#avr | Logs for 2012-03-04

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[02:07:06] <Sgt_Lemming> afternooing all, soldering workshop we held at HSBNE went well today, photos will be uploaded soon
[02:15:19] <Roklobsta> HSBNE?
[02:23:10] <Sgt_Lemming> photos of the soldering workshop for those who wanted to see em. https://picasaweb.google.com/115277388924201849210/SolderingWorkshop#5715948934694516146
[02:31:34] <rue_bed> Hacker / Sentient Being Novice Education
[02:33:43] <Sgt_Lemming> rofl
[02:33:48] <Sgt_Lemming> nice rue_bed
[02:33:59] * Sgt_Lemming adds that to the list of backronyms
[02:34:57] <rue_bed> ooo, big space
[02:35:11] <Sgt_Lemming> 300m²
[02:35:28] <Sgt_Lemming> we are looking at moving to one nearly 4x the size on 4000m² of land
[02:35:46] <rue_bed> badly insulated, everyone wearing t-shirts, must be austallia?
[02:36:18] <rue_bed> yes, I see big round plugs
[02:36:57] <Sgt_Lemming> it's a like 40 year old warehouse
[02:37:05] <rue_bed> wait no
[02:37:08] <rue_bed> no beer
[02:37:09] <Sgt_Lemming> and we are in QLD, so don't really need insulation
[02:37:23] <rue_bed> queensland
[02:37:36] <rue_bed> on the upper right part of aus
[02:37:46] <rue_bed> 1c is a bad winter
[02:38:45] <rue_bed> cool, a hacker chick
[02:38:46] <Sgt_Lemming> yup
[02:39:01] <Sgt_Lemming> we have a few hacker chick regulars
[02:39:16] <Sgt_Lemming> tam, nikki, nel, rachael
[02:39:28] <rue_bed> wtf, coke? where is the beer?
[02:40:10] <rue_bed> and sprite
[02:40:28] <rue_bed> but no beer, and haha, no rootbeer in aus!
[02:40:28] <Sgt_Lemming> beer + soldering novices == bad idea
[02:41:33] <rue_bed> maybe it was the crowd, but I saw little nobody there without a beer in their hand
[02:41:47] <rue_bed> verry close to nsw?
[02:42:21] <Sgt_Lemming> brisbane is about 2 hours from the NSW border
[02:42:30] <Sgt_Lemming> 2 hours drive that is
[02:42:31] <rue_bed> oh, yea
[02:42:41] <rue_bed> I think rif and me were there
[02:42:52] <rue_bed> thats where his kid was living I think
[02:43:52] <rue_bed> I came into sidney, met theBear, went up to coffs haurbor, up to just in queens, and back
[02:47:26] <Sgt_Lemming> kk
[03:32:43] <jadew> hey, I made a crystal oscillator and I'm not sure it's generating the same wave when my probe is off, because I notice different oscillations between VCC and GND with the probe on and off
[03:32:59] <jadew> is there a way to figure out if it's doing what it's supposed to?
[03:34:33] <ureif> where are you probing ?
[03:35:05] <ureif> if you're probing on the feedback circuit then the probe will obviously change the frequency.
[03:35:30] <jadew> well, it's connected to one of the caps
[03:36:16] <jadew> http://hlrinternational.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oscxtal1.gif
[03:36:25] <jadew> I'm probing before C4
[03:36:35] <ureif> should be fine there.
[03:36:56] <ureif> no, it shouldn't.
[03:36:59] <ureif> probe after C4.
[03:37:15] <jadew> I don't have C4 lol
[03:37:28] <jadew> because I need the wave to be from 0 to VCC
[03:38:41] <jadew> just added C4, if I probe after it, the VCC-GND wave changes
[03:45:14] <jadew> seems to change when I measure the frequency with the multimeter as well, guess all I can do is hope it will behave properly in a real circuit
[03:45:26] <jadew> I'd probably use a 100x probe here, right?
[04:56:28] <amee2k> jadew: output of these single transistor circuits is not very stable with load so you may want a buffer on the output anyway
[04:56:55] <amee2k> i built a few like that too, and they don't swing the whole way from rail to rail anyway iirc
[04:57:13] <amee2k> how about using the CMOS inverter based kind of oscillator?
[05:31:03] <jadew> amee2k, managed to make it swing almost rail to rail
[05:31:15] <jadew> I don't have an inverter ic
[05:32:34] <jadew> do you think it would work well as a clock source tho (the current circuit I have)?
[05:47:42] <OndraSter> I was just talking to myself "I should test out watchdog on my project..." and out of nothing, music in VLC stopped and I got that new smiley-faced Win8 BSOD with "DAC_WATCHDOG_TIMEOUT" error lol
[05:48:07] <amee2k> ...
[05:49:52] <mrfrenzy> it's such signs that caused mass murder of witches etc ;)
[05:50:52] <amee2k> does redmond have a history of people being burned at the stakes?
[05:51:13] <OndraSter> I am pretty sure it was that audio driver
[05:51:19] <OndraSter> I haven't installed single driver myself
[05:51:30] <OndraSter> and it didn't complain about anything
[05:51:55] <OndraSter> and somebody has stolen from me two LED matrixes :(
[05:52:07] <OndraSter> they were here yesterday
[05:52:24] <OndraSter> I have only one spare!
[05:55:49] <OndraSter> how does PnP over serial port work?
[05:55:57] <OndraSter> because my LED board is identified as Microsoft Mouse LOL
[05:56:11] <OndraSter> today it is MS BallPoint, yesterday it was something else
[05:56:13] <amee2k> what kind of serial? USB?
[05:56:17] <OndraSter> FT232
[05:56:36] <OndraSter> surprisingly it does only sometimes
[05:57:27] <OndraSter> hmm this is weird... after I connect my board, it auto-resets
[05:57:30] <amee2k> iirc the ft232 has eeprom inside so you can configure the USB identification and a special device ID that can be queried with FTDI specific commands
[05:57:32] <OndraSter> but it sends some junk before it gets okay
[05:57:38] <OndraSter> yes, you can
[05:57:40] <OndraSter> I have done that
[05:57:48] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1F4SK
[05:57:56] <OndraSter> that junk on the beginning instead regular boot...
[05:58:04] <amee2k> for development i'd strongly suggest a real operating system though, not some legacy junk with flaky support for modern hardware
[05:58:17] <OndraSter> duh?
[05:58:25] <OndraSter> what's wrong with W7?
[05:58:27] * amee2k blinks
[05:58:36] <amee2k> it identifies your LED board as a mouse?
[05:58:44] <OndraSter> sometimes
[05:58:47] <OndraSter> probably because of the junk
[05:58:48] <amee2k> the stock audio driver causes kernel panics?
[05:58:54] <OndraSter> it was on W8
[05:58:57] <OndraSter> never happened on W 7 :P
[05:59:49] <amee2k> either way i still think you'll want a decent platform for your development work
[06:00:04] <OndraSter> MSI P67A-C45 is not decent? :(
[06:00:07] <amee2k> once you've got working firmware you can still port the drivers to whatever you want to support
[06:00:11] <OndraSter> anyway, that mouse identify is because of the junk
[06:00:17] <OndraSter> I am 100% sure of it
[06:00:32] <mrfrenzy> W7 is great for a workstation
[06:00:33] <OndraSter> it does only right after reset of the MCU
[06:00:38] <amee2k> i didn't mean your mainboard, i meant software platform
[06:00:49] <OndraSter> W7 is the best one around! :P
[06:01:02] <amee2k> thats what she said too
[06:01:08] <OndraSter> I am not going to screw myself with some crappy IDEs for .NET and Mono for looniks
[06:01:25] <amee2k> how about QBASIC then?
[06:01:29] * amee2k runs
[06:01:32] <OndraSter> -.-
[06:07:36] <OndraSter> capn
[06:07:40] <OndraSter> where's CapnKernel?
[06:09:35] <OndraSter> !seen CapnKernel
[06:09:35] <tobbor> CapnKernel was last seen in #avr on Mar 04 02:31 2012
[06:09:42] <OndraSter> tobbor, what timezone?
[07:03:58] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, in case you're wondering, the AS6 works with the programmer
[07:31:20] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, had any PDI stability issues?
[07:39:57] <specing> OndraSter: Get Linux
[07:40:15] <specing> OndraSter: And code a host program in C/C++/Python
[07:40:24] <OndraSter> screw C/C++/Python
[07:40:26] <OndraSter> I have my .NET
[07:40:27] <OndraSter> :P
[07:46:44] <specing> You have your .NET, MS ballpoint mouse, W7 and its BSODs; What else do you need?
[07:52:55] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, as6? already?
[07:53:22] <Tom_itx> i haven't noticed any problems with PDI
[07:53:23] <OndraSter> it is new betah
[07:53:42] <Tom_itx> becoming a patch a month?
[07:54:15] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, yeah, Atmel Studio 6 beta, it's basically AS5.1 with added ARM support
[07:54:29] <abcminiuser> It's the new direction, one IDE to rule them all and all that - means you can use Atmel ARMs and AVRs in the same IDE
[07:54:54] <abcminiuser> Anyway, I've heard sporadic reports of instability with PDI, I'm thinking I need to raise the guard time
[07:55:58] <Valen> i can never rember the name of that really cheap pcb place
[07:56:27] <Valen> any suggestions?
[07:57:09] <abcminiuser> Iteadstudio
[07:57:35] <OndraSter> yeah
[07:57:36] <Tom_itx> or Caspnkernel
[07:57:39] <OndraSter> or
[07:57:41] <OndraSter> CapnKernel
[07:57:49] <Tom_itx> or capnkernel
[07:58:20] <Tom_itx> better be careful though, he's one of those seedy Aussies
[07:58:35] <OndraSter> haha
[07:58:58] <OndraSter> what's wrong with Aussies, Tom_itx ? :P
[07:59:23] <Valen> lol
[07:59:25] <Tom_itx> too far away from me :)
[07:59:31] <Valen> is his site up and running yet?
[07:59:39] <Tom_itx> not that i know of
[07:59:46] <Valen> makes it hard
[08:00:03] <Tom_itx> not so bad really
[08:00:25] <Tom_itx> he says he uses the same vendor itead and seeed use
[08:05:06] <Tom_itx> he seems to check in here a couple times a day
[08:05:34] <Tom_itx> Valen, did you need several one just one?
[08:05:48] <Valen> actually i want an assload of very simple boards
[08:05:50] <Tom_itx> my last batch was from itead and i was pleased with them overall
[08:05:56] <Valen> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/switches/featherweight-pcb-screw-switch/
[08:06:05] <Valen> is what i'm minaturising
[08:06:12] <Tom_itx> i got 100 for $88 including shipping etc
[08:06:46] <OndraSter> not bad
[08:06:48] <OndraSter> 5x5cm?
[08:06:50] <Tom_itx> eww
[08:07:04] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, that was the deal i used yes
[08:07:12] <Tom_itx> they were under that size
[08:07:17] <OndraSter> ah kk
[08:08:00] <Valen> the boards i want would be ~1cmx1cm
[08:08:05] <OndraSter> yay
[08:08:24] <Tom_itx> something that small they may all frown on
[08:08:34] <Valen> i dont mind cutting them up
[08:08:36] <Tom_itx> i know GP would charge a surgharge for that
[08:08:43] <Tom_itx> surcharge*
[08:08:59] <Tom_itx> well, just ask to keep them panelized
[08:09:10] <OndraSter> put multipleboards for 5x5cm :P
[08:09:18] <OndraSter> put multiple boards on 5x5cm :P
[08:09:26] <Tom_itx> but even then being so small they would probably have a surcharge for all the vscore cutting
[08:09:34] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, they won't let you
[08:09:40] <Tom_itx> trust me i tried
[08:09:44] <OndraSter> some guy had two same layouts next to each other
[08:09:45] <OndraSter> and it went fine
[08:09:45] <Valen> i'm happy for them just to be a solid pcb
[08:10:06] <Valen> i'll just chop them up here
[08:10:15] <Valen> but they say no pannelising
[08:10:26] <Valen> "Single design, no panelizing"
[08:10:34] <Tom_itx> yeah but capn may do that
[08:11:01] <Tom_itx> that's one nice thing about his is there aren't many restrictions
[08:11:10] <Tom_itx> you want it, he quotes ti
[08:11:11] <Valen> how do you use it if there is no website?
