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[00:16:48] <Essobi> Derp.
[00:46:46] <inflex> ugh, better go do some more electronics
[00:46:49] <inflex> 30 more BACs to make :(
[00:46:54] <inflex> what a boring process.
[00:49:40] <learningc> bac?
[01:54:53] <inflex> learningc: just a device that I manufacture for the R/C community
[02:05:08] <Essobi> what's it do?
[02:05:46] <Essobi> I used to be into RC a lot..
[02:05:54] <Essobi> Mmm.. Got my old 4x4 around here somehwere..
[02:07:39] <Essobi> Ah yes...Kyosho.
[02:10:14] <Essobi> *sigh* I should get one of the local hackerspaces to print me a new body.
[02:13:23] <Casper> afaik, there is no hackerspace around here :(
[02:45:13] <Essobi> Casper: my local one does crazy shit..
[02:48:10] <learningc> like?
[02:50:01] <Essobi> learningc:
http://whitestarballoon.com/
[02:58:04] <lokx> I am using an AVR Dragon with AVR Studio 5.1 and am having issues programing an Mega328p. For some reason target voltage keeps going down even though I have a 5v supply on my breadboard
[02:58:44] <Casper> then your 5V supply isn'T good
[02:58:56] <lokx> When I close the AVR Programming dialogue and reopen it shows target vvoltage of 4.7 then goes down again
[02:59:11] <Casper> then you do not have a proper supply
[02:59:12] <lokx> I am testing it with a multimeter and it is fine
[02:59:44] <lokx> I tried an 7805 regulator circuit and then the 5v out from an arduino
[03:00:41] <Casper> what power the 7805?
[03:00:45] <lokx> 9v
[03:00:55] <lokx> It looks like it is actually good now that I am using 5v from Arduino
[03:01:15] <lokx> Yea it is reading fine now
[03:02:35] <Casper> 9V battery?
[03:02:41] <Casper> are you sure that the battery is good?
[03:02:57] <lokx> I replaced the battery with the 5v rail from an Arduino
[03:03:00] <lokx> and it is working fine now
[03:03:09] <lokx> Maybe the battery was on the low side
[03:03:25] <Casper> battery are untrustable
[03:03:31] <Casper> specially 9V one
[03:03:41] <Casper> it's sub AAA battery inside
[03:03:45] <lokx> Gotcha - good to know
[03:03:53] <lokx> this is my first time messing with an actual programmer
[03:04:11] <Casper> a battery is anything from 0 to higher than the rated voltage
[03:04:28] <lokx> I am reading a tut on AVRStudio 5.1 and they write and build the program in AVR Studio but then burn it to the MCU with avrdude
[03:04:29] <Casper> ex: alkaline is about 1.65V when brand new, some even go as high as 1.7V
[03:04:36] <Casper> they are considered drained at 1V
[03:04:41] <lokx> does avr studio not have a burning capability
[03:04:48] <Casper> but often used bellow that point
[03:05:04] <Casper> not sure, I don't use that thing
[03:05:09] <lokx> Dammit it is doing it again
[03:05:38] <lokx> Anytime it tries to enter programming mode it says it can't enter programming mode
[03:05:45] <lokx> then suddenly says voltage is too low
[03:06:18] <Casper> your batt is probably bellow 7V while under load
[03:06:23] <Casper> hint: don't use battery
[03:06:49] <lokx> Like I said earlier
[03:06:53] <lokx> I am no longer using a battery
[03:07:09] <lokx> I am powering it from an Arduino plugged into USB from it's 5v rail
[03:07:57] <lokx> Looks like I may have had ISP backwards .... man I should probably not be drinking and MCU hacking
[03:10:23] <lokx> Looks like I got it!
[03:10:36] <lokx> I figured out how to burn the ELF also
[03:11:01] <Essobi> lokx: :D
[03:11:07] <Essobi> lokx: DAPA?
[03:11:08] <lokx> I am super excited haha
[03:11:14] <lokx> DAPA?
[03:11:36] <Essobi> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Avr-Microcontrollers-in-Linux-Howto/x207.html
[03:12:12] <lokx> Awesome link. I was reading off another one but this one looks great,
[03:13:05] <lokx> Next step is to make a programming socket so I don't have to redo these wires
[03:13:12] <lokx> I need a nice ziff and some headers
[03:18:19] <Essobi> Ah, well, I just made an ICSP 2x3 socket between the parallel and the board.
[03:19:09] <Essobi> I'm going to be doing some weird shit thou with mine.. I need to get a scope or a logic analyzer I suspect to troubleshoot all of this..
[03:28:49] <lokx> Can someone explain setting FCPU through a define
[03:29:24] <lokx> I am confused as to what it represents
[03:34:35] <bram1> lokx: It gives information about the clock speed. You can use it to make a generic delay routine like in <avr/delay.h>
[03:36:14] <lokx> Okay so if I have an external 16MHz resonator what does FCPU need to be?
[03:36:42] <lokx> Also, I noticed there is a SUT_CKSEL fuse - not sure if I need to change what it is
[03:37:21] <bram1> then you set FCPU to be 16000000UL
[03:37:54] <bram1> check
http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc and the datasheet for fuse settings
[03:38:42] <lokx> Okay I have been looking at that link
[03:39:05] <lokx> On the features I don't see a 16MHz external clock
[03:39:08] <lokx> only 8
[03:42:26] <Essobi> that cals and wormfood's are invaluable
[03:42:30] <Essobi> *calc
[03:43:04] <WormFood> :D
[03:44:44] <lokx> How do I set 16MHz in the fuse bits for SUT_CKSEL
[03:45:39] <OndraSter> is it external crystal, RC osc or square source?
[03:46:25] <lokx> It is a 16MHz resonator
[03:48:06] * Essobi high-fives WormFood.
