to handle first :)
[02:44:37] <Mr_Sheesh> MrTrick - Mouser etc. have some hirose connectors, looked at those?
[02:44:38] <CapnKernel> ->PM
[02:44:43] <Mr_Sheesh> TY CapnKernel
[02:45:12] * MrTrick looks up hirose connectors
[02:45:21] <MrTrick> oh right, I see.
[02:46:32] <CapnKernel> Yeah, that's what I'd be using too
[02:47:04] <CapnKernel> And making a little adaptor board to go from the 0.1" header to the smaller one.
[02:47:54] <MrTrick> hmm. If I make a board I might be better off making a programming/debugging "bed" specifically for that PCB.
[02:50:51] <Mr_Sheesh> You might be able to use something like a part of a PCI type connector that'd clip onto 1.16" / 1.8mm PC board, also?
[02:51:00] <Mr_Sheesh> er instead, I mean
[02:51:46] <CapnKernel> It's not hard to get some "pogo pins" and make a little bed-of-nails adaptor.
[02:52:13] <CapnKernel> I did one for a tiny85 project of mine using veroboard and hot glue.
[02:52:33] <CapnKernel> It works very well
[02:53:23] <Mr_Sheesh> You just need enough pressure and no corrosion - I haven't used a clothes pin, pogo pins work on clean boards :)
[02:57:02] <Mr_Sheesh> Oh. Also, MrTrick - I've put test points onto PCBs before and then used micro clips to attack to those, before Pogo Pins were really available (I bought a LOT of SMD test points, years ago)
[02:57:19] <MrTrick> what sort of micro clip?
[02:57:40] <MrTrick> oh, the ones with the little hooks.
[03:02:29] <Mr_Sheesh> Yes
[03:03:06] <Mr_Sheesh> If you want to remove the "clip on" area off the board, that's another option (or if you use TH parts and can clip onto those)
[03:11:17] <Richard_Cavell> Some AVR chips are described as 6/8 pin
[03:11:21] <Richard_Cavell> So are they 6 or 8?
[03:11:48] <Richard_Cavell> The ATtiny13, for example
[03:12:15] <Mr_Sheesh> Some come in 6-pin versions but also in 8-pin packages and IIRC isn't the ATTiny13 one of those?
[03:12:36] <Richard_Cavell> So what are the extra 2 pins for?
[03:14:04] <Mr_Sheesh> Usually non connected - Datasheet would tell you
[03:14:27] <Richard_Cavell> Well I don't want one-quarter of my pins to be not connected
[03:14:38] <Richard_Cavell> that's like when you have a page that says "this page has been intentionally left blank"
[03:15:12] <Mr_Sheesh> Back in AT90 series days, I used AT90S8515s a bit - Came in PLCC-44 and DIP-40 - on the 44-pin package, you'd have 4 NC pins
[03:15:28] <Mr_Sheesh> Use an ATTiny15/45/85 then, get 2 more pins to use?
[03:16:51] <Richard_Cavell> no I want a 6-pin ATtiny13
[03:19:49] <MrTrick> itty bitty hacksaw?
[03:21:33] <Mr_Sheesh> Die under epoxy, you supply the bonding wires :p
[03:21:55] <Mr_Sheesh> Though IDK, buying ATTiny13 dies in onesies MAY be tough :)
[03:24:41] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Are you going to be using veroboard?
[03:25:02] <megal0maniac> Or making your own PCBs?
[03:26:15] <megal0maniac> ATtiny only comes in 8, 10 and 20 pin packages anyway. http://www.atmel.com/Images/2535s.pdf
[03:26:46] <megal0maniac> *ATtiny13
[03:30:29] <megal0maniac> Are you talking about "6 programmable IO lines?" Because the other 2 are VCC and GND. You need those
[03:30:46] <nomis> megal0maniac: there are 6 pin attinys :)
[03:31:04] <megal0maniac> nomis: Yes, there are also 14pin ones. But not the attiny13
[03:31:17] <nomis> ah, right.
[03:32:10] <Mr_Sheesh> Truly need to connect Vdd & GND or you have a rather inert AVR :) (IMO you need a decoupling cap too, I have been accused of overdoing the caps, but if I never have to fight another power decoupling problem that'll be toooo many times more :P)
[03:33:57] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: veroboard probably
[03:35:35] <Mr_Sheesh> OK, isn't the ATTiny13, but see where it has 10+ pin packages? This is why "Always Read The Datasheet!" is so many folks' mantra :P
[03:36:05] <megal0maniac> The ATtiny4/5/9/10 are the only 8bit uCs by Atmel which are 6pin. The 8pin packages with 2 NC lines are UDFN, and you won't be working with that on veroboard. The 4/5/9/10 chips aren't really an option for you since they don't come in DIP and won't fit in your veroboard. Again, I suggest the ATtiny45/85
[03:36:24] <megal0maniac> They come in DIP (which has 0.1" pin spacing)
[03:39:05] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: ATtiny25/45/85 are the smallest (8pin) chips which will fit in veroboard. You're pretty much wasting your time with anything else.
[03:39:32] <Richard_Cavell> What's wrong with ATtiny13
[03:39:35] <elektrinis> and you won't be working with that on veroboard.
[03:39:36] <elektrinis> why not
[03:39:37] <elektrinis> I do
[03:39:58] <Mr_Sheesh> IIRC it's the ATTiny15 that's in the same family with the 45 & 85? Unsure - less "room" in the '15 tho
[03:40:40] <Richard_Cavell> I want the smallest, simplest 8 bit AVR that will fit into Veroboard with a DIP package with 0.1" spaces between the legs
[03:40:41] <megal0maniac> The ATtiny will not fit on a veroboard
[03:40:45] <megal0maniac> http://goo.gl/1AtD3
[03:41:24] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Again, ATtiny25/45/85 are the only options for what you want
[03:41:53] <megal0maniac> *The ATtiny13 will not fit on a veroboard
[03:43:08] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Use the part finder, read the datasheets. The summaries will tell you what packages are available if you don't want to download the whole thing.
[03:43:15] <Tom_itx> it used to be on some chips with larger packages more io was actually brought out
[03:43:31] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure if that still holds true
[03:44:22] <megal0maniac> Tom_itx: Definitely not with the range we're talking about. Not sure about others. Even the 20 pin version of the ATtiny13 has 12 pins NC
[03:44:40] <Tom_itx> heh
[03:44:43] <Tom_itx> what a waste
[03:45:43] <megal0maniac> ATmega328P is like that though. There are 2 extra ADC pins on the smaller 32pin package
[03:46:02] <megal0maniac> And then an extra gnd and an NC pin
[03:46:09] <Richard_Cavell> 12 pins out of 20 NC?
[03:46:12] <Richard_Cavell> That's appalling
[03:46:15] <Mr_Sheesh> OK, it's the '25 not the '15. Time for me to give up and sleep :)
[03:47:00] <Richard_Cavell> For the tiny AVRs that won't fit in a Veroboard, are there tiny sockets available for them?
[03:47:50] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx has some nice breakout boards for them.
[03:48:19] <Richard_Cavell> What's the point of a breakout board for a tiny chip? Kind of defeats the purpose of having a tiny chip
[03:48:36] <CapnKernel> Are you honestly answering that question?
[03:48:48] <CapnKernel> Sorry, are you honestly asking that question?
