#avr | Logs for 2012-02-15

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[00:37:04] * rue_more tries to use the scroll wheel to make the chat program 'zoom out'
[00:37:13] * rue_more goes back to his eagle schematic
[00:44:22] <Kevin`> rue_more: haha
[01:33:46] <theBear> heh
[03:13:44] <RikusW> hi vectory_
[03:14:36] <RikusW> vectory_: I've added a new HVPP circuit on my stk500 page
[03:20:52] <RikusW> hi scuzzy
[03:22:08] <scuzzy> yo
[03:22:10] <scuzzy> long time dude
[03:22:36] <RikusW> yeah
[03:22:56] <RikusW> finally made my own pcb :)
[03:23:38] <RikusW> though 10mil tracks have a tendency to become to thin or gone altogether :|
[03:24:33] <RikusW> here is the artwork http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home/stk500
[03:26:32] <RikusW> rue_more: got the dW update on email ?
[03:36:06] <scuzzy> RikusW: Page not found
[03:36:06] <scuzzy> We're sorry, but we were unable to locate the page you requested.
[03:36:57] <RikusW> http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home
[03:37:01] <RikusW> and click on the stk500 link ?
[03:37:08] <RikusW> ugh
[03:38:03] <RikusW> I used DXP for that, but am seriously considering using something else....
[03:38:11] <RikusW> DXP is a hassle...
[03:40:00] <scuzzy> RikusW: what software did you use?
[03:40:16] <RikusW> DXP
[03:40:20] <RikusW> 2004
[03:40:41] <RikusW> but its somewhat buggy and very user unfriendly
[03:41:01] <RikusW> and lots of little annoyances
[03:41:12] <amee2k> anyone want a windows ME cd key?
[03:41:17] <RikusW> like not updating the footprint on the pcb when its changed...
[03:41:30] <RikusW> does anyone want ME ;)
[03:41:36] <amee2k> its legal... i'm about to throw out a case that has a license sticker on the back
[03:41:42] <amee2k> RikusW: dunno, collectors maybe?
[03:41:50] <RikusW> maybe
[03:42:01] <RikusW> I have a legal 95 key
[03:42:12] <RikusW> and a much used 98 key
[03:42:19] <amee2k> i've got a legal 98 key
[03:42:24] <RikusW> and XP too...
[03:42:32] <amee2k> and i think a legal xp home key too on my laptop
[03:42:40] <amee2k> but thats about it
[03:42:49] <RikusW> but I mostly use debian
[03:42:57] <amee2k> yeah
[03:43:07] <RikusW> only boot to XP to use AS4 or DXP
[03:43:07] <amee2k> well, actually debian derivatives on my end
[03:43:15] <RikusW> ubuntu ?
[03:43:22] <amee2k> ubuntu while it was still good, now mostly mint
[03:43:44] <RikusW> ubuntu is too much windows like....
[03:43:49] <amee2k> debian is bit of a hassle to set up imo
[03:43:51] <RikusW> it hides too much...
[03:44:14] <RikusW> maybe, but I got mine setup fine :)
[03:44:16] <amee2k> well, like 3 years ago it was like debian with binary drivers
[03:44:30] <amee2k> and without all the license wanking
[03:44:36] <amee2k> which i found was pretty hot
[03:44:56] <RikusW> I guess I might use mint when I get a new PC sometime
[03:45:05] <amee2k> like, the first linux that "just works"
[03:45:11] <RikusW> I don't like messing around with drivers too much
[03:45:18] <RikusW> that would be nice
[03:45:26] <amee2k> and otherwise it was pretty much the same as debian so all the deb moves worked for it too
[03:45:59] <amee2k> now i think they're more like a poor man's macos really
[03:46:28] <amee2k> and the "just works" thing doesn't work anymore either... none of the 10.x install CDs even booted on any of my systems. kernel panic :P
[03:46:32] <RikusW> I had _much_ less trouble with my debian than windows...
[03:46:39] <amee2k> ...
[03:46:47] <amee2k> thats not really an art lol
[03:46:51] <scuzzy> RikusW: You've tried eagle?
[03:46:57] <RikusW> my install is a few years old ;)
[03:47:04] <amee2k> everything is less trouble than windows
[03:47:12] <amee2k> well, except for chicks maybe
[03:47:17] <RikusW> scuzzy: I'll have a look at that
[03:47:26] <RikusW> scuzzy: is it free ?
