Back
[00:00:15] <Roklobsta> did you go to the hacker ting at swinburne in jan?
[00:00:37] <CapnKernel> Yes. I was behind the desk at the Melbourne hackerspace stand for most of the day.
[00:01:06] <Roklobsta> i didn't hear of it until after
[00:01:09] <Roklobsta> danit
[00:05:21] <keenerd> CapnKernel: How do AVR prices compare to say digikey?
[00:05:46] <keenerd> Small quanities, under 20.
[00:05:47] <CapnKernel> That question is too broad to answer meaningfully
[00:06:19] <keenerd> Not really. I can draw a reasonable multiple between Jameco and digikey for example ;-)
[00:06:19] <LoRez> also, avr prices where?
[00:06:39] <CapnKernel> You mean AVRs I can source?
[00:06:44] <keenerd> Yeah.
[00:06:57] <CapnKernel> You will pay less through me, because I offer free shipping.
[00:07:01] <CapnKernel> But it will take longer.
[00:07:23] <rue_house> CapnKernel, !
[00:07:24] <CapnKernel> For a larger order, if you get DHL (+USD20) you will still pay less than digikey, all up
[00:07:26] <rue_house> right, your the one!
[00:07:28] <CapnKernel> In general
[00:07:35] <keenerd> If you want specifics, how about something odd ball. 20 atmega128rfa1.
[00:07:47] <CapnKernel> I can't understand how those US companies can charge so much for shipping
[00:08:10] <keenerd> CapnKernel: None of us can understand how the chinese charge so little.
[00:08:15] <CapnKernel> Element14 does very nicely in Australia: $10 min order, free shipping, order before 6pm and to your door before 8am next day.
[00:08:28] <CapnKernel> VOLUME
[00:09:02] <rue_house> CapnKernel, do you have sources for non-electronic items too?
[00:09:37] <CapnKernel> Like project hardware? (Boxes, knobs, screws, etc) Yes.
[00:09:52] <CapnKernel> But other stuff, at the moment I'm concentrating on projects.
[00:09:56] <rue_house> how about clear plastic pipe?
[00:10:10] <CapnKernel> If you can imagine it on a bill-of-materials, that's the sort of thing I want to do.
[00:10:30] <rue_house> CapnKernel, your familiar with alibaba?
[00:10:47] <CapnKernel> Not really, because it takes a lot of time to develop a contact in a particular area. If there's no repeat business on that item, you can't get a return on that time
[00:10:57] <CapnKernel> Yes. As a hobbyist, I hate it.
[00:11:03] <CapnKernel> Complete waste of time
[00:11:16] <rue_house> I was gonna say, if I could fnd it there
[00:11:35] <CapnKernel> Companies say "min qty 1", so you spend 20 mins writing an email saying what you want, then they reply "oh sorry, min qty 500". Thanks for wasting my time.
[00:11:54] <CapnKernel> And to add insult to injury, they then send you monthly emails asking "can we supply you anything".
[00:11:55] <CapnKernel> Right.
[00:12:08] <CapnKernel> Yes by all means, go for it. Alibaba and Aliexpress
[00:12:20] <iR0b0t1> Well, you could try buying "samples"...
[00:12:25] <CapnKernel> Ultimately, I don't want to be in the parts-selling business.
[00:12:30] <CapnKernel> I know that sounds hard to understand.
[00:12:39] <CapnKernel> But all of the sellers out there are parts sellers
[00:12:49] <CapnKernel> What I want to sell is the parts for a bill-of-materials
[00:13:11] <iR0b0t1> So you want to sell canned ideas?
[00:13:29] <keenerd> iR0b0t1: You make no sense.
[00:13:39] <CapnKernel> In a way he does.
[00:13:56] <CapnKernel> What I want to sell is the convenience of getting all the things you need for a project, from one place.
[00:14:08] <CapnKernel> Without having to waste hours and hours scouring the internet for sources
[00:14:21] <keenerd> Right, but nothing 'canned' about that. No more than printing a PCB is 'canned'.
[00:14:27] <CapnKernel> Believe me, as a hobbyist I did that myself, and it made me realise there has to be (and there is) a better way.
[00:14:36] <iR0b0t1> Now okay. Do you want to sell packages of a BOM, or do I give you a BOM and you source me parts?
[00:15:01] <iR0b0t1> keenerd: ^
[00:15:27] <CapnKernel> I'll do the former, but more the latter. More importantly, once the BoM's online, you get a weblink from me, put it on your website, and that helps OTHERS make your project quickly, without having all the dramas of sourcing parts.
[00:15:31] <CapnKernel> Plus you get a cut :-)
[00:15:32] <iR0b0t1> He called himself a maker, so I had a feeling it was the first...
[00:15:48] <rue_house> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/528317445/Flexible_PVC_Transparent_Clear_Pipe.html
[00:15:54] <rue_house> I need a bunch liek that for my mecha
[00:16:08] <keenerd> CapnKernel: What if we don't want other's making our stuff?
[00:16:09] <rue_house> but hey, I want clear boxes for hte electrnics too
[00:16:18] <iR0b0t1> Minimum Order Qty: 1 Ton.
[00:16:21] <iR0b0t1> That's a lot of tubing.
[00:16:22] <rue_house> yea
[00:16:32] * iR0b0t1 wonders what he'd do with 1 ton of tubing.
[00:16:44] <CapnKernel> keenerd: When this is all said and done, there'll be a setting saying whether or not you want the list published or not.
[00:17:09] <Roklobsta> an imperial or metric ton?
[00:17:27] <CapnKernel> I mean, if I have the engine to do all this BoM stuff, I'd be silly to say no to using it to fill commercial orders.
[00:17:39] <CapnKernel> But it will exist mostly to help hackers help other hackers to make stuff.
[00:17:44] <keenerd> CapnKernel: Thought so, just checking.
[00:17:46] <CapnKernel> Without spending their life sourcing on the internet.
[00:17:46] <Roklobsta> sounds like a python nasty
[00:18:10] <CapnKernel> ?
[00:18:26] <Roklobsta> big python backend for managing bopm
[00:18:28] <Roklobsta> bom
[00:18:57] <Roklobsta> gawd i hate arduino ide
[00:19:00] <CapnKernel> Well I happen to like Python very much :-)
[00:19:34] <keenerd> CapnKernel: Eh, give a discount to open the BOM. Some PCB shops do that too, one gives you a cut of PCBs sold. But I think you could have quite a number of non-hobbiests vying for your services.
[00:20:25] <Roklobsta> hey abcminiuser
[00:20:31] <abcminiuser> Hey
[00:20:35] <abcminiuser> I'm leaving for work in 5
[00:20:48] <Roklobsta> do i need to dl the ASF for AS5.1 or is it in the 5.1 installs?
[00:21:15] <CapnKernel> Here's a board a guy ordered from me:
http://imagebin.org/201013
[00:21:28] <Roklobsta> haha, 'get your skates on' now has literal meaning for you.
[00:21:29] <abcminiuser> It's in the install
[00:21:34] <abcminiuser> :P
[00:21:36] <CapnKernel> Let's say others want to make it
[00:21:51] <Roklobsta> why is it seperate?
[00:21:58] <CapnKernel> Why should he, the designer waste all his time messing around with parts for others?
[00:22:16] <keenerd> Holy ground plane islands, Capn!
[00:22:17] <CapnKernel> Why should someone else, who wants to make it, have to go through exactly the same sourcing process?
[00:22:24] <abcminiuser> Roamin, you can use it from within Studio, or download seperately and use seperately
[00:22:25] <CapnKernel> And his neighbour, same thing.
[00:22:36] <CapnKernel> Don't look at me, I didn't design it.
[00:23:05] <CapnKernel> what I want to do is save the time of designers and makers, so they can get on with making and designing other cool stuff.
[00:23:08] <Roklobsta> oh, who wants a network enabled rfid anyway?
[00:23:19] <CapnKernel> Hackerspaces :-)
[00:23:37] <Roklobsta> you wanna scan my passport?
[00:23:51] <CapnKernel> Let's be serious now.
[00:23:57] <CapnKernel> It's a door controller for the club room
[00:24:20] <CapnKernel> And it can tweet that someone's at the space, so you know whether or not to go down there and hang out
[00:24:34] <iR0b0t1> Unrelated to what is being meant to be discussed, I would note whoever decided using RFID for a secure application was a good idea should be shot...
[00:24:42] <CapnKernel> It's not a bank...
[00:25:26] <Roklobsta> you coudl just use a wireless doorchime and walk to the door
[00:25:32] <Landon> iR0b0t1: don't shoot the messenger
[00:26:10] <Roklobsta> oh so it's a hacker tracker?
[00:26:22] <Roklobsta> do you need to have rfid implated?
[00:26:40] <keenerd> CapnKernel: Sparkfun is doing something similar with their BatchPCB service. Steal the good parts ;-)
[00:27:02] <CapnKernel> They're doing a very nice job :-)
[00:27:08] <CapnKernel> I admire what they do.
[00:27:16] <CapnKernel> (But I think I can do better)
[00:27:51] <CapnKernel> There's no part of what I want to do that isn't being done by someone else.
[00:27:56] <CapnKernel> But no-one is doing it all.
[00:28:16] <CapnKernel> For example, mouser and element14 have sharable baskets of components, but they don't do PCBs.
[00:28:29] <iR0b0t1> I hate Sparkfun.
[00:28:36] <CapnKernel> Why?
[00:28:52] <iR0b0t1> You can tell they are inflating their profit margin. I don't buy anything from them.
[00:29:04] <CapnKernel> Sparkfun and Seeed and Itead are "module sellers"
[00:29:09] <iR0b0t1> But, helping people is not what they set out to do - they set out to start a business.
[00:29:10] <Roklobsta> sparkfun guys wanna eat too
[00:29:25] <CapnKernel> Sparkfun has an annual turnover of USD20m
[00:29:32] <CapnKernel> Not that I resent them that.
[00:29:33] <keenerd> iR0b0t1: Their single speed hot air gun is not marked up *at all* and works quite well. Other than that, they are overpriced.
[00:30:07] <keenerd> $10 for decent enough SMD rework.
[00:34:35] <keenerd> CapnKernel: I see one disconnect with your plan. Hobbiests source parts, then make the PCB. Then tweak both. And from what I've heard, stuff that is easy to buy in your country might not be easy to get in China.
[00:36:21] <keenerd> I do think it'll work, but I also think it'll be more successful with non-hobbiests who have a fixed bom and want a bunch of them.
