#avr | Logs for 2012-03-10

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[00:31:57] <cyanide> !thislog
[00:31:58] <tobbor> This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23avr-2012-03-10.html
[00:47:27] <Casper> hey Richard_Cavell !
[00:47:41] <Richard_Cavell> hiya
[00:53:23] * Casper pokes Richard_Cavell
[00:53:45] * Richard_Cavell feels like he's been poked
[00:54:25] <Richard_Cavell> sorry didn't see the pm
[01:26:50] <cyanide> what do you guys do when your mouse starts clicking multiple timer per actual click?
[01:27:06] <cyanide> fucking shit mice. i wish they made mechanical mice
[01:27:09] <cyanide> like keyboards
[01:27:26] <cyanide> i bought this 3 months ago
[01:27:28] <cyanide> a razer
[01:28:36] <Casper> cyanide: I tear down a cheap mouse then swap the switch
[02:09:03] <wollw> cyanide: http://pastie.org/private/p6wcgqxyqifvwp7cnwgoqg
[02:09:26] <wollw> someone in #sparkfun was having that problem the other day with a mouse
[02:10:55] <wollw> not my script
[02:22:57] <iR0b0t1> Does anyone have a pulseIn function?
[03:42:05] <grummund> hmm, my mouse packed up this morning
[03:42:14] <grummund> must be in sympathy
[03:55:05] <ziph> iR0b0t1: pulseIn?
[03:55:40] <iR0b0t1> Like ah, start-stop timing.
[03:55:46] <iR0b0t1> I don't want to dedicate a timer to this.
[03:56:43] <ziph> libavr has delay functions in it.
[03:56:56] <ziph> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/group__util__delay.html
[03:58:36] <Kevin`> iR0b0t1: look at how the arduino function is implemented if you want something similar
[04:00:15] <ziph> Oh, you want to use a timer capture pin just once?
[04:42:58] <Sgt_Lemming> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsvOCanxtEE
[04:46:07] <Steffanx> You are that little kid in the video Sgt_Lemming ? :P
[04:46:16] <Sgt_Lemming> lol
[04:46:16] <Sgt_Lemming> no
[07:09:45] <RikusW> Hi CapnKernel
[07:14:02] <CapnKernel> RikusW: Hi there!
[07:14:34] <Steffanx> CapnKernel what are the people in the country you live in doing?
[07:14:52] <CapnKernel> Post-dinner activities
[07:14:53] <Steffanx> "由于使用用户过多，请再次查询 返回" <= i get that message for maybe two weeks now when i try to trace my package
[07:14:56] <CapnKernel> It's 9pm
[07:15:50] <Steffanx> (china post)
[07:15:54] <CapnKernel> "Due to excessive customer enquiries, please try again soon"
[07:16:04] <Steffanx> 'soon' :D
[07:16:16] <CapnKernel> Where excessive prolly means ">0"
[07:16:21] <RikusW> CapnKernel: what would typical shipping charges be ?
[07:16:37] <CapnKernel> Are you talking about what I offer?
[07:16:45] <RikusW> yes
[07:16:52] <RikusW> just give an estimate
[07:17:10] <CapnKernel> My free shipping option is with HK Post, because China Post don't give a shit when something happens.
[07:17:19] <CapnKernel> The operative word there being: free
[07:17:35] <RikusW> Free like in worldwide ?!
[07:17:54] <CapnKernel> Yes
[07:17:58] <RikusW> wow
[07:17:59] <Steffanx> In China more than only the sun is free RikusW :P
[07:18:12] <CapnKernel> RikusW: Free also == slow
[07:18:23] <CapnKernel> And I would strongly recommend the USD3 registration option
[07:18:30] <RikusW> how slow ? a month ?
[07:18:41] <CapnKernel> And if your country's postal system doesn't have a good reputation, then mine will be no different
[07:18:54] <CapnKernel> I'd say 3ish weeks
[07:19:29] <RikusW> South African postal sevices improved considerably since the 1994 slack....
[07:20:20] <Steffanx> Improved.. here it probably got worse the last few years
[07:20:27] <CapnKernel> And DHL for 3-5 days worldwide is only USD20.
[07:20:30] <RikusW> Do you have any parts/price lists ? even if its only approximate prices
[07:20:43] <CapnKernel> No but I'm happy to get you prices on stuff
[07:20:53] <CapnKernel> I'm concentrating on getting online ordering of PCBs at the moment
[07:21:05] <CapnKernel> If someone has a reasonable amount of components though, I'll do that.
[07:21:17] * CapnKernel doesn't want to spam #avr :-(
[07:21:37] <Steffanx> Tom_itx isn't here :P
[07:21:44] <Steffanx> And it's no spam when we ask for it CapnKernel :P
[07:21:45] <RikusW> maybe put prices of stuff you already supplied online somewhere
[07:21:56] <RikusW> even if its not valid anymore
[07:22:11] <RikusW> it will give a rough idea of what to expect ?
[07:25:24] <CapnKernel> RikusW: It's definitely on my list of things to do. The biggest problem I don't have at the moment is that I don't scale :-(
[07:26:14] <Steffanx> The biggest problem you don't have? Isn't that a good thing?
[07:26:25] <RikusW> what is your minimum order quantities ?
[07:26:40] <RikusW> or does it just get cheaper when more is ordered ?
[07:27:06] <CapnKernel> Sorry, the biggest problem I have
[07:27:22] <CapnKernel> It depends
[07:27:50] <CapnKernel> Some things I need to buy by the reel, and for this, it doesn't get cheaper. I just chop what you ordered off the reel and charge you accordingly
[07:28:06] <CapnKernel> Some thing I have to buy per piece, for example, ICs, and yes, this gets cheaper the more you buy.
[07:28:17] <CapnKernel> My policy at the moment is to sell at cost.
[07:28:57] <RikusW> to get the business started ?
[07:29:01] <CapnKernel> Several reasons
[07:29:15] <CapnKernel> I need more experience at doing this, and sooner or later, I'm going to mess up.
[07:29:43] <CapnKernel> That's why I'm mostly doing business with #avr folks, because you all know me, and you know I will work damn hard to fix things up when it happens.
[07:30:02] <RikusW> good to know ;)
[07:30:15] <CapnKernel> It's a trust thing, and I know I have to earn it
[07:30:54] <CapnKernel> At the moment, even if I sell for the same price as the other suppliers, I wouldn't make a profit, because I've yet to put effort into streamlining processing, therefore it's very labour intensive and the margin doesn't cover my time
[07:31:08] <CapnKernel> What it gives me though is experience
[07:31:34] <CapnKernel> That's why I'm happy to sell at cost: That experience is what's going to serve me well in the future.
[07:31:36] <RikusW> which is valuable too
[07:31:42] <CapnKernel> Yes
[07:32:13] <CapnKernel> There's two things I'll be doing which are a little different to others.
[07:32:27] <CapnKernel> (Note these are in the future)
[07:32:34] <CapnKernel> The first is to have cheap components, but have a minimum order, of say USD20.
[07:32:55] <CapnKernel> If you're not up to $20, well, keep adding stuff to the cart until you do :-)
[07:33:06] <RikusW> thats quite acceptable
[07:33:24] <CapnKernel> It's designed to avoid the situation where I have to go to a lot of trouble to handle a 5c order.
[07:33:36] <mrfrenzy> that's very reasonable
[07:33:40] <CapnKernel> I'd rather keep the prices low and have a minimum, than load up the price.
[07:33:54] <mrfrenzy> some of my supplies have a minimum order of $300, under that you pay $15 small order surcharge
[07:34:04] <CapnKernel> Yes something like that
[07:37:22] <Steffanx> Have a good name for your shop yet?
[07:37:26] <Steffanx> CapnKernel Goodies?
[07:37:30] <RikusW> CapnKernel: I don't need any components right now, but I'm considering an order sometime
[07:37:35] <CapnKernel> http://www.hackvana.com/
[07:37:36] <Steffanx> +'s
[07:37:53] <CapnKernel> Believe it or not, I don't plan to be in the business of selling components
[07:38:06] <CapnKernel> Just as a biscuit company doesn't sell eggs, flour, butter, etc
[07:38:10] <Steffanx> Please get a better template :P
[07:38:15] <CapnKernel> I want to handle bills-of-materials
[07:38:17] <Steffanx> This is too itead and seeed-ish
[07:38:20] <CapnKernel> Steffanx: You're welcome to help me
[07:38:27] <Steffanx> I'm not a designer, sorry
[07:38:31] <CapnKernel> It just has to be good enough for now
[07:38:38] <CapnKernel> But I do appreciate the feedback
[07:39:01] <CapnKernel> I'm going to dump Zen-cart, it is a toy and I hate it every time I use it.
