#avr | Logs for 2012-08-26

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[00:45:20] <aarobc> does avrdude not work with atmega8u2 then?
[00:58:58] <aarobc> halp?
[01:08:49] <theos> aarobc http://8515.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=688637
[01:09:32] <aarobc> oh nice, so now it's only complaining about that it cant find the programmer
[01:09:45] <theos> :P
[01:10:23] <aarobc> Is there a way to fix that?
[01:11:08] <theos> connect the programmer?
[01:11:51] <aarobc> theos: har har
[01:11:57] <theos> :P
[01:12:27] <theos> loose wires?
[01:15:10] <aarobc> lol, the VM had taken control of it
[01:15:14] <aarobc> IT WOKRS!
[01:15:48] * aarobc dances
[01:15:57] <aarobc> it works it works it works!
[02:06:41] <aarobc> So, is there a library for working with USB on like the atmega8u2?
[02:06:49] * inflex waits for aarobc to run into a wall
[02:08:59] <Richard_Cavell> inflex: So you're on this channel too, huh?
[02:09:41] <aarobc> inflex: it must be possible, because they use it as the USB/serial device in the arduino uno
[02:15:56] <inflex> Richard_Cavell: no, you just think I am ;)
[02:16:38] <Richard_Cavell> Mate I wanna learn AVR
[02:16:39] <Richard_Cavell> 8-bit
[02:16:46] * inflex has been in here a very long time - but has gone quiet the last 6 months
[02:18:04] <Richard_Cavell> http://www.electro-tech-online.com/avr/130138-how-get-started-8-bit-avr.html
[02:52:09] <rue_bed> Richard_Cavell, do you have an avr?
[02:52:24] <Richard_Cavell> No. I want to start though
[04:54:55] <Richard_Cavell> Anyone here use the STK600? Do you recommend I buy it?
[05:23:10] <zump> how do i properly use a ring buffer? i want to continously acquire with an ADC, and store the samples in the buffer in the adc isr, when should i write the samples out?
[05:23:15] <mbertens> hi all, i'm new to AVR programming; i have a myAVR dev board with m640 mcu. i want to have a multiple tasks, i found YAVRTOS and compiled it with the example controlling on two ports LEDs. So far no problem. But when start using printf, the whole get unstable. To me it seems the problem lays in the va_arg() call, because it stops just before printing an argument
[05:23:48] <mbertens> can anyone help me with this; or is it an imposibility
[05:26:54] * Thetawaves_ having one hell of a time getting CRC numbers to match up
[06:09:58] <OndraSterver> woo atmega8 is here
[06:13:04] <MrTrick> Question; is it possible with an atTiny chip to hook up a timer (not the main system clock) to an external watch crystal, and have it continue to count while the chip goes to sleep? (and wake up on overflow)
[06:14:17] <atmega8> I think you need a driver for your crystal
[06:14:56] <MrTrick> hmm, okay? Can the chip's driver be used for that?
[06:15:41] <atmega8> the driver is made from some components (Transistor, Resistor, Cap ...)
[06:16:01] <atmega8> i search for you
[06:16:30] <MrTrick> That doesn't quite sound right... I'm more familiar with PIC chips, and the 12Fs can do this. .. but I'm trying to move away from PIC in general to AVRs
[06:17:25] <OndraSterver> actually
[06:17:31] <OndraSterver> some attinys can use watch crystal I think
[06:17:35] <OndraSterver> but I am not sure
[06:17:36] <OndraSterver> regular megas can
[06:17:59] <OndraSterver> (that is directly connected to the TOSC pins)
[06:18:24] <MrTrick> well, I'm basically after a chip that's available in a small package that can count real-time with very low power.
[06:18:57] <MrTrick> eg so it'll last for a year or two from a watch battery.
[06:19:37] <atmega8> http://homepage.internet.lu/animations/portland/electronic/crystal/crystal.htm
[06:20:05] <atmega8> bottom of the site Abb.14: Pierce Oszillator
[06:20:19] * MrTrick looks
[06:21:00] <MrTrick> Thanks atmega8, but that's not really ideal
[06:21:21] <atmega8> I think that the voltage swing is not enough on a regular I/O-Pin
[06:23:40] <OndraSterver> MrTrick, what about some atxmega32d4 or something? It has builtin RTC xtal
[06:23:47] <OndraSterver> and goes to 100nA in sleep
[06:23:50] <OndraSterver> few more nA for RTC
[06:24:19] <MrTrick> Aha - there's a field in the tinyAVR parameters table for it; 32.768khz RTC http://www.atmel.com/products/microcontrollers/avr/tinyAVR.aspx
[06:24:51] <MrTrick> attiny1634, attiny167, attiny87 apparently.
[06:24:58] <OndraSterver> yes, some have RTC as well
[06:24:59] <OndraSterver> forgot about that
[06:28:47] <zump> is it possible to use i2c in an ISR?
[06:28:50] <MrTrick> QTouch... anyone used it before?
[06:31:45] <OndraSterver> you can use anything in ISR
[06:32:08] <OndraSterver> read all the appnotes about qtouch, MrTrick
[06:32:55] <MrTrick> what, *ALL* of them? :-) Okay.
[06:32:56] <OndraSterver> board layout is not so easy for qtouch as for regular analog stuff :)
[06:33:00] <OndraSterver> ye
[06:33:01] <OndraSterver> all
[06:33:11] <OndraSterver> and somebody's notes or blog or whatever if there is one
[06:36:12] <xata> hello
[06:36:12] <nalT> hi xata
[06:36:42] <OndraSterver> eloooo
[06:53:02] <MrTrick> OndraSterver: Okay, I think I'll avoid QTouch for now. ^_^
[06:53:09] <OndraSterver> heh
[06:55:11] <xata> OndraSterver: MrTrick: guys, what that QTouch stof is for?
[06:55:28] <xata> Sounds more like something for QT (jn avr, lol)
[06:55:31] <xata> *on
[06:55:38] <OndraSterver> lol
[06:55:40] <MrTrick> xata: QTouch is a feature built into a bunch of AVRs to do capacitative buttons
[06:55:42] <OndraSterver> capacitive buttons
[06:55:49] <OndraSterver> uses internal ADC somehow
[06:56:09] <MrTrick> It's nifty, but I don't think it'd play nicely with an ultra-low-power design.
[06:56:38] <xata> nut why would one use that capacitive buttons?
[06:56:54] <xata> *but
[06:57:05] <xata> i mean - whay for?
[06:57:09] <xata> *what
[06:57:14] <xata> i am messy today
[06:57:15] <OndraSterver> they are right on the PCB
[06:58:21] <MrTrick> also, one can make things quite durable if there don't need to be any moving parts, or holes in the side of the case; waterproof is easy. :-)
[06:58:45] <xata> day after tomorrow will be my birthday and i do not want. So i got the needle
[06:59:59] <xata> MrTrick: it has a "pressure" metering?
[07:01:00] <OndraSterver> in theory yes
[07:05:10] <MrTrick> Is the AVR dragon the go-to standard programmer/debugger?
[07:05:27] * MrTrick wants as few pins as possible, and debug support is a bonus.
[07:06:17] <xata> MrTrick: use serial programmer?
[07:07:21] <MrTrick> well, debugWIRE sounds better.
[07:07:38] <OndraSterver> Dragon is cool stuff
[07:07:45] <OndraSterver> not that the chips first start in ISP mode
[07:07:50] <OndraSterver> and you have to switch them to dW
[07:08:01] <OndraSterver> and then switch them back to ISP - in dW they eat much more power
[07:08:13] <OndraSterver> aka it is not recommended to leave them in dW mode
[07:08:29] <atmega8> http://sensi.org/~svo/capsensor/index.en.html
[07:09:33] <MrTrick> oog, that's not so great. Is that 'much more power' for as long as power is applied, or just for the first few seconds/minutes?
[07:10:22] <OndraSterver> just switch it back to ISP mode
[07:11:38] <MrTrick> Yes but programming pads use up real estate. I was hoping to put it the chip in a zif socket once and switch it, then thereafter put it in the circuit and access it through dW mode
[07:20:31] <zump> i need to sample every 0.5 ms using an ISR but my i2c read takes 1ms. what to do o.O
[07:20:48] <megal0maniac> Use two :P
[07:21:35] <jadew> megal0maniac, hey
[07:21:42] <jadew> just to let you know, it didn't work for my pic
[07:22:08] <megal0maniac> jadew: Bummer. Which PIC are you using?
[07:22:24] <jadew> 18F14k50
[07:22:27] <megal0maniac> I've got two 16F676 but too lazy to try :/
[07:22:54] <jadew> gonna try to buy a pickit clone today, if that doesn't work, I'm gonna make my own burner from the specs
[07:23:45] <megal0maniac> Which one are you looking at getting?
[07:24:21] <jadew> http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/10/20/pickit2-clone-5v3-3v/
[07:24:38] <jadew> that one, some guy is selling them for about $20
[07:25:28] <jadew> I simply don't feel like building another set of tools atm, at least not for some uCs I won't use for very long, so it seems like a good deal
[07:25:46] <megal0maniac> dangerousprototypes is down for me... But I'd be surprised if it doesn't work. The pickit2 is pretty simple
[07:25:57] <jadew> we'll see if he can do it today tho, cuz it's sunday
[07:26:07] <jadew> I don't have the patience to wait till tomorrow tho
[07:26:24] <jadew> I meant if the transaction doesn't work ;)
[07:26:29] <jadew> being sunday and all
[07:26:32] <megal0maniac> Lucky. I have to wait 2 weeks minimum :P The 18f14k50 looks really cool
[07:26:59] <jadew> yeah, I'm just gonna use it to get working firmware for the mcp2200
[07:27:18] <jadew> which is flawed in some respects
[07:27:34] <jadew> anyway, have to go afk for now
[07:27:39] <jadew> see ya later
[07:30:03] <xata> i heard some at45 have dacs and can work up to 60mhz. is that true?
[07:30:06] <megal0maniac> Nice. Good luck with the pickit.
[07:31:00] <megal0maniac> xata: Not sure about that. Only real "hack" I've heard of his using PLL clock as system clock and running at 16.5mhz without crystal.
[07:33:50] <megal0maniac> Actually no. I'm pretty certain that the attiny45 doesn't have a dac
[07:34:43] <megal0maniac> maybe you're confusing it with something from the xmega series
[07:35:02] <megal0maniac> Many of them can clock up to 60mhz and have dacs
[07:35:26] <xata> megal0maniac: somethin from avr32 series. how they are named?
[07:36:23] <xata> i remember one several things - they were 32bit, 60mhz and had dacs
[07:52:22] <megal0maniac> So one of these: http://www.atmel.com/PFResults.aspx#(data:(area:'',category:'34864[33180]',mature:!f,pm:!((i:8238,v:!(0,18)),(i:8394,v:!(0,17)),(i:8362,v:!(16,28)),(i:8282,v:!(0,1,3,8)),(i:8286,v:!(1,3))),view:list),sc:1)
[07:54:31] <megal0maniac> Smallest chip that fits those parameters is AT32UC3B1512
[07:55:09] <megal0maniac> But in the 32bit range, 60mhz and dac is not uncommon
[07:56:11] <Richard_Cavell> Is the ATtiny4 the simplest AVR available?
[07:59:03] <megal0maniac> Looks like it.
[07:59:17] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell & xata: Atmel part finder is your friend
[07:59:27] <xata> megal0maniac: yeah. that's it. t.hanks
[08:03:08] <Richard_Cavell> Yes, thanks megal0maniac
[08:03:27] <Richard_Cavell> It's a bit beta-ey but it confirms that the ATtiny4 is the most primitive part they sell
[08:03:33] <Richard_Cavell> (I don't mean that as an insult)
[08:05:38] <megal0maniac> Nobody is going to be insulted by that :) Why do you want the simplest uC?
[08:05:51] <MrTrick> cheapest? :-D
[08:06:00] <megal0maniac> Not always
[08:06:46] <megal0maniac> Simplest chip could be a specialised product. They might make way more of a more complex chip, And therefore it's cheaper
[08:07:22] <Richard_Cavell> It's because I'm just starting and I don't want to hurt my brain any more than necessary
[08:07:59] <megal0maniac> Then you'll want an ATmega328P
[08:08:16] <megal0maniac> Or just an Arduino with an ISP programmer
[08:08:36] <megal0maniac> Are you new to programming as well or just microcontrollers?
[08:09:14] * megal0maniac is AFK
[08:09:27] <Richard_Cavell> I have been learning C for a couple of years and have heaps of assembly experience
[08:10:09] <Richard_Cavell> And are you being funny about the mega328P?
[08:10:41] <MrTrick> the atmega328 is what they use in the arduino.
[08:10:48] <MrTrick> So, you can start with an arduino board.
