#avr | Logs for 2012-02-25

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[00:28:32] <TechIsCool> can anyone help me with an avr dragon fimrware issue?
[02:03:26] <ziph> !thislog
[02:03:27] <tobbor> This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23avr-2012-02-25.html
[02:04:12] <ziph> All the logs are 403...
[04:19:48] <norbi> hello]
[04:22:24] <norbi> any experience with rt2571wf?
[04:22:52] <theBear> i only used rt2400
[04:22:59] <theBear> unreliable as hell at least in linux
[04:23:11] <theBear> old os driver was good for a few versions, then it went to hell again
[04:25:27] <norbi> theBear: i would like to interface it with an mcu
[04:25:31] <norbi> it is possible?
[04:29:18] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, suggest you remove the old firmware update from your page
[04:29:22] <abcminiuser> Given it's faulty
[05:39:30] <OndraSter> abcminiuser_, when you are debugging through JTAG, does it write the application to the flash? I thought it did, but I had small bug in the app. When I stopped debugging session, it ran the older version with bug instead the newer one, that I was just debugging...?
[05:43:04] <specing> abcminiuser_: What is the "abcmini" that you use?
[05:50:00] <abcminiuser> OndraSter, yes, it writes to flash
[05:50:02] <abcminiuser> specing, my first AVR board was called the "ABC Mini"
[05:50:26] <abcminiuser> When I signed up to AVRFreaks many years ago to post my manual I wrote for it, I just typed in the obvious as the username
[05:50:31] <abcminiuser> Now it stuck ::P
[05:50:38] <specing> ...
[05:51:13] <specing> logic ;D
[05:51:49] <specing> first AVR board 5 years ago; atmel employee now?
[05:52:06] <specing> Or was it sooner?
[05:55:52] <theBear> been a long time, would need a picture to be sure, think my first board (friends place, he couldn't understand programming, and i already knew most languages and basics of micros and lots of electronics) was the abc maxi...
[05:56:26] <theBear> my first was a dontronics dt104 i think, the 90s2313 one with a eeprom and a 1" or so of 'prototype' space at one end
[06:04:28] <OndraSter> where would Atmel (and mostly whole AVR series) be without AVRFreaks
[06:04:29] <OndraSter> and Dean :P
[06:04:33] <OndraSter> by now
[06:12:31] <specing> OndraSter: the term "dark ages" was coined for a reason
[06:20:08] <Roklobsta_> 32C, too hot to sleep, too hot to AVR.
[06:20:28] <OndraSter> yay 32C
[06:21:19] <Roklobsta> the TMP75 says it's 32C in here. Oh well, at least it shows I2C is working.
[06:21:24] <Steffann> I can share my 8C width you Roklobsta
[06:21:25] <theBear> i got a pleasant 18c
[06:21:29] <theBear> about time too
[06:21:40] <Roklobsta> 11pm and 32C.
[06:22:20] <Roklobsta> i bought a laptop party to get away from case fan noise and the pecker is whining like a banshee.
[06:22:25] <Roklobsta> partly
[06:26:51] <specing> Roklobsta: Get a fanless computer ;D
[06:27:09] <specing> an ARM one
[06:27:32] <Roklobsta> as long as it runs vlc
[06:27:48] <Steffann> runs or .. runs
[06:27:55] <specing> Whats up with all the people and VLC?
[06:28:11] <Steffann> specing watches movies in ASCII in his terminal?
[06:28:20] <specing> Mplayer is the defacto unix/linux movie player
[06:28:28] <theBear> aalib or caca ?
[06:28:56] <theBear> i'd buy a machine if it advertised that it COULDN'T run vlc :)
[06:30:19] <Roklobsta> vlc in windows is just dandy
[06:30:36] <Roklobsta> i only use linux for my mythtv box
[06:30:49] <Roklobsta> linux on my i7 laptop kinda sucks. win7 is fine.
[06:31:17] <OndraSter> I use linux only when I have to and only in vm
[06:31:29] <Roklobsta> interesting the Dragon has an atmega and mega on it, at least atmel eat their own dogfood.
[06:31:30] <OndraSter> wondering how will VM work on 1.7GHz Pentium M :P
[06:31:35] <specing> I only buy computers that are known to be well supported under Linux
[06:32:05] <Roklobsta> my laptop does work with linux but it just wasn't as nice as win7.
[06:32:34] <Roklobsta> i might try the linuxmin12kde on it. oh, kubuntu on my eepc is great
[06:32:47] <Roklobsta> the netbook gui is pretty good
[06:32:56] <specing> unity?
[06:33:04] <Roklobsta> it's kde
[06:33:09] <specing> oh
[06:33:13] <specing> thats better
[06:33:18] <Roklobsta> but all touchapddy
[06:33:27] * wollw is uxing xubuntu right now.
[06:33:48] <Steffann> Poor you
[06:34:11] <Roklobsta> tortoisesvn is a shitty beast. it munges checkouts of avrdude so they don't compile!
[06:34:27] <specing> haha
[06:34:37] <wollw> poor me?
[06:34:40] <Steffann> Who needs avrdude on windows anyway? :P
[06:34:42] <Steffann> Poor you, yes
[06:34:52] <Steffann> *needs = uses
[06:35:12] <Steffann> Windows users should use AVR Studio 4/5
[06:35:20] <wollw> for xfce or for using a version of ubuntu? :P
[06:35:21] <Roklobsta> i do.
[06:35:32] <Roklobsta> i use 4 and started to use 5.1 as 5 sucked
[06:36:11] <Roklobsta> it's a shame they didn't stick to eclipse for OS agnostic devel.
[06:36:17] <Roklobsta> but uniform interface
[06:46:52] <Steffann> VS is better :P
[06:52:33] <pc_magas> Good evening
[06:53:21] <Roklobsta> kali nixta
[06:53:38] <Roklobsta> spera
[06:53:40] <Roklobsta> damn
[06:54:00] <Roklobsta> there used to be an Atmel in greece.
[06:56:29] <Roklobsta> does anyone here use avrdude, windows and an ftdi chip based part from programming?
[06:56:38] <pc_magas> <Roklobsta Ela re Simpatrioti ti kaneis?
[06:57:01] <Roklobsta> i pretty much used all my polite greek on you.
[06:57:44] <pc_magas> den xreiazetai na eisai kai tooso formal
[06:57:51] <pc_magas> Kurie/Kyria
[06:58:02] <Roklobsta> the rest is bad words
[06:58:20] <Steffann> Google translate doesn't understand that pc_magas
[06:58:21] <Steffann> :(
[06:58:51] <pc_magas> I was talking in Greeklish Greek with latin letters)
[06:59:11] <Roklobsta> yeah fail for me too
[06:59:15] <Roklobsta> Ellinish
[07:00:11] <Roklobsta> i heard part of the austerity measures for greece was that everyone had to go back to dialup to save on bandwidth costs.
[07:00:44] <Steffann> Don't believe everything you hear
[07:01:05] <pc_magas> It only would be more expensive the dialup connections
[07:01:17] <pc_magas> because we greeks have our router on all day long
[07:01:36] <theBear> i heard they gotta use vine leaves instead of toilet paper from now on
[07:01:51] <Steffann> That wouldn't be that bad, theBear
[07:01:59] <Roklobsta> well also that the internet would also only be available from midnight until 3am.
[07:02:04] <theBear> nah, point is tho, don't believe everything you hear, specially on the old 'net
[07:02:30] <Roklobsta> thebear: you know thats how dolmathes are made
[07:02:51] <theBear> hehe, was wondering someone would take it there, well done sir
[07:02:59] * Roklobsta bows.
[07:03:17] <Steffann> Tell me Roklobsta
[07:05:32] <Roklobsta> i am fairly new to avr, though it seems to me for a lot of stuff people woudl be using xmega now and not these older parts.
[07:06:22] <Roklobsta> see, there he goes. internet blackout until tomorrow.
[07:06:59] <Steffann> I think xmega isn't used that much at all
[07:07:20] <theBear> internet blackout ? is it the blitz or something ?
[07:07:29] <Steffann> Greece :)
[07:07:53] <Roklobsta> austerity for greece. Angela Merkel said they have to do some work and make something, not just have a good time all day.
[07:08:15] <theBear> wtf ? seriously ? wow, first time anything worth seeing has been in the news forever
[07:08:49] <theBear> does it affect those grumpy umm, damned brain, cypriates too
[07:09:26] <Roklobsta> no, the cyrpriots have quietly associated themselves with turkey for the purposes of not incurring the wrath of Merkel.
[07:09:46] <theBear> pfft, they're more un-austere than the greek
[07:09:48] <theBear> slightly <grin>
[07:09:53] * theBear means it all in good humour
[07:10:24] <Roklobsta> no you are right
[07:14:35] <abcminiuser_> specing, 8 years or so ago
[07:14:36] <abcminiuser_> When I started
[07:14:36] <abcminiuser_> Now I'm an Atmel engineer
[07:15:07] <specing> Hehe
[07:16:02] <Steffann> Support / Helpdesk :P
[07:16:56] <specing> Haha
[07:17:21] <ureif> Vice President for Mailroom Operations!
[07:18:06] <abcminiuser_> Not any more
[07:18:08] <abcminiuser_> I'm on ASF dev
[07:18:10] <specing> Organic phone answering machine
[07:19:17] <Roklobsta> ASF?
[07:19:25] <Roklobsta> are you in norway?
[07:20:51] <Steffann> /whois abcminiuser_
[07:22:59] <abcminiuser_> Roamin, I'm (now) an apps engineer for Atmel, living in Norway
[07:23:16] <abcminiuser_> ASF = AVR Software Framework, the drivers and examples in AVR Studio 5.1
[07:23:36] <abcminiuser_> When I'm not working, I write LUFA (www.fourwalledcubicle.com) and enjoy long walks on the beach
[07:24:13] <Steffann> In the snow
[07:32:18] <specing> "and enjoy long walks on the beach" -- Are palm trees also included?
[07:33:02] <Steffann> Palm trees in norway...
[07:33:20] <Steffann> Plastic palm trees
[07:34:06] <Roklobsta> oh YOU!
[07:34:14] <Roklobsta> expatriate australian
[07:34:14] <Tom_itx> long walks on the beach as viewed here: http://fourwalledcubicle.com/Internship.php
[07:34:25] <Roklobsta> sound like ween spamera
[07:35:21] <Roklobsta> it's been a stupid hot weekend in victoria, be glad you are missing it.
[07:36:57] <Roklobsta> acbminiuser_: you might know, why would an AVR32 be better than a cortex-M3/4 for an embedded internet app with ethernet?
[07:37:08] <Steffann> he left..
[07:37:13] <Roklobsta> OH fsck
[07:37:20] <Roklobsta> i dind't see. the heat is afecting me
[07:37:55] <Tom_itx> i took his place
[07:38:17] <Tom_itx> it's a crouded room
[07:38:47] <Steffann> So Tom_itx is our new Atmel Helpdesk guy
[07:38:56] <Steffann> tom@helpdesk.atmel.no ?
[07:38:59] <Tom_itx> yeah right
[07:40:59] <theBear> no shit ?
[07:41:17] <Steffann> sherlock
[07:42:13] <Tom_itx> somebody will believe just about anything on irc at any given time
[07:42:33] <Steffann> I'll send an email too tom@helpdesk.atmel.no
[07:42:36] <Steffann> to
[07:46:01] <Steffann> Delivery failed
[08:11:18] <ziph> Yay.
[08:11:28] <ziph> XP SP3 fixes all the usbser issues with IAC's.
[08:16:45] <norbi> guys what is the differense betweeen ENC28J60/ss or /ML /SO /SP /SS ?
[08:17:56] <ziph> Have a look at the "ordering" section of the datasheet.
[08:18:27] <norbi> ziph: i cant find ordering section in the datasheet
[08:19:03] <norbi> there is an identification system
[08:19:26] <norbi> but Tape and Reel? what is that
[08:19:39] <norbi> SSOP package commercial temperature...
[08:19:53] <ziph> SP is SPDIP, SO is SOIC, SS is SSOP and ML is QFN
[08:19:53] <norbi> ML is QFN, that means it is small like hell
[08:20:21] <ziph> Page 89
[08:21:00] <norbi> aham, so it is smaller and smaller and smaller, i need then SP
[08:21:08] <norbi> thanks for help!