[07:39:25] <CapnKernel> Basically, you give me a bill-of-materials, and I will give you a quote for it as a whole
[07:39:28] <Steffanx> I wonder how seeed and itead do it..
[07:40:02] <CapnKernel> If you buy it as separate components from my website, they will be relatively expensive. Buying the components on a pre-entered bill-of-materials will be a lot cheaper.
[07:40:17] <CapnKernel> Kind of like buying a car's worth of spare parts. Much cheaper to buy the car!
[07:41:24] <mrfrenzy> thing is, people must know they can get a reply rather quickly. otherwise they won't bother to enter their BOM
[07:41:32] <mrfrenzy> maybe if you have a bunch of examples online
[07:41:46] <mrfrenzy> BOM's for some popular kits, and a buy now for this price-button
[07:41:52] <mrfrenzy> so they see in what range the prices will be
[07:42:02] <RikusW> CapnKernel: do you have any AVR prices ? (even if a bit old)
[07:46:44] <CapnKernel> No-one's asked me so far
[07:47:08] <CapnKernel> Someone (haven't got my notes open) asked me for an XMEGA price, but I couldn't get them
[07:49:14] <CapnKernel> But I'm happy to get you a price, for sure
[07:49:22] <RikusW> would be nice to see some approximate prices on AVR's, after all this is #avr ;)
[07:50:00] <CapnKernel> I know what you mean.
[07:50:32] <CapnKernel> At the moment I'm a pull model - people pull from me. I wish I knew what models people were mostly interested in, as it would help me work out which ones to get prices for.\
[07:50:56] <Steffanx> 328p 88p 168 i think that are the most popular ones
[07:51:12] <RikusW> how about m324a and m32u2 ?
[07:51:22] <CapnKernel> I think 328p, 168p, 32u4 and tiny85
[07:51:38] <RikusW> 324a is cheaper than 328p at RS
[07:51:45] <CapnKernel> I'm sure it is
[07:51:48] <RikusW> and 324a got 40 pins
[07:51:56] <CapnKernel> But we don't hear people talking about it here, and that's the important thing
[07:52:12] <RikusW> because they don't know its cheaper ;)
[07:53:39] <Kevin`> I would expect most of the people here to buy stuff by doing a parametric price-sorted search
[07:53:53] <RikusW> most atmegas are more or less the same anyways
[07:53:59] <Kevin`> unless it's a product that already comes with something, like arduino or the little usb boards
[07:54:46] <CapnKernel> My blog: http://hackvana.blogspot.com/
[07:54:54] <CapnKernel> I want to start with PCBs
[07:55:08] <CapnKernel> Then with BoMs of our choosing (think: kits)
[07:55:17] <CapnKernel> Then with BoMs you upload.
[07:55:32] <CapnKernel> I want this to be an easy way you can share a project with your friends
[07:55:44] <CapnKernel> Enter the BoM on my site, get a link, put the link on your blog or website.
[07:55:45] <RikusW> what would typical pcb setup fees be ?
[07:55:55] <CapnKernel> Someone comes along, says "cool, I want to make me that"
[07:56:06] <RikusW> sounds good
[07:56:12] <CapnKernel> clicks on the link, comes to me, they pay with Paypal and they're in and out in two minutes
[07:56:22] <CapnKernel> Instead of a painful 10 hours parts sourcing expedition
[07:56:36] <RikusW> talk about painful...
[07:56:38] <CapnKernel> Meanwhile I give a cut of the proceeds back to you
[07:56:51] <CapnKernel> You know, as a hacker, I wasted too much time finding parts.
[07:57:03] <CapnKernel> I see solving this problem as an opportunity.
[07:57:10] <RikusW> That can be time consuming...
[07:58:02] <RikusW> CapnKernel: do you accept skrill/moneybookers too ?
[07:58:25] <Steffanx> RikusW still has no paypal?
[07:58:42] <Steffanx> *has still
[07:58:47] <RikusW> no
[07:58:57] <RikusW> gave up on that
[07:58:58] <CapnKernel> RikusW: I'll accept anything that looks sensible, suggestions welcome
[07:59:26] <CapnKernel> At the moment, I have to pass on the 5% paypal charges to my customers. I wish I didn't have to
[07:59:39] <RikusW> have a look at skrill
[07:59:48] <Steffanx> I don't even know it
[08:00:06] <RikusW> vectory told me about it
[08:00:37] <RikusW> there is still about ZAR200 in my moneybookers account, havent tried withdrawing it
[08:01:03] <RikusW> there is about 2Euro withdrawal charge iirc
[08:01:04] <Steffanx> !convert 200ZAR to dollar
[08:01:13] <RikusW> about 20E
[08:01:41] <RikusW> ZAR8 / USD
[08:01:59] <CapnKernel> Can you give me web links?
[08:02:40] <RikusW> moneybookers.com
[08:02:48] <RikusW> but they are converting to skrill
[08:03:08] <Steffanx> Oh, not bad.. moneybookers accepts iDeal too (which is THE way to pay online here in NL)
[08:30:35] * Tom_itx bans Steffanx for encouraging spam
[08:32:19] <Steffanx> If that's what you call spam..
[08:32:28] <Steffanx> Then I don't want to see ANY ebay links anymore..
[08:36:52] <Tom_itx> <Steffanx> Tom_itx isn't here :P
[08:37:14] <Tom_itx> :)
[08:37:27] <RikusW> When the cat is gone the mouse is boss :-P
[08:38:29] <Steffanx> I knew you were going to complain about it anyway Tom_itx :)
[08:38:54] <Steffanx> No it's "Wanneer de kant van huis is, dansen de muizen op tafel" RikusW
[08:38:57] <Steffanx> *kat
[08:39:38] <RikusW> lol
[08:40:00] * Tom_itx does a dance
[08:40:21] <RikusW> "Wanneer die kat weg is, is die muis baas"
[08:42:26] <RikusW> Steffanx: I've heard that mixing Afrikaans and Nederlands can result in some embarrasing situations :-P
[08:44:14] <Steffanx> Translating Dutch/Afrikaas to english is sometimes even more embarrassing :P
[08:44:45] <RikusW> so far you're doing a good job at it ;)
[08:45:42] <Steffanx> Nah i mean things like "Wanneer de kant van huis is, dansen de muizen op tafel"
[08:47:13] <RikusW> When the cat isn't home the mouse is on the table ?
[08:48:11] <Steffanx> dance on the table
[08:50:31] <Steffanx> Where's Jan- nowadays? She's Mrs. offtopic
[09:42:25] <CapnKernel> RikusW: moneybookers/skrill looks good
[09:42:55] <RikusW> good to know
[09:44:36] <CapnKernel> I especially like the way it shifts the onus of the transfer fee onto the buyer.
[09:45:00] <CapnKernel> I can sell something for what it costs, rather than having to fudge in the Paypal tax
[09:45:29] <CapnKernel> I get the feeling that explaining that Paypal tax to customers makes them uncomfortable
[09:45:44] <CapnKernel> No-one likes surprises about what the true cost of something ends up being
[09:45:49] <CapnKernel> Case in point: Car rentals
[09:46:00] <CapnKernel> They advertise a base rate, and by the time you're done, it's twice that.
[09:47:38] <RikusW> yeah
[09:52:11] <mrfrenzy> does moneybookers have any buyer protection?
[09:52:46] <mrfrenzy> CapnKernel: best would be if you get an account in any european bank. then everyone in EU can send you money fast and fee-less (those that trust you ,the rest will use paypal)
[09:52:54] <RikusW> there is something like that
[09:53:31] <RikusW> they have a long and fairly strict agreement
[09:53:37] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: You mean like if you pay for something using it, and the something never comes or is faulty or whatever, you can get your money back? Like a credit card chargeback?