[03:47:30] <amee2k> semi-free
[03:47:43] <amee2k> there is a freeware license but it has limited board size
[03:47:45] <scuzzy> semi
[03:47:46] <scuzzy> it's not bad
[03:47:57] * Landon was just starting to play around with eagle
[03:47:57] <RikusW> how limited ?
[03:47:57] <scuzzy> I just haven't tried anything else
[03:48:01] <Landon> glad to hear it's not universally hated
[03:48:01] <amee2k> and last time i tried it, it would spontaneously decide not to read any of your files one morning
[03:48:03] <scuzzy> so, my experience is limited
[03:48:07] <RikusW> 5x5cm ?
[03:48:11] <Landon> something like that
[03:48:11] <scuzzy> yeah, that's fine
[03:48:13] <amee2k> RikusW: like 8x10cm or so
[03:48:13] <Landon> 10x8 maybe
[03:48:16] <RikusW> limit on via's / holes /
[03:48:17] <RikusW> ?
[03:48:20] <scuzzy> no
[03:48:23] <Landon> just board size
[03:48:23] <amee2k> nothing really useful anyway
[03:48:25] <scuzzy> only on board size
[03:48:34] <RikusW> hmm
[03:48:42] <amee2k> schematic editor has some limitation too iirc but i don
[03:48:46] <amee2k> 't remember the figures
[03:48:54] <RikusW> my DXP is "free" :-/
[03:49:13] <amee2k> RikusW: cracking it is a bitch because it stores your license detail in every file you make
[03:49:17] <Landon> my only hesitation about eagle is upgrading to hobbyist prohibits non commercial :(
[03:49:29] <amee2k> so the crack works for you, but noone else with a legal version can open your files
[03:49:29] <RikusW> for its pricetag it should have been much better...
[03:49:34] <RikusW> amee2k: I have a keygen
[03:50:07] <amee2k> RikusW: you couldn't use your crap to order boards or anything because noone else can read your files
[03:50:13] <amee2k> that renders it pretty useless imo
[03:50:25] <RikusW> I did use it to do my U2S board
[03:50:29] <RikusW> it exports gerber
[03:50:37] <amee2k> hmm interresting
[03:50:40] <mrfrenzy_> indeed, gerber files don't have any license crap
[03:51:03] <amee2k> well, i don't have any boards that small in mind anymore
[03:51:17] <RikusW> but now it wouldn't export a bmp again... last time it worked... :(
[03:51:33] <RikusW> its _very_ quirky
[03:51:35] <mrfrenzy_> png please
[03:51:38] <amee2k> and ever since i lost all my crap to its copy protection a year ago i'm not really interrested anymore
[03:52:08] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: I did convert it to png
[03:52:16] <RikusW> its like 2mb to 9kb :)
[03:52:22] <amee2k> and for the cheap seats... i was using the mother fucking freeware license for fucks sake
[03:52:34] <amee2k> and not some russian crack
[03:52:43] <mrfrenzy_> I prefer altium or proteus
[03:52:56] <RikusW> I've seen freepcb too, anyone use that yet ?
[03:53:03] <mrfrenzy_> altium is slightly better, but proteus rocks because you can do simulations on your actual schematic
[03:53:18] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: DXP is related to altium afaik
[03:53:27] <mrfrenzy_> so if it works in the simulator you can be sure you don't make any mistakes in the final circuit
[03:53:48] <mrfrenzy_> dxp?
[03:53:51] <RikusW> whats the pricetag on proteus ?
[03:54:20] <mrfrenzy_> well if you're into the cracking business, just as much as eagle ;)
[03:54:27] <mrfrenzy_> but they have a nice student license
[03:54:37] <mrfrenzy_> and the best part is you can simulate analog stuff and avr code at the same time
[03:54:45] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: DXP2004 aka Altium2004
[03:55:03] <RikusW> aka Protel2004
[03:55:07] <mrfrenzy_> aah yes
[03:55:15] <mrfrenzy_> protel is the old name for altium
[03:55:26] <RikusW> CircuitStudio 2004 / nVisage 2004 / Protel 2004 / Nexar 2004 / CAMtastic 2004
[03:56:09] <mrfrenzy_> but 2004 is like ten years ago, so forget that ;)
[03:56:39] <RikusW> I have it for "free" ;)
[03:56:58] <mrfrenzy_> there is a 2010 or 2011 version "out there"
[03:57:14] <RikusW> but can believe that such expensive stuff can be so annoying
[03:57:28] <mrfrenzy_> altium has a much steeper learning curve
[03:57:42] <RikusW> it does...