[08:21:19] <specing> Wish I bought SPDIP version of it
[08:21:30] <specing> Instead I bought the 0.2 mm pitch SSOP...
[08:21:37] * specing headdesks
[08:23:11] <OndraSter> I found out that it is cheaper to get finished modules with magjack and what not rather buying all parts on its own :/
[08:24:16] <specing> I have all the parts to build a module
[08:24:37] <specing> Just not the equipment to produce 0.2 PCB
[08:24:45] <OndraSter> eh
[08:24:52] <OndraSter> you can buy finished module for $6.5
[08:24:53] <OndraSter> on ebay
[08:25:06] <specing> Well but that is not the same feeling
[08:25:24] <OndraSter> it has all - ENC28J60, RJ45 with magnetics, crystal, caps, resistors, everything
[08:25:25] <specing> The feeling you get when you achieve something on your own
[08:25:27] <OndraSter> haha
[08:25:39] <OndraSter> the only reason to make it on your own is that you want to make it on bigger board
[08:25:40] <specing> I hate arduinos for the same reason
[08:26:08] <specing> And I have nothing against them hard/software side
[08:26:24] <specing> They are great for learning embedded programming
[08:26:26] <OndraSter> I dislike the software... the "IDE" is absolutely terrible
[08:26:40] <Tom_itx> they don't teach fundamentals
[08:26:45] <Tom_itx> you need that
[08:26:51] <specing> Tom_itx: Indeed
[08:27:07] <specing> THey are more like fast introduction
[08:27:08] <Tom_itx> or you will be joining #avr asking WTF?
[08:28:00] <Tom_itx> i consider them as cheating on a final
[08:28:49] <OndraSter> haha
[08:29:00] <OndraSter> duh my room is such a mess
[08:29:02] <OndraSter> I should clean it up
[08:29:04] <OndraSter> and setup my lab :P
[08:32:11] <norbi> did you ever ordered samples from microchip
[08:32:19] <OndraSter> nop
[08:38:23] <OndraSter> hmm is there something as cheap as NRF24L01+ and as good/even better?
[08:38:51] <OndraSter> I thought about making one main station with this chip, that would also be connected to ethernet to my home network, would serve simple web pages from another clients "around the house"
[08:39:07] <OndraSter> I could plug in any device aroud the house and wirelessly send the data to the network
[08:39:19] <OndraSter> and connect eg thermometers, humidity meters, anythng
[08:39:27] <OndraSter> as long as there is the signal available
[08:43:27] <Casper> what is nrf24lwhavever?
[08:46:14] <OndraSter> it is 2.4GHz rx/tx device
[08:46:17] <OndraSter> for like 2.5 bucks
[08:46:20] <OndraSter> upto 2Mbit
[08:47:01] <OndraSter> with few tens/hundreds of m range (about as bluetooth in a phone, maybe a bit more I'd say)
[08:47:39] <Casper> there is something (more expensive but still) that is to be considered: dd-wrt able router, one with a serial port or alike
[08:48:09] <Casper> you have a complete "pc" already, on linux
[08:48:26] <Casper> all you have to do is add the devices and the "drivers" for them
[08:48:39] <OndraSter> but it requires each device to be wifi :P
[08:49:23] <OndraSter> and with like 5 - 7 devices around the house it gets quite expensive
[08:49:37] <OndraSter> usable wifi module for avr is like $10 - $20
[08:49:48] <OndraSter> I was wrong
[08:49:58] <OndraSter> $52.10 cheapest hit on ebay for arduino wifi
[08:50:21] <OndraSter> I like these
[08:50:21] <OndraSter> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Perfect-High-Quality-New-NRF24L01-2-4GHz-Wireless-Transceiver-Module-Arduino-/260920481575?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc0129727
[08:50:25] <OndraSter> these nrf24l01+
[08:52:49] <Casper> interresting
[08:53:11] <OndraSter> yeah
[08:53:23] <OndraSter> too bad that those ones with external SMA antenna plug cost way more
[08:53:39] <OndraSter> or at least on ebay
[08:54:03] <Casper> but it's doubtable that an external antenna would give a better range
[08:54:21] <OndraSter> people report that it makes huge difference
[08:56:24] <Casper> oh? then the chinese design is bad
[08:56:41] <OndraSter> it is reference design
[08:57:02] <Casper> or "reference"
[08:57:24] <Casper> have they followed everything as in the reference? or did the trace 1 mil less wide?
[08:58:34] <OndraSter> no idea
[09:02:50] <TechIsCool> Does anyone have firmware version 7.15 for a avr dragon that actually works? I can't seem to get mine to work
[09:03:37] <TechIsCool> md5 on my firmware is a88c8bf01e753730621545a8f98f22eb
[09:03:57] <specing> :( Wish there were PCs with this inside: http://tilera.com/products/processors/TILE-Gx_Family
[09:04:53] <specing> Instead we have to use that stupid and legacy x86 architecture :(
[09:05:09] <Steffann> poor you
[09:05:26] <specing> :/
[09:06:04] <Steffann> Marketing talk included
[09:06:18] <Tom_itx> many core with no software support yet
[09:10:18] <OndraSter> hmm I have 7.e on my dragon
[09:10:23] <OndraSter> for AS5.0
[09:11:06] <specing> Tom_itx: Linux runs there
[09:11:15] <OndraSter> 7.15 in AS5.1
[09:11:18] <TechIsCool> OndraSter: 5.1 has 7.15 and it won't work without it I
[09:11:18] <OndraSter> not updating... :P
[09:11:22] <Tom_itx> order me one or two please
[09:11:45] <Tom_itx> i'll use it for my irc client pc
[09:12:02] <TechIsCool> OndraSter: yes it won't upgrade I am not sure if its my files I have mine at 7.e but it won't make it past it
[09:12:30] <OndraSter> I am not letting it update, I am not switching to 5.1... 5.0 is working fine, I need it 100% working :P
[09:19:31] <specing> CapnKernel: What are your eyes seeing down there in China?
[09:23:58] <TechIsCool> specing: too many people?
[10:06:28] <CapnKernel> Someone mentioned my name, but I'm a day and a half behind. Sorry guys, I'll be there soon.
[10:17:26] <OndraSter> CapnKernel, I and Jan- did
[10:17:30] <OndraSter> but I meanwhile forgot what I wanted lol
[10:43:40] * RikusW seems to have a concussion :(
[10:49:14] <RikusW> and a big shiner
[11:43:33] <CapnKernel> Yay, I caught up!
[12:00:16] <keenerd> CapnKernel: So what is the electronics scene like in China?
[12:01:06] <CapnKernel> On the commercial level, or for hobbyists?
[12:01:47] <specing> both
[12:02:09] <specing> CapnKernel: How much do normal things cost there? Like PCs and stuffs?
[12:02:24] <CapnKernel> I live in Shenzhen. I should say that outside Shenzhen and a few other places, most people don't care about electronics. Most people just consume stuff like in the "outside world"
[12:02:26] <TechIsCool> Does anyone have the Agra dragon firmware 7.15?
[12:03:01] <TechIsCool> lol avr
[12:03:01] <CapnKernel> Imported items, like CPUs, are more expensive than overseas, because of high import tariffs.
[12:03:52] <CapnKernel> Peripherals are significantly cheaper. The prices you see on Ebay is fairly indicative of what you pay here.
[12:04:14] <CapnKernel> But people in the outside world earn more here, so the average person's relative buying power is less than outside.
[12:04:46] <CapnKernel> Sorry, people outside earn more than people inside
[12:05:18] <CapnKernel> It's a very strange phenomenon: 1.5billion people living in a bubble.
[12:05:47] <TechIsCool> Lol
[12:05:59] <TechIsCool> That's a huge bubble
[12:06:02] <CapnKernel> HIGHLY insular, the vast majority of Chinese people have absolutely no idea about the outside world.
[12:06:08] <CapnKernel> It's a bubble all the same.
[12:06:21] <keenerd> How far does english get you?
[12:07:12] <CapnKernel> I carry a box of pens with me. When people ask me where I'm from, I ask them to guess which country. If they can guess more than five countries (I'm not talking about guess in English, I mean guess in their own language), then I give them a free pen.
[12:07:33] <CapnKernel> The box has twenty pens, and I'm still on the first box. In general, people just have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA about life outside the bubble, even to the extend that they are totally ignorant of geography outside of China.
[12:07:56] <CapnKernel> keenerd: It doesn't, especially in the electronic markets.
[12:08:20] <CapnKernel> Shenzhen is an immigrant city. Everyone here is from somewhere else. So in order to understand each other, they have to use their common second language: Mandarin.
[12:08:20] <keenerd> Re geography, that was surprising. Re language, not surprised.
[12:09:48] <CapnKernel> Three years ago I studied for a semester in a city in north-east China (Dalian). I lived and spent the majority of my time on campus, and all university graduates are required to know English. (Methinks this is entirely a method of throttling demand for university places - an artificial barrier to entry). But it meant that you could use English and survive
[12:10:08] <CapnKernel> It's not the same here in Shenzhen. You don't know Chinese, well, life is interesting.
[12:10:43] <CapnKernel> It's no walk in the park for me either, but my Chinese is quite good enough for daily life.
[12:10:53] <CapnKernel> I have three flatmates, and none of them can speak functional English.
[12:11:03] <TechIsCool> Really amazes me how the bubble is like a one way mirror everyone sees in but no one sees out
[12:11:15] <CapnKernel> Yeah
[12:11:28] <CapnKernel> And get this: They really don't want to know they're inside a bubble.
[12:11:42] <CapnKernel> The idea of living inside a bubble is beyond their comprehension.
[12:12:14] <TechIsCool> Some days it might be nice to live inside a bubble vs fighting world wars
[12:12:29] <CapnKernel> Regarding thinking, national psyche and internet website, they are entirely self-sufficient.
[12:13:01] <TechIsCool> Do you have to use a VPN to get onto freenode?
[12:13:26] <CapnKernel> The majority of Chinese netizens have never encountered the Great FireWall, and don't even believe it exists. And if you show them a blocked site in practice, they unfailingly say "well it's not like we'd ever want to visit that site anyway".
[12:14:16] <CapnKernel> The true genius of the Chinese firewall system is not that it stops people, but that it has fostered the development of internal (and nobbled) alternatives, that few people ever try to or need to get past it.
[12:14:20] <TechIsCool> Bubble ftw
[12:14:38] <CapnKernel> Freenode, no, as IRC isn't a large enough phenomenon to be a threat.
[12:16:32] <keenerd> Is zh.wikipedia.org blocked?
[12:17:13] <CapnKernel> You can see my VPN whitelist: https://github.com/CapnKernel/crabs/blob/master/crabs.txt
[12:17:17] <CapnKernel> No
[12:17:21] <CapnKernel> It was for me in 2008
[12:17:34] <CapnKernel> I couldn't even read my city's newspaper
[12:18:13] <CapnKernel> The GFW is not one monolithic thing. It is layers and layers of stuff, in different places. So something might be possible in one area but not another.
[12:18:47] <CapnKernel> Sociology aside, the worst thing they do is catch DNS requests and lie about IP addresses.
[12:19:10] <CapnKernel> The false DNS record points to a filtering proxy
[12:19:30] <CapnKernel> So the first thing you VPN is your DNS server.
[12:20:10] <CapnKernel> The next most common thing is that they inject RST packets into your TCP connections to banned sites
[12:20:18] <CapnKernel> So I put such sites on my whitelist.
[12:20:49] <CapnKernel> This happened to me more often in 2008 than now, but it is possible that if you access certain sites, your internet access will be cut of for 15 mins or so.
[12:22:48] <CapnKernel> Any more questions? (2am, looking to turn in soon, but I do love talking about this)
[12:23:04] <CapnKernel> Shenzhen is amazing, it's like living in Bladerunner City.
[12:23:39] <keenerd> I am insatiably curious, but I don't know enough to ask good questions :-)
[12:23:50] <CapnKernel> Any time you do, you're welcome to ask.
[12:24:12] <CapnKernel> Being able to communicate in another language is a very cool feeling.
[12:24:45] <keenerd> That is a weak point personally. Just european languages are a struggle for me.