[09:53:47] <mrfrenzy> yes, you can do that with paypal
[09:54:05] <CapnKernel> I can't see anything similar with skrill
[09:54:24] <mrfrenzy> indeed, it's mostly for sending money to people you know personally
[09:54:31] <mrfrenzy> or for poker sites
[09:54:34] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: Unless you have a good idea, it's going to be hard for me to open an EU account
[09:54:48] <CapnKernel> There's integration between Skrill and zen-cart
[09:54:51] <CapnKernel> I will try that out
[09:54:57] <mrfrenzy> I think anyone can open an account in belgium for example
[09:55:12] <CapnKernel> Do you have to be present? How do they authenticate you?
[09:55:26] <CapnKernel> Then what happens with taxes and financial reporting?
[09:55:30] <CapnKernel> Sounds messy
[09:55:50] <CapnKernel> Belgium: Would you like fries with that :-)
[09:56:31] <mrfrenzy> CapnKernel: something like this http://www.ehow.com/how_6686718_open-european-bank-account.html
[09:56:49] <mrfrenzy> you will still pay taxes in china/australia/wherever your company is based
[09:57:22] <CapnKernel> I pay company tax in HK, but no import or export duty
[09:57:37] <mrfrenzy> I have a supplier in russia, when I pay him I send euros to an account in germany
[09:57:51] <mrfrenzy> on his invoices it's all russian company stuff
[09:59:03] <mrfrenzy> it's just a tip. next time I shop from you I would be happy to somehow pay directly without the paypal fees ;)
[09:59:25] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: I appreciate the feedback, it's on my list of things to do
[10:00:32] <mrfrenzy> it will also look very nice on your checkout thingy, select payment options: 1) pay with euros to our german account (free) 2) pay with $AU to our AU account (free) 3) pay with credit card through paypal (5%)
[10:00:50] <CapnKernel> Yep
[10:00:50] <mrfrenzy> very easy to implement in your shop so the appropriate fee is added to invoice and you don't have to worry about it
[10:00:53] <CapnKernel> For sure
[10:01:32] <CapnKernel> The question then becomes how I bring that money to China to pay my suppliers (and staff at some future time), and how I can send money to my family in Australia
[10:02:03] <mrfrenzy> you transfer it to your AU account or your china account
[10:02:11] <mrfrenzy> there is a fee of like 15e per transfer
[10:02:33] <CapnKernel> A wire/telegraphic transfer?
[10:02:36] <mrfrenzy> yes
[10:02:39] <mrfrenzy> takes about 5 days
[10:02:51] <mrfrenzy> so you do that once a week, once a month whatever
[10:02:58] <CapnKernel> Hmm
[10:03:02] * CapnKernel is thinking
[10:03:14] <mrfrenzy> (don't quote me exactly on times and fees)
[10:03:21] <CapnKernel> There's no doubt I'm keen to avoid the Paypal tax
[10:03:31] <mrfrenzy> if you find a bank which have branches in both countries the transfer might be free
[10:03:40] <mrfrenzy> indeed, it is very easy for a seller to be screwed by paypal
[10:03:56] <CapnKernel> Yes, my mate who does my shipping swears at them constantly
[10:04:18] <CapnKernel> I tried that two country trick with HSBC, which is based in HK and has branches in Australia
[10:04:28] <CapnKernel> Nope. Seems they are connected in name only, like a franchise
[10:04:38] <mrfrenzy> okay
[10:04:54] <CapnKernel> I don't want to leave China!
[10:04:54] <mrfrenzy> I can check which bank the russian uses
[10:04:58] <CapnKernel> Thanks
[10:05:02] <mrfrenzy> they should like foreigners ;)
[10:06:02] <CapnKernel> I have to allow for the possibility that in a week from now, China won't let me back in.
[10:06:08] <CapnKernel> What do I do then?
[10:06:16] <CapnKernel> Go back home?
[10:06:18] <mrfrenzy> that would seriously suck :(
[10:06:21] <mrfrenzy> Bank Of Cyprus (Greece)
[10:06:26] <CapnKernel> Understatement
[10:06:29] <mrfrenzy> SWIFT/BIC: BCYPGRAA
[10:06:48] <CapnKernel> I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I'm staying right away from anything with Greece in the name right about now.
[10:06:56] <mrfrenzy> haha, good point ;)
[10:07:02] <CapnKernel> I have no wish to throw away half a year's worth of hard work and family money
[10:07:06] <mrfrenzy> for some reason I thought it was germany
[10:07:30] <CapnKernel> When I am close to making it work, and it still seems like a such a good idea.
[10:07:52] <CapnKernel> I haven't needed to pivot so far, only work out ways to get stuff going in a phased manner
[10:07:56] <mrfrenzy> what are the odds to fix it if they don't let you in?
[10:08:06] <CapnKernel> Low.
[10:08:19] <CapnKernel> You can buy black market visas, but if you get caught, you are in serious trouble
[10:08:27] <mrfrenzy> obviously
[10:08:29] <CapnKernel> They're also damn expensive
[10:08:34] <mrfrenzy> could you find similar suppliers in HK?
[10:08:45] <CapnKernel> And right about now, when my name goes through the computer, it lights up like a christmas tree
[10:09:00] <CapnKernel> HK doesn't have Huaqiang Bei, the market
[10:09:12] <CapnKernel> I'm wondering if Taiwan is an option.
[10:09:57] <mrfrenzy> btw, your paypal invoice said "service" I don't think they like that when you are infact selling goods
[10:10:13] <CapnKernel> Who is they?
[10:10:17] <mrfrenzy> paypal
[10:10:24] <CapnKernel> They haven't told me about it
[10:10:43] <CapnKernel> And to be honest, I consider my business more as a service than a goods outfit
[10:10:46] <mrfrenzy> they don't tell you anything, just take your money on technicalities found in between the fine print
[10:11:09] <CapnKernel> Tell me, when you go to a movie, if you paid with paypal, is that a good or a service?
[10:11:33] <mrfrenzy> service
[10:11:46] <CapnKernel> But you're getting something tangible, the ticket
[10:11:52] <mrfrenzy> if you buy a dvd though, that is a goods
[10:11:57] <CapnKernel> For sure
[10:12:06] <mrfrenzy> the ticket is just your proof of entrance
[10:12:18] <CapnKernel> True, but it's tangible
[10:12:37] <CapnKernel> If I buy tickets to a u2 concert online from a private seller, is that a service or a good?
[10:13:59] <CapnKernel> What I want to sell is not components, but the convenience of not having to do everything yourself.
[10:14:08] <CapnKernel> You're buying your own time back
[10:14:38] <CapnKernel> In that sense, it's a service. Yes there are parts, but this tangible aspect is no different to the movie ticket.
[10:15:21] <Tom_itx> is your visa up soon?
[10:15:45] <CapnKernel> It got cancelled due to a fuckup (there's no other word for it) by the local police station.
[10:15:50] <CapnKernel> I must leave China
[10:16:28] <CapnKernel> If you're keen, you can read the sordid details here: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36854-check-dates-carefully-or-you-may-lose-your-visa/
[10:16:57] <Tom_itx> they gonna let you come back?
[10:18:28] <CapnKernel> That's the question.
[10:18:35] <CapnKernel> Likely yes, but a non-zero chance of no.
[10:19:05] <CapnKernel> The police station wrote the wrong must-leave-by date on my form, and I stupidly trusted it
[10:19:05] <Tom_itx> don't push it so close next time :)
[10:19:33] <CapnKernel> Thanks Tim
[10:19:34] <CapnKernel> Tom
[10:19:38] <Tom_itx> tip: if you want something done right do it yourself
[10:19:43] <CapnKernel> (My youngest son is Tim)
[10:20:12] <Tom_itx> i know for a fact you can't buy good help here for any price
[10:20:21] <CapnKernel> My schedule is spend 3 months here, 1 month back home
[10:20:40] <CapnKernel> I'm flying back to Australia in April. But if I can't get back into China that would be wasted
[10:21:04] <CapnKernel> The airline rang me up yesterday: "We made a mistake in the timetable, your flight will arrive half an hour later. Can you accept this?"
[10:21:14] <CapnKernel> I said, "no! I want a full refund!"