[03:57:53] <mrfrenzy_> proteus is rather quick to learn
[03:58:34] <mrfrenzy_> you make a schematic, load your avr code. run the simulator and see output on scopes/leds/lcd/whatever
[03:58:43] <mrfrenzy_> then you use that very same schematic to make a pcb
[03:58:44] <RikusW> very nice
[03:58:56] <mrfrenzy_> it can also do serial and ethernet in the simulator
[03:59:18] <mrfrenzy_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0eVczkmnQ
[03:59:19] <RikusW> at what kind of a price ?
[04:00:26] <mrfrenzy_> check their webpage
[04:00:30] <mrfrenzy_> I didn't pay for it...
[04:00:31] <mrfrenzy_> yet
[04:04:38] <RikusW> http://www.labcenter.com/index.cfm
[04:05:37] <raek> seems like proteus costs about €160 for the most minimal educational license. that's pretty close to the €140 for the hobbyist version of eagle (which is limited to 100x80mm, 1 schematic sheet, and 2 pcb layers)
[04:06:03] <raek> *160x100mm
[04:06:07] <mrfrenzy_> yeah, and proteus is unlimited
[04:06:11] <mrfrenzy_> and also has the simulation
[04:06:18] <mrfrenzy_> and I like the UI a lot better than eagle
[04:06:27] <raek> this price was without the simulaiton, though
[04:06:30] <mrfrenzy_> aah
[04:06:49] <mrfrenzy_> I wouldn't link anything illegal here, but you could search on something like "filecrop" for an evaluation
[04:07:29] <raek> €160 extra for just AVR simulation
[04:07:58] <amee2k> does protoeus work on linux?
[04:08:05] <mrfrenzy_> well if you are doing any professional work it's worth it, pays for itself in two days
[04:08:47] <amee2k> not really, at least not at the moment
[04:09:08] <raek> I'm still looking for a resonable hobbyist solution for boards bigger than 100x80...
[04:09:23] <amee2k> my hobby budget is pretty limited too so it paying itself off isn't the problem. saving up to buy it to begin with is however
[04:09:45] <Tom_itx> make it pay for itself
[04:09:59] <amee2k> raek: i'm using kicad at the moment which works fine. the user interface is a consistency mess though
[04:10:02] <amee2k> Tom_itx: how?
[04:10:06] <mrfrenzy_> I am the opinion that for hobby work you can run the eval versions, then when you start making money go out and buy license
[04:10:10] <Tom_itx> good q.
[04:10:33] <amee2k> even if i had something that i could sell, i wouldn't know where to start about it
[04:11:31] <raek> Eagle is a very strange piece of software. the only reasons I use it are that they provide a free of charge version that runs in linux, and that there is a big hobbyist community around it
[04:11:39] <amee2k> without a cheap way to make boards or have them made i wouldn't know how to put out any useful quantities for selling stuff either
[04:12:06] <raek> amee2k: ah, will probably check it out a bit more, then.
[04:12:20] <RikusW> making 100 or so pcb's becomes cost effective
[04:12:27] <RikusW> like 1Euro / pcb
[04:12:38] <RikusW> or 2
[04:12:42] <amee2k> if you have a credit card and order from china, yes
[04:13:01] <amee2k> CCs are ridiculously expensive here
[04:13:17] <RikusW> I have a local company that does it for 1E + about 50E setup fees
[04:13:20] <raek> I guess there is a reason there are tools for converting projects from Altium to Eagle, but not the reverse... :-)
[04:13:38] <RikusW> + some more for postage...
[04:13:41] <amee2k> RikusW: i wish we had that here :/
[04:13:48] <raek> sorry, Eagle to Altium of course
[04:13:51] <RikusW> ended up at about 2E / pcb
[04:14:04] <amee2k> RikusW: well, i can find someone to make me a single board for 51EUR fine :P
[04:14:10] <RikusW> amee2k: bosco.co.za
[04:14:11] <amee2k> but thats equally ridiculous
[04:14:24] <RikusW> amee2k: why not make it yourself ?
