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[00:01:36] <learningc> should I use metric or imperial when design pcb layout?
[00:01:55] <serp__> both
[00:02:23] <serp__> and switch between them in an inconsistant manner
[00:04:14] <learningc> really? it make it really difficult
[00:05:33] <serp__> if you will use chips where the pins are aligned to an imperical grid the answer is obvious
[00:05:56] <serp__> ditto for components with a metrical grid
[00:06:46] <serp__> it really doesnt matter on a larger scale
[00:12:55] <theBear> so long as the footprints are right, the layout grid shouldn't really matter
[00:16:24] <learningc> but, I have trouble with grid snapping with component pads on imperial when the grid is in metric and vice-versa
[00:47:54] <CapnKernel> learningc: I use KiCad. What theBear says: Doesn't matter whether you're set to metric or imperial stormtrooper deathmarch theme, when you get near the footprint pin, the trace will snap to it.
[00:49:59] <learningc> CapnKernel: ah ok, mst be different with kicad then
[01:07:15] <TeknoJuce> Hi CapnKernel
[01:07:37] <CapnKernel> TeknoJuce: Hi there
[01:07:47] <TeknoJuce> How is China treating you?
[01:08:41] <TeknoJuce> or are you back now
[01:10:16] <CapnKernel> I leave China for HK tomorrow.
[01:12:11] <TeknoJuce> have you got everything setup?
[01:13:09] <theBear> isn't HK the capital of China ?
[01:14:40] <CapnKernel> No, should be packing stuff up today
[01:14:46] <CapnKernel> theBear: Troll alert
[01:15:05] <theBear> who me ? seriously ?
[01:15:19] <theBear> Hongkong ?
[01:15:21] <CapnKernel> You're not trolling?
[01:15:26] <theBear> i don't do that
[01:15:36] <CapnKernel> The capital of China is Beijing.
[01:15:36] <theBear> it holds zero attraction for me
[01:15:53] <CapnKernel> Well me too, which is why I fall hard when people do it.
[01:16:03] <theBear> heh, yeah, i know that feeling
[01:16:19] <CapnKernel> HK is some land attached to China's rump, which the British leased, but which has now passed back to China control.
[01:16:34] <theBear> wow, something new every day
[01:16:36] <CapnKernel> In the same way as company A might buy out company B, but then not
[01:16:45] <CapnKernel> but then allow company B to continue operating independently
[01:16:50] <CapnKernel> That's what China does with HK.
[01:16:56] <theBear> fairynuff
[01:17:02] <CapnKernel> It's under China's control, but HK is run independently.
[01:17:24] <CapnKernel> Very smart of China to do that, because if they messed with HK, the people with money would run a mile and it would be a ghost town.
[01:18:18] <TeknoJuce> I didnt know that either! neat factos, any more?
[01:18:57] <theBear> hehe, a whale has the biggest (closest) penis to bodyweight ratio on the planet
[01:19:04] <theBear> that's my only random fact for today
[01:20:01] <TeknoJuce> stop watching animal planet and turn on the porn
[01:22:59] <theBear> err, they're one and the same <grin> nah, i known that for years
[01:24:38] <TeknoJuce> haha Sooo... anyways I have this Chinese Coin mech with limited chingrish instructions which has a White wire labeled as Coin and a gray wire labeled as counter and a terrible MSPaint diagram of how to connect a Electromagnetic counter to it via the 12V line and the gray line but when I do nothing happens so I put the scope on the white wire and can see pulses per coin I toss in to the mech but on the gray wire I seem to see nothing
[01:25:18] <TeknoJuce> This is the coin meter counter
http://www.kep.com/catalog/ii/pdf/KE610.pdf
[01:26:05] <TeknoJuce> the manual says nothing about the counter and only has this drawing
[01:27:26] <TeknoJuce> https://skydrive.live.com/#cid=54CE46589EFC4437&id=54CE46589EFC4437%21773
[01:28:50] <TeknoJuce> I am also a n00b to scopes as I just got it and my limit of operation so far is pulse related on/off relations
[01:30:46] <TeknoJuce> when I tap the coin meter counter on the 12v line and gnd the counter does one click until you let go and tap it again
[01:31:05] <TeknoJuce> so looks like its in working order :S
[01:33:08] <TeknoJuce> this is the full manual
https://skydrive.live.com/#!/view.aspx?cid=54CE46589EFC4437&resid=54CE46589EFC4437%21772
[01:51:43] <Roklobsta> capn: so you're pretty much locke dout of doing business in china?
[01:53:47] <nevyn> Bejing hates the whole push for democracy.. but loves the HARD $$$
[01:55:01] <Roklobsta> hmm, i heard on the radio there is a power struggle in the Party between the little mao book thumpers and the liberal.
[01:55:02] <Roklobsta> s
[01:55:51] <learningc> eventually china will become democratic someday
[01:56:03] <nevyn> but not today.
[01:56:07] <learningc> just a matter of time
[01:56:12] <nevyn> and not tomorrow either.
[01:56:39] <learningc> eventually after many tomorrows.
[01:56:46] <nevyn> the way china actually works and the way the party think it works arn't terribly well aligned either
[01:56:56] <nevyn> it's sad
[01:57:39] <nevyn> I love the idea of efficiency of central planning but in all cases I've seen the data isn't accurate enough to do it even vaguely well
[01:58:06] <CapnKernel> China will not become a democracy, ever.
[01:58:26] <nevyn> probably not.
[01:58:29] <nevyn> will hk tho
[01:58:58] <CapnKernel> Democracy is a first-world concept
[01:59:15] <nevyn> and not a terribly good one.
[01:59:16] <CapnKernel> First-world living is predicated on the availability of cheap energy, in particular, oil.
[01:59:38] <CapnKernel> Take that away, and first world existence disappears overnight
[01:59:48] <CapnKernel> We are rapidly heading to that point.
[02:01:08] <CapnKernel> In feudal times, villages were more or less independent. If one village disappeared, it wouldn't have that much effect on the next.
[02:01:44] <nevyn> mmm
[02:01:46] <CapnKernel> Now, every sector of the economy is linked to every other sector. One sector goes down, the rest go down too
[02:01:49] <CapnKernel> Systemic failure
[02:02:07] <CapnKernel> Take away oil, and transport and distribution collapses
[02:02:13] <nevyn> there are lots of things I like about transport
[02:02:18] <nevyn> and cheap energy
[02:02:29] <nevyn> let me think for a bit.
[02:02:40] <CapnKernel> 40% of the world's oil goes into agriculture. The world can only carry 7b people because of that 40$.
[02:03:05] <CapnKernel> Take away the 40%, the world's carrying capacity suddenly becomes 1.5b not 7b
[02:03:38] <CapnKernel> We've built our lives around plastic. No oil, no plastic
[02:04:13] <CapnKernel> No oil, no farm machinery. No grain. No animals fed on grain.
[02:04:16] <CapnKernel> Flow on effects
[02:04:23] <CapnKernel> Could get hard to find a burger.
[02:05:15] <CapnKernel> the problem is that this problem is just so awful to comprehend, that it's human nature to deny it will happen
[02:05:25] <mrfrenzy> CapnKernel: all very true
[02:05:26] <CapnKernel> For example, "Technology will save us"
[02:05:42] <mrfrenzy> I recommend peopel watching chris martensons crash course
[02:05:53] <mrfrenzy> he sums it all up and explains the logic very well
[02:06:00] <CapnKernel> There have been examples where we caught a problem early enough, and were able to retool. The move away from CFCs is a very good example
[02:06:05] <CapnKernel> But retooling takes capital
[02:06:19] <mrfrenzy> as I see it, Fusion energy *might* save us, if it gets ready before oil is way too expensive
[02:06:27] <CapnKernel> The roll-out of any tech innovation requires capital, even if it's a rocking idea that is ready today
[02:06:38] <CapnKernel> capital depends on functioning financial markets
[02:06:54] <mrfrenzy> but it's not just oil, we are runnig out of other raw materials like copper, aluminum etc
[02:07:11] <CapnKernel> But when whole segments of our economy, which are highly leveraged on this cheap energy thing, fall off, the markets will collapse
[02:07:23] <CapnKernel> So therefore, no capital for tech rollouts
[02:08:28] <CapnKernel> The vast majority of economic sectors are only viable if oil is below a certain price. Of course for each sector, that price is different, but the price is there, none-the-less.
[02:08:34] <mrfrenzy> the politicians are finally beginning to realize, and putting money into energy replacements
[02:08:36] <CapnKernel> Distribution networks is perhaps the easiest to see
[02:08:56] <mrfrenzy> also, lots of private investor realise the huge profit to make if they get a good patent in this area
[02:09:04] <CapnKernel> If it costs you more to fill your truck than you can get from carrying a load, well you walk away from your business.
[02:09:07] <CapnKernel> Easy to see
[02:09:21] <CapnKernel> That's a first order connection.