[10:21:37] <CapnKernel> That way I have cash in hand no matter what happens :-)
[10:21:46] <mrfrenzy> that's atleast some luck ;)
[10:22:04] <CapnKernel> It's blatantly taking advantage of their mistake :-)
[10:22:28] <mrfrenzy> re the service/goods part, yes it's a service, but tecnically since you are embedding the service price in the goods price it all counts as goods
[10:22:43] <mrfrenzy> it would be different if you charged X $ per hour of your time, and then net prices on the components
[10:22:49] <mrfrenzy> then it would be a service
[10:23:10] <CapnKernel> Or if I sold the parts at a nominal $1, then the rest of the bill was my running-around-finding-parts service
[10:23:22] <mrfrenzy> yeah
[10:23:39] <CapnKernel> I might do that. It may also make it easier for packages to clear customs.
[10:24:02] <mrfrenzy> not that it matters much normally, but someone might say they paid for a service and didn't get it
[10:24:08] <CapnKernel> Y'all, put your hand up if you like paying customs for the value of your import...
[10:24:18] <mrfrenzy> you say you shipped some goods, but there is "service" on the invoice
[10:24:25] <mrfrenzy> so the customer will get his money back from paypal
[10:24:35] <CapnKernel> A bit hard to claim in this case, as them parts didn't jump into the envelop by themselves
[10:25:09] <mrfrenzy> they almost always judge in the buyers advantage, look on youtube and elsewhere for horror stories
[10:25:27] <CapnKernel> Yeah no shortage of websites where burned merchants hang out
[10:25:53] <CapnKernel> There's no Paypal or government regulation that says you can't have multiple paypal accounts
[10:26:34] <Tom_itx> just like any other banking institution
[10:26:58] <CapnKernel> That's what my friend does
[10:27:09] <Tom_itx> why does he need multiple accounts?
[10:27:28] <mrfrenzy> sure, but the problem is if you have linked your paypal account to your bank account (in order to withdraw money), they can take money back from your account if you get in a dispute
[10:28:02] <Tom_itx> if i have any i'm concerned with, i leave the funds there until i'm sure
[10:28:12] <CapnKernel> Yep
[10:28:36] <Tom_itx> i know ppl despise paypal but for me it works since my venture is so small
[10:28:36] <CapnKernel> Because Paypal kick up a fuss so often that he needs to minimise the fallout
[10:28:45] <CapnKernel> My buddy employs 20 people.
[10:29:15] <Tom_itx> on my books i just deduct it as part of the shipping and handling fees
[10:29:29] <CapnKernel> Yeah
[10:30:44] <Tom_itx> has business been brisk for you so far?
[10:31:26] <Tom_itx> i know when laen started his board service he was doing one a month, now he does one every 4 or so days
[10:31:40] <Tom_itx> took a while to get to that point
[10:32:13] <Tom_itx> but he does a whole pannel at a time which i'm sure gets him a better rate
[10:32:14] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: No, but intentionally so
[10:32:29] <CapnKernel> As you know, accepting a board is a manual process
[10:32:42] <CapnKernel> Once I automate it, I can let more people know about it
[10:32:58] <CapnKernel> My customers at the moment are #avr folks, and some Australian hackerspaces.
[10:33:53] <CapnKernel> People who can tolerate a problem because they want to help another hacker, and who know I'm a real person who will make sure everything ends up right.
[10:34:02] <Tom_itx> one thing i don't like about his besides the color is the tab routing
[10:34:06] <CapnKernel> Smile, you guys are my test market
[10:34:15] <Tom_itx> makes it hard for the boards to fit my jig for paste
[10:34:32] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: I'd be interested in your comments when your boards arrive
[10:34:44] <Tom_itx> i don't mask those
[10:34:48] <Tom_itx> i do em by hand
[10:34:50] <Tom_itx> not much on it
[10:34:50] <CapnKernel> I see
[10:35:04] <Tom_itx> not worth buying a stencil for
[10:35:14] <CapnKernel> Those were probably v-scored rather than milled out
[10:35:16] <Tom_itx> and i forgot to include it on my last batch or maybe i would have
[10:35:31] <Tom_itx> no doubt
[10:35:31] <Tom_itx> they're too small to route
[10:35:41] <CapnKernel> Do you or anyone have any comments about the usability of batchpcb?
[10:35:54] <CapnKernel> Their website
[10:35:54] <Tom_itx> i don't use em anymore
[10:35:59] <CapnKernel> Oh?
[10:36:17] <Tom_itx> nothing personal
[10:36:38] <CapnKernel> Price? Board quality? Some sort of hassle?
[10:36:49] <Tom_itx> iirc it was price
[10:37:13] <Tom_itx> they were using GP so i decided to go straight to GP instead
[10:37:14] <CapnKernel> I see.
[10:37:19] <Tom_itx> now GP is higher than itead
[10:37:21] <mrfrenzy> CapnKernel: when you get going you should send some samples to dave jones and you'll get some publicity
[10:37:30] <Tom_itx> so last time i used itead
[10:37:31] <CapnKernel> Interesting idea
[10:37:55] <mrfrenzy> he loves to review quality of pcb services
[10:38:12] <CapnKernel> itead and seeed have set the high bar for value, if you can live with their limitations
[10:38:12] <mrfrenzy> and talks about it on the podcast a lot
[10:38:14] <CapnKernel> I think I'd wait a bit before doing that
[10:38:29] <mrfrenzy> yeah you probably should automate stuff first ;)
[10:38:33] <Tom_itx> long as i plan ahead the time doesn't bother me
[10:38:43] <Tom_itx> and if i don't, shame on me
[10:38:47] <CapnKernel> Get some more customer feedback and take it on board
[10:38:55] <mrfrenzy> yep
[10:39:02] <CapnKernel> Yeah, I have a project pipeline too, or at least I do when I'm in Australia
[10:39:08] <Tom_itx> i did send you the wrong board file but i can still use it
[10:39:20] <CapnKernel> Oh I'm sorry to hear that.
[10:39:24] <Tom_itx> i don't know where the hell the other one is
[10:39:35] <Tom_itx> unless i modded it and decided this was better
[10:39:44] <CapnKernel> See the automation I'm working on has "do what I mean" mode, and it would have picked that up :-)
[10:39:54] <CapnKernel> The board factory guys are very responsive
[10:39:59] <CapnKernel> I had lunch with them the other day
[10:40:03] <Tom_itx> no it wouldn't pick this up
[10:40:23] <Tom_itx> i've called GP before and fixed stuff
[10:40:41] <Tom_itx> err emailed
[10:40:53] <Tom_itx> long as you get it before it hits the factory you're ok
[10:42:49] <CapnKernel> I have been talking with the company about a SOAP interface to their ordering system
[10:43:04] <CapnKernel> So I can inject customer orders directly into their system
[10:43:12] <CapnKernel> And give you guys job progress updates :-)
[10:43:26] <Tom_itx> bump us to the front of the line :)
[10:44:17] <CapnKernel> Why of course! :-)
[10:44:38] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: Boards like yours get back to me in 3-4 days, can't complain
[10:45:02] <mrfrenzy> sweet
[10:53:56] <CapnKernel> Anyway, seems my brain isn't going to last until the #avr peak over the next few hours
[10:54:03] <CapnKernel> I'll catch up in the morning :-)
[10:54:27] <mrfrenzy> cya
[10:54:50] <CapnKernel> Good night all
[11:23:21] <amee2k> hmm
[11:23:45] <amee2k> how good are aftermarket LED kits for maglite AAs?
[11:24:24] <mrfrenzy> it's probably cheaper and better to buy a new light...
[11:24:50] <mrfrenzy> unless you have some affection for maglites ;)
[11:24:57] <amee2k> i've got an old 2AA but i don't feel like buying bulbs for it
[11:25:13] <amee2k> and LED kits start at ~10EUR, including end cap with built in switch
[11:25:57] <amee2k> i'm considering getting a kit for it and using it to replace the piece of no-name crap i keep in my car
[11:26:13] <amee2k> http://www.ebay.de/itm/LED-Upgrade-Mini-Maglite-2-X-AA-Cell-Niteize-inkl-Schalter-NEU-/120860462437 << like these
[11:28:00] <mrfrenzy> for the same price I would get https://www.fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_420&products_id=2470
[11:28:47] <amee2k> the fenix is 25EUR :P
[11:28:54] <mrfrenzy> no
[11:28:58] <mrfrenzy> $22
[11:29:11] <mrfrenzy> $<EUR
[11:29:21] <amee2k> show me where you see it for 10EUR
[11:29:26] <amee2k> shipped.