[08:11:15] <Richard_Cavell> oh, ok
[08:11:28] <Richard_Cavell> Well I'm thinking of buying a STK600 and it seems like that will program anything
[08:11:31] <MrTrick> (This doesn't mean you have to use all the arduino stuff, it can still be used like a plain AVR)
[08:12:29] <Richard_Cavell> Well I might buy some attiny4s and some 328ps
[08:13:51] <specing> just go with the 328
[08:14:15] <Richard_Cavell> My first programs will just be things like making the LEDs light up
[08:27:40] * megal0maniac is back
[08:28:37] <megal0maniac> Yes, serious about the 328. Loads of code examples as well. And if you get an arduino board, you don't need a programmer. It even comes with an LED.
[08:33:21] <megal0maniac> Actually, I might even suggest Teensy. Especially if you already know C and assembler. It caters for beginners (Arduino support) and experienced users as well, since you just throw .hex files at it. $16 is a steal, considering you won't need a programmer and it also has USB support
[08:33:23] <megal0maniac> http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/
[08:34:38] <megal0maniac> @Richard_Cavell
[08:40:11] <megal0maniac> A more complex chip isn't more difficult to program, it just has more capabilities. If you make an ATtiny4 blink a LED and an ATmega32u4 blink a LED, there is no difference. It just means there's room for growth, which you'll want if you can already program in C and Assembler. You won't be blinking LEDs for very long
[08:41:21] <MrTrick> hmm, seems the parameter table is a bit off... I couldn't figure out where in the attiny1634 specs it said how to do this async timer.
[08:41:40] <MrTrick> Looked at the 167/87 spec and found it straight away.
[08:46:55] <dekroning> hi
[08:47:57] <dekroning> I would like to start programming with different kinds of AVR processors, I've got a STK500 from *way* back, so it's rather old i guess for today's standards... what is a good programmer board which i'm able to program cpu's like 8051, ATmega's ?
[08:48:23] <megal0maniac> stk600?
[08:48:30] * megal0maniac shrugs
[08:49:15] <dekroning> megal0maniac: what do you use?
[08:49:59] <megal0maniac> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1300
[08:50:12] <megal0maniac> For atmega328, atmega1284 and attiny85
[08:51:05] <Erlkoenig> stk-500 is still widely used, i think
[08:51:17] <Erlkoenig> one just probably needs an USB->RS232 Adapter
[08:51:37] <megal0maniac> Erlkoenig: It is. The Pololu one I have just emulates the STK500 protocol
[08:52:03] <megal0maniac> With the convenience of USB, and some extra nice features
[08:52:17] <dekroning> megal0maniac: that Pololu seems like a nice and simple programmer
[08:52:19] <Erlkoenig> but why not use the board he already has ;)
[08:52:34] <Erlkoenig> it has LEDs and buttons and stuff which is nice to start with, doesnt it?
[08:52:57] <dekroning> Erlkoenig: I thought it was too old perhaps since it's been years ago since I last used it
[08:53:23] <megal0maniac> dekroning: It is, but you can still use your STK500 as Erlkoenig said. What do you want to program with it?
[08:53:28] <Erlkoenig> too old for what? if it still works, it should be good *g*
[08:53:56] <dekroning> megal0maniac: well, I probably need to buy some new MCU's like ATmega328, I would like to play around with 8051 mcu as well
[08:54:05] <Erlkoenig> you'll need an usb->rs232 adapter sooner or later, so it's not so bad to buy one now ;)
[08:54:23] <dekroning> Erlkoenig: true :-) I think i even have one still :-)
[08:54:38] <dekroning> do you guys use AVR Studio ?
[08:54:43] <Erlkoenig> yup
[08:54:54] <dekroning> crap, i'm on OSX
[08:54:54] <Erlkoenig> it seems the free "avra" assembler has a bug somewhere oO
[08:55:00] <megal0maniac> Don't know about the 8051, but it will support the ATmega328. If you're using atmel studio 6, then read this:http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J36/3.b.1
[08:55:03] <dekroning> was hoping I could go without IDE and use my trusty old VIM :)
[08:55:13] <Erlkoenig> you can
[08:55:24] <Erlkoenig> you just need a compiler and an assembler
[08:55:28] <Erlkoenig> does wine run on OS X?
[08:55:31] <megal0maniac> There's a nice toolchain for osx
[08:55:36] <megal0maniac> crosspack avr
[08:55:40] <Erlkoenig> you can run the avr assembler in wine without problems, at least on linux
[08:56:28] <megal0maniac> Crosspack is already in native osx binaries, and includes avrdude
[08:56:34] <Erlkoenig> oh good
[08:56:45] <dekroning> cool thanks
[08:56:50] <megal0maniac> dekroning: http://www.obdev.at/products/crosspack/index.html
[08:57:41] <dekroning> and gcc-avr is that still in use?
[08:58:06] <megal0maniac> It's included in crosspack
[08:58:08] <megal0maniac> But yes
[08:58:10] <Erlkoenig> yes it is ;)
[08:58:52] <megal0maniac> http://www.obdev.at/products/crosspack/download.html#releasenotes
[09:02:44] <megal0maniac> I still really like the Pololu one, as it is a programmer, but also works as a USB-serial converter (TTL 5V) and has a very simple scope (20khz sample rate, 7bit) Not a real oscilliscope, but has been really useful at times
[09:03:24] <megal0maniac> There's also this: https://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home
[09:03:45] <megal0maniac> Does HV*P as well, and JTAG
[09:03:57] <dekroning> megal0maniac: you also use the crosspack btw ?
[09:03:58] <dekroning> c
[09:04:55] <megal0maniac> Have a PC at home, but a mac at work with crosspack. It's good - just installs and works. Don't need xcode, and used TextWrangler to edit C source
[09:05:28] <megal0maniac> Or vi. Used both
[09:06:13] <Erlkoenig> he could also use his STK500 to program an atmega8 to build his own USBasp ;)
[09:06:33] <dekroning> megal0maniac: cool... btw I also just found something called "AVR Builder" in the App Store, it also includes avr-gcc, avr-libc and avrdude
[09:06:50] <Erlkoenig> store? hopefully it is free ;)
[09:07:14] <dekroning> yeah it's free :)
[09:07:28] <dekroning> but i've more often heard crosspack, so maybe it's better supported
[09:07:31] <megal0maniac> Never heard of it. But crosspack is sort of the standard.
[09:07:43] <dekroning> ok cool, i'll definilty go for that one indeed then
[09:07:44] <kobsu> dekroning: apple app store?
[09:07:47] <Erlkoenig> "app store"... it's called "Application" or "program"...
[09:07:53] <dekroning> kobsu: yes
[09:08:03] <kobsu> heh
[09:08:32] <megal0maniac> I'm just telling you what worked for me.
[09:08:43] <Erlkoenig> (afk)
[09:09:21] <dekroning> I was trying out PIC with MPLABX IDE as well on OSX, but the documentation and support is so crappy
[09:09:58] <dekroning> does Arduino also uses avr-gcc perhaps?
[09:10:31] <megal0maniac> I've only had bad experiences with Mac software originally written for Windows.
[09:10:40] <megal0maniac> And Arduino uses winavr
[09:11:44] * MrTrick wonders about Atmel's sample policies...
[09:11:47] <dekroning> what is winavr a compiler?
[09:12:31] <megal0maniac> It's a suite of programs, just like crosspack
[09:12:54] <dekroning> ah ok, but what does Arduino then use on OSX? presuming that winavr is only for windows
[09:13:33] <megal0maniac> Compilers and avrdude and then some. The stuff you need in order to get a program compiled and on your AVR just by typing "make"
[09:13:41] <megal0maniac> Probably crosspack as well, not sure
[09:14:14] <dekroning> megal0maniac: well thanks a lot for the info, I can do some home work now, and try to get my STK500 working :)
[09:14:33] <dekroning> ow btw also, is there like a simulator?
[09:14:41] <dekroning> or for all that stuff I should really use avrstudio ?
[09:16:32] <megal0maniac> crosspack comes with simulavr. So does winavr
[09:17:03] <megal0maniac> If you don't like it, then Atmel studio and that link from Pololu I sent you
[09:17:25] <dekroning> cool
[09:17:29] <dekroning> thanks again
[09:17:31] <dekroning> ciao
[09:17:36] <megal0maniac> Cheers
[09:32:37] <Richard_Cavell> megal0maniac: Sorry I was trying to sleep but couldn't
[09:32:41] <Richard_Cavell> Is the STK600 the best programmer?
[09:32:53] <Richard_Cavell> I'm not fussed about cost, I want the best tool for the job
[09:33:04] <Richard_Cavell> It's $200 but it's worth $200 to me to not have to fight an inferior programmer
[09:33:12] <Tom_itx> mine programs all 8 bit avr
[09:33:23] <Tom_itx> and it's not nearly as much as a stk600
[09:33:45] <Richard_Cavell> I don't care about cost. I want to program it, run the program, watch the LEDs blink
[09:33:51] <Tom_itx> it doesn't do hvpp though
[09:34:21] <Tom_itx> you don't need hvpp unless you fsck up really bad
[09:34:40] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[09:35:21] <megal0maniac> I've never used anything other than the Pololu one, so I can't really say. But the STK600 is really overpriced
[09:35:33] <Richard_Cavell> I don't care about price
[09:35:43] <Richard_Cavell> The difficult thing is getting input in and output out
[09:35:44] <Tom_itx> buy one of everything then
[09:36:02] <megal0maniac> And buy me one too :)
[09:36:08] <Tom_itx> then you can choose which one you like
[09:36:21] <Tom_itx> i can say mine works good
[09:36:22] * inflex has a couple of Tom_itx's programmers - they're fantastic
[09:36:56] * inflex used them for thousands of programming operations, debugging, and with the optional booster, recovering/HV-programming.
[09:37:04] <megal0maniac> Get Tom's
[09:37:20] <megal0maniac> He worked harder at making it than Atmel did :P
[09:37:34] <inflex> *lol*
[09:37:37] <megal0maniac> And it'll do exactly what you need
[09:37:52] <Tom_itx> i will say i only have 2 left until i make a new batch
[09:37:58] <Tom_itx> 2 of each that is
[09:38:04] <Tom_itx> regular and blue
[09:38:10] <inflex> I like that it has all 3 protocol headers on it.
[09:38:11] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Where do you plug in the AVR chip?
[09:38:30] <Tom_itx> it has an isp plug you plug into a target board
[09:38:40] <Tom_itx> i have a sticker you can plug into a breadboard if you need one
[09:38:53] <Tom_itx> i would toss one of those in if you tell me
[09:39:10] <Tom_itx> lemme find a pic of it
[09:39:26] <Richard_Cavell> I don't use breadboards
[09:39:29] <Richard_Cavell> I use a soldering iron
[09:39:39] <Tom_itx> then you need a 6pin isp plug
[09:39:57] <Tom_itx> no need to unplug your chip
[09:41:05] <Richard_Cavell> do you have a pic of that?
[09:41:14] <Tom_itx> of which?
[09:41:18] <Tom_itx> i probably do
[09:41:55] <Tom_itx> the 6pin pinout?
[09:42:03] <Tom_itx> it's on that page i linked i think
[09:42:19] <Tom_itx> standard atmel pinout
[09:42:36] <Richard_Cavell> No I mean the thingy to connect from that to the AVR
[09:42:50] <Tom_itx> i'm looking for the pic
[09:43:21] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/ACC1_desc.jpg
[09:43:25] <Tom_itx> upper right one
[09:43:35] <Tom_itx> is for the breadboard
[09:43:43] <Tom_itx> then you connect your wires where you need them
[09:44:17] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/breadboard_basic_side.jpg
[09:44:22] <Tom_itx> somewhat like that
[09:44:24] <Richard_Cavell> So do you take those pins and sort of shove it into the breadboard?
[09:44:34] <Tom_itx> ^^
[09:44:36] <Tom_itx> yes
[09:45:00] <Tom_itx> on separate paths then run your wires to the proper avr pins
[09:45:10] <Richard_Cavell> ok
[09:45:23] <Richard_Cavell> do the relevant pins change from one avr model to the next?
[09:45:28] <Tom_itx> most just have isp headers on their boards
[09:45:35] <Tom_itx> somewhat yes
[09:45:56] <Richard_Cavell> Well I'm working entirely with my own stuff, I'm not using an Arduino
[09:46:06] <Tom_itx> me either
[09:46:07] <megal0maniac> +1 for AVRISP protocol instead of STK500 and +1 for powering the target
[09:46:20] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega128_exp_1.jpg
[09:46:27] <Tom_itx> lower left is the isp plug on that one
[09:47:28] <megal0maniac> http://www.electronics123.net/amazon/pictures/10311-01b.png
[09:47:32] <megal0maniac> Next to the slider
[09:47:39] <Tom_itx> the issue you have which you would have on any programmer is to be careful using the isp pins for something else
[09:47:57] <Tom_itx> if you need them you can program from a breadboard
[09:49:08] <Richard_Cavell> Would I be right in thinking that the ISP pins are also used for other things when the AVR is running?