[02:09:31] <CapnKernel> But there are second- and third- order connections
[02:09:49] <mrfrenzy> well it's not quite that drastic, since the same goes for all truckers, everyone will increase their prices
[02:09:51] <CapnKernel> Supermarkets need distribution, so they also have viability decided by oil
[02:09:57] <CapnKernel> Construction industry
[02:10:12] <CapnKernel> Ok, say everyone increases their prices.
[02:10:24] <mrfrenzy> food in supermarkets will get more expensive ofcourse
[02:10:34] <CapnKernel> Either people demand more in order to pay for it, and you get runaway inflation, or people just don't have the money to pay for it.
[02:10:39] <mrfrenzy> our economy based on logaritmich growth will slow to a halt
[02:10:53] <nevyn> so some things about rocketry get easier in a post distribution economy but lots get harder.
[02:11:00] <CapnKernel> But it's worse: That price increase is not linear
[02:11:00] <mrfrenzy> we need a different system of econom that doesn't collapse without growth
[02:11:12] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: YES
[02:11:18] <nevyn> eg. getting rockets and the advanced materials like fiberglass and carbonfiber and phenolic
[02:11:21] <nevyn> is harder
[02:11:41] <nevyn> but.. less air travel means less air routes means less airospace regulation
[02:11:48] <nevyn> which makes things easier
[02:11:51] <mrfrenzy> CapnKernel: the problem is, bank owners and investors etc will fight HARD to prevent that, and they are the ones funding political campaigns
[02:12:23] <CapnKernel> The price the supermarket sells stuff to you, is dependent on being able to get economy of scale. If demand for supermarket products halves, they can't run like they used to. You won't see a doubling in prices, you will see that supermarkets would need to charge 150x, and of course they won't do that,. so like the truck driver, they'll walk away
[02:12:34] <CapnKernel> Nobody wants to be the first to admit the party's over.
[02:13:07] <mrfrenzy> I think it will go back from supermarkets to small shops in ever little corner
[02:13:36] <mrfrenzy> since also people won't afford to be driving to the supermarkets
[02:14:00] <mrfrenzy> the scary thing is, 90% of the people on the street would think you and I are crazy
[02:14:08] <mrfrenzy> I'm certain this will happen within 50 years
[02:14:27] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: I'm certain it will happen within 5.
[02:15:01] <mrfrenzy> I'd say that's possible, but not likely
[02:15:10] <CapnKernel> why?
[02:15:11] <mrfrenzy> it will be interesting for sure ;)
[02:15:24] <CapnKernel> I'm sure you know what the peak oil phenomenon is
[02:15:29] <CapnKernel> A bell curve of production
[02:15:30] <mrfrenzy> ooh yes
[02:15:54] <CapnKernel> Graph this next to world population, and remember that 40% of that oil goes into agriculture
[02:16:01] <mrfrenzy> but I think it will be a little less steeper on the downturn than on the upturn
[02:16:16] <mrfrenzy> because of the high price, producers will try to squeeze every last drop out
[02:16:46] <CapnKernel> The exponential graph of world population is quite similar to the left hand side of the production bell curve
[02:16:53] <Valen> at $100 a barrel tar sands are viable, there are more tar sands in the USA than oil in saudi arabia
[02:17:01] <CapnKernel> The problem is when the bell curve turns around
[02:17:21] <mrfrenzy> isn't world population slowing growth down, because of 1-child policies, education in third world etc
[02:17:21] <Valen> not saying oil or over population are good things
[02:17:24] <Valen> but still
[02:17:34] <CapnKernel> In general, price reflects the difference between supply and demand.
[02:17:42] <CapnKernel> That's basic economic theory
[02:18:08] <CapnKernel> Let's assume for a moment (and this is very rough) that demand for oil is more or less proportional to population
[02:18:58] <CapnKernel> What you have after the tipping point is a situation where the gap between supply (the bell curve) and demand (as modeled by population) starts blowing out by 100s of % per year.
[02:19:14] <Valen> you didn't see what i said about tar sands
[02:19:22] <Valen> there is plenty of "oil"
[02:19:26] <Valen> its just more expensive
[02:19:33] <Valen> oil isn't going to run out
[02:19:37] <CapnKernel> Yes. It's unviable to extract it.
[02:19:40] <Valen> its just going to get spendy
[02:19:43] <CapnKernel> Yes
[02:19:47] <Valen> at $100 a barrel tar sands are viable, there are more tar sands in the USA than oil in saudi arabia
[02:20:04] <CapnKernel> And that's predicated on the ability for industry to pay that amount
[02:20:13] <mrfrenzy> and as it gets more expensive demand goes down, so it kind of self regulates, hence why I say "within 50 years"
[02:20:15] <CapnKernel> Look at the yawning gap between supply and demand
[02:20:21] <Valen> there isn't one
[02:20:24] <mrfrenzy> but we will certainly get to the point when it is too expensive
[02:20:28] <CapnKernel> Huh?
[02:20:32] <Valen> there is no "gap"
[02:20:49] <Valen> if there was a "gap" then people wouldn't be able to fill their cars
[02:20:54] <CapnKernel> Valen:
http://www.oilposter.org/posterlarge.html
[02:21:00] <CapnKernel> See that yellow line?
[02:21:03] <CapnKernel> That's global population.
[02:21:50] <Valen> which is predicted to peak at between 9 and 12bn
[02:21:56] <Valen> not just keep shooting up
[02:22:01] <CapnKernel> There is no gap at present, because to date, population has tracked the left hand side of the bell curve
[02:22:15] <CapnKernel> You're assuming some kind of levelling off
[02:22:32] <CapnKernel> But look at the right hand side, it plummets
[02:22:36] <Valen> well at some point people wont be able to have sex because there will be people in the way
[02:22:41] <Valen> thats their "projection'
[02:23:03] <Valen> i have different projections
[02:23:16] <CapnKernel> And oil exploration and recovery is capital intensive, see back to the point about functioning markets
[02:23:24] <CapnKernel> We've heard about your projections.
[02:23:28] <Valen> do tar sands exist?
[02:23:30] <Valen> yes or no
[02:23:31] <CapnKernel> Yes
[02:23:55] <CapnKernel> You need to spend the energy from about 4 barrels of oil in order to reap one barrel's worth of oil.
[02:23:59] <Valen> so?
[02:24:04] <CapnKernel> It's highly energy and capital intensive
[02:24:08] <Valen> and?
[02:24:19] <CapnKernel> Not to mention it produces huge amounts of CO2
[02:24:26] <Valen> beside the point
[02:24:31] <Valen> i haven't said its bad
[02:24:33] <Valen> bah
[02:24:36] <Valen> havent said its good
[02:24:39] <Valen> its not a good thing
[02:24:45] <Valen> but its what will happen
[02:25:04] <CapnKernel> Remind me again, what will happen?
[02:25:11] <CapnKernel> (I'll tell you why it won't)
[02:25:33] <Valen> when sucking oil out of the ground is harder than tar sands, people will use tar sands
[02:25:51] <Valen> when thats too hard, they will use coal as a feedstock
[02:25:57] <CapnKernel> People will only do tar sands if there is a market which is willing to pay for the result
[02:26:03] <Valen> which they are
[02:26:12] <Valen> market pays $100 a barrel now
[02:26:18] <Valen> tar sands can be done for that price
[02:26:25] <CapnKernel> With a healthy economy, yes
[02:26:36] <Valen> tar sands are being done for that price
[02:26:55] <CapnKernel> But when parts of the economy start dropping off, because many parts of the economy are extremely sensitive to oil price, then it's a different story
[02:29:37] <Valen> the parts of the economy involved in ripping stuff out of the ground will do just fine
[02:29:41] <CapnKernel> Go read about cascading failure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure
[02:30:05] <Valen> because people will pay pretty much any price for oil
[02:30:11] <CapnKernel> If those parts of the economy were independent (see what I said earlier about feudal villages), then I'd agree. Sadly, they're not independent
[02:30:24] <CapnKernel> Valen: Only if they have the means to pay for it
[02:30:34] <CapnKernel> If the price becomes beyond what people can pay, they won't buy it.
[02:30:47] <CapnKernel> And here, we can use people as a metaphor for economic segments.
[02:31:16] <CapnKernel> Will a farmer buy fertilizer (made from oil) if the price of the fertiliser is more than he can make from his crop?
[02:31:35] <CapnKernel> Will he buy diesel for his tractors?
[02:31:42] <Valen> yes, because he will put his prices up and people will buy food instead of their new flatscreen
[02:32:10] <CapnKernel> That's called resilience, and that can absorb some of the effect, but not all, and not even that much
[02:32:44] <Valen> and if you doubled the price of oil, it would be irritating and slow the economy and such but it wouldn't be catastrphic
[02:32:48] <CapnKernel> Take the local vet. When half the farmers are out of business, the vet must put up his prices by 250 percent in order to survive. He can't help but pass on that increase to his customers.
[02:32:53] <CapnKernel> No farmer will pay that.
