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[00:00:51] <ThersiT> I commented out the function OSCCAL_calibration while I had a 18.432MHz xtal in. That wasn't working so I went down to the internal RC like the butterfly uses. Still no love tho
[00:01:26] <Casper> if you want a good uart lib
[00:01:35] <Casper> look up for peter fleury's uart lib
[00:06:14] <ThersiT> heh. Long story, I was using his but, I was having trouble receiving cmds to the avr so I had a look at the stdio example on avr-libc's site. That example relies heavily on fgets which I heard in this chan might not be a good way to go...
[00:06:27] <gkwhc> might anyone have experience writing audio data (at least 44.1KHz) to FAT32 formatted SD card through SPI? i was wondering if this is doable (considering SPI speed, DMA, FAT32 overhead, etc).
[00:08:38] <ThersiT> So I'm reading this book, which has as an example, writing a simple cmd interpreter along with basic beginners c programming which I really need. :)
[00:27:13] <ThersiT> Alright, thanks Casper, thanks Capn. I gotta go down for the night, that damn waking up for work thing. I'll mess with this next week.
[01:41:00] <mog> anyone know if i can get 3.3v 5 mA out of a cr2032?
[01:42:13] <CapnKernel> mog: Should be ok, lots of disposable LED torches put a white LED straight across a 3V coin cell
[01:42:19] <CapnKernel> Not to say how long it will last though
[01:43:05] <mog> CapnKernel, im trying to drive a display. when i hooked it to my bench supply at 3.3v it pulls 5mA. when i hook the same display to my fresh cr2032 it works but it is very dim
[01:43:32] <CapnKernel> What voltage drop are you measuring across the cell when it's under load?
[01:43:41] <CapnKernel> And unloaded
[01:43:48] <mog> the fresh battery goes to like 2.7
[01:44:12] <mog> unloaded its 2.98 or so
[01:44:59] <CapnKernel> http://www.armory.com/swallow.html
[01:45:12] <CapnKernel> Well you've just answered your own question about whether it can supply 3.3v
[01:45:14] <mog> i had a 3.3 ldo lying around but it didnt seem to work any better
[01:45:35] <CapnKernel> What were you trying to do with the regulator?
[01:45:37] <mog> i didnt have meter handy to test though
[01:45:50] <mog> i was trying to boost the power to the display
[01:45:55] <mog> voltage i mean
[01:45:58] <CapnKernel> Regulators don't boost dude
[01:46:38] <CapnKernel> They can only drop voltage (and they do that by turning the excess into heat)
[01:46:42] <mog> heh im far to tired yes
[01:46:54] <CapnKernel> But thanks for the laugh
[01:47:13] <CapnKernel> Usually the smoke comes from your circuit. In your case, it comes from the crack pipe :-)
[01:47:16] <CapnKernel> (Only kidding)
[01:47:57] <CapnKernel> There are chips which will boost low voltages to 3.3v. But you're also talking inductors and capacitors and stuff.
[01:48:11] <CapnKernel> And complexity
[01:48:22] <mog> right i need to find a dc/dc charge pump i think
[01:48:53] <CapnKernel> If you're doing stuff with an AVR, newer models will work down to 1.8V, so you may not need 3.3v for the micro
[01:49:21] <CapnKernel> By display, do you mean an LCD backlight? An LED display?
[01:49:29] <mog> right just the display seems to be having problems
[01:49:39] <mog> the avr is fine
[01:53:46] <CapnKernel> Do you mean an LCD backlight? An LED display?
[02:55:57] <mog> the display not the backlight
[08:45:11] <specing> Hmm
[08:45:26] <specing> Anyone knows the formula for calculating voltage drop across DC?
[08:48:20] <CapnKernel> specing: Your question does not make sense.
[08:48:47] <specing> D:
[08:49:38] <specing> I know it goes something like this: Ud = l * I * ? / U * S * ?
[08:52:11] * CapnKernel is giving specing funny looks
[08:53:29] <specing> ...
[08:53:51] <specing> I don't want to /join ##electronics
[08:53:56] <specing> They will eat me alive!
[08:54:49] <specing> Meh
[09:02:17] <specing> Maybe s/formula/equation/?
[09:02:24] <jacekowski> specing: it depends on what values do you have
[09:02:29] <jacekowski> specing: it's basic ohms law
[09:02:37] <jacekowski> I*R
[09:02:39] <specing> l, S, I?
[09:02:54] <specing> Hmm, resistance is also length
[09:04:08] <specing> Ok, Im talking crap
[09:09:03] <CapnKernel> specing: Do you mean the voltage drop across wire of a given length and cross-section?
[09:09:41] <CapnKernel> Because your original question makes about as much sense as "Anyone knows the formula for calculating pressure drop across water?"
[09:16:05] <specing> CapnKernel: yes
[09:16:14] <specing> lol
[09:16:56] <CapnKernel> Yes what?
[09:17:17] <CapnKernel> specing: I don't want to rain on your parade (this isn't ##electronics), but are you on something?
[09:17:27] <CapnKernel> Suffering heat-stroke?
