#avr | Logs for 2012-04-06

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[01:10:52] <P3X018> I'm trying to upload a program to my device using uisp, but I'm getting "Programmer is not responding.", how do I know which ttySx would be the correct one to use?
[01:11:17] <theBear> P3X018, depends which serial port you plugged into
[01:11:37] <P3X018> theBear: I'm using a USB-serial adaptor
[01:11:51] <theBear> then it aint gonna be ttyS?
[01:11:57] <theBear> look in /dev/usb maybe
[01:13:52] <Casper> dmesg
[01:14:00] <Casper> and look what it got assigned to
[01:14:22] <P3X018> ohh great it's stated there
[01:16:21] <P3X018> hmm still not responding even when using the correct name... I'm using the command: uisp -dprog=stk500 -dserial/dev/ttyUSB0 -dpart=ATmega8515 --upload --verify if=rom.hex
[01:16:51] <theBear> stk500 isn't a serial programmer
[01:16:58] <theBear> oh wait, 500, mightbe
[01:17:09] <Casper> we use avrdude here
[01:17:31] <P3X018> ok.. but stk500 does work through serial
[01:17:31] <ziph> STK500 is RS232 unless something has changed recently.
[01:17:37] <theBear> how about -dserial= blah ?
[01:17:40] <P3X018> yea it's rs232
[01:17:43] <theBear> yeah. i was thinking 200/300
[01:17:49] <theBear> forgive me
[01:18:03] <theBear> i mean, just looking at the rest of that line serial/ would be bad syntax
[01:18:37] <P3X018> sorry I forgot to write -dserial = /dev/ttyUSB0
[01:18:45] <P3X018> just a typo here
[01:18:53] <theBear> you should learn to cut and paste, it's good
[01:19:14] <P3X018> hehe, I would but it's on another computer
[01:20:19] <theBear> never heard of ssh ?
[01:20:29] <P3X018> I should mention that I had huge trouble making the adaptor work on windows, always got the Prolofic warning "Device cannot start (Code 10)", and never managed to make it work..
[01:20:33] <P3X018> I know ssh
[01:20:56] <theBear> it's good for multiple computers.... means you only need one keyboard/mouse/screen
[01:22:45] <ziph> The network mouse/keyboard applications are nice, except none of them work with tablets.
[01:23:34] <theBear> i dunno, i got a nice one on my mobile, which is basically a small tablet
[01:23:55] <ziph> I mean a Wacom tablet.
[01:24:28] <ziph> And applications like http://synergy-foss.org/, not VNC.
[01:24:49] <theBear> oh, that kinda tablet
[01:24:54] <theBear> and i know synergy well
[01:25:00] <Landon> I'm not sure how I'd want it to work with a tablet
[01:25:27] <ziph> Easy, you assign the third pen button to switch screen.
[01:25:40] <ziph> It's what the Wacom drivers allow you do to for multiple screens.
[01:25:44] <ziph> It works brilliantly.
[01:25:53] <Landon> absolute positioning and all
[01:26:06] <Landon> ah
[01:26:10] <ziph> And as an added benefit, accidentally knocking your mouse onto the other screen causes the keyboard text to go to the wrong place.
[01:26:22] <ziph> Which doesn't happen with a tablet and the third button.
[01:26:50] <ziph> And there's no huge dragging sweeps as you need with the mouse to switch screens. :)
[01:32:43] <Kevin`> eh? all you have to do to switch screens is press ctrl+alt+{left,right}
[01:33:49] <P3X018> I guess my PL2303 adaptor is useless for this purpose, as I failed to connect to my device using both windows and linux. Is it because of the adaptor type, of would different USB-serial adaptors work the same?
[01:34:14] <Kevin`> didn't you have driver problems on windows? what happened on linux
[01:34:46] <P3X018> Getting "Programmer is not responding" on linux
[01:34:55] <Kevin`> test the adapter with a terminal and loopback first
[01:35:14] <P3X018> yeah on windows I never managed to make it work, because windows 7 kept downloading it's own perception of driver :@
[01:35:26] <P3X018> what's that?
[01:35:43] <Kevin`> connect tx and rx together on the adapter and type some text
[01:39:36] <P3X018> Kevin`: so where do I type some text and what should I expect?
[01:39:49] <Kevin`> you should see what you type
[01:39:57] <P3X018> or where do I see the response
[01:40:00] <Kevin`> I like to use screen, but most people seem to use minicom
[01:40:06] <Kevin`> screen /dev/ttyUSB0 9600
[01:42:37] <P3X018> ok sweet I see a response... (through I accidently "shorted" pin 1 and 2, would that cause a trouble?)
[01:47:03] * theBear forgets what pin 1 and 2 are
[01:47:11] <theBear> screen does serial ? wow
[02:15:43] <P3X018> omg it finally works on win XP when installing a very old driver!
[02:16:15] <theBear> forget xp, it sounds like you have a real os handy
[02:16:16] <P3X018> But that damned win 7 just forces it's own "database" of drivers and won't allow the one I install :S
[02:18:35] <Casper> you can force your driver
[02:18:40] <Casper> I did it
[02:18:44] <Casper> it's just more of a pita
[02:18:51] <P3X018> How when it's an .exe file?
[02:19:13] <Casper> then it's harder...
[02:19:23] <Casper> you need to get to the driver files... so the .inf
[02:19:29] <P3X018> yeah
[02:19:51] <P3X018> But I can't seem to find the drivers with .inf files anywhere..
[02:20:14] <Casper> probably in the temp files
[02:21:20] <ziph> Is this some random serial adapter?
[02:21:30] <ziph> Throw it out and buy an FTDI adapter if it is.
[02:22:02] <P3X018> something from wentronic.com...
[02:22:12] <Casper> the pl2303?
[02:22:16] <P3X018> yea
[02:23:10] <Casper> it's a pita to setup
[02:23:19] <Casper> somehow it's a popular chip
[02:23:29] <Casper> but they seems to issue takedown for the drivers
[02:23:34] <theBear> i think it's more common and easily available than popular <grin>
[02:23:37] <Casper> as there is always a 404 on all the download
[02:26:14] <P3X018> yeah probaly the first thing you run into when you search usb-serial adaptor.
[02:26:41] <P3X018> DIdn't know of FTDI then... but perhaps I get one if this turns out to be a let down..