[03:48:21] <OndraSter> lokx, there are online calculators for it
[03:48:24] <OndraSter> for the fuse bits
[03:48:40] <OndraSter> on question "HOW" I can say "through ISP programmer"
[03:48:46] <lokx> I am on one right now and having trouble unerstanding
[03:48:53] <Essobi> I'm poking around on this ARM920T... going to setup some TTL serial on it, and try to make a I2C bus between it and some 328ps..
[03:48:56] <lokx> understanding the calculator
[03:49:17] <bram1> check page 29 of
http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc8161.pdf
[03:50:07] <bram1> i think you need: "Ceramic resonator, slowly rising power"
[03:50:18] <Essobi> Herp da derp. :D
[03:50:54] <bram1> for CKSEL0 / SUT1..0
[03:51:06] <bram1> and for CKSEL3..1 you need 8.0 - 16.0
[03:53:42] <bram1> in calculator terms this is: Ext. Crystal Osc: Frequency 8.0-MHz; Start-up time PWRDWN/RESET: 258 CK/14 CK + 65 ms; [CKSEL=1110 SUT=01]
[04:00:14] <lokx> Thank you!
[04:00:27] <lokx> I am reading the section in the datasheet about clock sources
[04:00:31] <lokx> next quick question
[04:01:09] <lokx> I have a simple program that sets all of Port B to output then sets all of port b HIGH
[04:01:27] <lokx> It doesn't look like any of the pins are high
[04:01:39] <lokx> so I am not sure if the code got to the avr correctly
[04:01:55] <lokx> Here is the code
[04:01:56] <lokx> http://pastebin.com/4ubJDxnV
[04:02:43] <bram1> before the "return 0", add for(;;);
[04:02:53] <bram1> add for(; ; );
[04:03:15] <lokx> Is that because the program is writing high and then ending
[04:03:19] <lokx> so I don't see it
[04:03:26] <bram1> i think so
[04:04:04] <lokx> After I program should I have to reset the AVR?
[04:04:48] <bram1> the avr is in reset while programming, so usually not
[04:05:04] <lokx> Nice the for loop fixed it
[04:05:13] <lokx> So basically program execution happened too fast
[04:05:20] <lokx> and I wasn't able to see the change of state
[04:05:26] <lokx> cool
[04:05:54] <bram1> the pins were high for 4/16.000.000th of a second
[04:06:02] <bram1> more or less
[04:06:10] <lokx> This is great man
[04:07:21] <lokx> Can the ISP on the Dragon not do live debugging?
[04:07:26] <OndraSter> ISP? no
[04:07:27] <OndraSter> JTAG? yes
[04:07:32] <OndraSter> what device do you have?
[04:07:38] <lokx> atmega328p
[04:07:44] <lokx> darn
[04:07:45] <OndraSter> don't they have debugWire?
[04:07:47] <OndraSter> :)
[04:07:53] <OndraSter> go to FUSE settings and enable dW
[04:07:56] <lokx> You got me. But I shall google it
[04:08:02] <OndraSter> and then switch to dW in the AVR Studio as well
[04:08:07] <OndraSter> and boom, you have debug
[04:08:14] <OndraSter> the cable is connected to the same pins even
[04:08:35] <OndraSter> Dragon can do all - ISP, JTAG, dW, HVPP, HVSP
[04:09:26] <lokx> Where do I change dW in AVR Studio? I already changed the fuse settings
[04:10:01] <OndraSter> there should be on the top above the code window your device and your emulator/programmer
[04:10:13] <OndraSter> and if you click on the programmer, it should take you to the project settings
[04:10:24] <OndraSter> where you can change also "protocol" to dW
[04:10:31] <lokx> Ah
[04:10:35] <lokx> It was under "Interface"
[04:10:37] <OndraSter> I have never used dW, so I am not sure there
[04:10:44] <OndraSter> ah
[04:11:31] <lokx> Wow this live debugging is awesome
[04:11:58] <OndraSter> :)
[04:12:09] <lokx> Registers are weird and are in R00-RXX instead of like PORTD,PORTC,etc
[04:16:58] <OndraSter> lokx, those are working registers
[04:17:13] <OndraSter> if you switch to CPU view
[04:17:24] <OndraSter> you have the peripheral registers
[04:19:08] <lokx> I got cha
[04:19:17] <lokx> I just have to learn where everything is in this software
[04:20:11] <OndraSter> :)
[04:22:20] <lokx> Well thank you everyone for your help!
[04:22:30] <lokx> I am off to bed
[04:22:45] <lokx> So I can wake up early and make a led blink with some buttons haha
[04:38:17] <Essobi> *yawn* messing with redboot on 200mhz gear is slooooow
[04:50:16] <specing> Essobi: AT91SAM926?
[05:36:06] <abcminiuser> exDM69, thanks for the email!
[05:36:30] <abcminiuser> Have you confirmed that the issue disappears if only that value is changed on the latest trunk?
[06:09:23] <OndraSter> huah, hasn't FT232 prices gone way up?
[06:09:28] <OndraSter> we are talking $5 - $6
[06:09:39] <OndraSter> CP2104 from Silicon Labs is $2.12
[06:09:42] <OndraSter> 1pcs
[06:09:48] <OndraSter> which is fairly decent
[06:11:49] <OndraSter> screw it, who needs UART anyway :P
[06:14:49] <specing> me
[06:26:32] <seba-> i have an atmega324a running on a 8MHz crystal
[06:26:39] <Kev> hello
[06:26:40] <seba-> without a bootloader
[06:26:44] <seba-> how do i put it on?
[06:26:57] <seba-> i can program it successfully via ISP
[06:27:04] <seba-> serial works without problem
[06:27:12] <seba-> i just want to program it via serial port
[06:27:12] <OndraSter> you programm the bootloader via ISP
[06:27:15] <OndraSter> and then change fuses
[06:27:15] <specing> well then, upload it
[06:27:26] <seba-> yes, sure, but it doesn't work
[06:27:30] <seba-> i don't know what i'm doing wrong
[06:27:35] <OndraSter> neither do we
[06:27:48] <seba-> can somebody guide me through the process?