[00:36:26] <CapnKernel> I will have the concept of "derived designs": You can't change an existing design, because it has a code which has been published, as a web link. What you *can* do is take a design and clone it, and make changes to that. That applies for both PCBs and BoMs.
[00:37:01] <iR0b0t1> I'll derive every PCB into a cutout of a penis.
[00:37:04] <CapnKernel> I hear what you're saying about relative availabilities in various countries, but I don't think it's going to be a problem.
[00:37:04] <iR0b0t1> Logical conclusion.
[00:37:27] <keenerd> It was a problem for RaspberryPi.
[00:37:29] <CapnKernel> iR0b0t1: Please be mindful of the warning given to you earlier by both Tom_itx and rue_house
[00:38:57] <keenerd> The xtal that was easy to get in Europe was impossible to find in China. (Supposedly.)
[00:42:39] <Roklobsta> if a part isn't made in china there is little point trying to buy it there
[00:43:02] <Roklobsta> like certain semiconductors (SoCs) are made in foundries outside of china
[00:45:53] <Roklobsta> so really, you need to rule out the sorts of things you can't get.
[00:54:06] <CapnKernel> The import tariff on stuff coming into China is just hideous, so chips made overseas tend to be quite pricey here.
[01:05:19] <Roklobsta> how do they enforce tariffs?
[01:06:32] <keenerd> I'm guessing marking them as 'gifts' does not work for getting stuff into the country?
[01:09:43] <CapnKernel> No idea on both
[01:09:57] <CapnKernel> But I mark outgoing stuff as "gift $10" :-)
[01:14:49] <iR0b0t1> woot
[01:14:52] <iR0b0t1> my decoding was a pain
[01:15:00] <iR0b0t1> but my ppm encoding worked the first try :3
[01:15:11] * iR0b0t1 is slightly scared, but we'll see what goes wrong later.
[01:15:17] <CapnKernel> Nice
[01:43:39] <CapnKernel> Oh God you stupid printer. Which part of "print some labels" do you not understand?
[01:43:44] * CapnKernel kicks printer
[01:56:12] <Casper> CapnKernel: the "paper is thicker" part?
[01:57:32] <Roklobsta> cheap chinese labels?
[01:58:17] <Landon> PC LOAD LETTER ?
[02:00:50] <CapnKernel> These labels were not designed to be printed on, I think. The printer doesn't pull them in far enough before it starts to print.
[02:01:16] * CapnKernel channels Jan- and runs around wildy waving arms around
[02:03:22] * Landon imagines this http://farm1.staticflickr.com/45/163079104_098793cc81.jpg
[02:03:31] <Landon> but with an upside down smile
[02:05:07] <theBear> generally printing labels you need to 'setup' a template of some kind ... like margins and crap
[02:05:56] <theBear> if you got regular paper the same size, you can test-print some templates and hold both up to the light to see how close you are without wasting expensive label paper
[03:47:35] <amee2k> < CapnKernel> I was a Zed Emitting Dude. << what? o.O
[03:48:30] <amee2k> err, he left >_<
[03:49:08] * amee2k . o O ( cyanid3 and happiness )
[04:09:16] <ureif> You don't know Zed ?
[04:09:37] <ureif> Didn't see you here on the weekend. Had a string of hot dates ?
[04:17:59] <amee2k> ureif: no idea what a zed is >_>
[04:18:08] <amee2k> sounds kinky
[04:24:53] <monkeyisl> weird, lm35 varies by adc clock freq....
[04:25:27] <amee2k> isn't that a cheap temperature sensor?
[04:25:59] <monkeyisl> seems
[04:26:12] <amee2k> are you overclocking the ADC? >_>
[04:26:17] <monkeyisl> nope
[04:26:36] <amee2k> noise on the signal or supply lines?
[04:28:06] <monkeyisl> fcpu/8 works
[04:28:16] <monkeyisl> fcpu / 6 like 30% up
[04:28:29] <monkeyisl> fcpu / 2 like 280% ...
[04:28:52] <amee2k> whats your fcpu?
[04:29:16] <monkeyisl> adc master clock
[04:29:28] <amee2k> no, the actual value for your setup >_>
[04:29:34] <amee2k> 8MHz?
[04:29:56] <monkeyisl> 16mhz, and adc's fcpu is 2mhz i guess
[04:30:11] <Tom_itx> what about ckdiv8?
[04:30:58] <Tom_itx> yeah 35 is a cheap temp sensor
[04:31:07] <Tom_itx> so is 34
[04:31:12] <Tom_itx> and 75
[04:31:28] <monkeyisl> do i have to adjust sampling rate? lol
[04:32:26] <amee2k> 16MHz with 1/2 prescaler means ADC running at 8MHz. thats massively overclock and you'll get like 3 meaningful bits at that rate
[04:32:45] <monkeyisl> ahh
[04:32:47] <monkeyisl> alright
[04:33:07] <amee2k> 1/8 is still 1MHz which is a lot so i'd say 8..10 bits at best
[04:33:12] <monkeyisl> adc's up to 2mhz i heard.. i have to set it fcpu /8
[04:33:31] <amee2k> well, yeah. but it is only rated for maximum resolution up to 200kHz ;)
[04:34:36] <amee2k> how did you manage the 1/6 divider anyway??
[04:35:08] <monkeyisl> btw div8 means 2mhz when master clock is 16mhz , isn't it?
[04:35:14] <monkeyisl> *doesn't it
[04:35:24] <amee2k> the fuse?
[04:35:28] <amee2k> chdiv8
[04:35:52] <amee2k> there are lots of places that can divide by 8 in an AVR >_>
[04:37:46] <monkeyisl> LM35 Precision Centigrade Temperature Sensors (Rev. B) !
[04:37:50] <monkeyisl> it's precision!
[06:12:59] <scorpio> hi
[06:13:19] <scorpio> somebody here£¿
[06:14:06] <scorpio> why no peolpe talk
[06:18:23] <izua> y u no avr
[06:18:38] <izua> also, irc isn't really "instant relay chat"
[06:18:43] <izua> it's more like "a bit faster than email"
[06:18:52] <izua> read topic
[06:18:54] <izua> ask your question
[06:18:55] <izua> wait
[06:19:57] <scorpio> sorry
[06:19:58] <amee2k> ask your question, wait 15 seconds, leave and hire a tech consultant
[06:20:36] <amee2k> lol
[07:30:01] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: There?
[07:31:23] <amee2k> CapnKernel: \o/
[07:31:53] <Tom_itx> ?
[07:35:17] <CapnKernel> Re switches, let's PM.
[07:36:09] <amee2k> CapnKernel: i've got some procedural questions regarding parts selection, tell me when you've got a few minutes
[07:36:31] <CapnKernel> amee2k: will do
[07:45:46] <keenerd> Random thing that I found on an AVR data sheet, Port Driver Strength Register.
[07:46:12] <keenerd> It lets you choose the output current limit. I've never seen this on any other AVR.
[07:46:27] <keenerd> *limit per pin.
[07:46:40] <amee2k> interresting
[07:46:41] <amee2k> which part?
[07:46:56] <keenerd> Atmega128raf1.
[07:47:05] <amee2k> sounds expensive >_>
[07:47:28] <keenerd> Yeah. $6 each @ 25.
[07:49:31] <amee2k> keenerd: do you mean 128RFA1 by chance?
[07:50:02] <keenerd> Yes, typoed there.
[07:50:55] <amee2k> too bad it only goes up to 8mA
[07:51:03] <amee2k> sounds extremely handy for driving LEDs
[07:52:19] <keenerd> I can't figure out what it is supposed to be used for.
[07:54:41] <keenerd> Maybe a Scotty impersonation? "I'm givvan her all we got, but she canna go any harda to the port!"
[08:01:04] <hetii> Hello :)
[08:04:15] <amee2k> keenerd: LOL!
[08:08:07] <timemage> keenerd, the datasheet summary mentions it briefly "Crosstalk and radiation from switching digital signals to the crystal pins or the RF pins can degrade the system performance. The programming of minimum drive strength settings for the digital output signal is recommended...."
[08:10:16] <timemage> keenerd, not sure exactly how to interpret that. maybe current limiting surges into capacitive load to keep it from interfering with the internals to the avr?
[08:11:38] <keenerd> EM generation is proprotionate to the current through a wire. Maybe high speed serial can cause some trouble.
[08:11:49] <keenerd> Seems a little extreme though.
[08:12:34] <keenerd> If vias were smaller, you could do twisted pair inside the PCB to reduce noise even further :-)
[08:14:42] <timemage> heh. well, i didn't actually look at what the port is for. but i the part number and the demo board picture and the "RF pins" mention give me some idea.
[08:15:14] <keenerd> It has a built in ZigBee transceiver.
[08:15:52] <keenerd> (Atmel also makes a few stand alone SPI controls zigbee chips.)
[08:15:56] <keenerd> *controled
[08:16:52] <timemage> haven't messed with any zigbee stuff yet. i have it loaded in my head as "2.4ghz home automation". that's about all i (think i) know.
[08:59:00] <rue_house> get a modem and see if you can get data out of your power meter
[09:29:59] <amee2k> keenerd: sounds to me like it is just a less fancy way of saying "programmable slew rate limiting"
[09:38:54] <rue_house> keenerd, why not use burried traces surrounded by ground planes and ground vias as a coax line?
[09:50:19] <amee2k> CYANIDE AND HAPPINESS
[09:57:02] <keenerd> rue_house: I was being facetious.
[11:10:21] <CapnKernel> This place is unnaturally quiet
[11:29:20] <ziph> CapnKernel: Jan should be on in an hour or two. ;)
[11:29:33] <CapnKernel> Thanks for the warning.
[12:06:27] <LmtdAt> oh yeha
[12:16:35] <hetii> Hello :)
[12:16:54] <hetii> Q: did some of you know if there is some fbus protocol library for avr ?
[12:19:13] <CapnKernel> What did google say?
[12:19:17] <Tom_itx> fbus?
[12:19:39] <CapnKernel> From memory it's some sort of home automation thing
[12:20:20] <Tom_itx> wonder what the commercial lighting industry uses
[12:20:34] <hetii> i found:
https://github.com/antoinevg/phbus/blob/master/fbus.pde
[12:20:42] <Tom_itx> that's theBear's area of expertice i think
[12:21:14] <hetii> i thought that be able to send simple AT command to my nokia phone but as i see it use FBUS protocol :(
[12:21:21] <hetii> so need to find workaroung
[12:21:26] <CapnKernel> Oh, *that* F-BUS :-)
[12:21:30] <hetii> s*workaround
[12:22:40] <CapnKernel> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBus
[12:29:50] <hetii> yep i saw it, at this moment i try send frame from python script into my phone till now without success
[12:30:54] <CapnKernel> Are your bytes the same as in the example?