[08:11:12] <Tom_itx> it
[08:11:18] <Tom_itx> he said so
[08:11:21] <Tom_itx> oh
[08:11:24] <Tom_itx> i pm'd him
[08:11:28] <Tom_itx> and emailed the files
[08:11:53] <Tom_itx> you want, i'll give you his email
[08:12:01] <Valen> hows his $ compare to itead?
[08:12:02] <Valen> sure
[08:12:28] <Tom_itx> it's kinda hard to say since they were very different size boards
[08:12:38] <Valen> gut feel
[08:12:44] <Tom_itx> close
[08:13:06] <Tom_itx> but itead wouldn't do those
[08:13:16] <Tom_itx> at least not reasonablly
[08:13:37] <Valen> its 5 drills, the bastards lol
[08:13:41] <Valen> actually 3
[08:14:27] <Valen> but yeah, hit me up with his email
[08:15:14] <Tom_itx> i did
[08:15:44] <Tom_itx> i'm looking for his other one
[08:18:24] <Tom_itx> yours look like they were vscored
[08:31:12] <Valen> probably
[08:31:30] <Valen> i'll just mill them out worst case
[08:32:59] <Tom_itx> if you do that, leave an extra .1" between them which would be quite costly on those tiny things
[08:33:10] <Tom_itx> for the router
[08:33:47] <Valen> rather
[08:33:49] <Valen> anyway night
[08:33:58] <Valen> thanks for the help, see what he says
[08:50:54] <OndraSter> http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/64192_2701363698873_1400123387_31958258_1239880367_n.jpg
[08:51:21] <OndraSter> http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419775_2701366938954_1400123387_31958259_1510843331_n.jpg
[08:52:49] <Tom_itx> that's alot of flippin wiring!
[08:53:06] <OndraSter> I know
[08:53:20] <OndraSter> it took me a long time to get to this stage
[08:53:26] <OndraSter> the white wires are for power source
[08:53:34] <OndraSter> 3v3
[08:53:38] <OndraSter> red/black are regular 5V for drivers
[08:53:52] <OndraSter> and those unconnected 2x2 headers are daisy chain for data for driverse
[08:53:53] <OndraSter> drivers
[08:55:30] <dirty_d> holy crap
[08:55:35] <dirty_d> whats this thing do?
[08:55:45] <OndraSter> that would be 32x48 dual color LED display :P
[08:55:57] <dirty_d> what will it display?
[08:56:14] <OndraSter> whatever I want
[08:56:27] <OndraSter> it will be either part of the firmware or loaded via computer
[08:56:30] <OndraSter> it has USB :)
[08:56:31] <dirty_d> animations or video?
[08:56:37] <OndraSter> video on RG ...
[08:56:41] <dirty_d> cool
[08:56:41] <OndraSter> missing B... :P
[08:56:44] <OndraSter> doubt it
[08:56:48] <OndraSter> more like animations and simple games
[08:56:52] <dirty_d> yea
[08:57:07] <OndraSter> I have actually small controllers for it aswell
[08:57:13] <OndraSter> left right up down OK
[08:57:47] <dirty_d> cool
[08:58:58] <OndraSter> hmm many wires are soldered way, way, way worse than all SMDs lol
[08:59:24] <OndraSter> funny thing - red wires connect green pixels and green wires connect red pixels
[08:59:32] <OndraSter> I have recvd wrong datasheet
[08:59:36] <OndraSter> it had flipped those two colors
[09:00:04] <OndraSter> luckily it is software fixable
[09:00:12] <OndraSter> worse would be if it had completely different layout of the pins :P
[09:00:45] <dirty_d> yea
[09:01:00] <dirty_d> damn, hobbyking sucks at shipping
[09:01:12] <dirty_d> its been a week, and its still being packed
[09:01:36] <OndraSter> have you recently ordered from dx?
[09:01:43] <dirty_d> never
[09:01:57] <OndraSter> oh
[09:02:04] <OndraSter> I am waiting for a month now for them to ship me something
[09:02:07] <OndraSter> solder paste :(
[09:02:14] <OndraSter> I wanted to use it to build this
[09:02:16] <OndraSter> oh well
[09:02:25] <OndraSter> I bought meanwhile small .5mm tin
[09:03:23] <dirty_d> i tried using solder paste, i couldnt lay down a small enough amount
[09:03:32] <dirty_d> so i just use wire solder now
[09:03:59] <dirty_d> for qfn i just tin the pcb pads and cover with flux then reflow on a frying pan
[09:04:03] <dirty_d> the rest i hand solder
[09:04:23] <OndraSter> I had here two TPS54527
[09:04:26] <OndraSter> SMPS controllers
[09:04:31] <OndraSter> with built-in MOSFETs
[09:04:35] <OndraSter> upto 5A output
[09:04:43] <OndraSter> they are actually soldered from bottom to cool
[09:04:49] <OndraSter> I tinned the pad below them a bit
[09:04:55] <dirty_d> the center pad?
[09:05:06] <OndraSter> then also put a bit of tin on one pin
[09:05:09] <OndraSter> and used hotair :P
[09:06:08] <dirty_d> what do you use for hot air?
[09:06:16] <OndraSter> hot air (de)soldering station
[09:06:21] <dirty_d> oh
[09:06:23] <OndraSter> I got from local site similar to ebay
[09:06:25] <OndraSter> it was like $75
[09:06:30] <OndraSter> it has regular iron + hot air
[09:06:52] <OndraSter> http://www.eres.alpha.pl/elektronika/fusion_images/articles/pt803s1.jpg
[09:07:17] <OndraSter> it is noisy as hell though
[09:07:28] <dirty_d> http://www.harborfreight.com/professional-heat-gun-with-digital-temperature-settings-97114.html
[09:07:33] <dirty_d> i might try something like that
[09:07:50] <dirty_d> how much?
[09:07:54] <OndraSter> Temperature ranges: 430°-800° /570°-1160°
[09:07:58] <OndraSter> that is too much
[09:08:09] <OndraSter> you want 180 or 200 minimum
[09:08:49] <dirty_d> thats F not C
[09:09:00] <OndraSter> 430F?
[09:09:02] <OndraSter> oh lol
[09:09:18] <OndraSter> 221C
[09:09:19] <OndraSter> hmm
[09:09:39] <dirty_d> thats fine right?
[09:09:48] <dirty_d> if noy you could hook up a dimmer switch to the heater, lol
[09:09:50] <OndraSter> I'd ask the elder ones :P
[09:09:52] <OndraSter> yeah
[09:10:32] <dirty_d> how much did yours cost?
[09:11:06] <dirty_d> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=hot+air+rework&_sacat=See-All-Categories
[09:11:09] <dirty_d> oh those arent so bad
[09:11:37] <OndraSter> about $75
[09:11:45] <OndraSter> and like I said, it has both iron + hot air
[09:12:06] <OndraSter> iron 200 - 480C
[09:12:20] <OndraSter> hotair hasn't got temperature but just 1 - 8 knobs
[09:12:29] <dirty_d> hmm
[09:12:30] <OndraSter> I (de)solder at about 4 - 4.5
[09:12:35] <OndraSter> with lowest air
[09:12:35] <dirty_d> i already have a soldering station
[09:12:45] <dirty_d> so i could probably get just a hotair station with temp
[09:14:34] <dirty_d> <dirty_d> so i could probably get just a hotair station with temp
[09:14:36] <dirty_d> that one looks good
[09:14:39] <dirty_d> oops
[09:14:47] <dirty_d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-SMD-Hot-Air-Gun-Rework-Soldering-Station-4-Nozzles-PLCC-BGA-/300670755217?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46015fa191#ht_2267wt_1348
[09:15:57] <OndraSter> not bad
[09:16:17] <OndraSter> what is that IC Extractor about?
[09:16:23] <OndraSter> I never managed to use it at all lol
[09:17:04] <dirty_d> looks like a trident
[09:17:05] <dirty_d> lol
[09:19:31] <OndraSter> oh I also built me small fume extractor
[09:19:33] <OndraSter> "small"
[09:19:35] <OndraSter> 12cm fan in front
[09:19:44] <OndraSter> 12V..
[09:19:50] <OndraSter> I might build later something bigger
[09:19:55] <dirty_d> lol, some poor sucker is bidding $81 on it when its under but-it-now from the same seller for $69 with free shipping
[09:19:56] <OndraSter> 230VAC, 22W fan
[09:20:02] <OndraSter> lol
[09:20:07] <OndraSter> regular stuff really
[09:20:07] <dirty_d> same exact model
[09:20:41] <OndraSter> I always find auctions for that item
[09:20:49] <OndraSter> I bid to the same price as are the "buy now" ones
[09:20:52] <OndraSter> and let the others outbid me :D
[09:21:04] <OndraSter> and then buy the "buy now" one
[09:21:31] <OndraSter> oh well, not everybody can be smart :P
[09:22:05] <dirty_d> lol
[09:23:41] <rue_bed> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[09:24:10] * Tom_itx smacks rue_bed with an octopus
[09:24:51] <dirty_d> OndraSter, do people reflow whole boards with these?
[09:25:05] <Tom_itx> hot air gun?
[09:25:06] <OndraSter> well
[09:25:07] <Tom_itx> i doubt it
[09:25:10] <OndraSter> yeah
[09:25:13] <OndraSter> maybe in oven
[09:25:16] <Tom_itx> wouldn't be very practical
[09:25:16] <OndraSter> but this is too small :P
[09:25:24] <Tom_itx> make a friggin oven already!
[09:25:28] <OndraSter> you can slowly flow around the board
[09:25:46] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, you used some older microwave and replaced electronics, right?
[09:25:55] <Tom_itx> no
[09:26:02] <Tom_itx> i used a toaster oven
[09:26:09] <OndraSter> oh
[09:26:12] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, isnt a hot plate reflow just as good?
[09:26:19] <Tom_itx> no
[09:26:25] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, do you need a paste stencil for this?
[09:26:34] <Tom_itx> you need a good heatup profile to bake off the moisture
[09:26:38] <dirty_d> i couldnt get down a small enough amount not to bridge the pins of tqfp
[09:26:47] <Tom_itx> dirty_d, i have stencils made yes
[09:27:08] <OndraSter> "Son, would you like a brother or a sister for xmas?"
[09:27:14] <OndraSter> "Mum, I know it is gonna hurt but... I'd like a BMW"
[09:28:29] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, why cant you do that with a hotplate?
[09:28:43] <Tom_itx> you need a good heatup profile to bake off the moisture
[09:28:54] <dirty_d> if you have a sensor on the surface then it should be just as easy no?
[09:28:59] <Tom_itx> you gonna put a �C on a hotplate?
[09:29:14] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, maybe
[09:29:17] <rue_bed> you put on on a toaster oven
[09:29:26] <Tom_itx> the oven captures the heat and heats all around instead of just from the bottom
[09:29:51] <Tom_itx> yeah, use a hotplate and heat it in a toaster oven :)
[09:30:08] <dirty_d> there cant be more than a couple of degrees difference in temp between the top and bottom of the pcb can there?
[09:30:29] <Tom_itx> what's the thermal conductance rate of FR4?