[03:49:01] * megal0maniac starts looking for specing's tree
[03:49:04] <Richard_Cavell> More just a rhetorical question
[03:49:29] <CapnKernel> These days, the majority of devices are designed to be put into products using pick and place machines.
[03:50:00] <CapnKernel> When it comes to designing these parts, their use by hobbyists and boutique engineers (such as in #avr) is very much secondary.
[03:50:43] <CapnKernel> The purpose of a breakout board is so that people like you who use veroboard can still use such a chip.
[03:50:57] <CapnKernel> (Left with the nagging feeling I just got trolled)
[03:51:03] * megal0maniac begins beating self with tree
[03:51:16] <CapnKernel> Do me while you're at it.
[03:52:44] <Richard_Cavell> I'm not trolling you, I'm just raising the obvious problem of utilising something so tiny
[03:53:19] <CapnKernel> megal0maniac: In the same way one beats cars? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc
[03:54:30] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Open up your cellphone or laptop or computer or ipod and let us know how much veroboard or DIP ICs you find
[03:54:42] <CapnKernel> In a product, something that "tiny" is absolutely no problem at all. Just keep in mind *why* it was designed (and no, "so hobbyists could use it easily" isn't one of them)
[03:55:13] <Richard_Cavell> I want DIP because I'm soldering by hand
[03:55:22] <CapnKernel> Yes, and chips are designed to go into cellphones, laptops and computers, and ipods, not veroboard
[03:55:41] <CapnKernel> Yes, lots of reasons to like DIP if you're DIY.
[03:55:53] <CapnKernel> But it's not what those products were designed for.
[03:55:56] <CapnKernel> Oh I get it now
[03:55:58] * megal0maniac resorts to copy-paste
[03:56:06] <CapnKernel> You weren't actually looking for an answer
[03:56:07] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: ATtiny25/45/85 are the smallest (8pin) chips which will fit in veroboard. You're pretty much wasting your time with anything else.
[03:56:23] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Again, ATtiny25/45/85 are the only options for what you want
[03:56:25] <CapnKernel> It was just a moan about how those chips don't cater for your personal needs, dressed up as a question!
[03:56:51] * CapnKernel uses ATtinys in the SOIC package :-)
[03:57:03] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: atTiny13 seems to come in PDIP package. What's wrong with that?
[03:57:44] <CapnKernel> Richard_Cavell: You mean your soldering skills are weaker than an 11-year-old who has never soldered before? http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/06/playpause-3-assembly-and-programming.html
[03:57:52] * megal0maniac copy pastes some more
[03:57:57] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: The 8pin packages with 2 NC lines are UDFN, and you won't be working with that on veroboard. The 4/5/9/10 chips aren't really an option for you since they don't come in DIP and won't fit in your veroboard. Again, I suggest the ATtiny45/8
[03:58:00] <Richard_Cavell> CapnKernel: He he. Okay, maybe not that bad
[03:58:15] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: Okay dude I'll buy some 45s
[03:58:21] <Richard_Cavell> I'm waiting for my oscilloscope to arrive
[03:59:18] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: You're welcome to buy the ATtiny13 if that's what you want. You just won't be able to use it.
[04:03:29] <Tom_itx> a LA may do more good for you than a scope on microcontrollers
[04:03:43] <Richard_Cavell> What's an LA?
[04:04:16] <Tom_itx> http://www.saleae.com/logic/
[04:05:06] <Richard_Cavell> Looks exactly like an oscilloscope
[04:05:19] <Tom_itx> but it's different
[04:06:04] <Tom_itx> mind you, i have both and seldom get the scope out
[04:07:56] <Tom_itx> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9857
[04:08:02] <Tom_itx> there's another popular one
[04:08:55] <Tom_itx> money being no object, i'd get the 16 channel saleae
[04:09:05] <Richard_Cavell> An oscilloscope does me fine
[04:09:57] <Tom_itx> the saleae comes with several builtin protocols making it easier to debug
[04:10:14] <megal0maniac> You can also open tins with a knife, or use ethernet cable to connect speakers, but that's not what they're for
[04:10:39] * megal0maniac has been eyeing the saleae logic 8 for months
[04:10:57] <Tom_itx> stop eyeing it and get one
[04:11:05] * megal0maniac is poor :)
[04:11:29] <megal0maniac> I live in Africa. I'm not allowed to have money
[04:11:55] <Tom_itx> i'm middle class america, paying for everyone else. i don't either
[04:12:29] <Tom_itx> Currently supported are I2C, Async Serial, SPI, 1-Wire, CAN, I2S, PCM, UNI/O, Manchester, and MP Mode.
[04:13:10] <megal0maniac> Currently supported by most oscilliscopes are: Nothing, because they don't care about protocols.
[04:13:48] <Richard_Cavell> Wait until I'm smart enough to use a logic analyzer, then I'll get back to you
[04:13:54] <Tom_itx> the la displays the hex values where applicable too
[04:14:06] <Tom_itx> http://www.saleae.com/logic/features
[04:14:27] <Tom_itx> you plug it in just like a scope
[04:14:44] <Tom_itx> but it gives you information in a more useful way
[04:16:18] <megal0maniac> If you download the saleae software without the device, it runs a simulation so you can see how it works. It's actually simpler than a scope in some respects
[04:16:44] <Tom_itx> wb fred
[04:18:23] <Tom_itx> megal0maniac, you can also view samples someone else took
[04:19:06] <Tom_itx> that's how dean and i debugged the TPI protocol as he didn't have one at the time
[04:20:20] * vorsorken realizes how much more he should've taken advantage of his time using a Saleae while working for a grad student
[04:29:03] <megal0maniac> Nice, I didn't see that
[07:16:51] <megal0maniac> Yay! Got the Picoboard sort of working from an Arduino sketch
[07:17:09] <megal0maniac> The output looks right but it isn't
[07:17:52] <megal0maniac> Which means that Scratch shows some info, but it's incorrect and on the wrong channels
[07:18:31] <megal0maniac> Working with microcontrollers and programming, I've decided to eradicate the word "random" when talking about related stuff :)
[07:19:37] <smeding> heh
[07:19:55] <smeding> 'random' just means 'unpredictable from known information' :)
[07:22:48] <megal0maniac> The packet is the correct length, but the fact that data is going to the wrong channels means that something is shifted...
[07:25:02] <Richard_Cavell> I can't bloody sleep
[07:25:06] <RikusW> http://www.mikeash.com/pyblog/friday-qa-2012-08-24-things-you-never-wanted-to-know-about-c.html
[07:27:45] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: Mate I'm reading that the atTiny13 will fit into a DIP socket
[07:27:57] <megal0maniac> Okay
[07:29:43] <RikusW> megal0maniac: lets hope tommorow is the day ? ;)
[07:29:46] <megal0maniac> Atmel says it won't, I tend to go with what they say
[07:30:11] <megal0maniac> RikusW: I hope so :/ Took a day to get from Bloem to Cpt and now it's taking forever
[07:30:45] <megal0maniac> Had the same experience getting stuff from Plumstead, and that's a 20 minute drive
[07:30:50] <RikusW> maybe they have trouble locating your address ?
[07:31:21] <megal0maniac> Na, it goes straight to the Post Office. But it always takes ages. I just keep hoping that I'll get lucky one day :)
[07:32:15] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Firstly, where are you reading that? Please send me a link or something. Secondly, why are you so determined to get the attiny13?