[09:49:18] <Richard_Cavell> I mean, the ATtiny4 only has 6 pins so there aren't that many to go round
[09:49:20] <Tom_itx> not normally
[09:49:31] <Tom_itx> thiny 4 uses TPI
[09:49:36] <Tom_itx> a 2 wire interface
[09:49:49] <Richard_Cavell> Can your thing program that?
[09:49:56] <Tom_itx> however if you need to use all the pins i have a reset recovery board just for those 4 chips
[09:50:01] <Tom_itx> yes
[09:50:09] <Tom_itx> it does ISP, PDI and TPI
[09:50:19] <Tom_itx> covering all the 8bit avrs i believe
[09:50:50] <Tom_itx> there may be one obscure chip it might not program but i haven't found it yet
[09:52:26] <Richard_Cavell> I want to be able to design my own circuits
[09:52:56] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: I still recommend you get something like the tiny45 or 85 or 2313 instead of the 4.
[09:53:22] <megal0maniac> Or just the 328, as speccing said
[09:53:29] <megal0maniac> *specing
[09:53:40] <Richard_Cavell> Why the tiny45?
[09:53:45] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI1.jpg
[09:53:54] <Tom_itx> there's a tiny10 with it's program header
[09:54:01] <Richard_Cavell> The way I tend to build circuits is I solder things and then throw them away, so I'll probably program and use several tiny4s
[09:54:04] <Tom_itx> same series as the t4
[09:54:29] <Tom_itx> that seems rather wasteful
[09:54:36] <Richard_Cavell> I know but I learn more that way
[09:54:47] <megal0maniac> IC sockets?
[09:54:47] <Richard_Cavell> People on ##electronics tell me to get a breadboard but I don't think it's the same
[09:54:59] <Richard_Cavell> I solder everything on Veroboard
[09:55:04] <Tom_itx> ppl on ##electronics are nuts to begin with
[09:55:11] <Tom_itx> i left there ages ago
[09:55:18] <megal0maniac> Nothing wrong with breadboard :/
[09:55:55] <Richard_Cavell> Maybe I'll solder in IC sockets and then save the ICs for reuse
[09:56:05] <Tom_itx> soldering is your best bet but if you want to test something breadboards will work. just being aware of their inherent problems
[09:56:51] <Richard_Cavell> which are?
[09:57:50] <Tom_itx> loose connections if the breadboard is old
[09:58:03] <Tom_itx> they spring apart and may cause problems
[09:58:13] <Tom_itx> i still use them though
[09:58:41] <Richard_Cavell> I understand
[09:58:59] <Richard_Cavell> Do I have to buy the sockets from the same place I buy the AVR ICs, or are they pretty widely available?
[09:59:07] <Richard_Cavell> I want to use the ones with 6/8 pins in a DIP package
[09:59:58] <Tom_itx> depends
[10:00:16] <Tom_itx> t4 5 9 and 10 are sot only
[10:00:43] <inflex> T13, 25/45/85 are your 8pin ones
[10:00:48] <megal0maniac> Richard_Cavell: One of the reasons for recommending the chips I did
[10:01:33] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Oh I want a DIP, one that I can solder by hand
[10:01:42] <Richard_Cavell> Where the pins are 1 tenth of an inch apart
[10:01:57] <megal0maniac> DIP
[10:02:02] <Tom_itx> i soldered those by hand
[10:02:10] <Richard_Cavell> Let's assume that I suck at soldering
[10:02:14] <inflex> heh
[10:02:18] <inflex> g'night all.
[10:02:19] <Tom_itx> these: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI1.jpg
[10:02:24] <megal0maniac> Then DIP :)
[10:02:24] <Tom_itx> gnite inflex
[10:02:27] <Richard_Cavell> In fact, more to the point, I want to use Veroboard where the holes are .254 mm apart
[10:02:38] <Tom_itx> you don't want t4 then
[10:02:54] <Tom_itx> you could drop it between the pins on the isp
[10:03:05] * megal0maniac is AFK
[10:03:37] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Okay well the DIP ones are the sort that will fit into Veroboard, right?
[10:04:07] <Tom_itx> they should yes
[10:04:14] <Tom_itx> most are .1" spacing
[10:04:22] <Richard_Cavell> well that's what my boards are
[10:04:27] <Tom_itx> i'd start with a mega328 honestly
[10:04:32] <Richard_Cavell> You might ridicule me for soldering everything but 5 years ago I was really bad at soldering
[10:04:39] <Richard_Cavell> And now I'm pretty good
[10:04:40] <Tom_itx> it's got a good variety of features and plenty of memory to expand
[10:05:05] <Tom_itx> the first 200 programmers i had i hand soldered
[10:05:31] <Tom_itx> then i decided it was time to make a toaster oven
[10:05:54] <Richard_Cavell> Okay well thanks for that, I would have bought the tiny4 and not been able to solder it into my board
[10:06:11] <Tom_itx> you could etch a small board like i did to test them
[10:06:22] <Tom_itx> or have one made up
[10:06:48] <Tom_itx> but it's not all that practical
[10:06:57] <Tom_itx> you still only get 4 useable io
[10:07:06] <Tom_itx> at best
[10:08:38] <Richard_Cavell> I looked up the tiny13 and it has a DIP version
[10:10:38] <Tom_itx> i've often seen people start out thinking they need all the fancy tools, programmers, debuggers etc and they really don't know what they need
[10:11:33] <Tom_itx> a simple programmer and test platform will go a long ways
[10:11:48] <Tom_itx> whether it's a breadboard or veroboard
[10:12:27] <Tom_itx> now there's only 1 left :(
[10:12:46] <Tom_itx> just checked my email
[10:13:07] <Microboter> I have all the fancy tools, and i will still build up trial stuff on a breadboard, Tom speaks the truth :)
[10:13:22] <Richard_Cavell> I don't doubt you
[10:13:28] <Microboter> morning tom
[10:13:33] <Tom_itx> hi
[10:13:33] <Richard_Cavell> But I do want to be able to send info in and out of the device
[10:13:56] <Tom_itx> looks like i gotta get busy now
[10:14:39] <Tom_itx> one to utah and one to norway
[10:15:13] <Tom_itx> i even bet there's a few floating around atmel in norway
[10:15:29] <Tom_itx> i know one is
[11:15:05] <tosmo> is there anything wrong about using PWM + lowpassfilter to provide an adjustable AREF for the ADC?
[11:15:16] <tosmo> would it be too unstable oder sth else?
[11:16:36] <Erlkoenig> if you can verify with your oscilloscope that the voltage has a constant level...
[11:17:06] <Erlkoenig> why do you need an adjustable reference voltage? you could as well adjust the measured values in software?
[11:18:28] <tosmo> to increase resolution. if i know in advance that the singals will not be bigger than say 0.5V, resolution would be 10 times worse
[11:18:46] <tosmo> (from the possible integer value 0..1023 only 0..100 would be used)
[11:20:31] <tosmo> i was just wondering why this doesn't seem to be very common despite it's simplicity
[11:20:50] <tosmo> (so there must be some caveat ;) )
[11:22:15] <Tom_itx> so what would you do about frequency drift?
[11:24:33] <tosmo> wouldn't matter, because only the duty-cycle has to be constant. (and it won't be so big that the low pass filter wouldn't fit anymore)
[11:28:48] <Microboter> could also use something like a quad bilateral switch to swap in diff resister values for a bias
[11:35:06] <Microboter> one chip would get you 16 levels of sensitivity adjustment
[11:54:00] <RikusW> rue_house: are you trying to improve the channel stats ? :-P
[12:06:16] <rue_house> RikusW, how would I do that
[12:06:32] <RikusW> 5 logins ....
[12:07:02] <rue_house> no thats a solution for omniprescence
[12:07:13] <RikusW> ah :-P
[12:07:49] <RikusW> how should we know which one to talk to ?
[12:07:57] <rue_house> you dont have to
[12:08:04] <rue_house> I'm context aware
[12:08:09] <rue_house> or just gone
[12:08:35] <rue_house> even when I'm here sometimes, I'm not here
[12:08:48] <RikusW> meaning ?
[12:08:51] <RikusW> asleep ?
[12:09:00] <rue_house> or chasing butterfly
[12:09:28] <RikusW> the avr butterfly ;) ?
[12:10:01] <rue_house> no I'm a raw avr chap
[12:10:38] <rue_house> the kind that makes his own libraries and calles his board an armadillo
[12:11:01] <rue_house> hmm that would be a good name for an arm based board
[12:11:12] <rue_house> how about the avrcado
[12:11:13] <RikusW> and codes in asm too ?
[12:11:33] <rue_house> only if I have to, and ususally via adjusted asm from the C compiler
[12:11:46] <rue_house> I'v been known to tweek the C code till the asm comes out right
[12:12:23] <rue_house> youve been here a while, what you working on
[12:12:27] <RikusW> getting a new avr-gcc might break that...
[12:13:17] <RikusW> at the moment nothing specific, apart from chasing cattle and helping to put out a wildfire yesterday in 60km/h winds....
[12:13:23] <rue_house> I have an hour before aliens come to take me away, I need to eat breakfast, biab
[12:15:13] <RikusW> (seems Soweto owes Eskom (sole electricity supplier) R3x10^9 ~~ $375m)
[12:16:24] <rue_livingrm> your units are not sufficient for me to work out context of what your talking about
[12:16:48] <RikusW> I've put in an approximate USD price
[12:17:37] <RikusW> that is city councils not paying for electricity here, it runs into the millions by now.....
[12:18:25] <RikusW> R3x10^9 = R3 000 000 000
[12:18:37] <RikusW> that is ZAR, South African Rands
[12:19:43] <RikusW> About as much just went missing, it was meant to repair the roads which is in a terrible condition, a lot of potholes...
[12:23:38] <specing> Hehe, I like your "missing"
[12:26:10] <RikusW> SA gov is very corrupt...
[12:26:17] <tlvb> Moneycules are strung together with quite instable bonds, so they disintegrate easily.
[12:26:45] <specing> RikusW: s/SA //
[12:27:58] <RikusW> lol tlvb
[12:28:13] <RikusW> specing: some govs are worse...
[12:35:05] <rue_house> little more than half an hour left
[12:36:03] <Tom_itx> rue_house what did the kids do yesterday?
[12:36:55] <specing> < rue_house> I have an hour before aliens come to take me away, I need to eat breakfast, biab
[12:37:05] <specing> OMG ALIENS ARE COMING!
[12:38:25] <Erlkoenig> get the torches and pitchforks!
[12:39:12] <tlvb> and helicopters with running lights
[12:39:50] <specing> rue_house: who are these aliens? :O
[12:40:05] <RikusW> the asgard :-P
[12:40:16] <rue_house> Tom_itx, more work on the rubix cube solver robot
[12:40:33] <specing> rue_house: asgard?
[12:40:34] <rue_house> specing, just a group that dosn't come around often
[12:40:42] <rue_house> nobody special
[12:41:02] <rue_house> hmm half an hour, well, most of the laundry is done
[12:41:16] <rue_house> sppose I should get dressed and get my things togethor
[12:41:18] <Erlkoenig> would you do my laundry too?
[12:41:22] <rue_house> no
[12:51:29] <rue_house> I ca ask the aliens, sometimes they get borred and just want something to do. I cant garuntee they will do a good job or that the laundry will even survive, but I can be sure they would find a way to have fun.
[12:54:25] <Erlkoenig> maybe they incorporate some cool alien tech into the clothes, so i can fly or teleport or something when wearing them... sounds like we might try it
[12:58:05] <rue_house> na, that would take work
[12:58:56] <rue_house> I'm going on the scrounge with them, gonna look for some materials
[12:59:59] <rue_house> dont ever tell aliens its ok to crash at your house, they tend to take its meaning wrong.
[13:01:01] <rue_house> hmm wonder if their gonna be early or late...
[13:03:24] * rue_house shaves
[13:35:51] <dekroning> hello
[13:39:05] <dekroning> I would like to play with the "ATmega128RFA1" however, I was wondering when not using AVRStudio if this was at all possible?
[13:39:52] <Essobi> Anything given enough thrust, can be a rocket.
[13:43:24] <dekroning> Essobi: I'm too new to the whole environment, but I know that sometimes it's need to load perhaps AVRStudio specific libraries ?
[13:43:57] <Essobi> Oh... yea, IDK.. I dont' use their environment.
[13:45:29] <kobsu> why not use sublime text 2 with shortcut keys to compile/upload and sublimeclang plugin for autocomplite?
[13:47:09] <dekroning> kobsu: that for me ? :)
[13:47:20] <kobsu> yep :)
[13:48:12] <dekroning> ah I forgot to mention, i'm on OSX :)
[13:48:16] <kobsu> dekroning: take a look at this http://aery32.readthedocs.org/en/latest/use_with_st2.html
[13:48:22] <kobsu> dekroning: it works on osx
[13:48:56] <dekroning> kobsu: because for zigbee, I persume there are Atmel specific libraries for this right?