[12:32:59] <hetii> yes, i just saw that when i send twice the same bytes into cell then i got result from cell when i read it
[12:34:39] <hetii> http://pastebin.com/VUM8Jp3a
[12:36:53] <hetii> missing \n at the end :)
[12:39:38] <hetii> btw is it possible to clone sim card into for eg atmega8 ?:) so i will not need to get off my card from my primary phone for my testing :D
[12:46:04] <CapnKernel> Some shops sell SIMs for testing.
[12:47:18] <CapnKernel> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/dummy-sim-cards-for-cell-phone-testing-purposes-10-pack-16159
[12:59:57] <Jan-> I'm guessing people have made probably-quite-basic audio meters with AVRs, right?
[13:04:38] <Jan-> anyway, I was wondering if there was any code out there for it. I've googled, and found some stuff, but if anyone has any ideas, that'd be great too.
[13:04:47] <RikusW> or just using diodes , transistors , resistors and some leds...
[13:05:10] <RikusW> you want like a led bar meter ?
[13:05:11] <keenerd> http://elm-chan.org/works/akilcd/report_e.html
[13:06:33] <Jan-> there are easyish ways to do it with discrete chips
[13:06:55] <Jan-> but by the time you decide you want 20 segments per meter and peak holding and such, you discover it's a bit more complex.
[13:06:56] <keenerd> An op amp and avr is not easy enough?
[13:07:10] <Jan-> keenerd, that does rather ignore the software side
[13:07:28] <keenerd> Source is on that page.
[13:07:47] <Jan-> bear in mind, I'm sufficiently stupid that getting an AVR wired up to a USB serial thing is a big issue
[13:11:11] <Tom_itx> holy crap ziph you sure called that
[13:11:24] <ziph> Tom_itx: :)
[13:14:10] <Jan-> keenerd: that appears to be several orders of magnitude more than we need
[13:18:19] <Jan-> Come to think of it, it's not even that simple on a microcontroller, if you want to control something like 40 LEDs.
[13:19:05] <ureif> 74HC165
[13:19:19] <Jan-> that's going to be an SPI device, isn't it
[13:19:45] <Jan-> Aargh, shift register
[13:19:49] * Jan- is afraid, so afraid
[13:20:17] <Jan-> what would that give me, 8 per chip?
[13:22:05] <ureif> there are other parts with more bits
[13:29:13] <Kevin`> just chain more of those chips together if you want more outputs
[13:29:46] <Kevin`> they are designed so you can control an arbitrarily long string of them with the same 4 pins
[13:30:58] <Tom_itx> 7seg led meter?
[13:31:20] <Tom_itx> bcd chips
[13:34:01] <Kevin`> if you are driving a 7*x segment display from an avr it's probably simpler to just connect the 7 segments to 7 pins, plus one pin for each digit anode
[13:34:11] <Kevin`> or to a shift register again
[13:43:42] <Jan-> they should make AVRs with heaps more pins
[13:43:55] <Jan-> (only not in tiny quad micro package you need compound eyes to see)
[13:44:18] <RikusW> mega64 got 64 pins
[13:44:26] <Jan-> oh, another harebrained scheme has come up
[13:44:43] <Jan-> most video camera viewfinders have a pin that makes the "record" light come on, and some for other lights too.
[13:44:46] <Jan-> But oh no, not the one we have :/
[13:45:08] <Jan-> it has some sort of pulse train going into it, one pulse every 25ms or so, and then further pulses inside the 25ms window to make various lights come on
[13:45:09] <Jan-> ffs
[13:45:14] <Jan-> overcomplication much?
[13:46:29] <Jan-> I guess it... could be... reverse... engineered.
[13:46:31] <Jan-> *sigh*
[13:46:32] <LoRez> cheaper wiring harness
[13:46:44] <keenerd> You can get AVRs in 40 pin DIP. Should be plenty for a 20 led graph.
[13:46:49] <Jan-> y'know what's weird, Panasonic uses exactly the same connector as Sony
[13:46:53] <Jan-> they fit
[13:46:56] <Jan-> they just don't work
[13:47:05] <Jan-> (sony uses the simpler, pin-per-light setup)
[13:48:50] <Jan-> oh, additional misery factor: you can't get those connectors, so the only way to connect to the viewfinder is to cut its cable partway along, and insert a more sensible type.
[13:49:28] <LoRez> Jan-: you're fairly whiney today. you ok?
[13:50:07] <specing> Ha.
[13:50:42] <Kevin`> he's always like that
[13:50:53] <LoRez> Kevin`: she.
[13:51:10] <Jan-> oh I'm not whiny
[13:51:16] <Jan-> I don't actually have to DO any of this stuff :D
[13:51:35] <Jan-> not being competent to do stuff does make it easier to actually avoid doing it.
[13:51:45] <Kevin`> I can't remember he/she for that many people on irc, when you can't even see it. everyone is he ;p
[13:52:00] <Jan-> kevin, is that like all ships being "she"
[13:52:27] <Jan-> (and yes, it's short for Janine, so either my mom and dad really, really didn't like me, or...)
[13:52:28] <Kevin`> that's just sailors being wacko :)
[13:52:57] <LoRez> I have a cousin named Janine.
[13:53:17] <Jan-> poor your cousin
[13:53:20] <Jan-> it's a dumb name
[13:53:21] * Jan- hates it
[13:53:26] <ureif> change it.
[13:53:38] <ureif> why is it dumb ?
[13:53:39] <Jan-> well, my middle name is Catherine, and I tried going by Kate for a while
[13:53:55] <Jan-> unfortunately, all women between the ages of 15 and 40 in the UK right now are called Kate
[13:54:03] <Jan-> so it got a bit confusing as I already had three friends called Kate.
[13:54:31] <Jan-> And my rejection of my given name drove my mom bananas. But then, driving my mom bananas is what keeps me going :D
[13:55:05] <Jan-> It's dumb because it's Americanised and stupid and the only famous Janine is the secretary from Ghostbusters.
[13:56:08] <Kevin`> you could be one of TWO famous Janine's then
[13:56:17] <Jan-> only my mom calls me Janine.
[13:56:26] <Jan-> Well, actually she calls me Janine Honey, but only when she's trying to be acerbic.
[13:57:41] <Jan-> Anyway you have dragged me offtopic again!
[13:57:55] <Jan-> I was trying to be ontopic so Tom_itx wouldn't have one of his spasms!
[13:59:26] <Jan-> is it considered good practise to connect the output pins of a microcontroller directly to a connector on the outside of the device, or should it go through some sort of buffering
[13:59:45] <Kevin`> depends on the device environment
[13:59:54] <Jan-> portable equipment
[13:59:56] <Jan-> pocket sized
[14:00:30] <ureif> dont they all have ESD protection now ?
[14:00:36] <Jan-> I uhoh
[14:00:45] <Kevin`> the avr's pins are fairly robust from things like people touching them. connecting power to it or anything lightning or an automotive connection, not so much
[14:01:12] <Casper> IC are robust yes, but...
[14:01:22] <Casper> esd can be quite powerfull, too much for those simple one
[14:04:50] <Kevin`> anyone actually have an esd gun, or at least one of those piezo zappy things? it would be interesting to see what it actually does to an esd-protected chip in circuit
[14:05:11] <Jan-> wouldn't you risk destroying it
[14:05:26] <Kevin`> sure, but the chips are cheap
[14:05:32] <Jan-> Bit wanton :/
[14:07:59] <Kevin`> it's quite a bit better to have one dip chip from your drawer maybe fail than whatever finished design you are making fail
[14:08:40] <Jan-> I don't think that'll apply to me, I'm never likely to get to a finished design
[14:08:52] <Kevin`> lol
[14:12:54] <Jan-> That's right laugh it up :(
[14:13:54] <specing> Ha
[14:18:40] <keenerd> Kevin`: Piezo zappy things are a dollar a dozen, just find any push button lighter.
[14:18:56] <Kevin`> indeed, but I don't have any in my desk right now :)
[14:19:41] <keenerd> Um. Why did you ask if *we* had any then?
[14:19:53] <keenerd> We are not closer :-)
[14:20:15] <Kevin`> you might be more willing to randomly fry chips for !SCIENCE! too
[14:20:45] <keenerd> Nuts, you just had to phrase it like a DF-er too.
[14:21:10] <Kevin`> well, there's a reason for that of course
[14:21:42] <keenerd> Because you somehow knew that it gets me every time? :-(
[14:22:34] <Kevin`> no, because i've read too much of the DF forums
[14:22:54] <Landon> I'm afraid to ask, DF?
[14:23:20] <Landon> unless it has to do with short people and their abodes....
[14:23:29] <Kevin`> dwarf fortress
[14:23:42] <Landon> doh
[14:27:14] <Jan-> Whoo! Phil just heard he got a big contract!
[14:27:18] * Jan- dances with Kevin`
[14:30:47] <Steffanx> big contract as in ?? $1e6?
[14:30:49] <Steffanx> :P
[14:31:06] <Steffanx> ARgh.. now i feed our Mrs. Offtopic :P
[14:31:16] * Jan- scowls
[14:31:30] * Jan- applies superglue to Steffanx's toilet seat, and slips some turbo-lax into his coffee
[14:32:24] <specing> Jan-: How can you do that if you are blind?
[14:32:54] <Jan-> that's the power of the internet
[14:32:57] <Kevin`> do what, drink coffee?
[14:33:07] <Jan-> oh, I drink coffee IRL too :)
[14:33:40] <specing> the superglueing part
[14:34:31] <Jan-> Well funnily enough, I don't do that IRL :)
[14:34:58] <RikusW> Jan-: stop building missiles :-P
[14:35:49] <Steffanx> Lucky phil, Jan-
[14:36:09] <Jan-> well, he spent a day and a half putting the pitch together.
[14:36:11] <Jan-> So we're pleased.