[11:29:37] <mrfrenzy> your thing is 16 eur shipped
[11:29:48] <amee2k> 16 != 10
[11:29:57] <mrfrenzy> that fenix is $22 shipped
[11:30:13] <amee2k> i saw that led kit for err... 10.49 or something earlier with free shipping
[11:30:25] <amee2k> i just linked to the ebay page because it had a better pic
[11:30:28] <mrfrenzy> that's not what you linked ;)
[11:30:37] <mrfrenzy> anyways, it's 16.76 eur
[11:30:43] <amee2k> where?
[11:30:48] <mrfrenzy> but sure if you like the maglite why not convert it
[11:30:51] <mrfrenzy> on the page I linked
[11:30:59] <mrfrenzy> $22 = 16.76 EUR
[11:31:23] <amee2k> is that a US store?
[11:31:45] <mrfrenzy> yes
[11:32:11] <amee2k> then it is ~100EUR because you need to add the cost for a credit card too
[11:32:47] <mrfrenzy> sorry, but I keep forgetting that you can survive without a credit card
[11:32:51] <amee2k> i have yet to see a US store accepting money transfers for orders from non-us states
[11:33:23] <amee2k> pretty much everyone in this country takes real money
[11:33:41] <mrfrenzy> they do accept money transfers and money orders
[11:33:45] <mrfrenzy> checkout payment methods
[11:33:52] <CapnKernel> Haha, a friend of mine and her husband own the fenix factory :-)
[11:34:02] <CapnKernel> She is a lovely lady
[11:34:06] <mrfrenzy> sweet, tell them they rock
[11:34:10] <CapnKernel> She was at English corner today
[11:34:14] <mrfrenzy> I have sent them hundreds of dollars ;)
[11:34:18] <CapnKernel> Haha, I will
[11:34:40] <amee2k> yeah, and they bill you 35$ processing fee if you pay by money transfer/order
[11:34:50] <mrfrenzy> now, quickly close webpage before I oder more stuff ;)
[11:35:07] <CapnKernel> LOL
[11:35:11] <amee2k> so we're down from 100EUR to 57$ now
[11:40:41] <amee2k> mrfrenzy: got an opinion on the E01?
[11:41:00] <amee2k> that one is about the same price range as the conversion kits
[11:41:21] <mrfrenzy> I have one, excellent EDC for when you don't need a long throw
[11:42:11] <mrfrenzy> keep that with me in summer and in the winter instead an P1DCE
[11:42:12] <amee2k> it is just for backup use in the car so i'd say usual range is just a few meters. maybe 7-10m tops
[11:43:25] <mrfrenzy> I haven't used it in months so can't really remember the range, and it's not here atm
[11:44:04] <amee2k> their PD series is hot, but expensive
[11:44:21] <mrfrenzy> yep, I have a P3D on the desk
[11:44:30] <amee2k> also, /me <3 tail cap switches
[11:44:32] <mrfrenzy> similar to PD32
[11:46:22] <amee2k> nice
[11:46:30] <amee2k> too bad they only come in black though
[11:46:54] <mrfrenzy> if you buy a light, the next month they will come out with one with higher output
[11:46:55] <mrfrenzy> nver fails
[11:47:01] <amee2k> lol
[11:47:22] <amee2k> think i'll consider the E01 though, so thanks for the pointer :)
[11:48:21] <mrfrenzy> hope you like it ;)
[11:48:29] <mrfrenzy> my next light will be something entirely different http://www.dealextreme.com/p/fandyfire-stl-v2-cree-xm-lt6-5-mode-1000-lumen-white-3-led-flashlight-black-2-x-18650-91136
[11:49:30] <amee2k> lol
[11:49:42] <mrfrenzy> or possibly this http://www.dealextreme.com/p/trustfire-cree-z5-xm-lt6-5-mode-1600-lumen-memory-white-led-convex-lens-flashlight-set-2x18650-92037
[11:49:50] <mrfrenzy> that's ridiculously cheap
[11:49:59] <amee2k> well, one other thing that i've been scratching my head over on end is why noone seems to make these hand crank flashlights with LEDs
[11:50:11] <mrfrenzy> there are millions of them!
[11:50:15] <amee2k> and i don't mean the shitty 5$ ones but decently built
[11:50:25] <mrfrenzy> aah
[11:50:34] <mrfrenzy> maybe cause it's mostly a toy?
[11:50:41] <amee2k> i mean, with bulbs they used to be little more than gadgets
[11:50:41] <mrfrenzy> I don't see a practical use for it
[11:51:01] <amee2k> but high efficiency LED drivers and battery managers would make them a lot more practical
[11:51:04] <mrfrenzy> I would want one with autocharge though
[11:51:10] <mrfrenzy> like you have in rolex watches
[11:51:15] <mrfrenzy> it would charge just by carrying it around
[11:51:34] <amee2k> yeah, that would be neat in the car... it float charges while driving >_>
[11:51:40] <mrfrenzy> yeah!
[11:51:49] <mrfrenzy> wonder if it's possible
[11:52:04] <mrfrenzy> but the thing is, a CR123 will last 10+ years
[11:52:08] <amee2k> possible probably... just someone's gotta do it
[11:52:09] <mrfrenzy> so not much need for float charge ;)
[11:53:07] <amee2k> the crank ones probably got such a bad image due to the cheap crap ones that none of the big names wants to have one in their product range :P
[11:53:18] <mrfrenzy> http://gizmodo.com/5588618/self+charging-batteries-powered-by-vibration
[11:53:48] <amee2k> same with the shitty BMW hybrid thing... the first one they had was so shit that they desperately tried to prevent people from calling it a hybrid
[11:54:27] <amee2k> and instead "electrically assisted driving" or something funny like that... because they were afraid of putting people off the "hybrid" name when they finally have a decent one
[11:54:30] <amee2k> >_>
[11:54:45] <mrfrenzy> yeah, batteries are still too expensive and heavy
[11:55:11] <mrfrenzy> The average output of the AA-size generator is 10 to 180mW (frequency: 4-8Hz).
[11:56:04] <amee2k> neat
[11:56:32] <mrfrenzy> I don't see anyone selling them though
[11:56:35] <mrfrenzy> it's almost been 2 years
[11:56:38] <amee2k> hahaaa... huge LOL at the vibrator pic on the battery article
[11:56:42] <mrfrenzy> maybe duracell bought out the patent and scrapped it
[11:56:59] <mrfrenzy> HAHA
[11:57:09] <amee2k> you didn't see it :P
[11:57:11] <amee2k> ?
[11:57:28] <mrfrenzy> no, didn't scroll that far
[11:57:32] <mrfrenzy> never read the crappy comments
[11:57:45] <mrfrenzy> the tech-on article was better
[11:57:58] <amee2k> i just wanted to see if there was more text below or if that was the entire article
[11:58:10] <mrfrenzy> check the link at the end of text
[12:00:58] <amee2k> i was wondering some day if small high efficiency solar cells wouldn't work for a similar job though
[12:01:42] <amee2k> i'd expect enough juice to keep a remote control powered
[12:02:25] <amee2k> or a laptop that can supplement battery power from a solar cell on the top side of the lid
[12:02:46] <mrfrenzy> for a flashlight it should be no problem, since it can already power a calculator
[12:02:55] <mrfrenzy> s/flashlight/remote control
[12:02:58] <mrfrenzy> sorry gettting tired
[12:03:29] <amee2k> hehe
[12:03:46] <mrfrenzy> going to go and hookup my NEs
[12:03:48] <mrfrenzy> cya later
[12:04:00] <amee2k> well, remote control has higher peak consumption but at very low duty cycle
[12:04:17] <amee2k> so you'd still need a supercap or small rechargable battery to buffer it
[12:04:26] <mrfrenzy> yep, supercap for sure
[12:04:46] <mrfrenzy> doubt those small solar cells can charge a battery
[12:05:11] <amee2k> they do in shitty 5$ solar LED garden lights
[12:05:20] <mrfrenzy> but they are huge
[12:05:55] <amee2k> i once took one apart, it had two 5mm amber LEDs and two AA cells and a tiny circuit board with a couple transistors and an LDR
[12:11:46] <mrfrenzy> actually, that looks plenty enough for a remote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE-wEOQq-M8
[12:18:48] <mrfrenzy> btw, CapnKernel: do you do batteries in large volume?