[12:24:58] <CapnKernel> Sometimes I get a funny reaction from Chinese: They don't really know how to handle a Westerner who can speak Chinese. It's almost like "you, don't speak, it's our language not yours, you're freaking us out"
[12:25:38] <CapnKernel> I'm not a language person by any stretch. It's been a 5 year hard slog, including six months away from my family, to get where I am.
[12:25:42] <specing> CapnKernel: Can you download stuff from sourceforge?
[12:25:48] <CapnKernel> Yep
[12:25:55] <CapnKernel> sf is not blocked
[12:26:00] <specing> I've had this case of an Iranian who couldn't earlier today
[12:26:06] <CapnKernel> In general, technical stuff isn't blocked
[12:26:15] <specing> I mean, this is an american-side block
[12:26:20] <specing> not chinese one
[12:26:39] <CapnKernel> Social media gets blocks, and sites that have points of view on international issues which are contrary to the official line here.
[12:26:59] <mrfrenzy_> where on the american side? must be on the sf servers, cause us couldn't filter all routes to Iran
[12:27:43] <keenerd> http://sourceforge.net/blog/clarifying-sourceforgenets-denial-of-site-access-for-certain-persons-in-accordance-with-us-law/
[12:28:01] <mrfrenzy_> yeah
[12:28:02] <CapnKernel> Folks, I'm going now. Thanks for the chat.
[12:28:11] <mrfrenzy_> cya
[12:28:15] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel
[12:28:18] <CapnKernel> Oh, and yes I'm doing quotes (and fabbing and shipping) PCBs for people now.
[12:28:32] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: hi.
[12:28:35] <Tom_itx> B3U-3000P
[12:28:41] <Tom_itx> see if you can find one of those
[12:28:42] <specing> mrfrenzy_: they have crazy laws over there
[12:28:46] <mrfrenzy_> you'll have to tell us about that later
[12:28:50] <Tom_itx> or B3U-3000P-B
[12:29:01] <keenerd> CapnKernel: A page anywhere with rough PCB estimates?
[12:29:03] <Tom_itx> B has an alignment tit on the bottom
[12:29:09] <CapnKernel> I've been studying China for more than 20 years, and there is seriously only one law.
[12:29:15] <mrfrenzy_> also CapnKernel, do you know of anyone who does sign engraving with some kind of automatic ordering system?
[12:29:23] <CapnKernel> And that is, "don't challenge the party". Anything else you can do with enough money.
[12:29:31] <CapnKernel> And even then it doesn't take too much
[12:29:49] <CapnKernel> The system here is utterly corrupt and self-serving.
[12:30:36] <CapnKernel> keenerd: Online ordering will be here soon, but until then, PM me. It doesn't take too long.
[12:30:55] <CapnKernel> The folks who I've given quotes to have been pleasantly surprised.
[12:31:25] <CapnKernel> Here's a board which is about to make its way to Australia: http://imagebin.org/200680
[12:32:03] <CapnKernel> Monday I'm shipping cyanide (he's in here online now) his board to India.
[12:32:18] <keenerd> I'll bother you with that when it is less late, I'm a bit aways from doing a production run.
[12:32:19] <CapnKernel> That pic is not the best, but the board is very nice.
[12:32:26] <CapnKernel> My min qty: 5.
[12:32:36] <CapnKernel> Any size, any shape.
[12:32:41] <CapnKernel> Free shipping.
[12:32:44] <keenerd> Layers?
[12:32:48] <CapnKernel> 1 2 4 6
[12:33:55] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel, did you catch that number i posted?
[12:34:00] <CapnKernel> Yes
[12:34:10] <Tom_itx> side actuated button
[12:34:30] <CapnKernel> I'll see what I can do.
[12:34:50] <CapnKernel> Basically, if it's a part that's on the BoMs of products being manufactured now, I can get it.
[12:34:53] <CapnKernel> Qty?
[12:34:57] <Tom_itx> those are omron
[12:35:02] <Tom_itx> i don't need alot of those
[12:35:08] <CapnKernel> That's ok.
[12:35:17] <Tom_itx> maybe 50 - 100
[12:35:21] <CapnKernel> My switch supplier likes to provide switches from Korea and Japan
[12:35:22] <CapnKernel> Fine.
[12:35:39] <keenerd> CapnKernel: I am guessing 8/8 mil clearance?
[12:35:43] <Tom_itx> the boards i have currently don't have the mounting tit hole
[12:35:48] <Tom_itx> but i can drill one if i have to
[12:36:07] <CapnKernel> I believe the fab house will go down to 6 mil, but until we'd had more boards go through, I wouldn't push it.
[12:36:19] <CapnKernel> No, it's not the same fab as Seeed and Itead.
[12:36:19] <Tom_itx> what about via size?
[12:36:28] <Tom_itx> oh
[12:36:32] <CapnKernel> To be honest, I don't know.
[12:36:33] <Tom_itx> no worries then
[12:36:37] <Tom_itx> i've use em both
[12:36:58] <Tom_itx> got drc for both on the conservative side
[12:37:26] <Tom_itx> what about a .5 x 1.25 board?
[12:37:29] <Tom_itx> approx
[12:37:34] <CapnKernel> If you have a design which has gone successfully through those two, then there will be no problem at all with putting it through me.
[12:37:41] <Tom_itx> quan say 25-50
[12:37:56] <CapnKernel> You'd have to be more specific, and for that, we'd go to PM for a quote.
[12:38:02] <Tom_itx> mkay
[12:38:07] <Tom_itx> i have gerbers ready
[12:38:15] <CapnKernel> Were you at some stage looking for box headers?
[12:38:23] <Tom_itx> not now
[12:38:27] <CapnKernel> Ok
[12:38:30] <Tom_itx> i found some for .20
[12:38:35] <CapnKernel> Ok
[12:38:42] <Tom_itx> 6pin dual row idc with shroud
[12:38:49] <Tom_itx> like the programmer has
[12:39:15] <Tom_itx> i won't need any for a while but if you can beat that i'd be interested
[12:39:25] <CapnKernel> My fab house has the board made 3-4 days (inc delivery to me) after the order is placed. That includes having someone audit the board for manufacturability.
[12:39:35] <Tom_itx> that's less than half what i was paying
[12:39:45] * CapnKernel loves his Tom_itx programmer. Folks, if you don't have one, get one.
[12:39:58] <Tom_itx> well, see if you can find those connectors if you want
[12:40:02] <CapnKernel> Ok
[12:40:05] <Tom_itx> you can see what they look like :)
[12:40:12] <CapnKernel> :-)
[12:40:20] <Tom_itx> does yours have a 4 leg reset button?
[12:40:23] <Tom_itx> or 2?
[12:40:38] <CapnKernel> I'd have to get up to check :-)
[12:40:38] <Tom_itx> and maybe the nxp chip
[12:40:46] <CapnKernel> It's a unit you gave Dean about two years ago.
[12:40:50] <Tom_itx> oh
[12:40:56] <Tom_itx> well the nxp is the same
[12:40:56] <CapnKernel> Of course I brought it to China with me.
[12:41:02] <Tom_itx> the reset button may be different
[12:41:16] <Tom_itx> hang on i'll get you the current number for it
[12:41:48] <Tom_itx> KMR221NG LFS
[12:41:57] <Tom_itx> C&K components
[12:42:10] <Tom_itx> SPST-NO
[12:42:42] <Tom_itx> iirc the contacts are across the sides instead of the ends
[12:42:49] <Tom_itx> backward from my previous switch
[12:43:10] <Tom_itx> 771-GTL2003PW-T
[12:43:13] <Tom_itx> nxp
[12:44:25] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel, i posted the published rev on my site so you can tell me what you have
[12:44:53] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[12:44:57] <Tom_itx> just below the first 2 pics
[12:45:18] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: You just want me to get up, don't you! :-)
[12:45:25] <Tom_itx> naw
[12:45:45] <Tom_itx> i just figured it'd be hand to post all the revs
[12:45:52] <Tom_itx> handy*
[12:47:28] <abcminiuser_> Tom_itx, it's an original prototype
[12:47:31] <abcminiuser_> Unboxed
[12:47:43] <abcminiuser_> CapnKernel, and out of date, in terms of firmware ;)
[12:47:56] <CapnKernel> Mine is a 1.1a
[12:48:11] <CapnKernel> RP1 is not fitted
[12:48:17] <Tom_itx> yeah you really should update the firmware
[12:48:21] <CapnKernel> I've never updated the firmware
[12:48:25] <TechIsCool> What are we talking about version number
[12:48:41] <Tom_itx> some off the wall programmer
[12:49:22] <abcminiuser_> CapnKernel, you should, there's been a LOT of fixes
[12:49:33] <abcminiuser_> You only need the new HEX file and either dfu-programmer or FLIP
[12:49:36] <Tom_itx> ALOT
[12:49:45] <Tom_itx> yeah the files are there also
[12:50:19] <CapnKernel> I've kind of.. got my hands full here
[12:50:39] <abcminiuser_> Still, the latest firmware fixes all kinds of minor/major issues
[12:50:40] <CapnKernel> Deep in startup mode trying to get my business of the ground :-(
[12:50:43] <Tom_itx> just letting you know
[12:50:50] <abcminiuser_> Like EEPROM programming on the MEGA8 devices
[12:50:52] <CapnKernel> Will it fix my love life problems?
[12:51:04] <Tom_itx> there's not fix for that
[12:51:17] * abcminiuser_ sexy showertime, back in 5
[12:51:21] * abcminiuser_ or 10
[12:51:26] <CapnKernel> My love life problem being that the love of my life is 7000km away :-)
[12:51:39] <mrfrenzy_> CapnKernel: may I ask a related manufacturing question?
[12:51:40] <CapnKernel> abcminiuser_: That's an improvement on 2 mins
[12:51:49] <CapnKernel> mrfrenzy_: Sure
[12:52:04] <mrfrenzy_> can you get printed or milled plastic signs made? for outside usage
[12:52:24] <mrfrenzy_> I'm going to be needing hundreds of roughly A4 sized signs
[12:52:33] <mrfrenzy_> all identical
[12:52:43] <OndraSter> "FRENZY'S PLACE!"
[12:52:45] <CapnKernel> It's probably easiest for me just to say no.
[12:53:21] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!415&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AD2JUhOZvWHkcaA
[12:53:22] <OndraSter> easy peasy
[12:53:30] <mrfrenzy_> If I was in china I'd see it as a business idea ;) we have a nice swedish place that does it all automatic, the customer just fills in text in a web form and the signs get milled
[12:53:40] <mrfrenzy_> could use some chinese competition, just like the pcb business
[12:54:01] <keenerd> mrfrenzy_: Shipping big chunks of plastic is expensive.
[12:54:28] <CapnKernel> OndraSter: Sweet!
[12:54:34] <OndraSter> yeah
[12:54:38] <OndraSter> over one hour to wire it all up lol
[12:54:45] <mrfrenzy_> they charge about as much for a chunk of plastic as seedstudio charge for the same size pcb, including shipping
[12:54:48] <CapnKernel> That's pretty quick
[12:54:56] <OndraSter> well just those red and green wires
[12:54:59] <OndraSter> so it is not that quick
[12:55:03] <keenerd> mrfrenzy_: Mt last order, shipping was 30% of the cost. And that was within the same country.
[12:55:12] <CapnKernel> Guys I really have to go. Tom, I'll get you a quote for the switches.
[12:55:27] <OndraSter> I have got here second board in the works, but I am trying out different approach... but it is worse I found out :(
[12:55:29] <OndraSter> bb CapnKernel
[12:55:45] <keenerd> mrfrenzy_: So what, you are making "signs" that are less than 20cm wide?
[12:56:53] <keenerd> Oooh. You are probably talking about interior signage. Yeah, that would be smaller than what I do ;-)
[12:57:21] <mrfrenzy_> keenerd: I'm talking signs that inform a property has an alarm system, from 5x5 to 25x20cm
[12:57:31] <mrfrenzy_> all exterior
[12:57:42] <mrfrenzy_> but also interior signs are interesting, since they are very expensive here
[12:57:49] <keenerd> Ah. I was thinking +1m sizes.
[12:58:06] <mrfrenzy_> I did say "around A4" ;)
[12:58:32] <mrfrenzy_> when you're making +1m stuff cost doesn't matter as much
[12:58:37] <keenerd> Sigh. Silly me missed that line.