[09:17:49] <specing> yes to the "< CapnKernel> specing: Do you mean the voltage drop across wire of a given length and cross-section?"
[09:18:31] <CapnKernel> It would have been helpful to say that then.
[09:19:28] <CapnKernel> Anyway, Google is really good at this sort of thing, you should try it some time:
http://google.com/search?q=voltage+drop+wire+cross+section
[09:19:46] <mrfrenzy_> specing:
http://www.miscel.dk/MiscEl/miscel.html this is very useful
[09:20:15] <mrfrenzy_> are you talking pcb track or cables?
[09:20:30] <specing> cables
[09:21:40] <CapnKernel> We don't have it in Australia, so I'm not exactly sure, but is this somewhat how Jeopardy goes?
[09:22:07] <mrfrenzy_> http://24volt.eu/kalkyl_kabelarea.php
[09:22:09] <mrfrenzy_> I use this
[09:22:16] <mrfrenzy_> there is a great one in english too, but I forgot the url
[10:36:18] * other019 is now away - Reason : afk
[10:36:59] <Tom_itx> same thing isn't it?
[10:54:35] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser_ any necessary updates i should be aware of?
[13:40:06] <specing> Is it just me or is mouser terribly slow for everyone?
[13:43:16] <alexh> just you
[14:06:56] <OndraSter> specing, all the time
[14:07:34] <specing> It first loads 85% and then takes like 5 min to do the other 15%
[14:08:33] <OndraSter> I didn't check that, but I know that it is taking ages to do anything
[14:17:00] <z1ph> tools says it loads 500kb of js before it can finish rendering
[14:17:43] <z1ph> 23 separate js fetches too,
[14:18:06] <z1ph> and no cache expiration on any of it
[14:18:15] <z1ph> still seems to be snapy enough for me most of the time.
[14:18:30] <specing> :O
[14:50:37] <razekinn> what is the point of using PSTR macro (defined in avr/pgmspace.h) in cases like this:
[14:50:38] <razekinn> LCD_puts(PSTR("Program Memory String"));
[14:50:59] <z1ph> means the string is loaded from flash,
[14:51:08] <z1ph> instead of being stored in flash, then copie dto ram at boot up
[14:51:15] <z1ph> avr-libc faq has a good section on it.
[14:51:18] <z1ph> it's worth a read.
[14:51:32] <moonmaNamnoom> one does not simply taco into mordor!
[14:58:02] <razekinn> I just read.. the PSTR macro stores in flash the string and then it is retrieved in execution time.. the advantage is not to use RAM, that's it?
[16:47:45] <learningc> yohoo! I have received my AVR samples!
[16:48:05] <specing> tell
[16:48:36] <learningc> 3 fedex express packages today!
[16:48:47] <specing> 3?!?!
[16:48:52] <learningc> yeah!
[16:49:00] <specing> How big?
[16:49:17] <learningc> 1 box in each
[16:49:22] <specing> 0o
[16:49:30] <learningc> I'm not sure why they ship them separately
[16:49:57] <OndraSter> AVR samples :o)
[16:49:58] <OndraSter> from where
[16:50:04] <learningc> yeah! :)
[16:50:15] <OndraSter> you must be really big fish then :)
[16:50:23] <learningc> 3 parts of 3 each
[16:50:56] <specing> which ones?
[16:51:04] <learningc> shipped by fedex express in single packages... :)
[16:51:11] <OndraSter> I ordered samples from ADI 3 weeks ago... one shipped one day, two shipped second day and last chip shipped the 3rd day
[16:51:15] <OndraSter> all of them arrived the same day lol
[16:51:55] <OndraSter> I accidentaly ordered just 1pc of every chip instead of 2... oh well, there will be only one prototype that I must not burn :X
[16:52:00] <OndraSter> hopefuly
[16:52:07] <OndraSter> and hopefuly there will be reason for making more!
[16:52:41] <learningc> at32uc3c0512c, at32uc3c2512c, at32uc3a0512
[16:53:09] <specing> Ah, avr32
[16:53:13] <learningc> yeah
[16:53:32] <learningc> I had no reason to order the low speed ones
[16:53:47] <specing> Are they ARMs?
[16:53:58] <specing> Or a subset of the ARM arch?
[16:54:04] <OndraSter> no
[16:54:07] <specing> Or a completely diff design
[16:54:08] <OndraSter> it is AVR32
[16:54:09] <OndraSter> :)
[16:54:13] <specing> I heard linux runs there
[16:54:14] <learningc> I don't know yet, haven't even cheaked the datasheet
[16:54:18] <specing> lol
[16:54:19] <OndraSter> lol learningc
[16:54:23] <OndraSter> how did you get them?
[16:54:30] <learningc> from their website
[16:54:30] <specing> sampling in the blind it is
[16:54:36] <learningc> you place the order
[16:54:39] <OndraSter> samples on their website never worked for me :(
[16:54:44] <learningc> then they send you back an email
[16:55:05] <learningc> you reply back to that email and they confirm your order
[16:55:17] <OndraSter> btw, when guy from TNT called me, I understood him "hello, AT&T here" so I was like... "wait what? AT&T in europe?"