[07:32:34] <Richard_Cavell> I just want the simplest AVR
[07:32:38] <Richard_Cavell> In DIP format
[07:32:48] <RikusW> why not m168 ?
[07:33:05] <RikusW> tiny's aren't all that much cheaper anyways....
[07:33:12] <megal0maniac> RikusW: Help us out here, is an ATtiny85 any more difficult to program than an ATtiny13?
[07:33:25] <megal0maniac> And does the ATtiny13 come in DIP?
[07:34:23] * RikusW go looking in some ds
[07:34:29] <karlp> what does atmel say about that megal0maniac?
[07:34:38] <megal0maniac> http://www.atmel.com/Images/2535s.pdf
[07:34:41] <karlp> they're kinda authoritive on what parts are in what packages.
[07:34:53] <megal0maniac> That's what I assumed
[07:35:17] <RikusW> t13 comes in DIP SOIC and MLF
[07:35:32] <RikusW> ISP programming is the same for all AVR's
[07:35:41] <smeding> what are you using as a definition of 'simplest' in 'simplest AVR'
[07:35:47] <smeding> all the 8bit AVRs are the same arch
[07:36:17] <smeding> they only vary in terms of memory (for which more is nicer if you're just playing around, so you're sure you don't have to worry about running out)
[07:36:22] <RikusW> I'll rather go for more IO pins....
[07:36:38] <smeding> and peripherals (which have no effect on simplicity if you don't use them, but it's nice to have the options if you do)
[07:37:03] <Richard_Cavell> Alright so should I buy mega328Ps then?
[07:37:04] <RikusW> messing with tiny's can be more complicated if you want to do for example UART
[07:37:10] <RikusW> or m168
[07:37:16] <smeding> i like the 328p
[07:37:18] <RikusW> there is m48 and m88 too
[07:37:36] <RikusW> smeding: had a look at m324A yet ?
[07:37:40] <smeding> nope
[07:37:44] <RikusW> its cheap
[07:37:47] <smeding> i don't browse AVRs mostly
[07:37:49] <Richard_Cavell> RikusW: Here's my story http://www.electro-tech-online.com/microcontrollers/130121-microcontroller-do-i-want-learn.html
[07:37:56] <smeding> i'm a hackerspace participant
[07:37:59] <RikusW> I got it cheaper than m328p in fact
[07:38:05] <smeding> the hackerspace stocks parts for me :p
[07:38:15] <megal0maniac> Making an LED blink is no more difficult on a ATmega1284P than on an ATtiny13.
[07:38:24] <Richard_Cavell> that's probably true megal0maniac
[07:38:42] <smeding> "The most popular are the MicroChip PIC series, with the Atmel AVR's in second place"
[07:38:46] <smeding> i don't think that's correct
[07:38:51] <smeding> i'm pretty sure AVR overtook PIC some time ago
[07:39:10] <smeding> "the Arduino is simply an AVR development system, and as it's principally C based could be a good choice for you?"
[07:39:25] <smeding> i also don't think that's correct, it's not 'principially C-based'
[07:39:47] <smeding> but it's true that people say it's silly that the AVR is just a 'toy', you can use it as a dev board
[07:39:55] <smeding> albeit a fairly overpriced one for what it does, IMO
[07:40:01] <smeding> the culture around the arduino is just really weird
[07:40:12] <Richard_Cavell> Well I want to program the damn thing and watch the blinking lights
[07:40:47] <megal0maniac> Get a Teensy
[07:41:04] <Richard_Cavell> I'm getting all this conflicting advice
[07:41:05] <Richard_Cavell> :(
[07:41:19] <smeding> buy something
[07:41:21] <smeding> learn to use it
[07:41:22] <smeding> fuck the haters
[07:41:30] <karlp> Richard_Cavell: an AVR is a pretty good choice, what avr doesn't really matter much
[07:41:36] <smeding> i don't see an issue with anything so long as your attitude towards it is right
[07:41:53] <smeding> only you can make the choice about what's best for you, and a lot of the differences don't matter
[07:42:03] <megal0maniac> They're all pretty much the same. I suggest a Teensy because it comes preloaded with blinking light program
[07:42:08] <karlp> teensy's are lovely
[07:42:10] <RikusW> Richard_Cavell: another thing AVR IS NOT Arduino....
[07:42:13] <Richard_Cavell> smeding: Well I'm thinking STK600 plus a DIP socket thingy and some atTiny45s and some atMega328Ps. Sound good?
[07:42:24] <RikusW> Arduino is just a layer on top of AVR
[07:42:24] <karlp> sure, that will be just fine
[07:42:25] <megal0maniac> YES
[07:42:43] <smeding> i'm not sure the stk600 is necessary but it'll work
[07:42:50] <smeding> what i would do is get some bare micros, some protoboard and an usbasp style programmer
[07:42:57] <smeding> the latter go for about €3 on ebay
[07:42:58] <megal0maniac> You could get 85 instead of 45, exactly the same chip with more memory
[07:43:10] <smeding> and are well-supported in avrdude
[07:43:24] <smeding> i'm not sure what the windows toolchain is like, i think most of the tools are the same
[07:43:29] <Richard_Cavell> smeding: I don't just want a programmer though, I want the AVR to be powered and have input/output
[07:43:33] * megal0maniac likes windows toolchain
[07:43:38] <megal0maniac> (winavr)
[07:44:01] * smeding dislikes any windows toolchain
[07:44:07] <RikusW> Richard_Cavell: why not use a bootloader with the AVR ?
[07:44:22] <Richard_Cavell> RikusW: I don't understand what that means
[07:44:36] <smeding> Richard_Cavell: why use a bootloader with the AVR?
[07:44:38] <smeding> :p
[07:44:42] <smeding> RikusW: ^
[07:44:44] <smeding> sorry
[07:44:44] <RikusW> you'll need a programmer to put it on initially, then you can program the AVR via its serial port
[07:44:53] <smeding> yeah but what does that get you
[07:45:09] <smeding> you plug in usb-serial instead of an usbasp, the wiring is a little different
[07:45:26] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: This is why Arduino is a good choice. It's a breakout board for the chip, supplies power, has an LED already, and you don't need to use the Arduino software to program it. The chip is yours to do what you want with
[07:45:27] <smeding> can you still get at things like fuses that way
[07:45:31] <megal0maniac> No
[07:45:39] <megal0maniac> Fuses aren't accessible from bootloader
[07:46:09] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: Well it's all very well for me to program the AVR but unless I can see the output I don't know if it worked
[07:46:24] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: What I want is something like LEDs for each output pin, just so I can see them turn on and off
[07:46:45] <smeding> solder your own thing! it's fun
[07:46:58] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: If you ignore the fact that it's an Arduino, then it's exactly what you want. By output, what do you mean? There's an LED on one of the pins. Everything else is broken out into headers and you can connect whatever you want
[07:47:03] <Richard_Cavell> smeding: What do I do if I suck at circuit design?
[07:47:38] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: Then you take other peoples' circuits and modify them to suit you
[07:47:58] <smeding> you learn circuit design
[07:48:04] <smeding> by building stuff like this
[07:48:06] <smeding> which is reasonably simple
[07:48:14] <megal0maniac> Nobody is "above" using breadboards. Especially when learning.