[06:27:56] <OndraSter> flash the bootloader made for your device
[06:28:03] <specing> We just did
[06:28:13] <Kev> I have this issue with _delay_us()
[06:28:14] <OndraSter> set the fuses.
[06:28:23] <Kev> i need a 10us delay
[06:28:29] <Kev> so i use _delay_us(10)
[06:28:41] <Kev> but I get a 20us delay :/
[06:28:44] <seba-> fuses are set, if i put the bootloader on, the led flashes 3 times but i can't upload anything to it
[06:28:56] <Kev> so i use _delay_us(5) and i get a 10us delay
[06:29:03] <Kev> any idea where this comes from ?
[06:29:12] <specing> Kev: what is your crystal?
[06:29:12] <seba-> Kev, F_CPU wrong setting?
[06:29:19] <specing> and that
[06:29:36] <Kev> optimizations are set (-Os), F_CPU is ok, fuses are ok for the xtal
[06:31:17] <seba-> OndraSter, specing: well i've modified optiboot bootloader for atmega324a, i don't know if i did it alright... that could be the source of the problem
[06:33:42] <Kev> I get the expected result when I set #define F_CPU 5500000UL
[06:33:45] <specing> seba-: does the unmodified one work?
[06:33:47] <Kev> but i have a 12mhz xtal
[06:35:35] <seba-> specing, i haven't really tried, well i've just modified optiboot.c and Makefile and copied the atmega328 definition and changed what it needed to be changed, like fuses, frequency, name, led pin position... not really much
[06:37:25] <grummund> Kev: which gcc optimisation option have you set?
[06:37:37] <Steffanx> "optimizations are set (-Os)"
[06:38:14] * grummund goes back to sleep
[06:38:21] <Steffanx> Sleep well
[06:38:27] <grummund> Zzzz
[06:52:50] <Kev> maybe there's something wrong with my logic analyzer
[06:52:59] <Kev> i'm going to check with an actual scope
[06:55:48] <Kev> well, nope :/
[06:56:16] <specing> check the crystal with the scope wile you are at it
[07:01:01] <Kev> 12mhz
[07:05:46] <Kev> weird thing, I tried a while(1){PIND=0;PIND=1;}
[07:06:04] <Kev> I get 1.5mhz
[07:06:33] <Kev> but i checked the /8 fuse
[07:09:34] <abcminiuser> Tom_L, FUUUUU
[07:16:22] <Kev> this is getting even weirder...............
[07:16:25] <Kev> http://i.imgur.com/2j5ZV.png
[07:16:45] <Kev> while(1){PIND=0;_delay_us(5);PIND=1;}
[07:18:31] <Kev> for some unknown reason the duty cycle is 50%
[07:18:45] <OndraSter> optimalizations?
[07:18:47] <Kev> but it does not make any sense with the code
[07:18:53] <Kev> -Os
[07:19:37] <abcminiuser> Kev sure it does
[07:20:00] <abcminiuser> Writing 0 to pin register does nothing, writing a 1 to it will toggle the pin if it's an output
[07:20:07] <abcminiuser> Hint: use PORTD, not PIND
[07:20:19] <OndraSter> ;D
[07:20:27] <OndraSter> I didn't realize that myself
[07:21:15] <OndraSter> abcminiuser, kudos to xmega developers for adding DIRCLR/DIRSET, OUTCLR/OUTSET etc registers =)
[07:21:16] <Kev> eeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[07:21:26] <Kev> abcminiuser thanks
[07:21:41] <Kev> geez what a stupid mistake
[07:21:46] <abcminiuser> OndraSter, indeed, they're magical - atomic bit alterations are awesome
[07:21:55] <abcminiuser> Kev, that'll be $20 for official Atmel support
[07:22:21] <OndraSter> I don't have to care about what was the previous state of some pin, I just drive it to 0 or 1 through writing one register, rather RCW =)
[07:23:46] <Kev> suddently _delay_us works as expected :D thanks again abcminiuser
[07:24:21] <abcminiuser> OndraSter, I know, and PORTx.OUT and PORTx.IN means issues like kev's are less likely to occur
[07:24:27] <abcminiuser> Kev, no problem :)
[07:29:09] <OndraSter> yep abcminiuser
[07:29:31] <OndraSter> when I found out that xmega32d4 costs only 0.05€ more than mega328... it was easy to figure out which one to pick :D
[07:29:38] <OndraSter> and yes, I read the long errata for the D4
[07:30:25] <abcminiuser> Minus the errata for old XMEGAs, they're excellent chips
[07:30:29] <abcminiuser> Miles ahead of the MEGAs
[07:30:44] <OndraSter> yep
[07:30:45] <abcminiuser> Most of the really bad errata is gone in the new chips
[07:30:54] <abcminiuser> B and C series are looking good, as are the AU
[07:30:56] <OndraSter> they have only rev A and B in the datasheet I read
[07:31:05] <abcminiuser> A series and old D are a bit wonky
[07:33:42] <OndraSter> huh, the board looks HUGE on my LCD when working on it, but when I print it on the paper to see real dimensions (whether connectors fit), it is in relity so small... :o)
[07:33:45] <OndraSter> 75x100mm
[07:34:09] <OndraSter> 76x100 :)
[07:35:44] <OndraSter> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3936936/brd.png
[07:41:12] <specing> OndraSter: Why do you have a tiger on the silkscreen?
[07:41:19] <OndraSter> why not? :)
[07:41:49] <OndraSter> I might flip it actually
[07:42:51] <OndraSter> still >month before the board will be ordered :)
[08:11:12] <seba-> http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,103623.0.html
[08:11:15] <seba-> any clues
[09:12:03] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, how's it goin?