[13:02:12] <Tom_itx> mrfrenzy_, make a silkscreeen and have at it
[13:02:20] <Tom_itx> pretty easy really
[13:05:36] <OndraSter> why are red/yellow/... aka non-green silkscreens more expensive?
[13:07:02] <mrfrenzy_> Tom_itx: you mean at a pcb fab, or at home?
[13:07:09] * abcminiuser_ back
[13:07:17] <dirty_d> its working pretty good, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYzEru5MlT8
[13:07:19] <mrfrenzy_> OndraSter: anything nonstandard is always more expensive
[13:07:22] <OndraSter> :/
[13:07:27] <OndraSter> why is red nonstandard?
[13:07:30] <OndraSter> Let's make it standard
[13:07:33] <dirty_d> abcminiuser_, hey how familiar are you with the xmega's pulse width capture?
[13:07:37] <mrfrenzy_> cause they started with green someday
[13:07:55] <mrfrenzy_> look at daves latest pcb video, his australian fab does red at no extra cost
[13:09:04] <OndraSter> yeah
[13:09:07] <TechIsCool> Abcminiuse: do you have the dragon 7.15 firmware that works?
[13:09:09] <abcminiuser_> dirty_d, I know it has it :)
[13:09:19] <abcminiuser_> dirty_d, what's the issue with it?
[13:09:25] <abcminiuser_> TechIsCool, youwah?
[13:10:00] <Tom_itx> mrfrenzy_, do it yourself
[13:10:26] <Tom_itx> mrfrenzy_, how big are they
[13:10:29] <TechIsCool> I cant get my dragon to 7.15 I have tried redownloaidnt the whole 5.1 studio and it does not work. I was curious if you knew where just the firmware ass
[13:10:42] <dirty_d> abcminiuser_, not really an issue, I just want to know that I'm right in assuming that in order to measure muliple pulse channels on one timer that the pulses must not overlap
[13:10:48] <TechIsCool> Sorry on a bad keyboard
[13:11:07] <dirty_d> abcminiuser_, im using 4 timers for 4 signal, because they may overlap
[13:13:08] <abcminiuser_> TechIsCool, Studio ships with just the latest firmware for each tool
[13:13:08] <mrfrenzy_> Tom_itx: around A4 size, and they must live outside for ten years
[13:13:19] <Tom_itx> so use good paint
[13:13:20] <abcminiuser_> Did you do a forced firmware upgrade in 5.1?
[13:13:38] <mrfrenzy_> are there any good tutorials for that?
[13:13:44] <abcminiuser_> dirty_d, sorry, don't know that one (gasp)
[13:13:49] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/silkscreen/screen_top.jpg
[13:13:54] <Tom_itx> i even made my own frame
[13:14:00] <mrfrenzy_> thanks, will look at it later
[13:14:07] <mrfrenzy_> currently in curses-mode only
[13:14:15] <TechIsCool> abcminiuser: Really can't type my bad my avr dragon has 7.e and I am trying to upgrade to 7.15 the firmware bundled with 5.1 studio does not work.
[13:15:09] <Tom_itx> mrfrenzy_, no turorial, just pics of what i did
[13:15:20] <dirty_d> abcminiuser_, no problem
[13:17:03] <abcminiuser_> TechIsCool, oh? Mine does -- what does it do
[13:17:19] <abcminiuser_> Doesn't work as in can't upgrade, or give an error when you try to use it, or something else?
[13:18:09] <dirty_d> hmm, i think the manual mixed up the description of how singed and unsinged mode or adc works
[13:18:13] <mrfrenzy_> pictures are always good
[13:18:15] <mrfrenzy_> later
[13:18:24] <dirty_d> it says in singed mode, the negative input is attache to ground
[13:18:36] <dirty_d> and in unsinged mode the negative input is attached to vref/2
[13:19:09] <dirty_d> doesnt that sound backward?
[13:19:43] <TechIsCool> abcminiuser: it just resets it and then says the firmware is upgraded but when you refresh its either the older version or unknown
[13:20:32] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser_, do you know the difference between ubuntu server and desktop?
[13:21:25] <abcminiuser_> Tom_itx, former lacks lots of packages by default
[13:21:30] <abcminiuser_> Just the bare minimum, no GUI
[13:21:44] <Tom_itx> server is stripped down?
[13:21:48] <TechIsCool> ^this
[13:22:09] <abcminiuser_> TechIsCool, hrm, I'll have to re-test that on Monday, but try a forced upgrade with it plugged into a different port
[13:22:11] <abcminiuser_> Tom_itx, yes
[13:22:43] <TechIsCool> Alright if not I will try it if not I willtalk to you Monday
[13:22:53] <jacekowski> Tom_itx: none
[13:22:58] <jacekowski> Tom_itx: different packages preinstalled
[13:23:05] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser_, i wonder how much different ubuntu is over debian
[13:23:18] <jacekowski> Tom_itx: only common thing is package manager
[13:23:31] <TechIsCool> Alright g2g
[13:23:50] <abcminiuser_> Tom_itx, it's got a super crappy UI, that's different
[13:24:05] <Tom_itx> which?
[13:24:30] <Tom_itx> i'm guessin you favor ubuntu :)
[13:24:59] <Tom_itx> can you install a root with the iso install? instead of all the sudo stuff
[13:25:11] <Landon> root is there on ubuntu
[13:25:16] <Landon> it just doesn't have a password set by default
[13:25:26] <Tom_itx> well, the one i installed was part of the emc package so maybe it was left out there
[13:26:01] <Landon> I think too many things expect "root" to be a user, it should be there
[13:26:17] <Landon> `sudo passwd` and then get rid of that sudo nonsense :P
[14:15:59] * amee2k nudges CapnKernel
[14:22:11] <pingec> Does anyone know anything about USSD and on how to use it with AT commands on a gsm modem?
[14:41:19] <amee2k> CapnKernel: you still there by chance? i've got a question re: ordering parts
[14:41:38] <Tom_itx> i think he's out for now
[14:41:44] <amee2k> meh
[14:43:10] <Tom_itx> [12:55:12] <CapnKernel> Guys I really have to go.
[14:43:17] <amee2k> :/
[14:43:39] <Tom_itx> 2hrs ago
[14:43:57] <amee2k> i get it now :P
[14:51:10] <amee2k> whats the rule of thumb for current -> track width again?
[14:51:33] <OndraSter> "the bigger the better"?
[14:51:36] <OndraSter> :P
[14:52:31] <amee2k> ...
[15:09:56] <OndraSter> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419602_333095806742453_257102604341774_1021378_144714201_n.jpg
[15:25:07] <Steffann> Yeah, change the contrast of an image and make people racist
[15:25:26] <Steffann> Is that a girl anyway OndraSter ? :P
[15:25:34] <OndraSter> :P
[15:30:29] <Steffann> That's also an "when you see it you'll shit bricks"-image, OndraSter
[15:37:08] <abcminiuser_> Bwahaha
[15:37:19] <abcminiuser_> Everyone's seen the new OK Go video right?
[15:37:24] <abcminiuser_> Where they play the song with a car?
[15:46:50] <Roklobsta> abc: are you into AVR32 much?
[15:47:04] <amee2k> how many ounces is 35um copper plating again?
[15:48:06] <Roklobsta> google says 1 ounce/ft^2
[15:48:21] <amee2k> okay
[16:05:17] <dirty_d> is it a good idea to enable pull up or down on floating pins?
[16:05:31] <OndraSter> ye
[16:05:36] <OndraSter> unless you are going for power save
[16:10:12] <TechIsCool> does anyone else have a functioning avr dragon that they upgrade the firmware to 7.15 from studio?
[16:10:47] <Roklobsta> yes
[16:10:50] <Roklobsta> i did the other day
[16:10:55] <TechIsCool> and it worked?
[16:10:59] <Roklobsta> uh huh
[16:11:23] <TechIsCool> can you by chance run a md5 on the firmware?
[16:11:38] <Roklobsta> i had to as firmware for my jtag mkii-cn still needs to be made for 5.1
[16:11:52] <Tom_itx> :/
[16:12:24] <Roklobsta> tomitx says you should buy his widget
[16:12:38] <TechIsCool> what widget?
[16:14:27] <OndraSter> the thing is, with Tom's widget you can not debug, only program
[16:14:47] <Roklobsta> a88c8bf01e753730621545a8f98f22eb *dragon_fw.zip
[16:15:37] <Roklobsta> can you get it to flash with avrstudi 4.18/19?
[16:17:33] <TechIsCool> Roklobsta: I can I flashed from 6.15 to 6.e to 7.e but can't get the last one to flash
[16:17:57] <TechIsCool> I am about to go back to 5.0 and say screw it
[16:18:01] <Roklobsta> could it be an administrator issue?
[16:18:05] <TechIsCool> nope
[16:18:06] <Roklobsta> no 5 sucks
[16:18:29] <TechIsCool> lol
[16:18:48] <TechIsCool> how do you flash a different firmware from 4? I just see the update button and close
[16:18:51] <Roklobsta> 4.19 is fine too unless you are after all that VS kandy
[16:22:01] <TechIsCool> they have change the firmware structure between 4 and 5 so I can't use the old 4 firmware dat files
[16:23:44] <Roklobsta> ok i just did an upgrade with the tools->AVR Tools Firmware Upgrade. It found my dragon and then i clicked upgrade and it's alll good
[16:24:58] <Roklobsta> the markings on my dragon are on the under side A08-0396.D and on a sticker A09-0062/10 and S/N
[16:26:36] <TechIsCool> I think I just got it the gui is broken but a chinese website said to use the cli version
[16:27:23] <TechIsCool> yup the gui is broken on my computer not sure why but I got the firmware functioning via command line Thanks for the help Roklobsta
[16:27:43] <Roklobsta> is it on the root hub usb port or a hub?
[16:27:53] <Roklobsta> on other devices i have had issues with upgrades on a hub
[16:27:57] <Roklobsta> via a hub
[16:28:08] <Roklobsta> ok good at least it fixed.
[16:28:17] <Roklobsta> you can berate abcminiuser later.
[16:28:37] <TechIsCool> I made sure it was on my usb 2 stack not usb 3 and its plugged into motherboard so nope already thought that could have been an issue
[16:31:27] <TechIsCool> g2g thx everyone
[16:40:20] <Roklobsta> @avr32 is perpetually dead
[16:40:25] <Roklobsta> #avr32
[16:40:31] <Roklobsta> clearly it's not a popular part
[16:41:23] <OndraSter> #avr32 as channel or whole avr32 arch?
[16:42:00] <Richard_Cavell> LOL
[16:42:07] <Richard_Cavell> I prefer my microcontrollers old skool
[16:42:12] <OndraSter> 8bit :P
[16:51:59] <abcminiuser_> Holy hell, this is certainly one way to make a PCB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHvL1u1uOvY
[16:56:07] <OndraSter> bloody hell
[16:56:19] <OndraSter> "AVR FREAK"
[16:56:19] <OndraSter> literally lol
[17:06:10] <Tom_itx> masterpiece
[17:06:30] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser_, what a way to get your name out there
[17:07:13] <Steffann> nice board abcminiuser_
[17:07:34] <abcminiuser_> It's not mine
[17:07:36] <Tom_itx> i don't think that was his final project
[17:07:43] <abcminiuser_> Jesus, I'm not taking credit for THAT
[17:07:51] <Steffann> I know, but it's nice and uses lufa :P
[17:08:15] <Tom_itx> it says dean camera all over the screen
[17:08:44] <abcminiuser_> NNNNOOOOOO
[17:08:52] <Steffann> Yes
[17:09:05] <Tom_itx> Dean Camera LUFA Keyboard demo
[17:09:22] <Tom_itx> awesome
[17:09:53] <Tom_itx> well he got it working at least
[17:10:07] <Steffann> I can't blame the guy… he's from greece and greece is bankrupt :P
[17:12:19] <OndraSter> lol
[17:12:22] <OndraSter> yeah
[17:12:27] <OndraSter> they don't have even paper to write on!
[17:12:38] <OndraSter> I shouldn't have wasted it when printing something and instead send it there
[17:12:40] <OndraSter> as a charity!