[16:55:22] <OndraSter> hmm
[16:55:32] <learningc> and after 1 and half month of waiting, I finally got those damnn samples! :)
[16:55:36] <OndraSter> :D
[16:56:52] <learningc> next step is to work out those damn samples! :)
[16:58:51] <learningc> by the way, the samples came from philippines
[16:59:12] <OndraSter> wow
[16:59:34] <OndraSter> do you know where does ADI ship orders? They ship samples from Netherlands, but all the desription on their website says that orders come from the USA
[16:59:45] <OndraSter> that is for Central Europe
[17:00:25] <alexh> ADI stuff comes from philippines generally
[17:01:05] <OndraSter> the thing is - if it is from outside Europe I do not want to pay taxes :X
[17:01:11] <OndraSter> that is 19 + 5% :o)
[17:01:26] <alexh> never had to, they mark it of no commercial value if it's samples
[17:01:35] <OndraSter> samples sure
[17:01:39] <OndraSter> samples come from NL
[17:01:42] <OndraSter> but I ment real orders
[17:01:47] <OndraSter> order worth of $1k5 :)
[17:02:02] <learningc> oh, what did you sample?
[17:02:06] <alexh> never received ADI samples from netherlands
[17:02:13] <alexh> always from philippines
[17:04:02] <Kev> quick questions about samples
[17:04:03] <OndraSter> alexh, and where are you located?
[17:04:14] <alexh> are we talking about the same ADI? Analog Devices?
[17:04:16] <alexh> UK
[17:04:23] <OndraSter> learningc, AD9834 (DDS), two DACs and one opamp
[17:04:26] <OndraSter> hmm I am in CZE
[17:04:28] <OndraSter> yes, Analog Devices
[17:05:04] <Kev> they always ask about the "project" as if it's a major commercial project and no a hobbyist thing
[17:05:06] <Kev> thing *
[17:05:11] <learningc> woa, those avr samples I got are $18 a piece... which makes it $170
[17:05:31] <Kev> any way to get past this without having to lie ?
[17:05:44] <alexh> by telling the truth?
[17:06:10] <OndraSter> hehe
[17:06:22] <OndraSter> my samples from ADI are hopefuly for commercial project
[17:06:28] <Kev> "I'm building a thing for myself and there's nothing in it for you if you give me some free samples" ?
[17:06:43] <alexh> of course there is something in it for them
[17:06:45] <alexh> don't be silly
[17:06:52] <learningc> OndraSter: which part was the most expensive? the ad9834 is only 10 bucks...
[17:07:16] <Kev> also most of them ask for a company name and stuff like that
[17:07:25] <alexh> what's in it for them is that you'll be familiar with devices from that company, and you'll end up preferring them in your professional life aswell
[17:07:29] <Kev> and a corporate email address
[17:07:50] <Kev> yeah well, "i work in it"
[17:08:03] <OndraSter> learningc, actually the AD9834 is only $6.85 if we are talking 100 parts
[17:08:04] <Kev> and by it i mean IT
[17:08:04] <OndraSter> from ADI
[17:08:31] <OndraSter> yeah, the total parts were like $15
[17:08:43] <learningc> OndraSter: you ordered 100 parts of free samples, or was it a paid order?
[17:08:52] <OndraSter> no, I ordered 1 free sample
[17:09:24] <learningc> ah
[17:09:39] <OndraSter> but if I were to do the project commercially, I'd have to buy hundred of them appearantly (because digikey wants like 10 bucks for one and I am not paying that much... and the opamp is on digikey like $5 while on ADI only $1.3
[17:09:54] <OndraSter> if I got enough pre-orders, I would be fully working on it :)
[17:09:59] <OndraSter> but I haven't told the world anywhere yet
[17:10:19] <OndraSter> and there is so much s.it like RoHS, CE....
[17:10:42] <learningc> OndraSter: how did that order worth 1.5K?
[17:11:40] <OndraSter> ?? that was my original thought how much would I have to pay for the first batch of 100 devices :)
[17:11:46] <OndraSter> but that was original, I have changed few parts actually
[17:11:56] <OndraSter> and I was just wondering if anybody knows where they ship from
[17:12:12] <OndraSter> because paying extra 25% or so to the govt as import taxes pure sucks.
[17:13:09] <alexh> well, if you plan on doing some big order, you'd be well advised to ask them instead of asking some random people on IRC
[17:13:15] <OndraSter> yeah
[17:13:17] <OndraSter> I will do that surely
[17:13:22] <OndraSter> but the time is not right yet :)
[17:13:32] <OndraSter> that's why I am asking here and not them yet
[17:13:56] <OndraSter> mostly when you know that your govt steals everything they can for themselves you are not really interested in giving them more money they can steal :(
[17:14:09] <alexh> heh
[17:14:11] <OndraSter> (that belongs to the taxes line)
[17:14:48] <learningc> so guys, any idea of a project I could do with these samples?