[07:48:18] <smeding> that, too
[07:48:25] <smeding> i've tested things on breadboards
[07:48:32] <smeding> i just dislike the way that people seem to use them nowadays
[07:48:48] <megal0maniac> smeding: And how is that?
[07:48:53] <smeding> i.e. use a circuit on a breadboard hooked up to an arduino in production, because they're scared of soldering
[07:48:59] <smeding> i've seen that before
[07:49:07] <megal0maniac> Haha!
[07:49:13] <Richard_Cavell> One good thing about the Arduino that's been overlooked is that it works with OS X
[07:49:22] <megal0maniac> So does everything else
[07:49:45] <megal0maniac> Get crosspack and you're on your way. Arduino is a java program bundled with crosspack
[07:50:29] <megal0maniac> Have you looked at Teagueduino?
[07:51:04] <Richard_Cavell> okay, there's yet another brand I haven't seen yet
[07:51:23] <smeding> they mostly seem to all be the same
[07:51:28] <karlp> they're all just an avr on a board,
[07:51:35] <karlp> pick the one with the colour you like the most
[07:51:45] <Richard_Cavell> I want the one where I can easily input data and see the output
[07:51:59] <karlp> "input" and "output" is a user preference
[07:52:16] <karlp> so that's up to you to add leds, or buttons, or screens, or thermos, or whatever
[07:52:18] * megal0maniac agrees with karlp
[07:52:20] <smeding> i'd say get an AVR and a breadboard
[07:52:23] <Richard_Cavell> Well it's not much use programming the AVR if it cannot take input or give me output
[07:52:31] <megal0maniac> It can
[07:52:35] <smeding> protoboard for more permanent things
[07:52:37] <megal0maniac> You just need to add it
[07:53:01] <smeding> Richard_Cavell: the point is that input/output capability is already there, but the kind you want will vary per application
[07:53:14] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: That's like saying "what use is a plug socket if it can't light up my room?"
[07:53:33] <megal0maniac> The point is, you have the pins. But they're not going to come with things pre-connected
[07:53:33] <Richard_Cavell> Not the same type of analogy
[07:53:34] <Richard_Cavell> T
[07:53:42] <Richard_Cavell> Okay I'm buying an Arduino kit right now
[07:53:48] <megal0maniac> Arduino kit?
[07:53:51] <Richard_Cavell> I'm gonna build it and there you go
[07:53:59] <megal0maniac> Link?
[07:55:13] <Blecha> What is the kit?
[07:55:22] <Blecha> does it do ftdi?
[07:57:43] <Blecha> Richard_Cavell?
[07:57:52] <Richard_Cavell> I'm asking you!
[07:58:28] <Blecha> I just got here.
[07:58:40] <Blecha> Ask again please.
[08:06:34] <megal0maniac> Get an Arduino Uno and Tom's programmer
[08:07:24] <megal0maniac> Then a breadboard and some jumpers and some stuff to connect
[08:12:25] <Blecha> megal0maniac: I use stripped cat5 for my jumpers :D
[08:14:00] <megal0maniac> Blecha: I spent hours at work making jumpers by soldering on header pins and heatshrinking them. But I have some CAT5 waiting to be stripped when the ones I have break :{
[08:15:22] * megal0maniac wants to try CAT6
[08:15:33] * OndraSterver wants to try dog7
[08:16:12] <megal0maniac> You could, but the throughput is terrible
[08:16:33] <Blecha> not on my dog
[13:57:39] <dekroning> hi all
[14:35:05] <OndraSterver> anybody tried Atmel Studio on Windows 8 yet?
[14:35:14] <OndraSterver> I am getting avrdbg process exited with core 0
[14:35:40] <OndraSterver> I think I will go back to 7 and wait for few months before they catch out all the bugs... just as I did when 7 came out and I was using Vista :P
[14:37:54] <Erlkoenig> whats the point of using win8? :D
[14:45:15] <OndraSterver> some new features compared to Win7
[14:46:11] <Erlkoenig> like a super cool UI? :D
[14:46:23] <Erlkoenig> i mean... any *real* features? *g*
[14:46:26] <OndraSterver> I don't mind the "Metro" ui
[14:46:34] <OndraSterver> yes, copy dialog finally received PAUSE button!
[14:46:37] <OndraSterver> and graph
[14:46:45] <Erlkoenig> what! sold.
[14:46:50] <OndraSterver> yes!
[14:46:58] <OndraSterver> also native support for mounting ISOs to virtual drives
[14:47:08] <Erlkoenig> multiple virtual desktops?
[14:47:11] <OndraSterver> no
[14:47:23] <Erlkoenig> seems to be an ultra difficult thing to implement
[14:47:25] <OndraSterver> that is just for linux users who haven't found how to use multiple windows without fullscreen
[14:47:34] <OndraSterver> on multiple screens
[14:48:00] <Erlkoenig> what? having like 30 windows open is very annoying without multi-desktop
[14:48:09] <OndraSterver> no
[14:48:10] <OndraSterver> it is not
[14:49:11] <Erlkoenig> how do you quickly find your window without clicking around in the taskbar?
[14:49:25] <OndraSterver> there is (originaly Sysinternal's) Desktops app, which has been acquired by windows
[14:49:30] <OndraSterver> by its icon in taskbar?
[14:49:31] <OndraSterver> ..
[14:49:46] <OndraSterver> unless the app is opened on your another desktop you have to use the same method
[14:49:49] <OndraSterver> I don't see the advantage
[14:49:56] <OndraSterver> except that you have the windows clustered across more screens
[14:50:04] <OndraSterver> instead just on one, in one program space
[14:50:13] <Erlkoenig> well if 10 apps have the same icon, because each one is a PDF, you have to search
[14:50:19] <OndraSterver> "so where is my atmel studio... is it on desktop 2? no... maybe 3?... no"
[14:50:20] <OndraSterver> no
[14:50:21] <OndraSterver> I don't
[14:50:34] <Erlkoenig> well *i* can remember that atmel studio is on desktop 2 :D
[14:50:52] <OndraSterver> if you have 30 windows, do you remember each of them?
[14:51:03] <Erlkoenig> of course, if you sort them
[14:51:12] <OndraSterver> http://img.ondraster.cz/up/app43fea.png
[14:51:20] <OndraSterver> I just hover on the app's icon
[14:51:21] <Erlkoenig> like - desktop 1 internet stuff, desktop 2 - IDE, editors, desktop 3 - docs
[14:51:23] <OndraSterver> and it lists all its windows
[14:51:23] <Erlkoenig> and the like
[14:51:25] <OndraSterver> since Vista
[14:51:26] <OndraSterver> ..
[14:51:34] <Erlkoenig> yeah, and you have to search
[14:51:37] <OndraSterver> why
[14:51:45] <OndraSterver> if you have 3 PDFs opened
[14:51:50] <Erlkoenig> and the sysinternals multi desktop tool doesnt work
[14:51:52] <OndraSterver> you still have to cycle through them
[14:52:12] <Erlkoenig> some people don't like switching windows with the mouse...
[14:52:17] <OndraSterver> alt-tab
[14:52:25] <OndraSterver> or winkey tab if you fancy that
[14:52:26] <Erlkoenig> alt tab is fun when having 30 windows ;)
[14:52:34] <OndraSterver> I had sometimes over 70 windows actuall
[14:52:35] <OndraSterver> y
[14:52:37] <OndraSterver> and yes, it is fun
[14:52:44] <OndraSterver> (16GB RAM helps with that easily)
[14:52:56] <Erlkoenig> it doesnt help tabbing for ages...