[13:49:16] <kobsu> dekroning: zigbee libs comes only with avrstudio?
[13:49:31] <dekroning> kobsu: actually i'm just guessing :)
[13:50:02] <kobsu> dekroning: it shouldn't matter what editor you are using
[13:50:50] <dekroning> kobsu: you right, i should have said if it's a problem to be on OSX for those reasons :)
[13:51:43] <Amadiro> dekroning, what do you want to use instead?
[13:52:02] <dekroning> Amadiro: I just want to use my MacBook (OSX) with vi
[13:52:05] <kobsu> yeah i haven't tested with OSX but what I have heard things work on that too
[13:52:11] <Amadiro> dekroning, and GCC, I assume
[13:52:16] <dekroning> Amadiro: yeah indeed
[13:52:30] <kobsu> dekroning: now it's vi instead of avrstudio ;)
[13:52:33] <Amadiro> dekroning, well, that works fine, avr-gcc is an officially supported, well-working port.
[13:52:43] <Amadiro> dekroning, so just get avr-gcc, write a makefile, and off you go
[13:53:28] <dekroning> Amadiro: great... but I was wondering, does Atmel provide libraries for TCP/IP networking, Zigbee etc... sorry for the perhaps stupid questions :)
[13:53:59] <Amadiro> dekroning, none of the AVR chips have networking (I think? maybe some of the AVR32s?), and zigbee is not an atmel product
[13:54:10] <Amadiro> so you'll presumably have to use the libraries that zigbee gives you
[13:54:21] <Amadiro> and/or whatever company produces your ethernet chip
[13:54:35] <dekroning> Amadiro: ATmega128RFA1 uses zigbee protocol, I thought Atmel perhaps gave you some lib's to use the zigbee protocol
[13:54:39] <kobsu> there's bitcloud iirc, but it never worked for me
[13:55:04] <Amadiro> dekroning, what do you mean, "uses zigbee protocol"
[13:55:15] <kobsu> dekroning: http://www.atmel.com/tools/BITCLOUD-ZIGBEEPRO.aspx
[13:56:01] <kobsu> "Atmel BitCloud is a full-featured ZigBee PRO stack supporting reliable, scalable, secure wireless applications running on Atmel wireless platforms."
[13:56:14] <dekroning> kobsu: intrestting :-) indeed so more or less my question was/is does BITCLOUD work on OSX without using avrstudio
[13:56:24] <kobsu> :D
[13:57:20] <Amadiro> dekroning, I haven't used it (or even heard about it), but it probably doesn't matter what OS you're on -- only (maybe) which compiler you use...
[13:57:25] <kobsu> iirc it's a bundle of makefiles and c source files, so it does... but it might be tedious to understand how
[13:58:11] <dekroning> i'm new to all this embedded stuff, so it's a bit hard for me to grasp what's possible and how
[13:58:58] <kobsu> maybe you should start from something easier than zigbee?
[14:01:29] <dekroning> kobsu: haha yeah you are actually right ;-)
[14:01:51] <dekroning> kobsu: actually i'm intrestted in networked MCU's
[14:02:29] <dekroning> so I was checking out those PIC18F's chips, but I couldn't get around with their toolchain :)
[14:03:51] <Essobi> what kind of asshole makes a tiny embedded linux box, and disabled the RS-232 and the ethernet?
[14:04:18] <Essobi> There's got to be a ttl serial or some voodoo incantation... Hmm.
[14:04:27] <kobsu> dekroning: what network you were looking from pic18f?
[14:06:46] <dekroning> kobsu: i'm looking into making networked remote controller device. I've written some iphone remote software, and I would like to create some simple device that would use optocouplers or relays to turn stuff on/off :)
[14:07:03] <dekroning> kobsu: so something like a ENC28J60
[14:07:18] <dekroning> would be i guess performent enough
[14:08:07] <Amadiro> dekroning, if you have trouble getting started/getting the toolchain to work, you could have a go at the arduino prototype board. It's very beginner-friendly and works on OSX.
[14:08:29] <Amadiro> You can then switch to bare-bone code/making your own PCBs later for more professional stuff/stuff with particular requirements
[14:09:13] <dekroning> Amadiro: i'm actually at that next step, i've used Arduino's for quite some time. However now I would really like to make some bareminimum pcb's, only required
[14:10:14] <Amadiro> dekroning, if you already have an arduino, why not try to program it without the IDE?
[14:10:32] <Amadiro> set up avr-gcc and a makefile invoking avrdude, and get used to pushing and pulling registers manuallz
[14:10:40] <dekroning> Amadiro: that's a good one indeed! :)
[14:10:51] <dekroning> awesome, why didn't I think of that :-)
[14:10:55] <Amadiro> Then pretty much everything will port over directly to arbitrary other AVR chips
[14:11:10] <Amadiro> well, how you program them might change, for instance, but other than that
[14:11:19] <Amadiro> (by "program" I mean how you flash the program onto them)
[14:12:10] <Amadiro> the arduino also has I²C, SPI and such (if I'm not mistaken), so if you have two (or some other device, like an SD card) you can make them talk.
[14:12:31] <Amadiro> Write your own little SPI stack, or perhaps SD card reader library
[14:12:56] <dekroning> so stuff like SPI stack, this isn't provided by Atmel?
[14:13:28] <Essobi> It's all just bitbanging. *shrug*
[14:13:35] <Amadiro> dekroning, I don't think so, writing an SPI library should be less than 50 lines or so
[14:13:56] <Essobi> Umm.. what's that one that's free and baremetal?
[14:14:03] <Essobi> Umm.. peter something?
[14:14:15] <dekroning> are there opensource or perhaps commercial stack's which can be used on those AVR mcu's ?
[14:14:16] <Amadiro> Essobi, bitbanging? the 32u4/atmega328p have SPI devices onboard, so you just get interrupts and registers
[14:14:18] <Tom_itx> fleury
[14:14:23] <Essobi> I based one of the 1-wires I'm using of an early version of one of his, iirc.
[14:14:30] <Essobi> Amadiro: oh right..
[14:14:39] <Amadiro> You only need to bitbang the slave-select lines
[14:14:56] <Essobi> Tom_itx: that's the guy... peter fleury. lookup his libraries.
[14:15:46] <Amadiro> although writing your own bitbanging SPI library might also be worth the experience
[14:16:04] <dekroning> Amadiro: yeah absolutely indeed :)
[14:17:11] <dekroning> so also LCD stacks etc most of the people using AVR's write them their selfs?
[14:17:53] <Blecha> So i'm going to be making my first etched board soon. I know its unlabeled so you can't tell me much but what do you guys think? https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G3wwtaOTJ3Y/UDpyxPAIAvI/AAAAAAAAAD8/3P93PtAVaFg/w497-h373/2012-08-26
[14:18:21] <Blecha> Its for a mega168, 14pin shift register, 6 pin keypad, and a KS0108 based GLCD
[14:24:40] <Tom_itx> all i get is a black screen
[14:24:57] <dekroning> Amadiro: you recommend any books starting avr with gcc ?
[14:25:09] <Essobi> Oooh.. *idea* Thanks Blecha :D
[14:25:58] <Blecha> Essobi?
[14:26:18] <Blecha> Tom_itx the background is alpha, try looking in a different photo viewer
[14:26:25] <Essobi> I've been pontificating ideas... reading that just gave me one.
[14:26:50] <Amadiro> dekroning, no, sorry.
[14:27:28] <dekroning> Amadiro: just reading the datasheets and perhaps avr-libc ?
[14:27:46] <Amadiro> dekroning, you'll probably find that writing "stacks" for most things is really easy, because most other components just talk very simple protocols that you can either use through a UART, SPI, I²C and such, or bitbang them.
[14:27:56] <Amadiro> dekroning, USB is kinda complicated, but that's why there's LUFA
[14:28:01] <Amadiro> and V-USB for bitbanging it
[14:30:50] <Thetawaves> i'm having trouble with self programming, has anybody awake gotten that to work? https://github.com/wdreeveii/avr9p/blob/master/9p_pgm.c It makes it past the checksum test, but the data just won't show up in flash, as if that function call is a nop
[14:30:59] <dekroning> Amadiro: sounds really cool, when i'm able todo that stuff :-) but how do you get the basics, I mean you must have a really good understanding of SPI, I2C, etc in order to write stacks for them
[14:32:50] <Thetawaves> the .boot section is at 0xF000 with bootsz1,bootsz0 set to 0
[14:33:07] <Amadiro> dekroning, you don't really need a low-level understanding of the wire protocol if your chip has built-in support for it, for instance if your chip has a USB device, you just get a few registers that you push data into, and then you get interrupts that get triggered if new data for you has arrived from the USB bus, so that you can read it
[14:33:23] <Amadiro> dekroning, you don't need to know the low-level stuff like voltages, impendances, JK encoding, bitstuffing et cetera
[14:33:40] <Amadiro> dekroning, but you'll still need to know the "high-level protocol", e.g. what the USB host will want to know from you and how to answer
[14:33:49] <dekroning> Amadiro: ah cool, I was afraid that I would need to know that low-level stuff :)
[14:33:59] <Amadiro> dekroning, for SPI, there is no "high-level protocol", so you can just invent your own or you have to implement whatever the device you want to talk to speaks
[14:34:32] <Thetawaves> my chip is atmega1284p
[14:34:39] <Amadiro> dekroning, if you're building your own board, you need to know about things such as which resistors and capacitors to use for the USB bus and such
[14:34:54] <Amadiro> dekroning, if you're writing a soft stack that bitbangs a protocol, you'll need to know all the details
[14:35:39] <dekroning> Amadiro: soft stack, meaning no hardware support at all? just gpio's ?
[14:35:59] <dekroning> or perhaps even analog ports
[14:36:08] <Amadiro> dekroning, yes. For instance for AVR chips running at 12MHz or faster, you can implement USB low-speed by just bitbanging pins.
[14:36:30] <Amadiro> But it's quite complicated, because you'll have to do all the decoding yourself, register interrupt handlers to answer with NAKs, and so on
[14:36:49] <Amadiro> So you really don't have much room for doing other things
[14:37:27] <dekroning> Amadiro: so when a chip supports something like SPI, the datasheet will provide enough information to use it? There isn't a library for you to link against during compilation?
[14:37:51] <Amadiro> dekroning, yes, the datasheet is most likely all you'll need
[14:38:32] <dekroning> Amadiro: toobad Atmel doesn't provide anykind of tcp/ip networked chip support. Perhaps any reason for this?
[14:38:44] <Amadiro> dekroning, speaking in general (whether it's a floating point unit, MMU, UART or other types of special hardware), when programming the chip directly, you'll get something like special registers, special instructions or special interrupts (or any combination thereof) to handle it
[14:39:07] <Amadiro> dekroning, I don't know, the AVR32s might have that, lemme check
[14:39:37] <dekroning> Amadiro: so for example on AVR32s aren't there special libraries to use?
[14:40:05] <dekroning> because I can imagine things can get so complicated on this chpis :)
[14:40:46] <Amadiro> dekroning, I don't know, I was just guessing -- I don't know whether any AVR32s have ethernet
[14:40:54] <Tom_itx> avr32 is another beast all it's own
[14:41:01] <Tom_itx> we do avr 8 here
[14:41:16] <Tom_itx> not sure any avr's do ethernet
[14:43:08] <Blecha> Tom_itx did you ever get that png opened? Its transparent background with black traces
[14:43:13] <dekroning> avr32 uses the same toolchain as the atmega's?
[14:43:55] <Amadiro> dekroning, looks like some of the ARM-based atmel chips have support for things like wireless and such, and I assume atmel then also provides libraries for it. They also provide libraries for USB, but most people prefer LUFA.
[14:43:57] <dekroning> Amadiro: have you ever used ethernet on a project which included avr as main mcu? what kind of chip did you use for the ethernet part?
[14:44:29] <Amadiro> dekroning, I have not. But I know there is an arduino ethernet shield available, so you could look at that.
[14:44:31] <dekroning> Amadiro: so when the do use libraries, how does Atmel provide them?
[14:44:46] <Tom_itx> Blecha, nope i gave up
[14:44:50] <Amadiro> dekroning, you can download them from atmel.com
[14:44:51] <Blecha> :(
[14:45:03] <Blecha> I'll just have to test it, im printing it on regular paper tonight
[14:45:17] <Blecha> and Im going to lay down all the parts to see how it fits.
[14:45:26] <Tom_itx> make sure all the GND and VCC are connected
[14:45:30] <Blecha> I'm already worried about pad size though as my smallest drill bit is 1/32"
[14:45:38] <Tom_itx> add .1uf caps to the supply near the chip
[14:45:43] <Blecha> Tom_itx there are jumpers for them.
[14:45:45] <Tom_itx> stuff like that
[14:45:56] <Tom_itx> make sure you left room for the plugs etc
[14:46:08] <Blecha> Ive got caps on my supply voltage, pulldowns on all inputs, and all headers are placed
[14:46:20] <specing> Why are there no ethernet AVRs :(
[14:46:29] <Blecha> I used 2 x whatever pin headers for most things.