[09:12:18] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, good, false alarm before
[09:12:20] <abcminiuser> Bad driver
[09:14:00] <Tom_itx> ?
[09:14:39] <Tom_itx> i've noticed you have been quieter here since you started answering tech 'for real'
[09:34:03] <seba-> OndraSter, i've solved it
http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,103623.0.html
[09:34:04] <seba-> :>
[09:35:23] <amee2k> hmm... i think i have a terminology problem. If you have a "dual power supply" with common ground and two or more rails, say -5V and +5V
[09:35:52] <amee2k> how do you disginguish this kind of dual supply from one that has two independent 5V outputs that are floating with respect to each other??
[09:36:27] <mrfrenzy> tracking? common ground?
[09:36:32] <Tom_itx> i would think the outputs would vary on the floating supplies
[09:36:53] <amee2k> i mean terminology wise
[09:36:54] <mrfrenzy> yeah, floating ground vs common ground
[09:37:05] <amee2k> hmm okay
[09:37:18] <amee2k> because both of them seem to be commonly called "dual supplies"
[09:37:31] <mrfrenzy> well they both are ;)
[09:38:40] <amee2k> would it be adequate to call a gound output with one or more "rails" referenced to it a "channel" ?
[09:38:52] <Tom_itx> no
[09:39:13] <amee2k> how do you distinguish groups of rails that share a single ground then?
[09:39:25] <amee2k> from rails that are technically independent supplies
[09:40:07] <amee2k> are "rail" and "channel" synonymous then?
[09:40:12] * amee2k scratches head
[09:40:20] <Tom_itx> i don't think so
[09:40:31] <Tom_itx> you think of a channel as being a signal
[09:40:35] <amee2k> how do you differentiate the two then?
[09:43:14] <Tom_itx> one might be a single supply and the other a split supply
[09:43:42] <Tom_itx> but the split supply could still be 2 positive or one of each or more
[09:43:49] <amee2k> how do you define "split supply"?
[09:43:59] <Tom_itx> more than one output
[09:44:28] <amee2k> so a split supply with two outputs would be equivalent to dual supply?
[09:44:37] <Tom_itx> yes
[09:44:43] <amee2k> hmm i see
[09:45:34] <Tom_itx> although 'split' infers one common source
[09:46:33] <Tom_itx> for example, a transformer with multiple secondaries
[09:47:15] <amee2k> so a split supply would be a supply with multiple outputs and a common node (i.e. common ground)?
[09:49:48] <amee2k> would it be inadequate to call the outputs on a split ground supply "rails"?
[09:49:51] <Tom_itx> i think so
[09:50:14] <amee2k> so you'd just call these "outputs"?
[09:50:25] <amee2k> thats what i was about to call "channels" earlier
[09:50:38] <Tom_itx> i think the 'rails' term came to be either from the hot 'rail' on electric trains or the 'buss bars' inside electical pannels
[09:50:41] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure which
[10:02:47] <amee2k> hmm ok, i think i got it down right now
[10:02:51] <amee2k> Tom_itx: thanks a lot :)
[10:19:20] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, yes I have, I'm usually completely buggered after work
[10:19:41] <abcminiuser> And on weekends I feel like I SHOULD be working on LUFA et al, but can't get the energy then either
[10:19:43] <abcminiuser> :P
[10:24:15] <haksaw> Anyone around that wants to try to figure out whats going on with my simple 100 line program?
[10:24:48] <specing> Yes, you
[10:25:02] <haksaw> haha
[10:25:03] <specing> 100 lines != simple
[10:25:18] <specing> unless you have 50 lines of comments
[10:26:03] <haksaw> well there is alot of whitespace :P
[10:26:59] <exDM69> abcminiuser: yes, I have successfully used the Joystick demo from LUFA trunk. I needed to increase the polling interval, nothing else to make it work
[10:27:32] <exDM69> I did have another issue, though. But I think that was just me being sloppy
[10:28:21] <haksaw> http://pastebin.com/U7YmL6jF
[10:28:56] <haksaw> ^^ if anyone wants to take a hack at it. When i uncomment out ADCtrimL and ADCtrimH it doesnt work.
[10:31:59] <specing> ugh your coding style..
[10:32:26] <haksaw> what?
[10:32:56] <haksaw> i think its purdy
[10:34:43] <specing> ah I see why it doesen't work
[10:34:56] <specing> ADMUX|=ch;
[10:35:16] <specing> what happens if admux is on some other channel and you OR that with 0?
[10:37:33] <haksaw> yup, that would an issue
[10:38:48] <abcminiuser> exDM69, excellent I'll investigate further
[10:38:50] <specing> haksaw: you'll gradually learn to write 100% correct code 100% of the time
[10:39:10] <abcminiuser> No idea why that would affect it however, PC should just ignore NAKed frames so a too-short polling interval should just waste bus bandwidth
[10:39:31] <haksaw> specing: isnt that a myth?
[10:39:59] <specing> Its true here
[10:40:25] <haksaw> specing: haha, so what debugger do you use :P
[10:40:32] <specing> my brain
[10:42:46] <haksaw> specing: yay, it works. Thanks!
[10:44:26] <dofidum> haksaw, no one writes 100% code... perhaps your programs aren't complex enough!
[10:44:41] <dofidum> *correct
[10:45:26] <specing> complexity is a result of bad programming
[10:46:15] <dofidum> specing, sure, to some degree... some functionality is inherently complex though
[10:46:22] <haksaw> dofidum: I agree...
[10:46:56] <haksaw> dofidum: there is some formula on calculating bugs per lines of code.
[10:50:30] <haksaw> thanks again guys
[10:56:38] <specing> abcminiuser: Are you also IRCing from work?