[17:15:05] <OndraSter> lol
[17:15:09] <alexh> learningc: you got it kinda the wrong way round. you normally order samples for a project
[17:15:11] <OndraSter> I'd get known with avr32 in the first place
[17:15:36] <learningc> I have worked with atmega 8 before
[17:15:58] <OndraSter> lol
[17:16:02] <OndraSter> quite a difference dude
[17:16:07] <learningc> yeah
[17:16:17] <learningc> I'm giving 32 bits micro a try
[17:16:35] <learningc> maybe driving some lcd panels
[17:17:33] <OndraSter> you can drive pixels with AVR32 almost directly. The power in these micros is great
[17:17:47] <OndraSter> don't these have also ethernet built in, ust as well as USB and USB OTG
[17:17:51] <OndraSter> and another 10000000 peripherals?
[17:18:51] <learningc> I'm not sure, I just sampled the fastest most expensive avr 32 they have
[17:19:05] <alexh> ...
[17:20:41] <OndraSter> lol
[17:21:14] <OndraSter> you need to be taught manners
[17:21:37] <learningc> lol
[17:22:47] <learningc> at least I'm in the club now :)
[17:26:51] <Tom_itx> you know they follow up with a personal visit right?
[17:27:32] <Tom_itx> check on your progress...
[17:31:22] <learningc> cool! last time someone told me he got a young hot lady visiting him! :)
[17:32:21] <OndraSter> yeah that was when he found silicon bug
[17:32:32] <OndraSter> not something you have done :D
[17:32:45] <Tom_itx> my local rep did call me
[17:43:39] <learningc> you ordered samples too?
[17:44:19] <Tom_itx> quite a while back
[17:44:41] <learningc> what did you tell them as excuse?
[17:45:33] <Tom_itx> what i planned to do
[17:47:06] <learningc> Tom_itx: did you do above 2 layers pcbs?
[17:52:05] <Tom_itx> no not yet
[17:53:12] <learningc> do you know if blind vias pcbs are more expensive than through-hole vias pcbs? (I would suppose yes)
[17:54:53] <Tom_itx> of course they are
[17:55:11] <learningc> by a lot?
[17:55:31] <Tom_itx> ask CapnKernel he should know
[17:55:39] <learningc> ok
[17:55:42] <Tom_itx> but 4 is about 2x more than 2
[17:55:55] <Tom_itx> and added in the extra steps for hidden vias i'm sure it is
[17:56:31] <learningc> is it easy to do BGAs with through-hole vias only then?
[17:56:54] <Tom_itx> i haven't done bga yet either
[17:57:04] <Tom_itx> i've tried to avoid it so far
[17:57:39] <learningc> ah ok
[18:01:38] <learningc> CapnKernel: are you there?
[18:09:29] <Tom_itx> what are the free linux cad editors?
[18:13:29] <Tom_itx> WormFood what did you end up using?
[18:20:13] <learningc> Tom_itx: geda
[18:21:06] <Tom_itx> ok
[18:24:47] <nevdull> Tom_itx: you can run Sketchup under wine if you've the interest to, also.
[18:25:26] <Tom_itx> no, somebody was asking about free editors
[18:25:35] <Tom_itx> i mentioned geda to them
[18:25:36] <nevdull> i thought sketchup was free?
[18:25:40] <learningc> isn't kicad for linux too?
[18:25:41] <Tom_itx> but didn't know about others
[18:25:42] <OndraSter> actually, 4 layer boards are way, way more expensive than 2 layers, learningc
[18:25:46] <OndraSter> 4 - 6 times often
[18:26:00] <OndraSter> itead wants $10 for 5x5cm two layers, $65 for 4 layers
[18:26:17] <OndraSter> or $25 for 10x10 2layers or $99 for 10x10 4 layers
[18:26:21] <learningc> OndraSter: but I don't think you can do bgas on 2 layers...
[18:26:24] <OndraSter> not sure if they can do buried vias
[18:26:33] <OndraSter> some BGAs are fine with single layer :)
[18:26:41] <OndraSter> depends on pitch size and the amount of pins
[18:26:52] <nevdull> i use seeedstudio.com. $10 for 10 5cm x 5cm PCBs.
[18:26:56] <learningc> 121 pins at 0.8mm pitch
[18:27:03] <learningc> balls I mean
[18:27:08] <OndraSter> you can route out two "depths" of pins on single layer
[18:27:13] <nevdull> and they have their own CAM and DRE files
[18:27:19] <OndraSter> the problem is, you can barely fit via between .8mm pitch :)
[18:27:40] <OndraSter> nevdull, sure they do, but all itead/seed/... use the same params
[18:27:47] <OndraSter> same fab house
[18:28:10] <nevdull> do they? i noticed seeed and itead had about the same prices, except when you get to 10cm x 10cm and itead gets a better price.
[18:28:31] <nevdull> i get most of m boards in just a couple of weeks.
[18:28:42] <OndraSter> they use the same fab house supposedly
[18:28:49] <OndraSter> even CapnKernel has connection to the same fab house I think
[18:28:52] <OndraSter> or did he have different one..
[18:28:58] <OndraSter> btw, itead now offers ENIG
[18:29:01] <nevdull> its a shame they charge extra for diff colors
[18:29:02] <OndraSter> for +$15
[18:29:06] <OndraSter> no matter what board size I think
[18:29:08] <OndraSter> yep
[18:29:28] <OndraSter> ENIG is quite cool actually, but not worth $15 on boards worth of $20 :)
[18:29:59] <nevdull> i had a problem generating a drill file for seeed once for some reason and they actually took my *.sch and *.brd and personally generated the gerbers and drill file for it.