[04:15:11] <amee2k> RikusW: because my toner doesn't work for transferring and i haven't gotten around to trying phototransfer yet
[04:15:29] <RikusW> photoresist seems easy enough, but I'll need a bit more experience before I can get 10mil track consistenly...
[04:15:50] <RikusW> the oil on paper seems to work ok
[04:16:06] <amee2k> well, i've been wanting to give it a shot but haven't had the time yet
[04:16:39] <RikusW> used 15mil track on the next pcb, now its not even 10mil after etching :-P
[04:17:18] <RikusW> only had to repair 4 tracks...
[04:17:31] <amee2k> Edenvale is US, right?
[04:17:45] <RikusW> me ? no SA
[04:17:56] <amee2k> oh
[04:18:04] <RikusW> south africa
[04:18:32] <amee2k> well, i can't find a price list on that website
[04:19:04] <RikusW> setup is about 14E per mask
[04:19:14] <amee2k> and from what i've seen... US based means 90% they only accept credit card, other non-EU means 90% they only accept credit card backed paypal
[04:19:22] <RikusW> was 50E for 4 masks
[04:19:38] <RikusW> and 20E for 6 prototypes in 24h
[04:19:43] <amee2k> both of which is useless because a credit card would take up two months worth of hobby budget per year for me
[04:20:39] <RikusW> how about skrill/moneybookers ?
[04:20:47] <mrfrenzy_> one of my credit cards is free ;)
[04:20:56] <RikusW> don't know about shipping to EU...
[04:21:01] <RikusW> that might be expensive
[04:21:12] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: you're not living in germany, or you have a huge paycheck then
[04:21:41] <mrfrenzy_> correct, I'm in .se
[04:21:43] <amee2k> RikusW: i've never seen moneybookers offered as payment option anywhere yet
[04:21:47] <mrfrenzy_> we have discussed this a few times ;)
[04:21:55] <mrfrenzy_> amee2k: what about the paypal credit card?
[04:22:00] <RikusW> amee2k: so there is no such companies in Germany at all ?!
[04:22:03] <amee2k> i didn't start the discussion this time :P
[04:22:22] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: .se ?
[04:22:27] <RikusW> wheres that ?
[04:22:37] <mrfrenzy_> sweden
[04:22:42] <mrfrenzy_> not far from germany
[04:22:51] <amee2k> RikusW: credit cards here are all like 50+EUR/yr and no or a ridiculous free limit. provided they give you one at all if you're low-income like a student like me
[04:23:24] <amee2k> i sent applications for prepaid cards before and couldn't even get these lol
[04:23:47] * RikusW too :(
[04:23:58] <RikusW> my younger brother got a student cc...
[04:24:09] <amee2k> RikusW: and i'm looking for a board house for my current project and the best price i could find so far was 30EUR *per board* for three boards
[04:24:11] <RikusW> I had no success in obtaining one...
[04:24:25] <amee2k> i.e. 100+EUR for the whole order
[04:24:31] <RikusW> email bosco ?
[04:24:32] <amee2k> not including parts
[04:24:52] <RikusW> is that single layer ?
[04:24:54] <mrfrenzy_> have one of your parents get a prepaid cc that you can fill with money yourself?
[04:24:59] <amee2k> how much is shipping from SA to germany? :P
[04:25:15] <RikusW> 2.5E not insured...
[04:25:24] <RikusW> 14E insured
[04:25:35] <RikusW> not sure about weight
[04:26:11] <amee2k> RikusW: dual layer, 35um plating or thicker, probably 8+ mil and covered/plugged or solid copper vias, finish preferably soft tin coating. solder stop different for both sides, silkscreen single sided but none will do for the prototypes
[04:26:13] <RikusW> amee2k: single layer pcb is significantly cheaper
[04:26:33] <RikusW> and solder resist ?
[04:26:59] <amee2k> solder stop with different masks for both sides
[04:27:10] <RikusW> that would be 5 masks...
[04:27:19] <RikusW> setup fee will be expensive...
[04:27:19] <Tom_itx> wow, they make you pay for cc?