[14:36:19] <Jan-> Anyway, ontopic stuff is actually relevant to the jobv :D
[14:39:52] <Jan-> RikusW: drat, found out
[14:41:54] <RikusW> ;)
[14:42:24] <Jan-> actually this upcoming job has made things a bit urgent
[14:42:32] <Jan-> and probably means we can't actually include any UC stuff as we only have a few weeks
[14:49:15] <dirty_d> till what
[14:55:48] <Kevin`> 10mhz doesn't easily divide down to counting numbers with powers of two, does it :(
[14:56:10] <Jan-> Not in any reality run by a sane god, no
[14:56:17] <specing> LOL
[14:56:38] <Jan-> On the other hand, certain godbotherers tried to have pi redefined as 3.
[14:56:44] <Jan-> So go the fuck ahead, don't mind me :/
[14:57:03] <asteve> 10
[14:57:26] <Kevin`> I think i'll use a 16bit timer and do /8/1250 for 1khz
[14:57:33] <Kevin`> :(
[14:57:36] <asteve> 10 is a power of 2… 2^2+2^1
[14:57:38] <Jan-> why do you need to count in specific periods of time?
[14:57:49] <Kevin`> Jan-: for a clock
[14:57:51] <asteve> whoops, 2^3
[15:07:56] <Jan-> Oh, righto
[15:07:59] <Jan-> Tricky though
[15:08:05] <Jan-> don't AVR crystals drift a lot
[15:08:09] <Jan-> (or any crystal)
[15:08:54] <dirty_d> yea i think so
[15:09:14] <dirty_d> the rc osc does
[15:09:20] <dirty_d> not sure about crystal
[15:09:55] <dirty_d> im using dfll auto calibration with my xmega to get it pretty spot on
[15:11:09] <Kevin`> Jan-: yeah, but I have a rubidium oscillator connected as the clock input
[15:11:53] <dirty_d> what are you making?
[15:12:32] <Kevin`> just a clock. although it would be nice to have it act as an ntp server or similar
[15:13:22] <dirty_d> cool
[15:17:54] <Jan-> where on earth do you get a rubidium oscillator in a chip :D
[15:18:39] <Kevin`> actually I think they HAVE made chip-scale versions, but the one i'm using isn't a single chip
[15:19:15] <mrfrenzy_> someday I shall make a nixie clock that gets it time source from NTP over WLAN
[15:21:00] <Jan-> Pipe dream: I'd like to make an SMPTE timecode device
[15:21:04] <Jan-> which would need accurate clocking
[15:21:11] <Jan-> but I guess the least of my troubles with that is the clock :/
[15:27:34] <Kevin`> anyone want to find a really simple problem in my code so far? it doesn't make sense
[15:28:47] <Jan-> I'd try. But I doubt it'd work.
[15:29:19] <Kevin`> http://pastebin.com/KwuD7t80
[15:29:24] <Kevin`> see 'this code does not run'
[15:30:06] <Jan-> way over my head
[15:30:08] <Jan-> but then I'm short
[15:31:59] <dirty_d> Kevin`, why would it?
[15:32:26] <Kevin`> dirty_d: apparently the compiler thinks it shouldn't too, so it must be something stupid. why wouldn't it?
[15:32:29] <dirty_d> oh i see youre incrementing it
[15:32:54] <dirty_d> Kevin`, you need to make it volatile
[15:33:00] <dirty_d> if youre modifying it in an interrupt
[15:33:27] <Kevin`> yay, it works
[15:33:28] <dirty_d> the compile is optimizing that out
[15:33:32] <Kevin`> thanks dirty_d
[15:33:34] <dirty_d> np
[15:35:59] <Kevin`> this circuit is horribly, horribly noisy. doesn't matter for anything so far, but I should really fix that
[15:36:12] <dirty_d> the clock?
[15:36:36] <Kevin`> the avr stuff, all the io has high frequency crap on it
[15:36:47] <Kevin`> and the power rails
[15:37:00] <dirty_d> do you have caps across all gnd-vcc/avcc
[15:37:09] <dirty_d> and a big on one the regulator
[15:37:22] <Kevin`> nope. also it's being powered by aligator clips connected to the oscillator
[15:37:25] <Kevin`> and it's on a breadboard :D
[15:37:29] <dirty_d> lol
[15:37:32] <Kevin`> regulator has a cap
[15:37:41] <Jan-> the whole "shift register" thing for driving LEDs seems like it'd need a lot of software
[15:37:59] <dirty_d> you need to have your clock lines short as you can
[15:38:03] <Tom_itx> gawd. who took the lid off that jar?
[15:38:04] <Kevin`> regulator output is also clean. just checked it to be sure
[15:38:32] <Jan-> Kevin: it's high speed digital stuff, of course it's covered in high frequency interference
[15:38:36] <Jan-> that's almost inevitable isn't it?
[15:38:42] <Kevin`> yeah I suppose
[15:38:56] <dirty_d> yea but the magnitude shouldnt be out of control
[15:38:57] <dirty_d> is it?
[15:39:54] <Kevin`> the chip is working fine for now. I might need to fix it once I connect the lcd though
[15:40:03] <dirty_d> i dunno
[15:40:59] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, do you get an email when your dorkbox pcbs ship to you?
[15:41:10] <Tom_itx> generally i think
[15:41:25] <Tom_itx> it's been a while since i ordered from laen
[15:43:19] <dirty_d> hrrmm
[15:43:39] <Tom_itx> did you order some?
[15:44:42] <dirty_d> yea
[15:44:45] <dirty_d> on the 19th
[15:45:03] <dirty_d> he probably hasnt even got them yet
[15:45:10] <dirty_d> they need to be made and also shipped
[15:45:19] <dirty_d> then shipped again
[15:47:16] <Tom_itx> you can always bug him in #dorkbotpdx
[15:54:07] <Jan-> dammit
[15:54:18] <Jan-> the more you look into things, the more the microcontroller becomes the answer to all questions
[15:54:27] <mrfrenzy_> it is
[15:54:34] <Jan-> How do I sort out the remote-start features for both this camera and this audio recorder? Microcontroller.
[15:54:46] <Jan-> How do I create a quick cheap audio level meter with 20 LEDs and a peak hold feature? Microcontroller.
[15:54:56] * Jan- kicks a can disconsolately
[15:55:04] <mrfrenzy_> I was constructing this nice pwm fancontroller with a quad rail-rail opamp. Then I realized, why am I doing this when an aTTINY can do it much cheaper and simpler?
[15:55:15] <Jan-> How do I make the fricken lights come on in the viewfinder? MICROCONTROLLER.
[15:55:22] * Jan- stabs the person who invented the microcontroller
[15:56:57] <mrfrenzy_> I'm contemplating taking this class
https://6002x.mitx.mit.edu/
[15:57:09] <mrfrenzy_> would be very fun to learn a little more analogue stuff
[15:57:11] <dirty_d> i saw that
[15:57:20] <dirty_d> its free huh
[15:57:25] <dirty_d> 10 hours a week
[15:57:37] <mrfrenzy_> yep
[15:58:11] <mrfrenzy_> first half would probably just be repetition ofcourse, but certainly there will be stuff I don't know
[15:59:34] <OndraSter> I already applied -.-
[15:59:40] <specing> How do I make Jan- stop whining? MICROCONTROLLER :D
[16:00:02] <keenerd> Microcontroller? I hardly know her.
[16:01:24] <keenerd> (Sorry, that was terrible. But the planets practically aligned and it even almost makes sense.)
[16:02:38] <Jan-> it's OK for you, specing
[16:02:40] <Jan-> you're an expert :(
[16:06:10] <keenerd> There are always PLCs if you don't want micros.
[16:08:12] <OndraSter> oh god PLCs
[16:08:18] <mrfrenzy_> simatic ftw
[16:08:21] <OndraSter> we had awful teacher at school that was supposed to teach us PLCs
[16:08:36] <dirty_d> jackpot
[16:08:36] <dirty_d> http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-2319/APC-Electric-Thin-15x4/Detail
[16:08:40] <Kevin`> a plc is just a microcontroller with high voltage io and a funky language interpreter
[16:08:43] <OndraSter> and actually the program that we were supposed to use was in DOS and it tend to crash so often...
[16:08:48] <dirty_d> found that and the pusher props to match
[16:08:48] <dirty_d> finally
[16:08:56] <OndraSter> and funky timings... at least the ones we had
[16:09:02] <dirty_d> i wanted 18" but 15 will do
[16:09:05] <OndraSter> some 64 stages or w/e, each has some strict timing requirements
[16:09:30] <dirty_d> time to gtfo
[16:09:31] <dirty_d> bbl
[16:09:33] <OndraSter> bb
[16:33:39] <pingec> how does auto baud rate work?
[16:33:54] <pingec> how does my gsm modem detect it?
[16:34:43] <mrfrenzy_> maybe it measures the frequency of the signal? how long it takes to receive X bits
[16:38:13] <hetii> i suppose it send AT or ATZ on each baud rate and till got OK then build a list with supported baudrates
[16:38:30] <hetii> pingec, :)
[16:38:55] <mrfrenzy_> now when you say it, I think the windows auto detect thingy does the same
[16:39:11] <mrfrenzy_> you can see it trying lots of AT commands
[16:39:13] <Tom_itx> it plays ping pong until it wins
[16:39:17] <mrfrenzy_> but was a long time since I used modems ;)
[16:39:24] <pingec> well
[16:39:38] <pingec> I opened a connection in putty
[16:40:00] <pingec> at 9600 baud
[16:40:04] <pingec> with modem
[16:40:12] <pingec> and communication works
[16:40:22] <pingec> then I do the same with my atmega
[16:40:24] <pingec> and works
[16:40:31] <pingec> but then i connect atmega to the modem
[16:40:38] <hetii> i configure some time ago hylafax software for fax comminication and his script for autodetection modem baudrate do it as i describe :>
[16:40:40] <OndraSter> DTR signals and such?
[16:40:42] <pingec> and modem replies garbage
[16:40:43] <Tom_itx> did you send a cr?
[16:41:24] <pingec> my atmega spams \CR\LFAT\CR\LF
[16:41:49] <hetii> for output?:)
[16:41:56] <pingec> yes
[16:42:03] <pingec> and mdoem replies with dots
[16:42:05] <pingec> lol
[16:42:27] <OndraSter> I wish I had some dialup line I could play with.. I have bunch of serial/parallel modems here :P
[16:42:28] <OndraSter> 56Kbit
[16:42:38] <OndraSter> but using dialup = paying a LOT of money
[16:42:45] <hetii> but why you have on the beginig the Cr
[16:42:48] <hetii> and lf ?:)
[16:42:58] <mrfrenzy_> OndraSter: just set up an asterisk - unlimited free lines
[16:43:00] <pingec> thats just in case
[16:43:07] <OndraSter> asterisk?