[18:30:11] <OndraSter> :)
[18:30:14] <OndraSter> did Eagle crash?
[18:30:25] <OndraSter> there was bug in 6.1.0 with, at least itead's, drill file generation
[18:30:27] <OndraSter> it would crash
[18:30:41] <OndraSter> 6.2.0 didn't crash anymore
[18:30:44] <OndraSter> luckily!
[18:30:46] <nevdull> ouch
[18:30:53] <nevdull> did it show up as bad under GerbV?
[18:31:04] <OndraSter> no, the Eagle just crashed in the middle of generating the drill file :)
[18:31:11] <nevdull> evil
[18:31:22] <OndraSter> and by doing each part one by one I figured it is the drill file
[18:31:26] <OndraSter> but oh well, the update was out when I found this bug
[18:31:31] <OndraSter> so I jsut updated :)
[18:31:32] <OndraSter> just*
[18:31:49] <OndraSter> so, I had this great board.... and then I realized I could do better for less money :X
[18:31:56] <OndraSter> so I tore it all apart, changed few parts
[18:31:57] <nevdull> i get a weird issue with eagle 5.8 where it disables all my libraries every few loads.
[18:32:00] <OndraSter> and now I am re-routing it all again!
[18:32:06] <OndraSter> yeah, that is happening to me as well
[18:32:08] <OndraSter> on 6.2.0
[18:32:44] <OndraSter> this was the board...
[18:32:44] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/page/m12051/27857132
[18:32:49] <nevdull> luckily you can just right-click on libraries and choose "use all" but i have different copies of libraries that i disable (ie avr-6, avr-7, avr-4, etc)
[18:32:50] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/page/m12051/27857114
[18:33:36] <OndraSter> that was before I went with xmega256a3u instead xmega32d4+dual DAC (not on this version)+USB-UART (not on this version)
[18:33:38] <OndraSter> :P
[18:33:49] <nevdull> cool image
[18:34:04] <OndraSter> tiger? yep lol
[18:34:16] <Tom_itx> it takes longer to load if you 'use all'
[18:34:16] <nevdull> yah i'm a big fan of the xmega256a3's
[18:34:33] <nevdull> yeah, tom, you're right, and when you're adding a part.
[18:34:35] <OndraSter> nevdull, I found them for $5.10!!!
[18:34:35] <OndraSter> per piece
[18:34:42] <OndraSter> it goes below $5 if you get >$10
[18:34:43] <OndraSter> on mouser
[18:34:44] <OndraSter> err
[18:34:46] <OndraSter> if you get >10
[18:34:58] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, it actually caches.. first time opening takes 2 secs, then it is instant
[18:35:00] <nevdull> holy cow. i found xmega256a3's for about $5.50 at www.arrownac.com
[18:35:08] <OndraSter> this is xmega256a3u
[18:35:11] <OndraSter> with extra USB :)
[18:35:20] <nevdull> host and OTG or?
[18:35:36] <OndraSter> none avr8 has OTG I think
[18:35:39] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, add a new part with one lib open and do the same with them all open
[18:35:39] <OndraSter> or are there any?
[18:35:39] <nevdull> that does compound devices doesn't it?
[18:35:45] <Tom_itx> check your stopwatch
[18:36:08] <OndraSter> nevdull, ?
[18:36:15] <OndraSter> well the USB is just device mode
[18:36:17] <nevdull> i've been using AT90USB162 and atmega32u4's tqfp's that i had laying about
[18:36:18] <OndraSter> no host or OTG
[18:36:41] <nevdull> compound devices (i think that's what they're called) that can register packets with the host controller as multiple devices.
[18:36:44] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, if you do open -> select them all, it takes, okay, maybe 5 secs, then opening "Add" takes the 2 secs the first time
[18:36:59] <learningc> What do I need to program those avr32?
[18:37:00] <OndraSter> nevdull, ohh, like an integrated USB hub for multiple devices... nope, not possible as far as I know
[18:37:09] <OndraSter> learningc, AVR studio, programmer (I'd sugegst AVR Dragon)
[18:37:21] <nevdull> i've been trying to get that to work with a Sparc Keyboard converter that i designed and i need it to register as a keyboard and a mouse.
[18:37:27] <learningc> can I use serial port to program avr32?
[18:37:35] <OndraSter> unless there is bootloader - no
[18:38:11] <learningc> I used to do it with atmega8, was it because it had a bootloader?
[18:38:31] <Casper> or you have a serial port programmer
[18:38:32] <OndraSter> yes
[18:38:38] <OndraSter> Casper, :P
[18:38:46] <OndraSter> how many avr32 serial programmers do you know?