[02:27:26] <P3X018> http://www.avxperten.dk/adaptere/pc-adapter/usb-2.0-til-rs232-adapter-%289-pol%29.asp <-- the one I have now...
[02:27:34] <Kevin`> pl2303 has always worked fine for me, although I don't use it much in windows
[02:27:49] <Casper> I used one for my ups
[02:27:51] <ziph> You can get the FTDI IC's if you want to build them into something and the drivers are widely available.
[02:27:54] <Casper> worked well under linux
[02:30:53] <P3X018> hmm so do you detect the device and upload program when using AVR studio 5.0 (I've only 4.0 in the past)
[02:31:14] <P3X018> I can't seem to detect anything when opening Tools --> AVR Programming
[02:31:49] <P3X018> Perhaps the disappearance of the yellow exclamationmark was simply an illusion that this would work :|
[02:31:52] <theBear> test with the backend it uses first (i would guess uisp or avrdude or even pony) then when that works look at getting studio to work
[02:32:09] <theBear> and if the backend doesn't work do some kinda loopback test like you did earlier
[02:32:38] <P3X018> loopback test worked on linux, but I still had the "Programmer is not found" error...
[02:33:05] <theBear> do you know that the programmer works ?
[02:33:45] <P3X018> I have no idea what "programmer" refers to..
[02:33:53] <theBear> the stk500
[02:34:31] <P3X018> It's an out-of-box
[02:34:39] <P3X018> All new, haven't tried it.
[02:35:47] <theBear> and it is connected to a device right ?
[02:36:08] <theBear> like a micro
[02:36:17] <P3X018> yeah
[02:36:25] <P3X018> The chip you referring to?
[02:36:29] <theBear> and it's got power and all that
[02:36:37] <theBear> yeah, a target device, aka chip to be programmed
[02:36:40] <P3X018> Got the ATmega8515 on it. Got power too
[02:39:27] <P3X018> You could do a test in AVR studio 4.0 to use whether your device was correctly connected, how do you do that in 5.0?
[02:40:10] <P3X018> to see whehther*
[02:41:00] <theBear> i dunno, like i said test the backend it uses first
[02:41:07] <theBear> i never liked avr studio, or windows
[02:41:18] <P3X018> ohh ok
[02:41:23] <theBear> that's not true, before a gui was practical in linux, i liked windows for some things, but that was a LONG LONG time ago
[02:42:03] <P3X018> you seem to have abandoned windows for good..
[02:42:18] <ferdna> Casper, has a donkey ass...
[02:42:39] <Casper> and you think I'm gonna help you again?
[02:42:49] <ferdna> =)
[02:42:50] <ziph> P3X018: Unless you want to witness a giant Linux circle jerk I'd change the topic.
[02:42:56] <theBear> i sure have, never been happier
[02:43:14] <P3X018> hehe
[02:43:21] <theBear> just between you and me, i tend to keep a 4gig partition on one machine to play racing car games, it's not my fault they don't make racing car games for linux
[02:43:43] <theBear> and yeah, lets not get into os's, everyone has their reasons, and it's not a productive thing to argue
[02:44:26] <ferdna> Casper, so what do you think?
[02:44:42] <Casper> is there someone talking?
[02:44:44] <P3X018> most be those racing games from 90's, eh...
[02:44:47] <ferdna> theBear, i miss l4d2
[02:44:57] <ferdna> Casper, yes
[02:45:14] <theBear> nah, i'm up to the early 2000's now... i think currently it's mcrae 2003
[02:45:25] * theBear doesn't have modern hardware
[02:45:43] <ferdna> i ate a big two meat hamburger... and i dont want to go to bed yet
[02:45:50] <ferdna> i want to wait at least 30 mins
[02:46:12] <theBear> two meat ? like beef and bacon ?
[02:46:25] <ferdna> 2 beef and 2 bacons
[02:46:28] <ferdna> whataburger
[02:46:42] <ferdna> i got combo# 2
[02:46:50] <ferdna> with cheese and bacon
[02:47:03] <ferdna> and its 1:30 am
[02:47:10] <Casper> time to bed, nite all
[02:47:13] <theBear> i like bread too much, i don't like double beef burgers
[02:47:17] <theBear> cya casper :)
[02:47:21] <ferdna> Casper, good night casper
[02:47:28] <P3X018> nite there
[02:48:02] <ferdna> theBear, as in sweet bread?
[02:48:17] <theBear> as in all bread that doesn't have anything stupid like meat or cheese cooked into it
[02:50:14] <ferdna> hehehe
[03:02:08] <ferdna> well good night
[03:02:40] <theBear> ok
[03:10:01] <Metalsutton> Hey everyone
[03:10:53] <Metalsutton> I have built an IDENTICAL circuit next to each other on some stripboard, is there any reason why one would work and the other not? I have quaduple checked EVERYTHING.
[03:11:41] <theBear> 'cos you missed something in all 4 checks
[03:11:49] <mrfrenzy> can you paste a photo?
[03:11:51] <Metalsutton> nope.
[03:11:54] <theBear> might be physical, might be a dead component
[03:12:03] <theBear> trust me, you missed something
[03:12:08] <Metalsutton> Ill take a phot with the flash on.
[03:12:36] <Metalsutton> there is some bridging i did with solder, does too much cause a break in connection?
[03:12:51] <theBear> you said it yourself, identical, yet different (one doesn't work) .. therefore, something isn't as identical as you intended
[03:13:33] <Metalsutton> I can only put it down to a bad solder, thats the only explaination, but everything looks fine!
[03:14:09] <theBear> bad solder usually looks fine or very close
[03:14:19] <theBear> with stripboard i'd lookout for bridges
[03:15:02] <Metalsutton> i have
[03:15:08] <Metalsutton> taking photos now
[03:15:26] <mrfrenzy> start at your battery/psu, measure voltages and compare between the two circuit
[03:16:19] <Metalsutton> +5v (usb) and ground seem fine.
[03:16:32] <Metalsutton> How would you measure he D- and D+ lines?
[03:16:39] <theBear> with a scope
[03:16:48] <theBear> or powered off resistance to gnd/vcc maybe
[03:25:02] <Metalsutton> http://imgur.com/a/Yxhgc
[03:25:54] <theBear> hmm... left side doesn't work ?
[03:27:28] <Metalsutton> on the top down view, the left doesnt work.