[02:32:58] <CapnKernel> It is a cascading failure
[02:33:18] <CapnKernel> No, degradation is not linear
[02:33:18] <Valen> you are really keen on the doom and gloom
[02:33:22] <CapnKernel> There's a tipping point
[02:33:28] <Valen> i present a counter argument and you ignore it
[02:33:40] <CapnKernel> Keen implies I get some sort of jollies off it
[02:33:43] <Valen> yes, if you switch off oil then stuff will get messed up
[02:33:53] <Valen> doom gloom etc
[02:34:05] <CapnKernel> I take no pleasure in these ideas
[02:34:18] <Valen> but oil prices have increased immensley over the past even 50 years
[02:34:39] <CapnKernel> Europe and North America, in particular, will be totally fucked, because it freezes over in winter (sorry guys)
[02:34:54] <CapnKernel> Valen: You and I are in perhaps the best possible position: Australia.
[02:34:55] <Valen> and now they are at a level where alternate sources are viable, as such oil price increases should fall
[02:35:03] <CapnKernel> "Our home is girt by sea' and all that. We don't freeze in winter
[02:35:06] <Valen> pfft, australia is worst off
[02:35:32] <Valen> our entire society is decentralised with immense distances the norm from production to consumption
[02:35:39] <Valen> do that without oil
[02:35:40] <nevyn> heh GIRT
[02:35:42] <CapnKernel> Regarding agriculture, Australia produces 5x as much as it consumes
[02:35:51] <CapnKernel> nevyn: Tell me I'm wrong :-)
[02:36:05] <Valen> yes, and on average that production is going to be 500+km from consumption
[02:36:10] <Valen> australia lives on trucks
[02:36:14] <nevyn> it does
[02:36:17] <nevyn> and trains
[02:36:30] <CapnKernel> If we shut our border, then even including the oil lever in agriculture, and effect of climate change, we'd probably have enough to sustain us
[02:36:34] <CapnKernel> If we can solve the distribution problem
[02:36:43] <Valen> trains you could perhaps get around, we have assloads of coal
[02:36:49] <CapnKernel> Yes
[02:36:58] <CapnKernel> But once again, it takes capital to retool
[02:36:59] <Valen> but before that became an issue, you would just turn the coal into oil
[02:37:06] <CapnKernel> Takes capital
[02:37:11] <Valen> petrol might cost $4 a liter but hey
[02:37:22] <Valen> germany did it during WW2 so its not that hard
[02:37:27] <nevyn> CapnKernel: more electrified tracks.
[02:37:27] <Valen> its all carbon chemistry
[02:37:35] <CapnKernel> Large sections of the economy cannot withstand $4 a litre
[02:37:41] <Valen> such as?
[02:37:44] <theBear> but farming (at least here) is VERY competitive these days, ridiculously so.. over the last 20 years a close friend has slowly bought up pretty much ALL the farmable land in and around the tiny town where he grew up on the farm, other farmers have given up and moved on, he's got INSANE amounts of milking cows and hay and giant tractors and modernised efficient milking systems etc etc, and still struggles to keep making enough for him and his mum to li
[02:37:44] <theBear> ve on
[02:37:59] <CapnKernel> theBear: Right
[02:38:13] <CapnKernel> I have a friend with a 600 cow dairy farm, which is operated by his family
[02:38:22] <Valen> theBear: yeah food is stupidly cheap, well untill it hits the supermarket
[02:38:30] <CapnKernel> That kind of efficiency is needed because we don't have agricultural subsidies (not looking at you, EU and USA!)
[02:38:38] <theBear> heh, i forget exactly, my brain is useless this week, but he's up to at least a few thousand head
[02:39:10] <CapnKernel> His farm is incredibly vulnerable to oil pirce
[02:39:11] <theBear> and then he's gotta deal with the limited big milk chains/companies in the state to get a half decent price, AND compete with all the other farmers on that price
[02:39:22] <Valen> its not
[02:39:33] <Valen> if the oil price goes up it does for everybody
[02:39:40] <Valen> everybody puts their prices up
[02:39:40] <CapnKernel> My friend spends $145k/a on fuel
[02:40:00] <Valen> for 600 head? he's doing something wrong
[02:40:19] <theBear> it's like any competitive market, you gotta balance your price against the market and your overheads, and do whatever you can to lower overheads and raise efficiency
[02:40:21] <Valen> 600 is a modest dairy
[02:40:50] <CapnKernel> So if everyone else puts up their price, his grain buy price will go up, as will his fencing materials, rates, every cost he has. Drives him ever closer to the wall
[02:41:04] <CapnKernel> Degradation is not linear, you rapidly approach a point where the only option is to walk away
[02:41:13] <theBear> also he's not cruel to his cows, these days its legal to have something like 2% blood in yer milk, maybe you get a tiny bit more out of each cow, you definately get milking done faster, but my god, the poor cows
[02:41:23] <CapnKernel> Your friend was able to buy up his neighbours only because he outlasted them beyond that point.
[02:41:33] <CapnKernel> And I'm certain he owes large amounts to the bank.
[02:41:35] <theBear> CapnKernel, but all the other farmers are up against that same wall...
[02:41:37] <mrfrenzy> valen keeps talking about coal - that is also a finite resource
[02:41:44] <Valen> so your saying that if oil becomes twice the price then the entire economy will collapse
[02:41:45] <CapnKernel> Once again, built on the existence of capital.
[02:42:01] <Valen> mrfrenzy: we have at least 100 years of coal in easily accessable locations in australia
[02:42:05] <theBear> CapnKernel, and he's a 'smart businessman' and always keeping an eye on any technology kinda things that can help him be more efficient
[02:42:26] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: We have enough coal for hundreds and hundreds of years.
[02:42:33] <theBear> i was shocked to learn that the milk i drink every morning can contain that much blood
[02:42:56] <mrfrenzy> maybe in australia, but not worldwide
[02:42:59] <Valen> that is a significant quantity, though i wonder how much is "normal"
[02:43:09] <Valen> even worldwide there is lots of coal
[02:43:15] <Valen> china has heaps
[02:43:18] <Valen> like really lots
[02:43:24] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: You've walked into the Australian corner - we were considering the case where Australia closes its doors
[02:43:25] <mrfrenzy> you think your coal miners will sell coal cheply to australians when the global price is very high?
[02:43:28] <Valen> usa has buttloads
[02:43:38] <Valen> mrfrenzy: we are a coal exporter
[02:43:44] <CapnKernel> Are we ever...
[02:44:04] <Valen> we export iron ore, and coal to japan then buy back steel ;->
[02:44:15] <mrfrenzy> when oil costs $150 or $200 a barrel, coal prices will be going up
[02:44:19] <nevyn> and yellowcake
[02:44:37] <Valen> there is alot of room for mining more coal
[02:44:38] <theBear> Valen, once again i forget the numbers, but when i mentioned it to him a few years back he said INFINITELY less than that is necaserry, and i mean, i've done the odd milking with him since i was a tiny kid and his dad ran the place, never seen any blood... i mean, if you've ever milked a cow, you know you don't need to draw blood to milk in a reasonable time
[02:45:36] <Valen> theBear: i don't mean they should be dripping blood, but there is blood in saliva and such, i wondered if some blood was a normal part of biology
[02:45:41] <CapnKernel> http://belshaw.blogspot.com/2011/12/galilee-coal-australia-mega.html
[02:45:59] <theBear> for those that don't 'get it' , modern milking machines are basically a few steel tubes with a kinda rubber inner liner attached to a big ass pumping machine... suction makes the rubber thing act in a milking action AND not fall off... you can make the pump go a lot harder than is good for a cow
[02:46:14] <CapnKernel> Good farmers take care of their animals, as they are the major asset of the farm.
[02:46:42] <theBear> Valen, oh like that, coming out of a body no doubt there's some trace amounts, but 2% aint trace amounts, it's basically animal abuse for the sake of i dunno, a few seconds per cow
[02:47:05] <Valen> fairy nuff
[02:47:16] <Valen> the automatic machines are better for all involved anyway
[02:47:17] <theBear> heh this guy does love his animals... he's saved the lives of several cows by mouth to mouth, amongst other methods, whatever is called for
[02:47:32] <Valen> where the cow just walks in and gets itself milked whenever it feels like it
[02:48:07] <theBear> Valen, wow ! i didn't know that existed... at the same time if it's economical, i bet he's gotten it since last i was in the milking shed
[02:48:09] <Valen> my missus grew up on a beef farm, I could handle that, but bugger a dairy
[02:48:27] <Valen> its pretty techy, laser scanners and the like
[02:48:32] <theBear> then again, huge huge area for 1000's of cows, i can't see them all making their own way over, then again, cows aren't that stupid
[02:48:45] <theBear> yeah, i can imagine roughly how you'd approach it
[02:48:51] <Valen> for a farm his size it'd probably be too costly to start
[02:48:59] * nevyn liked beef cattle.
[02:49:16] <Valen> oh include a rfid system and you can then get stats on each udder and check for mastitis etc
[02:49:18] <nevyn> I didn't even hate sheep. but dairy way too much like hard work.