[12:57:47] <carp3> what's wrong with this code ? it just read temperature once. I have to reset AVR (with programmer or by power )to update temperature. (LM75+7Segment) http://pastebin.com/dUAa5rKP
[13:01:38] <amee2k> i have a mild hunch the delay_us calls with arguments >255 don't do what you expect
[13:01:52] <Guest47653> first, it lacks arrays
[13:02:22] <Steffanx> Second izua has to fix his nick
[13:02:26] <Guest47653> and secondly, your i2c routines will hang if the chip stops
[13:02:28] <Guest47653> yeah
[13:02:30] <Guest47653> that too
[13:03:09] <amee2k> any particular reason you declare "number" volatile??
[13:03:55] <carp3> amee2k: i don't any problem with 7segment . i can show any number i want ( <999 )
[13:04:37] <carp3> have*
[13:07:26] <carp3> izua__: what do you mean by "it lacks arrays" which part ?
[13:07:54] <izua__> use something like font[7] to enable the leds to display the value 7
[13:07:59] <amee2k> yeah
[13:08:04] <izua__> and store everything in an array
[13:08:10] <amee2k> to eliminate the huge select
[13:08:50] <izua__> here
[13:08:50] <izua__> http://codepad.org/XMQsZEYc
[13:09:24] <izua__> it's for a common anode version, with the MSB being segment a
[13:09:30] <izua__> you can probably replace it with yours ;P
[13:09:46] <izua__> or just use ~font[x];
[13:13:04] <carp3> damn. problem solved by slowing down while loop ( 300ms delay) ..
[13:14:09] <carp3> i think i have to read temperature with a timer overflow or something ...
[13:19:33] <izua__> the chip probably fscks itself
[13:19:33] <izua__> or stretches the clock
[14:31:22] <Bird|lappy> anyone tried to use an AVR as a "smart" device on a parallel bus before?
[15:24:19] <russruss> Hey, does anyone know anything about USB? I'm trying to get an xmega a4u enumerating as a CDC. I'm using wireshark to trace the packets, and I'm getting as far as the configuration descriptor. I'm connecting to a linux box, and first it asks for configuration with a max size of 9 bytes, which is enough for the device configuration, which gets sent fine. Then, it asks for the configuration descriptor again with the max length set to 10
[15:28:43] <RikusW> why not try using LUFA ?
[15:29:07] <RikusW> just ask abcminiuser if xmega support is released yet
[15:29:29] <RikusW> or try getting atmel demo CDC code
[15:30:42] <RikusW> I've done CDC but it was some time ago...
[15:30:54] <russruss> yeah... I'm working from the arduino avr code
[15:31:00] <russruss> it's not very well architechtured
[15:31:25] <russruss> err atmega
[15:31:25] <russruss> and the usb peripherals are pretty different....
[15:31:48] <RikusW> abcminiuser did say something about adding xmega usb support to LUFA
[15:32:00] <RikusW> you'll have to ask him if its release yet
[15:32:11] <RikusW> seems he isn't around now
[15:32:18] <russruss> well, yeah.. I have to fit into the arduino usb api anyways so I'm not sure LUFA will help
[15:32:38] <russruss> it's a shame there isn't better documentation online for this low level usb stuff
[15:33:04] <RikusW> get the atmel CDC sample source for atmega32u2
[15:33:15] <RikusW> at least it will give you the general idea
[15:33:24] <RikusW> usb.org docs are terrible...
[15:33:47] <RikusW> how good is your avr asm ?
[15:34:10] <RikusW> I have minimal asm cdc code
[15:34:34] <russruss> yeah, I'm sure that would help
[15:34:55] <russruss> the atmel example code is pretty engineered, it's hard to see exactly what's going on because there's so much abstraction
[15:35:28] <russruss> I can at least read asm :-)
[15:36:02] <RikusW> yeah, the atmel source got tooo many defines....
[15:36:06] <RikusW> http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home
[15:36:14] <RikusW> go to the jtag link
[15:36:28] <RikusW> my jtag clone got the sample cdc code
[15:36:46] <RikusW> fits in about 800 bytes
[15:36:50] <RikusW> for m32u2
[15:38:31] <russruss> jtag.asm.bz2?
[15:40:04] <RikusW> think the other one
[15:40:10] <russruss> yeah, got it now
[15:40:10] <RikusW> that one is the disasm of the original jtag mki fw
[15:40:10] <russruss> megau2_cdc.asm yeah
[15:40:13] <RikusW> yep
[15:40:44] <RikusW> you'll probably need the m32u2 datasheet too
[15:41:28] <RikusW> I've thrown out everything not required to make it work, like power management etc
[15:41:37] <RikusW> its the bare essenstials thats left
[15:41:46] <russruss> yeah, I think this'll be really helpful :-)
[15:42:08] <russruss> unfortunately the usb peripheral is quite different on the xmega, but at least this will help with the usb protocol side
[15:42:39] <RikusW> I have the stripped down C code somewhere too
[15:43:10] <RikusW> I first stripped it down in C, then converted to asm, it was like 5kb down to 800 b
[15:43:18] <russruss> haha nice
[15:43:30] <russruss> avr-gcc is not the most space efficient thing :-)
[15:43:40] <RikusW> no
[15:44:03] <RikusW> and it sort of annoyed me too
[15:44:09] <RikusW> sometimes it gets buggy
[15:44:23] <russruss> yeah, avr is a nice and simple asm too
[15:44:28] <RikusW> so I done the entire project on that site in asm
[15:44:55] <russruss> cool :-).
[15:45:17] <RikusW> you can actually compile that code and have a working jtag mki clone
[15:45:23] <RikusW> use AS4 or AS5
[16:23:15] <Fleck> http://makecircuits.com/blog/2009-04-05-high-voltage-parallel-programmer-avr.html << anyone have such thing that works from USB?
[16:28:31] <Fleck> mrfrenzy got schematics? :)
[16:29:13] <mrfrenzy> just one of those regular $8 adapters and an stk500
[16:29:41] <Fleck> i have max232 here
[16:35:37] <RikusW> Fleck: http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home
[16:35:55] <Fleck> right on the button, thx RikusW
[16:36:47] <RikusW> Fleck: I designed it
[16:37:18] <Fleck> nice ;)
[16:37:42] <RikusW> It does need a topboard for HVPP/HVSP
[16:37:56] <RikusW> basically to supply 12V with a ST662
[16:37:58] <Fleck> whats topboard?
[16:38:09] <RikusW> a pcb that fits on top
[16:38:17] <Fleck> aka shield? :D
[16:38:24] <RikusW> yes
[16:38:32] <RikusW> the schematics of the topboard is on the site
[16:38:42] <Fleck> nice
[16:38:58] <RikusW> I sell the bottom board with the m32u2 on it
[16:39:06] <RikusW> with all firmware included
[16:39:10] <RikusW> on the avr
[16:39:17] <Fleck> for?
[16:39:24] <Fleck> i mean - price
[16:39:27] <RikusW> stk500 clone
[16:39:41] <RikusW> 20Euro about + shipping
[16:39:48] <RikusW> ZAR200
[16:39:57] <Fleck> whare are you located?
[16:40:11] <RikusW> South Africa
[16:40:18] <RikusW> I sent vectory a board
[16:40:20] <Fleck> ouch :D
[16:40:22] <RikusW> he is in Germany
[16:40:40] <Fleck> and shipping price was?
[16:40:46] <Fleck> i am near germany
[16:40:50] <RikusW> about 2.5E
[16:40:54] <Fleck> lol
[16:40:59] <Fleck> i ll think about it! :)
[16:41:04] <Fleck> maybe will order from you!
[16:41:32] <RikusW> What to you need HVPP for ?
[16:41:44] <Fleck> fuses? :D
[16:41:53] <RikusW> on what avr ?
[16:42:20] <Fleck> atmega8, and other ;D
[16:42:22] <Fleck> similar
[16:42:23] <RikusW> and what fuse did you mess up ?
[16:42:31] <RikusW> rstdsbl ?