[03:27:43] <Metalsutton> on the bottom side, its the right (sorry, didnt flip image)
[03:29:12] <theBear> err, only the bottom side has a left/right :)
[03:29:16] <theBear> but i got it
[03:29:54] <theBear> done continuity/beep test across all the drilled holes and/or between adjacent tracks ?
[03:31:47] <Metalsutton> no.... and i dont have a multimeter with one on me at the moment :(
[03:31:52] <Metalsutton> (no bats)
[03:32:28] <theBear> well err, you haven't really checked anything much at all 4 times then
[03:33:12] <Metalsutton> har har. this be true.
[03:34:13] <Tom_itx> holy crap batman... it's theBear
[03:34:18] <theBear> :)
[03:35:03] <theBear> Metalsutton, there are a couple of suspicious looking spots, hard to see for sure in pictures that 'small' ... but shorts across drilled/cut tracks and tiny bridges are the most common causes of problems with strip style boards
[03:35:43] <Metalsutton> hhmm the pics are massive. is there a way for imgur to not resize them?
[03:36:14] <theBear> it lets me zoom, but seeing sub 1/10th mm detail is tricky
[03:36:15] <Metalsutton> You may notice some of the more larger, intentional bridges.
[03:36:29] <theBear> yeah, i don't approve, but i checked both sides, they look ok
[03:37:14] <Tom_itx> what's that blob of solder 4-5 traces in from the left?
[03:38:39] <Tom_itx> and some stray copper strings on the top groups of 3 holes
[03:38:45] <theBear> oooh, good pick, but that's the side that DOES ork
[03:39:00] <theBear> maybe a bridge is missing ?
[03:39:17] <Tom_itx> it's ok, i'll swim across
[03:39:25] <theBear> :)
[03:39:29] <Metalsutton> That bridges pin 2 and 3.
[03:39:45] <Tom_itx> yes i know that, just making sure you did
[03:40:26] <Metalsutton> that i do
[03:40:53] <theBear> oh, i miscounted
[03:41:11] <theBear> yeah, that's on both sides
[03:41:14] * Tom_itx gives theBear a sliderule to play with
[03:41:27] <theBear> go get some batteries... give it the first and most basic test
[03:41:31] <theBear> thanks tom :)
[03:41:35] * theBear plays away
[03:42:18] <Metalsutton> Ill leave this till i get a tester working again and attack it tomorrow.
[03:42:25] <Metalsutton> cheers for the help however.
[03:42:33] <Tom_itx> you know, i bought some of those copper boards like that but i swear i never used them
[03:42:57] <Metalsutton> I want to get into making pcb's
[03:43:29] <Tom_itx> make an etch tank: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/etch_index.php
[03:43:58] <theBear> :)
[03:44:08] <Metalsutton> you have 3 keyboards...
[03:44:11] <theBear> i like my 'veroboards' and cheap copies for a lot of things
[03:44:29] <Tom_itx> 4
[03:45:13] <theBear> i've only got 2 and the laptops, tho i got err, 3 synths and a 'keytar' aka 'gitboard'
[03:45:49] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/scope1.jpg
[03:46:29] <Fleck> http://fleck.rullz.lv/opto/opto.png << whats wrong here? in USB 2 atmega part, the problem: i flashed atmega with code that just toggles pins, atmega is powered from external power supply, works great alone, but as long as i connect USB to laptop - atmega starts to "limp" etc.. like laptop introduces some kind of noise
[03:47:14] <Tom_itx> holy crap batman
[03:47:29] <Tom_itx> you have no resistors on the D+- lines
[03:48:02] <Fleck> if i remove all devices from laptop and even psu (running on battery) - works ok again, as long as i power back psu, or external monitor or even external sound card (that has external psu) - limps... ;D
[03:48:18] <Fleck> the problem is not D+/-
[03:48:25] <Fleck> i just touch GND for usb - and done
[03:48:43] <Fleck> anyway - i can add resistors, but thats not the point
[03:48:59] <Tom_itx> if you know that's not the problem then you must know what the problem is
[03:49:04] <theBear> laptops ARE noisy and tend to have semi-coupled gnd's that get very annoying if you connect another gnd(loop)
[03:49:21] <theBear> Tom_itx, hehe, i like that line, i will use it, you may be credited <grin>
[03:49:38] <Fleck> theBear yep, i have noticed that, how to fix?
[03:50:19] <Tom_itx> however, looking at one of sparkfun's schematics for the ft232 it may not require them
[03:50:37] <theBear> Fleck, now that is a loaded question
[03:50:51] <Fleck> theBear sorry?
[03:50:53] <theBear> easy with audio, use a little isolating transformer designed and mass produced (==cheap) for car stereos
[03:50:59] <Tom_itx> get a desktop pc?
[03:51:04] <theBear> Fleck, err, "that's the million dollar question"
[03:51:47] <Fleck> sorry, english is not my native lang
[03:51:57] <Fleck> no clue what you talking about right now :(
[03:51:58] <Tom_itx> the D+- traces should be short
[03:52:07] <theBear> umm, i'm not sure how to say it without colloquialisms... tom ?
[03:52:15] <Tom_itx> ?
[03:52:23] <theBear> oooh, how aobut, "that's not an easy question to answer"
[03:52:25] <Tom_itx> gawd such big words this early...
[03:52:28] <Fleck> Tom_itx lines are not long
[03:52:51] <Fleck> usb is just near ftd chip
[03:55:12] <Tom_itx> what are the optos for and why does the bottom one have a trace missing?
[03:56:37] <Fleck> just incomplete drwaing
[03:56:51] <Fleck> drawing
[03:57:36] <Tom_itx> i'd also put a pullup on the reset line there
[03:57:51] <Tom_itx> but i don't know the answer to your problem
[03:58:13] <theBear> incomplete drawings aren't likely to help find problems
[03:58:42] <Fleck> well that wire is connected to GND as its TX line
[03:58:59] <Tom_itx> what wire?
[03:59:13] <Metalsutton> Sorry if i am interuptting a convo. but you will never get what i just got hit with.
[03:59:15] <Fleck> missing one for opto
[03:59:17] <Metalsutton> So angry now.
[03:59:21] <Tom_itx> ok
[03:59:34] * Tom_itx hits Metalsutton with a bat
[03:59:36] <Tom_itx> a bat?
[03:59:43] <theBear> dead bird ?
[03:59:45] <theBear> frozen chicken ?