[04:27:22] <amee2k> something like that
[04:27:22] <mrfrenzy_> I tried ordering some amplifiers from za. paypal refused to send money there cause they think everyone in za is scammers
[04:27:24] <Tom_itx> i wouldn't have one if they did
[04:27:52] <amee2k> i'll need at least 2-3 boards to debug the multidrop bus code, and more than 5 wouldn't make sense i think
[04:28:24] <Tom_itx> laen sends 3 back when you order one
[04:29:11] <amee2k> Tom_itx: the only place where you can get stacks of free credit cards living under the bridge is the US
[04:29:33] <mrfrenzy_> in SE you can get atleast two free cards
[04:29:41] <mrfrenzy_> and the rest are about 20-30E per year
[04:30:09] <amee2k> as non-citizen with no to low regular income?
[04:30:31] <mrfrenzy_> you will ofcourse need some regular income
[04:30:36] <amee2k> RikusW: setup fee is really the killer about these boards i think. either explicitly or implicitly because the boardhouse includes it in the per-area price
[04:30:41] <mrfrenzy_> students get CCs aswell
[04:30:56] <amee2k> i'm a student which means i rarely have regular income
[04:31:22] <mrfrenzy_> here all students get regular income from the state
[04:31:36] <amee2k> lol i wish
[04:31:38] <mrfrenzy_> just about enough to pay for rent, food, books, and some booze
[04:31:47] <mrfrenzy_> geeks exchange the booze for electronic components
[04:31:53] <amee2k> government handing out free money for me would be awesome
[04:32:07] <mrfrenzy_> well it's not free, we have like the highest income tax in the world ;)
[04:32:18] <mrfrenzy_> it's called socialism :D
[04:32:26] <mrfrenzy_> even though we have a liberal government atm
[04:32:35] <amee2k> well, if i get the money for free, then i don't mind if they subtract income tax :P
[04:32:38] <RikusW> amee2k: indeed...
[04:33:00] <amee2k> RikusW: i could get 100+ of these boards for like 3-5EUR/board just fine
[04:33:20] <amee2k> actually i've found one place where ordering 20 was cheaper than ordering 10 from most other places
[04:34:00] <amee2k> but wtf do i want with 100 prototypes that i'll likely just throw away after developing the firmware anyway
[04:34:02] <mrfrenzy_> you should document this on some german wiki somewhere
[04:34:15] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: "document"?
[04:34:26] <mrfrenzy_> your research about board suppliers
[04:34:32] <mrfrenzy_> could save the next guy lots of time
[04:34:33] <RikusW> amee2k: how fine will your track be ?
[04:35:11] <RikusW> 10mil ?
[04:35:17] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: thats pretty somple to document. "there are none. shelve it until you're out of school/uni/whatever, then get a credit card and order from china"
[04:35:56] <amee2k> RikusW: i'm still working on the layout but 10+ should work out. if i can go down to 8 that would be better but if it costs more i'd rather work around it
[04:36:40] <amee2k> the important parts are 35+um plating and covered/solid vias so i can put them under pads too
[04:38:26] <RikusW> and what kind of ic ? and pin pitch ?
[04:38:26] <amee2k> most is SOIC or TQFP or 0805 or larger
[04:38:27] <amee2k> no QFN or anything else without exposed leads to make assembly easier
[04:38:27] <RikusW> I'd suggest goind larger is you make it yourself...
[04:38:27] <RikusW> its easier
[04:38:27] <RikusW> make the tracks as thick as possible
[04:38:27] <RikusW> when using photoresist
[04:38:53] <amee2k> if they aren't small signal, the tracks are 1-3A or so anyway
[04:39:06] <amee2k> so they'll either be wide enough, or the size doesn't really matter
[04:39:54] <RikusW> not all manufacturers to via in pad...
[04:40:01] <raek> what do you call the "credit cards without credit" (the ones where you can only buy for at most what you have on your bank account)?