[14:46:30] <specing> an ethernet Xmega would pwn :)
[14:47:06] <dekroning> thanks Amadiro for your information
[14:47:09] <Blecha> keypad is 2x3, lcd 2x20, shift register has a 5 pin header for VCC and 4 spare outputs to play with later.
[14:47:10] <Amadiro> dekroning, check out http://www.atmel.com/devices/ATMEGA32U4.aspx?tab=tools for instance (it has "AVR USB Series" link)
[14:48:20] <dekroning> Amadiro: ah like http://www.atmel.com/tools/QTOUCHLIBRARY.aspx
[14:48:34] <Amadiro> dekroning, yep
[14:48:45] <Amadiro> dekroning, the qtouch thing is a new thing they have acquired lately
[14:49:00] <specing> Blecha: Can you use a website other than that of evil google to host your stuff?
[14:49:03] <Amadiro> dekroning, but for USB, most people either just use it manually for simple things, or use LUFA for more complicated things
[14:49:04] <dekroning> Amadiro: ah ok
[14:49:11] <Amadiro> dekroning, for newer chips, no libraries might be available at all
[14:49:22] <specing> Blecha: You could use clip2net (ondra uses that) for images
[14:49:47] <Blecha> yeah I can hang on
[14:50:38] <dekroning> Amadiro: ah ... this is what I actually meant with the libraries... I just downloaded this Qtouch library, but it comes as a .exe file
[14:50:57] <Amadiro> dekroning, I don't know how it works, but the actual library is probably just a bunch of .c and .o files
[14:50:59] <specing> Blecha: you could open an account on github or gitorious to host your code and other stuff
[14:51:16] <Tom_itx> why pulldowns on all inputs?
[14:51:22] <Tom_itx> just set them as output
[14:51:51] <dekroning> Amadiro: why would it be packaged in .exe though? So probably just extract the .exec and get the .c .h and .o files /
[14:52:01] <Tom_itx> pullup on reset?
[14:52:05] <Tom_itx> with a button to gnd?
[14:52:22] <Blecha> specing im at work, i have a github account but im trying to not sign in to stuff
[14:52:24] <Thetawaves> specing, i'm making good progress re our conversation a while ago, now if only i could get the damn programs into flash!
[14:52:50] * Tom_itx notify's Blecha's boss
[14:53:29] <Amadiro> dekroning, possibly. Looks like the arduino ethernet shield uses a WIZNet iEthernet W5100 chip, which handles almost everything for you automatically (TCP, UDP, IP parsing et cetera) and then it looks like you talk to it using RS232
[14:53:41] <Tom_itx> ok i gotta get this batch placed so i can put em in the oven
[14:53:48] <Blecha> Tom_itx http://i45.tinypic.com/25qr6vm.png
[14:53:53] <Blecha> specing ^
[14:54:07] <dekroning> Amadiro: cool, well thanks for the info. My battery is dying so talk to you later
[14:54:10] <Tom_itx> same thing
[14:54:11] <Tom_itx> black
[14:54:16] <Amadiro> Tom_itx, great, when will I get mine? :P
[14:54:21] <Amadiro> dekroning, laters.
[14:54:26] <Tom_itx> did you get an email?
[14:54:29] <Tom_itx> Amadiro?
[14:54:32] <Amadiro> Tom_itx, yep
[14:54:36] <Tom_itx> you in norway?
[14:54:37] <Blecha> http://tinypic.com/r/25qr6vm/6
[14:54:39] <Amadiro> Tom_itx, yep
[14:54:41] <Tom_itx> ok
[14:54:46] <Blecha> There that has to have a background Tom_itx
[14:55:20] <Amadiro> Tom_itx, ordered through my universities hackerspace, we only have a really shitty programmer from sparkfun right now.
[14:55:44] <Tom_itx> you can't track that number btw
[14:55:53] <Tom_itx> it's just a customs number
[14:56:14] <Amadiro> Cool -- no hurry, though, I expect USPS to at least take like two weeks or so
[14:56:50] <Tom_itx> the only one that replied to me took 11 days
[14:56:54] <Tom_itx> from norway
[14:57:15] <Tom_itx> this is why i request replies
[14:57:23] <Amadiro> Ah. I think on my last order from the US through USPS it took 12 or 13 days, 3 days in custom clearance, I think
[14:58:45] <Amadiro> Our custom clearance system is a bit ridiculous, they sift through everything
[14:59:04] <Tom_itx> not as bad as some places
[14:59:21] <Blecha> Ok dudes
[14:59:30] <Blecha> Its time to go, im off in like 10-20 min
[15:00:08] <kobsu> Amadiro: what did you mean by no libs for newer chips?
[15:00:19] <Amadiro> kobsu, AFAIK there are no usb libs for the xmegas yet
[15:00:31] <kobsu> Amadiro: LUDA does not work with xmegas?
[15:00:34] <kobsu> lufa
[15:00:37] <Amadiro> nope
[15:00:46] <kobsu> ok, however it works with uc3
[15:01:10] <Amadiro> They have some examples for xmegas, and they're flagged as "experimental", but somebody recently told me they don't work
[15:01:25] <kobsu> Amadiro: here https://github.com/kblomqvist/aery32-plus-lufa
[15:02:05] <Amadiro> kobsu, what is that, exactly?
[15:02:15] <kobsu> Amadiro: LUFA working with uc3a1
[15:02:34] <Amadiro> looks like it's for AVR32 only?
[15:02:42] <kobsu> Amadiro: as i said :)
[15:06:23] <jadew> is the microchip site screwed up?
[15:06:49] <Amadiro> kobsu, ok. I did not know the uc3 series
[15:07:10] <kobsu> ok
[15:09:11] <kobsu> but yes uc3 is 32-bit avr
[15:16:49] <specing> Blecha_: why so many wires to the LCD?
[15:17:01] <specing> the LCD can do 4bit mode just fine
[15:17:14] <specing> would make your board smaller
[15:19:30] <specing> ugh mouser changed its eu site to deutsch
[15:22:13] <megal0maniac> specing: Is there any real advantage to using 8 wires instead?
[15:22:45] <specing> yes, update speed
[15:23:10] <specing> But since we puny humans can't see more than 30frames/s, it doesen't matter
[15:23:32] <specing> Oh you mean if there is any advantage for using 4 bit?
[15:23:45] <specing> you have less wires to route :D
[15:24:35] <specing> Blecha_: you shouldn't leave Vo unconnected
[15:24:45] <Amadiro> specing, some parts of my eye can see up to 80Hz flickering
[15:24:52] <Amadiro> I've tested it before
[15:25:15] <megal0maniac> No, I did mean 2bit :) I use "nibble mode" on both my LCDs and couldn't see a difference when I put them in 2bit mode
[15:25:46] <megal0maniac> So was just curious
[15:27:04] <OndraSterver> people can see waaay above 24FPS
[15:27:08] <OndraSterver> but 24 FPS seems fluid usually
[15:27:10] <OndraSterver> NOT always!
[15:27:21] <specing> Amadiro: "we puny humans"
[15:27:31] <specing> Amadiro: not "Amadiro the alien"
[15:27:56] <specing> megal0maniac: 2 bit mode? seriously?
[15:28:03] <specing> There is no 2 bit mode...
[15:28:08] <Amadiro> specing, heh. pretty sure it's normal, but it really depends on which part of the retina you use, how bright the light is, et cetera
[15:28:34] <Amadiro> if the light is really bright, the after-image will make it seem fluid after 30 FPS for sure
[15:29:37] <Microboter> we talking a graphic lcd or the run of the mill 2x16 type?
[15:34:15] <megal0maniac> I'm talking about 16x2 text lcd. And is using 8 wires not 2bit?
[15:34:28] <specing> lol
[15:34:51] <specing> megal0maniac fails at math :P
[15:35:15] <megal0maniac> I'm dividing 4 by 2 and getting 2. It's obviously the concept of the sum that's wrong :P
[15:35:22] <Microboter> that is a 8 or 4 bit.
[15:36:15] <Microboter> I have never had a problem with those type displays running in the 4 bit mode
[15:36:43] <megal0maniac> I'm under the impression that "nibble mode" uses 4 wires. Is that my mistake?
[15:37:09] <Microboter> nibble is an old term for 4 bits. half a byte, 8 bits
[15:37:17] <Microboter> there are more then 4 wires
[15:37:35] <Microboter> you still need some control lines as well
[15:38:35] <specing> 4bit mode = 4 data lines + RW + RS + E
[15:38:44] <specing> 8bit mode = 8 data lines + RW + RS + E
[15:38:54] <specing> 7 and 11 pins required, resp.
[15:39:33] <Microboter> RW can be tied to gnd
[15:39:35] <specing> Blecha_ could get rid of the ugly line loop around the left side
[15:39:38] <Microboter> http://www.8051projects.net/lcd-interfacing/lcd-4-bit.php
[15:39:50] <specing> Microboter: yes, if you do timed writes
[15:40:13] <specing> Microboter: if you check for the busy flag (Im sure noone does that anyway) then you need the RW
[15:42:33] <Microboter> I can honestly say i have never checked for a busy on a text display :)
[15:43:30] <megal0maniac> Wow. I just realised how wrong my understanding of this was :P
[15:43:57] <specing> Indeed
[15:44:10] <Microboter> now life will be easy
[15:44:22] <megal0maniac> data wires == bits
[15:44:28] <megal0maniac> Life is easy now
[15:44:30] <OndraSterver> LOL
[15:44:41] <Microboter> once you do it a few times its cake
[15:45:27] <megal0maniac> I use both, but I'm using libraries so I haven't needed to understand what's happening
[15:45:52] <megal0maniac> But now I do. Thank you. And thanks specing for not beating me with 100yr old tree :)
[15:47:14] * specing slams megal0maniac to the ground with his tree just in case
[15:48:49] <megal0maniac> Can I use unsigned integer and byte in place of uint16 and uint8 respectively?
[15:49:04] <specing> DONT
[15:49:25] <specing> Its ambigous
[15:49:26] <OndraSterver> unsigned integer might be 32bit
[15:49:29] <OndraSterver> or 16bit
[15:49:30] <OndraSterver> or 8bit
[15:49:35] <OndraSterver> or whateverbit
[15:49:40] <specing> 5 bit ;P
[15:49:41] <OndraSterver> use uint16 and uint8
[15:49:41] <megal0maniac> In this context, it's specifically 16bit. I'm manipulating in binary.
[15:49:48] <OndraSterver> in this context
[15:49:52] <OndraSterver> does the gcc know the content?
[15:50:00] <OndraSterver> or does it see that you are working "at least" with 16 bits?
[15:50:01] <specing> s/content/context/
[15:50:49] <megal0maniac> I'm using Arduino... I'm not sure if it believes in uint8/16
[15:51:15] <Microboter> int by default in gcc is 16 bit, pretty sure
[15:51:27] <OndraSterver> in avr-gcc maybe
[15:51:31] <OndraSterver> but it is ambigious
[15:51:32] <OndraSterver> what
[15:51:33] <Microboter> sorry yes
[15:51:39] <OndraSterver> what's wrong on writing uint16
[15:52:32] <Microboter> I think he meant the reverse of that, tis better to write it like that. eliminates issues
[15:52:45] <megal0maniac> Just checked. Apparently nothing.
[15:52:55] <megal0maniac> "uint16_t"
[15:53:00] <megal0maniac> What is the t for anyway?
[15:53:13] <Microboter> to piss me off by making it longer
[16:00:47] <specing> megal0maniac: when you need to efficiently pack it into a struct ;)
[16:01:24] <specing> you have it as uint16_t in the struct and then before doing computation you cast it into uint16_fast_t
[16:15:49] <megal0maniac> So... With a uint16_t, you'd have uint16_t testInt = (uint16_fast_t) anotherInteger + 11;
[16:16:10] <specing> no
[16:16:37] <specing> struct s { uint16_t aint; };
[16:17:21] <specing> s.aint = (uint16_t)((uint16_fast_t)s.aint + 11);
[16:19:34] <megal0maniac> Oh! I see. So basically, this will make sense when I learn what a struct is? :P
[16:20:01] <specing> Im sure it will
[16:20:15] * megal0maniac copies
[16:20:42] <megal0maniac> I have 3 years of high school Java. Every day I'm realising how different C is.
[16:20:49] <megal0maniac> And C++
[16:21:32] <specing> s/different/better/
[16:23:11] <Blecha> specing
[16:23:14] <Blecha> I'm home now
[16:23:36] <Blecha> VO isn't disconnected I'm just going to run a jumper up to the trimmer
[16:23:52] <Blecha> that is for the contrast on the screen
[16:24:05] <Blecha> the trimmer puts it between -5v and +5v
[16:24:20] <Blecha> as for all the loops... im trying to work that out.
[16:24:36] <specing> Blecha: -5V?