[11:18:33] <abcminiuser> specing, no, at home, it's Sunday
[11:18:39] <abcminiuser> But I don't IRC at work, just twitter
[11:18:46] <abcminiuser> And occasional emails if I'm not busy
[11:18:52] <abcminiuser> I'm on Atmel Support for the next 5 weeks or so
[11:19:03] <abcminiuser> So if you have questions, email me there :P
[11:19:03] <Tom_itx> then what?
[11:19:31] <rue_house> the real trick is to learn to write your program in pieces that are 90% correct, that you know where atleast 5% of the problems might be, then to test it, correct it to 100% and combine it with another and another till the program is complete
[11:20:10] <specing> abcminiuser: Have you told your collegues about us?
[11:20:38] <Tom_itx> why would he?
[11:20:41] <specing> Idk
[11:20:43] <Tom_itx> we are his support group
[11:20:45] <specing> because chatter
[11:21:02] <Tom_itx> as if he really needed us
[11:21:07] <abcminiuser> specing, about you lot? Good lord no
[11:21:13] <specing> Haha
[11:43:23] <norbi> hi guys
[11:44:47] <norbi> i have a very OFF TOPIC question, i know that some of you are using pic's too, guys from pic looks like they are busy, almost all the time, can somebody help me with pic32? my avr board just burned out and i had to switch to pic until the board maker is repairing my avr board
[13:17:02] <ferdna> if i wanted to make a pcb for a led matrix 8x8
[13:17:09] <ferdna> how will i connect my leds
[13:17:16] <ferdna> since they will intersect with each other?
[13:19:03] <specing> There are many different topologies of wiring leds
[13:21:05] <specing> you can do:
[13:21:14] * ferdna listens
[13:21:24] <specing> - individual wires (8 * 8 * 2 = 128 = ineficient)
[13:21:55] <specing> - individual wires on which two leds are wired backwards (8 * 8 = 64 = better, but still bad)
[13:23:04] <specing> - common row ground, individual column wires (8 + 8 * 8 wires = 72 (bad))
[13:23:12] <specing> + 3 variations of the above
[13:23:33] <specing> - common row ground, common column anode ( 16 wires)
[13:23:41] <specing> + reversed
[13:23:55] <Tom_itx> charlieplex
[13:26:23] <cyanide> what is the name of the header pins that go inside this kind of socket?
http://www.moates.net/gmecm/g2/g2-x0.jpg
[13:26:51] <cyanide> one pin broke on my header and the regular headers don't go in the tiny holes
[13:28:05] <mrfrenzy> turned pin
[13:28:56] <cyanide> i love you man
[13:28:59] <cyanide> thanks!
[13:29:41] <mrfrenzy> no problems ;)
[13:31:39] <cyanide> is that the uk/british name for it? most google searches point to uk results
[13:31:48] <cyanide> as in, the americans using a different name for it?
[13:33:37] <ferdna> specing, Tom_itx thanks...
[14:06:08] <Steffanx> Ha Mr. Wessels
[14:06:16] <Steffanx> -s?
[14:12:58] <RikusW> Hi Steffanx
[14:18:11] <specing> Hi
[14:18:15] <specing> Progress?
[14:19:12] <Steffanx> Always
[14:36:20] <amee2k> is there some particular reason why transistors in heatsink mountable packages always tend to have the drain/collector on the tab?? :/
[14:42:41] <Casper> amee2k: only because the tab is the center pin...
[14:44:26] <amee2k> but why does the drain have to be always on the center pin then? :/
[14:44:43] <amee2k> thats annoying... for low side applications having the source there would be much more convenient IMO
[14:45:15] <Casper> probably due to how the part is build...
[14:45:34] <Casper> the die itself I mean
[14:46:31] <Casper> hmmm maybe not...
[14:46:55] <Casper> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/MOSFET_Structure.png/220px-MOSFET_Structure.png ← if that pic is accurate, there is no reason
[14:47:34] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1RHpv
[14:47:37] <amee2k> hm.
[14:47:39] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1RHpb
[14:48:40] <RikusW> amee2k: sounds like you need insulating bushes/washers ?
[14:48:51] <Casper> RikusW: that's what he mean
[14:49:02] <Casper> if they were build differently he wouln't need them
[14:49:42] <Casper> my next guess would be that the drain is actually the part that heat up
[14:50:04] <amee2k> RikusW: i'm once again trying to avoid them :/
[14:50:19] <Casper> amee2k: how good are you with smps?
[14:50:29] <amee2k> "with smps"?
[14:50:46] <Casper> analysing them... and designing them
[14:51:50] <Casper> I have this schem that bug me... there is one protection that I can't figure out at all
[14:52:05] <amee2k> not too good
[14:52:11] <RikusW> Casper: I repair PC smps's
[14:52:19] <amee2k> i know the theory, but never done any actual design beyond a 34063
[14:52:33] <Casper> ahh RikusW ! you might be the one!
[14:52:35] <amee2k> you don't need to know much about SMPs to swap some chinese caps :P
[14:53:26] <amee2k> what is the problem you're stuck with?
[14:53:53] <Casper> http://www.pavouk.org/hw/atxps.png ← the gate drive transformer. the protection sensed at C22 (secondary side, bellow the center tap diode D15). And why the third primary on the same transformer?
[14:55:05] <Casper> I understand everything else, but those 2 things... grrr
[14:55:34] <Casper> I want to hack some psu, if those are there, it's probably for a reason...
[14:56:19] <RikusW> you mean the one in series with the power transformer ?
[14:56:31] <Casper> T2
[14:57:09] <Steffanx> Why you try to avoid those cheap ass insulating bushes/washers amee2k ?