[17:12:45] <amee2k> hmm... a world of greenies and no 24V power supply i can find specifies unloaded idle consumption >_<
[17:12:47] <OndraSter> it was TWO PAPERS I WASTED!
[17:16:41] <amee2k> well, one that isn't obscenely expensive anyway
[17:17:19] <Roklobsta> oh that video is fugly
[17:17:56] <amee2k> (and by that i mean /only/ expensive. otherwise it looks the same as the chinese 25$ ones)
[17:18:33] <Roklobsta> amee2k: do you want switch mode or linear?
[17:18:56] <amee2k> switch mode
[17:19:03] <Roklobsta> \
[17:19:11] <amee2k> and low light load consumption so i can leave it on all the time
[17:19:11] <Roklobsta> no i meant #avr32 is dead.
[17:19:17] <Roklobsta> no i meant #avr32 is dead.
[17:19:33] <amee2k> hhu?
[17:19:50] <Roklobsta> it seems the arch isn't popular either....
[17:20:18] <Roklobsta> my next big project is 32 bit with eth but I am leaning to coretextm3 rather than avr32
[17:20:25] <amee2k> the industrial heavy duty ones aren't rated for idle consumption because it doesn't matter
[17:20:50] <amee2k> and the chinese ones aren't rated because it probably sucks and even if they were i wouldn't believe the figures anyway
[17:21:32] <amee2k> Roklobsta:
[17:21:36] <Roklobsta> yoiu might be limited for choice anyway, and a mains power meter might not register an unloaded PSU
[17:21:37] <amee2k> err
[17:21:50] <amee2k> Roklobsta: ARM has gotten dirt cheap over the last few years
[17:22:08] <Roklobsta> yeah the STmicro m3/m4s looks nice and cheap
[17:22:21] <Roklobsta> some only 64 pin with eth, niiiice.
[17:22:53] <amee2k> i mean, you can get a professionally made dev board for like 20$ now, and if you use a breadboard adapter you can get as low as like 5$ or so for entry level
[17:23:07] <OndraSter> yeah
[17:23:11] <OndraSter> ARMs are now quite cool
[17:23:18] <OndraSter> but what is the cheapest usable UNIVERSAL JTAG?
[17:23:20] <Roklobsta> oh do you know of any boards with stmicro's m3/m4s?
[17:23:26] <Roklobsta> openocd
[17:23:29] <keenerd> Supposedly there is a DIP arm, but I don't think it is out yet.
[17:23:32] <OndraSter> you still need some external box
[17:23:34] <amee2k> if AVR8 or PIC doesn't cut it anymore i'd much rather move up to ARM than AVR32 tbh
[17:23:56] <Roklobsta> openocd works with the ftdi parts in jtag mode that i am using for SPI and avrdude
[17:24:03] <OndraSter> oh
[17:24:04] <OndraSter> not bad
[17:24:17] <amee2k> hmm wasn't there some jtag support for the buttpirate?
[17:24:56] <amee2k> also, i heard of something called SWD becoming popular for ISP in ARM circles
[17:25:00] <Roklobsta> so you can use insight and a $25 FTDI board for both AVRDUDE and gdb in arm! Sweet!
[17:25:33] <amee2k> nice
[17:26:20] <Roklobsta> i think i will make my own arm board. i'd like to try out kicad and a method OF PCB making using the toner in my samsung laser printer.
[17:27:43] <Roklobsta> i made double sided boards with dos protel as an undergrad a long time ago using UV etc. since then all my employers have happily let me use professonal PCB makers.
[17:27:53] <Roklobsta> besides, i lost a pair of jeans to etchant.
[17:28:06] <amee2k> hehe
[17:28:11] <Tom_itx> etch naked
[17:28:18] <keenerd> Samsung lasers are a little iffy for toner transfer.
[17:28:33] <Roklobsta> oh don't say that. i am set on using it...
[17:28:34] <amee2k> work jumpsuit is like 10$ at the hardware store
[17:28:44] <Tom_itx> keenerd, i have pretty good luck with mine
[17:28:55] <Roklobsta> yeah my old employer was a chaeap arse. i am surpsied the etch bath didn't electrocute me.
[17:28:57] <amee2k> also, <3 disposable gloves when using iron chloride based etchant
[17:29:21] <keenerd> Tom_itx: What model? I have a cheap 2525, and I've heard other have the same problem.
[17:29:29] <keenerd> *other people
[17:29:32] <Roklobsta> tomitx: do you use an iron or laminator to transfer the toner to pcb? I have a samsung ml1710
[17:30:05] <Tom_itx> iron
[17:30:23] <keenerd> Tom_itx: I would not be surprised if toner forumlation changed at some point either.
[17:30:30] <dirty_d> what the? therse is no wdt_disable for xmega
[17:30:30] <dirty_d> only wdt_enable
[17:30:41] <OndraSter> wdt_enable is macro?
[17:30:45] <dirty_d> yea
[17:31:00] <Roklobsta> the etch bath was a jury rigged bucket with a kettle element immersed (!) in it and the etchant was in an icecream container floating in the warm water. ecthant splashed into the bath and slowly the jug element got etched too.
[17:31:31] <Roklobsta> dumb old under graduate me accepted this as a fine setup.
[17:31:49] <OndraSter> eh
[17:32:33] <Roklobsta> and this was before earth leakage protection was mandatory.
[17:32:43] <keenerd> I dunno. I've been having really bad luck with smt and my sumsung. Might give UV a try.
[17:32:57] <amee2k> Roklobsta: i used to use small ceramic dessert bowls for etching, with a modified USB coffee mug warmer (modded to put out like 10W on a wall wart)
[17:33:17] <Roklobsta> my current toner is cheap clone.
[17:33:27] <amee2k> for larger boards i use the cheap rectangular ikea glass trays that cost like 6EUR or so
[17:33:28] <Roklobsta> seems to print nice and clear and dark on paper.
[17:33:35] <Tom_itx> keenerd, you gotta make darn sure the board is CLEAN
[17:33:37] <keenerd> I use two plastic trays and fill the outer with boiling water. Can't get much simpler.
[17:33:42] <Roklobsta> oh love ikea for hacker mods.
[17:33:48] <amee2k> they smaller ones they have are a perfect match for eurocard size (10x16cm)
[17:33:57] <Roklobsta> i am going to try the sponge in etchant method.
[17:34:09] <Roklobsta> i don't watnt to fsck wioth water baths.
[17:34:16] <keenerd> Tom_itx: How long do you spend cleaning per sq inch?
[17:34:32] <amee2k> i don't mind bath etching
[17:34:52] <Tom_itx> not very long
[17:34:56] <Roklobsta> tom_itx: what do you use to clean the board? fine steel wool? what cleaning agent?
[17:34:59] <Tom_itx> but i use acetone
[17:35:04] <amee2k> Roklobsta: i've been contemplating an etching tank that rinses the board with etchant instead of immersing it. any thoughts?
[17:35:13] <Tom_itx> steel wool leaves iron in the copper that will rust
[17:35:18] <Tom_itx> i use 3M pads first
[17:35:27] <Roklobsta> i saw a spray shower on hackaday recently
[17:35:28] <Tom_itx> and maybe some copper cleaner or etchant
[17:35:32] <Roklobsta> it also rinsed after
[17:35:38] <Tom_itx> then i rinse and clean with acetone
[17:35:45] <keenerd> Tom_itx: Last time I used acetone for at least 1 minute/sq in. I think my boards are clean.
[17:35:59] <Roklobsta> ok i have lots of experimenting to do
[17:36:26] <Roklobsta> how fine an etch can you make? 0603 pads?
[17:36:41] <Tom_itx> easy
[17:36:57] <keenerd> Tom_itx: UV has the bonus of being more easily repeatable if I need to make a second one-off board.
[17:37:09] <Roklobsta> tom: do you sponge/wipe etch or bath?
[17:37:33] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard2.jpg
[17:37:39] <Tom_itx> that's for a tiny10
[17:37:45] <Tom_itx> sot23-6
[17:37:59] <Roklobsta> doh my home squid proxy blocked :81
[17:38:23] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/etch_index.php
[17:38:25] <Tom_itx> that's my tank
[17:38:36] <Tom_itx> and a few board examples
[17:39:51] <keenerd> The bubbler is just to impress guests, right?
[17:40:18] <Roklobsta> amee2k: do you know of any cheap stmicro m3/m4 boards?
[17:40:53] <amee2k> Roklobsta: i don't know the versions, but the STM32 based Discovery boards seem to be popular and reasonably cheap
[17:41:05] <Roklobsta> ah no eth
[17:41:09] <Tom_itx> keenerd, no it keeps the pot stirred up
[17:41:28] <amee2k> a friend of mine is working on a 5$ ARM dev board
[17:42:12] <Roklobsta> squid begone.\
[17:42:30] <Roklobsta> oh that's nice and clean
[17:42:55] <keenerd> Tom_itx: I tease :-)
[17:43:28] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/cont_rev1top.jpg
[17:43:34] <Tom_itx> for a m168
[17:43:47] <Roklobsta> tom: do you make double sided
[17:43:47] <Roklobsta> ?
[17:43:52] <Roklobsta> yes you do
[17:43:53] <Roklobsta> ok
[17:44:20] <Roklobsta> how do you get registration?
[17:44:21] <keenerd> The ISP lines aren't shorting against the pins? Either that or you've got 2 mil clearance.
[17:44:28] <Tom_itx> no
[17:44:41] <Tom_itx> that board is in my toaster oven
[17:45:06] <Tom_itx> there is a thru hole under the chip too
[17:45:14] <keenerd> Other nice thing about UV, two sided boards are much easier.
[17:45:19] <OndraSter> yap
[17:45:23] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/oven_control1.jpg
[17:45:24] <OndraSter> but you need good UV source
[17:45:24] <Roklobsta> tom: how do you go about linign up both sides of the pcb mask?
[17:45:40] <keenerd> OndraSter: Bunch of LEDs don't cut it?
[17:45:43] <Tom_itx> drill a couple holes and use pins to align the paper
[17:45:48] <OndraSter> keenerd, well
[17:45:48] <Roklobsta> k
[17:45:53] <OndraSter> it is not as easy with LEDs
[17:46:00] <OndraSter> you need some high perfomance UV LEDs
[17:46:09] <OndraSter> to get decent exposure time
[17:46:15] <OndraSter> and also they have really small angle of light
[17:46:24] <OndraSter> so they need to be really close
[17:47:17] <keenerd> Does that matter as much if the transparency is face down?
[17:47:26] <OndraSter> don't think so
[17:56:44] <Roklobsta> tom: what iron setting do you use? cotton?
[17:57:32] <Tom_itx> damn hot
[17:57:44] <Roklobsta> max no steam.
[17:57:49] <Tom_itx> it also depends on the thickness of your paper
[17:58:05] <Roklobsta> what paper do you use?
[17:59:09] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/GG_photo_paper.jpg
[17:59:18] <Roklobsta> as an undergrad i would cut into A4 sheets that graphic artists transparancy paper and feed it through the laser and then use this to UV expose the film.
[17:59:31] <Tom_itx> got it from a dude in Au
[17:59:40] <Roklobsta> i was wondering if waxproof cooking paper might be good.
[17:59:51] <Tom_itx> try it
[18:00:03] <Tom_itx> lower heat setting or shorter iron time
[18:00:12] <Roklobsta> i think the stuff i use has silicone in it. stiucky tape sure falls right off it.
[18:00:19] <Tom_itx> i've tried all sorts of paper
[18:02:14] <Roklobsta> interesting
[18:33:34] <dirty_d> lol i got this thing reading out values by blinking an led, short blink is 0 long is 1
[18:33:43] <dirty_d> who needs an lcd
[18:37:14] <Casper> use serial port!
[18:55:44] <dirty_d> Casper, its for field programming
[18:56:02] <dirty_d> but the blinky thing is just there incase you need to check for whatever reason
[18:56:36] <dirty_d> hmm does bitwise and on a signed number behave weirdly?