[04:00:06] <theBear> glass bottle full of live slugs and deshelled snails ?
[04:00:11] <theBear> subpoena ?
[04:00:17] <Metalsutton> Just got off the phone for 10mins with one of those scam telemarketers from india about a virus my computer has magicaly received intel and thought they would run me though the steps.
[04:00:25] <Fleck> maybe you guys have some schematics for usb + ft232 + opto + avr ?
[04:00:49] <theBear> Metalsutton, pfft, first time for you eh ? you'll get used to it
[04:00:50] <Tom_itx> Fleck, check sparkfun's site, i downloaded one from them for the ft232
[04:00:58] <Tom_itx> it's just a breakout board for it
[04:00:58] <Fleck> ok thx
[04:01:12] <Tom_itx> it looks rather similar to yours though
[04:01:24] <Metalsutton> DO these people actualy know they are part of a scam or not? Seriously, i was prepared to argue it alll night, and he wasn't backing down. Sticking to his script.
[04:01:38] <Fleck> Tom_itx: http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/FT232R-Breakout-v36.pdf ?
[04:02:09] <theBear> Metalsutton, i dunno, doesn't really matter if they know or not, good callcenter workers are good at following scripts, making belief irrelevant
[04:02:50] <theBear> i like to play with them if i'm in a good mood... "first click the start button" "this computer never had one" "what version of windows do you have" "windows ? what is windows?" etc etc
[04:03:18] <Tom_itx> what window do i need to look out to see what windows?
[04:03:24] <theBear> "download this exe" "ok, it says 'unrecognized binary format' what does that mean ?" "umm err, let me just check with my supervisor"
[04:04:20] <Metalsutton> I said I was running linux and that I was an IT pro and my job was to remove viruses. And then I said I had received intel that he had a virus...
[04:04:35] <theBear> hehe
[04:04:53] <Metalsutton> anyway. imm off, cheers for the help guys.
[04:09:23] <Fleck> Tom_itx i cant find there schematics with optoisolation
[04:20:10] <OndraSter> Fleck, honestly it sounds (at least right now from what I can read) that your laptop is having problem with floating PSU
[04:20:15] <OndraSter> being not floating
[04:20:44] <OndraSter> btw Tom_itx I don't have resistors on D+/D- as well :P
[04:20:46] <OndraSter> on my board
[04:20:52] <OndraSter> (also using FT232)
[04:25:15] <Fleck> OndraSter well i have origianl laptop psu etc
[04:25:17] <Fleck> so...
[04:25:31] <Fleck> i can try other laptop - but i guess will have the same problem
[04:26:15] <theBear> Fleck, try unplugging the laptop
[04:26:21] <Fleck> i did
[04:26:24] <Fleck> read above
[04:26:24] <theBear> or running your board off a battery
[04:26:38] <Valen> do rember that vusb is dodgy ;->
[04:27:10] <theBear> oh you did... doesn't change any of what we said, or make it an easier 'problem' to solve
[04:27:52] <Fleck> theBear with laptop running on battery - works ok!
[04:29:09] <OndraSter> yeah, sounds like floating supply issue
[04:29:25] <OndraSter> I used to have similar problems... so I changed my design and now it is running from battery lol
[04:29:30] <OndraSter> and logic is powered by USB
[04:31:14] <theBear> mmm, if you can power your whole avr board from usb5v that will work fine
[04:32:51] <grummund> http://fleck.rullz.lv/opto/opto.png <<< wtf? that's just wrong in so many ways
[04:37:53] <Fleck> grummund yes?
[04:38:01] <Fleck> explain please! :)
[04:38:38] <grummund> C4, C15-C17. what are these?
[04:38:51] <grummund> capacitors or resistors?
[04:39:21] <grummund> value?
[04:52:18] <OndraSter> wait
[04:52:21] <OndraSter> I haven't noticed thos
[04:52:22] <OndraSter> e
[04:52:25] <OndraSter> yes, it is absolutely weird lol
[04:52:45] <OndraSter> C4 and C16 are not supposed to be there
[04:52:53] <OndraSter> and the pin 1 on OK2 should be tied somewhere too!
[04:53:23] <OndraSter> just as the base of the phototransistors
[04:54:35] <Fleck> OndraSter [11:48:52] <Fleck> well that wire is connected to GND as its TX line
[04:54:52] <OndraSter> and what about those caps
[04:54:57] <OndraSter> on the rx's
[04:54:59] <OndraSter> err
[04:55:01] <OndraSter> on the tx's
[04:55:33] <Fleck> no clue
[04:55:46] <OndraSter> duh, the whole stuff is rather weird
[05:00:47] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1Mizk
[05:01:02] <OndraSter> but the rx's are inverted
[05:01:33] <OndraSter> you can configure it on FT232 in software, but not on the mega
[05:01:48] <OndraSter> ergo you'd either need simple inverter, or grab PNP optocoupler
[05:04:16] <Fleck> whats ergo?
[05:06:03] <OndraSter> thus
[05:08:17] <OndraSter> damn I wish the FPGA dev board would come ASAP :P
[05:08:22] <OndraSter> I WANNA PLAAAYY
[05:08:28] <Fleck> hmm
[05:08:32] <Fleck> not inverted here
[05:08:41] <Fleck> why is yours inverted?
[05:09:08] <OndraSter> hmm maybe you could tap it off at emittor
[05:09:23] <OndraSter> and pull it down with resistor, like 4k7 or so
[05:09:35] <OndraSter> I am not sure about the base, whether it should be tied high or low
[05:09:40] <Steffanx> Which FPGA board OndraSter ?
[05:10:05] <OndraSter> Steffanx, the one I posted here yesterday... it has CycloneII, 50MHz oscillator and some EEPROM on the board
[05:10:11] <OndraSter> for $24
[05:10:23] <Steffanx> link?
[05:10:39] <OndraSter> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EP2C5T144-Altera-Cyclone-II-FPGA-Mini-Development-Board-/270852398270?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f100f9cbe
[05:10:42] <OndraSter> (different seller)
[05:14:03] <Fleck> C4 and C16 are resistors, one more mistake in drawing ;D
[05:14:07] <OndraSter> ..
[05:14:39] <Fleck> base is floating here...
[05:14:44] <Fleck> no connection...