[16:43:25] <pingec> I dont think it matters at all
[16:43:35] <mrfrenzy_> software based PBX
[16:43:39] <specing> OndraSter: emulate it
[16:43:42] <hetii> asterisk.org + freepbx and whe world is your :)
[16:43:47] <OndraSter> ah
[16:43:47] <OndraSter> ok thanks :D
[16:43:50] <hetii> *the
[16:43:55] <mrfrenzy_> yep, I run freepbx aswell
[16:44:18] <mrfrenzy_> it's best to start with the vmware appliance, cause manual installation is quite tedious ;)(
[16:44:19] <hetii> also you can check the elastix.org :)
[16:44:48] <OndraSter> I have better stuff to play with than AT stuff... ethernet :P
[16:44:53] <OndraSter> ENC28J60
[16:44:58] <OndraSter> gotta get one
[16:45:35] <hetii> how much you pay for it ?
[16:46:09] <OndraSter> $6.50?
[16:46:12] <OndraSter> or so
[16:46:19] <OndraSter> 'tis frikkin cheap
[16:47:02] <mrfrenzy_> what annoys me is you can get a complete ethernet card with magjack and pci interface for $5
[16:48:02] <OndraSter> you can get ENC28J60 including magnetics and RJ45 and oscillator on made board for $6.5
[16:48:04] <OndraSter> close enough
[16:48:13] <OndraSter> magjack*
[16:48:27] <hetii> yep on my crazy country is not so cheap :(
[16:48:28] <specing> the former is 1Gb/s, the later 10Mb/s
[16:48:44] <OndraSter> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENC28J60-28J60-Network-Module-51-AVR-LPC-STM32-ARM-MCU-Learning-Tools-/150767663151?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item231a73f82f
[16:48:50] <OndraSter> free shipping
[16:49:02] <OndraSter> specing, try interfacing PCI card to mega :P
[16:49:08] <OndraSter> ISA cards - sure
[16:49:10] <OndraSter> it is 8bit
[16:49:52] <specing> doable with a 33 Mhz ARM :D
[16:50:02] <hetii> hmm
[16:50:16] <hetii> its a time to register account on ebay :D
[16:50:31] * Casper wonders...
[16:50:32] <OndraSter> specing, really? :P
[16:50:40] <OndraSter> I'd say you need at least double the speed
[16:50:50] <mrfrenzy_> I just read forum posts about that topic ;)
[16:51:12] <Casper> if you register on ebay, and let's say that ebay is based in california... does it mean that if you do something else (like hack the ps3) that you can be sued in california?!?
[16:51:20] <mrfrenzy_> I've been part of a project to create a product with an embedded computer on a CPCI bus. All our 'cards' had to have a PCI interface. Long story short: I would not wish this task on anyone! It goes way way way beyond getting the clock timed correctly. There are so many control signals on the PCI bus it will make your head spin. Don't get me going about timing.....
[16:51:53] <Casper> (geohot vs sony... geohot got a .com from a california based... and they succeded to sue him on that ground)
[16:51:54] <mrfrenzy_> californians can't sue you for something you did in another country even if it's illegal in california
[16:53:05] <Casper> mrfrenzy_: sony couln't sue him until they fround out about his .com
[16:53:13] <Casper> the .com was totally unrelated
[16:53:17] <specing> OndraSter: atmel SAM3S do 66Mhz
[16:54:23] <Casper> mrfrenzy_: what about pcix? 64 bits 133MHZ ! :D
[16:55:03] <mrfrenzy_> go for it :D
[16:55:09] <mrfrenzy_> but I have to say, that ebay module was nice
[16:55:15] <mrfrenzy_> the chinese have finally massproduced it
[16:55:24] <mrfrenzy_> getting ethernet for your micro is no longer a problem
[16:56:27] <OndraSter> wifi still is
[16:56:29] <OndraSter> :/
[16:56:42] <OndraSter> that's why I want to provide NRF24L01+ signal around my house
[16:56:49] <Kevin`> so do it.
[16:56:52] <OndraSter> and have one main unit that has ethernet and connects to network
[16:56:58] <OndraSter> Kevin`, once I finish school
[16:58:10] <Kevin`> I recently built my own device like that, although for a different radio module and different core purpose. it would work even better with the nrf* stuff because of the high datarate
[17:00:51] <OndraSter> :)
[17:06:23] <pingec> PC(9600) <-> gsm modem(auto baud) works, PC(9600) <-> atmega(9600) works ok so next step I connect atmega(9600) <-> gsm modem(auto baud) and use 2 rs232 adapers (rx pins) to sniff both lines with my pc and I see atmega spamming AT\r\n every second and the gsm modem spitting back garbage
[17:06:45] <pingec> Any ideas on what is going on?
[17:09:20] <Casper> pingec: what kind of garbage?
[17:09:49] <pingec> Ä˙˙˙˙˙Ä˙˙˙˙˙ÄË™Ë™Ă§Ë™ĂŸË™Ë™Ë™Ë™Ë™ÄË™Å£Ë™Ë™Ë™Ă·Ë™Ë™Å£Ë™Ë™Ë™Ë™Ë™Ë™Ä˙˙˙˙÷˙ÄË™Ë™Ë™ĂŸË™Ë™Ë™Ă·Ë™
[17:10:06] <pingec> 1 or 2 chars after every AT
[17:10:31] <pingec> Im clueless
[17:10:36] <Kevin`> pingec: are you using rs232 or cmos signalling levels/inversion?
[17:10:38] <pingec> maybe I wired it wrong :/
[17:11:02] <pingec> huh?
[17:11:14] <pingec> its modem <-> max232 <-> atmega
[17:11:27] <Kevin`> why the max232? which side is using rs232?
[17:11:40] <pingec> the modem
[17:12:12] <Kevin`> so you have the computer's rx lines both connected to the modem side?
[17:12:34] <pingec> yes
[17:13:00] <Kevin`> I wouldn't expect a modem to use rs232 if it was a module, btw. if it was some box with a db9 port, sure
[17:13:09] <pingec> its a box
[17:13:12] <pingec> with db9
[17:13:26] <hetii> time to sleep :) good luck :>
[17:13:35] <pingec> night
[17:13:54] <Kevin`> pingec: did you try without any of the control signals present for pc-modem?
[17:14:21] <pingec> no i did not
[17:14:27] <pingec> I will try it now
[17:22:59] <pingec> Kevin` yeah you're right
[17:23:11] <pingec> connecting rxtx only to pc does not work
[17:26:27] <pingec> So what does that mean, that I need the control signals? Is that hard to do, could I maybe turn them off?
[17:54:23] <Jan-> hmm
[17:54:28] <Jan-> people have made audio meters with arduinos
[17:54:32] <Jan-> I'm surprised by that
[17:55:49] <Kevin`> pingec: you might just be able to put pullup/pulldowns on them
[17:56:40] <Kevin`> the arduino is still using native code. if you use the libraries just right, it can be plenty fast
[17:57:43] <Jan-> The thing is... in order to see high frequencies, you'd need to sample at some super high frequency
[17:57:52] <Jan-> I'm not sure that any avr could do that if you wanted proper accuracy, let alone arduino
[17:58:05] <Kevin`> audio isn't high frequency
[17:58:19] <Jan-> You'd need to sample at 48khz
[17:58:21] <Jan-> like a CD
[17:58:47] <Kevin`> well it must be possible, they do it
[17:58:48] <Jan-> I've been told that's barely possible
[17:58:58] <Jan-> Plus you need good resolution as you need to do log-lin conversion
[17:59:03] <Kevin`> i've seen some designs that used an analog section though
[17:59:09] <Jan-> we-elll, that depends how good their results are
[17:59:45] <Kevin`> Jan-: if you wanted to really do it, xmega is rated to sample at 1msps, no need to run it outside of the specs
[18:00:12] <pingec> Kevin` how would that work? I would still have to poll for when the modem is ready to receive or not?
[18:01:32] <Kevin`> pingec: um, what? the hardware flow control stuff is specifically designed to address that situation. if you actually NEED it, use it.
[18:03:48] <pingec> I'd gladly avoid using it if possible
[18:04:02] <pingec> I think I need to read more about it
[18:04:12] <pingec> Judging by your reply :P
[18:05:38] <Jan-> xmega seems to be a whole other ball game
[18:08:53] <Kevin`> Jan-: it's basically the same as the other 8-bit avrs, but faster and with updated peripherals
[18:09:11] <Jan-> more power, presumably
[18:10:12] <keenerd> Miniscule compared to that LED bar graph.
[18:10:47] <Tom_itx> every new iteration of a chip becomes lower power
[18:10:52] <Jan-> I guess that might be 200ma
[18:11:17] <Kevin`> a lot less than 200ma, unless you mean the LED part
[18:11:28] <Jan-> well, say 10ma per led
[18:11:30] <Jan-> 20 in the graph
[18:11:36] <Jan-> worst case they're all on at once
[18:12:15] <keenerd> Jan-: So the circuit that I gave you, it used a '168. You said it was 10x more than you needed. I doubt you'll need an xmega :-)
[18:12:29] <Jan-> I'm not sure how that was done
[18:12:32] <Jan-> it hardly seems possible on paper
[18:12:39] <Jan-> in fact with all that fft stuff it seems definitely not possible
[18:13:20] <keenerd> http://elm-chan.org/works/akilcd/report_e.html (for those who weren't here before)
[18:13:46] <keenerd> Why do you think it is not possible?
[18:14:10] <Jan-> the fastest atmega168 goes at 20mhz
[18:14:51] <keenerd> Heh, he actually used an atmega8.
[18:14:54] <Jan-> it can't sample analog signals at enough bandwidth for audio, at least decent quality audio
[18:15:23] <Jan-> so it isn't fast enough to do the mathematics for even a very basic fft and it can't sample at audio frequencies.
[18:15:24] <Jan-> so how the hell.
[18:15:28] <keenerd> He says right on the page how he cheats.
[18:15:39] <Jan-> well he doesn't really cheat
[18:15:44] <keenerd> Samples at 9.6kHz.
[18:15:52] <Jan-> Well that's completely useless
[18:15:53] <Jan-> it's a toy
[18:16:03] <Kevin`> Jan-: um, all of those devices are toys
[18:16:08] <Jan-> it wouldn't catch high frequency peaks
[18:16:20] <Jan-> or at least might not
[18:16:45] <keenerd> You are making something with a 20 LED bar graph. That does not sound like a serious spectrum analyzer either ;-)
[18:17:05] <Jan-> No, but it needs to see proper audio frequency bandwidth
[18:17:50] <Jan-> that's... annoying.