[09:30:35] <dirty_d> i dunno
[09:30:44] <Tom_itx> thar's yer answer
[09:31:59] <Tom_itx> i'm not saying you can't successfully use a hotplate
[09:32:11] <Tom_itx> i'm saying you have better control with a toaster oven
[09:32:43] <Tom_itx> i desolder with a clothes iron
[09:34:57] <dirty_d> yea
[09:35:15] <dirty_d> as long as you bring the temp up slow enough id think youd be fine
[09:35:35] <dirty_d> i reflowed on a frying pan with the burner at full blast until i got to 450F
[09:35:36] <dirty_d> lol
[09:36:50] <dirty_d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2in1-SMD-Soldering-Rework-Station-Hot-Air-Iron-852D-5Tips-ESD-PLCC-BGA-/370550230066?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564683cc32#ht_4032wt_1348
[09:36:52] <dirty_d> just bought it
[09:37:15] <dirty_d> im gonna return my soldering station to radio shack and get my $80 back since this has one
[09:37:25] <dirty_d> $10 net for hot air, not bad
[09:38:49] <vectory> i knew this chan was about but hot air xD
[09:40:02] <Tom_itx> har har
[10:32:52] <jadew> is a soledering station really necesary?
[10:33:20] <jadew> I don't feel hindered in any way by my soldering iron
[10:35:17] <CapnKernel> jadew: is your iron temperature controlled?
[10:35:30] <jadew> no
[10:35:32] <CapnKernel> Temperature control is good because you can get a hot iron really fast :-)
[10:35:44] <CapnKernel> But seriously, for most things, a normal soldering iron is fine
[10:35:55] <CapnKernel> As is an Arduino, but that's blasphemy here
[10:35:58] * CapnKernel ducks and runs
[10:36:00] <jadew> ah, it gets to its operating temperature in about 2 minutes or so
[10:36:13] <CapnKernel> There are some soldering tips though, that are SPECIAL
[10:36:43] <jadew> what makes them special?
[10:36:48] <CapnKernel> Special concave shapes to hold solder, they are freaking amazing at doing fine pitch surface mount.
[10:36:55] <CapnKernel> The well helps control the surface tension
[10:37:26] <OndraSter> heya CapnKernel
[10:37:35] <OndraSter> have you met 0603-sized RGB LEDs? :)
[10:37:48] <CapnKernel> OndraSter: How's it hanging?
[10:38:24] <CapnKernel> Not personally. What does google or a good parts site tell you?
[10:38:25] <OndraSter> quite good actually
[10:38:34] <OndraSter> haven't checked farnell/digikey yet
[10:38:36] <OndraSter> only ebay
[10:38:40] <OndraSter> nothing reasonable on ebay
[10:38:44] <OndraSter> only 1210 size
[10:38:49] <OndraSter> http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419775_2701366938954_1400123387_31958259_1510843331_n.jpg
[10:38:54] <OndraSter> http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/64192_2701363698873_1400123387_31958258_1239880367_n.jpg
[10:38:56] <OndraSter> today's fun
[10:39:37] <mrfrenzy> http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=SE&lc=eng&ckey=2137356&nid=-33575.970741.00&id=2137356
[10:39:40] <mrfrenzy> I want one!
[10:40:16] <OndraSter> hehe
[10:40:47] <OndraSter> I want, for future, that tektronix that has even RF input
[10:41:44] <mrfrenzy> yeah that's quite cool
[10:42:15] <OndraSter> too bad the highest one costs $28k lol
[10:42:36] <OndraSter> 6GHz RF
[10:42:44] <OndraSter> 5GSps I think
[10:43:56] <OndraSter> http://www.tek.com/oscilloscope/mdo4000
[10:44:06] <OndraSter> 1GHz analog bandwith
[10:44:11] <OndraSter> 16 logic analyzer...
[10:44:17] <OndraSter> 20M record length..
[10:44:19] <OndraSter> fap fap fap?
[10:44:26] <mrfrenzy> I'm wetting my pants already
[10:44:38] <mrfrenzy> however, with my budget I'm looking at a separate analyzer
[10:44:41] <CapnKernel> I've got a woodie
[10:44:43] <mrfrenzy> possibly pc based
[10:44:50] <OndraSter> I got that $18 one on ebay lol
[10:44:55] <OndraSter> upto 24MHz/8bit
[10:45:02] <OndraSter> or 12MHz/16bit
[10:45:06] <OndraSter> I somehow blew it
[10:45:13] <OndraSter> no idea why
[10:45:18] <mrfrenzy> maybe something like openbench or salae
[10:48:29] <OndraSter> I had clone of the salae
[10:48:53] <mrfrenzy> how did it work?
[10:49:15] <OndraSter> like I said
[10:49:18] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> I somehow blew it
[10:49:18] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> no idea why
[10:49:23] <OndraSter> and how
[10:50:33] <mrfrenzy> aah so it was that one
[10:50:39] <mrfrenzy> did it work with the salae software?
[10:50:49] <OndraSter> yes it did
[10:50:53] <OndraSter> now I somehow broke the USB
[10:51:01] <OndraSter> it doesn't get recognized, sometimes doesn't work at all
[10:51:14] <mrfrenzy> maybe the usb wasn't isolated
[10:51:20] <mrfrenzy> so you made a ground loop to DUT
[10:51:26] <OndraSter> who knows... :P
[10:51:33] <OndraSter> I think that the salae application uploads the application code into the chip each time you connect it
[10:51:41] <mrfrenzy> there was a big fat warning about that on the salae page I think
[10:51:46] <OndraSter> and without the code, in default all pins are set as LOW OUTPUT
[10:51:53] <OndraSter> heh
[11:02:59] <mrfrenzy> maybe this was your problem?
[11:03:00] <mrfrenzy> http://sunbizhosting.co.uk/~spiral/blog/?p=117
[11:06:42] <dirty_d> you could make one of those with a usb avr couldnt you?
[11:08:52] <OndraSter> yeah
[11:08:55] <OndraSter> you could
[11:09:03] <OndraSter> but it would require a lot of hacking
[11:09:10] <OndraSter> because upon each startup the firmware is sent to the device ?O
[11:09:11] <OndraSter> :P
[11:11:29] <dirty_d> no i mean as a logic analyzer itself
[11:11:41] <OndraSter> oh
[11:11:45] <OndraSter> like with your software?
[11:12:02] <dirty_d> yez
[11:12:21] <OndraSter> isn't it rather... time consuming?
[11:12:25] <jadew> yeah, I never understood why people don't just do that
[11:14:31] <dirty_d> just have pin change interrupts and send some crap over usb
[11:14:34] <dirty_d> like state and timestamp
[11:15:02] <jadew> I'd rather go with a timer and sample data at given intervals
[11:15:06] <jadew> then send it over
[11:15:13] <OndraSter> shall we make one? :P
[11:15:17] <OndraSter> yeah
[11:15:17] <jadew> so you sample 8/16 bits at a time
[11:15:23] <OndraSter> interrupts take some time
[11:15:31] <OndraSter> the thing is, xmega is only 32MHz
[11:15:35] <jadew> it's not about the time
[11:15:40] <jadew> it's about timing here
[11:15:41] <OndraSter> add a bit of overhead and you can grab barely 16MHz signals
[11:15:56] <OndraSter> if you have fast data capture rate, you can not use PCINT
[11:16:05] <dirty_d> why?
[11:16:13] <dirty_d> even with naked isr?
[11:16:21] <OndraSter> jump to ISR takes 4 cycles
[11:16:26] <OndraSter> at least on megas
[11:17:02] <dirty_d> on xmega you may be able to use the event system to send a usb packet with every pin change with no isr
[11:17:05] <dirty_d> not sure though
[11:17:17] <dirty_d> brb
[11:17:20] <dirty_d> door fixin time
[11:17:41] <jadew> yeah, but you don't want to sample pin changes, because then you'd have to have a very good measure of time
[11:17:57] <jadew> it's easier to have a timer set up and just sample all of them at given intervals
[11:18:06] <OndraSter> yeah
[11:18:17] <OndraSter> load one/two full ports and dump them to USB
[11:18:40] <OndraSter> but I wouldn't go with Xmega
[11:18:42] <OndraSter> too slow :P
[11:18:57] <OndraSter> some ARM chip
[11:19:00] <OndraSter> around 100MHz...
[11:19:02] <jadew> doubt you need more than a few Mhz
[11:19:10] <OndraSter> depends on how fast signals do you need
[11:19:51] <jadew> the boring part would be to make the software that interprets the bits
[11:20:03] <OndraSter> hehe
[11:20:05] <OndraSter> C# :P
[11:20:11] <OndraSter> easiest IMHO
[11:20:35] <pingec> in avrstuido if I do a .include inside a macro, you think that will work?
[11:21:17] <jadew> try it
[11:21:46] <learningc> anyone has played with rotary encoder before?
[11:21:50] <OndraSter> sure
[11:22:08] <learningc> how do I get them working?
[11:22:15] <jadew> how many bits?
[11:22:31] <learningc> basically, I want to put it on a treadmill and measure the speed
[11:22:44] <learningc> it has 2 outputs
[11:23:06] <learningc> each out of phase 90 degree
[11:23:07] <OndraSter> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_encoder
[11:23:09] <dirty_d> jadew, oh yea thats a better idea
[11:23:12] <jadew> giving the fact that it's going in one direction only, it's even easier
[11:23:49] <jadew> just count the changes
[11:23:49] <dirty_d> jadew, how fast of signals do you figure that would be good for with a 32mhz xmega?
[11:24:00] <dirty_d> brb
[11:24:07] <learningc> how do I count the change?
[11:24:13] <OndraSter> duh. xmegas are not available on farnell except the high end ones
[11:24:33] <learningc> when I measure the output, the frequency change with the speed
[11:24:55] <jadew> well, you'd have read the port, push it in a buffer and the ISR for the timer, don't know how many ticks that would be
[11:24:58] <learningc> so, higher speed -> higher frequency
[11:25:06] <jadew> probably something like 20 or so
[11:25:49] <learningc> i see
[11:25:51] <jadew> maybe you can do it in 10 or less actually
[11:25:56] <jadew> learningc, yeah
[11:26:03] <learningc> so when I read the port, do I read from pooling?
[11:26:24] <jadew> learningc, pin change interrupt
[11:27:03] <learningc> like edge triggered interrupt?
[11:27:08] <jadew> yeah
[11:27:37] <jadew> you can trigger on INT0 for example
[11:27:47] <learningc> then in the interrupt routine I read the value and copy it into the timer?
[11:27:52] <jadew> on falling edge, having it as an input with pullups enabled
[11:28:06] <jadew> when it will rotate, it will connect the output pin with ground
[11:28:10] <jadew> pulling your input down
[11:28:19] <jadew> so you'll have a falling edge there
[11:28:32] <jadew> no, in the interrupt you just do ++counter;
[11:28:52] <learningc> ok
[11:28:53] <jadew> and at a set interval (another interrupt or you check a timer in the main loop)
[11:29:08] <jadew> you calculate the speed based on that count
[11:29:11] <jadew> and reset it to 0
[11:29:21] <rue_bed> thats what I'll do today write the avr code for my digital scope
[11:29:24] <jadew> make sure to debounce the encoder tho
[11:29:39] <jadew> rue_bed, making a scope?
[11:29:49] <learningc> what do you mean by debounce?
[11:30:08] <jadew> learningc, the mechanic rotary encoders have a lot of bounce when they switch
[11:30:11] <learningc> can the encoder bounce?
[11:30:18] <learningc> i see
[11:30:18] <jadew> that means that they quickly go on and off for a bit
[11:30:28] <jadew> during the switch
[11:30:30] <rue_bed> yea, low freq storage
[11:30:36] <rue_bed> for tuning servos
[11:30:51] <learningc> jadew: is it the same for optical encoder?
[11:30:59] <jadew> adding a 0.1uF cap between the ground pin and the output pin should do it
[11:31:02] <jadew> learningc, no
[11:31:05] <learningc> I mean do I have to debounce them too?