[14:53:02] <OndraSterver> you know, you can just simply go to taskbar
[14:53:04] <OndraSterver> and switch to it
[14:53:15] <Erlkoenig> many people want to switch windows with the keyboard
[14:53:23] <OndraSterver> and how do you do that on linux exactly
[14:53:30] <OndraSterver> how does multidesktop help that
[14:53:43] <OndraSterver> when you have 30 windows opened, on your 3rd screen with docs
[14:53:58] <Erlkoenig> at least you dont have as many windows on your 3rd screen
[14:54:08] <OndraSterver> ...
[14:54:13] <OndraSterver> I am sorry, but I am not buying your argument
[14:54:28] <MotionObserver> chaps
[14:54:32] <Erlkoenig> switching to another desktop is superfast on linux (as opposed to windows multidesktop utils), and then you only have a few windows to search
[14:55:32] <MotionObserver> smallest/cheapest avr that will carry out a list of flashing light sequences? or can any avr handle this? I'm pretty new to electronics
[14:55:37] <Erlkoenig> the existence of a lot of multidesktop utils for windows shows that apparantly a few people like multidesktops... unfortunately they all dont work well
[14:55:45] <OndraSterver> MotionObserver, any
[14:55:49] <OndraSterver> as long as it has sufficient amount of pins
[14:55:54] <MotionObserver> ok thanks,
[14:55:56] <OndraSterver> 8 pins = 30 LEDs
[14:56:23] <MotionObserver> cheapest, most reliable etc. ? can some drop me a product name or two to get me started :D
[14:58:52] <OndraSterver> MotionObserver, how much flash do you need?
[14:59:02] <OndraSterver> and how many LEDs?
[14:59:10] <OndraSterver> and what package :)
[14:59:17] <OndraSterver> (aka size = small, regular, big)
[14:59:20] <OndraSterver> (+ SMD/DIP)
[14:59:32] <OndraSterver> size = tiny, small, regular, big*
[14:59:37] <MotionObserver> i don't know what the means, but one LED, and i would like to give it a loop of flashing commands in different patterns
[14:59:45] <OndraSterver> oh a single LED?
[14:59:49] <OndraSterver> I thought you wanted many
[14:59:53] <MotionObserver> smallish package!
[14:59:58] <OndraSterver> Attiny4 :)
[15:00:03] <MotionObserver> okidoke!
[15:00:04] <OndraSterver> or attiny10, same package but more flash
[15:00:08] <MotionObserver> thanks
[15:00:09] <OndraSterver> np
[15:00:11] <MotionObserver> what is flash?
[15:00:13] <OndraSterver> but beware, it is... TINY
[15:00:18] <OndraSterver> either 256B or 512B
[15:00:22] <OndraSterver> the attiny10 has 1kB
[15:00:28] <MotionObserver> ah i see
[15:00:29] <OndraSterver> either no RAM at all or few bytes
[15:00:44] <OndraSterver> but it is small like 24 gauge piece of wire :D
[15:00:53] <MotionObserver> and how do i give it a list of instructions ? :P
[15:00:56] <OndraSterver> like three 0402 (0603?) resistors next to each other
[15:00:58] <MotionObserver> does it use C
[15:01:00] <OndraSterver> programm it
[15:01:02] <OndraSterver> yes
[15:01:08] <OndraSterver> but ... C is a quite hard on memory space :D
[15:01:17] <OndraSterver> I'd suggest going for ASM there, it is not that hard for your purpose
[15:01:24] <OndraSterver> (I wouldn't dare to write USB stack in ASM though)
[15:01:31] <OndraSterver> although... I could!
[15:01:35] <MotionObserver> what is USB stack :3
[15:01:45] <OndraSterver> nothing you should be concerned about :D
[15:01:57] <MotionObserver> I'm slightly familiar with C++ so i might stick with C for now :P
[15:01:58] <mindw0rk> It's a stack of usb's!
[15:02:01] <mindw0rk> :)
[15:02:10] <OndraSterver> (:
[15:02:11] <MotionObserver> aha
[15:02:12] <OndraSterver> ;D
[15:02:22] <OndraSterver> no, not really... :P
[15:02:30] <mindw0rk> just kidding, man
[15:02:36] <MotionObserver> ill let you know how my project goes :P
[15:02:56] <OndraSterver> I am driving 3072 LEDs with mega128a, communicating with PC via USB
[15:03:01] <OndraSterver> all written in assembler
[15:03:07] <OndraSterver> about 2kB? of code
[15:03:08] <OndraSterver> I think
[15:03:26] <MotionObserver> wwowow
[15:03:39] <OndraSterver> well, 2kB of code on 128kB device lol
[15:03:40] <MotionObserver> is assembler ASM
[15:03:43] <OndraSterver> yes
[15:03:57] <MotionObserver> ?is it a low language
[15:04:02] <OndraSterver> the lowest, yes
[15:04:11] <MotionObserver> ahh cool :)
[15:04:15] <OndraSterver> it directly translates to the "binary stuff that CPU understands"
[15:04:24] <OndraSterver> like I said, it is not that hard
[15:04:34] <MotionObserver> is it basically just binary?
[15:04:44] <OndraSterver> in human readable form
[15:06:40] <MotionObserver> ahh :)
[15:06:54] <MotionObserver> i might jump to that to refine my project later on
[15:07:05] <MotionObserver> i like to keep everything really simple ! :P
[15:44:31] <xaxes> hey all.. I have a general question about flash .. I tried to write a hex file ( ~1500 byte) to an atmega16 using ponyser. But I got a verification failure.. so I tried to increase the delay (it took about 6 hours, but I wanted to be sure to get it working), but again a verification error on byte ~0x3XXX .. I tried another atmega, with similiar behaviour (failure on 0x3XXX) .. what could this cause?
[15:45:25] <xaxes> or is it likely to fail in the same "area" on two controller?
[15:45:58] <xaxes> the third atmega16 got written without failures.. maybe this was luck.. but Im not sure..
[15:46:56] <Erlkoenig> use a better programmer...
[15:47:24] <Erlkoenig> this kind of bitbang programmer is somewhat unpredictable...
[15:47:50] <xaxes> Erlkoenig: yeah, Id build a JTAG-ICE programmer, but I need to programm the controller of it ;)
[15:48:44] <Erlkoenig> then you might have to spend $10 to buy a programmer...
[15:48:48] <xaxes> sadly I made a mistake and choosed the wrong clock source for the working atmega16.. but Im just wondering if this is a frequent seen behaviour to fail in almost the same area (on 6-hour burning too)
[15:49:41] <xaxes> Erlkoenig: I want to learn while building such things (And have learned many things ;) )
[15:50:18] <Erlkoenig> now you learnt that pc's serial and parallel ports are bad for bitbanging :D
[15:50:30] <xaxes> hehe, yeah lessons learned :D
[15:50:36] <Roklobsta> hey kids, updated avrdude for win32 on helix.air.net.au
[15:50:44] <Roklobsta> latest svn trunk
[15:50:50] <Erlkoenig> if the failures dont occur on the exact same location, it's probably some random failure
[15:51:36] <specing_> "(it took about 6 hours, but I"
[15:51:45] <specing_> WTF LOL 6 hours for 1500 bytes?