[05:14:50] <OndraSter> I don't think that is a good idea
[05:14:59] <OndraSter> try tying it down to ground via some higher resistor
[05:18:14] <Fleck> OndraSter u think that would fix my problem?
[05:18:20] <OndraSter> dunno
[05:19:46] <Fleck> intresting part is that i flashed atmega with code that toggles pins just with delay - and no serial initialized, and as i connect gnd with laptops - atmega struggles!
[05:20:15] <Valen> ground loop ftl?
[05:20:30] <theBear> yeah it is, he just doesn't seem to be getting the 'big picture'
[05:21:13] <Fleck> i know what ground loop is, but... how to fix it
[05:21:39] <Fleck> i am PA sound engineer
[05:21:50] <Fleck> had many problems with groundloops etc
[05:21:54] <Fleck> fixed them all!
[05:22:13] <Fleck> thats kindof easy - as you can remove connections - add transformers and diboxes
[05:22:18] <Fleck> but here...
[05:24:46] <theBear> you should never remove gnds in audio land, you should fix the underlying problem, and IF you can't do that use a transformer
[05:25:05] <theBear> trust me, i been doing PA's much longer than you
[05:25:11] <theBear> and studios, and repair, and design
[05:25:55] <inflex> ooooh sure, like you'd know
[05:26:01] * inflex looks around
[05:26:51] <theBear> hehe
[06:37:31] <Tom_itx> why do they even bring the base pin out on an opto?
[06:37:47] <Tom_itx> and i did miss those caps at 3am
[06:37:53] <Tom_itx> they're resistors
[06:39:27] <Tom_itx> or at least they should be
[06:58:42] <Fleck> theBear i mean - remove wire connection and insert transformer inbetween, i did not mean - remove GND :D
[07:00:56] <Fleck> and theBear - read: [13:12:03] <Fleck> fixed them all!
[07:02:39] <theBear> you also said 'remove connections'
[07:02:50] <Fleck> unplug plugs?
[07:03:07] <theBear> that hardly 'fixes' it :) that just stops the buzz AND the sound
[07:04:59] <Fleck> theBear you are completely missing the point
[07:05:06] <Fleck> so - never mind...
[07:05:32] <theBear> maybe you are struggling with punctuation earlier, but i'm not missing anything
[07:06:07] <Fleck> whatever
[08:05:00] <tosmo> i want to use ATOMIC(). the doc says c99 mode is required for this. what is the default mode of avr-gcc? would there be any surprises if i require c99?
[08:36:01] <OndraSter> so, I wrote to mouser about availability of Alteras and... nope
[08:36:07] <OndraSter> they told me that I should check in a few months
[08:36:11] <OndraSter> not what I was hoping for really
[09:23:18] <user82> hi.there was a graph in the atmega644p datasheet supply voltage against clock.can anyone tell me where i can find it again?
[09:25:57] <user82> found it. was under "electrical characteriscis" and i looked under "clock sources"
[10:10:15] <OndraSter> DAMN, the NiosII programming software is... Eclipse :(
[10:12:24] <Steffanx> So what?
[10:16:11] <specing> And just when you thought it was awesome ... eclipse.
[10:16:34] <specing> Actually, eclipse seems to be the best IDE out there
[10:18:19] <Steffanx> No, people say Eclipse is shit… so Eclipse is shit
[10:20:48] <specing> I found it quite fine when I had to do android dev
[10:52:29] <OndraSter> specing, ever tried visual studio?
[10:52:29] <OndraSter> :P
[10:52:32] <OndraSter> eclipse is terrible
[10:55:06] <specing> Anyway, vim ftw
[11:00:23] <ureif> vim! lol.
[11:00:27] <ureif> ed ftw
[11:02:21] <specing> I bet you are IRCing from a pdpx
[11:03:05] <ureif> nope.
[11:03:17] <ureif> I'm on a toggle switch connected to my ethernet cable.
[11:04:17] <specing> I knew it was something similar
[11:27:24] <jadew> any idea what's a led's response time?
[11:27:30] <jadew> on and off?
[11:28:44] <specing> fast enaugh
[11:29:18] <jadew> for what?
[11:30:26] <jadew> can it do 20khz?
[11:33:31] <OndraSter> yes
[11:33:39] <OndraSter> but you won't see it :)
[11:33:57] <jadew> I know, I can't see it past 45 or so
[11:34:04] <jadew> gonna try something
[11:34:20] <OndraSter> yeah. But watch out for capacitance of the solder joints and what not, they can change it dramatically
[11:34:35] <OndraSter> although 20kHz is not that much
[11:42:27] <buzzsaw> good morning.
[11:43:30] <OndraSter> mornin
[11:44:25] <buzzsaw> I have a devise that works on 3.3v and I want to run two different power supplies (for a backup when one dies) I have a 12v battery and plan on using a 7803 to drop to three volts and then I have a plain old 3.3v sourse.
[11:44:33] <buzzsaw> could someone point me in the right direction?
[11:45:15] <buzzsaw> The idea is that the 12v battery will run for a lot longer and will be intermitantly charged. the 3.3v power will act as a backup
[11:47:41] <jadew> well, either my photoresistor doesn't do very well or the led doesn't have such a great response time
[12:07:28] <asteve_> buzzsaw: what part are you missing? the circuitry?
[12:17:28] <nickoe> Hello. Hmmm.... when I list all the ATmega644's that RS components have..., what is the PDIP W package? http://dk.rs-online.com/web/c/?searchTerm=atmega644&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&view-type=List&applied-dimensions=4294880316&lastAttributeSelectedBlock=4294957420&sort-option=Pris
[12:18:57] <OndraSter> Plastic Dual In Package Wide probably?
[12:19:17] <OndraSter> wait, what is that window for?
[12:19:32] <nickoe> yes...
[12:19:46] <nickoe> But what is a wide PDIP, I have newer seen that before
[12:20:03] <nickoe> maybe it is a program only once thing
[12:20:22] <OndraSter> abcminiuser_, heya dude, any tips about that? :)
[12:20:24] <OndraSter> ^
[12:20:34] <nickoe> It is half the price
[12:23:35] <abcminiuser_> nickoe, it's wider than usual
[12:23:58] <nickoe> abcminiuser_, okay. How did you find out?