[02:49:40] <Valen> i bet on his property all the cows are lined up at the gate at the time he comes out to do the milking
[02:49:44] <theBear> maybe, at the same time if he DOESN'T occasionally spend insane amounts of money, like when he went from 'normal' tractors to ones with wheels higher than a grown mans head all those years back...
[02:50:07] <Valen> true that
[02:50:11] <theBear> they are, just that some days the gate is a LONG way from the milking shed
[02:50:22] <Valen> they generally get more milk too
[02:50:36] <Valen> some cows get milked 4 or 6 times a day
[02:50:42] <theBear> suppose he's gotta do something during the day other than just fixing fences tho
[02:50:43] <Valen> instead of twice
[02:50:53] <theBear> hmm... i get what yer saying
[02:51:08] <nevyn> floods and fences.. sadtimes
[02:51:44] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hSBXAMapOw is a new one, kinda slow though
[02:51:45] <theBear> heh, it isn't exactly 'don't have showers' droughty here this year, but nothing like floods this side of the country
[02:52:04] <theBear> not sure we ever had more than an ankle deep flood around here
[02:52:25] <theBear> lol robot milker, that
[02:52:25] <Valen> the one i saw had 4 arms with the cups on the ends of each arm, it got attached in like 10 seconds
[02:52:32] <theBear> 's kinda spooky
[02:53:07] <theBear> yeah, if i was making one it'd be like you described more than this, at the same time the one in the vid looks like you could basically just drop it in an existing shed instead of a human
[02:53:37] <Valen> i spose the one arm could also do a bunch of stalls with a track
[02:54:11] <theBear> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=T17GJ7zuTWk hehehe - related video, crazy youtube :)
[02:54:34] <Valen> I've seen some "related" videos
[02:54:34] * theBear giggles to hisself
[02:54:37] <Valen> but not on youtube
[02:54:45] <theBear> heh
[02:54:46] <Valen> ;->
[02:54:59] <theBear> yeah, as the years go on, less and less search terms are safe in this internet of ours :)
[02:55:51] <Valen> combine that arm and one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmHvpXW5iT0&feature=related QED
[02:56:01] <theBear> heh, according to this, it's your internet, not mine anymore ...
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/293630,australian-internet-filter-puts-us-on-surveillance-list.aspx
[02:56:44] <theBear> hehehe,i forgot how funny muppets are, if anything, funnier as an adult :)
[02:57:00] <theBear> maybe not that piggy tho, she's always rubbed me the wrong way
[02:58:29] <theBear> lol "we found a solution to the banana problem" ... "our new electric banana sharpener" "say goodbye forever to dull bananas" :)
[02:59:53] <Valen> any of you guys in a nbn area?
[03:00:11] <theBear> not that i'm aware
[03:00:20] <theBear> and i like to think i'd know :)
[03:00:26] <Valen> http://www.nbnco.com.au/rollout/rollout-map.html?icid=pub:hme:rollout-map:bod:txt
[03:01:47] <theBear> nup, but it looks like i will be soon
[03:02:01] <Valen> pink or yellow?
[03:02:07] <theBear> oh nah, only if i was in a new housing estate
[03:02:26] <theBear> brown C's and pinks, couple yellows nearby
[03:02:28] <Valen> i think thats saying there is a new estate there?
[03:02:54] <Valen> pink means basically should be within 2 years
[03:03:02] <theBear> wireless ? they have wireless faster than adsl2+ ?
[03:03:19] <theBear> oh nah, up close they're all nearer the city
[03:03:20] <Valen> wimax would be faster than my adsl
[03:04:08] <theBear> mmm good point, i never seen more than about 10meg down this side of the country, i dunno what wimax is speed wise
[03:04:22] <Valen> i'm connecting at 5-6mbit :-<
[03:04:35] <Valen> i'm ~1km from the penrith CBD
[03:07:00] <Valen> hopefully getting NBN in 2 years lol
[03:08:30] <theBear> buddy in umm, i think it's technically the border of marrickville now, and before that the back of newtown, has had 20meg+ connections rock solid for years now, lucky bastard accidentally moving into places on the same block as exchanges
[03:08:45] <theBear> i only get 6-7 here 99% of the time
[03:09:07] <theBear> which isn't really that bad considering i'm on the edge of two exchange zones, and a LONG way from both the physical exchanges, even as the crow flies
[03:14:20] <Valen> i'm a long way from the exchange too
[03:14:23] <Valen> just sucks
[03:14:52] <Valen> all the people who blather on about wireless internet instead of NBN then whine about how slow it is and don't put 2 and 2 together
[03:18:24] <theBear> hehe, yeah, people are dumb :)
[03:19:24] <CapnKernel> It's only going to work if you have cells every 50-100 metres
[03:19:42] <CapnKernel> Not that it can't work
[03:19:50] <CapnKernel> But oh my, it's going to be expensive
[03:20:14] <Valen> 3g is a support thing for when your away from home
[03:20:22] <Valen> at home its wifi dammit
[03:21:47] <Valen> ok so optus has released the samsung galaxy note
[03:22:05] <Valen> now i'm making a pricing matrix to work out if i want to buy it from them or get it outright from kogan
[03:22:24] <Valen> in a % term how much better is telstras network than optus
[03:22:27] <Valen> and voda
[03:23:46] <Roklobsta> wimax here gets you 12Mbit.
[03:23:54] <theBear> telstras mobile NETWORK does seem to be pretty solid, at least this side of the country, BUT that doesn't make up for their pricing or long history of crappy net services and hopeless dns servers etc etc
[03:24:26] <theBear> 12mbit ? didn't they promise us 100mbit plus with the nbn ?
[03:24:36] <CapnKernel> And where did this promise come from?
[03:24:45] <theBear> yeah, those monkies i don't trust
[03:24:55] <theBear> Roklobsta, what kinda up speed you get ?
[03:24:57] <Roklobsta> with is with aussiebroadband
[03:25:13] <Roklobsta> i am on an 8Mbit CMUX/ISAM/greencabinet
[03:25:21] <theBear> i mean the wimax there
[03:25:41] <Roklobsta> oh the local Wimax supplier offers 12Mbit and a VoIP phone number
[03:26:09] <theBear> 12mbit symmetrical ? that's not bad i guess
[03:26:34] <Roklobsta> http://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/wimax/plans-and-pricing/
[03:26:58] <Valen> 100mbin on fibre
[03:27:14] <Valen> theBear: i'm mainly after it for wireless interweb
[03:27:29] <Valen> on a galaxy note 5.3" screen "phone" wewt
[03:27:33] <Roklobsta> nbn info truck was in town the other day
[03:27:46] <Roklobsta> the 3 year plan should be released in a few weeks.
[03:28:10] <Roklobsta> i can't wait for my 100/40 FTTP
[03:29:07] <Valen> I'd be ditching my rack space on 100/40
[03:29:32] <Valen> from an IT guy POV 100mbit internet just makes so many cool things possible
[03:29:56] <theBear> it sure does !
[03:30:08] <Valen> live migrate VM's between offices
[03:31:28] <theBear> why migrate when you can just 'use' them at 100m <grin>
[03:32:10] <Roklobsta> i think home servers will be common. host your own damned cloud
[03:32:22] <Roklobsta> i am going to get off gmail soon
[03:32:33] <Roklobsta> DIY webmail
[03:34:15] <Roklobsta> even a 25/5 id' be happy with
[03:41:12] <Valen> live migrate is cool
[03:41:19] <Valen> i want to stick more ram in this server
[03:41:39] <Valen> just move all the virtual machines to another one whilst its running
[03:41:40] <Valen> bonus
[03:41:59] <Valen> then turn the first one off and screw with it
[03:44:02] <Roklobsta> even just being able to do VNC/RDP/NX at those speeds would be terrific
[03:44:12] <Valen> add ipv6
[03:44:17] <Valen> no damn vpns
[04:12:45] <cyanide> folks, i have a question
[04:13:13] <cyanide> im building a circuit which can be powered either via usb 5v or a 12v dc
[04:13:41] <cyanide> the mcu runs on 3.3v so both go to a switch where i can select the voltage source
[04:13:47] <cyanide> which then goes to the vreg
[04:14:10] <cyanide> how can i have usb connectivity even with the circuit being powered by 12v dc?
[04:14:35] <cyanide> will the usb still work if the pc doesn't detect any usage on the 5v line?
[04:15:15] <alexh> no reason it wouldn't, as long as you have the pullup/pulldown on the D line(s)
[04:15:56] <cyanide> and i take it both grounds should be connected?
[04:17:15] <alexh> if you want it to work also usb-powered without having to switch ground (which wouldn't make any sense), yes
[04:17:59] <cyanide> cool
[04:18:04] <cyanide> you are awesome
[04:18:15] <alexh> for usb operation per se you don't need ground strictly speaking, either, as the lines are differential
[04:18:58] <alexh> it'd also be nice not having to manually switch power but having it happen automatically
[04:19:03] <alexh> :)
[04:21:18] <cyanide> how?
[04:32:22] <Tom_itx> is is a usb chip?