[15:51:57] <specing_> How is that even possible?
[15:52:18] <Erlkoenig> with high delays, no problem :D
[15:52:28] <xaxes> specing_: hehe, Im fairly new to this stuff, tried it before with a dasa3 programmer which was very unreliable, so I just used the values of the old thing ;)
[15:52:59] <Erlkoenig> buy a real programmer, buy a real programmer ....
[15:53:05] <specing_> I bootstrapped my usbtinyISP just fine with 3 5V zeners and 3 2k resistors on the serial port...
[15:53:22] <specing_> xaxes: dasa worked perfectly fine for me
[15:53:50] <specing_> 10b/s but no errors
[15:54:22] <specing_> Roklobsta: we unix gods do not care
[15:54:37] <Roklobsta> that's ok
[15:54:55] <Roklobsta> i get plenty of downloads for it anyway
[15:55:15] <xaxes> specing_: yeah, it was a very bad design.. it's called "4-part programmer" .. just got rebuked in another channel for using such crap ^^
[15:55:35] <specing_> 4-part programmer?
[15:55:40] <specing_> 4-part?
[15:55:55] <specing_> A programmer made of 4 parts?
[15:56:14] <xaxes> http://www.franksteinberg.de/4TAP.htm ;)
[15:56:16] <specing_> Note: if it is stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.
[15:56:28] <xaxes> it worked.. sometimes ;)
[15:56:39] <Erlkoenig> at least for xaxes it doesnt seem to work too good :P
[15:57:06] <specing_> xaxes: looks hard to make
[15:57:11] <specing_> xaxes: mine was simpler...
[15:57:20] <xaxes> mhh okay.. so I gonna wait for the next atmegas and check whether they will get programmed without failures
[15:57:47] <xaxes> specing_: why you don't pointed me to your constructionplans? :p ;)
[15:57:54] <Roklobsta> is it 'der' or 'die' or 'das' bitenbangen?
[15:58:01] <specing_> xaxes: ?
[15:58:12] <specing_> xaxes: I got it off the net'
[15:58:18] <specing_> 3 years ago
[15:58:19] <Erlkoenig> Roklobsta: das bitbangen natürlich :D
[15:58:28] <specing_> I've since torn it down (I think)
[15:58:39] <Erlkoenig> wie bei allen verben
[15:58:41] <specing_> I only used it to bootstrap a serious programmer
[15:58:42] <Roklobsta> they didn't teach us the gender of bitbaging in german class at school
[15:58:53] <specing_> I use a 6kb/s+ USB programmer
[15:58:58] <specing_> now
[15:59:06] <Erlkoenig> well the subject form of every verb is neutrum ;)
[15:59:19] <Erlkoenig> das laufen, das springen, das programmieren etc *g*
[15:59:38] <xaxes> ah okay :) I need it for bootstrapping too.. but thank you all for your help!
[15:59:57] <xaxes> Erlkoenig: do you have a german class? ;)
[16:00:02] <Erlkoenig> i am german. :D
[16:00:17] <Erlkoenig> and very happe to not have german classes anymore :D
[16:00:45] <xaxes> hehe :)
[16:01:17] <xaxes> so okay, gonna test something.. again: thank you,.. will stay here and hopefully not ask too much beginner stuff ;)
[17:17:48] <Jordan_U> What is the signifigance of the Real Time Clock? What advantage(s) does it have over using any other timer with apropriate scaling?
[17:19:08] <Casper> nothing
[17:19:21] <Casper> it's just that the RTC is easy to divide
[17:19:42] <Casper> and since it's slower it use less ressources and have less risk of having a timer overflow
[17:28:55] <Mr_Sheesh> Hey all - on these two AVRISP mkii-ish programmers, http://www.ebay.com/itm/140735113408 vs. http://www.ebay.com/itm/140714347927 for a "get unstuck" programmer, anyone see anything better about one or the other?
[17:39:11] <Jordan_U> Casper: So, if I'm not worried about power consumption, am willing to do a little math, and am going to be generating interrupts and handling them once per second (or more frequently) for timing purposes, I'm fine with non RTC timers?
[17:39:53] <Casper> yes
[17:40:04] <Casper> but making it divide well can be a challenge
[17:53:23] <Jordan_U> Thanks. We don't need high precision, as long as we can get "about 2 seconds of hysteresis" and run for "about 3 minutes". Hopefully that will mean that we can make due with a timer that doesn't divide well. One thing that is important is consistency (not slowing down or speeding up by more than about 5% due to temperature or other changes).
[17:53:52] <smeding> 5% seems easily attainable with a crystal oscillator
[17:54:34] <smeding> Jordan_U: RTCs have a spec for keeping reasonably accurate time over longer periods, afaik
[19:13:11] <oinkoink-> hai
[19:13:24] <oinkoink-> can I get feedback on this tiny circuit? http://bit.ly/TlnYj0
[19:15:47] <w|zzy> You need to power the avr
[19:19:40] <oinkoink-> oh yeah, no worries :)
[19:20:36] <oinkoink-> I just drew the "significant" port of the AVR.. is the circuit fine though? Will there be some problem when the mosfect switches off?
[19:21:31] <w|zzy> I wish i could help. never used a circuit like that.
[19:22:00] <oinkoink-> okidoo!
[19:24:12] <Tom_itx> power is prety significant
[19:24:23] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: using an n-mosfet to switch the high side of the load there may cause interesting issues
[19:24:56] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[19:25:05] <oinkoink-> Tom_itx, I agree. Sorry for the confusion. I know where all the other parts connect on the AVR :)
[19:25:07] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, oh?
[19:25:24] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, can you define 'interesting'? :)
[19:25:42] <Tom_itx> it should switch the low side
[19:25:47] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: it switches on based on the voltage difference from the low side, which is variable based on the load
[19:25:56] <Tom_itx> p channel is for the high side
[19:26:11] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: in the circuit you have there, you could just move it to the other side of the led
[19:26:13] <Tom_itx> and are hard to find in logic level gates
[19:26:20] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, gotcha, let me redraw that.
[19:26:53] <Tom_itx> also some sort of current limiting to the laser diode
[19:27:09] <Tom_itx> unless you plan to set it with the 317
[19:27:37] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, refresh your page!
[19:27:51] <oinkoink-> Tom_itx, Yep, the enclosed 317 stuff should limit the current.
[19:28:32] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: that looks sane, aside from me not wanting to look up or think how to use an lm317 and of course it wasting some power
[19:28:46] <oinkoink-> roger that
[19:28:47] <oinkoink-> time to build :D
[19:29:04] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: oh, you are using this at a low switching speed, right?
[19:29:07] <Tom_itx> Kevin` it's only hooked to 5v it's not gonna waste too much
[19:29:18] <Tom_itx> will it work from a 5v supply?
[19:29:19] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, no, I want to go as fast as possble.. why?
[19:29:49] <oinkoink-> Tom_itx, should.. LM317 uses 1.25v, leaving 3.75v
[19:30:10] <Tom_itx> what's Vf on the diode?
[19:30:19] <Tom_itx> and the loss thru the mosfet?