[11:31:07] <learningc> ok
[11:31:08] <jadew> I guess not at least
[11:31:16] <rue_bed> no, the mechanical encoders use brushes, so they grind
[11:31:24] <learningc> i see
[11:31:27] <rue_bed> optical is just a light gate
[11:31:52] <jadew> don't really know what really goes on in the mechanical ones, but I had a lot of trouble with that before I figured out what's going on
[11:32:06] <learningc> yeah, from what I saw on my scope, it's a pretty clean square output I get at the output
[11:32:17] <rue_bed> I'v seen mechanical ones used in old mice
[11:32:48] <rue_bed> there are 3 brushes, one for the common ring, and two to pick up the phases
[11:33:15] <learningc> i see
[11:35:28] <Tom_itx> learningc, quadrature encoder?
[11:39:45] <Tom_itx> ahh yeah they are
[12:46:27] <learningc> Tom_itx: yes, quadrature encoder
[12:46:40] <learningc> Tom_itx: have you played with them much?
[13:11:58] <CapnKernel> Hello #avr. So, how's your day going? Is it as good as mine? http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36854-check-dates-carefully-or-you-may-lose-your-visa/
[13:14:19] <Steffanx> Oops
[13:15:12] <mrfrenzy> ooh crap :/
[13:15:28] <Steffanx> Yeah, i had a better day CapnKernel :P
[13:16:12] <OndraSter> omg
[13:16:16] <OndraSter> that's bad
[13:16:38] <Steffanx> "special guests room" that sounds as bad as it is CapnKernel ?
[13:17:18] <OndraSter> abc
[13:17:20] <OndraSter> where is Dean?
[13:17:23] <Steffanx> or is as bad as it sounds
[13:17:25] <Steffanx> Not here
[13:21:35] <OndraSter> !seen abcminiuser
[13:21:35] <tobbor> abcminiuser was last seen in #avr on Mar 04 10:18 2012
[13:21:38] <OndraSter> !seen abcminiuser_
[13:21:38] <tobbor> abcminiuser_ was last seen in #avr on Mar 04 10:24 2012
[13:21:42] <OndraSter> !seen abcminiuser__
[13:21:42] <tobbor> abcminiuser__ was last seen in #avr on Feb 21 14:16 2012
[13:25:22] <Steffanx> This works better imho OndraSter : /msg nickserv info abcminiuser
[13:25:29] <OndraSter> right
[13:25:33] <OndraSter> forgot about ns :)
[13:26:19] <Steffanx> How's the display going btw?
[13:27:08] <OndraSter> I posted pics earlier today :)
[13:27:17] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419775_2701366938954_1400123387_31958259_1510843331_n.jpg
[13:27:17] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/64192_2701363698873_1400123387_31958258_1239880367_n.jpg
[13:27:25] <Steffanx> I'm not here all day long :P
[13:27:41] <Steffanx> and it works?
[13:27:59] <OndraSter> haven't tried yet
[13:28:04] <OndraSter> :D
[13:28:08] <OndraSter> it HAS to
[13:28:09] <OndraSter> ..
[13:28:15] <OndraSter> I tried each one on its own
[13:28:16] <OndraSter> and it worked
[13:28:23] <Steffanx> Ah ok
[13:29:01] <OndraSter> it is simple SPI daisy chain, no reason for it to not work :)
[13:29:06] <Steffanx> So you're a hot glue guy
[13:29:13] <OndraSter> yeah
[13:29:15] <OndraSter> hot glue ftw!
[13:29:30] <Steffanx> Where's the duct tape?
[13:29:41] <OndraSter> that has yet to come
[13:30:21] <OndraSter> actually, there was duct tape
[13:30:23] <OndraSter> on it
[13:30:44] <OndraSter> when I was soldering the green and red wires, I had to somehow keep them in place
[13:30:47] <OndraSter> duct tape!
[13:34:02] <OndraSter> CapnKernel, can Aussies say "aluminium" or do they say "aluminum"?
[13:34:18] <OndraSter> and what about you, Tom_itx :P
[13:35:15] <Steffanx> I say aluminalium :P
[13:35:32] <OndraSter> sounds like galium
[13:36:44] <CapnKernel> We say Aluminium, totally 100% for sure
[13:36:56] <OndraSter> ok
[13:36:57] <CapnKernel> And tomahto, not tomayto
[13:37:05] <OndraSter> huh
[13:37:17] <OndraSter> we just say "rajče"
[13:37:26] <OndraSter> [raytse]
[13:37:32] <OndraSter> or something like that
[13:37:54] <CapnKernel> I can't decide whether to say 西红柿 or 番茄
[13:37:54] <OndraSter> maybe riytse would be closer to english pronunciation
[13:37:56] <cyanide> are the MMAxxxx accelerometers good?
[13:38:06] <cyanide> theyre cheaper than the adxl ones
[13:38:17] <OndraSter> CapnKernel, unreadable squares - 3 or 2?
[13:38:19] <OndraSter> :D
[13:38:30] <CapnKernel> UTF-8 encoding. Unicode: Try it some time.
[13:38:34] <cyanide> hey mitch
[13:38:38] <OndraSter> I have utf8
[13:38:44] <CapnKernel> cyanide, hi there
[13:38:53] <OndraSter> ey cyanide
[13:38:58] <cyanide> all good, folks?
[13:39:05] <CapnKernel> Your IRC program might not be set to UTF-8
[13:39:14] <OndraSter> it is
[13:39:26] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1FbgW
[13:39:31] <CapnKernel> cyanide: I've had better days. Look above for link.
[13:39:44] <cyanide> i see the chinese characters fine
[13:39:45] <cyanide> ok
[13:40:05] <OndraSter> maybe font problem
[13:40:21] <CapnKernel> Yes I think so, otherwise I wouldn't be able to see rajče
[13:40:28] <OndraSter> hehe
[13:40:54] <cyanide> wow mitch, sucks
[13:41:02] <CapnKernel> Sure does
[13:41:17] <cyanide> any problems with the authorities?
[13:42:02] <CapnKernel> Well yes, I'm now living in someone else's country with no visa, and I'll have to deal with a system that has no sense of fairness
[13:42:20] <CapnKernel> Look I'm just going to see what happens
[13:42:21] <Steffanx> fair as ...
[13:42:24] <Steffanx> We are always right?
[13:42:33] <cyanide> you should've been here in india lol
[13:42:39] <cyanide> nobody gives a fuck who comes or goes
[13:42:54] <CapnKernel> My philosophy: Don't worry about the things you can't control (and worry damn hard about the things you can)
[13:43:13] <Steffanx> I don't worry at all :P
[13:43:30] <Steffanx> Shit happens and goes
[13:43:31] <CapnKernel> And right now, according to that rule and given it's 3:30am, I haven't a care in the world :-)
[13:43:38] <cyanide> good man
[13:43:41] <CapnKernel> That's absolutely true
[13:43:53] <CapnKernel> But by the same token, it's Shit I Can Do Without
[13:44:17] <CapnKernel> Got enough on my plate :-(
[13:45:13] <CapnKernel> The idea of being service oriented is an alien concept to the absolute majority of Chinese people. That's why it's nice to go to HK
[13:45:54] <CapnKernel> Same people, racially, but the culture is a whole 'nother thing.
[14:00:53] <Tom_itx> al u mini um
[14:01:31] <cyanide> whut
[14:01:41] <cyanide> an asteroid's going to crash into the earth in 2013
[14:01:52] <Tom_itx> that's ok
[14:02:11] <Tom_itx> the world is gonna end Dec 2012 anyway
[14:02:22] <cyanide> http://rt.com/news/paint-asteroid-earth-nasa-767/
[14:03:27] <cyanide> better build some stock of cigarettes and a tank full of fresh water and some matchsticks
[14:06:23] <Steffanx> 0.1% chance ..?
[14:07:36] <OndraSter> http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/426890_342091235829253_114984995206546_940212_858153127_n.jpg?dl=1
[14:08:06] <Steffanx> stop using that facebook crap
[14:09:13] <OndraSter> bla bla bla
[14:09:14] <OndraSter> :P
[14:09:46] <Steffanx> No
[14:12:13] <cyanide> lol
[14:17:40] <cyanide> isnt that the host which was involved in the bitcoin drama a few days back? lol
[14:22:16] * CapnKernel cannot view those facebook pages...
[14:23:55] <Tom_itx> i can but won't
[14:32:35] <Landon> CapnKernel: fbcdn blocked where you are?
[14:32:49] <Casper> what do you think about this guys? this pharmatical manufacturer had to lower or even stop the production due to the result of the american health inspection. few weeks later, the building is on fire.
[14:33:31] <OndraSter> not suspicious what so ever
[14:34:59] <Casper> 40 firefoighters deployed
[14:35:01] <learningc> Casper: trying to extract money from insurance?
[14:37:02] <OndraSter> I dont think I am trying out my finished LED matrix today
[14:37:07] <OndraSter> gotta clear out table for it lol
[14:37:45] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!448&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AGuB16eO19kc7sk
[14:38:09] <OndraSter> not enough space to fit bench supply and my board!
[14:38:13] <OndraSter> and still type on keyboard lol
[14:38:48] <OndraSter> abc
[14:38:52] <OndraSter> I missed him
[14:38:52] <OndraSter> damn
[14:38:56] <OndraSter> abcminiuser, eya
[14:39:03] <OndraSter> where can one buy lower end xmegas?
[14:39:04] <abcminiuser> Heyhey
[14:39:07] <OndraSter> farnell has got only top ones
[14:39:13] <abcminiuser> Not sure :P
[14:39:21] <abcminiuser> Octopart might show who has them
[14:39:23] <abcminiuser> Or findchips
[14:39:30] <OndraSter> digikey etc will want bazilion usd for shipping
[14:39:51] <OndraSter> and local stuff is overpriced
[14:41:12] <mrfrenzy> which country are you in again?
[14:41:16] <OndraSter> CZE
[14:41:17] <learningc> OndraSter: I thought shipping is only 8 usd
[14:41:28] <OndraSter> USA maybe learningc
[14:41:35] <OndraSter> it is $60 for <100EUR or w/e
[14:41:42] <learningc> OndraSter: and I'm not in usa
[14:41:53] <OndraSter> still 8 USD to get part worth $5.. :P
[14:41:59] <mrfrenzy> we have a nice small business who sells cheap atmel chips http://www.swcab.nu/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=ATMEL_IC&cart_id=1330893131.14135
[14:42:24] <OndraSter> hmm
[14:42:29] <learningc> OndraSter: what about farnell?
[14:42:45] <OndraSter> farnell has them "preparing, you can pre-order"
[14:42:55] <learningc> mrfrenzy: well, you can get atmel chips free
[14:42:56] <dirty_d> OndraSter, mouser
[14:43:03] <dirty_d> i got mine for $5
[14:43:04] <OndraSter> mouser has expensive shipping aswell
[14:43:10] <dirty_d> they are 3.70 if > 10
[14:43:12] <dirty_d> oh
[14:43:21] <OndraSter> anything US based is out of question
[14:43:28] <OndraSter> and I need like two or three tops :P
[14:43:38] <dirty_d> OndraSter, check out that dorkbotpdx batch order
[14:43:45] <dirty_d> maybe you can save some with that
[14:43:56] <OndraSter> something like 32kB flash, USB, external RAM would be awesome
[14:44:01] <OndraSter> and a lot of IO pins
[14:44:07] <OndraSter> at least two 8bit ports unused
[14:44:35] <learningc> OndraSter: you are buying atmel chips?
[14:44:45] <OndraSter> I want to try xmegas someday
[14:45:11] <mrfrenzy> me too
[14:56:40] <dirty_d> i have the atxmega32a4u
[14:56:44] <dirty_d> tqfp-44
[14:57:01] <dirty_d> its pretty damn nice
[14:58:41] <OndraSter> hmm sounds reasonable
[14:58:46] <OndraSter> how much did it cost, dirty_d ?