[04:32:49] <Tom_itx> part of atmel's usb chips are powered by vbus anyway
[04:33:53] <Tom_itx> and if you select 3.3v it uses an internal reg for the rest of the circuit or you can use an external 3.3v source so you'd need to regulate the 12v down
[04:37:11] <alexh> cyanide: you can use a FET, or one of those fancy-pants ICs (e.g. TPS2111)
[05:17:56] <ziph> The TPS2111 are excellent for that.
[05:18:48] <ziph> They also limit current inrush, but only for the initial ramp up. Switching supplies is done much quicker and it is trivial to set it up to do uninterrupted power swaps.
[07:42:48] <cyanide> i want to use adxl via i2c
[07:42:53] <cyanide> ive connected sda and scl
[07:42:55] <cyanide> what is sdo?
[07:59:17] <rue_house> serial data out usually
[07:59:49] <cyanide> thats not relevant for i2c though
[08:00:47] <rue_house> right, i2c uses a bi-dir data line
[08:56:33] <jyfl987> hi, i have a atmega8-16pu connect to a usb programmer, which connect to my pc, now i have use avrdude to enter the terminal, so how can i display the value of the target register?
[09:08:54] <inflex> ???
[09:08:56] <inflex> which register?
[09:09:52] <jyfl987> from r0 to r31
[09:10:38] <Steffanx> You cannot do that with an external programmer
[09:11:42] <jyfl987> Steffanx: then what about the sram?
[09:12:25] <Steffanx> You need a debugger like a jtagice mkii/3, avr dragon (or clone) to do things like that
[09:13:04] <jyfl987> i dont got that, my board is provided by my boss, and his time is too expensive :[
[09:13:25] <jyfl987> btw, is there any 8bit forth for atmega8?
[09:13:34] <Steffanx> Oh, you cannot do that btw..
[09:13:41] <jyfl987> i found amforth, but it cost 7k flash
[09:13:44] <Steffanx> The mega8 has no debugwire or other debug interface
[09:15:53] <dirty_d> https://mitx_askbot_stage.s3.amazonaws.com/13318186972840924.png
[09:16:03] <dirty_d> how would you find the resistnace seen by that voltage source?
[09:16:13] <jyfl987> and i saw there is a command send , can i send some ins to let the target atmega8 write its value of register to flash and then read from flash?
[09:16:16] <dirty_d> R5 trickifies it
[09:19:51] <jyfl987> Steffanx: which lang do you use for programming on atmega8? asm or c?
[09:19:57] <Steffanx> c
[09:20:19] <jyfl987> Steffanx: is there any turtorial for asm? need with samples
[09:27:29] <raek> dirty_d: use one of the "usual" circuit analysis methods (e.g. node analysis)
[09:28:00] <raek> the ones where you write the KVL equations and stuff
[09:28:15] <dirty_d> yea, but there should be a simpler way to juyst calculate resistances
[09:28:21] <dirty_d> some parallel serial combination
[09:28:26] <dirty_d> nto sure which though
[09:28:26] <raek> but yes, you cannot use shortcut tricks here
[09:28:37] <dirty_d> oh i see
[09:28:55] <raek> those only apply in special (but common) cases
[09:29:25] <raek> also, I can recommend these:
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-002-circuits-and-electronics-spring-2007/video-lectures/
[09:30:29] <raek> hrm, in this case the problem is siplified a bit since you already know the voltages
[09:30:50] <dirty_d> i can use the node method, i just figured there was a shortcut
[09:30:56] <raek> dirty_d: hint: calculate all currents
[09:31:00] <dirty_d> there has to be one
[09:32:12] <raek> oh, it's even simpler
[09:32:31] <raek> you have the current through and the voltage across the whole resistor network
[09:32:35] <raek> use ohm's law
[09:34:29] <dirty_d> im pretending i dont know that
[09:34:35] <dirty_d> im also pretending there is no voltage source
[09:34:49] <dirty_d> this isnt a problem i need to solve, i just saw the picture and i was curious
[09:35:04] <dirty_d> i just care about the resistance
[09:35:08] <dirty_d> not voltage or current
[09:38:29] <raek> well, you can derive the formula for the total resistance of a 5-resistor network like this with the node method... ;-)
[10:05:26] <dirty_d> raek, you cna use a Y-Delta transform
[11:10:16] <CapnKernel> cyanide: Your stuff shipped :-)
[11:46:44] <Tom_itx> wherez my stuff!
[12:08:48] <Steffanx> In china Tom_itx
[12:26:37] <Tom_itx> i hope it left there by noe
[12:26:38] <Tom_itx> now
[12:32:46] <Tom_itx> haha one time newark was cheaper than digikey or mouser
[12:32:51] <Tom_itx> they had a sale
[12:37:03] <budwaa> Hi, when I initialise the output pins on my AVR645 chip the outputs go high briefly to 5V for a few ms. I don't want them to do this but I am not sure what is causing this. Is there some specific order I should carry out the setup of the pins?
[12:38:46] <Kevin`> budwaa: a few ms is quite long, even if you were doing it in the wrong order, you would have to have a LOT of code in between to cause that
[12:39:38] <Kevin`> budwaa: anyway, PORTx sets the output high or low, DDRx sets whether the pins are inputs or outputs. 0 is the default, but if you want it always low, set port to 0 then ddr to 1
[12:41:09] <Kevin`> if whatever an 'avr645' is is one of the newer xmega chips, there's a bunch of other options too for specific situations and behavior
[12:42:27] <budwaa> I set all the output registers to low but it still does it...
[12:43:20] <Kevin`> are you sure it's not being pulled up externally BEFORE the initialization starts? all the pins are hi-z in reset state and most are hiz by default on startup
[12:43:56] <Kevin`> or rather, all on startup and most on reset
[12:43:57] <Kevin`> whatever
[12:44:09] <budwaa> If I put an empty while loop at start of main it doesn't do it,,
[12:46:18] <budwaa> Its definately the DDRD= statement that makes the pin high...
[12:47:30] <Kevin`> so what are you setting PORTD to before that
[12:48:18] <budwaa> 0
[12:48:46] <Kevin`> and what are you setting it too after that that makes the pins go low
[12:49:31] <budwaa> I do PORTD=0 DDRD=PinConfig PORTD=0 and I get a 4ms pulse...
[12:49:36] <Kevin`> PORTD=0;DDRD=0; should not result in the pins high though, you should confirm that first
[12:49:53] <Kevin`> budwaa: 4ms is WAY longer than the time those instructions would take
[12:51:10] <Kevin`> budwaa: you should see something in the order of a 20 microsecond pulse if that was the cause. but it can't be the cause anyway
[12:51:16] <budwaa> If I stop the app after the setup of the pins it still does it..
[12:51:17] <Kevin`> (at 1mhz)
[12:51:34] <budwaa> I do PORTD=0 DDRD=PinConfig PORTD=0 and stop in an empty while loop and it gives 4ms pulse...
[12:52:09] <Kevin`> do the same thing in an empty project
[12:54:10] <budwaa> I am actually doing a load of DDRD|= statements for each individual pin would this make a difference?
[12:55:28] <Kevin`> budwaa: no, since it's not changing PORTD
[12:56:18] <Kevin`> budwaa: it's inneficient though. the fastest you can do is a set instruction for configuration, so do DDRD=(1<<1)|(1<<5); or whatever
[12:56:58] <Kevin`> setting and clearing a single bit is a single instruction, but you have more than one of them.
[13:15:10] <budwaa> It seems if you don't do anything the pins will go to 5V at start. So I guess part of the pulse is the uC bringing up the pins to 5V at start and then my code pulling it down to 0V. Maybe this is what creates the pulse.
[13:16:31] <Kevin`> budwaa: the pins are high-z at start, they aren't driven high
[13:17:01] <Kevin`> as I said before, if you have an external pullup, it would be high
[13:17:19] <Kevin`> also if you have it floating on both sides it could be anything, so make it do what you want
[13:17:48] <budwaa> Just noticed the clock select specificed 4ms. I guess this is a delay at startup before code execution?
[13:18:32] <budwaa> There is no pullup the pins just connect to a buffer IC
[13:21:46] <Kevin`> budwaa: try a 10k pulldown while measuring it
[13:22:29] <Kevin`> budwaa: there is a configurable delay between power application and code execution for the oscillator to start
[13:25:39] <mog> does anyone know if ftdi chips draw much current when not connected to usb?
[13:26:14] <Kevin`> mog: with or without a power supply connected?
[13:26:29] <mog> well the vccio would be connected
[13:26:43] <mog> but not its vcc line
[13:26:52] <Kevin`> i'm not sure how the chip behaves if you have io+vccio powered but the chip itself unpowered
[13:26:59] <Kevin`> it may not like that, I suggest you read the datasheet
[13:27:17] <mog> ya i couldnt find specific behavior but i probably just over looked it
[13:27:56] <mog> if i didnt have any vcc or vccio connected i take it would have 0 draw?