[16:42:38] <RikusW> clock fuses ?
[16:42:48] <Fleck> rst
[16:43:07] <Fleck> clock fuses i nailed ;D
[16:43:30] <Fleck> i mean - not a problem
[16:43:32] <RikusW> if you supply a clock you could get ISP working
[16:43:41] <RikusW> rstdsbl is a problem....
[16:44:29] <RikusW> Tom also got a programmer, but its ISP only
[16:44:42] <Fleck> i have ISP programmer too
[16:45:30] <Fleck> ok, have to go, bye and thx RikusW! :)
[16:45:40] <RikusW> bye
[17:30:20] <Tom_itx> isp pdi and tpi
[17:30:58] <Bird|lappy> has anyone here tried to get an AVR to act as a slave device on a microprocessor's parallel bus?
[17:31:11] <Bird|lappy> or am I better off just not even trying such shenanigans?
[17:31:39] <Casper> why a parallel bus?
[17:33:35] <Bird|lappy> Casper, well, my other option is to use a PCF8584 to give the microprocessor an I2C I/F and then use that to communicate with the uC
[17:38:39] <specing> What MPU are we talking about here?
[17:39:00] <Bird|lappy> the uP is an 8086, heh (don't blame me :P)
[17:39:15] <specing> How fast is it?
[17:39:17] <Casper> ahh I see now why you want parallel....
[17:39:26] <specing> Bird|lappy: FPGA!
[17:39:28] <Bird|lappy> 4.77MHz, aka typical 8086 speed
[17:39:46] <Bird|lappy> specing, name me a current production FPGA with 5V-compatible (not just 5V-tolerant) I/Os
[17:40:02] <specing> nonexistant_brand
[17:40:06] <Bird|lappy> :P
[17:40:17] <specing> level converters!
[17:41:47] <Bird|lappy> yeah, yeah...:P
[17:42:04] <specing> I heard TI is selling some 8 bit ones for 10$
[17:42:19] <specing> Sssh...
[17:42:21] <Tom_itx> $10! wtf
[17:42:30] <Tom_itx> converters?
[17:42:40] <Bird|lappy> specing, it's board space that'd be the issue, not cost lol
[17:43:01] <Bird|lappy> I'd need like 3-4 level converter ICs!
[17:43:02] <specing> Bird|lappy: Are you making a credit card sized 8086 computer?
[17:43:16] <Bird|lappy> specing, not that small :P
[17:43:32] <specing> I was thinking about doing that with a 286 :D
[17:43:36] <Bird|lappy> but I'm limited to 2x 5"x6" boards, and I don't want to jam parts too tight as that'd make rework hard
[17:43:53] <specing> I have one in QFP
[17:52:38] <Bird|lappy> also, has anyone here worked with the FT245 at all? I'm trying to figure out how RXF and TXE are supposed to be applied
[18:59:18] <James_Brown> Anyone out there used TWI on the ATtiny48?
[19:00:23] <James_Brown> I'm guessing about the same crowd hangs out here as on #sparkfun but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask both places ...
[19:13:46] <learningc> has anyone played with tft screen?
[20:11:12] <jadew> hey, are there any low power components that have the sole purpose of heating up?
[20:11:40] <learningc> what do you mean?
[20:11:56] <learningc> resistors?
[20:12:07] <jadew> nah, I want to heat up a little radiator
[20:12:21] <learningc> you can use a transistor
[20:12:21] <jadew> basically I'm trying to make something that creates a temperature reference
[20:12:32] <jadew> so I can easily calibrate thermoresistor based stuff
[20:12:39] <vectory_> that doesnt sound easy
[20:12:44] <jadew> yeah, but transistors will need a lot of power to heat up
[20:12:52] <jadew> I thought about that
[20:12:59] <learningc> with the pad os a transistor, you can get good heat transfer
[20:13:26] <jadew> learningc, yeah, but those are power transistors and they usually start heating up properly at high amps
[20:13:30] <jadew> like 1A
[20:13:59] <learningc> jadew: or you can use a linear regulator
[20:14:15] <learningc> there a tiny ones
[20:14:30] <jadew> they het up at low power?
[20:14:34] <learningc> of course
[20:14:38] <jadew> *heat
[20:14:47] <jadew> hmm, will have to look into it
[20:15:25] <learningc> if you get the output low enough, it wil heat up quiclky
[20:15:51] <jadew> sounds like I'll need a variable load
[20:16:18] <jadew> or actually, a constant load and I can vary the current it gets
[20:18:33] <jadew> sounds tricky, I think I'll just go for a power transistor and a 10w 1ohm rezistor
[21:26:25] <James_Brown> Still looking for some help with TWI / I2C on an ATtiny48 ... anyone have any experience?
[21:30:17] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy: Yes I do rechargeables.
[21:35:06] <James_Brown> Anyone played with TWI? I've got problems making two ATtiny48's talk to each other over TWI
[21:54:37] <Tom_itx> James_Brown, i used this once for a RTC chip: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/i2c/
[21:54:55] <Tom_itx> no slave routines that i can remember but it worked for the RTC
[22:04:18] <jadew> anyone tried to extract power from normal radio waves? I'm wondering if it's possible to supply 3.3v @ 20mA+ for about half a second, every 5-10 minutes from that
[22:25:39] <James_Brown> Tom_itx, my issue is with ATtiny; the code I have works on a mega, just not on a tiny
[22:26:54] <Casper> jadew: I've heard of some projects simmilar to that, but need a big antenna
[22:28:55] <jadew> Casper, yeah, I figured only managed to gather about 1V in a 200uF cap in about 10 minutes, with 2 antenas of 1.5m each
[22:29:11] <inflex> yeah, something like a 30~50m long antenna might work
[22:29:22] <CapnKernel> Need some sort of a charge pump arrangement
[22:30:03] * Casper wonders..
[22:30:21] <Casper> if you use 2 capacitors in series, with half wave rectification... wouln't you get more?
[22:30:21] <jadew> would have been nice if it worked with really small antenas, so you could have the antena on the pcb and power something that takes a reading and sends it over radio
[22:30:35] <CapnKernel> I believe there are chips to do this. Google for parasitic power
[22:30:49] <jadew> thanks for the keyword
[22:30:57] <inflex> Yep, there's quite a few parasitic power dev kits
[22:34:51] <CapnKernel> See also "energy harvesting"
[22:36:56] <jadew> interresting, apparently TI is doing a lot on this front
[22:37:59] <CapnKernel> See figure 5: http://cds.linear.com/docs/Design%20Note/DN483.pdf
[22:38:41] <CapnKernel> Based on that design note, be prepared for picowatts of power!
[22:39:13] <jadew> heh
[22:39:31] <jadew> yeah, I don't think I like the idea anymore
[22:39:57] <jadew> might be easier to do it by solar power and charge a big cap over the day
[22:40:11] <jadew> should have enough power to run the thing several times during the night
[22:45:37] <inflex> heck, you'd get more power from a green LED in the sun than a radio antenna likelyu
[22:45:48] <Casper> is there any good handyman here? I need to renew the stairs here... and it's like.... very yucky... http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6994/img3174t.jpg http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9807/img3175q.jpg ← wood, black glue, rubber 1/4", fake leather, carpet...
[22:45:50] <inflex> or even just little silicon light sensors
[22:46:17] <inflex> mmm... classic 80's RGP
[22:46:54] <inflex> Casper: are the steps solid wood? If is, I'd just go right back to that
[22:47:13] * inflex has never been a fan of carpeted stairs
[22:47:14] <Casper> inflex: look like damaged plain 2x10 wood...
[22:47:34] <inflex> Casper: dark-stained will just make it look 'well aged' :)
[22:47:51] <Casper> need to be non-slippy
[22:48:04] <inflex> well, you can get coatings that'll be non-slip
[22:48:16] <inflex> since the stain won't atually for a surface layer
[22:48:59] <inflex> s/for/form/
[22:49:14] <Bird|lappy> yeah
[22:49:20] <Bird|lappy> I'd use a non-slip coating over stained wood
[22:50:40] <inflex> you could be a sadistic bastard and used crushed glass mixed into thick polyurethane gel coat... then when ever people run barefood over the stairs or falls down, they'll be slashed to death
[22:51:25] <Bird|lappy> inflex, if you tumbled the glass post-crush, that'd actually work quite well as a non-slip surface I think
[22:51:52] <inflex> Bird|lappy: I was being evil and thinking "freshly crushed" :p but yes, tumbled glass works quite well, as does quartz
[22:52:21] <Casper> what kind of coating?