[15:00:13] <dirty_d> OndraSter, 5
[15:00:18] <OndraSter> hmm
[15:00:25] <OndraSter> that's more than I'd expect :P
[15:00:31] <OndraSter> $3 - $4 maybe
[15:00:39] <dirty_d> its 3.70 if you buy 10
[15:00:43] <OndraSter> hmm
[15:01:26] <dirty_d> $5 isnt really that much at all for something you can do so much with
[15:16:06] <dirty_d> damnit, forgot to buy hacksaw blades at lowes
[15:17:29] <Casper> go back
[15:17:42] <dirty_d> i dont go back
[15:17:57] <Casper> then go forward D:
[15:17:58] <Casper> :D
[15:19:53] <dirty_d> i just may
[15:27:19] <specing> dirty_d: for $5 I'd go with an arm
[15:28:54] <dirty_d> the arm wouldnt have as many nifty peripherals would it?
[15:29:40] <dirty_d> that xmega has 16 timer channels with lots of useful modes of operation like frequency measurement and pulse width measurement etc
[15:30:48] <dirty_d> 12 bit 2Ms/s adc DAC lots of stuff
[15:31:57] <amee2k> what the.
[15:32:07] <amee2k> i just heard a cap pop in my room
[15:32:28] <dirty_d> youre losin it
[15:32:38] <amee2k> i'm smelling it too
[15:33:21] <amee2k> *something* here smells burnt
[15:35:10] <amee2k> ...
[15:35:19] <amee2k> the charger for my cordless phone is dead
[15:35:35] <dirty_d> lol
[15:35:53] <amee2k> wall wart doesn't wart anymore
[15:37:18] <amee2k> and it smells funny too
[15:39:17] <learningc> specing: or a PIC?
[15:39:25] <pingec> How do I wire and additional tx and rx over the rs232 ?
[15:40:26] <pingec> the same way as the first pair?
[15:41:19] <specing> learningc: WHAT? Im not touching a PIC ever again...
[15:41:26] <specing> :P
[15:42:02] <amee2k> pingec: you can run one TX to none or more RXs, but two TXs are mutually exclusive on the same line
[15:42:24] <amee2k> unless you use a 3-state buffer to disconnect TXs that aren't currently transmitting
[15:42:42] <OndraSter> megas have some kind of "multiprocessor mode"
[15:42:46] <OndraSter> no idea how that works, never tried it
[15:42:55] <amee2k> me neither
[15:46:05] <learningc> specing: why not?
[15:46:09] <OndraSter> http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=130876&sid=45ce5968586009d8ff18932d0b5feda0#130876
[15:46:50] <pingec> thats not what i meant, anyways ill just try and see
[15:47:04] <pingec> i've never converted 4 lines with max232
[15:47:47] <specing> learningc: Im too spoiled by the uber supreme AVR architecture (+gcc support)
[15:48:26] <learningc> specing: supreme architecture??
[15:48:58] <learningc> specing: like?
[15:51:16] <specing> 32 registers versus one?
[15:51:36] <specing> 200 instructions versus ~30?
[15:51:48] <specing> The list goes on...
[15:55:03] <Hackbat> Okay I have a problem, my chip seems to think it's 0x535353
[15:55:15] <learningc> specing: not sure if they really are supreme compared to the pic
[15:55:57] <OndraSter> damnit I need a scope :(
[15:58:11] <learningc> specing: pic too has 32 registers btw
[15:58:32] <specing> Not working ones
[15:58:56] <learningc> specing: you mean?
[15:59:17] <specing> PIC has only one working register, the W reg
[16:00:12] <learningc> specing: no, they have 32 registers and 2 divide/multiply registers
[16:01:16] <specing> Im not sure that is PIC you are talking about
[16:01:42] <learningc> specing: and are faster than avr
[16:01:50] <specing> LOL, they are not
[16:02:17] <learningc> specing: 1.5 mips at @80MHz
[16:02:25] <specing> see, not PIC
[16:02:33] <learningc> not pic?
[16:02:38] <learningc> what do you mean?
[16:03:20] <specing> you are obviously talking about PIC32
[16:03:39] <learningc> specing: yes of course
[16:03:41] <specing> NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH PIC
[16:04:06] <learningc> aren't they pic too??
[16:04:31] <specing> they are PIC32
[16:04:41] <specing> which is a TOTALY different architecture
[16:05:15] <learningc> yeah, not pic10, pic12, pic16, pic18
[16:05:42] <specing> And if we are talking about PIC32, they can't beat the AT91SAMs and other atmel 32-bit MCUs :D
[16:06:12] <learningc> specing: what do the 32 atmel have more?
[16:07:35] <specing> surf over to their site and find out
[16:08:26] <learningc> specing: they are less fast for one
[16:08:45] <learningc> specing: up to 66MHz only
[16:09:08] <specing> Then explain how come I run Linux at 200Mhz on an ATMEL chip?
[16:10:05] <learningc> but that's different architecture
[16:10:14] <learningc> these are ARM, no?
[16:11:16] <specing> yes
[16:11:50] <specing> but does MC make ARMs?
[16:11:54] <learningc> specing: do you need extra external memory to run Linux on these chips?
[16:12:00] <specing> yes
[16:12:06] <specing> I have 64Meg
[16:12:20] <specing> Its a tqfp-208 part
[16:12:21] <learningc> specing: you designed your own board?
[16:12:23] <specing> no
[16:12:37] <learningc> where did you buy the board from?
[16:12:44] <specing> local uni
[16:13:04] <learningc> is that board available elsewhere?
[16:13:11] <specing> nope
[16:13:48] <learningc> specing: so it's being designed by the uni/students?
[16:13:59] <specing> yes
[16:14:23] <learningc> specing: any schematics you can share?
[16:15:55] <specing> learningc: http://laps.fri.uni-lj.si/fri-sms/listine.php
[16:16:34] <learningc> thanks
[16:16:42] <learningc> it's a monster chip though
[16:17:00] <specing> better than a BGA
[16:17:29] <learningc> what's the second biggest chip on top left?
[16:17:58] <specing> JTAG
[16:19:49] <Hackbat> Okay Stranded wire SUCKS for doing solder work on protoboard
[16:20:33] <Hackbat> little single TINY wire put enough current from Miso to mosi to fuck up my reading
[16:22:19] <learningc> specing: how many layers does this board has?
[16:22:28] <specing> I don't know
[16:22:51] <specing> But Im sure less than the amount CapnKernel can submit for fabbing
[16:22:55] <OndraSter> :D
[16:25:14] <specing> You can't really expect to run linux on a homemade 1-layer board
[16:26:00] <specing> Maybe you can, but the board would be bigger than an ITX PC board
[16:26:14] <specing> and have spaghetti wiring everywhere
[16:30:12] <learningc> specing: and CapnKernel makes how many layers board?
[16:31:14] <specing> 6
[16:33:12] <specing> I think you need to order 5 though
[16:33:40] <specing> So you get five exact computers that noone else has
[16:34:02] <specing> although I recommend going for a different chip, AT91SAM9260 is a bit expensive
[16:34:27] <learningc> ah ok
[16:34:55] <learningc> and that big chip isn't on the schematic
[16:35:10] <specing> the JTAG?
[16:35:32] <specing> quite possibly, its windows-only stuff from a local company
[16:35:33] <learningc> I don't know what is it
[16:35:56] <specing> not sure why they used it, since the board is clearly meant to run linux
[16:36:04] <specing> and be open and whatnot
[16:36:19] <learningc> the chip is named U13
[16:36:25] <specing> Im going to design a better board anyway
[16:36:44] <learningc> to run ARM?
[16:38:23] <specing> yes
[16:43:14] <rue_house> arms dont run silly, legs do
[16:45:20] <specing> :D
[16:45:23] <specing> RUE!
[16:45:28] <specing> Where have you been?
[16:48:39] <rue_house> trying to get ahead of life
[16:52:48] <specing> rue_house: Cool, any success?
[16:53:13] <rue_house> no
[16:53:30] <specing> Ah, so we are even
[16:54:50] <learningc> rue_house: what are you up to?
[16:54:54] <Roklobsta> specing: what type of ARM board do you want to design?
[16:55:16] <specing> something capable of running linux
[16:55:17] <Roklobsta> i am late to the conversation
[16:55:29] <Roklobsta> i must be on drugs. I thought this was #avr
[16:55:34] <specing> It is
[16:55:43] <Roklobsta> ;)
[16:56:02] <specing> the regular arm channel is quite dead
[16:56:12] <Roklobsta> yeah which is disappointing.
[16:56:30] <Roklobsta> i want to make a cortex board
[16:56:45] <specing> Can be done
[16:56:57] <specing> (no external memory): kids level
[16:57:24] <learningc> specing: I want to make an ARM board too
[16:58:03] <Roklobsta> oh yawn. I have done 8 layer TI DSP boards with SDRAM and PCI buses. My peepee is biggest.
[16:58:36] <specing> ego++
[16:58:55] <learningc> Roklobsta: you have done jhigh speed boards?
[16:58:59] <learningc> high
[16:59:07] <Roklobsta> mmm, a while ago.
[16:59:43] <learningc> Roklobsta: any suggestions/tips on high speed board design?
[16:59:56] <Roklobsta> FPGA, PCI bus and SDRAM. if you get the calculations right for track impedances the fecker workes first time
[16:59:56] <specing> keep stuff close :D
[17:00:40] <Roklobsta> close but no closer.
[17:00:49] <learningc> Roklobsta: how do you calculate track impedance?
[17:01:20] <Roklobsta> i always derive from first principles of maxwells equations in integral form. I can't ever remember the formulas.
[17:01:47] <Roklobsta> i mean remeber the microstrip and stripline formaulas. easiest to rederive.
[17:01:55] * Roklobsta waves it about.
[17:02:29] <learningc> ah, yes
[17:03:01] <Roklobsta> I kid, I found a nice websire that had really nice interactive calculaitons for all sorts of striplines and microstrips. When I crosschecked the PCB layout in protel, protel was in agreement WRT the impedances.
[17:03:03] <learningc> and what about vias? do they change the impedance when you encounter them?
[17:03:13] <Roklobsta> yes, minimise vias.
[17:03:40] <Roklobsta> keep your high speed tracks running over an unbroken power or ground plane.
[17:04:10] <Roklobsta> make sure you PCI and memory clock lines are longer by the appropriate amount.
[17:04:45] <Roklobsta> make sure your data and adress busses are the same length - which can make for some interesting roueting.
[17:05:14] <Roklobsta> I wrote up a nice document as a design reference for the company - damn I wish I kept a copy.
[17:05:19] <learningc> Roklobsta: like a zigzag routing I see on computer main boards?
[17:05:24] <Roklobsta> yeah
[17:05:35] <Roklobsta> the squiggles buy you extra time.
[17:05:46] <learningc> Roklobsta: where did you learn about high speed board design?
[17:05:56] <Roklobsta> but things like the PCI specification spell out very clearly how to do thing.
[17:06:32] <Roklobsta> I learned on the job reading design specs and UltraCAD also had/has a lot of nice info.
[17:07:28] <Roklobsta> the design rules were validated as the three boards made while I was at the company all worked first go.
[17:07:59] <learningc> cad validates impedance of the trace too?
[17:08:44] <Roklobsta> Protel does.
[17:09:16] <Roklobsta> I installed Kicad for the first time the other day and was pleasantly surprised to see the calculator tool has all you need for impedance calcs.
[17:09:56] <Roklobsta> The Transline tab has pretty much all you need.
[17:09:56] <mrfrenzy> has anyone designed a board with stm32? any special considerations needed?
[17:10:12] <Roklobsta> don't forget VCC and GND. very important.
[17:10:36] <learningc> Roklobsta: any reference/documentation/books you recommend me for high speed board design?