[13:28:22] <Kevin`> mog: you would still be supplying power via the uart pins
[13:28:37] <Kevin`> which would either do nothing, power the chip via it's esd protection, or do nothing good
[13:29:04] <mog> well id have the uart pins off
[13:29:08] <mog> when on battery
[13:29:52] <Kevin`> well then sure, it would have 0 draw
[13:30:00] <Kevin`> no voltage supplied across it anywhere
[13:30:27] <mog> hmm i guess i can just jumper the vccio pin
[13:30:47] <mog> not so bad
[13:32:03] <mapee> hi
[13:48:34] <dirty_d> i gotta learn differential equations
[13:54:26] <RikusW> http://blog.makezine.com/2012/02/28/how-to-splice-wire-to-nasa-standards/
[14:00:03] <dirty_d> cool
[14:00:18] <RikusW> http://boost-instruments.com/splicing/splicing.html
[14:01:26] <dirty_d> wth
[14:01:28] <dirty_d> no solder?
[14:01:32] <dirty_d> that looks horrible
[14:01:36] <Landon> RikusW: I shouldn't have read the comments on that makeznie post
[14:01:43] <Landon> now I can't stop staring at the second picture
[14:02:03] <RikusW> lol
[14:03:38] <Steffanx> Hehe Landon
[14:04:10] <RikusW> For electric fencing steel wire I use a knot recommended by gallagher
[14:04:29] <cyanide> hello folks
[14:04:55] <dirty_d> hi
[14:04:56] <tobbor> dirty_d! like, totally tell us about the project!
[14:05:12] <dirty_d> whoa! what?
[14:05:13] <dirty_d> lol
[14:06:16] <cyanide> Landon lol
[14:07:08] <cyanide> why the hell is atmel so jewish with its samples?
[14:07:45] <RikusW> http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/407%20Splices.html
[14:07:46] <Steffanx> because hobbyists abuse the service all the time
[14:07:57] <Steffanx> Where is cyanide from?
[14:08:07] <Steffanx> Germany wasn't it?
[14:08:10] <cyanide> india
[14:08:13] <Steffanx> oh india
[14:08:14] <cyanide> no man, not germany
[14:08:15] <cyanide> lol
[14:08:20] <Steffanx> other side of the globe
[14:09:02] <cyanide> i need 1 xmega to test my board
[14:09:08] <cyanide> mouser wants 40 usd to ship it
[14:09:09] <cyanide> ffs
[14:09:18] <cyanide> i must find one locally
[14:10:12] <dirty_d> daaaamn
[14:10:21] <dirty_d> cyanide, that thing you bought didnt come with one?
[14:10:42] <cyanide> that one's a 32a4. i want a 32a4u
[14:10:55] <cyanide> not that big a deal but i dont want to desolder it. ill be using that board too
[14:12:10] <dirty_d> do you have a head gun?
[14:12:12] <dirty_d> lol
[14:12:14] <dirty_d> heat gun
[14:12:43] <cyanide> i have a hot air soldering tool, yea
[14:13:13] <dirty_d> should be easy to desolder
[14:14:48] <dirty_d> do any of you guys know differential equations?
[14:15:29] <RikusW> my brother does ;)
[14:15:37] <RikusW> but he isn't on irc
[14:15:41] <dirty_d> lol
[14:16:00] <RikusW> he was in this channel once ot twice
[14:16:14] <RikusW> but I guess he is to busy on his physics masters
[14:16:14] <Steffanx> He is not an AVR man RikusW ?
[14:16:25] <dirty_d> #math never wants to help
[14:16:31] <RikusW> he is a physics man :-P
[14:16:53] <Steffanx> Some physics men also like microcontrolers ..
[14:17:15] <RikusW> We did use it to build his steering wheel HID project
[14:17:31] <cyanide> why won't #math help?
[14:17:32] <RikusW> guess he just don't have the time to play around with it
[14:18:40] <cyanide> i've emailed atmel india
[14:18:45] <cyanide> let's see what comes of it
[14:18:58] <dirty_d> cyanide, because they say things like "That may be problematic." instead of offering help
[14:18:58] <RikusW> they probably assume you already know simple stuff like that :-/
[14:18:59] <dirty_d> lol
[14:19:31] <dirty_d> whats simple
[14:19:41] <RikusW> for them it is simple
[14:19:44] <dirty_d> oh yea
[14:19:46] <RikusW> not for use ;)
[14:19:52] <RikusW> us
[14:19:56] <dirty_d> im done with college and ive never had calculus
[14:20:17] <dirty_d> i need differential equations for this course though
[14:20:27] <dirty_d> i think i have already done this stuff
[14:20:31] <dirty_d> just not im math language
[14:20:41] <dirty_d> im sure ive done it sorta in c++
[14:20:47] <dirty_d> in time stepped simulations
[14:20:47] <RikusW> math language can be confusing....
[14:21:08] <dirty_d> thats pretty much what a differential equation describes i believe
[14:21:13] <RikusW> math got too many global variables with the same name :-P
[14:21:21] <dirty_d> yea i know
[14:21:31] <RikusW> usually single letters...
[14:21:46] <dirty_d> yea
[14:21:51] <RikusW> and depending on context it means something different
[14:21:53] <dirty_d> or if its two
[14:22:01] <dirty_d> is that one variable or multiplication?
[14:22:03] <dirty_d> lol
[14:22:05] <dirty_d> bastards
[14:22:25] <RikusW> they should have learnt C programming first :-P
[14:23:39] <RikusW> math notation can be a nightmare to the uninitiated....
[14:23:58] <dirty_d> yea
[14:24:06] <dirty_d> especially when there are squiggly lines and shit
[14:24:11] <RikusW> its like another language altogether
[14:24:47] <RikusW> I sortof understand some of it....
[14:25:11] <dirty_d> yea somewhat
[14:25:17] <dirty_d> i dont know how to solve that crazy shit though
[14:25:30] <dirty_d> integrals and derivatives and what have you
[14:25:37] <dirty_d> ive always wrote programs to do things like that
[14:25:53] <dirty_d> like a rieman sum i guess
[14:25:57] <dirty_d> i think thats what its called
[14:26:01] <RikusW> but those integral equations.... and manipulating those......
[14:26:10] <RikusW> can't get my head quite around that
[14:26:16] <dirty_d> in programs all that crap is easy
[14:26:26] <dirty_d> because you just calculate something at one point in time and move on from there
[14:26:27] <Landon> and error accumulates quickly :P
[14:26:37] <RikusW> I'd rather read those equations written down as C
[14:26:40] <dirty_d> but when you need to write an equation that gives you an answer at some point in time
[14:26:46] <RikusW> much more understandable
[14:26:49] <dirty_d> its rediculous
[14:27:16] <dirty_d> Landon, yea, but tis close enough
[14:27:29] <dirty_d> you can make it as close as you need it to be
[14:28:29] <dirty_d> calculus isnt even math, its black magic
[14:28:39] <RikusW> lol
[14:28:41] <Landon> haha
[14:28:45] <Landon> nah, discrete is black magic
[14:29:02] <dirty_d> how can you take an equation and turn it into something completely different and call it math
[14:29:04] <dirty_d> thats magic
[14:29:13] <dirty_d> if i take a cat and turn it into a walrus
[14:29:15] <dirty_d> MAGIC
[14:29:16] <dirty_d> lol
[14:29:30] <RikusW> I understand the theory of integration and differentiation, but those equations.......
[14:29:51] <dirty_d> Landon, do you knwo differential equations?
[14:30:21] <RikusW> afaik its where two variables are unknown
[14:30:30] <dirty_d> nah thats something else
[14:30:38] <dirty_d> simultaneos equation
[14:30:40] <Landon> dirty_d: in theory yes, in practice I'd have to go look at my notes
[14:30:43] <dirty_d> or something of that sort
[14:31:33] <dirty_d> Landon, if you had like a missile flying through the air any idea what the differential equation for it would look like?
[14:31:46] <Landon> hey
[14:31:55] <dirty_d> soemthing like
[14:31:56] <Landon> I said I know diff eq in theory
[14:32:02] <Landon> not physics :P
[14:32:03] <dirty_d> well i mean not how to solve
[14:32:06] <dirty_d> just how to write it down
[14:32:12] <dirty_d> i mean a simple case
[14:32:15] <dirty_d> where drag for is like
[14:32:21] <dirty_d> Cda*v
[14:33:28] <dirty_d> v(t) = v(t - dt) + (f - Cda*v^2)dt
[14:33:30] <dirty_d> soemthing liek that
[14:33:35] <dirty_d> is that a differential equation?
[14:33:36] <dirty_d> lol
[14:34:02] <dirty_d> actually that cant be right
[14:34:11] <dirty_d> v(t) = v(t - dt) + (f - Cda*v(t)^2)dt
[14:34:11] <Landon> well
[14:34:13] <dirty_d> maybe that is
[14:34:20] <dirty_d> oops
[14:34:28] <dirty_d> v(t) = v(t - dt) + ((f - Cda*v(t)^2)/m)dt
[14:34:32] <Landon> a differential equation is where you deal with x(t), dx(t)/dt, etc
[14:34:37] <dirty_d> do you lnow what im trying to say?