[19:30:19] <oinkoink-> *looks up
[19:30:24] <Tom_itx> which won't be much
[19:30:29] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: the resistor on the fet gate will limit your switching speed. I know it's intended to protect the mcu from overcurrent, but overcurrent is based mostly on heating and output validity, and can normally be fudged a bit (eg, 0r), depending on your design requirements
[19:31:23] <oinkoink-> Tom_itx, I don't have the diode's specs, and as to the mosfet, I'm not sure.. what would 'loss thru' be usually labeled as? This is the one I'm using: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N7000.pdf
[19:31:37] <Kevin`> rdson
[19:31:46] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, The resistor that I have there is to protect the mosfet as it doesn't take more than 3.5v, according to datasheet :\
[19:31:52] <Tom_itx> just try it and see
[19:31:57] <Tom_itx> if not it will be dim
[19:32:01] <Tom_itx> i suppose
[19:32:13] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: in that case, run your mcu at the desired voltage instead
[19:32:21] <Tom_itx> if it doesn't turn on, try a regular led in place of it to test the rest of it
[19:32:24] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, gate treshhold voltage: 3v :\
[19:32:33] <Tom_itx> you're pushing it
[19:32:36] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: or use a level translator capable of equivalent or higher current (eg, an fet driver)
[19:32:55] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: that's the switching voltage, no? you have to be higher than that
[19:33:09] <Tom_itx> Kevin` i think it is
[19:33:17] <Tom_itx> he linked the mosfet yesterday
[19:33:19] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: also, it's not a flat drop, the resistance changes on a curve vs voltage
[19:33:28] <oinkoink-> hm
[19:33:28] <Kevin`> let me look at the datasheet
[19:34:09] <Tom_itx> http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N7000.pdf
[19:34:13] <Tom_itx> i think that's it
[19:34:13] <Kevin`> the maximum gate-source voltage is stated on the first page as 20v
[19:34:27] <Tom_itx> oh i didn't see ^^
[19:34:58] <oinkoink-> oh
[19:34:59] <Kevin`> I would personally switch that at the full 5v of the mcu
[19:35:13] <Kevin`> still looking a bit though
[19:35:33] <oinkoink-> look at the "Gate Threshold Voltage"
[19:35:39] <oinkoink-> 2nd page
[19:36:14] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: look at the table below that, static drain-source on-resistance
[19:36:15] <oinkoink-> oh, but you're right.. "Gate-Source Voltage - Continuous: +/- 20"
[19:37:17] <Tom_itx> continuous current may not be enough either
[19:37:19] <Tom_itx> 115ma
[19:37:25] <Tom_itx> 800 pulsed
[19:37:35] <Tom_itx> you said 200ma yesterday?
[19:38:49] <oinkoink-> I don't think I was around yesterday, heh
[19:38:57] <oinkoink-> 115 ma is crap though
[19:39:00] <oinkoink-> but yeah, this will be pulsed
[19:39:01] <Tom_itx> well, last time you posted it
[19:39:06] <oinkoink-> very fast pulses
[19:39:12] <oinkoink-> so 800 should be plenty
[19:39:15] <Tom_itx> keep an eye on that
[19:39:18] <oinkoink-> oh well, only one way to know, right? :D
[19:39:38] <Tom_itx> clip a piece of alum on it
[19:39:57] <oinkoink-> on the mosfet? as a heatsink?
[19:39:58] <Tom_itx> is it a to92 or sot23?
[19:40:03] <Tom_itx> yes
[19:40:09] <oinkoink-> to092
[19:40:10] <Tom_itx> they made clips for to92
[19:40:12] <oinkoink-> to-92
[19:40:20] <oinkoink-> how about a paper clip?
[19:40:25] <Tom_itx> alum
[19:40:32] <oinkoink-> okay
[19:40:39] <Tom_itx> better heat sink
[19:41:25] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: be careful of the lm317's response time with this design, i'm not sure how it will behave
[19:42:14] <Tom_itx> that part looks minimal for the job i think
[19:43:40] <Kevin`> I am a bit curious why you didn't just use a resistor in place of that block. laser diodes are still diodes right, and thus nearly constant voltage?
[19:44:50] <Tom_itx> i think he's busy stirring the blue smoke around
[19:45:41] <Tom_itx> oh crap, i gotta make up some cables
[19:50:25] <tmpvar> what is the command for getting logs?
[19:51:26] <Kevin`> tmpvar: ssh root@192.168.23.1 logread
[19:51:30] <Kevin`> tmpvar: context.
[19:51:53] <tmpvar> i mean, for this irc channel
[19:54:55] <Tom_itx> zlog
[19:55:15] <Tom_itx> or !thislog
[19:55:19] <Tom_itx> !thislog
[19:55:20] <tobbor> This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23avr-2012-08-28.html
[19:56:01] <tmpvar> awesome, thank you
[20:03:53] <tmpvar> what does a typical low pass circuit for AVCC -> VCC look like?
[20:11:52] <Kevin`> tmpvar: lc, fairly low values
[20:12:02] <Kevin`> tmpvar: the datasheet actually has an example
[20:13:16] <oinkoink-> Kevin`, correct.. I just went with the first/simplest constant current design I saw: http://www.rog8811.com/laserdriver.htm
[20:18:07] <tmpvar> ok, so something like Vcc -> resistor -> AVcc -> cap -> GND?
[20:18:40] <Kevin`> tmpvar: might work. the datasheet recommends an inductor though
[20:20:34] <Kevin`> oinkoink-: it occurs to me that the voltage at adj on your circuit (and that one) has no dependency on the current, since there's no resistor in series. I don't get it.
[20:23:32] <Thetawaves> 9p_pgm.c:89:1: warning: accessing program memory with data memory address
[20:23:32] <Thetawaves> pgm_mem
[20:23:36] <Thetawaves> what a curious warning
[20:25:32] <Kevin`> Thetawaves: i'd say that's a HELPFUL warning =p
[20:26:08] <Thetawaves> i'm trying to call some 'data' defined with PROGMEM
[20:27:12] <Thetawaves> (*((init_func)pgm_mem))();
[20:27:17] <Thetawaves> it does not like that
[20:27:28] <Thetawaves> __attribute__ ((aligned (256))) uint8_t pgm_mem[16384] PROGMEM = {0};
[20:28:01] <jadew> woot!
[20:28:10] <jadew> I reprogrammed the mcp2200 with custom firmware
[20:28:19] <jadew> now I have fixed baud rate
[20:29:19] <Thetawaves> Kevin`, how should i get rid of this warning?
[20:29:57] <Thetawaves> 9p_pgm.c:87:15: error: called object ‘*(uint8_t *)&pgm_mem’ is not a function
[20:30:02] <Thetawaves> ahh who the hell cares
[20:30:05] <Thetawaves> just do it already!
[20:30:05] <Kevin`> Thetawaves: too many ('s and macros, at too late in the day, for me to sort out what the code is doing :)
[20:30:26] <Kevin`> you aren't by chance using the c++ compiler?
[20:30:32] <Thetawaves> no
[20:30:53] <Thetawaves> c99
[20:31:22] <Kevin`> it is indeed curious it would consider that an error
[20:32:04] <Thetawaves> the error was produced by: (*(pgm_mem))();
[20:33:37] <Kevin`> isn't pgm_mem already a pointer?
[20:33:58] <Thetawaves> yeah, so should have to dereference it to run it, no?