[18:38:59] <Casper> dunnot, I don't do avr32 yet
[18:39:25] <OndraSter> like I said, I'd go for AVR Dragon, it is cheap and supports all of the AVR architecture based chips except few rare attiny's
[18:39:39] <nevdull> yah, i have a silicon labs CP2110EK single chip HID USB to USART bridge for computer -> usb -> rs232 -> DB9 -> max232 -> atmega
[18:39:53] <OndraSter> holy cow
[18:39:55] <nevdull> if you go with the dragon, be sure to check out the Dragon Rider from ECROS Tech
[18:40:08] <Tom_itx> iirc avr32 is jtag programming
[18:40:14] <learningc> OndraSter: but that atmega8 was programmed from pony prog I think. Not sure if a boot loader was involved
[18:40:16] <Tom_itx> don't quote me though
[18:40:25] <nevdull> don't they do TMI?
[18:40:56] <OndraSter> learningc, isn't pony prog parallel?
[18:41:00] <OndraSter> LPT
[18:41:16] <nevdull> the AVR ISP mkII is so cheap these days tho...
[18:41:28] <OndraSter> but AVR ISP doesn't do JTAG programming... or does it?
[18:41:35] <Tom_itx> no
[18:41:42] <nevdull> and you can get the newer JTAG ICE II china clone from ebay or that other site
[18:41:48] <OndraSter> $80
[18:41:54] <OndraSter> I'd rather get AVR Dragon for $50 :)
[18:41:56] <OndraSter> original even
[18:42:11] <OndraSter> it is a lil' slower but it is original
[18:42:14] <learningc> OndraSter: I don't remember which programmer software honestly but we did a serial port conveter with diode and transistor
[18:42:19] <OndraSter> dude, they just sent you worth of a lot parts
[18:42:20] <nevdull> be sure to check out:
http://www.ecrostech.com/AtmelAvr/DragonRider/index.htm
[18:42:41] <OndraSter> so buy from them something and don't be cheap student :)
[18:43:16] <learningc> who?
[18:43:22] <OndraSter> you
[18:43:34] <learningc> I'm not student anymore
[18:43:40] <OndraSter> worse then! :P
[18:43:45] <nevdull> the dragon rider will provide 8- 20- 28- and 40- pin sockets with STK500 headers, and jumpers to route ISP and JTAG
[18:44:01] <nevdull> without having to buy a bunch of adapter boards from atmel
[18:44:04] <OndraSter> nevdull, if he has it for 100pin or 64pin or how much TQFP...
[18:44:10] <nevdull> oh
[18:44:12] <nevdull> bugger
[18:44:26] <nevdull> i don't think they have any tqfp breakout boards supporting it :(
[18:44:33] <learningc> where can I get an avr dragon?
[18:44:42] <OndraSter> mouser, digikey, farnell
[18:44:46] <OndraSter> even the atmel eshop itself
[18:44:56] <OndraSter> btw, is it just me or are MLFs sexy?
[18:45:01] <learningc> ah ok, gonna check it, thanks
[18:45:04] <OndraSter> MLF/QFN chips
[18:45:06] <OndraSter> np
[18:45:14] <OndraSter> $52 mouser last time I checked
[18:45:17] <learningc> I like bgas better
[18:45:17] <OndraSter> or was it 52€?
[18:45:25] <OndraSter> but BGAs are pain to home DIY
[18:45:31] <OndraSter> MLFs are not that problematic
[18:45:37] <learningc> mlf?
[18:45:42] <OndraSter> QFN
[18:45:44] <Tom_itx> no leads
[18:45:45] <nevdull> if it's an xmega, i designed and built a cheap ghetto programming board. it's on avrfreaks and instructables here:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-an-AVR-Xmega-Prototyping-Board/
[18:45:48] <Tom_itx> just pads
[18:45:58] <learningc> mlf = qfn?
[18:45:59] <nevdull> qfn makes my teeth hurt
[18:46:03] <nevdull> so do TSSOP
[18:46:14] <Tom_itx> tssop are for pussies
[18:46:19] <Tom_itx> :D
[18:46:28] <learningc> no, tssops are good
[18:46:28] <OndraSter> :D
[18:46:38] <learningc> I use tssop
[18:46:44] <nevdull> i haven't been able to go past tqfp-64 nor below VQFN-20
[18:46:47] <Tom_itx> well i do too
[18:46:53] <OndraSter> nevdull, your breakout has one major problem... anything hi-speed will have serious issues :)
[18:46:54] <nevdull> i have had no luck with tssop
[18:47:13] <OndraSter> like USB, ethernet..
[18:47:14] <learningc> nevdull: pitch 0.5?
[18:47:15] <nevdull> ondraster: how high a speed?
[18:47:26] <OndraSter> err xmegas... okay, just eth
[18:47:29] <OndraSter> but he has avr32
[18:47:34] <nevdull> ah gotcha
[18:47:36] <OndraSter> which is absolutely different class
[18:47:39] <nevdull> totally
[18:47:49] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32_sd_1.jpg
[18:47:56] <Tom_itx> that's all hand soldered
[18:48:01] <nevdull> i use STR9
[18:48:12] <nevdull> or ST32
[18:48:15] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, is it 0402 part?
[18:48:31] <learningc> Tom_itx: seriously....
[18:48:31] <Tom_itx> no but i've done those too
[18:48:39] <learningc> that's a great job!