[14:34:53] <dirty_d> t is time and x axis, v is velocity and y axis
[14:34:54] <dirty_d> i guess
[14:35:06] <dirty_d> dt change in time right?
[14:35:14] <RikusW> delta t
[14:35:17] <Landon> I'd be able to parse it after a bit, but getting my computer to start is more important right now :P
[14:35:34] <Landon> but I'm getting an idea
[14:35:42] <Landon> lemme write it down in mathy notation
[14:35:51] <dirty_d> v(t - dt) being the velocity an infintesmly small timestep in the past
[14:35:58] <dirty_d> i guess
[14:36:01] <dirty_d> thats what i mean anyway
[14:36:10] <dirty_d> like thats how id do it in a physics simulation
[14:36:17] <dirty_d> but i dont know how its actually written in math
[14:37:28] <dirty_d> i work at a school, i should go bother a math teacher
[14:37:28] <dirty_d> lol
[14:37:38] <Landon> ok
[14:37:43] <dirty_d> i dont think i can though
[14:37:48] <Landon> I might be wrong, but it makes sense for me to come up with...
[14:38:04] <Landon> dv(t)/dt = (f-Cda*v(t)^2)/m
[14:39:02] <dirty_d> that makes sense to me
[14:39:49] <dirty_d> can you use dv(t)?
[14:39:58] <dirty_d> ive only ever seen dv/dt
[14:40:06] <Landon> well dv/dt is just shorthand
[14:40:17] <Landon> if you're assuming v is a function of t
[14:40:18] <dirty_d> ahh
[14:40:44] <Landon> but it could as well be dv(x)/dt and it doesn't really matter, because there is no change in v(x) with respect to t
[14:40:54] <dirty_d> so then the goal is to do magic and turn that into some equation that gives you v(t)?
[14:41:01] <Landon> (well it does matter, but the dt doesn't matter)
[14:41:02] <Landon> pretty much
[14:41:15] <dirty_d> hmm i think maxima cna do that
[14:41:21] <Landon> possibly
[14:41:22] <dirty_d> maybe i dont have to learn that part after all
[14:41:24] <Landon> might require some massaging
[14:42:14] <Landon> I think about only half of my diff eq homework could be solved by my ti89 :( the other half, after I did enough massaging to get it to solve right .... then it was already done :P
[14:42:33] <dirty_d> cool
[14:44:02] <dirty_d> eq:'diff(y,x) = -y;
[14:44:06] <dirty_d> whatever the hell that means
[14:45:01] <dirty_d> oh wait, i think i get it
[14:47:18] <cyanide> i wish one day we can 3d print pcbs
[14:47:37] <cyanide> that'll be nice. to not wait for prototypes.
[14:48:15] <RikusW> there is already pcb milling machines
[14:48:57] <RikusW> and I've made my first pcb's using photoresist sometime ago
[14:49:15] <dirty_d> i think it doesnt like v(t)
[14:53:48] <Landon> heh, lame, just had a phone interview
[14:54:15] <Landon> guy said only the hardware guys get to work with microcontrollers
[14:54:46] <cyanide> in my shop, everyone gets to work with the torque wrenches
[14:54:48] <cyanide> even the customers
[14:54:51] <cyanide> hah
[14:55:01] <dirty_d> 2 sqrt(Cda f) t - log(- 1) m
[14:55:01] <dirty_d> ----------------------------
[14:55:01] <dirty_d> 2 sqrt(Cda f)
[14:55:04] <dirty_d> i think it worked
[14:55:43] <Landon> cyanide: hobby shop?
[14:55:58] <cyanide> building racing engines
[14:56:06] <cyanide> a very expensive hobby shop
[14:56:06] <cyanide> lol
[14:56:08] <Landon> hehe
[14:56:24] <dirty_d> cyanide, do you make money from it?
[14:56:28] <Landon> very cool, I've been trying to find small places, but I'm sure they've already found what they need
[14:56:36] <cyanide> yup
[14:56:42] <dirty_d> cool
[14:56:46] <cyanide> mostly racing teams though
[15:00:52] <dirty_d> i get a complex number, lol
[15:00:55] <dirty_d> thats not good
[15:24:39] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel
[15:27:28] <Steffanx> CapnKernel !
[15:45:41] <CapnKernel> Hello folks.
[15:45:46] <Landon> ahoy
[15:46:01] <CapnKernel> Just doing last minute packing of my apartment, which is quite depressing.
[15:47:07] <Steffanx> And when do you know you are allowed to go back CapnKernel ?
[15:47:25] <CapnKernel> I don't even know that.
[15:47:51] <asteve> where's that guy that wanted to buy 1M LEDs
[15:47:51] <CapnKernel> In the ideal case they say "yep, one same day visa coming up, here you are", and I come back
[15:48:43] <mrfrenzy> when will you be trying to get back?
[15:48:44] <Steffanx> That was OndraSter, asteve
[15:48:45] <CapnKernel> But it may be that the same-day visas are not available to me and it will take 3 days.
[15:48:50] <CapnKernel> today
[15:48:52] <OndraSter> yeah
[15:48:53] <OndraSter> that was m
[15:48:54] <OndraSter> e
[15:48:56] <mrfrenzy> aah okay
[15:49:00] <mrfrenzy> good luck then ;)
[15:49:00] <asteve> did you purchase them?
[15:49:01] <Rickta59> so for using gdb with a dragon .. avrice is it?
[15:49:11] <OndraSter> lolno
[15:49:13] <CapnKernel> Oh no, someone talking AVR!
[15:49:14] <OndraSter> I was joking
[15:49:34] <Rickta59> sorry i wasn't keeping up
[15:49:38] <Steffanx> on linux.. i think it is Rickta59
[15:49:47] <Kevin`> Rickta59: wasn't it avarice?
[15:49:58] <CapnKernel> Or maybe they don't want to sell to me under any circumstance but it takes them 3 days to work this out. That wouldn't be good
[15:50:02] <Rickta59> i have a atmega32u2 and it doesn't seem to be supported
[15:50:05] <CapnKernel> Anyway, gotta go
[15:50:07] <Steffanx> AVaRICE Kevin` :P
[15:50:11] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel
[15:50:13] <Rickta59> right sorry
[15:50:20] <Tom_itx> you know 100 is more than a sample right?
[15:50:38] <CapnKernel> Ahh, someone got his mail I see :-)
[15:50:44] <Tom_itx> thanks
[15:50:57] <CapnKernel> You're welcome. Just hope they're the right size.
[15:51:14] <Tom_itx> i'll check after while
[15:53:32] <CapnKernel> So that was 2.5 weeks door to door. Your PCBs can't be far behind.
[15:53:42] <Tom_itx> nope probably not
[15:54:06] <CapnKernel> Anyway, really gotta go.
[15:54:17] <mrfrenzy> cya
[15:54:26] <CapnKernel> Bye guys.
[16:00:23] <cyanide> aww he left
[17:58:39] <DanFrederiksen> have you signed the whitehouse ufo petition?
http://wh.gov/8wh
[17:58:42] <DanFrederiksen> spread the word
[17:58:51] <DanFrederiksen> we are legion
[17:59:13] <Landon> -> 5858 + Jan 31 The White House ( 18K) Petition Response: Why We Can't Comment
[17:59:23] * Landon thinks you'll get an email like that if it gets enough people :P
[17:59:34] <Landon> *x-files theme*
[18:13:25] <Roklobsta> Aliens schmaliens.
[18:14:39] <cyanide> yeah sure
[18:14:47] <cyanide> im sure obama will tell you
[18:15:12] <Tom_itx> why, is he one of them?
[18:16:34] <Steffanx> I am
[18:17:27] <Tom_itx> i already knew that
[18:18:58] <Steffanx> C'est possible
[18:31:53] <Roklobsta> he was born in kenya
[18:32:08] <Roklobsta> kenya is a small hamletg in hawaii.
[18:32:45] <Tom_itx> kenya is in SA
[18:33:27] <Steffanx> It is?
[18:33:44] <Tom_itx> that or hawaii
[18:44:43] <zii> What are some common uses for EEPROM memory?
[19:00:18] <Roklobsta> zii: oh hang about... geez. system settings like baud rate, serial number of the device, whatever. I have used it in the past on commecial products for serial number, hardware revision, and types of hardware loaded on board so that the firmware could use the correct drivers.
[19:00:42] <Roklobsta> so EEPROM was set once in the factory.
[19:01:13] <Roklobsta> anything you want to be persistent really
[19:01:24] <Roklobsta> anyway, you'll never know now coz you left.
[19:02:07] * Tom_itx wondered how long Roklobsta would talk to himself
[19:02:12] <inflex> heh
[19:02:38] <Roklobsta> 1st sign of insanity
[19:04:10] <Roklobsta> i am preaching to the converted anyway.
[19:05:51] <Roklobsta> Thought I heard in Northern Queensland they yell at and berate their boards to configure them.