[19:04:25] <wollw> dirty_d: it would just preserve the sign bit
[19:11:18] <TechIsCool> I am back again what does this mean "'Target voltage seems to be below operating range for this device family. Make sure the target is powered on and try again.' "
[19:11:55] <dirty_d> wollw, ok yea, it was somethinbg else that was messing it up
[19:13:54] <papo> hello
[19:14:33] <papo> I am wondering about the difference between the AT90USB162-16AU and the AT90USB162-16AUR. I noted -AU vs. -AUR suffixed for different chips to and was not able to find anything about that in the datasheet
[19:15:01] <papo> also, the table I found on atmel.com shows the same properties for both
[19:15:25] <OndraSter> Reel packaging :)
[19:17:36] <papo> oh
[19:18:13] <papo> OndraSter: OK than you very much... how did you figure that out? (Just for me to improve my ability to find such information)
[19:18:49] <OndraSter> just guessing :D
[19:18:57] <OndraSter> it is quite common to use R for reel
[19:19:01] <OndraSter> tape & reel
[19:19:15] <OndraSter> you can actually check packaging
[19:19:18] <OndraSter> in the end of datasheet
[19:19:23] <OndraSter> it should be in there
[19:19:26] <wollw> I think there's an avr application note somewhere that explains the product ids
[19:19:34] <wollw> OndraSter: It's not, I just checked
[19:19:46] <OndraSter> it's not reel or it's not in the ds?
[19:19:53] <wollw> not in the ds
[19:19:56] <OndraSter> ah
[19:20:01] <wollw> at least the place i would expect to find it
[19:20:04] <OndraSter> well, try searching for the app note then :)
[19:20:13] <papo> yeah I actually did check the data sheet
[19:25:05] <OndraSter> gn
[19:26:33] <papo> cya and thank you
[19:28:50] <wollw> papo: I know I found the answer to your question before when I was wondering it myself but I'm having trouble finding it again.
[19:29:00] <wollw> I'm still looking though.
[19:29:25] <papo> thank you... I am currently going through the list of application notes on atmel's at90usb162 site
[19:30:04] <papo> the confidence that I don't really have to care about that suffix increases with my desire to know as well as with the list of application notes that I want to read...
[19:30:32] <wollw> heh, yeah
[19:35:20] <papo> hrm did not find anything :(
[19:35:37] <wollw> I think I'm getting closer
[19:36:33] <papo> wollw: what do you think about this? http://www.ineltek.com/eolpcnpdfs/SC103602.pdf
[19:36:59] <wollw> well it mentions the R suffix
[19:37:41] <papo> yep but I am not sure whether they talk about the R I am currently looking at...
[19:38:36] <Casper> interresting....
[19:38:42] <Casper> not in the datasheet...
[19:38:49] <wollw> http://www.datasheets.org.uk/indexdl/Datasheet-020/DSA00359339.pdf
[19:38:55] <wollw> not sure if that url will work
[19:39:03] <wollw> that's what i found before
[19:39:13] <wollw> i think
[19:39:24] <wollw> doesn't look too helpful though
[19:41:18] <Casper> but I'm sure it's the packaging
[19:41:27] <papo> hm
[19:41:28] <Casper> ammopack vs reel or alike
[19:41:49] <papo> but both are TQFP
[19:41:53] <papo> ah that kind of packaging
[19:42:53] <papo> hm yeah looks most likely to me too, just weird that there is no note about it anywhere apparently
[19:43:06] <Casper> probably there is one somewhere
[19:43:12] <Casper> just burried
[19:43:39] <papo> yeah
[19:44:31] <papo> digikey actually lists: (no suffix): tray, RTR: Tape & Reel, RCT: Cut tape
[19:44:45] <papo> so I guess all of you were right :)
[19:49:51] <wollw> ah ha
[19:49:59] <wollw> take a look at the atmega328p datasheet
[19:50:22] <wollw> under ordering information
[19:50:35] <Casper> wollw: it's there?
[19:50:39] <wollw> yeah
[19:50:39] <Casper> I didn't saw it too
[19:50:52] <wollw> it's not in the datasheet for the chip you're looking at
[19:51:24] <Casper> see, it's not in the datasheet
[19:51:27] <Casper> we're not blind then
[19:51:55] <Tom_itx> the data sheets are never wrong, after all they are proof read by non english speaking monkeys
[19:53:36] <wollw> Tom_itx: USPS missent my package yesterday apparently or it would have gotten here yesterday :|
[19:53:49] <wollw> so it should get here next week i suppose
[19:53:54] <Tom_itx> i figured monday actually
[19:54:16] <wollw> tracking info said to expect it yesterday but they sent it to some other city
[19:54:21] <Tom_itx> i think it's about 4 days to you
[19:54:26] <Tom_itx> hmm
[19:54:27] <Tom_itx> bugger
[20:03:28] <papo> wollw: I am still a bit confused, though
[20:03:57] <papo> wollw: Mouser apparently gives me a quote for one single -AUR part
[20:04:24] <papo> what do I get if I order this? One reel with a single device on the reel or what?
[20:05:55] <wollw> papo: it seems to me the difference is that you can order a reel with the AUR part
[20:06:00] <wollw> and you can't with the AU
[20:06:05] <wollw> other than that I don't see a difference
[20:06:17] <wollw> you would have to ask mouser
[20:06:21] <papo> good point
[20:06:48] <papo> but I sort of don't want the reel anyway :)
[20:08:15] <wollw> papo: not sure about the AU vs AUR but when I've ordered the ATTINY10-TSHR they've come as a cut piece of tape
[20:08:50] <wollw> not sure how they package smd parts if they don't come as cut tape though
[20:09:15] <papo> oh wait!
[20:09:47] <papo> now that you mention, the ones I ordered already came in some sort of card box
[20:10:13] <papo> or cardboard box or whatever you call that... didn't order from mouser though
[20:11:24] <papo> and apparently I ordered AU
[20:13:30] <Roklobsta> tom: once you mad the boards how do you protect the copper? plating or solder or a spray?
[20:13:32] <papo> maybe the guys at mouser send you these boxes if you order AU and cut from the reel if you order small quantities for AUR and send you the stuff on a real of you order the amount that fits on the reel, no idea. But I'll definitely go with the AU again... thank you
[20:14:15] <wollw> papo: pretty sure that's the case, no problem
[20:14:19] <Tom_itx> Roklobsta, most of the ones i hand make are just for testing things so i'm not that worried about it. if i have a keeper i generally have a board house make em up
[20:14:30] <Tom_itx> you could 'tin' the traces with solder
[20:14:37] <Tom_itx> or get the actual tin stuff
[20:14:43] <Tom_itx> i don't care for it myself
[20:14:47] <Roklobsta> oh ok. i was just looking at gold plating solutions. 100ml = $99.
[20:14:58] <Tom_itx> hardly worth it
[20:15:02] <Roklobsta> no
[20:15:08] <Roklobsta> maybe at $40
[20:15:26] <Tom_itx> they make a tin process you can do
[20:15:39] <Roklobsta> oh why don't you like it?
[20:15:50] <Tom_itx> just more chemicals to have around
[20:16:06] <Tom_itx> and like i said, most of mine are just for test anyway
[20:17:03] <Roklobsta> hmm tin is $30
[20:17:40] <Roklobsta> yeah quick turnaround for dev.
[20:17:43] <Tom_itx> example
[20:17:48] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/board3.jpg
[20:17:50] <Tom_itx> test board
[20:18:00] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/5v_switcher.jpg
[20:18:02] <Tom_itx> finished
[20:18:38] <Roklobsta> nice
[20:19:23] <Tom_itx> RTC test board: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/RTC3.jpg
[20:35:17] <Roklobsta> what's it all for?
[20:35:27] <Roklobsta> these little projects? what do you do with them/
[20:35:41] <Tom_itx> learning
[20:39:30] <papo> wait a sec... Tom_itx? Is it possible that I have one of your programmers? In a blue translucent box?
[20:39:41] <Tom_itx> yup
[20:40:10] <papo> ah that was you then... want to let you know that this thing works so nicely that my co-workers regularly steal it from my desk, thank you
[20:40:26] <Tom_itx> just tell them to get their own :)
[20:40:44] <papo> :-)
[20:41:02] <Tom_itx> i'm nearly out of blue ones right now though
[20:41:12] <Tom_itx> waiting on a part i'm out of
[20:41:36] <Tom_itx> got a new batch of the open ones though
[20:41:55] <Tom_itx> i kinda like them better myself
[20:42:28] <Tom_itx> the box is nice for mobile work
[20:52:41] <Tom_itx> papo, where are you located?
[20:53:39] <kmnnmz> Does anyone have good suggestions for reference material for programming an Atmega 328 with the AVR dragon
[20:53:42] <papo> Tom_itx: Switzerland
[20:53:44] <kmnnmz> I got mine as a present
[20:53:54] <kmnnmz> I have messed with Arduino - but not standalone av
[20:53:55] <kmnnmz> r
[20:54:03] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz it's not hard
[20:54:33] <Tom_itx> have you used the dragon before?
[20:54:39] <CapnKernel> Landon: sudo's main purpose in life is in the making of sandwiches
[20:54:56] <kmnnmz> Tom_itx - nope. I literally just got it today
[20:55:01] <CapnKernel> amee2k: Hi, I'm back
[20:55:09] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, ok
[20:55:20] <Tom_itx> are you planning to use windows or linux?
[20:55:45] <kmnnmz> Windows for now
[20:55:50] <kmnnmz> I installed avr studio 4.19
[20:55:54] <Tom_itx> good
[20:55:54] <kmnnmz> and installed the usb driver
[20:55:58] <Tom_itx> stick with that version
[20:56:14] <Tom_itx> be careful with the dragon though as it isn't buffered
[20:56:14] <kmnnmz> So I am good there. Now I am looking up what connections I need to make to the avr on the bread board
[20:56:24] <kmnnmz> buffered?
[20:56:31] <Tom_itx> yeah hang on..
[20:56:37] <Tom_itx> it's not a big concern
[20:56:49] <Tom_itx> just wanna be careful not to short stuff
[20:57:02] <kmnnmz> Gotcha
[20:57:29] <kmnnmz> I found this picture for converting 6 pin to 10 pin. (I am using a cable from Sparkfun's tiny avr programmer) http://www.tupianguanjia.com/bin/3455/avrisp2/avr_isp.jpg
[20:57:49] <vectory> buffered as in schmidt trigger?
[20:57:53] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/pdf/atmel/dragonhide.pdf
[20:57:55] <Tom_itx> read that
[20:58:00] <Tom_itx> about the buffering
[20:58:20] <kmnnmz> Alright
[20:58:26] <Tom_itx> mine isn't buffered either and i've had it for a long time
[20:58:27] <kmnnmz> Will this tutorial work for me
[20:58:27] <kmnnmz> http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Standalone
[20:58:32] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: I use KiCad. When you're up for it, come over to #kicad and I'll help you.
[20:58:51] <Tom_itx> ok here: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/mega168_howto_main_index.php
[20:58:55] <Tom_itx> that will help you get started
[20:58:56] <Roklobsta> #capnkernel: sweet
[20:59:27] <Tom_itx> 6 to 10 pinouts are listed there as well
[20:59:43] <Tom_itx> i'd recomend using the 6pin on your projects
[20:59:50] <Tom_itx> the 10 pin is their original pinout
[21:00:35] <kmnnmz> Awesome thanks. Also, will I need decoupling caps if I use the 5v from an arduino ?
[21:00:53] <Tom_itx> i just made some cables for mine: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/dragon/dragon1.jpg
[21:01:44] <Tom_itx> another thing is if you need to power the target from the dragon, the isp isn't powered unless you wire it up
[21:02:08] <Tom_itx> there's a separate header for +5 and GND
[21:02:27] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/dragon/dragon3a.jpg
[21:02:31] <Tom_itx> shown there
[21:02:51] <Tom_itx> my board is old and may be slightly different than yours
[21:03:31] <kmnnmz> So I need to use those even to program it?
[21:03:54] <Tom_itx> umm, if the target is powered you may not
[21:04:10] <Tom_itx> i'd at least use gnd or test to make sure the GND on the isp header is connected
[21:04:22] <Tom_itx> it's been a while since i used mine and i forget
[21:05:08] <kmnnmz> Hmm im sorry but I am a little confused now. I though I could use only the connections from the ISP header and program it fine.
[21:05:13] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: While we're on the topic of home-etched PCBs, here's my guide: http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
[21:05:22] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, you should be able to
[21:05:25] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: What city are you in?