[22:52:26] <Casper> paint and sand?
[22:58:39] <Bird|lappy> basic idea, yeah
[23:00:51] <Casper> it won't stick on the current wood, so would need to be changed
[23:01:01] <Casper> currently it's plan "A"... but... :(
[23:01:14] <CapnKernel> Welcome to #avr+home_renovation :-)
[23:01:15] <inflex> you'll certainly have to face off the steps all again back to raw
[23:01:35] <inflex> if you're rich, get them changed for hardwood :D
[23:01:46] <Casper> the glue there is gum like...
[23:02:05] <inflex> oh from the carpet underlay?
[23:02:32] <inflex> yeah, that'll be a bugger - even trying to sand/plane it off will cause serious issues, you might need to actually burn it off with a heatgun (and mask/breathing apparatus)
[23:02:43] <CapnKernel> How about solvents?
[23:02:59] * inflex thinks new steps outright might be easier
[23:03:09] <inflex> or, flip these ones upside down
[23:03:16] <inflex> (since there won't be any gum on the back/undersides
[23:05:12] <Casper> since it's plain 2x10... might aswell replace them...
[23:05:35] <inflex> *nod*
[23:05:54] <inflex> Can you get 2x10 in fingers/sandwich form?
[23:06:00] <inflex> (not sure what you guys call it there)
[23:06:10] <inflex> where it's actually made up of a lot of separate strips
[23:06:31] <inflex> Just thinking plain 2x10 dressed pine is prone to warping
[23:06:52] <inflex> (usually curling across the 10" width)
[23:07:37] <inflex> if I was crazy I'd get 5 lengths of 2x2 and sandwich them to make my own
[23:11:27] <Casper> I guess I'll have to check rona...
[23:11:52] <Casper> paint job is on hold until the stairs are done
[23:14:00] <Bird|lappy> anyone here used the FT245?
[23:14:44] <Bird|lappy> because I am not sure how the flow control signals on that IC work. (trying to interface it to an 80xx-style uP parallel bus)
[23:18:37] <learningc> what pcb house you guys use?
[23:19:34] <Bird|lappy> learningc, Advanced Circuits
[23:19:38] <Bird|lappy> www.4pcb.com
[23:24:33] <CapnKernel> learningc: I provide a PCB fab service
[23:24:47] <CapnKernel> A number of the folks here have used it.
[23:25:07] <learningc> CapnKernel: any link to your website?
[23:33:48] <Tom_itx> us board houses are gonna cost more than chinese
[23:34:28] <Tom_itx> learningc, i've used several places including GP, itead, seeed, batchpcb, laen and CapnKernel's
[23:35:03] <Tom_itx> laen's is good for small prototypes
[23:35:03] <learningc> Tom_itx: which you recommend?
[23:35:28] <Tom_itx> i haven't gotten my boards from CapnKernel yet but i'm sure they're up to chinese standards
[23:35:29] <Bird|lappy> Tom_itx, the nice thing about AC is that I know that if I need to do something fancy, it may not be cheap, but they'll do it.
[23:35:43] <Tom_itx> Bird|lappy, yes i know
[23:35:43] <learningc> Tom_itx: I'm comsidering for production with quick turn around, but not too expensive
[23:36:04] <Tom_itx> learningc, how many do you need?
[23:36:24] <learningc> Tom_itx: maybe 200?
[23:36:26] <Tom_itx> quick and cheap aren't in the same sentence
[23:36:44] <CapnKernel> (learningc and I are talking PM)
[23:36:46] <Tom_itx> itead has a 200 board service for 5cm sq boards
[23:37:05] <Tom_itx> i did 100 with them for $88 shipped and was happy with it
[23:37:14] <learningc> Tom_itx: but can they do 4 layers+?
[23:37:29] <Tom_itx> 4 for sure but not for that price
[23:37:35] <Tom_itx> + i dunno about
[23:37:46] <learningc> ah ok
[23:38:24] <Tom_itx> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=509
[23:40:28] <CapnKernel> learningc, can you see my PM messages?
[23:40:35] <Tom_itx> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=516
[23:40:40] <Tom_itx> there's a 4 layer deal
[23:41:00] <learningc> CapnKernel: yes, sorry I was busy talking to some
[23:41:54] <CapnKernel> ok
[23:46:20] <Bird|lappy> yeah, itead is a bit on the small side for what I'm doing
[23:46:33] <Tom_itx> they have larger deals too
[23:46:40] <Bird|lappy> I meant in terms of size :P
[23:46:47] <Tom_itx> and do metal stencils if you want them
[23:46:57] <Tom_itx> i meant size as well
[23:47:07] <Bird|lappy> yeah, didn't know they'd do cheap stainless steel stencils
[23:47:16] <Bird|lappy> I've got some 3mil Mylar ones from Pololu
[23:47:21] <Tom_itx> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=523
[23:47:33] <Roklobsta> capnkernel: did you say you can get PCBs made?
[23:47:50] <Tom_itx> i get kapton ones from http://www.ohararp.com/Stencils.html
[23:48:02] <Bird|lappy> interesting
[23:48:10] <Tom_itx> he's good to deal with too
[23:48:42] <Roklobsta> mmm, kapton, is there anything it can't do?
[23:48:44] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Stencils/stencils.jpg
[23:49:19] <Tom_itx> qfn is kinda fine but if you mod the pads i think they would come out better than mine did
[23:50:02] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: Yes
[23:50:07] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Stencils/stencil_U4.jpg
[23:50:07] <Tom_itx> that's a qfn
[23:50:07] <Tom_itx> upper right
[23:51:18] <Roklobsta> capn: if i require 4 or more layers with particular thicknesses of FR4 and prepreg for impedance control can this be done?
[23:51:29] <Tom_itx> Bird|lappy, http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=519
[23:51:37] <Tom_itx> there's one larger than 20cm sq
[23:52:12] <Bird|lappy> Tom_itx, yeah, their stencil service seems good
[23:52:31] <Bird|lappy> its just that they couldn't handle some of my PCB needs
[23:52:34] <Roklobsta> apart from being able to solder components with no exposed fleared leads what advantage is there to home reflow vs just soldering when you put the part on?
[23:52:41] <Roklobsta> flared
[23:53:54] <Roklobsta> all the smt work i have done has been fine so long as its been done with a microscop
[23:54:01] <Roklobsta> and quick
[23:54:05] <CapnKernel> Reflow saves time a little
[23:54:43] <Tom_itx> pick n place takes longer than reflowing
[23:55:13] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: The board thicknesses I offer are 0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.6 and 2.0.
[23:55:20] <Roklobsta> kewl
[23:55:41] <Roklobsta> do you have such info on your URL? Please send me your URL again so I can flippin' bookmark it.
[23:55:53] <Bird|lappy> Roklobsta, the main advantage of reflow is as you said: handling parts that don't have exposed leads (DFN/QFN to some extent, BGA, and thermally enhanced QFP/TSSOP/...)
[23:56:38] <Roklobsta> i have never done manual reflow but it seems extra fiddle to place parts and hope you don't jostle placed compoents while you are loading others or moving it to the even.
[23:56:39] <Roklobsta> oeb
[23:56:46] <Roklobsta> oven
[23:56:46] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: Alas, I don't yet have the website for board ordering up and running. It'll be here soon.
[23:56:49] <Roklobsta> damn you Carlon Draught
[23:57:17] <Tom_itx> unless you get deported :(
[23:57:21] <Roklobsta> OK, everythign i have hand soldered has been solderable by hand.
[23:58:46] <Tom_itx> problem with qfn and smaller is they all have a center pad that needs reflow to get stuck down
[23:59:16] <Bird|lappy> yep
[23:59:18] <Tom_itx> unless you get crazy with vias under it
[23:59:32] <Bird|lappy> does the same hold true for the thermal pad on DPAKs and friends?
[23:59:46] <Bird|lappy> or are those OK to hand solder by feeding from the exposed portion of the tab?
[23:59:51] <Tom_itx> i did some dpak but it's alot easier to reflow them