[12:24:01] <abcminiuser_> DIPs are usually in two widths, the "standard" width for NES555 chips and the like
[12:24:11] <abcminiuser_> And the double-wide for big-ass processors and such
[12:24:24] <abcminiuser_> nickoe, I just know, I've used PDIP MEGAs before
[12:25:00] <nickoe> yes.. but the other one: http://dk.rs-online.com/web/p/mikrokontroller/7380489/ is that relly a slim one like on the arduino uno?
[12:25:12] <nickoe> Else it is a very lon chip
[12:25:22] <abcminiuser_> Not sure, check the datasheet
[12:25:29] <abcminiuser_> A "fat" PDIP looks like the big one here: http://spatulatzar.com/nes/socket.jpg
[12:25:44] <abcminiuser_> Skinny one is at the top of that picture
[12:25:53] <OndraSter> arduino has the slim one
[12:25:59] <nickoe> Yes, that is the standard size of a atmega644.
[12:26:24] <nickoe> But I cannot believe that the other ones on the list i sent was the "fat" types..
[12:27:46] <nickoe> abcminiuser_, and OndraSter I will be afk for a while, I was just called upon to eat :)
[12:28:00] <OndraSter> I just grabbed dinner as well
[12:28:03] <OndraSter> bon apetit
[12:32:56] <learningc> why use pdip anymore these days??
[12:33:17] <learningc> aren't we in the BGA era already?
[12:47:31] <nickoe> i am bacjk
[12:49:04] <nickoe> learningc, well yes, but when size is no issue and you put other newbies to work, it is good to use pdips
[12:52:03] <vectory_> we are in the 64 bit era, too, except in here and some places
[12:52:24] <OndraSter> learningc, BGA :P
[12:56:36] <asteve_> 64bits, except when it's 8 and 16 bits!
[12:58:27] <learningc> vectory_: sounds like we are still backward :/
[12:59:38] <specing> Mine calculator has a 4-bit CPU in it :D
[12:59:44] <specing> s/Mine/My/
[13:00:35] <nickoe> What is the difference between a ATMEGA644P-20PU and a ATMEGA644-20PU? The one does not have a P before -20PU
[13:00:52] <specing> probably picopower
[13:02:37] <nickoe> ahh, that might be true
[13:07:08] <nickoe> specing, what about A? and V?
[13:07:20] <vectory_> A is revision A
[13:07:28] <vectory_> bit improved
[13:08:41] <nickoe> I guess V is very low power, and L is just lowpower, does that seem correct?
[13:08:47] <nickoe> vectory_, okay
[13:09:08] <vectory_> i dont know
[13:09:51] <nickoe> vectory_, why is theese half the price then? http://dk.rs-online.com/web/c/?searchTerm=atmega644&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&view-type=List&applied-dimensions=4294880316&lastAttributeSelectedBlock=4294957420&sort-option=Pris
[13:10:00] <nickoe> The A models
[13:10:44] <vectory_> dont ask me
[13:10:58] <vectory_> i would say theres fewer silicon in it, which is most likely wrong
[13:11:57] <nickoe> Soy you actually say that they may have fixed some silicon bugs and made the crystal smaller
[13:11:58] <nickoe> :/
[13:15:20] <vectory_> no, i am not saying that, im sayig i would say that if i wouldnt doubt its correctness
[13:25:26] <Tom_L> BGA SSD with 3 Gbit SATA interface: http://www2.electronicproducts.com/SSD_IC_uses_SLC_NAND_SATA_interface-article-ICDJH08_May2012-html.aspx
[13:26:06] <Tom_L> 17 x 17 mm
[13:28:00] <nickoe> Tom_L, what is the market for such a thing?
[13:28:03] <nickoe> ;)
[13:28:32] <Tom_L> imbedded control
[13:28:34] <Tom_L> silly
[13:28:52] <Tom_L> wood batteries
[13:28:53] <Tom_L> http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Wooden_batteries_A_solution_to_sustainable_electricity-article-fajb_wooden_batteries_april2012-html.aspx
[13:43:28] <buzzsaw> asteve_ yes, I am a programmer by trade and am just learning the electronics part
[13:43:49] <asteve_> a circuit to cut out and switch to a secondary battery is pretty trick
[13:44:01] <asteve_> you'll need a thermistor and a couple of diodes for your drop
[14:02:39] <Casper> buzzsaw: there is 2 main ways to do what you want to do: use 2 diodes and use an higher voltage for the powersupply... as in batt -> diode -> 7803 14+V -> diode -> 7803 the one with the highest voltage win. Another way would be to have a 13.65V current limited powersupply, that go to your 12V battery, that power your load. This will float charge your battery while powering your load
[14:03:50] <Casper> buzzsaw: a simple way is a lm317 set to 13.65V well heatsinked, with a 16+V power source able to deliver atleast 1.5A, ideally a bit more
[14:05:05] <Casper> you get a few advantage this way: your battery will always be full, no need to remember to charge it, it also filter more the power and provide a zero switch over time and no big line drop when the power goes out
[14:06:10] <Casper> buzzsaw: I would personally consider to use a switch mode regulator for 12 to 3.3V
[14:07:56] <Casper> buzzsaw: the lm317 have the advantage of being current limited and have thermal protection and bla bla bla... basically almost bulletproof
[14:08:56] <learningc> buzzsaw: for what max current?
[14:12:57] <Casper> learningc: I assume it's bellow 1A since he want to use a 7803
[14:14:30] <learningc> Casper: he could get a smps that fits on no more than 1cm sqr of pcb
[14:27:33] <RikusW> 1cm2 ?!
[14:28:52] <OndraSter> waaat, 7803 exists? I never saw anything below 7805 :o)
[14:30:32] <RikusW> I've got some LD1117S33CTR's
[14:30:56] <RikusW> RS part number 686-9388
[14:31:16] <OndraSter> oh 1117-3.3 sure
[14:31:21] <OndraSter> but not under regular 7803 name :)
[14:32:44] <RikusW> its really cheap
[14:32:59] <RikusW> less than E0.20
[14:36:43] <learningc> RikusW: yes, 3mm sqr for the ic, 4mm sqr for inductor, a bunch of 1206 ceramic caps and 0402 resistors
[14:43:31] <RikusW> thats really small
[14:44:01] <RikusW> 0402 would be tricky to solder ?
[14:44:19] <RikusW> I did some 0603, it not too bad
[14:44:48] <OndraSter> never tried to manually solder 0402
[15:01:30] <RikusW> 1cm2 = 100mm2 ;)
[15:09:27] <OndraSter> RikusW, that'S what she said
[15:09:29] <OndraSter> :D
[15:09:47] <learningc> who is the she?