[21:05:57] <Roklobsta> w'bool
[21:06:27] <Roklobsta> you?
[21:06:30] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, for example if you had a chip breadboarded like in my example, you may want to power it from the dragon to program it so you wouldn't need an external power source
[21:06:45] <CapnKernel> In: Shenzhen, China. From: Melbs
[21:06:58] <Roklobsta> what's the business you are trying to start?
[21:07:18] <Tom_itx> CapnKernel, i bet they love your accent
[21:07:21] <CapnKernel> Shenzhen has the world's largest electronics market
[21:07:30] <kmnnmz> Ok if I want to do that I have to have another cable for those headers?
[21:07:31] <iR0b0t1> Like... parts?
[21:07:49] <CapnKernel> I drop the Aussie accent. I have no wish to inflict another Dave Jones or Steve Irwin on the world :-)
[21:07:58] <Tom_itx> hah
[21:08:04] <Roklobsta> capn: are you trying to make things or find parts to sell outside of .cn?
[21:08:08] <CapnKernel> In Australia, I'm often asked if I'm British
[21:08:18] <CapnKernel> Roklobsta: The latter
[21:08:25] <Roklobsta> oh, URL?
[21:08:28] <CapnKernel> What I really want to do is save people time.
[21:08:35] <iR0b0t1> No, you want to make money.
[21:08:54] <CapnKernel> I need to look after my family, but apart from that, I don't really care.
[21:08:59] <Roklobsta> good coz I am gonna need parts soon.
[21:09:02] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, for example i powered this board from the dragon to program some chips: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/attiny2313/attiny7.jpg
[21:09:03] <CapnKernel> Money doesn't interest me. Hacking does.
[21:09:04] <iR0b0t1> YOU DIRTY CAPITALIST
[21:09:13] <iR0b0t1> YOU LIE
[21:09:17] <Roklobsta> filthy money grubber.
[21:09:21] <CapnKernel> iR0b0t1: You're very funny :-)
[21:09:24] <Roklobsta> get me some cheap cheap cheap parts.
[21:09:41] <Roklobsta> i don't care if it means polluting chinese rivers and air.
[21:09:50] <Roklobsta> i want cheap. yesterday.
[21:09:57] <CapnKernel> http://www.hackvana.com/ but don't get your hopes up, there are bugger-all parts on it so far.
[21:10:09] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, you can see the extra power wires i ran there
[21:10:20] <CapnKernel> Most people are emailing me their wishlist, and I find them and do a quote and they say "yes please" and I ship it to them :-)
[21:10:27] <kmnnmz> Those are like wires from a button panel ona pc
[21:10:30] <CapnKernel> And I'm now getting PCBs done.
[21:10:47] <Roklobsta> ok well if i need 2n2222's you da man
[21:10:48] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, could be but i made them up myself
[21:11:03] <kmnnmz> Alright
[21:11:12] <Tom_itx> same plug
[21:11:12] <CapnKernel> Ferdna said he wanted 2N2222s, so I grabbed some :-)
[21:11:47] <Tom_itx> you take written I O U's?
[21:12:54] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: From you I probably would, as you're a known quantity :-)
[21:13:07] <Tom_itx> damn i sure got somebody fooled
[21:13:38] <Roklobsta> capn: you get cheap chinese parts made, right? are they clones of stuff made outside of china or the real deal?
[21:13:53] <Tom_itx> they're the real chinese deal
[21:14:05] <Roklobsta> that's the worry
[21:14:15] <Roklobsta> hollow 2N2222s
[21:14:23] <CapnKernel> Because I have one of your programmers here, and if things didn't work out, I'd stick pogo pins through it, and you'd be writhing in voodoo-induced agony :-D :-D :-D
[21:14:33] <Roklobsta> electrolytics that dry out fast
[21:14:38] <Tom_itx> heh
[21:15:11] <Tom_itx> Roklobsta, if you're worried be selective what you get
[21:15:17] <wollw> I probably don't need to worry about noise from decoupling caps on an 8 bit avr circuit, right?
[21:15:17] <CapnKernel> Yeah
[21:15:25] <Tom_itx> until you're not worried
[21:15:40] <Tom_itx> wollw, what do you mean?
[21:15:47] <Tom_itx> you need caps by the chip
[21:15:49] <Roklobsta> when the power supplies stop catching fire then i know?
[21:15:52] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: I like your heuristic :-)
[21:16:26] <wollw> Tom_itx: the accepted answer here explains what I'm talking http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/15135/decoupling-caps-pcb-layout
[21:16:26] <CapnKernel> Why does no-one bag Seeed for the quality of their stuff?
[21:16:36] <Tom_itx> i do
[21:16:36] <wollw> About creating a local ground plane for decoupling caps
[21:16:44] <CapnKernel> I buy my stuff from exactly the same shops as Seeedstudio.
[21:16:57] <wollw> with one connection back to a main ground
[21:16:57] <Tom_itx> my last batch came from itead though
[21:17:01] <CapnKernel> Because the guys at Seeed were kind enough to give me introductions to their sellers.
[21:17:10] <Tom_itx> they improved their quality over the last ones i got from them
[21:19:01] <Tom_itx> and for now at least are cheaper than GP
[21:19:21] <CapnKernel> I was at the shop where Seeed get most of their passives the other day. The lady gave me a jar of sour plums. Hmm, my first supplier gift. Made me feel very happy.
[21:20:01] <Tom_itx> are they all pretty much in the same couple buildings?
[21:20:07] <Tom_itx> or spread out all over
[21:20:18] <CapnKernel> I took a group of 10 from the Hong Kong hackerspace on a tour through the marketplace the other day. They were all bugging out over the scale of things.
[21:20:26] <CapnKernel> It's city block after city block
[21:20:26] <kmnnmz> Hey Tom, I have it all hooked up now. So now I should be able to start avr studio and choose dragon as debugger right?
[21:20:31] <CapnKernel> Multi-story
[21:20:56] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, not if you have the isp wired, only programming
[21:21:04] <CapnKernel> Each city block, each building has its own characteristic
[21:21:04] <Tom_itx> you need the jtag wired up to do debugging
[21:21:11] <kmnnmz> Ah ok
[21:21:13] <Tom_itx> but yes, select the dragon in studio
[21:21:23] <Tom_itx> and then the target chip
[21:22:12] <CapnKernel> You know, if you drive a few hundred miles, you'll see the scenery and environment change several times. Nothing sudden, it changes gradually but surely. The markets here are like that. Walk between one building and the next and it doesn't seem too different, but do that a few times, and the last building isn't selling anything like the first building.
[21:22:15] <kmnnmz> Alright it says connect failed when I try to program it with basic program
[21:22:40] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, you do know isp programming will likely erase the arduino bootloader right?
[21:22:55] <kmnnmz> That's fine
[21:22:58] <Tom_itx> ok
[21:22:59] <kmnnmz> it is a crutch anyways
[21:23:07] <Tom_itx> check to see if you have target power
[21:23:09] <Tom_itx> in studio
[21:23:28] <kmnnmz> Ok let me figure out how to do that real quick
[21:23:53] <Tom_itx> hardware settings
[21:24:03] <Tom_itx> HW settings in the program dialog
[21:24:12] <Tom_itx> Vtarget
[21:25:18] <kmnnmz> Having a little trouble finding it
[21:25:28] <Tom_itx> lemme grab my dragon
[21:25:41] <kmnnmz> Thanks so much!
[21:28:20] * Tom_itx has an aww shit moment
[21:28:42] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: What's up?
[21:28:58] <Tom_itx> i forgot the isp on the dragon isn't powered
[21:29:02] <kmnnmz> hmm
[21:29:14] <Tom_itx> had to drag out my supply
[21:29:21] <kmnnmz> I have just the ISP header connections plugged into the atmega
[21:29:29] <Tom_itx> ok
[21:29:46] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, is your atmega powered by an external source?
[21:29:51] <kmnnmz> not currently
[21:29:58] <Tom_itx> thar's yer problem
[21:30:04] <kmnnmz> ah
[21:30:10] <Tom_itx> remember those extra wires in that pic?
[21:30:22] <kmnnmz> gotcha
[21:30:57] <kmnnmz> so.. do I replace the GND and VCC wires from the ISP header to VCC and ground from a power source
[21:30:57] <Tom_itx> don't get em reversed!
[21:31:12] <Tom_itx> just add a couple more
[21:31:16] <Tom_itx> don't replace anything
[21:31:35] <Tom_itx> i think they do that in case the target isn't 5v
[21:32:41] <kmnnmz> So leave the supply wires from the ISP header and put some power and ground wires inline with them>
[21:32:57] <Tom_itx> yeah for now
[21:33:25] <Tom_itx> is the chip still on the arduino board?
[21:34:03] <kmnnmz> Nope off of
[21:34:14] <kmnnmz> I am just using the 5v and gnd rail from it
[21:34:24] <kmnnmz> Is that ok
[21:34:25] <Tom_itx> there are likely more than one power and GND pin on the chip
[21:34:30] <Tom_itx> they ALL need to be connected
[21:35:06] <kmnnmz> like this right?
[21:35:06] <kmnnmz> http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduinobb_14.jpg
[21:35:20] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/mega168_led_sch.png
[21:35:27] <Tom_itx> that's the same pinout
[21:35:38] <Tom_itx> wait, you said you had a 328?
[21:36:28] <kmnnmz> Yea this one
[21:36:29] <kmnnmz> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10524
[21:36:45] <Tom_itx> then mine is the same pinout
[21:36:51] <kmnnmz> kk
[21:36:54] <Tom_itx> compare your board to my tutorial board
[21:37:43] <Tom_itx> 8 & 22? i think are GND
[21:38:33] <Tom_itx> 7 is VCC
[21:38:50] <Tom_itx> and you may also want to connect 20 to VCC
[21:38:53] <Tom_itx> it's AVCC
[21:38:57] <Tom_itx> for the adc converter
[21:39:50] <keenerd> CapnKernel: A very silly question, what is the OS breakdown over there?
[21:40:16] <CapnKernel> Windows everywhere
[21:41:15] <keenerd> There was an article writen by a grad student around a decade ago that said the same. Also that everyone had gobs of viruses.
[21:41:16] <CapnKernel> Lot of pirated Windows 7.
[21:41:39] <CapnKernel> Yes. The average Chinese person's PC is a veritable menagerie of contagion.
[21:42:05] <keenerd> And you?
[21:42:18] <CapnKernel> Chinese websites are typically written in flash with all sorts of pointless zooming and swishing graphics, and Chinese people are in the habit of clicking EVERYTHING.
[21:42:33] <CapnKernel> keenerd: Me re OS?
[21:42:38] <CapnKernel> I've run Linux since 1993.
[21:42:52] <keenerd> Ah cool :-)
[21:43:00] <CapnKernel> Because of their habit of clicking everything, they catch everything.
[21:43:03] <Tom_itx> what flavor?
[21:43:24] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, also you should bookmark this site: http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc/
[21:43:24] <keenerd> I was not going to pry that deep...
[21:43:39] <kmnnmz> done
[21:43:42] <Tom_itx> pry hell, i'm gonna open a can of worms
[21:43:48] <CapnKernel> All my Chinese friends (even in Australia) continually complain that the "internet is broken". It's usually because the hordes of malware on their PCs are having turf-wars.
[21:44:04] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, you caught up yet?
[21:44:16] <CapnKernel> I've run Red Hat since 1996, and now run Fedora.
[21:45:15] <kmnnmz> Almost I am making a bit neater
[21:45:27] <kmnnmz> few more sec
[21:46:13] <Tom_itx> 7 & 20 vcc, 8 & 22 gnd
[21:46:34] <keenerd> Sigh. Dear google, please add an option to limit searches by year.
[21:47:19] <kmnnmz> is one of the vcc have the resistor in your picture?
[21:47:49] <Tom_itx> red is vcc
[21:47:53] <Tom_itx> black is gnd
[21:47:56] <kmnnmz> does*
[21:48:05] <kmnnmz> then I only see one vcc in your example
[21:48:28] <Tom_itx> yeah i forgot to connect avcc in that pic
[21:48:51] <keenerd> CapnKernel: So Red Flag and similar efforts were just for show?
[21:49:25] <keenerd> Something has to be running on those cute little MIPS cpus china has been designing...