[16:24:43] <specing> Where do you get -5V?
[16:24:46] <Blecha> I may move the shift register to portC and use port B for LCD control
[16:24:52] * specing prepares his tree
[16:24:57] <Blecha> A pin on the LCD
[16:25:06] * megal0maniac cowers
[16:25:10] <Blecha> has its own supply :D
[16:25:35] <Blecha> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/710
[16:25:40] <Jan-> hihi
[16:25:46] <Jan-> is there any attiny that has hardware SPI?
[16:25:58] <OndraSterver> zes
[16:26:00] <OndraSterver> yes
[16:26:28] <Jan-> kickass
[16:26:29] <Jan-> which one
[16:26:32] <OndraSterver> duh
[16:26:35] <OndraSterver> 85?
[16:26:45] <Blecha> isn't that USI?
[16:27:04] <Jan-> I'd also prefer something that comes in dil8
[16:27:23] * Tom_L wonders which kids had to have help with homework when they were in school too
[16:27:44] <specing> Tom_L: ?
[16:27:59] <Jan-> hey, I did google
[16:28:01] <Tom_L> there are parametric searches ya know
[16:28:02] <Steffanx_> Don't all attinys have hw SPI?
[16:28:10] <Steffanx_> except the 6-pins tinys maybe
[16:28:10] * Blecha didn't do his homework but passed the tests
[16:28:28] <megal0maniac> 85 does have SPI
[16:28:39] <Steffanx_> 13 too
[16:28:40] <Jan-> oh hey Tom_itx
[16:28:51] <Jan-> we used your programmer to do something that's Actually Going To Be Used :)
[16:28:54] <OndraSterver> 13 does not
[16:28:57] <Jan-> It's utterly trivial, but hey :)
[16:28:57] <OndraSterver> not hardware one
[16:29:01] <Blecha> Tom_itx http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=25qr6vm&s=6
[16:29:10] <Blecha> Is not a black screen ^
[16:29:26] * Tom_itx raises an eyebrow and continues working on a batch of programmers
[16:30:01] * Jan- decides that Tom_itx is grumpy
[16:30:22] * Tom_itx is busy
[16:30:29] * Tom_itx is never grumpy
[16:30:54] <Jan-> tom, will your programmer program an attiny85?
[16:31:04] <Tom_itx> why not?
[16:31:05] <Steffanx_> ofcourse
[16:31:17] <Jan-> I'm just a bit confused as to how to handle it
[16:31:26] * Tom_itx wonders what to do with an empty chip tray
[16:31:27] <Blecha> ISP?
[16:31:27] <Jan-> things get confusing when you use some of the programming pins as GPIO.
[16:31:36] <megal0maniac> Tom_L: Not sure if you were referring to me, but this is hobbyist stuff :) School wasn't this much fun
[16:31:38] <Jan-> and I'd need to since a tiny has so few pins.
[16:31:53] <Tom_itx> the guilt rises to the top
[16:31:55] <Tom_itx> :)
[16:32:04] * megal0maniac shrugs
[16:32:14] <megal0maniac> (complacently)
[16:32:39] <Steffanx_> oh, you are right OndraSterver
[16:32:46] <OndraSterver> I know I am right1
[16:33:43] <Jan-> am I overlooking an obvious way to avoid problems conflicting ISP pins with other purposes, or is the answer just "don't use them for anything else"
[16:33:45] <Blecha> Your momma is so loose, I don't even need to sudo to apt-get that ass.
[16:34:35] <megal0maniac> Jan-: I had the idea of using jumpers between the ISP pins and the perhipherals. Remove them when programming
[16:34:45] <OndraSterver> just use external pullup for CS pin
[16:34:49] <OndraSterver> for the external chip
[16:34:58] <OndraSterver> simple as that
[16:34:58] <Jan-> megal0maniac: that's the sort of thing I thought of. But then again you might as well just unplug the chip.
[16:35:27] <megal0maniac> Or http://robotics.org.za/index.php?route=product/product&path=56_182&product_id=341
[16:35:30] <Jan-> I guess you'd only need, what, four jumpers?
[16:35:37] <Jan-> Maybe even just three.
[16:36:11] <Microboter> the tinys are cute, but for the cost difference for a chip that i can dedicate the programming pins is worth the few extra pennies
[16:36:19] <Jan-> It's a space issue.
[16:36:27] <Jan-> Perhaps I should explain the application?
[16:38:24] <OndraSterver> why did everybody ignore my idea
[16:38:26] <OndraSterver> ..
[16:38:39] <Jan-> the external pullup for CS pin thing?
[16:38:43] <Jan-> ...because I didn't entirely understand it
[16:39:02] <megal0maniac> ISP doesn't use pullup :/
[16:39:11] <megal0maniac> Also, CS is active low
[16:39:17] * megal0maniac is confused also
[16:42:14] * megal0maniac loves his Teensy
[16:42:19] <Jan-> the problem is that a tiny has no GPIO that aren't shared :)
[16:42:47] <megal0maniac> ISP only /uses/ 3 pins
[16:43:03] <Jan-> mosi, miso, ans clock?
[16:43:09] <megal0maniac> Correct
[16:43:24] <Jan-> hmm
[16:43:32] <Jan-> the 8 pin layout *is* pretty limited
[16:43:33] <megal0maniac> The other 3 are vdd (target voltage detect), reset and gnd
[16:43:42] <Jan-> are there any that have sort of 16 pins or something
[16:43:51] <Jan-> just so it isn't QUITE so cramped?
[16:43:56] <megal0maniac> ATtiny84?
[16:44:05] <Jan-> hmm okay
[16:44:08] <Jan-> I shall check if it has hardware SPI
[16:44:19] <megal0maniac> It does
[16:44:28] <megal0maniac> Pretty much the same as the 85, but 14 pin
[16:44:40] <Jan-> am I making vague sense, anyway?
[16:44:50] <Jan-> I mean, it seems a bit saner
[16:44:53] <Jan-> for not much more size
[16:45:18] <megal0maniac> Do you know that the loads on those pins will cause issues with ISP?
[16:45:25] <megal0maniac> Or are you guessing?
[16:45:40] <Jan-> well, I've experienced the problem with an atmega168
[16:45:47] <Jan-> when we were direct driving LEDs
[16:46:16] <Jan-> it programmed OK some of the time
[16:46:18] <Jan-> and not other times
[16:46:34] <Jan-> and the LEDs would flicker during programming.
[16:48:06] <megal0maniac> Then ATtiny84 is a easy alternative to the 85 if its pins you want
[16:48:18] <Jan-> I suspect I might not NEED the extra pins.
[16:48:38] <Jan-> But it might be easier when prototyping, and other things in the device will be bigger than a dip14 case anyway
[16:48:59] <Jan-> I guess if I correct the pin assignments I can flash the same code to either device anyway, right?
[16:49:31] <megal0maniac> Um... Yes.
[16:49:45] * Jan- *two thumbs up*
[16:49:49] <Jan-> Awsum
[16:49:55] <megal0maniac> I think so, at least :P
[16:49:57] <Tom_itx> avr is just that way
[16:50:07] <Jan-> the CPUs are all the same, right?
[16:50:10] <Tom_itx> go with megal0maniac's word over the data sheet
[16:50:12] <Jan-> it's not compiling it differently?
[16:50:35] <Tom_itx> you change the chip in the makefile
[16:50:44] * megal0maniac goes looking for the datasheet
[16:50:50] <Jan-> well I suspect I change it in the AVR Studio preferences somewhere
[16:50:51] <Jan-> but yes :)
[16:50:58] <Tom_itx> ewww
[16:51:15] <Jan-> ...grumpy...
[16:51:36] <Microboter> how many in the build batch this time tom?
[16:51:44] <Tom_itx> not many
[16:51:49] <Tom_itx> i'm lazy tonight
[16:52:02] <Tom_itx> i may get a dozen or so done
[16:52:04] <Tom_itx> i dunno
[16:52:21] <megal0maniac> You'll definitely have to change IO assignments, but otherwise they're pretty much the same
[16:52:23] <Microboter> same, been looking at some sensors i need to wire since this morning and they still are not soldered up
[16:52:28] <megal0maniac> Consult the datasheet
[16:52:58] <megal0maniac> Despite my word apparently being more trustworthy
[16:53:03] * megal0maniac gets worried
[16:53:04] <Tom_itx> Microboter just depends how much Jan- bugs me :D
[16:53:13] <Jan-> slightly confused: would one use eeprom or flash to store persistent settings and stuff
[16:53:15] <Microboter> lol
[16:53:25] <megal0maniac> eeprom
[16:53:29] <Tom_itx> flash
[16:53:34] <megal0maniac> :/
[16:53:36] <Tom_itx> heh
[16:53:38] <Tom_itx> eeprom
[16:54:07] <megal0maniac> Flash is only for the code
[16:54:13] <Jan-> eeprom_write_block()?
[16:54:17] <megal0maniac> Can't be changed during runtime
[16:54:22] <Microboter> if they need to be changed after firmware programming eeprom. if no change needed and its a constant then flash
[16:54:37] <Tom_itx> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__avr__pgmspace.html
[16:54:43] <Tom_itx> jan read all about that
[16:55:22] <Tom_itx> then when you finish read all this: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/abcminiuser/articles/progmem_basics_index.php
[16:55:34] <Jan-> can I start with the article on your site
[16:55:47] <Tom_itx> if you like me more sure
[16:55:48] <Jan-> the one you cited is unfriendly to screenreaders
[16:55:56] <Jan-> oh, I don't like you, you're grumpy
[16:56:09] <Jan-> it's just that I don't want to listen to a lot of punctuation being read out in the voice of stephen hawking
[16:56:14] <Jan-> I get enough of that when I'm writing code.
[16:56:40] <Tom_itx> oh i forgot about that part
[16:56:45] <Microboter> I like abc's stuff. the way he builds from basics has a nice flow
[16:56:58] <Jan-> Tom_itx: I'd rather you did.
[16:57:24] * megal0maniac has read all of abc's stuff.
[16:57:50] <megal0maniac> Like it :)
[16:58:03] <Jan-> ok that's program memory stuff
[16:58:13] <Jan-> I mean stuff I want to modify at run time but persist across power cycles
[16:58:27] <megal0maniac> eeprom
[16:58:44] <megal0maniac> Flash won't change unless a programmer gets involved
[16:58:45] <Jan-> uhhuh
[16:59:02] <Jan-> I'm sure I read somewhere about modifying the flash at run time
[16:59:06] <Jan-> but maybe that was something else
[16:59:14] <megal0maniac> Let me know when you find it? :P
[16:59:20] <megal0maniac> Goodnight all
[17:00:06] <megal0maniac> If I'm not back tomorrow, it's because my U2S board from RikusW has arrived :)
[17:00:08] <Jan-> eeprom_write_whatever() seems to require you to do your own housekeeping of eeprom space and give literal addresses.
[17:00:22] * Tom_itx note to self. do not sneeze while doing pick n place
[17:01:29] <Microboter> I have lost a few parts that way, carpet in the assembly area is the black hole for smt
[17:02:26] * megal0maniac imagines Tom_itx searching for a component somewhere on the other side of the room.
[17:02:31] <Jan-> only one question
[17:02:42] <Jan-> if it's electronically erasable and programmable, how is it not just RAM
[17:02:54] <megal0maniac> Because it's persistent
[17:03:13] <megal0maniac> Derived from eeeprom
[17:03:36] <Tom_itx> it's the same but different
[17:03:42] <Jan-> I see
[17:03:50] <Microboter> its special. requires a special way to write it, and it stays when the power goes byby
[17:04:04] <Tom_itx> so does flash
[17:04:08] <Jan-> And uh. Should I assume that all of eeprom is available to me the whole time, and I should just pick suitable addresses for things and use it freely?
[17:04:22] <Jan-> Or is it used for other stuff too?
[17:04:29] <megal0maniac> eeprom is all yours
[17:04:33] <Tom_itx> i don't think so
[17:04:34] <Jan-> kickass
[17:04:43] <Tom_itx> you can be greedy with it if you like
[17:04:55] <megal0maniac> Wasteful, even
[17:04:59] <Jan-> so is the eeprom actually flash
[17:05:04] <Jan-> or is it something else (so it doesn't wear out)
[17:05:08] <Tom_itx> no it is eeprom
[17:05:12] <Tom_itx> flash is flash
[17:05:19] <Jan-> I mean at the hardware level
[17:05:26] <Tom_itx> no they are different
[17:05:44] <megal0maniac> It can actually survive more write/erase cycles than the flash can. Something like 10x as many
[17:05:50] <Jan-> right
[17:05:51] <Tom_itx> google both. they are different technology
[17:06:10] <Jan-> I understood that they were, I just wondered in this situation if they were implemented with the same underlying technology
[17:06:18] <Jan-> inasmuch as flash is a type of eeprom, I guess.