[15:17:10] <vectory_> yo mama
[15:17:23] <RikusW> 3mm2 for the ic or 30mm2 ?
[15:18:14] <RikusW> 1206 = 4.5mm2
[15:19:45] <OndraSter> more like 4x4mm = 16mm2
[15:22:53] <buzzsaw> thanks for the advise. and yes you can get a 7803 on digikey and mouser both
[15:44:08] <learningc> RikusW: sorry, 3mm side so 9mm sqr
[15:45:09] <learningc> RikusW: if I had a camera I could show you, but it's not with me right now
[15:47:05] <OndraSter> phone :)
[17:26:46] <gkwhc> Hi, I am looking at this USB SD card reader IC (http://www.smsc.com/media/Downloads_Public/Data_Sheets/224x.pdf) and it has SD_DAT lines from 0-7. but SD pinout only has DAT0-3! any ideas?
[17:27:26] <j4cbo> it's designed for cards other than SD too
[17:28:07] <gkwhc> j4cbo: right, but even mmc interface doesnt have DAT7
[17:29:28] <gkwhc> i am looking at 2241, which only has SD/MMC and MS
[17:46:05] <mitsakos> hello, i'm looking for master in computer hardware engineering in USA do you have any info?
[17:51:38] <ircWALK> hi
[17:51:39] <ircWALK> do scientific calculators, like this one http://static.electricswarehouse.com/images/Products/casio4.jpg , typically come with a reprogrammable OS? or is it on some ROM?
[17:51:59] <tosmo> i looked into atomic operations, namely cli(); atomic expr; sei(). i found discussions about whether this actually works or might break due to code reordering by the compiler. does anyone know more about this? especially how to be actually sure the operation is atomic?
[17:53:25] <Kevin`> ircWALK: if it's a newer design it's probably flash, but you won't have any documentation to go on
[17:56:11] <ircWALK> kevin: does that mean its psosible if somebody has the skills?
[17:56:28] <ircWALK> how hard would it be to reprogram to do some simple extra stuff; like store+upload text; if theres no documentation to go on ?
[17:56:44] <Kevin`> why bother?
[17:57:03] <Kevin`> there's other devices that you would have no problems doing that with
[17:58:16] <Kevin`> hard, anyway, if it's even programmable
[18:01:08] <OndraSter> why? Because he wants to store cheat sheats :P
[18:02:06] <ircWALK> lol
[18:02:14] <ircWALK> why hasn't somebdoy made a calculator like that i have no idea
[18:02:25] <ircWALK> ive had about 400 people ask me for one over the cour seo fmy life
[18:02:27] <ircWALK> all willing to pay about 1k$
[18:02:28] <kline> ircWALK: they do, and they are banned
[18:03:00] <ircWALK> are they sold on the internet?
[18:03:02] <ircWALK> im just curious
[18:03:18] <ircWALK> becuase im the sort of person that owuld know about them if thye existed. and nobody has ever told me about anything existing like that
[18:03:30] <ircWALK> unless they are sold verrrrrry privately on the underground. and not in the uk
[18:03:31] <OndraSter> I heard that they exist
[18:03:40] <kline> most graphing calculator or programmable calculator...
[18:03:44] <OndraSter> that was in the 9600 baud RS232 days
[18:03:54] <kline> like the ones with basic or asm coding
[18:03:59] <ircWALK> yea but most grpahical calculators arne't allowed in examinations. scientific calculators with small screens are
[18:04:14] <OndraSter> time to make small projector then! :P
[18:04:32] <OndraSter> or high resolution small display
[18:04:50] <ircWALK> doesn't even need ot be that high resolution imo
[18:05:19] <OndraSter> you need about 5 pixels for readable letters
[18:05:23] <OndraSter> height
[18:05:47] <OndraSter> now you need probably a lot more than 2 lines
[18:06:01] <ircWALK> my current scientific calculator can already do that
[18:06:14] <ircWALK> when i press the menu button, there is plenty of characters that are shown on the screen in order for the user to choose the apporopriate mode
[18:06:29] <ircWALK> it definately can display 4 lines of text
[18:06:37] <ircWALK> cant remember how many characters on each line tohgh
[18:07:21] <kline> casio fx-85 displays an image on startup
[18:08:26] <ircWALK> ye. so displaying the text on the screen is not a possible. calculators already have specs to do that. all that needs to be done is the ability to store text and display it
[18:08:36] <ircWALK> a few extra other features would be handy too
[18:08:47] <ircWALK> you think anybody on freelancer would be able to foind a calculator that can do this?
[18:08:56] <ircWALK> (reprogammable)
[18:09:35] <OndraSter> dude, usually calculators nowadays contain that classic big black blob
[18:09:38] <OndraSter> and.. that is it
[18:09:51] <OndraSter> maybe some supernew ones might have some ARM chip inside
[18:09:55] <OndraSter> or super low power MSP430
[18:11:07] <ircWALK> how hard is it to make your own big black blob and connect it to the exisiting case/buttons etc?
[18:11:23] <OndraSter> those big blobs are the ICs without pins themselves..
[18:11:28] <OndraSter> just the die
[18:11:35] <OndraSter> a lot actually
[18:11:44] <OndraSter> you'd be having hard time fitting anything in it
[18:12:13] <ircWALK> :/ and how hard would it be to create a scientific calculator that does osmethingl ike this from scratch?
[18:12:21] <OndraSter> :)
[18:12:26] <OndraSter> #1 problem would be chassis
[18:12:33] <OndraSter> making it look like ordinary calculator
[18:12:46] <ircWALK> maybe not from scratch, maybe you could use the case of another calculator? and the buttons etc..
[18:12:52] <ircWALK> but completely remake the insides
[18:13:04] <OndraSter> good luck with that
[18:13:27] <ircWALK> im not going to do it myself. i would pay somebody
[18:13:36] <OndraSter> oh :D
[18:13:43] <ircWALK> but that seems alot more feasable/cheaper than making the whole chassis yourself
[18:16:01] <OndraSter> you should stop watching CSI :D :D
[19:12:26] <ircWALK> is there any way of making use of free electricity, to turn it into money somehow?