[18:18:21] <keenerd> http://elm-chan.org/works/rsm/report_e.html has a 64kHz sample rate, but needs modified to use audio instead of RF.
[18:19:05] <Jan-> surely if it has a 64khz sample rate it can't see RF
[18:19:21] <keenerd> Also using a mega8.
[18:19:24] <Kevin`> Jan-: it's not displaying the entire rf spectrum, just a section of it
[18:19:24] <keenerd> Sure it can.
[18:19:30] <Kevin`> Jan-: like any radio would
[18:21:09] <Jan-> what's annoying is that we have the audio digitised
[18:21:17] <Jan-> but it's embedded in hdmi, so pretty much impossible to access.
[18:21:38] <dirty_d> why
[18:22:02] <Jan-> HDMI embeds the audio in a big fast serial stream with the video image
[18:22:06] <dirty_d> i was thinking of making a class d amplifier
[18:22:23] <Kevin`> also hdmi is encrypted for some uses, specifically so you can't access the data
[18:22:26] <dirty_d> Jan-, this is the camera thing?
[18:22:53] <keenerd> $45 gets an hdmi-audio converter.
[18:24:10] <dirty_d> im eating raw onion, thats wierd
[18:24:24] <Jan-> we'll already have an hdmi to composite plus audio converter
[18:24:54] <keenerd> Excellent!
[18:25:01] <keenerd> No need to buy another :-)
[18:25:09] <Jan-> it'd make more sense to take it direct digital
[18:25:23] <Jan-> but that's a bit tricky
[18:25:35] <Kevin`> spdif is slightly too fast to process without an interface chip
[18:25:45] <Jan-> ...and a lot of knowledge I don't have
[18:26:15] <keenerd> There is about a dozen different audio codecs in hdmi too.
[18:26:43] <keenerd> Try cracking open the hdmi converter, maybe the DAC uses spi.
[18:26:46] <Jan-> I suspect in our situation we could assume the simple one
[18:27:06] <Jan-> it's a live feed from a camera so it's not going to be billion point surround
[18:28:05] <dirty_d> Jan-, what kinda devious device are you plotting?
[18:28:31] <Jan-> It's a box of tricks designed to provide a whole list of services to a camera rig
[18:28:57] <Jan-> the camera on which it's based doesn't have a lot of these services, which are the sort of things you'd find on a broadcast camera used in TV production.
[18:29:52] <dirty_d> Jan-, whats it gonna be used for
[18:29:54] <Jan-> one of the things we might want is audio metering
[18:30:12] <Jan-> so I'm thinking about how to do a basic audio meter
[18:30:29] <Jan-> it's just idle curiosity really, I don't have the ability to actually do this.
[18:30:40] <dirty_d> like amplitude meter?
[18:30:49] <Jan-> yup
[18:30:57] <dirty_d> you can do that easily
[18:31:19] <Jan-> no, *some people* can do that easily
[18:31:26] <keenerd> Wait, did you just want a clipping meter, not a spectrum analyzer?
[18:31:45] <Jan-> just a meter
[18:31:56] <keenerd> /facepalm. I quit.
[18:32:02] <dirty_d> Jan-, YOU CAN DO IT!
[18:32:05] <Jan-> I did make this clear.
[18:32:39] <Kevin`> how do you measure clipping when the signal is already digital, high frequency spikes? watch the waveform itself?
[18:32:53] <Jan-> well, you have to calibrate it
[18:33:04] <Jan-> before it's a-d'd
[18:36:09] <Jan-> see, now I'm confused, because keenerd has just run off
[18:36:22] <Jan-> I have no idea what he means
[18:36:33] <Jan-> is what I'm asking for ridiculous? hard? easy?
[18:37:29] <dirty_d> the metering is easy
[18:37:40] <dirty_d> transforming your hdmi crap into meaningful form may be hard
[18:37:43] <dirty_d> i have 0 idea
[18:37:47] <Jan-> oh sure forget that
[18:37:49] <Jan-> that's super high end stuff
[18:38:12] <dirty_d> Jan-, play with your pc sound card first
[18:38:18] <dirty_d> get a feel for digital audio
[18:38:28] <dirty_d> you have linux, then its easy
[18:38:38] <Jan-> I've done a bunch of coding around audio on computers
[18:39:07] <dirty_d> then you already know how to do it i guess
[18:39:27] <Jan-> I know how to do it in logic
[18:39:42] <Jan-> the whole AVR thing is a totally closed book
[18:39:54] <dirty_d> naaah
[18:40:02] <dirty_d> the avr is 1000X simpler than your computer
[18:40:14] <dirty_d> its just different
[18:40:22] <Kevin`> heh, it's the .net stuff that's a totally closed book. there's like 10 layers between you and the hardware
[18:40:28] <Jan-> who cares, it works
[18:40:58] <dirty_d> yucky
[18:41:13] <Kevin`> the avr stuff is easier in that respect is what i'm saying. there no need to learn or find any library or fiddle with a badly documented interface
[18:41:17] <Kevin`> because there is none :)
[18:41:24] <dirty_d> exactly
[18:41:24] <Jan-> well that's the thing about .net, the documentation is awesome
[18:41:31] <Jan-> I mean just brilliant
[18:41:37] <dirty_d> Jan-, the avr manual is pretty damn good too
[18:42:21] <Kevin`> the avr datasheets are actually pretty opaque sometimes. but it's only ~500 pages and it describes EVERYTHING, so it's not so bad
[18:42:47] <dirty_d> it doesnt seem like 500 pages
[18:43:02] <dirty_d> if it were a paper book it would be pretty damn intimidating
[18:43:04] <awozniak> try printing it sometime. =)
[18:43:09] <dirty_d> no, lol
[18:43:10] <Jan-> It's not just the AVR, it's all the stuff you could plug it into
[18:43:11] <Kevin`> well yeah, you just use the table of contents on the side to pick the right page you want
[18:43:28] <dirty_d> yea
[18:43:36] <dirty_d> it makes it seems like nothing
[18:43:45] <dirty_d> you jsutread what you need to know
[18:44:59] <Jan-> I'm still waiting to get Phil to patch up this serial thing
[18:45:21] <Jan-> so I can actually have some sort of feedback
[18:46:06] <dirty_d> im gonna buy some damn propellers
[18:46:11] <Jan-> I'm not sure how much I'll ever be able to do, but whaddayagonnado.
[18:52:22] <Jan-> Kevin`: tables of contents aren't my strong point
[18:52:48] <Jan-> search function for the epic win, etc
[18:53:41] <dirty_d> just for four 15"x4" propellers
[18:53:45] <dirty_d> got
[18:53:53] <Jan-> propellers?
[18:53:55] <Jan-> what sort?
[18:54:18] <dirty_d> apc ones for rc airplane
[18:54:22] <dirty_d> but for my quadcopter
[18:54:32] <dirty_d> its slowly falling into place
[18:54:47] <Jan-> oh, okay
[18:54:49] <dirty_d> all the software is done and schematic tested
[18:54:54] <dirty_d> on a breadboard
[18:55:02] <dirty_d> im still waiting on the pcbs
[18:55:16] <dirty_d> ordered the aluminum to build the frame
[18:55:33] <dirty_d> just need motor/esc/batteries now
[18:56:24] <dirty_d> its less painful to buy everything sparingly
[18:56:36] <dirty_d> the bill doesnt smack you in the face
[18:56:45] <Jan-> hehe
[18:57:09] <dirty_d> im gonna try to sell it though for 2x the cost, so i can build a V2.0 for free
[18:57:20] <Jan-> assuming you can make it work
[18:57:24] <Jan-> it's not like it's a trivial project
[18:57:43] <dirty_d> im pretty sure its ready to fly ones i plug it all together
[18:57:56] <Jan-> lots of code though
[18:58:03] <dirty_d> the PID and reciever decoding and crap is working perfectly
[18:58:08] <dirty_d> yea codes all done
[18:58:22] <Jan-> it's got to need tweaking
[18:58:26] <dirty_d> definitely
[18:58:49] <Jan-> why is it that everyone in this channel thinks everything is simple
[18:58:50] <dirty_d> its way more precise than anything out thre now i think
[18:58:58] <dirty_d> im using an xmega
[18:59:07] <dirty_d> so i can afford 16 bit precision on everything
[18:59:24] <dirty_d> even 64 bit on some things
[18:59:47] <dirty_d> but i mean 16 bit on pwm, pulse width measurement, etc
[19:00:16] <dirty_d> the stability code ueses a few 64 bit calculations to maintain precision
[19:00:18] <Jan-> I'd worry less about that
[19:00:27] <Jan-> than making it basically work
[19:00:50] <dirty_d> im using rubber insulating bushings throughout the frame to minimize vibration scrwing up the gyro/accelerometer
[19:01:13] <Jan-> Chances of dirty_d's project ever working: Not Much.
[19:01:40] <Jan-> have you ever done anything like this before
[19:02:41] <dirty_d> yea
[19:02:46] <Jan-> Hrmmm :)
[19:02:48] <dirty_d> but not a flying machine
[19:02:49] <dirty_d> lol
[19:03:01] <dirty_d> my last big project was an electric bike
[19:03:27] <dirty_d> 45mph
[19:03:34] <dirty_d> i blew the motor though
[19:03:43] <Jan-> That's quite a lot simpler
[19:04:14] <dirty_d> it was
[19:04:41] <dirty_d> lol, made a beer vending machien too
[19:05:59] <Jan-> Hey, I made a light flash
[19:06:05] * Jan- is deeply pathetic
[19:06:46] <dirty_d> i do 1000X more software projects
[19:06:49] <dirty_d> becuse its free
[19:06:59] <Jan-> Oh, I write heaps of sofwtare
[19:07:08] <dirty_d> i tend to rack up big bills on my physical projects
[19:07:09] <Jan-> that's easy
[19:07:24] <Jan-> all this hardware stuff is meh
[19:07:29] <dirty_d> my last idea im glad i didnt actually follow through on
[19:07:37] <dirty_d> i was gonna make a coilgun
[19:07:59] <dirty_d> id need like multiple $50 IGBT modules
[19:08:10] <dirty_d> that are used and probably fucked
[19:08:18] <dirty_d> from ebay
[19:08:25] <vectory> do a tesla coil instead
[19:08:35] <vectory> but the c'n'c version :D
[19:08:40] <dirty_d> that just doesnt seem that fun, lol
[19:08:46] <vectory> know, command and conquer red alert
[19:08:50] <Jan-> I'm a bit aware that I'm probably the only girl here and I'm the least competent person.