[04:40:16] <amee2k> raek: around here they're called "prepaid credit cards"
[04:40:35] <mrfrenzy_> here they are called "bank cards"
[04:40:40] <mrfrenzy_> that's what all students get
[04:40:45] <mrfrenzy_> look like any other credit card
[04:40:52] <mrfrenzy_> but they take money directly from your account
[04:40:57] <raek> exactly. (I'm a Swede too)
[04:41:11] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: thats a debit card, and other than getting real paper from an ATM they're useless
[04:41:15] <mrfrenzy_> no
[04:41:17] <raek> I got mine from my bank for free
[04:41:25] <mrfrenzy_> debit card is like visa electron or maestro
[04:41:26] <raek> and it works as a Visa card
[04:41:32] <mrfrenzy_> the "bank cards" are normal visa and mastercard
[04:41:38] <amee2k> EC doesn't even work reliably within the EU across countries
[04:41:40] <mrfrenzy_> they work fine with paypal etc
[04:41:42] <mrfrenzy_> it's not EC
[04:41:53] <amee2k> oh, i see
[04:42:15] <raek> I use it with paypal and for site which only accepts "credit cards"
[04:42:22] <amee2k> the problem is the places giving out the prepaid CCs apply pretty much the same criteria as for normal credit cards apparently
[04:42:43] <mrfrenzy_> yes, because if the store is offline you could rack up a debt
[04:42:44] <amee2k> which makes it equally difficult to get them, they usually just have lower basic rates
[04:43:05] <raek> but there shouldn't be any risk involved for your bank to give you such a card, no?
[04:43:09] <mrfrenzy_> se above
[04:43:44] <mrfrenzy_> only ec and debit cards are risk free, since they require online connection
[04:44:08] <amee2k> raek: well ideally no. unless there is some system failure that causes processing issues, you shouldn't be able to go below 0 on these. but that doesn't mean they're required to give you one
[04:44:17] <theBear> you can 'buy' a prepaid 'credit card' at the deli down the road, and my regular savings account comes with a 'visa debit' for free
[04:44:40] <amee2k> even the bank where i have my real bank account wants money for the CC
[04:44:54] <amee2k> i only get EC for free
[04:45:07] <theBear> while some places still have the old 'schlock schlick' card machine (non electronic) most of them have forgotten how to use it 10 years ago, and refuse to do a transaction if the electronic machine doesn't connect/approve
[04:45:22] <amee2k> but i think they only do that so people can use the ATM instead of going to the counter every time they need money
[04:45:32] <theBear> i had to do it last year or so, took some remembering... it's been a LONG time
[04:45:36] <RikusW> I have a visa electron but it don't work with paypal...
[04:45:38] <mrfrenzy_> if the phone line is out, the electronic machine will do an offline transaction automatically if you have a CC
[04:45:50] <theBear> mrfrenzy_, not here
[04:45:52] <raek> EC = ?
[04:46:00] <mrfrenzy_> well it depends, a lot of them do
[04:46:08] <amee2k> raek: "Electronic Cash"
[04:46:15] <mrfrenzy_> EC = maestro and visa electron
[04:46:17] <mrfrenzy_> debit cards
[04:46:19] <amee2k> its a type of debit card
[04:46:25] <amee2k> what he said :P
[04:46:27] <raek> ah
[04:46:51] <amee2k> pretty much the universal standard for getting money from ATMs here since they're usually free with bank accounts
[04:46:54] <theBear> mrfrenzy_, NONE of the ones in this entire country do
[04:47:06] <raek> I think very few places here are offline...
[04:47:09] <amee2k> and basic giro accounts are often free for students so they're very common
[04:47:09] <mrfrenzy_> theBear: interesting, almost all in this country do
[04:47:21] <theBear> basically just not a visa card re: EC
[04:47:39] <mrfrenzy_> raek: not normally, but regular stores go offline quite often, several times a year (I have worked in retail)
[04:47:41] <theBear> raek, here it usually happens 'cos of temporary phone line problems or similar
[04:47:48] <mrfrenzy_> for example problem with phone line, or problem at the bank
[04:47:53] <mrfrenzy_> then CC work fine, EC is disabled
[04:48:12] <mrfrenzy_> as soon as phone line comes online again, the machine will dialup and transfer all stored CC transactions
[04:48:33] <mrfrenzy_> there is a limit for how many it can store, so after a long outage the machine will stop doing offline transactions
[04:49:12] <amee2k> thats why i like the idea of captnkernel to offer a board service... he seem cool enough to be flexible about payment options
[04:50:16] <theBear> don't ever let someone on irc make you boards on credit under the belief that someone else will pay for them in a timely fashion, if at all, regardless of how much they beg you
[04:50:30] * theBear knows these things, some of them all too well
[04:55:52] <ziph> You did what now? :)
[04:57:20] <theBear> some ass i worked for needed some boards made in a hurry (that i r+d'd of course) .... naturally my formerly close friend was all too happy to bang them up quick and rush them over etc etc... you think he ever got paid ? you got any idea how many years it was before he'd even say hello in irc again ?