[19:12:48] <Landon> o.O
[19:27:52] <rue_house> ircWALK, it would take a lot of work to make an electrical plant that could generate enough power to counterfit money
[19:34:08] <learningc> electricity isn't really free
[19:35:27] <learningc> the only free electricity you can get is in the air
[19:36:08] <learningc> but unusable for practical purpose
[20:30:09] <Kevin`> ircWALK: how do you have free electricity?
[20:30:49] <Kevin`> ircWALK: the simplest thing to do would be to sell it to the local power utility
[20:31:05] <Casper> ircWALK: the problem is that all of the means of making money using electricity... would all cost more in investissement than what you will get in return
[22:39:21] <CarterA> How do I enable use of the atmega328p in AVR Studio 5?
[22:39:36] <Tom_itx> for what?
[22:39:42] <Tom_itx> programming or making a project?
[22:39:47] <CarterA> Programming.
[22:39:52] <Tom_itx> hold on
[22:43:04] <Tom_itx> what programmer do you have?
[22:43:40] <CarterA> Olimex AVR ISP mkii
[22:44:10] <Tom_itx> ahh yet another clone
[22:44:24] <CarterA> ...sorry.
[22:44:49] <Tom_itx> i feel robbed in some way
[22:44:59] <Tom_itx> start studio
[22:45:10] <Tom_itx> Tools menu
[22:45:16] <Tom_itx> avr programming
[22:45:31] <Tom_itx> 'Tool' select the programmer
[22:45:36] <CarterA> Yeah, that's where I am
[22:45:47] <CarterA> And then the device menu doesn't list the mega328p
[22:46:02] <Tom_itx> 'Device' select atmega328p
[22:46:17] <Tom_itx> then 'apply'
[22:46:47] <inflex> Tom_itx: I agree on feeling robbed
[22:46:54] <CarterA> Why would the mega328p not be listed in the menu?
[22:46:59] <Tom_itx> it is
[22:47:03] <Tom_itx> on mine
[22:47:15] <Tom_itx> and i have both studio 5 and 5.1
[22:47:33] <Tom_itx> maybe you need an update
[22:47:36] <CarterA> Well I'm on 5.1
[22:47:45] <Tom_itx> it should be there for sure then
[22:47:54] <CarterA> Do I need to enable it?
[22:48:02] <Tom_itx> lemme boot up 5.1
[22:48:10] <Tom_itx> it should be there
[22:48:31] <Tom_itx> see, i had the first clone and the design was stolen
[22:48:51] <Casper> why feeling robbed?
[22:49:23] <CarterA> OK, so if I select the simulator then it lists the atmega329p
[22:49:26] <CarterA> *328
[22:49:33] <CarterA> So it's a problem with the programmer.
[22:49:33] <Tom_itx> the 328 and the 328p are both there
[22:49:47] <Tom_itx> my programmer shows all of them
[22:50:48] <Tom_itx> Casper, i've just got a feeling
[22:54:01] <Tom_itx> CarterA
[22:54:09] <CarterA> Yeah?
[22:54:10] <Tom_itx> their website says it supports the 328
[22:54:14] <CarterA> Yep.
[22:54:15] <Tom_itx> and P
[22:55:26] <Tom_itx> what chip are they using in the programmer?
[22:55:52] <CarterA> Dunno.
[22:57:28] <Tom_itx> well pry it open and see
[22:58:49] <Casper> Tom_itx: is the mkii yours?
[22:59:04] <Tom_itx> the one i made is
[22:59:19] <Tom_itx> and helped dean prove his code out for it
[22:59:51] <Tom_itx> some austrian company stole the design and practically copied my webpage verbatum
[23:00:22] <Casper> and you didn't tried to sue?
[23:00:26] <Tom_itx> the of course denied it but they did add credit on their page for dean
[23:00:44] <Tom_itx> now just how would you go about suing a foreign comany?
[23:01:15] <Casper> true
[23:01:40] <Casper> but
[23:01:51] <Casper> you should be proud that it wasn't a chinese compagny :D
[23:02:10] <Tom_itx> now there are several out there
[23:02:29] <Casper> this is the problem with those small things...
[23:02:35] <Casper> it's not worth to sue anyway
[23:02:45] <Metalsutton> Guess what everyone?
[23:02:58] <Tom_itx> well someone asked me early on to post the schematic so i did briefly
[23:03:02] <Casper> Metalsutton: you're drunk?
[23:03:06] <Metalsutton> More circuit problems!
[23:03:19] <Tom_itx> until i figured out that it appeared in one of their magazines
[23:03:29] <Tom_itx> i told the magazine to pull it off their site
[23:04:59] <Casper> did they?
[23:05:11] <Tom_itx> yeah but the damage was done
[23:05:46] <Tom_itx> i found a few other references to it where ppl were hacking their own
[23:06:12] <Casper> the sad part is that it might even be your code that is in there
[23:06:23] <Tom_itx> well the code is open source
[23:06:37] <Tom_itx> all they need to do is give dean credit for it
[23:06:53] <Casper> which most probably did not
[23:07:06] <Tom_itx> not until we called them on it
[23:07:23] <Casper> atleast they did put the reference...
[23:07:29] <Metalsutton> I recenly made a usb circuit that i didnt drill some holes in. I hooked it up and realized that part of the circuit was heating up. I quickly disconnected it. However now wheb i plug it in it does notdetect as anything is plugged in in windows
[23:07:55] <Tom_itx> Metalsutton sounds like it's too late
[23:08:15] <Metalsutton> I am wondering what usualy goes first? The mcu wasnt plugged in.
[23:08:38] <Metalsutton> It think it was the reversed diodes
[23:11:04] <Tom_itx> maybe you should have a polyfuse on it
[23:11:44] <Casper> Metalsutton: what goes on first depend on the circuit and what happened
[23:11:52] <Casper> can be anything and everything
[23:12:01] <Casper> sometime it's the traces that burn up
[23:12:04] <Casper> sometime it's a resistor
[23:12:12] <Casper> or a transistor or diode or IC...
[23:12:37] <Metalsutton> There would be phyisical evidence of traces thouh?
[23:12:50] <Casper> some parts are almost bullet proof, yet another "model" is more fragile than a gold sheet
[23:14:39] <Metalsutton> Does a conditutivy test pick up on dead parts?
[23:15:13] <Casper> not always, and can give false positive
[23:15:20] <Casper> and also some false negative
[23:21:58] <Metalsutton> Hhmmm