[20:34:05] <Kevin`> although it's late and i'm bad at c pecularities :)
[20:34:52] <Kevin`> don't you run pointers? you wouldn't be calling the value at ram-address-pgm_mem
[20:35:14] <Kevin`> ..which might explain the original warning
[20:35:35] <Thetawaves> ok, no dereference
[20:35:36] <Thetawaves> 9p_pgm.c:87:12: error: called object ‘pgm_mem’ is not a function
[20:35:49] <Thetawaves> (pgm_mem)();
[20:41:34] <Kevin`> ((void (*function)(void))pgm_mem)(); - probably messed up, but you get the idea
[20:41:52] <Kevin`> yeah, definitely messed up
[20:41:58] <Kevin`> I hate c sometimes
[20:47:45] <Thetawaves> i gotta go, thanks for your help
[21:06:33] <kdkld> Can I program an blank ATMEGA 328p without an oscillator?
[21:08:18] <bsdfox> kdkld, as long as you didnt set the fuse to require one
[21:08:35] <bsdfox> if it's new, yes. it will default to internal rc osc
[21:08:49] <kdkld> that's what I though. I am using the AVR ISP shield from sparkfun with the AVR dragon and for some reason it doesn't see the chip
[21:08:50] <kdkld> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11168
[21:09:03] <kdkld> It reads the target voltage fine
[21:09:08] <kdkld> I select the correct target
[21:14:13] <kdkld> when I set the clock rate all the way to low the volltage rading becomes zero
[21:17:41] <kdkld> Why would the voltage read fine and then suddenly not?
[21:18:40] <Tom_itx> is this on a breadboard?
[21:19:55] <kdkld> No Tom, I have it hooked up into an AVR ISP Shield from sparkfun, which is plugged into an Arduino so I can have voltage
[21:19:55] <kdkld> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11168
[21:20:10] <kdkld> then I have a 6pin ISP connector going from the shield to the dragon
[21:20:43] <Tom_itx> oh
[21:20:50] <Tom_itx> did you run power to the dragon isp?
[21:20:56] <Tom_itx> maybe you don't need to on that one
[21:20:57] <kdkld> So which I initially apply settings it reads the target voltage fine (i verified chip oritentation and voltage measurements with a multimeter)
[21:21:16] <Tom_itx> the dragon isp isn't powered by default
[21:21:26] <kdkld> but as soon as I hit "Read Device ID" it says the target voltage is below the min
[21:21:38] <kdkld> right, I am getting power from the Arduino 5v
[21:21:52] <Kevin`> kdkld: did you connect vtg?
[21:22:04] <kdkld> vtg?
[21:22:23] <Kevin`> on the dragon
[21:22:32] <Kevin`> it's the pin that measures the voltage
[21:22:40] <Kevin`> and sets io voltage
[21:22:57] <Tom_itx> that was kinda what i suggested
[21:23:07] <Tom_itx> not in so many words
[21:23:59] <kdkld> no I didn't set anything on the Dragon. I shouldn't need to if I am using external power should I ?
[21:26:16] <kdkld> Here is a picture of the setup http://i.imgur.com/sVKP5.jpg
[21:29:29] <Tom_itx> jtag?
[21:30:54] <kdkld> ....wowwww
[21:30:58] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/attiny2313/attiny7.jpg
[21:31:03] <kdkld> fuckkkk
[21:31:03] <Tom_itx> that's the isp plug
[21:31:04] <kdkld> that's not an isp...
[21:31:14] <Tom_itx> however it should work if the signals are correct
[21:31:27] <Tom_itx> and see the power connector?
[21:31:38] <Tom_itx> dragon doesn't supply power thru the isp
[21:32:03] <kdkld> Right!! I am getting power from the Arduino
[21:32:22] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/dragon/dragon3a.jpg
[21:32:23] <kdkld> If I probe the GND and VCC pins right next to the XTAL 1 and 2 I get 5 v
[21:32:25] <Tom_itx> :D
[21:33:06] <kdkld> so I need to use the power from the dragon?
[21:33:20] <Tom_itx> no but you may want isp
[21:33:25] <Tom_itx> try it first
[21:34:00] <Tom_itx> remember the dragon isn't buffered
[21:34:06] <Tom_itx> you can blow it
[21:35:18] <kdkld> great
[21:36:05] <Tom_itx> not a threat :) just a heads up
[21:36:55] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Does the STK600 allow for in-circuit programming by plonking pins into the relevant parts of the breadboard or PCB?
[21:37:41] <kdkld> It's so sad I was so close to getting this I thought
[21:37:43] <Tom_itx> i didn't design it and don't own one. you should contact the oem and ask
[21:38:07] <Richard_Cavell> What programmers do you have available?
[21:38:24] <Richard_Cavell> I want to program atTinys
[21:38:30] <Richard_Cavell> while they're in-circuit
[21:38:33] <Tom_itx> mine?
[21:38:37] <Richard_Cavell> yep
[21:38:44] <Tom_itx> i just made another batch last night
[21:38:50] <Tom_itx> building cables as i sit here
[21:39:07] <Richard_Cavell> so show me what you've got that will allow me to program atTinys in circuit
[21:39:29] <Tom_itx> i did already
[21:39:39] <kdkld> Hey Tom, you said the JTAG 10 pin should work for 10 pin ISP?
[21:40:06] <Tom_itx> kdkld i think the isp pinout is taken from the jtag header but not in the proper isp order
[21:40:13] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: The URL has scrolled off my screen
[21:40:13] <Tom_itx> you will need to find the right signals
[21:40:19] <Tom_itx> zlog
[21:40:25] <Tom_itx> check yesterday's log
[21:42:53] <Tom_itx> ok those are done
[23:41:04] <tomatto> what for is connecting one pin to negative and positive differential input of adc?
[23:46:35] <Casper> tomatto: to take differential signal
[23:46:48] <Casper> in theory it help to lower the noise
[23:47:17] <nevdull> tomatto: i think you have two input pins to allow for positive, negative, or differential input signals and they can be used to set different analog ranges i think
[23:48:21] <tomatto> nevdull: you can connect one input pin to both of them
[23:48:57] <tomatto> Casper: and in in practice?
[23:49:16] <Casper> in practice it's not true differential on avr
[23:49:45] <Casper> it basically sample one, then sample the second, then do the differential in "software" (well, hardware, but math, not true differential)
[23:49:49] <nevdull> tomatto: maybe in that case its using an internally set Vref
[23:51:13] <tomatto> Casper: i see. btw. do you know about something similar device to attiny45, but with USART and more than 8 pins?
[23:51:28] <Casper> check their parametric table
[23:52:06] <nevdull> attiny2313
[23:52:20] <nevdull> 20pin i believe with USART
[23:53:51] <tomatto> nevdull: attiny2313 hasn't differential, neither ADC and small flash :(
[23:54:24] <nevdull> there's the attiny4313 but probably only has more flash w/o adc
[23:55:05] <tomatto> Casper: is somewhere any inventory for all?
[23:55:24] <nevdull> you can move up from attiny to atmega an dprobably get both with something like the atmega644p or atmega1284p etc
[23:56:01] <tomatto> nevdull: i used atmega8, but it hasn't differential option
[23:57:16] <nevdull> go to http://www.atmel.com/products/microcontrollers/avr/default.aspx
[23:57:25] <nevdull> and click on the parameters tab. then bookmark it. :)