[17:12:37] <Roklobsta> I found http://www.ultracad.com/calc.htm to be useful. have a look there. honestly it was a mishmash of web reading and things like PCI specifications.
[17:14:09] <Roklobsta> then careful rule planning and rule enforcing when laying out the board.
[17:14:39] <Roklobsta> Kicads PCB calculator will help a lot
[17:16:20] <Roklobsta> These boards were for tempest rated systems too, so they had to radiate as little as possible.
[17:18:01] <Roklobsta> OH, as far as that goes a ground ring around the perimiter helped a lot for emission suppression. Basically it's a grounf ring on all layes around the perimeter all connected at regular intervals with vias.
[17:18:24] <Roklobsta> that stops the edge of the board acting like an antenna.
[17:19:11] <learningc> a ground ring? just like the fence around a house?
[17:19:22] <Roklobsta> yes I am trying to find a pic for you
[17:20:06] <learningc> I'm going to try designing a board for a 1GHz sitara actually
[17:21:53] <Roklobsta> ok. what are the speeds off chip?
[17:23:32] <learningc> maybe 500MHz?
[17:24:01] <learningc> is 1GHz the internal bus?
[17:24:25] <specing> Where are you going to buy it?
[17:25:14] <learningc> I did not buy it, I sampled it from TI
[17:25:26] <specing> How come?
[17:25:33] <specing> How do you people get these samples?
[17:25:43] <learningc> well, they have sample of the Sitara
[17:26:05] <learningc> can't you get samples from TI?
[17:26:12] <specing> LOL - Pricing starts at $4.99 in 100,000 unit quantities.
[17:26:34] <specing> learningc: idk, are there any qualifications?
[17:27:17] <learningc> specing: no, not that I know, well I had an university email address, but I'm not in uni anymore
[17:27:43] <Roklobsta> learning: I just took some pics of one of the boards. You can see the ground ring. http://helix.air.net.au/public/
[17:28:09] <learningc> and the chip is like $30 which they send for free, but only 1
[17:28:36] <learningc> thanks, Roklobsta
[17:28:51] <specing> Ok, Im going to try when Im at a uni
[17:29:26] <learningc> ah, I see them :)
[17:29:49] <learningc> specing: well, are you working for a company?
[17:30:11] <learningc> you could use a company address too
[17:30:41] <specing> learningc: No, Im in high school
[17:30:48] <learningc> ohhh
[17:31:37] <specing> learningc: but the chip is BGA, right?
[17:31:50] <learningc> yes
[17:31:50] <Roklobsta> learningc: hav e a look at those two pics. you can clearly see the guard ring. It lives on all 8 layers and is connected with vias every 15mm
[17:32:11] <Roklobsta> leanring: one of the pics is blurry. I have put a better one on. *42.JPG
[17:32:25] <learningc> Roklobsta: cool, I'll keep that in mind when designing my boards
[17:32:44] <dirty_d> i think i managed to drill all these holes by hand within 0.005"
[17:32:49] <Roklobsta> install kicad at least just to play with the PCB calculator tool
[17:33:32] <learningc> Roklobsta: yes, I installed kicad, but never played with it yet since I tend to use eagle :/
[17:34:13] <Roklobsta> pir8 eagle?
[17:34:26] <learningc> pir8?
[17:34:38] <learningc> no
[17:34:44] <learningc> just the freeware version
[17:34:46] <Roklobsta> the free version doens't let you do much
[17:34:54] <Roklobsta> 2 layers?
[17:35:00] <learningc> yes, I'm still on 2 layers :/
[17:35:14] * Roklobsta laughs and points at learningc.
[17:35:20] <learningc> that's why I installed kicad, in hope to learn it soon
[17:35:30] <Roklobsta> I jest.
[17:35:48] <Roklobsta> kicad looks a lot like Protell99se which that 8 layer board in the pics was made on.
[17:35:58] <Roklobsta> there are 4 bga chips on the other side too.
[17:36:14] <Roklobsta> don't get sucked into the Altium hype machine.
[17:36:21] <learningc> Roklobsta: what the difficulties mostly in designing high speed boards?
[17:36:59] <Roklobsta> just make sure you have a good set of rules and follow them strictly. i did that board in 2004 and not much since so i don't recall everythign now.
[17:37:12] <Roklobsta> i really wish a kept my design brief.
[17:38:01] <learningc> :(
[17:38:36] <learningc> Roklobsta: and the set of rules are like?
[17:38:57] <Roklobsta> on the *46 pic have a look at the tracks coming off the IDT chip. they were designed using a microstrip profile over a ground or power plane. The width and spacing is particular. That bus ran at over 100MHz.
[17:39:26] <Roklobsta> learning: honestly, i dont' rem. it tookup quite a few pages with tables, diagrams and formulas.
[17:40:14] <Roklobsta> you'll see the tracks coming off the QPF (Spartan) chip above it have a different width and spacing.
[17:40:48] <Roklobsta> The IDT chip is SDRAM and those tracks were all electrically the same length.
[17:41:10] <learningc> ah, I see
[17:41:25] <learningc> so you had to account for impedances?
[17:41:30] <Roklobsta> yes
[17:42:02] <Roklobsta> taht board is one of the prototypes I was allowed to tak ehome.
[17:43:16] <Roklobsta> it was a bit useless because in spite of design reviews by 3 other engineers noone notice the ethernet pins were not connected to the DSP.... <head slap>
[17:43:32] <learningc> but the traces running parallel out of the IDT chip don't interfere with each others capacitively and inductively?
[17:43:39] <Roklobsta> not enough to be a problem.
[17:44:23] <learningc> the bus traces seem to be quite large, won't that increase coupling?
[17:44:53] <Roklobsta> that was what was calculated using microsptrip formulas
[17:45:05] <learningc> ah I see
[17:45:32] <Roklobsta> i think you'll find it's OK. the electric field lines don't encroach on the other tracks it seems
[17:45:42] <learningc> and does the microstrip formula take into account parallel traces, or just the top copper and ground/power?
[17:45:49] <Roklobsta> yes parallel.
[17:46:09] <Roklobsta> argh that doc had the answers to all your questions
[17:46:42] <learningc> :(
[17:46:55] <Roklobsta> I am rusty as it's been 8 years since I did it...
[17:47:00] <Roklobsta> WTF have I been doing since then?!!?
[17:47:08] <Roklobsta> it's a haze.
[17:47:10] <learningc> yeah, WTF!! lol
[17:47:36] <Roklobsta> I have gone from 8 layer PCB design to dribbing over 6 pin avrs.
[17:47:45] <learningc> lol
[17:47:57] <Roklobsta> it's the dementia, I am sure.
[17:48:30] <learningc> how fast a board did you design?
[17:48:50] <Roklobsta> I think that DSP ran at ~400MHz internally.
[17:48:57] <Roklobsta> the SDRAM was 100MHz.
[17:49:03] <learningc> that's something at that time
[17:49:46] <Roklobsta> eh ... no. I did work on a similar system in 1998 with radar.
[17:49:46] <learningc> and how long would it take you to design a board
[17:50:08] <Roklobsta> a fw months.
[17:50:19] <Roklobsta> schematics, design review, PCB layout
[17:50:38] <learningc> what would be the share between each?
[17:50:56] <Roklobsta> 3/2
[17:51:02] <learningc> (just want to get an idea of how long it should take)
[17:51:18] <Roklobsta> the schematic took the longest as we were writing the spec first.
[17:51:29] <Roklobsta> the company went all iso9000 so we had to do things properly
[17:51:35] <learningc> ah I see
[17:51:49] <learningc> so 2 month for PCB layout?
[17:51:50] <Roklobsta> which is fine, doing properly = works first time (mostly)
[17:52:01] <Roklobsta> yeah about 2.
[17:52:13] <Roklobsta> that includes peer review and so on.
[17:52:16] <learningc> and what's the complexity of the board?
[17:52:29] <Roklobsta> 8 layers
[17:53:02] <Roklobsta> 400+ pin BGA DSP, 2 BGA SDRAM chips, BGA PCI interface chip, QFP spartan, analog devices audio
[17:53:26] <Roklobsta> 3 or 4 switch mode psus that's to all the stupid different voltages needed
[17:53:59] <Roklobsta> design consideration for EMI emissions and RF susceptibility
[17:54:29] <Roklobsta> so it was Done Right.
[17:54:33] <learningc> i see
[17:55:09] <learningc> that spartan has how many "leads"?
[17:55:24] <Roklobsta> it's a TQ144
[17:55:44] <Roklobsta> the DSP out of shot is 400+ BGA.
[17:56:03] <learningc> the idt chip is the DSP?
[17:56:07] <Roklobsta> TMS320C6412 (C)2003
[17:56:17] <Roklobsta> no, the IDT is one of 2 SDRAMs
[17:56:51] <learningc> how many ball does one has?
[17:57:33] <Roklobsta> in *42 you can see the underside and all the vias for the BGA parts
[17:57:44] <Roklobsta> g
[17:58:58] <learningc> *246 picture?
[17:59:30] <Roklobsta> yes
[17:59:34] <Roklobsta> Oh it was 133Mhz.
[17:59:48] <Roklobsta> oh it was sram not sdram
[17:59:50] <Roklobsta> http://www.idt.com/products/memory-logic/srams/zero-bus-turnaround-zbt/71v67603-33v-256k-x-36-synchronous-33v-io-pipelined-sram
[18:00:11] <learningc> ah, you update it
[18:00:21] <learningc> I just refreshed
[18:00:55] <Roklobsta> yeah
[18:01:17] <learningc> the beige components are resistor networks?
[18:01:31] <Roklobsta> capacitors
[18:01:32] <jadew> what you guys do sounds so cool, wish I took that route when I was a kid
[18:02:03] <Roklobsta> i am basking in days of glory long ago....
[18:02:05] <learningc> jadew: Im not there yet
[18:02:24] <Roklobsta> like i said, now I drool on #avr
[18:02:31] <jadew> heh Roklobsta, I suspect you're still designing electronics tho
[18:02:42] <learningc> Roklobsta: how big is that board?
[18:02:50] <Roklobsta> i have been out of the electronics loop for a long while. trying to get bakc in.
[18:03:07] <Roklobsta> 3"x6"
[18:03:09] <Roklobsta> about
[18:03:39] <learningc> 7.5cm x 15 cm ...
[18:04:07] <learningc> any way to see the overall picture of the top side?
[18:04:16] <Roklobsta> mr ruler agrees! My eyes guessed initially.
[18:04:24] <Roklobsta> yeah, fly down to my house
[18:04:37] <jadew> heh
[18:04:44] <Roklobsta> hang on
[18:05:59] <learningc> Roklobsta: what have you been doing outside the electronics loop, if you don't mind? :P
[18:06:46] <Roklobsta> oh, network manager, child raiser, and 8051 embedded bug smasher.
[18:07:01] <Roklobsta> oh and a bunch of time in the telecoms test industry
[18:08:24] <learningc> Roklobsta: does the few months of board design include programming the board also?
[18:09:17] <Roklobsta> no that was for the software weenies
[18:09:28] <Roklobsta> hang on , editing the topside pic.
[18:11:47] <learningc> ok
[18:12:18] <pingec> Theres no command in asm to set a bit in an IO reg. like PORTB, right?
[18:12:24] <Roklobsta> ok refresh
[18:12:25] <pingec> I mean directly
[18:13:03] <learningc> wow, nice board Roklobsta!
[18:13:27] <Roklobsta> thanks. it is part of an Radio over IP system
[18:13:50] <learningc> how many engineers worked on it in total?
[18:14:10] <Roklobsta> the DSP and AD audio chip was to send and receive voice and digital data over UHF and VHF radio systems.
[18:14:21] <Roklobsta> so the dsp could do modem stuff.
[18:14:44] <Roklobsta> oh, 3 hardware
[18:14:53] <learningc> + you?
[18:14:59] <Roklobsta> this is once boiard of about 10+ for the whole system and it's one of the smaller ones.