[19:11:31] <Roklobsta> no bites.
[19:22:08] <Roklobsta> tom_itx: when you get a mo could you please try the new avrdude with the dll?
[19:23:06] <Tom_itx> oh hell i nearly forgot
[19:23:45] * Roklobsta looks for his flamethrower call the Reminder.
[19:24:18] <Tom_itx> i don't think i have libusb installed right now anyway
[19:25:14] <Roklobsta> okidoki
[19:25:24] <Roklobsta> you don't need it for your widget
[19:25:29] <Roklobsta> i think
[19:25:38] <Roklobsta> you just ran into trouble with a missing dll?
[19:25:51] <Roklobsta> i should make dure my build is built statically
[19:25:56] <Tom_itx> yeah but i know where i've been with avrdude on that machine
[19:38:07] <Roklobsta> damn you firefox keeps locking up
[19:43:22] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna try it here in a sec
[19:58:07] <Tom_itx> yeah it needs libusb
[19:58:15] <Tom_itx> and i don't have it installed
[19:58:29] <Tom_itx> it breaks all my studio installs so i don't think i'll install it
[20:32:31] <Roklobsta> ok
[20:32:42] <Roklobsta> even if you try the libusb filter?
[20:32:57] <Tom_itx> the new driver is what screwed it all up
[20:33:05] <Roklobsta> 1.2.6?
[20:33:05] <Tom_itx> and i can't get it uninstalled
[20:33:08] <Tom_itx> i don't know
[20:33:34] <Tom_itx> i know i don't wanna go thru that again
[20:34:12] <Tom_itx> looks like the latest one i had was 1.2.2
[20:34:16] <Tom_itx> .1
[20:34:52] <Tom_itx> what's better about 1.2.6?
[20:35:07] <Tom_itx> does it have an uninstaller?
[20:35:12] <Tom_itx> cause the other one sure didn't
[20:36:44] <Tom_itx> it was a real pain in the ass to get the jungo driver back for studio
[20:37:32] <Roklobsta> oh
[20:38:02] <Roklobsta> could you uninstall the driver (with deleting of the driver files) in the device driver manager?
[20:38:09] <Tom_itx> nope
[20:38:47] <Roklobsta> I have also used the
http://ghostbuster.codeplex.com/ tool to clear out any memory of drivers so that when you plug something in it's like a virgin plugin
[20:39:23] <Roklobsta> it's been good for getting rid of libusb
[20:40:02] <Tom_itx> ok
[20:41:04] <Tom_L> what ver do you use?
[20:45:52] <Tom_L> what happens if you remove all ghosted device?
[20:45:55] <Tom_L> is that a bad idea?
[20:52:23] <Roklobsta> i used it to clear out all my usb serial
[20:52:42] <Tom_L> i clicked on 'remove ghost' and it's still in the list
[20:52:52] <Roklobsta> from what I can tell the next time you put the dev ice in it will go through me motions of reinstalling it from scratch
[20:52:56] <Roklobsta> refresh
[20:53:00] <Tom_L> i did
[20:53:33] <Roklobsta> oh you have to highlight it and right clock. down the bottom it should change from "0 to remove" to "X to remove"
[20:54:23] <Tom_L> ok that did it
[20:54:46] <Tom_L> just tested it on some 'unknown devices'
[21:13:40] <Tom_L> mmm
[21:13:54] <Tom_L> the compatible switch didn't change the download times any
[21:26:52] <Kevin`> Tom_L: you are specifying your desired datarate, right?
[21:33:04] <Tom_L> no that didn't make any difference
[21:33:23] <Tom_L> you mean with the -B option?
[21:33:59] <Kevin`> Tom_L: yeah, that sounds familiar. in any case some of the programmers remember the previous setting used
[21:34:18] <Tom_L> this is the lufa clone i made
[21:34:35] <Tom_L> just doing some tests on it
[21:43:44] <cyanide> do any of you put logos on copper layers?
[21:43:56] <cyanide> hello CapnKernel
[21:44:01] <Tom_L> haven't yet
[21:44:15] <Tom_L> i generally put traces there
[21:44:21] <cyanide> haha
[21:44:41] <cyanide> i want to see some examples
[21:45:16] <CapnKernel> cyanide: hi there
[21:46:08] <CapnKernel> So I'm towing everything I own behind me, and when I get to the embassy, they don't let you in with your luggage.
[21:46:41] <Tom_L> so what do you do with it then?
[21:46:56] <CapnKernel> But wait, I hear you say, since it's Hong Kong, they'd have a nice service to help you with that right, coz heaven knows, it happens often enough.
[21:47:57] <CapnKernel> But no, China's embassy comes with China's standard complete lack of awareness of the service mentality
[21:48:28] <CapnKernel> So, haven't even set foot in the door, and my day is going to pot :-(
[21:49:08] <Tom_L> put it all in the mail
[21:49:42] <CapnKernel> At this rate I'm going to climb in with it and seal the envelope.
[21:49:57] <CapnKernel> Anyway, gotta go. Just needed a grizzle.
[21:50:21] <Tom_L> so you don't know how long shop is shut down?
[21:50:28] <CapnKernel> not yet
[21:50:36] <Tom_L> will you know today?
[21:51:16] <CapnKernel> hopefully, but possibly not
[21:51:24] <CapnKernel> I'm just itching to bail, and go home
[21:51:29] <CapnKernel> I could do with seeing my family
[21:53:55] <cyanide> lets see how well this ends up looking on a real pcb
http://i.imgur.com/YO3RE.jpg
[21:55:06] <Tom_L> how did you transfer that to eagle?
[21:56:02] <cyanide> import bmp ulp
[21:56:10] <cyanide> import it to layer 1 or 16
[21:56:12] <Tom_L> from what?
[21:56:23] <cyanide> from a bitmap
[21:56:50] <Tom_L> drawn with what?
[21:57:11] <cyanide> uhh
[21:57:21] <cyanide> just a simple monochrome bitmap with some text in i
[21:57:25] <cyanide> text in it*
[21:57:35] <cyanide> flipped it
[21:57:46] <cyanide> imported into eagle, layer 16
[21:59:12] <cyanide> do whatever bs you want in paint. flip it if you want it on the bottom layer. then save it as a monochrome bitmap
[21:59:19] <CapnKernel> Eagle's horrid bmp import (you end up with a symbol containing hundreds of little pixels, which then killed performance when one did any kind of PCB ops, was one of the "right, now the pain's too great" moments that convinced me to move to KiCad.
[21:59:46] <cyanide> yeah, it slows down massively
[22:00:02] <cyanide> i just add it to see the board in 3d, then delete it.
[22:00:51] <cyanide> how is kicad?
[22:01:02] <CapnKernel> Well, every package is different
[22:01:08] <cyanide> i wanted to try some alternatives like altium designer
[22:01:15] <CapnKernel> It has its fair share of warts and things that you shake your head at
[22:01:22] <CapnKernel> But in general, it WORKS
[22:01:38] <CapnKernel> I found it was a much more "willing" program than Eagle
[22:01:57] <CapnKernel> I still use Eagle, and enjoy it.
[22:02:25] <CapnKernel> It doesn't do the mechanical modelling that Altium does (although it does have 3d view)
[22:02:39] <CapnKernel> The included libraries are completely crap
[22:02:51] <CapnKernel> Either search for better ones on the net, or make your own (very easy)
[22:03:51] <CapnKernel> Curiously, in KiCad, the schematic is completely separate from the board layout. When you're doing the schematic, you don't specify footprints at all.
[22:04:03] <cyanide> oh
[22:04:33] <CapnKernel> Because of this, I have one of my designs using through-hole, 1208 and 0805, all from the same schematic
[22:06:11] * nevyn liked that.
[22:06:45] <CapnKernel> Anyway, I gotta go
[22:07:04] <cyanide> later!
[22:07:12] <nevyn> CapnKernel: kicad needs a cpan style library sharing thing
[22:07:26] <nevyn> much as I hate secondary package systems...
[22:07:31] <nevyn> CapnKernel: later.
[22:07:59] <CapnKernel> nevyn: Yes. Live and off the web, with commenting, etc. Like wikipedia
[22:08:05] <CapnKernel> Bye
[22:15:35] <cyanide> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55z_0BYb5is&feature=related
[22:24:51] <SianaGearz> boehm just assumes that everything which is aligned suitably might be an address, and then it looks up in a table of blocks which it knows. microsoft probably uses runtime introspection to discover reference data types.
[22:25:53] <SianaGearz> and of course there are ways to cache information and make some assumptions to cut the stop-the-world inspection short, which is what generational collection boils down to.
[22:27:26] <SianaGearz> the rate at which boehm mistakes some float or whatever for a pointer and holds on to some memory longer than necessary is very very low.
[22:27:34] <SianaGearz> can't happen in .net at all.
[22:28:26] <Landon> o.O
[22:30:00] <SianaGearz> whooooooops wrong channel.
[22:30:06] <SianaGearz> sorry!