[14:58:20] <Casper> T2, top right winding, from the main transformer T3.... and the protection sense at T2 centertap on secondary
[14:58:24] <amee2k> so i can submerge the transistor in a coolant circuit
[14:58:49] <amee2k> the third winding on the drive transformer is the feedback winding
[14:58:54] <amee2k> if we both mean the same third winding
[14:59:22] <amee2k> the drive transformer is part of an oscillator... thats how it starts up when you power it on
[14:59:49] <RikusW> Casper: I think the third winding is used for regenrative switching
[14:59:55] <amee2k> it starts off as a self-oscillating converter until the 494 takes over control of the drive transformer
[15:00:27] <amee2k> and then the 494 just steers a tiny bit of current around, and due to the positive feedback the bulk of the base current "follows" the drive from the 494
[15:01:00] <amee2k> i'd say the shitty protection circuit abuses the drive transformer as current transformer, but thats just a guess
[15:01:00] <Casper> RikusW: which mean?
[15:01:20] <RikusW> Casper: it might help to turn on the power transistors harder
[15:01:35] <RikusW> and you have mixed up T2 primary and secondary...
[15:01:40] <amee2k> thats what i just said :P
[15:01:44] <RikusW> the lower windings is primary
[15:02:20] <amee2k> http://ludens.cl/Electron/PS40/PS40.html << this one has a pretty good explanation... it uses a different SMP controller but pretty much the same drive scheme
[15:02:40] <Casper> http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/646/smpsprotection.png ← those 2
[15:02:40] <RikusW> amee2k: the power transformer don't need feedback to start, thats what the 5Vsb transformer are for
[15:02:44] <amee2k> it uses an extra transformer for the current transformer though
[15:03:09] <amee2k> RikusW: where on that PSU shcem do you see an auxiliary regulator?
[15:03:23] <amee2k> ooh, the shitty forward converter in the corner
[15:03:27] <amee2k> i missed that one :P
[15:03:50] <amee2k> well, the topology like that can still start on its own
[15:03:51] <RikusW> all ATX supplies have 5Vsb with 12V for the PWM ic too
[15:04:04] <amee2k> and thats probably what the AT PSU design that this piece of shit that the schem is from did
[15:04:09] <RikusW> amee2k: thats the way AT smps worked ;)
[15:04:21] <amee2k> thats what i just said :P
[15:05:13] <RikusW> Casper beware of C5+C6 on that schematic :-D
[15:05:37] <Casper> :D
[15:05:38] <Casper> ya
[15:05:50] <amee2k> i don't think he has an actual PSU for that schem
[15:05:51] <Casper> 170VDC on each can be an hair raising experience
[15:05:55] <RikusW> on some supplies there is no discharging resistors....
[15:06:11] <Casper> no I do not, but it's very simmilar to all design I saw
[15:06:13] <amee2k> the balancing resistors act as discharge resistors
[15:06:14] <RikusW> especially in 470uF
[15:06:32] <amee2k> and even if not, the shitty auxiliary supply regulator is going to suck them dry
[15:07:19] <RikusW> amee2k: thats is if it works, I repair them remember ;)
[15:07:48] <RikusW> I've seen a few that needs to be manually discharged, I have a nice big 100Ohm resistor for that
[15:07:51] <amee2k> considering the shitty build quality i'm surprised that they work at all
[15:08:06] <Casper> so, the winding is what? current sense hence the protection? or regenerative?
[15:08:15] <amee2k> both
[15:08:51] <Casper> so the voltage at C22 reflect the current in the primary?
[15:09:03] <amee2k> i'd say so, more or less
[15:09:31] <amee2k> that schematic is drawn like shit
[15:09:38] <amee2k> still trying to make heads or tails of the fault latch
[15:10:10] <Casper> I'll help ya: they badly designed the fault latch there: it reset if you shut off the psu via the ps_on
[15:10:51] <amee2k> o.O
[15:11:05] <Casper> yes I know...
[15:11:11] <Casper> no comment on that stupidness
[15:11:12] <amee2k> well
[15:11:15] <amee2k> welcome to china
[15:11:20] <amee2k> thats industry quality for ya
[15:11:54] <Casper> but that latch isn't that important... thing is, the more I try to hack the circuit, the more I realise that I need to build everything back from the ground up
[15:12:20] <amee2k> well
[15:12:21] <Casper> but I want to understand that one, so I can avoid smoking things, or building a time bomb :D
[15:12:54] <amee2k> doing a clean mod on a down and dirty as cheap as they come backbirth of a hack is not exactly easy ;)
[15:13:09] <amee2k> last summer i turned a shitty ATX like that into a battery charger
[15:13:25] <amee2k> that one was even more shitty because it used only one error amp on the 494
[15:13:49] <amee2k> that also made retrofitting a constant current mode easy by lifting pins on that unused error amp
[15:14:00] <amee2k> and running "bodge wires" to a retrofitted shunt
[15:14:37] <Casper> that's basically what I want to do
[15:14:47] <amee2k> the two things that made me facepalm about mine was
[15:15:18] <amee2k> duty cycle on the 494 reached 100% and just over 100W output. the error amp output going through the root then trips the fault latch
[15:15:30] <amee2k> the PSU was labeled for 280W or so i think
[15:16:07] <amee2k> and secondly, the 3.3V rail was a cheap power MOSFET with a TL431 on the gate as ghetto LDO to derieve it from the 5V rail
[15:17:30] <amee2k> http://ve504.cugnet.net/~amee2k/sandbox/ATX-PSU-r5.pdf << that should be the schem
[15:18:51] <Steffanx> amee2k is going to clone a psu?
[15:18:59] <amee2k> i am?
[15:19:02] <amee2k> i didn't know
[15:19:08] <amee2k> far out, man
[15:19:15] * amee2k congratulates himself vigorously
[15:20:10] <Steffanx> That pdf looks like the fancy drawings you make :P
[15:20:20] <amee2k> thats what i did
[15:20:26] <amee2k> you've never seen it before?
[15:20:39] <Steffanx> Now i'm lost
[15:20:53] <amee2k> am i supposed to agree now?