[18:15:03] <Roklobsta> me included
[18:15:10] <jadew> pingec, I think it's called sbi
[18:15:15] <jadew> and cbi would clear a bit
[18:15:33] <Roklobsta> the point is that i made a bunch of very clear design rules and we followed them closely to get a result such as this
[18:16:20] <Roklobsta> now, I'll be honest and say I did the schematic and design rules and supervised a VERY good PCB layut guy. So this layout guy who is much much faster than me did my layout bidding.
[18:16:30] <Roklobsta> eveyr day I checked and corrected his work.
[18:16:35] <learningc> you were the schematic design engineer or the one to design the layout?
[18:16:52] <Roklobsta> both
[18:16:53] <learningc> ok, you answered the question, sorry
[18:17:21] <Roklobsta> it's just that the PCB guy was like a blur at the computer. I'd take 4x as loing as him
[18:17:33] <Roklobsta> but he is a 25 year veteran
[18:17:45] <pingec> jadew lol I don't know why I asked that :S
[18:18:02] <Roklobsta> but in the bigger companies that's the norm, the engineers tend not to do the actual layout
[18:18:15] <Roklobsta> i did a few smalle rboards though
[18:18:16] <learningc> and the layout was done manually or autoroute with manual correction?
[18:18:39] <Roklobsta> manual. no autoroute
[18:18:45] <jadew> is autoroute ever used in a serious project?
[18:18:53] <learningc> ah, that's why it takes long long time
[18:19:04] <Roklobsta> uhm, yes, but only in places and using good tools like Mentor Grpahics
[18:19:19] <Roklobsta> one place i worked used autoroute for some parts of the design
[18:19:29] <Roklobsta> but hsi one was not auto at all
[18:19:44] <learningc> I wondered why I took 2 days to manual route a small 2 sided pcb 3cm sqr
[18:20:05] <Roklobsta> yeah you slow. like me
[18:20:20] <learningc> how long should it take?
[18:20:25] <Roklobsta> i don't know
[18:21:01] <learningc> but now I understand it took 2 months to manual your 8layers board
[18:21:02] <jadew> if you know what you're doing I guess it's just a matter of placing the traces one after another
[18:21:46] <Roklobsta> we did try a vialess version of this board
[18:21:47] <learningc> jadew: it's not just placing traces beside each other I think
[18:21:53] <Roklobsta> but the manufacturer had problems
[18:21:58] <jadew> just like any other job, I'm sure it gets repetitive with only a few times of "I wonder how to do this"
[18:22:12] <dirty_d> i hate pcb design
[18:22:19] <dirty_d> trace after trace after trace
[18:22:19] <Roklobsta> the layout guy just *knew* how things shoudl flow
[18:22:30] <jadew> yeah, that's what I'm saying
[18:22:33] <Roklobsta> he could plan well in his head and see ahead.
[18:22:47] <jadew> dirty_d, I don't like it either, but I learned a lot from my mistakes, with the help of a few people in here :)
[18:22:49] <learningc> sometimes youplace tracen then move the components around and had to relocate the traces
[18:22:49] <Roklobsta> i'd fsck around with 100 different ways of doing things
[18:23:08] <dirty_d> i get easily frustrated
[18:23:12] <dirty_d> i hate redoing things
[18:23:42] <dirty_d> i eventually just autorouted certain parts of it one at a time and it came out better than i could manual route
[18:23:43] <dirty_d> lol
[18:23:49] <jadew> my biggest pcb was the one for the power source and I had to rework that twice, because I misplaced the holes for the bolts
[18:23:54] <Roklobsta> but i'd just write a layout document explaining everything I wanted, where stuff should sit on the board, how power planes need to be placed, track impedances and lengths and I'd supervise it every day to make sure it was right.
[18:24:10] <jadew> just to etch it, drill it and place the parts on and figure out I placed the holes in a mirror
[18:24:12] <Roklobsta> it was a good working system
[18:24:30] <dirty_d> there must be an autorouter that can follow rules like that
[18:24:35] <Roklobsta> maybe
[18:24:43] <dirty_d> its definitely possible
[18:24:46] <Roklobsta> but you'd spend so long putting them in. you know, garbage in garbage out
[18:24:54] <dirty_d> like define all the max impedances etc of everything
[18:25:01] <dirty_d> where certain things need to be etc
[18:25:05] <dirty_d> and let her rip
[18:25:18] <jadew> come back in 2 months and it's done
[18:25:23] <dirty_d> naaaah
[18:25:23] <learningc> Roklobsta: you were the lead engineer?
[18:25:23] <dirty_d> lol
[18:25:32] <Roklobsta> no i had a manager
[18:25:38] <Roklobsta> i was lead for this board
[18:25:45] <learningc> ah ok
[18:25:50] <dirty_d> some kinda human assisted autorouter would be cool
[18:26:07] <Roklobsta> I think mentor grpahics doe sthat
[18:26:15] <learningc> and you had experience before in high speed before designing this board?
[18:26:16] <jadew> autorouting logic must be really complex
[18:26:24] <jadew> it's that sort of thing that your brain simply gets
[18:26:26] <Roklobsta> Maybe altium too now I don't know. The board in the pics was done with Protel99se
[18:26:50] <Roklobsta> i think Kicad is a lot like P99se.
[18:27:10] <Roklobsta> You don't need altium to do complex stuff
[18:27:19] <learningc> Roklobsta: and you had experience before in high speed before designing this board?
[18:27:23] <Roklobsta> no
[18:27:33] <Roklobsta> i think we all leanred on the job for this project
[18:27:43] <learningc> so you learned most of it there?
[18:27:45] <Roklobsta> yes
[18:27:46] <learningc> i see
[18:27:49] <Roklobsta> reading
[18:27:53] <Roklobsta> discussin
[18:28:05] <Roklobsta> this was the most complex stuff any of us had worked on
[18:28:30] <learningc> so the reading was part of the designing time mentionned above?
[18:29:20] <jadew> I think learningc is a spy
[18:29:43] <learningc> jadew: I just want to know how long it takes
[18:30:13] <rue_house> YES! I have achived hello world with a mega32!
[18:30:14] <rue_house> :)
[18:30:19] <jadew> I find electronics very similar to programming and the documentation part always takes a bit of time
[18:31:03] <rue_house> hah, no comments eh?
[18:31:17] <jadew> depending on the novelty of the project, documentation can take from 0% to 99% of the development time
[18:31:38] <jadew> rue_house, how do you get the hello world out?
[18:31:42] <rue_house> http://ruemohr.org
[18:31:50] <rue_house> serial
[18:32:57] <jadew> if you were displaying it on a building with a laser pointer, you might have gotten some comments :P
[18:34:06] <jadew> hey, what exactly is a bootloader?
[18:34:14] <rue_house> how about if I take a serial text steam and display it on a building with a laser pointer
[18:34:18] <dirty_d> it loads boots
[18:34:26] <rue_house> in that case, I need working serila first
[18:34:38] <jadew> dirty_d, neat :P
[18:34:49] <rue_house> a bootloader is code that stays on the controller that allows you to have the controller flash itself via one of its communication interfaces
[18:35:02] <jadew> ah, got it
[18:35:43] <rue_house> so, for example, you hold down a button while it resets that causes it to enter the bootloader, and it listens to the serial port for a hex file, and flashes that file to eeprom as it gets it
[18:35:45] <jadew> I suppose you'd need that if you disable reset
[18:36:01] <rue_house> no
[18:36:01] <jadew> yeah, I've dealt with that before, on other devices
[18:36:07] <rue_house> you can use a high voltage programmer
[18:36:07] <jadew> don't think I'll need it on an avr tho
[18:36:48] <rue_house> hmm I have to test this code
[18:37:03] <rue_house> but the controller at the foot of my computer is an 8051
[18:38:06] * rue_house wanders off to go find a mega32 baord
[19:26:49] <jadew> man... eagle would be pretty nice with that big library if the editting interface wouldn't be such a PITA
[20:00:22] <inflex> editing for what?
[20:00:36] <jadew> well, I couldn't get past the schematic
[20:00:56] <jadew> saying the interface is retarded would be an understatement
[20:01:06] <jadew> having to do so many things just to place a wire, is stupid
[20:01:57] <jadew> moving stuff requires you to get in moving mode
[20:02:05] <Landon> so many things? I thought I just hit place wire >.>
[20:02:08] <jadew> scrolling zooms
[20:02:21] <jadew> yeah, hitting place wire is over the hand
[20:02:25] <jadew> you could push a button
[20:02:26] <inflex> scrolling for zoom is nice
[20:02:37] <inflex> click-drag for panning is nice too
[20:02:53] <jadew> no scrolling for zoom is stupid when all the other tools in the world use a modifier key for that
[20:03:03] <jadew> scroll = vertical scroll
[20:03:08] <jadew> it's called scroll for a reason
[20:03:11] <inflex> no thanks, how do you do horizontal scroll then?
[20:03:14] <jadew> shift + scroll horizontal scroll
[20:03:20] <jadew> ctrl + scroll = zoom
[20:03:23] <jadew> standard shortcuts
[20:03:30] <inflex> heh "standard"
[20:03:55] <inflex> oh well, go use another package then
[20:04:11] <jadew> looking for one
[20:04:15] <Tom_itx> good luck
[20:04:29] <inflex> Eagle has its quirks, no one denies that; but it's a good package overall and is easier to use than gEDA
[20:04:56] <inflex> buttloads cheaper than OrCAD... you could try dipTrace.
[20:05:00] <jadew> I'm sure it's good, but I can't get passed the interface
[20:05:25] <learningc> or kicad
[20:05:31] <jadew> trying kicad right now
[20:05:56] <learningc> but overall eagle is good, just need to get used to it
[20:06:23] <jadew> software that requires that much getting used to, for the interface is dumb
[20:06:29] <jadew> they followed the normal CAD thing
[20:06:52] <jadew> who would type wire?
[20:06:57] <jadew> to get into wire mode
[20:07:03] <inflex> O_o?
[20:07:04] <jadew> it's drawing, not architecture
[20:07:22] * inflex just shakes his head
[20:07:25] <jadew> inflex, that's why the interface is like it is, they inherited the usual command line way of doing things
[20:07:26] * nevyn likes autocad
[20:07:35] <jadew> yeah, autocad is great
[20:08:18] <jadew> but the thing is that when you're making a schematic, you're not designing objects, you don't need to be so strict in doing things
[20:08:24] <jadew> therefore you don't need a command line
[20:08:38] <nevyn> jadew: I'd like to be able to do things like rotary layouts in a pcb tool
[20:08:55] <jadew> the pcb tool is completely different
[20:08:59] <nevyn> so replicate this pad layout/set of components in a circle around this centrepoint
[20:09:02] <Tom_itx> try pads or altium
[20:09:08] <Tom_itx> see how easy they are to use
[20:09:12] <nevyn> every 45degrees or something
[20:09:16] <jadew> altium is bliss
[20:09:23] <inflex> jadew: so, have you put the parts down first, and starting to connect them up?
[20:09:41] <inflex> what I like about eagle with its system is that you can do quite a lot without touching the keyboard, which is nice
[20:09:43] <jadew> inflex, yeah, but I just don't like how the navigation go, it's very counter intuitive
[20:09:55] <inflex> jadew: no, it's "different"
[20:09:59] <inflex> not "non-intuitive"
[20:10:03] <inflex> intuitive doesn't exist.
[20:10:19] <jadew> inflex, in software, going against the standard is counter intuitive ;)
[20:10:23] <Tom_itx> acad isn't much good for manufacturing parts
[20:10:36] <inflex> jadew: there is no "standard"
[20:10:46] <jadew> I used autocad only in school, but I liked it for designing stuff
[20:10:55] <jadew> inflex, of course there is
[20:11:01] <inflex> jadew: dear god, I wish there was, but there isn't. Between OS X, XP, Vista, Win7, Linux... there's probably a billion standards.