[17:07:30] <megal0maniac> I like this: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/06/07/flash-destroyer-dead-at-11-49-million/
[17:08:22] <Jan-> what's that, some sort of flash testing thing
[17:09:32] <megal0maniac> Kind of. They killed it. 11.5 million read/write cycles before it failed
[17:09:35] <Jan-> apparently this has visibly shitty soldering: http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Perfect-High-Quality-New-NRF24L01-2-4GHz-Wireless-Transceiver-Module-Arduino-/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/$(KGrHqV,!qsE+nmq)TvlBP9m)gnlr!~~60_12.JPG
[17:09:52] <Jan-> the ebau auction is for "perfect high quality new nrf24l01 transceiver"
[17:10:05] <smeding> that URL is visibly shitty as well ;-)
[17:10:18] <Jan-> blame ebau
[17:10:19] <smeding> Jan-: haha, yeah, it does
[17:10:35] <Jan-> also it has an IRQ pin
[17:10:41] <Jan-> I thought IRQs were a PC thing
[17:10:42] <Microboter> yes that is crappy soldering
[17:10:53] <Jan-> I guess in that situation it just means "I've recevied some data and am buffering it for your attention"
[17:11:43] <megal0maniac> Mkay, bye :)
[17:11:46] * megal0maniac waves
[17:12:04] <smeding> Jan-: basically, yes. interrupts are pretty universal
[17:12:15] <Jan-> fair enough
[17:12:27] <Jan-> but to be honest you'd get an interrupt from an AVR if it sent some SPI data anyway, wouldn't you?
[17:13:32] <smeding> i don't think it can initiate transfers
[17:13:36] <Jan-> oh.
[17:13:37] <smeding> i think the MCU has to drive the clock
[17:13:44] <smeding> so the IRQ is nice for that
[17:13:45] <Jan-> right
[17:13:51] <smeding> on the AVR side, you can just use an interrupt pin
[17:13:55] <Jan-> I wonder if there's a library for these things
[17:13:56] <smeding> and on that interrupt, clock out the data
[17:13:59] <smeding> i think so
[17:14:44] <Jan-> the AVR I'm considering has hardware SPI
[17:14:48] <Jan-> I'm not sure what if any difference that makes
[17:14:59] <smeding> it's just nicer to work with the SPI
[17:15:16] <Jan-> what d'you mean
[17:15:24] <smeding> instead of telling it when pins go up or down, you just tell it to write a byte
[17:15:35] <Jan-> well I'd be more interested in reading I guess
[17:15:42] <smeding> then you tell it to read a byte :)
[17:16:02] <smeding> instead of telling it high, low, high low, low, high, low etc.
[17:16:12] <Jan-> right
[17:16:20] <Jan-> need to find a datasheet for this transceiver module I guess
[17:16:36] <smeding> the module is just a breakout board for the chip
[17:16:45] <Jan-> s'ok I have it
[17:16:51] <smeding> with a crystal, some bypassing components and antenna
[17:17:04] <smeding> so yeah you just need the one for the chip, which is made by Nordic iirc
[17:18:03] <Jan-> I've got it
[17:18:57] <Jan-> wow
[17:19:01] <Jan-> it's got lots of intelligence built in
[17:19:06] <smeding> yeah the chips are pretty fancy
[17:19:08] <smeding> they do a custom protocol
[17:19:11] <Jan-> some of the things I was thinking about how to do in software, it does itself
[17:19:22] <Jan-> the amount of tech you get for $3 these days is krayzee :/
[17:19:27] <smeding> hehe
[17:19:40] <smeding> strangely i don't see them in the wild much
[17:20:08] <smeding> only two things i've seen Nordic chips in is Logitech wireless mouse dongles and polling things for classrooms
[17:20:40] <Jan-> sheesh
[17:20:46] <Jan-> in some ways I'd have preferred to write this myself
[17:20:50] <Jan-> then at least I'd know how it worked
[17:20:54] <Jan-> the datasheet is a bit wordy
[17:21:08] <smeding> hehe
[17:24:04] <Jan-> ffs
[17:24:05] <Jan-> If the PLOS_CNT in the PTX device
[17:24:05] <Jan-> indicates to high rate of packet losses, the device can be configured to a PRX device
[17:24:05] <Jan-> for a short time (Tstbt2a + CD-filter delay = 130µs+128µs = 258µs) to check CD.
[17:24:11] * Jan- boggles
[17:25:47] <Jan-> god, tell me there's a lib for this thing
[17:29:40] <OndraSterver> many
[17:29:44] * OndraSterver is a God
[17:34:09] <Jan-> cool in the gang
[17:34:25] * Jan- almost feels ready to start buying enough parts to make a prototype!
[17:37:32] <Tom_itx> haha
[17:37:54] <Tom_itx> just noticed a 0402 r in the pic n place suction tube
[17:39:01] <Jan-> Phil has been going slowly mad trying to solder 1206 LEDs recently
[17:40:30] <Tom_itx> holy crap... those are huge
[17:40:35] <Tom_itx> you could trip over one of those
[17:42:28] <qartis> does anyone have experience with avr-libc's boot.h? specifically the SPM macros
[17:42:43] <qartis> http://pastebin.com/7a3xtYsE
[17:43:05] <qartis> I'm trying to erase flash page 0, and then fill it with incrementing bytes 01 02 03 04
[17:43:19] <qartis> but it doesn't seem to do anything
[17:45:56] <qartis> the atmega32 has 0x4000 bytes of flash, and I know the SPM instruction needs to be within the bootloader section
[17:46:09] <qartis> so I've configured the bootloader to be 2k
[17:46:32] <qartis> and I've put the flash_write() function at 0x3800, which is definitely within the bootloader section
[17:57:50] <Jan-> I assume that choosing short variable and function names has zero effect on compiled code size - it doens't encode the names anywhere, does it?
[18:01:07] <qartis> Jan-: you can store the original variable names in the compiled code to make debugging easier, but the variable names would never get programmed onto the chip
[18:01:39] <Jan-> right
[18:06:51] <oinkoink-> Can someone tell me if such a circuit is viable? The rationale is that the LD turns on when the avr pin is GND, and turns off when it is FLOATing -- leaving the current to the dummy load. Would such a design only handle up to 200ma (before blowing AVR?) -- http://imgur.com/CkxKA
[18:08:32] <qartis> oinkoink-: wouldn't it be simpler to use something like a mosfet?
[18:08:42] <qartis> or is that just a theoretical question?
[18:09:25] <oinkoink-> qartis, it would. Only: a) I don't have one at hand, b) mosfets have ~20ns ON, ~40ns OFF time, at best.
[18:10:56] <Tom_itx> you would need a drive transistor
[18:11:11] <Tom_itx> i didn't click btw
[18:12:06] <oinkoink-> What's a drive transistor? Seems like an exotic component. Also, click? :)
[18:14:21] <Tom_itx> the avr pin won't handle 200mA
[18:14:35] <Tom_itx> you need a mosfet or some transistor to drive the laser diode
[18:15:00] <Tom_itx> connect the gate or base of the mosfet / transistor to the avr pin
[18:18:21] <oinkoink-> Okidoo
[18:18:35] <oinkoink-> Sounds like mosfet is the simplest way to go.
[18:19:27] <Tom_itx> yeah
[18:20:31] <Tom_itx> FDN337N
[18:20:38] <Tom_itx> STC5NF30V
[18:20:47] <Tom_itx> PMV30UN T/R
[18:20:53] <Tom_itx> are a few
[18:21:06] <Tom_itx> i think those are logic gate drive
[18:22:04] * Tom_itx opens a fresh tray of chips
[18:24:27] <Jan-> they make those cute "logic level FETs"
[18:24:42] <Jan-> which I guess is just an integrated lump of silicon with the fet itself and drivers to operate from 5v at some very low current
[18:46:40] * Tom_itx presses 'start' on the easy bake oven
[18:47:37] <Jan-> are you one of those neo-studenty type people who lives on corn chips and instant ramen
[18:48:08] <Tom_itx> no maaam
[18:48:41] * Jan- sniffs at Tom_itx's finger
[18:48:44] <Jan-> NACHO CHEESE!
[18:48:47] <Jan-> You lieeee!
[18:49:52] <Jan-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmgcjRu1s-8#t=0m20s
[18:50:13] <Tom_itx> why would i click on that?
[18:50:53] <Jan-> Because it's Invader Zim, and he's hilarious :)
[18:53:45] * Jan- wanders off, muttering about how some people don't know how to have any fun
[18:53:47] <Jan-> ...grumpy...
[18:57:07] <Tom_itx> ok, the avr cookies are done
[18:59:06] <Jan-> there are exactly one peoples selling attiny84 on ebay.
[18:59:15] <Jan-> And they're in the US, which means their postage is a bit scary to the UK.
[18:59:52] <Jan-> Oh well actually. FIve for $13 plus like $4 postage seems OK. Whaddayathink?
[19:00:24] <Tom_itx> i stopped thinking at 5:00
[19:00:45] <Jan-> long day huh
[19:01:53] <Jan-> looking on google shopping that's actually a very decent price
[19:03:20] <oinkoink-> Tom_itx, would this be a good candidate? I believe my local store carries it: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N7000.pdf
[19:07:41] <Tom_itx> max 3v gate voltage
[19:08:12] <Tom_itx> threshold
[19:08:17] <Tom_itx> you could try one
[19:08:31] <oinkoink-> dammit, I guess the avr's 5v would fry it?
[19:09:02] <oinkoink-> unless I add I drop the avr's voltage with a diode or two?
[19:09:28] <Tom_itx> just add a resistor between the pin and gate
[19:09:50] <Tom_itx> figure a 2v drop across it and see what happens
[19:13:12] <Casper> look like I got lucky
[19:13:17] <oinkoink-> sounds right.. 50 ohms should provide a 2v drop @ the pin's 40ma output.
[19:13:24] <Casper> the converter I made, which is FAR from being compilant, work!
[19:13:35] <Casper> rs232 <=> 3.3V
[19:14:06] <Casper> look like sending 0.5/3.3V to the rs232 is enought
[19:15:25] <Casper> I'm actually surprised that it work at all
[19:15:32] <Casper> 115200 too :D
[19:16:01] <Tom_itx> heh
[19:16:59] <Casper> really, it's frightening
[19:20:09] <Casper> router -> almost 2 feet of wire to breadboard, 3.3V is from the router too. router tx -> 3.3k -> base of 2n3904 3.3V -> 1.6k -> collector -> rs232 rx via aligator wire, emitter -> ground rs232 tx -> aligator wire -> 1n4148 -> 3.3k -> base of 2n3904 3.3v -> 1k -> collector -> router rx, emitter -> ground
[19:20:18] <Casper> and yes, all wires are almost 2' each
[20:08:04] <Tom_itx> ok another dozen tested
[20:17:12] <jadew> any idea if a jumper wire, about 10cm long + breadboard could screw up a 750 000 baud rate usart?
[20:17:38] <jadew> I'm getting characters fine when I'm sending them one by one
[20:17:57] <jadew> but if more get sent at the same time, I end up with garbage
[20:18:15] <Tom_itx> parity ok?
[20:18:25] <Tom_itx> stop bits etc?
[20:18:34] <jadew> good point, it should be, let me take a look
[20:18:50] <Kevin`> jadew: does your receiving uart have a buffer?
[20:19:06] <Kevin`> alternately, it would have to be able to process input continuously
[20:20:11] <jadew> Kevin`, no buffer, however if that would be the case, I would see missing characters, not garbage
[20:21:26] <jadew> let me dig a bit deeper in the specs for this pic (I'm trying to rewrite a mcp2200's firmware)
[21:46:19] <Thetawaves> i'm trying to program flash, but the spm instruction doesn't work
[21:46:32] <Thetawaves> from what i've been reading, that is because the code isn't running from th bls section
[21:47:13] <Thetawaves> but i put it a .boot section with a linker defining that to the start of the boot loader memory
[21:48:04] <Thetawaves> asdfjk
[21:48:29] <Thetawaves> pulling my hair out, hate it when shit silently fails
[21:48:52] <Tom_itx> program flash from your program?
[21:48:58] <Tom_itx> you weren't that specific
[21:49:06] <Tom_itx> but i don't think i can help you anyway
[21:49:45] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Mate I'm not understanding how the different package types get programmed
[21:49:54] <Richard_Cavell> By package types I mean that some AVRs are DIP, some are ball grid array
[21:49:56] <Richard_Cavell> etc
[21:50:03] <Richard_Cavell> How do they all fit on the same programming board?
[21:50:15] <Tom_itx> well they don't
[21:50:29] <Tom_itx> the pinouts will be described in the data sheet for each package though
[21:50:53] <Tom_itx> ie a mega168 dip has a different pinout than a mega168 tqfp
[21:50:58] <Richard_Cavell> right
[21:51:07] <Tom_itx> and the pin numbers won't be the same
[21:51:14] <Tom_itx> but they are in the data sheet
[21:51:15] <Richard_Cavell> so is it up to the user to connect the programming wires to the right pins?