[19:08:54] * Jan- is letting the side down
[19:09:07] <dirty_d> huuuh
[19:09:56] <dirty_d> i gotta make dinner
[19:10:34] <dirty_d> im gonna try to do something magical with shrimp, eggs, garlic, and paramesean cheese
[19:11:37] * Jan- dribbles
[19:20:10] <vectory> you ll need creame to bind it
[19:20:36] * Jan- dribbles more
[19:33:56] <CapnKernel> So Jan-, a personal question for you.
[19:34:06] <CapnKernel> When you're with Phil, do you moan?
[19:34:45] <CapnKernel> Because I'm like, wondering why you moan so much with us!
[19:35:32] <Jan-> Well, since you were so polite to me last night, go spin on it.
[19:40:16] <CapnKernel> Got her.
[19:41:03] <Jan-> in what way have you got me
[19:41:07] * Jan- doesn't feel very got
[19:43:38] <Jan-> okay, tom, is that a threat
[19:44:19] <Tom_itx> ?
[19:44:39] <Tom_itx> do you feel threatened?
[19:45:22] <Jan-> a little
[19:45:57] <Tom_itx> fix it then i won't have to to whomever may feel that way
[19:46:14] <Jan-> I'm not in the mood, do whatever you want
[19:46:15] <Jan-> I can't stop you
[19:46:54] <Tom_itx> are you used to such a thing happening?
[19:47:16] <Kevin`> don't feed the.. ops..?
[19:47:33] <Jan-> fine, you win
[19:47:35] <Tom_itx> we may starve if you don't
[19:47:40] <Kevin`> lol
[19:47:43] <Tom_itx> gawd
[19:47:45] <CapnKernel> LOL
[19:47:46] <Tom_itx> that was too easy
[19:47:57] <CapnKernel> That was beautiful!
[19:48:23] <Tom_itx> hell, maybe i was just gonna change the topic
[19:48:24] <Tom_itx> :)
[19:48:28] <Roklobsta> Is Jan drunk when she comes on here?
[19:48:31] <CapnKernel> That's her job :-)
[19:48:32] <Roklobsta> I am 1/2 the time.
[19:48:43] <CapnKernel> I think she has ASB
[19:48:46] <Tom_itx> mkay, we should just let it go
[19:48:49] <Tom_itx> and get back to avrs
[19:48:56] <CapnKernel> Most of what she says can be described as "Attention Seeking Behaviour"
[19:49:06] <Roklobsta> whoever designed the arduino ide was drunk
[19:49:20] <Kevin`> Roklobsta: or not drunk enough
[19:49:58] <Roklobsta> is there a supervisor mode in the avr to allow breakpoints to be set via the serial port?
[19:50:10] <nevyn> Roklobsta: what's wrong with the arduino ide.
[19:50:20] <Roklobsta> it's fugly and slow
[19:50:28] <nevyn> slow?
[19:50:48] <Roklobsta> i just hate it. debug by serial and LED is the pits
[19:50:54] <nevyn> ah.
[19:51:07] <nevyn> so there are many things to hate.
[19:51:22] <nevyn> particularly the fact that code munging means that line level errors arn't
[19:52:25] <Kevin`> Roklobsta: if you need that sort of debugging, why not just use the hardware debug interface? serial can do quite a lot though, most of the time I don't even bother with the debugger if I have it
[19:52:43] <Roklobsta> haters be hating.
[19:52:59] * Tom_itx goes back to his nap
[19:53:10] <Roklobsta> it's woulnd't be a problem if Atmel opened up their JTAG innards
[19:53:18] <nevyn> hrm
[19:53:33] * nevyn hates that all the open hardware stuff is built on very closed hardware
[19:54:03] <Roklobsta> they have pusblished the debug interface bu you are stuck using atmel debuggers
[19:54:19] <nevyn> hrm
[19:54:20] <Kevin`> Roklobsta: since when have they published it?
[19:54:35] <Kevin`> Roklobsta: i've only seen documentation from atmel on programming using it, not debugging
[19:54:51] <Kevin`> although several people have reverse engineered it to various extents
[19:55:01] <Roklobsta> Oh! does the API only allow programming?
[19:55:55] <Roklobsta> like avrdude can use any device capable of wiggling bits to program the devices over SPI.
[19:56:00] <CapnKernel> RikusW did some reverse engineering. Either him or rue_house, I can't remember.
[19:56:04] <dirty_d> that was tasty
[19:56:06] <Kevin`> the interface allows both, but there's no documentation for it. for debugging they only tell you how to use the dongle, not the actual interface it uses
[19:57:57] <dirty_d> dongle is such a dumb word
[19:58:27] <Roklobsta> yeah but you still get to say 'dong'.
[19:58:32] <dirty_d> lol
[19:59:12] <Casper> what about "ding dong"
[19:59:41] <nevyn> http://xkcd.org/1020/
[19:59:46] <dirty_d> ding dong is an awesome word
[20:00:05] <CapnKernel> See what I could never work out was how to get the dings out of your dong.
[20:00:49] <dirty_d> dont let your dingle dangle dangle in the dirt
[20:00:58] <nevyn> see now I'm thinging about dongs and dingdong and that's not cool!
[20:01:54] <dirty_d> anyone else ordering a raspeberry pi?
[20:02:22] <dirty_d> 4 more hours till its available
[20:02:26] <nevyn> hrm
[20:02:42] <Kevin`> oh man
[20:02:45] <Kevin`> that's annoying
[20:02:55] <dirty_d> im gonna make a media center for my bedrom with it
[20:03:20] <Kevin`> I want one, but I wouldn't like camping the site to try to order one in the 5 seconds before the sell out
[20:03:42] <dirty_d> i dont think they are gonna sell out that fast
[20:03:51] <dirty_d> do 10,000 people even know about it?
[20:04:51] <CapnKernel> Yes they do
[20:04:54] <CapnKernel> Lot of buzz about it
[20:04:57] <Kevin`> plus i'd actually have to set an alarm to do it, and I won't do that. i'll probably end up going to sleep before 4 hours from now
[20:05:28] <dirty_d> im gona do it just cuz i want one more than i care about 10 minutes of sleep
[20:05:38] <dirty_d> but i wont relly care if i cant
[20:05:59] <dirty_d> ill be able to get one in the future
[20:06:10] <Kevin`> tell me when to buy one, maybe i'll be here
[20:06:52] <Roklobsta> there is an entertainer here in .au who is known as "ding dong".
[20:07:01] <dirty_d> i wonder how many impatient people wlike me will really try to order one at the minute its realeased though
[20:07:09] <Landon> 4 hours or tomorrow+4 hours?
[20:07:19] <dirty_d> cant be 10,000 people in the world like that
[20:07:19] <dirty_d> lol
[20:07:29] <Roklobsta> only if XBMC runs on it
[20:07:30] <dirty_d> for such a specific thing
[20:07:33] <Roklobsta> 1800p
[20:07:35] <dirty_d> Roklobsta, it does
[20:07:37] <Roklobsta> with 1080p
[20:07:40] <dirty_d> they have a demo of it
[20:07:42] <Roklobsta> oh i am in
[20:07:56] <Roklobsta> i just want it for a mythfe
[20:08:18] <dirty_d> its cheap enough to do anydamnthing with it
[20:08:35] <Landon> where's the announcement on when it's selling?
[20:08:40] <dirty_d> on the site
[20:08:54] <dirty_d> 06:00 GMT
[20:08:58] <Landon> that's 28 hours, not 24
[20:09:01] <Landon> on wednesday
[20:09:06] <dirty_d> good pint
[20:09:07] <Roklobsta> 6am? argh it's already 1pm here
[20:09:09] <dirty_d> point
[20:09:11] <dirty_d> lol
[20:09:16] <dirty_d> yea tomorrow not today
[20:09:16] <Kevin`> GMT ~= UTC, right?
[20:09:19] <dirty_d> yea
[20:09:22] <Landon> s/24/4/g
[20:09:25] <Roklobsta> GMT is roughly UTC.
[20:10:37] <dirty_d> why roughly
[20:11:08] <Roklobsta> ~=
[20:11:11] <Roklobsta> roughly
[20:11:26] <dirty_d> whatsthe difference i mean
[20:11:42] <Roklobsta> i'll wait. i have enoung on my plate to not get another distraction in the form of a RPi
[20:11:51] <dirty_d> me too
[20:12:00] <dirty_d> but i make bad decisions
[20:12:04] <Roklobsta> I am being facecious. I think GMT is EXACTLY the same as UTC.
[20:12:06] <dirty_d> so im gonna get one anyway
[20:12:09] <Roklobsta> I know, I have been to Greenwich.
[20:12:50] <Landon> For most common and legal-trade purposes, the fractional second difference between UTC and UT (GMT) is inconsequentially small, so UTC is often called GMT
[20:12:55] <Roklobsta> i was going to make a drum machine with arduino and piezos for my daughter, but the local music shop has a great one 2nd hand for $150.
[20:13:27] <Roklobsta> well, don't forget there is true GPS time too.
[20:13:29] <dirty_d> you cant beat that with a stick
[20:13:31] <Roklobsta> GPS !- UTC
[20:13:35] <Roklobsta> !=
[20:14:21] <Roklobsta> no i mean to say i'd mount the piezos to some chipboard cutouts, make a PVC pipe frame and have the arduino spit out midi to her laptop
[20:14:39] <Roklobsta> but a real drum machine is better. and she'll have it much sooner.
[20:14:52] <Roklobsta> as if she'd ever be able to kick me off though.
[20:15:20] <Kevin`> gps time isn't true to anything except itself (except on second boundries), you get time from gps by adding an offset that the gps signal specified
[20:15:48] <Roklobsta> yeah UTC has leap seconds.
[20:16:23] <Roklobsta> when that happens the GPS units count the sconds as , 58, 59, 60 then 00
[20:16:55] <Roklobsta> pretty clever how the gps system sends utc leapsecond updates async.
[20:17:51] <Kevin`> how good a representation of time can I get from a navigational gps unit? I want something to set the clock i'm building from, and to confirm/tweak the frequency
[20:18:09] <Kevin`> would it be better to just use a computer with ntp than a navigational gps?