[20:11:03] <Tom_itx> solidworks is alot better
[20:11:36] <jadew> inflex, even so, both OS X and Win XP have standards of their own
[20:11:43] <nevyn> HCI standards?
[20:11:45] <jadew> for example apps are required to have the buttons in a certian order
[20:11:49] <inflex> jadew: so how do you deal with that with a cross-platform app ;)
[20:12:03] <jadew> there is even a standard for the way the light should appear on a program's icon
[20:12:14] <inflex> There's no true "intuitive standards", the fact that OS's seem to change their whole UI every release or two is fairly indicative of that.
[20:12:17] <jadew> inflex, doesn't matter, just follow a normal standard
[20:12:25] <inflex> jadew: show me this "standard".
[20:12:31] <jadew> for example, don't redefine scroll
[20:12:48] <jadew> which does, exactly what its name says, in the majority of the programs
[20:12:51] <jadew> it scrolls
[20:12:54] <inflex> jadew: there are "recommended practices", but there are no true standards for human-interfaces, and certainly no intuitive ones, only learned.
[20:13:05] <jadew> ctrl + scroll zooms, both in browsers and other editors of different kinds
[20:13:27] <jadew> inflex, ok maybe standard is the wrong word, but you get what I mean
[20:13:41] <jadew> the usual way
[20:14:02] <inflex> jadew: I do - which is why I'm debating with you - because how then do you respond when someone says "I prefer scroll to zoom and click-drag to pan" ?
[20:14:17] <inflex> is that person or groups view any less representitive?
[20:14:23] <jadew> yes
[20:14:33] <jadew> here's an experiment for you
[20:14:38] <jadew> open up a browser
[20:14:40] <jadew> scroll
[20:14:45] <jadew> hold ctrl, scroll again
[20:14:52] <jadew> open up a decent text editor
[20:15:01] <jadew> scroll, hold ctrl, scroll again
[20:15:04] <Tom_itx> why do i need to experiment?
[20:15:07] <jadew> open up photoshop, do the same
[20:15:13] <Tom_itx> i have no problem with the tools i use
[20:15:19] <Tom_itx> i'm adaptable
[20:15:27] <Tom_itx> and can learn a new interface pretty easy
[20:15:54] <inflex> indeed, I actually prefer zoom-to-scroll and find it annoying in other CAD/graphics apps when they use the scroll / scroll-shift to do it
[20:16:25] <jadew> inflex, that's probably because you're used with the few apps that do that
[20:16:30] <inflex> I think it's more intuitive to do it in graphics apps the other way. Sure, in text/web stuff where zooming isn't really a "normal" operation, I prefer then the scroll-to-pan
[20:16:52] <jadew> but the majority of people are used to what I said, which pretty much has become the normal way of doing things
[20:17:00] <inflex> well, a majority of people use windows.
[20:17:04] <inflex> doesn't say a lot.
[20:17:48] <inflex> just because it's "what everyone else uses" or "what people are used to" doesn't mean that the alternatives are "dumb" or "non intuitive", in fact, sometimes it's precisely because of people breaking away from the "norms" that we improve.
[20:18:09] <Tom_itx> wordperfect had their own way and was the defacto standard for a long time until microship came along and said it wasn't the way to do things
[20:18:23] <Tom_itx> standards change every day
[20:18:23] <inflex> Aaah, but WordPerfect was perfect! v5.1 :D
[20:18:41] * inflex was most disgrunted when the world moved to MS Word.
[20:19:00] <jadew> Tom_itx, I agree, but as a comparison, have you used Altium Designer?
[20:19:19] <Tom_itx> no but i've used pads
[20:19:38] <inflex> Thing is, Eagle works well enough, it's priced well enough for the bulk of what we do, it's cross-platform, it's well supported; I'm happy to deal with some UI quirks.
[20:19:42] <Tom_itx> i don't need to spend thousands for what i need to accomplish either
[20:19:47] <inflex> For me, the whole cut-paste thing in Eagle is a vastly more annoying quirk
[20:20:12] * nevyn actually tried wordperfect 5.1 after using word2 for macand word for windows 5
[20:20:17] <nevyn> I prefered wordperfecft
[20:20:22] <nevyn> it made more sense
[20:20:37] <inflex> what I liked about WP5.1 is that it stopped you trying to tweak the look of the document
[20:20:59] <inflex> when WYSIWYG came out in force with MS Word the quality of documents just went to hell
[20:21:12] * inflex still uses LaTeX by preference.
[20:22:11] <Landon> word has been getting better about that lately thankfully
[20:22:30] <Landon> you can still tweak if you want, but it's much easier to get styles set up
[20:24:07] <Roklobsta> i have found libreoffice to be good for doing some technical doco i am wrtiting
[20:24:20] <inflex> What wasnice at least about MS Word was that it provided an excellent data set of why people need to be trained.
[20:25:04] <inflex> Still, just as people were getting used to Office 2003 etc, then MS comes out with the "Ribbon" interface... nice way to blow the whole intuitive thing to dust
[20:25:16] <Roklobsta> libre's layout and styles are easy to edit and the doc looks good
[20:25:28] <inflex> ja, LO is doing a decent job.
[20:25:30] <Roklobsta> i did think of using latex but the client would <head asplode>.
[20:25:56] <Roklobsta> i actually started out using scribus but that turned into a PITA
[20:25:57] <inflex> Roklobsta: true. You could try LyX - but I admit, setting up a nicely working LyX + TeX system on a Windows machine is not so much fun
[20:26:05] <inflex> otoh, LyX on Linux is fine.
[20:26:22] <Roklobsta> at least with libre the client can edit it in the future without too much toruble if they need to
[20:26:22] <inflex> ugh yeah, scribus needs a bit more yet. Inkscape otoh has done well.
[20:27:08] <Roklobsta> scribus was fine but once i wanted to do nice tables I ended up doing trhem in libre, export to EPS and then scribus was very very slow to render them. so I ditched it
[20:27:33] <Roklobsta> and the doc now looks much the same in libre as it did in scribus
[20:28:09] <Roklobsta> oh the ribbon in MSword is PITA. screw you MS
[20:28:22] <Roklobsta> i found i could easily just get stuck in with libre
[20:28:23] <inflex> ja, I do novel publishing, LO isn't too bad, but I have to admit still finding the output from TeX to be superior, particularly in the justifications.
[20:28:51] <inflex> well, we have Win8/Metro to contend with next
[20:31:48] <Roklobsta> i said to a mate today i'd wait for win9
[20:31:55] <Roklobsta> win7 is fine
[20:32:12] <Roklobsta> mrs roklobsta refuses to ditch her XP laptop
[20:54:02] <inflex> had a win machine almsot send me up the wall the other day... couldn't install IE9, kept failing at the last moment, couldn't uninstall IE8 properly either... and nothing was showing up in the Windows "Optional Features".
[20:54:26] <inflex> Fortunately FFox and Chrome were all too happy to take IE's place.
[20:55:22] <jadew> FF got crappy too
[20:55:46] <jadew> too bad it has all the nice plugins
[20:55:50] <Tom_itx> well after installing as5 my brouser quit working
[20:56:04] <jadew> as?
[20:56:11] <jadew> avr studio
[20:56:13] <jadew> got it
[20:56:30] <jadew> Tom_itx, which browser?
[20:57:09] <Tom_itx> ie
[20:57:12] <inflex> FF10 is quite nice
[20:57:26] <jadew> inflex, it is, but it's full of bugs
[20:57:27] <Tom_itx> i'm using 10
[20:57:28] <inflex> all the browsers wax and wane - IE9 isn't too bad finally
[20:57:46] <inflex> jadew: such as? I use it 24/7, sure, all software has bugs, but nothing too significant that I've noticed in FF
[20:57:52] <inflex> certainly no worse than Chrome or IE
[20:58:04] <jadew> inflex, the end user won't notice them
[20:58:15] <jadew> but if you write HTML & CSS you do
[20:58:28] <inflex> jadew: such as?
[20:58:58] <jadew> nothing comes to mind now, I just remember that I wrote code that worked perfectly fine in all other browsers (so it was ok) but not in FF
[20:59:07] <inflex> I guessed as much
[20:59:07] <jadew> which didn't use to happen
[20:59:18] <jadew> FF almost used to be on par with Opera
[20:59:30] <inflex> FF/Chrome/IE intercompatibility is still with its issues... but it is improving all around
[20:59:47] <inflex> I for one am thankful that CSS3 / HTML5 is getting a stronger hold
[20:59:59] <jadew> oh, I know intercompatibility issues, I mean real bugs
[21:00:06] <jadew> yeah, me too
[21:00:58] <inflex> all the sites I write tend to work fine on the browsers, though IE9 still has the odd hiccup with some CSS, thank goodness at least jQuery solves the get/set pains of old.
[21:01:18] <inflex> some horrors like hobbyking.com break randomly
[21:02:32] <inflex> About the only software that I can genuinely say I hate are things like McAfee AV, Norton, etc
[21:03:00] <inflex> By no means a fan of Microsoft, but I have to congratulate them on providing a usable AV solution finally.
[21:03:27] <inflex> ( which doesn't turn your system into a tar pit and doesn't try to trick you as you uninstall it )
[21:03:48] <jadew> I use clamwin av
[21:03:54] <jadew> only scans when I tell it to
[21:04:14] <jadew> I don't get viruses anyway, but it's good to have around
[21:04:19] <inflex> Clam is nice, they even use some of my sourcecode, but I admit to preferring MS Security Essentials
[21:05:06] <inflex> (they forked off my MIME decoding engine)
[21:05:52] <jadew> nice
[21:08:19] <inflex> anyhow, back to the workshop... orders to fill
[21:08:32] * inflex has turned production around, i don't post anything for sale until it's actually finished
[21:08:42] <inflex> as opposed to on-demand building
[21:08:47] <jadew> what are you building?
[21:08:59] <inflex> just regulators for model aircraft
[21:09:06] <jadew> ah, neat
[21:09:21] <inflex> http://www.nqrc.com/?vp=PLD-BAC-55C <=- these things
[21:09:25] <inflex> (uses the Attiny10)
[21:09:56] <inflex> which is programmed using one of Tom_itx programmers
[21:10:08] <jadew> the blue ones? :)
[21:10:19] <inflex> ermm... one of the bare-PCB ones
[21:10:37] <jadew> ah, the push and write ones
[21:10:40] <inflex> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[21:10:52] <inflex> top one on that page
[21:11:00] <jadew> ah, got it
[21:11:18] <inflex> Tom_itx: I wish I knew where those other two went :(
[21:11:25] <inflex> Tom_itx: sad that you lost money overall
[21:13:12] <Tom_itx> i think we both lost on that one
[21:13:16] <Tom_itx> but it is what it is
[21:13:35] <inflex> still odd that it arrived when I went to the alternative address - that bothers me a lot, makes me think that it is the local PO
[21:13:43] <Tom_itx> maybe one of your local post employees is enjoying avrs now :)
[21:14:24] <Tom_itx> i'm inclined to think that since i haven't had any other issues shipping to Au
[21:14:41] <inflex> just glad I do have the two now,
[21:14:48] <Tom_itx> yup
[21:14:58] <Tom_itx> did i send you 1 12v thingies?
[21:15:02] <Tom_itx> or 2
[21:15:15] <inflex> need to start blowing the RST fuse on the T10 so I don't have to solder in the 10K RST
[21:15:21] <inflex> I picked up two I think from you
[21:16:31] <inflex> I think when I've dropped back to the one product build, I'll be okay to put out 10/wk or so
[21:16:46] <inflex> having to build/support 30+ products was destroying me
[21:20:48] <Tom_itx> yeah i like keeping these going but hesitate to do alot more
[21:21:04] <Tom_itx> i have several other board ideas but doubt i follow up