[18:48:40] <nevdull> what exactly is the use of the avr32 in between the xmegas and the arms?
[18:48:40] <OndraSter> because it looks fairly small
[18:48:43] <OndraSter> compared to the chip
[18:48:51] <Tom_itx> the crystal was fun
[18:49:00] <OndraSter> when I placed 0603 next to 64pin xmega QFN
[18:49:05] <OndraSter> it took half of the chip's size
[18:49:32] <nevdull> ouch. i like to stick with 0805
[18:49:36] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, solder paste + hotair :)
[18:49:49] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, i have a toaster oven
[18:49:51] <nevdull> solder paste and an oven
[18:49:53] <OndraSter> or that
[18:49:54] <Tom_itx> but i did all those by hand
[18:50:00] <OndraSter> yeah
[18:50:03] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega128_exp_1.jpg
[18:50:06] <Tom_itx> another one
[18:50:11] <nevdull> did you use much solder wick? ;)
[18:50:15] <Tom_itx> no
[18:50:27] <nevdull> you are a magical elf
[18:50:28] <OndraSter> that is .8mm pitch
[18:50:35] <learningc> Tom_itx: the smds caps, resis, are 0603?
[18:50:37] <Casper> hmmm
[18:50:40] <OndraSter> I've done that few times
[18:50:43] <Tom_itx> i think so
[18:50:47] <Casper> my subwoofer is starting to smell hmmm.....
[18:50:48] <OndraSter> I've done even FTDI FT232 with .65mm pitch
[18:50:52] <OndraSter> the rest was hotair
[18:51:11] <learningc> Tom_itx: you used a solder iron to do it?
[18:51:21] <Tom_itx> yes
[18:51:52] <Tom_itx> not that hard, but still one of my favorites:
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI1.jpg
[18:51:53] <learningc> that's really a great job
[18:52:04] <Tom_itx> that's at tiny10
[18:52:08] <learningc> how did you control the amount of solder?
[18:52:10] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, don't you wish you could buy cheap pick'n'place machine with auto paste dispenser etc? :P
[18:52:22] <Tom_itx> sometimes, yes
[18:52:37] <Tom_itx> learningc, for one i don't use much
[18:52:40] <OndraSter> okay, my next job will be "hobbyist PnP machine"
[18:52:44] <OndraSter> hopefuly :D
[18:52:50] <Tom_itx> and i also have a spool of .015" solder
[18:53:05] <learningc> Tom_itx: ah, that's the trick
[18:53:06] <nevdull> there much flux with that?
[18:53:06] <OndraSter> I am using half mm solder
[18:53:19] <Tom_itx> and plenty of flux
[18:53:20] <OndraSter> it is some made in germany
[18:53:22] <OndraSter> perfect one
[18:53:29] <Tom_itx> it still shouldn't matter
[18:53:48] <learningc> Tom_itx: and how did you solder that tqfp?
[18:53:58] <Tom_itx> all by hand
[18:54:09] <Tom_itx> and the first 100 or more programmers i sent out were done by hand
[18:54:18] <learningc> drag soldering? or clean up with wick?
[18:54:29] <OndraSter> drag soldering + wick :P
[18:54:29] <Tom_itx> drag i guess
[18:54:34] <Tom_itx> not much wick
[18:54:43] <learningc> ah ok
[18:54:52] <OndraSter> I always say "damn, missing a lil' of solder"
[18:54:57] <learningc> Tom_itx: your programmer is for avr32 also?
[18:55:00] <OndraSter> and it creates a bridge :(
[18:55:11] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/scope2.jpg
[18:55:13] <Tom_itx> that helps
[18:55:17] <Tom_itx> see the solder there?
[18:55:25] <Tom_itx> forgot that was in there
[18:55:49] <learningc> dang, you've got a nice microscope!
[18:56:53] <learningc> are you using leaded solder or lead-free?
[18:56:59] <Tom_itx> lead
[18:57:19] <dirty_d> your desk is much neater than mine
[18:57:27] <OndraSter> your desk is much cleaner than mine
[18:57:29] <OndraSter> :D
[18:57:39] <Tom_itx> i have to clear it off to work
[18:57:43] <learningc> mine is a chaos :)
[18:57:44] <OndraSter> and I have two and a half desks :(
[18:58:02] <Tom_itx> try 4 kbds and 3 monitors on one
[18:58:08] <Tom_itx> and still have room to work
[18:58:08] <OndraSter> lol
[18:58:08] <dirty_d> i have one, very very cluttered desk
[18:58:10] <learningc> It would be a shame to show it off here
[18:58:14] <OndraSter> 4 kbds and 3 monitors?
[18:58:20] <OndraSter> shouldn't it be.. in reverse?
[18:58:42] <Tom_itx> one pc doesn't get alot of use
[18:58:50] <Tom_itx> oh, my server has neither on it :D
[18:58:57] <OndraSter> :D
[18:59:08] <learningc> Tom_itx: what's your microscope brand and model?
[18:59:17] <learningc> and how much you bought it?