[21:49:26] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, i added it here but the pic isn't as clear: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/how_to/atmega168/adc_side.jpg
[21:49:43] <CapnKernel> I think that statement is so assumption riddled that I can't meaningfully address it.
[21:50:12] <keenerd> CapnKernel: My apologies.
[21:51:44] <CapnKernel> Not taken personally! It's just not that simple.
[21:51:54] <CapnKernel> Certainly the Chinese government is worried that in using proprietary software, they're at the mercy of whoever wrote the code, or paid for code to be inserted.
[21:51:54] <CapnKernel> But to the average punter on the street, they know even less about Linux than Westerners do.
[21:52:02] <keenerd> (Though wikipedia does suggest that its most productive use was for negotiations with microsoft.)
[21:52:08] <kmnnmz> k all connected
[21:52:33] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, in studio connect to the dragon
[21:52:34] <CapnKernel> Linux is something that university students play with, between fighting their MMORPGs under Windows, and some sort of thingy that runs on ADSL modems.
[21:52:50] <kmnnmz> grr still failed
[21:53:02] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, in the program dialog under MAIN sleect the chip from the dropdown menu
[21:53:18] <CapnKernel> keenerd: Yes, there's that too.
[21:53:38] <CapnKernel> However in this city there's a Linux Users Group with a vibrant community (mostly commercial users of Linux), and the hackerspace here has some really top hackers, who deeply understand what hacking is all about.
[21:53:47] <keenerd> CapnKernel: That always surprised me. So willing to clone half the internet, but not an OS.
[21:53:49] <kmnnmz> Not sure where that dialog is
[21:54:10] <kmnnmz> under debug
[21:54:16] <kmnnmz> I found select platform and chip
[21:54:23] <keenerd> CapnKernel: You have said your city is unlike any else in the country ;-)
[21:54:45] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, did you select ISP mode or JTAG?
[21:54:45] <CapnKernel> You have to understand that in this country, the motivation for most people is to make as much money as possible. There are so many niceties that we take for granted that just don't resonate here.
[21:55:07] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz ok let's back up a step
[21:55:12] <kmnnmz> I never saw that option. It just had me start a new project on startup
[21:55:15] <kmnnmz> kk
[21:55:26] <Tom_itx> the 2 icons that look like chips?
[21:55:30] <Tom_itx> click on the left one
[21:55:31] <CapnKernel> keenerd: I'm not sure where this comes from, but the Chinese way is to group together businesses doing the same thing.
[21:55:52] <CapnKernel> For example, there's a city in China that makes most of the world's socks. (Google for "sock city")
[21:56:06] <kmnnmz> Ok "Select an AVR Programmer" came up
[21:56:10] <kmnnmz> I selected dragon
[21:56:12] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, so do that
[21:56:17] <kmnnmz> and hit connect
[21:56:19] <CapnKernel> That happens at the micro level too: Your local neighbourhood will have a "hardware street", with dozens of little hardware shops next to each other.
[21:56:21] <Tom_itx> and select the chip from the dropdown now
[21:56:28] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, yes
[21:56:39] <CapnKernel> Around the corner from me is "civil engineering street", it's the go-to place if you want a theodolite.
[21:56:54] <CapnKernel> And Shenzhen is "electronics city"
[21:56:56] <kmnnmz> Ok it froze for a second and came back with connect failed
[21:57:15] <Tom_itx> check your usb cable
[21:57:24] <Tom_itx> you can't connect to the dragon?
[21:57:35] <kmnnmz> No
[21:57:41] <Tom_itx> try another port
[21:57:47] <Tom_itx> or another pc
[21:57:52] <Tom_itx> or another cable
[21:58:11] <vectory> CapnKernel: we dont have stores here, we have megastores
[21:58:17] <CapnKernel> Yes
[21:58:22] <vectory> like walmart or ikea
[21:58:30] <CapnKernel> Here they are microstores, and thousands of them. There are literally thousands of shops here selling capacitors.
[21:58:31] <vectory> or the hardware (mega)store
[21:58:44] <kmnnmz> cable is for sure good
[21:58:44] <vectory> i read that blog post of yours :)
[21:58:47] <CapnKernel> There's one store here which sells one value of one capacitor.
[21:58:49] <kmnnmz> switched port
[21:58:54] <kmnnmz> no other compuyer
[21:58:56] <CapnKernel> vectory: :-)
[21:59:39] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, do you know how to check the pc hardware settings?
[21:59:46] <vectory> but in fact its like many small stores assembled in a warehouse. thats still a warehouse witha a strong government
[21:59:51] <kmnnmz> yep
[21:59:56] <vectory> or management, w/e
[21:59:59] <kmnnmz> I am checking to see if it sees AVR dragon
[22:00:07] <kmnnmz> also making sure driver is installed correctly
[22:00:10] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, ok see if it's listed in the device manager under the jungo driver
[22:00:28] <keenerd> CapnKernel: Sounds like the monoproduct cities were something that popped up in the last 30 years.
[22:00:32] <Tom_itx> if not, fix that before continuing
[22:00:35] <CapnKernel> There's no government or organisational oversight on what gets sold where. It's not centrally planned or controlled.
[22:00:47] <kmnnmz> Yep I see it
[22:00:57] <CapnKernel> Yeah, at various scales, "monoproduct" is a good way to describe it.
[22:01:00] <vectory> CapnKernel: i would think there would be a level of controle, even if its mafia like
[22:01:26] <vectory> or just the one given the space for rent
[22:01:38] <CapnKernel> Business here is extremely non-transparent, it's not a question of see-a-price-and-buy-it
[22:01:49] <CapnKernel> It's about who you know, and who you reward.
[22:01:57] <CapnKernel> That goes for both business and government
[22:02:40] <CapnKernel> The system here can be described as "hyper-capitalism with a ruling system that accepts absolutely zero competition"
[22:03:22] <vectory> ruling as in self regulation, not top down government?
[22:03:43] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, ok
[22:03:47] <vectory> quite the opposite of socialism or communism
[22:03:56] <Tom_itx> kmnnmz, but studio says it can't find it?
[22:04:05] <kmnnmz> Yea
[22:04:12] <Tom_itx> hardly possible
[22:04:20] <Tom_itx> if it's in hardware
[22:04:28] <Tom_itx> try a reboot once
[22:04:31] <Tom_itx> who knows
[22:04:42] <vectory> CapnKernel: or at least opposite of planned economy
[22:05:20] <kmnnmz> alright brb
[22:06:40] <CapnKernel> There is only one rule here: "Don't challenge the party"
[22:07:07] <CapnKernel> You can do anything you want, have any kind of business, operate contrary to the law, it's all ok, except for if you break rule 1.
[22:07:55] <keenerd> Oh, I did not realize you were so close to Hong Kong. That must be fun :-)
[22:10:19] <CapnKernel> I live 400m from the HK border.
[22:10:27] <CapnKernel> But HK proper is 30km to the south.
[22:13:56] <vectory> isnt breaking the law equal to challenging the law giver?
[22:16:53] <CapnKernel> vectory: one doesn't imply the other
[22:17:21] <CapnKernel> Time for me to go guys.
[22:17:23] <Tom_itx> if kmnnmz returs tell him i had to go. i'll try and help him tomorrow
[22:33:17] * CapnKernel has just seen the ATmega32U2-covered-in-hot-glue vid someone posted last night.
[22:33:27] <CapnKernel> Terribly nice of the tractor factory to give him some time off!
[23:01:36] <keenerd> Anyone here ever play with the Atmel's AT86RF* radio units? Fun to work with?
[23:02:02] <Tom_itx> somebody else was messin with one here the other day
[23:02:24] <Tom_itx> are they spi interfaced?
[23:02:50] <Tom_itx> iirc he couldn't get spi working on it
[23:03:14] <keenerd> Yeah, it looks like they are all SPI.
[23:03:31] <Tom_itx> i don't know what the issue was
[23:14:16] <rue_house> CapnKernel, your our china link!
[23:14:58] <rue_house> oh I need to transfer this overload board too
[23:15:12] <rue_house> oooooh I just want a nice hot long shower
[23:21:09] <jadew> rue_house, ziph, thanks for your guidance, my power source is done
[23:22:22] <jadew> and it's not as noisy as I first expected while boxed, I think the only noise I get is from the environment and it's about 6-7mV, which is pretty good
[23:22:51] <ziph> jadew: The resonant frequency of that bypass capacitor set up you had was just a smidgen over 1MHz by the way.
[23:22:53] <jadew> I think the 20mV noise I was getting while testing it was because of the aligator clips
[23:23:33] <jadew> hmm, that high?
[23:23:39] <ziph> jadew: That's low.
[23:24:13] <ziph> jadew: Above that frequency instead of becoming more like a short to the noise it starts to become open.
[23:24:40] <jadew> I see
[23:27:08] <jadew> this is what I ended up with: http://imagebin.org/200850
[23:27:17] <ziph> Have a look at this random image from Google: http://ez.analog.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/102-1420-6-2492/Capacitor+Value+as+coupling+and+de-coupling+capacitor.jpg
[23:27:51] <jadew> interresting
[23:28:11] <ziph> Wait, those are terrible caps. :)
[23:28:46] <ziph> These are more typical chip caps:
[23:28:46] <ziph> http://www.maxim-ic.com/images/appnotes/3630/3630Fig03.gif
[23:29:19] <ziph> See how the 0.1uF is most like a short at 100MHz and then goes up at higher frequencies?
[23:29:30] <ziph> Yours had to lowest point at 1MHz. :)
[23:30:18] <jadew> yeah, so I guess 0.1uF is best for AVR work
[23:30:46] <ziph> Yeah,
[23:31:20] <ziph> You can put two in but for maximum value they need to have separate traces.
[23:32:35] <ziph> And you can also put different values in rather than multiple values that are the same, but then you get anti-resonant peaks in the graph between the two resonances.
[23:33:33] <ziph> But the main thing is to make sure the loop between VCC, the cap and the GND is as small as possible.
[23:33:56] <jadew> yeah, that was a problem in my pcb layout
[23:34:06] <jadew> I used several wires to shorten the routes tho
[23:34:15] <jadew> I think that helped reduce the noise a lot
[23:35:38] <ziph> Yeap.
[23:35:47] <jadew> do you think padding the case with aluminum foil would shield it against external RF?
[23:36:06] <ziph> It isn't the proximity of the component that matters, it's the area of the loop that matters.
[23:36:31] <jadew> yeah, I won't make that mistake next time
[23:37:08] <ziph> Shielding can help, but there's two things you can do for RF that make more of a difference.
[23:37:30] <ziph> One is to make sure your signals are all close to their return grounds.
[23:37:39] <ziph> Otherwise you have a giant loop antenna.
[23:38:14] <ziph> The other is to put ferrite beads on all inputs with a shunt capacitor after them.
[23:38:37] <ziph> The bead becomes resistive at the RF frequencies and the cap becomes a short.
[23:38:52] <ziph> You basically end up with an RF filter for the RF.
[23:39:02] <ziph> Which kills anything your external cables might pick up.
[23:39:21] <jadew> interresting
[23:40:34] <ziph> Then there's all kinds of things to do on the inputs to avoid common mode noise ending up as differential noise, but those are specific to your inputs.
[23:42:53] <ziph> You basically end up with an RC filter for the RF I mean.
[23:43:06] <ziph> The ferrite is the R and the C is the C.
[23:43:26] <ziph> Or you can use ESD diodes with an intentionally high capacitance (100pF-500pF)
[23:43:28] <jadew> I'll have to play with that a bit
[23:43:34] <jadew> to see what it can be achieved
[23:43:43] <ziph> Then you get RF suppression plus ESD protection.
[23:44:08] <ziph> Yeah, I have one board that does audio that can sit next to an antenna putting out 100W happily, out of its case.
[23:44:31] <jadew> nice
[23:45:38] <ziph> Even you digital signals can have problems though; if you've got large loops on any of your signals they will pick up RF and nearby ESD's.
[23:46:12] <ziph> Even a fairly small loop on a reset line with a high-Z pull up can cause it to be vulnerable to resets from air discharge ESD.
[23:46:30] <ziph> So it isn't just the high frequency signals you have to worry about.
[23:47:29] <jadew> I did notice some noise on the digital signals, but I think that was comming from the crystal