[20:19:43] <dirty_d> what are you actualy using the time for?
[20:19:54] <Kevin`> use?
[20:20:06] <Roklobsta> i have used them to set time to the nearest millisecond using pps
[20:20:07] <Kevin`> nothing. I might look at it for the time
[20:20:15] <Roklobsta> that was on an 8051
[20:20:48] <dirty_d> Kevin`, oh then whats the difference
[20:21:01] <Roklobsta> i also used the pps to adjust the timer controlling the millisecond interrput so that it got as close to a ms as possible
[20:21:09] <Kevin`> dirty_d: the clock should be accurate to better than 0.03 seconds per year, so it's no FUN unless it's set correctly
[20:21:43] <dirty_d> ntp can do that
[20:22:13] <Kevin`> hopefully 0.00003 if I can set the frequency properly
[20:22:23] <Kevin`> but I doubt I can get ntp to do that
[20:22:24] <Kevin`> :)
[20:22:37] <dirty_d> but whats the point
[20:22:45] <dirty_d> if its just for a huma to look at
[20:22:47] <dirty_d> human
[20:22:50] <Kevin`> why does there have to be a point
[20:23:03] <Kevin`> i'll probably connect it to local ntp though
[20:24:23] <dirty_d> yea
[20:24:39] <Kevin`> having an accurate frequency reference would be useful for several things though, aside from time. and correcting that needs somewhat accurate time measurements from somewhere
[20:28:44] <rue_house> use a computer oscillator module
[20:31:02] <Kevin`> a what?
[20:32:02] * nevyn wants one of the CSAC dohickies
[20:32:11] <nevyn> http://www.symmetricom.com/products/frequency-references/chip-scale-atomic-clock-csac/SA.45s-CSAC/
[20:32:15] <Casper> Kevin`: I was actually debating a few days earlier about making something to help me to fine tune the clock pendulum...
[20:32:26] <Casper> I think I'm at 3 seconds per day now
[20:32:35] <Casper> I'll see tomorrow
[20:32:35] <nevyn> wow that's terrible
[20:33:14] <Casper> better than the 3 minutes per week
[20:33:39] <nevyn> A friend was given a oldschool pendulum clock where the weight was only attached by friction
[20:33:54] <nevyn> he apparently has spent 4 weeks fine tuning it.
[20:33:57] <Casper> yikes...
[20:34:44] <nevyn> he's having an awesome time I'm assured.
[20:34:52] <Kevin`> Casper: make a pll to ntp-utc and leave it permanently attached, problem solved ;p
[20:35:05] <rue_house> Kevin`, have you never seen the crystal oscillator modules for computers?
[20:35:21] <nevyn> atomic or die!
[20:35:30] <Kevin`> rue_house: no. but a computer already has several crystal oscillators, what's such a device's purpose?
[20:35:40] <Kevin`> rue_house: and indeed, a crystal isn't accurate enough by itself
[20:35:54] <rue_house> you dont get it
[20:36:12] <Kevin`> so explain it. what does the device do
[20:36:16] <rue_house> give me a minute to expalin to you the question I asked and the answer
[20:37:20] <rue_house> http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/products/AOCJY4A-10.000MHZ-SW/535-10691-ND/2441457
[20:38:01] <rue_house> kevin, 18:28-18:15 ago, you said " having an accurate frequency reference would be useful for several things"
[20:38:21] <rue_house> you seemed to say this with the inferrence you didn't know where to find one
[20:38:44] <rue_house> the digikey link I posted 2 mins ago is my answer to your question
[20:38:53] <Kevin`> rue_house: what i'm trying to SET is a rubidium-controlled oscillator that outputs 10mhz
[20:39:07] <rue_house> its a pre-calibtrated freqency module
[20:39:12] <Kevin`> it would be a bit odd to use that as a reference for it
[20:39:46] <Kevin`> although it might have better stability from the factory for a while
[20:39:47] <rue_house> why?
[20:39:55] <nevyn> Kevin`: gps 1pps output?
[20:40:39] <Valen> gps is probably the only way you will get better than a rubidium osc
[20:40:46] <nevyn> cesium
[20:40:49] <Kevin`> nevyn: I don't have one designed for that. I have a usb dongle that has a 1pps output internally, but i'm not sure exactly how accurate it is
[20:41:01] <Valen> you buy that one, i'll buy a gps ;-P
[20:41:16] <nevyn> Valen: see above.
[20:42:14] <Valen> usb is going to be crap
[20:42:27] <Valen> just going over the usb bus will make lots of random delay and jitter
[20:42:38] <nevyn> if he taps the 1pps off the usb blob.
[20:42:43] <nevyn> tho grounding blah blah eek.
[20:42:57] <Kevin`> rue_house: heh, doing the fiddly number manipulation, the short term stability for that ocxo is the same as the 1-year stability for the thing i'm tryng to set
[20:43:24] <Valen> probably cheaper just to get a bare gps breakout ;->
[20:43:31] <nevyn> Kevin`: whats the unit you're trying to set?
[20:43:46] <nevyn> Valen: but he has the gps blob.
[20:43:55] <Kevin`> nevyn: one of those old telcom units that have been cheap on ebay lately
[20:44:15] * nevyn should get a decent 10mhz ref
[20:44:44] <Valen> i meant it would be easier to buy a bare gps breakout for the 1pps than mucking with the usb blob
[20:44:49] <nevyn> right.
[20:44:50] <Kevin`> anyone in the milwaukee area with a caesium clock? I could get this all done right quick ;p
[20:45:30] * nevyn knows someone with a gps diciplined rubidium in colarado.
[20:46:39] <nevyn> you really want continuous diciplining to a global tier 1 the easiest way to access this. is using GPS
[20:47:10] * Valen has a GPS NTP server that was found on the side of the road
[20:47:11] <Valen> literally
[20:47:22] <Valen> i think it has an ovened rubidium osc in it
[20:47:31] <nevyn> nice!
[20:47:35] <Valen> i'm thinking of sticking it in at a clients just for giggles
[20:47:37] <Kevin`> how do I verify that the pps output from my gps module is accurate? it's just an internal header that's not intended to be used or seen
[20:47:40] <Valen> i havent run it in years
[20:47:42] <Kevin`> Valen: neato
[20:48:05] <Valen> only problem is it wont get GPS there :-< and i never managed to get it working with GPS at all either
[20:49:05] <Valen> but i manually set the time on it and a year later without even being powered it was still right lol
[20:49:11] <Valen> within like 10 seconds or so
[20:50:12] <Kevin`> must have one of those low power watch crystal things as a backup. I doubt it could run the main oscillator without power
[20:53:10] <Kevin`> must have one of those low power watch crystal things as a backup. I doubt it could run the main oscillator without power
[20:53:42] <Roklobsta> don't trust the pps unless the manufacturer says that they intend the unit to be used for timing.
[20:53:59] <Roklobsta> i have had trouble with gps units giving buggered pps
[20:54:23] <Roklobsta> infact the SiRF FAE told me outright SiRF parts and software weren't valid for accurate timing use.
[20:54:54] <Roklobsta> so look for GPS module vendors and look for parts that they qualify for timing.
[20:55:30] <Kevin`> i'm thinking the best thing to do would be to count cycles for a few hours/days and compare the result to ntp twice
[20:56:42] <nevyn> http://www2.iee.or.jp/ver2/honbu/14-magazine/log/2005/2005_08c_08.pdf
[20:59:36] <nevyn> so the gps 1pps is only good to 20ns or so.
[20:59:43] <Roklobsta> ok where's the rest of the article?
[20:59:57] <Roklobsta> even the 1us most gps pps's should be ok
[21:00:51] <Roklobsta> anyway, as i said if you need accurate pps and time then get a proper timing module
[21:00:54] <nevyn> sigh..
[21:01:11] <Roklobsta> not some cheap unit that happens to have a pps
[21:01:12] <nevyn> I hate. hate hate.. paywall research.
[21:01:48] <Roklobsta> go to your local uni library, they mioght have access to all those journals
[21:01:58] <Roklobsta> and research paper databases
[21:02:44] <Roklobsta> http://www.navsync.com/GPS_timing.html
[21:03:10] <Roklobsta> http://www.u-blox.com/en/lea-5t.html
[21:04:08] <Roklobsta> bugger, ublox bought signav
http://www.u-blox.com/en/signav.html
[21:04:59] <Roklobsta> http://www.u-blox.com/en/gps-modules/u-blox-6-timing-module/lea-6t.html
[21:05:06] <CapnKernel> nevyn: hi
[21:05:15] <Roklobsta> anyway there are a lot of timing modules
[21:05:21] <CapnKernel> nevyn: Roklobsta lives in w'bool
[21:05:22] <nevyn> hrm
[21:05:28] <nevyn> neato
[21:05:32] <Kevin`> Roklobsta: are any of them reasonably priced?
[21:05:37] <Roklobsta> dunno ask
[21:05:46] <Roklobsta> probably more exe than usual
[21:06:04] <Roklobsta> make sure you put your antenna up high and away from reflections
[21:06:26] <Roklobsta> like the sides of buildings. best to get a good view of the entire sky
[21:08:07] <Kevin`> if you have to ask the price of a product, it's not something you can afford unless your corporation is paying for it
[21:09:40] <Sgt_Lemming> YAY! my plane just arrived
[21:10:17] <CapnKernel> Sgt_Lemming: Your boards got shipped last night
[21:10:32] <CapnKernel> Should arrive by the winter solstice :-)
[21:10:43] <Sgt_Lemming> heh
[21:10:44] <Sgt_Lemming> awesome
[21:17:03] <Valen> ntp jitter could be signifigant to you
[21:17:46] <Valen> if the gps 1pps doesn't suffer from jitter (which you could find out with the osc) if its just delayed then it should be ok
[21:17:58] <Kevin`> I think ntpd is smart enough to filter most of that out
[21:18:04] <Valen> oh its pretty good
[21:18:09] <Valen> good enough for any sane person
[21:18:13] <Valen> your just a nutter ;-P
[21:18:17] <Kevin`> :D
[21:20:48] <nevyn> a TCOX is heaps for any normal person
[22:00:59] <Roklobsta> nevyn sounds familiar - melb-wireless perhaps
[22:01:08] <Roklobsta> oh yes
[22:01:16] <Roklobsta> indeed.
[22:33:35] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: You got him in one :-)
[22:36:01] <nevyn> uh-huh