[18:59:27] <OndraSter> my server has actually keyboard because the battery run out,... so when I accidentaly pull the plug (I always keep running out of empty plugs so I try what can be disconnected) it resets the settings
[18:59:30] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32u4_1.jpg
[18:59:39] <Tom_itx> qfn
[19:00:35] <dirty_d> i soldeed one of those like 6 times till i was happy
[19:00:39] <dirty_d> and i still wasnt hapy
[19:00:42] <Tom_itx> http://store.amscope.com/sm-3b.html
[19:00:43] <Grievre> bit-banging MIDI shouldn't be too hard should it?
[19:00:47] <Tom_itx> similar to those
[19:01:02] <learningc> Tom_itx: how did you solder that crystal?
[19:01:12] <Tom_itx> carefully
[19:01:21] <learningc> Tom_itx: thanks for the link
[19:01:24] <OndraSter> Grievre, if you read enough docs on it, nope, it should be easy
[19:01:31] <Tom_itx> i got it off ebay but that's the brand
[19:02:12] <learningc> Tom_itx: but how did you heat the pad when the crystal was right on it?
[19:02:27] <Tom_itx> from the corners very carefully
[19:02:40] <Tom_itx> plenty of flux
[19:03:31] <Tom_itx> the 7 x 45 is about right for electronics
[19:03:39] <Tom_itx> but you do want a zoom
[19:04:37] <learningc> Tom_itx: how much you bought it on ebay?
[19:05:13] <Tom_itx> 3 something
[19:05:34] <Tom_itx> about the same as their site
[19:06:21] <OndraSter> threefifty
[19:06:23] <learningc> I'm considering one of those usb microscope. Are they good enough?
[19:06:55] <Tom_itx> if you can get the hand eye coordination down i suppose
[19:07:15] <Tom_itx> looking over there ---> while you're soldering <--- over here
[19:08:00] <Tom_itx> i didn't go that route
[19:08:19] <learningc> I was more like thinking there could be issue with the distance between the microscope lens and the pcb
[19:08:33] <Tom_itx> it's about right really
[19:08:36] <Tom_itx> on this one
[19:09:07] <learningc> yeah, I could see it leaves you a lot of space for your hand to work on the pcb
[19:09:37] <learningc> or the soldering pen
[19:11:07] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7X-45X-BINOCULAR-STEREO-ZOOM-MICROSCOPE-3D-BOOM-STAND-/350139517905?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5185f10bd1
[19:11:09] <Tom_itx> similar
[19:11:16] <Tom_itx> you can probably find it cheaper
[19:14:19] <OndraSter> 0203 in the night, time to sleep
[19:14:21] <OndraSter> gn
[19:59:05] <CapnKernel> OndraSter: Seeed, Itead and myself all use different fab houses. There's nothing in common. In fact, Seeed and Itead's fab houses are in different cities.
[19:59:58] <CapnKernel> Ahh, now he is known as OS|bedding :-)
[20:28:11] <learningc> CapnKernel: how much does it cost more to do blind vias and buried vias?
[20:29:08] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel i thought you said they were the same
[20:30:06] <CapnKernel> There are many dozens of PCB companies in Shenzhen, if not hundreds. Touts hand out cards on the street.
[20:30:46] <CapnKernel> learningc: If you're doing multi-layer boards, it's assumed you're doing blind and buried vias, so it costs no more than a multi-layer board that doesn't have them.
[20:31:13] <learningc> ah, very cool!
[20:31:37] <learningc> CapnKernel: are you back to china?
[20:32:15] <CapnKernel> I'm in Melbourne at the moment. I'll be back there at the end of this month.
[20:32:37] <learningc> cool!
[20:53:05] <WormFood> [07:03:16] <Tom_itx> WormFood what did you end up using? <-- I started using eagle, but when I tried to load the components I wanted to use, I couldn't get it to work, so I said "fuck it! no more time investment for eagle", and switched kicad....I was serious when I said I wouldn't invest too much time into eagle. I think kicad was a good choice.
[20:54:08] <Tom_itx> someone was looking for a linux alternate
[20:54:16] <Tom_itx> did you try geda?
[20:54:43] <WormFood> no I didn't
[20:54:51] <Tom_itx> ok
[20:55:22] <WormFood> this morning I'm eating a bee's nest
[20:55:34] <WormFood> or that is what they call it...a bee nest cake
[20:56:40] <WormFood> it is a piece of sweet bread, about the size of my fist. They slice it in half, and put the bottom half on the top half, so the inside is pointing up....and it does resemble a bee's nest
[20:57:09] <Tom_itx> sounds yummy
[20:57:24] <CapnKernel> WormFood: Where did you get it?
[20:57:49] <WormFood> CapnKernel, I got this one at the bread store down the street, but I usually get them at the super market around the corner
[20:58:43] <WormFood> and I got some cheese yesterday, that is incredible....you can't melt it....I put it in the pan at 270 C, and it won't melt...it gets soft, and turns brown....but will not run like normal cheese
[20:58:56] <CapnKernel> That's cheese?
[20:59:07] <WormFood> you've never seen unmeltable cheese?
[20:59:10] <CapnKernel> (I'm nibbling at a block of tasty right now - ner ner ner)