[15:20:54] <amee2k> >_>
[15:21:03] <Steffanx> No, you shouldnt
[15:21:10] <amee2k> then i won't :P
[15:21:18] <Steffanx> Just to clarify, you made that pdf?
[15:21:24] <amee2k> yes
[15:21:26] <amee2k> why?
[15:21:36] <Casper> amee2k: how did you reverse engineered? pen and paper? or computer assisted?
[15:21:39] <amee2k> you want to license the design?
[15:21:44] <amee2k> >_>
[15:22:03] <amee2k> Casper: both... i put the board on a scanner to get a good shot of the solder side
[15:22:05] <Casper> bbl, grocery shopping
[15:22:26] <amee2k> then i used an image editing tool to overlay the component symbols on the bottom
[15:22:49] <amee2k> then copying it to paper was easy. once i figured out how it works, i started drawing it on the computer
[15:23:33] <OndraSter> so, for some (unknown) reason, the online 3D gerber view messes up drill file, offsets it by a bit
[15:23:50] <amee2k> "online gerber view"?
[15:23:51] <OndraSter> and now I am not sure if it is Eagle's fault or the gerber viewer's fault
[15:23:54] <OndraSter> http://mayhewlabs.com/webGerber/
[15:23:58] <OndraSter> (requires WebGL)
[15:24:04] <amee2k> lolview
[15:24:11] <Steffanx> lolview ...
[15:24:22] <amee2k> don't send some cloud toy to do the job of a real program, silly ;)
[15:24:22] <Steffanx> amee2k used some drugs?
[15:24:44] <amee2k> i did?
[15:24:58] <amee2k> man, how come everyone knows this stuff except for me
[15:25:00] <amee2k> >_<
[15:25:08] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1RHUK
[15:25:10] <OndraSter> it does this :(
[15:25:24] <OndraSter> and yes, I made sure I don't have anything - including silkscreen - beyond the Dimension layer
[15:25:55] <amee2k> lol
[15:26:18] <Steffanx> Why you answer all my questions with an answer? amee2k ?
[15:26:40] <OndraSter> because he is The Riddle guy
[15:26:52] <Steffanx> OndraSter, I just dropped some gerber files from myself into that thingy, seems to work ok
[15:26:59] <OndraSter> hmm
[15:27:08] <OndraSter> I don't want mine design to be effed up at fab house :)
[15:27:20] <Steffanx> Try gerbv ?
[15:27:37] <amee2k> Steffanx: does that annoy you?
[15:27:47] <Steffanx> Who knows amee2k ?
[15:27:59] <amee2k> shouldn't you know?
[15:28:00] <Steffanx> *, amee2k
[15:28:21] <Steffanx> I'm not sure anymore
[15:28:43] <amee2k> thats what you usually aren't, yes.
[15:29:19] <Steffanx> That's what you say
[15:29:37] <amee2k> thats what i usually do, yes.
[15:30:04] <Steffanx> I guess amee2k is in a good mood today
[15:30:18] <amee2k> lol
[15:30:27] <amee2k> is that the new euphemism for using illicit drugs?
[15:31:03] <Steffanx> That's all up to you
[15:32:18] <OndraSter> hmm even gerbv has the drills a bit off
[15:32:19] <OndraSter> WHY
[15:32:24] <OndraSter> WHAT HAVE YOU, EAGLE, DONE
[15:32:53] <amee2k> lol
[15:33:03] <OndraSter> why are you doing that :(
[15:33:23] <OndraSter> I think it is time to go Altium way... but it has (for me) terrible use of mouse buttons
[15:33:28] <OndraSter> Eagle's way is great
[15:34:27] <Steffanx> You use the cam job stuff from seeed OndraSter ?
[15:34:30] <OndraSter> yes
[15:34:36] <OndraSter> it was fine on previous project
[15:34:36] <Steffanx> hmm, a recent version?
[15:34:39] <OndraSter> yes
[15:34:44] <OndraSter> actually it is cam job from iTead
[15:34:46] <OndraSter> but they are the same
[15:41:10] <Steffanx> Hmm, i have an 'older' seeedstudio version, the newest version from iteadstudio crashed eagle 6.1
[15:41:14] <Steffanx> *crashes
[15:43:18] <OndraSter> yeah
[15:43:22] <OndraSter> you need eagle 6.2 :)
[15:43:27] <OndraSter> that fixes it
[16:16:06] <Casper> amee2k: do you think it would be a good idea to use a low Vref for the current sense amplifier or the noise would make it bad?
[16:24:24] <amee2k> Casper: depends on what kind of current
[16:24:47] <amee2k> ref voltage is mildly related to the shunt drop in current mode regulation
[16:24:52] <amee2k> and hence to shunt losses
[16:25:19] <amee2k> if you can just drop in a 10W wirewound and not give a fuck if it gets hot enough to make a pizza on, then why not
[16:53:17] <Casper> amee2k: that 13.8V 40A psu schem is interresting
[16:53:28] <Casper> some hack on it and it should be better than what I wanted to do
[16:57:26] <amee2k> Casper: yeah... carefully read the write-up on it though, especially the part about the magnetics
[16:57:48] <amee2k> the main power transformer is a pretty sick stunt there
[16:58:08] <Casper> my current concern is the current transformer
[16:58:24] <amee2k> the current limit on that PSU is only intended as overload protection
[16:58:41] <amee2k> it does not natively support a proper constant current mode
[16:58:56] <Casper> I know
[16:59:19] <Casper> but I like that limit, in case of a fault
[16:59:28] <amee2k> yep
[17:00:28] <Casper> but might not need a primary one
[17:00:28] <amee2k> iirc it doesn't have a fault latch though, so it will keep throttling back and browning out
[17:00:52] <amee2k> then repeatedly attempt to restart with an overload attached
[17:01:03] <Casper> but I'm worried about the main transformer
[17:01:07] <Casper> that is 15:2
[17:01:18] <amee2k> yeah, and it is a pretty sick construct too
[17:01:39] <amee2k> iirc with 5 cores stacked on top of each other, and wound with copper tape
[17:01:39] <Casper> atx psu use what... 40:7 I think
[17:01:52] <amee2k> forget the ATX PSU core lol
[17:02:02] <Casper> why?