[21:51:21] <Tom_itx> yessir
[21:51:26] <Thetawaves> Tom_itx, yeah, i load up data into a 256byte array in memory, and then call page erase on the flash, and then load the page buffer with 256 bytes, and then call the write command to write that page buffer to a 256byte aligned address in flash
[21:51:32] <Tom_itx> unless you get a prefabbed board ready to go
[21:52:01] <Tom_itx> Thetawaves, are they byte or word aligned?
[21:52:05] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure
[21:52:10] <Tom_itx> word boundaries
[21:52:12] <Tom_itx> maybe
[21:52:16] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: So if I'm developing a program for an AVR, would it be typical to have a board made up that has programming points where you plug in the programming wires, and then for the production model, remove those points?
[21:52:17] <Thetawaves> the calls with spm are byte aligned, even though you fill the buffer a word at a time
[21:52:35] <Tom_itx> Richard_Cavell you could
[21:52:39] <Tom_itx> or you could leave them
[21:53:17] <Tom_itx> i considered using those pin point connectors like cell batteries use to make one at one point
[21:53:22] <Tom_itx> then just hold it on the board
[21:53:34] <Tom_itx> spring loaded
[21:54:18] <Thetawaves> Tom_itx, i'm using the code supplied in the avrlibc webpage, i assume that it is perfect (and it looks perfect to me)
[21:54:18] <Tom_itx> alot of boards just leave the isp header
[21:54:36] <Thetawaves> so i'm not really sure whats going on, maybe objcopy is putting my code in the wrong place?
[21:54:46] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Is it typical to program an AVR in-situ, or do many people unplug it and put it in a programming socket?
[21:54:53] <Tom_itx> Thetawaves, i'm not sure i can help you. i've never done a bootloader that writes flash
[21:54:55] <Tom_itx> i know you can
[21:55:26] <Tom_itx> Richard_Cavell i can only speak for myself.
[21:55:47] <Tom_itx> if you were concerned about cost, you may just put test points on the board and program from those
[21:55:59] <Tom_itx> make some sort of adapter to fit
[21:56:00] <Richard_Cavell> I'm more concerned about workflow than cost
[21:56:41] <Tom_itx> once again it depends on the type of chip you select. bga, tqfp, dip, mlf etc
[21:56:52] <Tom_itx> some of those sockets are quite expensive
[21:57:14] <Tom_itx> but you could make an adapter and preprogram before soldering if you wanted to
[21:57:18] <Tom_itx> i've done that in the past
[21:57:31] <Tom_itx> on a tiny2313
[21:58:03] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/attiny2313/attiny9.jpg
[21:58:11] <Tom_itx> i held the chip on with my thumb :D
[21:59:00] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Well mate with all due respect to your programmers, I'm going to buy a STK600
[21:59:25] <Tom_itx> that's fine
[21:59:48] <Tom_itx> i don't think you need that much programmer though
[22:00:28] <Thetawaves> Richard_Cavell, why would you waste your money like that
[22:01:19] <Richard_Cavell> I don't care about money, I want the best workflow
[22:01:19] <Thetawaves> if you want to program megas and tinys just get a usbtinyisp
[22:01:19] <Richard_Cavell> The STK600 is $200 but if I'm getting paid say $20 an hour, that's 10 hours' work
[22:01:19] <Tom_itx> i don't own one so i can't say but i think it takes more configuring for each chip you use on it
[22:01:19] <Tom_itx> someone here could speak better on that i'm sure
[22:01:35] <Tom_itx> mine would cost you about 15 min :D
[22:01:41] <Thetawaves> all my boards have in circuit programming ports, i have almost no need for the stk features
[22:02:49] <Richard_Cavell> I also want something that will allow me to run the AVR and let me input/output
[22:03:09] <Richard_Cavell> There are some PIC boards that have LED displays set up for the PIC to sue
[22:03:10] <Richard_Cavell> use
[22:03:16] <Tom_itx> a simple serial io will do that
[22:03:26] <Tom_itx> you would need a usb/serial thingy
[22:03:43] <Tom_itx> or if you had a rs232 port a level translator for it
[22:03:48] <Thetawaves> flipping leds will get old FAST
[22:03:58] <Thetawaves> you will want to get serial working
[22:04:20] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/mega168_rs232_index.php
[22:04:27] <Tom_itx> there's one such adapter shown there
[22:04:39] <Tom_itx> for the older pc's that still have serial ports
[22:05:15] <Tom_itx> then just use hyperterm or some such serial capture program
[22:06:07] <Tom_itx> a ft232 will work for usb i believe
[22:06:41] <Thetawaves> besides, your comparison of time to money is irrelevant
[22:06:51] <Thetawaves> you want to learn all this stuff anyway
[22:07:34] <Tom_itx> ok, dozen more ready to go
[22:09:14] <Tom_itx> i'm not really saying what i'm saying just because i have programmers. i honestly think the stk600 is overkill for what you're after
[22:12:45] <Tom_itx> i _do_ have several ppl using them in production though
[22:13:50] <vorsorken> You guys have any thoughts about USBasp?
[22:14:16] <Tom_itx> faik it only works with ISP and is a bitbanged USB programmer
[22:14:25] <Tom_itx> which translates to slow
[22:14:38] <Tom_itx> they do work though
[22:14:49] <Tom_itx> i had a similar one for a while
[22:15:04] <vorsorken> Slow isn't really a big deal for me I don't think. I'm trying to move away from Arduino and found one for $3.50.
[22:15:32] <Tom_itx> you can hardly go wrong for that even if it doesn't work
[22:15:38] <Tom_itx> will give you good experience
[22:15:46] <vorsorken> Right my thoughts exactly
[22:15:56] <Tom_itx> they should work with avrdude but not studio
[22:16:09] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: Just out of interest, how do your programmers do the programming? Do you have a chip that programs the AVR?
[22:16:39] <Tom_itx> my newer ones use an avr USB chip and a buffer chip
[22:17:03] <Tom_itx> vorsorken, this would be more similar to the USBasp: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/usbtiny_programmer/testing_index.php
[22:17:15] <Tom_itx> only i'm not sure if the USBasp is buffered or not
[22:17:45] <Tom_itx> for that price i doubt if it is
[22:17:46] <Richard_Cavell> Tom_itx: So it uses an AVR to pump out the data at the required rate and format?
[22:17:57] <Tom_itx> yessir
[22:19:26] <Richard_Cavell> so does the AVR sort of keep the program in its RAM and then bit bang the program into the AVR?
[22:19:39] <Tom_itx> no
[22:19:55] <Tom_itx> it just sends it thru in the proper format
[22:20:01] <Tom_itx> protocol
[22:20:20] <Richard_Cavell> but wouldn't the program come from the computer via the USB cable?
[22:20:28] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:21:06] <Casper> it probably only hold a few bytes at most
[22:22:26] <Richard_Cavell> Does this lead to buffer under-run problems, or does the AVR that's being programmed allow the program to come in slower?
[22:22:39] <Tom_itx> it is clocked by the programmer
[22:22:52] <Tom_itx> programming has little to do with the target clock speed
[22:25:15] <Casper> you could dip switch program it
[22:25:25] <Tom_itx> yeah if you were good
[22:25:27] <Richard_Cavell> Does AVR Studio come in an OSX version?
[22:25:39] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure
[22:25:40] <Casper> Tom_itx: good? no, insane!
[22:25:44] <Tom_itx> i don't think so
[22:25:47] <Tom_itx> heh
[22:26:03] <Casper> imagine how many switch toggling you would need to do!
[22:26:21] <Tom_itx> steffanx uses osx i believe but he's not here right now
[22:26:38] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure what he uses but he's got one of mine as well
[22:26:47] <Tom_itx> probably avrdude i would suspect
[22:27:25] <Tom_itx> Casper i'm sure you'd code in copy con too
[22:27:26] <Richard_Cavell> I want to use the official software
[22:27:32] <Tom_itx> why?
[22:27:41] <Richard_Cavell> I want to learn the official way
[22:27:43] <Tom_itx> you will be using windows then
[22:27:53] <Richard_Cavell> And I have a Windows machine anyway
[22:28:15] <Tom_itx> studio 5 5.1 and 6 are rather bloated software
[22:28:47] <Tom_itx> i must say i really don't like them due to the load times
[22:28:58] <Richard_Cavell> that shouldn't matter
[22:29:05] <Tom_itx> they use visual studio engine
[22:29:07] <Richard_Cavell> it's whether or not you can express what you want the AVR to do and program it
[22:29:31] <Tom_itx> yeah but that can be done alot more efficiently other ways
[22:29:40] <Tom_itx> it's entirely up to the end user i suppose
[22:30:18] <Tom_itx> avrdude will work under linux, windows or osx
[22:30:41] <Tom_itx> i will tell you though i use studio 4 most of the time for uploading hex files
[22:30:53] <Richard_Cavell> avrdude is command line based
[22:30:53] <Tom_itx> and use an editor to write the code
[22:31:04] <Tom_itx> i don't like studio's environment that much
[22:31:14] <Tom_itx> yes it's command line based
[22:31:25] <Tom_itx> you can call it from a makefile as well
[22:31:36] <Tom_itx> so you build your file and send it all at once
[22:37:10] <Microboter> I didnt like studio all that much until I upgraded my PC. Studio is bloatware. Since the upgrade to version 6 and the PC getting an upgrade I find it decent. One click compile and chip program is nice.
[22:38:18] <Tom_itx> i've got 6 sitting here but haven't loaded it yet
[22:39:58] <Microboter> With my weak C skills the integrated IDE helps. I couldn't build a make file if i had to.
[22:40:44] <Tom_itx> i just mod ones i've gotten different places
[22:41:36] <Microboter> The sim has been helpful while learning C. Has a few quirks but once you know them it can be handy
[22:42:11] <Tom_itx> i've looked at those a couple times
[22:42:20] <Tom_itx> adc and interrupts don't sim that well
[22:43:26] <Microboter> the interrupt is one of the bugs. You can't single step and have one trip. You have to set a breakpoint in the ISR to get a loop threw
[22:47:25] <Microboter> also stepping threw a sei() will not show the global flag being set in the cpu registers. Set a break after it and it does. go figure
[22:49:06] <Tom_itx> well i almost got caught up tonight
[22:49:25] <Microboter> nice tom. good to see them moving
[22:49:44] <Tom_itx> oh not just that
[22:50:52] <Tom_itx> i found out one of my keyboards has a 'pwr' button on it tonight. i set some stuff on it to get it out of the way and one of my pc's kept turning on
[22:50:53] <Tom_itx> :D
[22:51:11] <Microboter> lol
[22:52:41] <Tom_itx> i've gone thru so many keyboards i get the cheapest ones i can find nowdays
[22:53:27] <Tom_itx> i had a couple old omnikey ones which one of them still work but i've long since worn the buttons off the 2nd set i put on it
[22:53:37] <Microboter> why is it that F8 is the freaking key that dies on mine....
[22:54:14] <Microboter> had 3 over the years that all lost F8
[22:54:56] <Microboter> its not like i use that stupid key a bunch
[22:54:56] * Tom_itx dims the lights and heads for bed
[22:55:03] <Microboter> nite tom
[22:55:15] <Tom_itx> you done much with your lathe lately?
[22:55:30] <Tom_itx> i had somebody asking me about them the other day
[22:55:33] <Microboter> not a tone. but a few things, few wheel hubs
[22:55:45] <Microboter> I still like it
[22:55:56] <Tom_itx> i'd still like to have it
[22:56:11] <Microboter> I wish i had more time to play with it
[22:56:23] <Microboter> I am yet to thread anything with it yet
[22:56:30] <Microboter> was one of my goals
[22:56:49] <Tom_itx> i considered sitting down and figuring out the gears on mine to try one
[22:56:53] <Tom_itx> but i haven't yet
[22:56:59] <Tom_itx> they're all manual change gears
[22:57:19] <Microboter> several change gears on this one as well.
[22:57:48] <Tom_itx> anyway... ttyl
[22:58:00] <Microboter> changing the 3 and 4 jaw still scares me. if that sucker gets loose its 80 lbs
[23:00:19] <Tom_itx> put a stick thru it and support the end
[23:00:57] <Microboter> I meant if i screw up and dont get the D clicked in right, that sucker can spin that 80 lbs at 5000 rpm
[23:01:01] <Microboter> :)
[23:01:33] <Tom_itx> i take it you found that out
[23:02:01] <Microboter> no, i just look at everything like that! i am paranoid
[23:02:50] <Tom_itx> the little cnc i ran would do that if you selected constant surface speed and forgot to set the upper limit
[23:03:00] <Microboter> but i did have my little taigs chuck fly loose one day, that was bad enough
[23:03:43] <Tom_itx> when you parted off a part and it got close to the center it would really fly
[23:04:20] <Microboter> eww, ill let you get to bed Tom, have a good evening bud :)
[23:04:29] <Tom_itx> later