[17:02:13] <amee2k> because it is tiny?
[17:02:24] <Casper> ah he use only 25kHz
[17:02:53] <amee2k> and you'll have no idea about the specs of a salvaged core
[17:03:10] <Casper> no, but I know it was running at around 66kHz
[17:03:23] <Casper> with a psu rating of 300W
[17:03:30] <Steffanx> OndraSter still there?
[17:03:59] <OndraSter> ye
[17:04:34] <Steffanx> Just tried the iteadstudio cam job .. drills are off
[17:04:37] <Steffanx> of
[17:04:44] <OndraSter> huh
[17:04:47] <OndraSter> so it is not mine problem
[17:04:49] <OndraSter> damn
[17:06:39] <Steffanx> it's the iteadstudio stuff
[17:06:58] <OndraSter> yeh
[17:07:02] <OndraSter> gotta check out the cam job
[17:07:16] <Steffanx> The one from seeed is ok
[17:09:19] <dubzd> Quick question. I want to make a programming socket for atmega328s - do I have to include a clock source to program it? Or can I just hook up the ISP connections
[17:11:42] <amee2k> okay, another theory question.
[17:11:43] <Steffanx> Not necessary dubzd
[17:12:05] <dubzd> Thank you steffanx
[17:12:06] <Steffanx> At least, they use the internal clock by default
[17:12:27] <amee2k> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transformer_equivalent_circuit.svg << is the parallel inductance XM in this equivalent model the reason why a real transformer (unlike an ideal one) won't work with DC?
[17:13:04] <amee2k> an inductor is a short at DC, so this would effective short out the winding on the ideal transformer submodel
[17:13:18] <OndraSter> Steffanx, let's see, printing gerber files through seed one
[17:13:26] <dubzd> What if I set the fuse bits to use external?
[17:13:43] <Steffanx> Then you need an external clock/xtal dubzd
[17:13:52] <OndraSter> woah
[17:13:53] <OndraSter> it works
[17:13:54] <OndraSter> and fits
[17:13:57] <OndraSter> let's see
[17:14:03] <OndraSter> let's compare the cam jobs*
[17:14:51] <OndraSter> Steffanx, have you upgraded to new Eagle 6.2 as well?
[17:15:06] <Steffanx> Yes
[17:15:12] <OndraSter> I see there one major difference
[17:15:18] <OndraSter> the flags are different
[17:15:21] <OndraSter> looking at the .cam file
[17:15:46] <OndraSter> hmm
[17:15:53] <OndraSter> they have checked "pos. corrd" and "optimize"
[17:15:54] <OndraSter> coord*
[17:20:42] <OndraSter> woot
[17:20:51] <OndraSter> the seedstudio one actually works even with my edited BNC library
[17:20:55] <OndraSter> err
[17:20:57] <OndraSter> BNC connectors :)
[17:21:08] <OndraSter> where only the base where are connectors is on the silkscreen
[17:21:19] <OndraSter> and the rest is outside of the board
[17:21:33] <Steffanx> :)
[17:21:34] <OndraSter> iTead's cam job was actually pushing it outside and the board was just... effed up
[17:21:40] <OndraSter> somebody should e-mail it to them
[17:26:44] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1RJ52
[17:27:02] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1RJ5d
[17:27:04] <OndraSter> =)
[17:27:14] <OndraSter> now I can move the tiger back to the middle of the board
[17:28:00] <OndraSter> actually I can now go for grounded middle for the xmega since I fixed it =)
[17:28:05] <OndraSter> thanks again, Steffanx
[17:28:11] <OndraSter> already sent email notification to itead
[17:50:45] * Casper needs a junction box
[17:50:49] <Casper> stores are closed
[17:51:41] <Steffanx> And now.. you want me to send you one?
[18:55:58] <OndraSter> :D
[19:03:44] <Tom_itx> ok back out to blow up a psu
[19:03:46] <Tom_itx> err fix..
[20:02:53] <Casper> some more holes.... and few things and I'll be done fixing the ceiling wiring mess....
[20:03:24] <Essobi> WEE!
[21:13:12] <Casper> yay done!... almost, the rest: tomorrow
[22:15:20] <Essobi> yay
[23:12:13] <inflex> Tom_itx: btw, used the HV module to recover a T10 for the first time
[23:12:50] <inflex> Tom_itx: I have a 2-step avrdude shell script, first flashes it with the firmware, then blows the RST fuse.... and I wrote it slightly wrong and it failed the firmware flash but succeeded the RST blow
[23:14:07] <Casper> atleast you recovered and learned
[23:16:27] <Casper> man so much cleaner...
[23:16:42] <Casper> it's amazing how a few wires can mess the ceiling
[23:19:35] * Essobi stabs his box.
[23:19:53] <Casper> Essobi: that was resixian's bot, not your
[23:20:15] <Essobi> I said box, not bot.
[23:20:25] <Essobi> This netBSD box is unamusing at the moment.
[23:20:44] <Essobi> tiny little embedded hell I'm trapped in. :D
[23:22:34] <Tom_itx> inflex good stuff
[23:22:51] <inflex> Tom_itx: shame I'm winding things down
[23:23:09] <inflex> Tom_itx: but I am seeing that for the forseeable future I have to run the electronics as well in a reduced capacity to make ends meet
[23:24:52] <Tom_itx> everything seems to be in a 'reduced capacity' here lately
[23:51:47] <inflex> Tom_itx: yes, a lot of things winding down... not sure if it's going to be a full blown recession or just a readjustment