[04:57:47] <theBear> of course by now the same ass owes me about 60grand in pay i'm never gonna see, i was in no position to fix things
[04:58:00] <theBear> and thanks to an unfortunate series of events, haven't been ever since
[04:58:11] <amee2k> ouch
[04:58:17] <ziph> I cut people off at $2k.
[04:58:28] <amee2k> makes sense :P
[04:58:53] <theBear> i was stupid enough to be living there by then, and unlike him took some fucking pride in the company we'd built from the ground up
[04:58:53] <amee2k> regardless of the amount i'd cut them off if they're more than 3 weeks behind paying
[04:59:04] <ziph> Or sooner if I don't see an invoice paid in a timely way.
[04:59:09] <amee2k> unless agreed upon otherwise prior to placing the order
[04:59:33] <ziph> Why didn't you have a part of the company?
[04:59:38] <theBear> i had unlimited beer, food money, smokes, a huge warehouse apartment i could play loud music all night and rollerskate thru, i was content in many ways... but the cracks kept showing and adding up one by one
[05:00:11] <amee2k> the usual term around here is payable within 14-30 days after invoicing
[05:00:14] <theBear> ziph, heh, i could have, but even before i left, with basically just me running a large business, 100+ hours a week, it was becoming a liability... after i left it went to shit
[05:00:40] <amee2k> if they allow 30, then you often get 2-3% off for paying within the first 7-14 days
[05:01:23] <ziph> theBear: So start a limited liability company and be a competent director. :)
[05:01:28] <theBear> since then his wife told him to fuckoff for cheating (she knew months before i did, working my ass off for him...) hasn't paid taxes for a few years before and after, pissed away all the money he borrowed against their (really her house) etc etc
[05:01:53] <theBear> nah, i managed a few times in various capacities, i'm best as a tech of varying kinds, that's where i excel
[05:02:18] <theBear> nice to know you can run a business almost by yourself, but that's enough for me
[05:02:32] <amee2k> mmmh gotta bounce pick up my dad at the train station now
[05:02:47] <theBear> all that is a good half of what prompted me to move back here
[05:02:51] <theBear> mmk, cya amee2k
[05:03:25] <ziph> I've heard a lot of stories about people not getting paid for work.
[05:03:43] <ziph> I've never however heard a story where someone stops getting regular payments and then suddenly it all comes good.
[05:04:23] <ziph> If you're ever going to get paid it's when you stop things and tell them you're not doing work without being paid.
[05:04:23] <amee2k> ziph: in the latter case whoever was to be paid was probably so pissed off about the hold-up that he didn't really care that it turned out good in the end after all
[05:04:50] <amee2k> so its just one more wonky customer for them and they just want to shelf it and forget about the asshole
[05:05:07] <theBear> yeah yeah, i know, but its hard to move when yer completely broke and working all the time
[05:05:13] <theBear> it's ok, won't happen again
[05:05:19] <amee2k> whereas if you end up never seeing any money at all, its a bad story that requires to be shared with society >_<
[05:05:35] <ziph> Unless you've got kids you're never truly broke. ;)
[05:05:47] <amee2k> or a gf :P
[05:05:55] <amee2k> gfs can do that just as well as kids sometimes
[05:06:01] <ziph> They should be self maintaining unless you've got kids. :)
[05:06:11] <amee2k> emphasis on "should"
[05:06:17] <ziph> Otherwise you're heading in to more trouble. :)
[05:06:46] <amee2k> well, you only find that out afterwards usualy
[05:07:02] <amee2k> because if you knew it before you'd have never gotten into the relationship to begin with ;)
[05:09:46] <ziph> You get to pick how long they last though.
[05:10:22] <theBear> i dunno, 6 months of less coming in than just my regular bills, i think i'm truly broke
[05:10:37] <ziph> Where are you in the world?
[05:10:45] <theBear> yesterday i searched the house and spent 24.98 in silver coins (small change) for smokes and a beer
[05:10:55] <theBear> west of aus these days, right back where i started
[05:11:03] <ziph> SA?
[05:11:13] <theBear> that's south you boob, west
[05:11:26] <ziph> I meant South Africa. :)
[05:11:32] <theBear> heh
[05:11:35] <ziph> You're in Perth?
[05:11:36] <theBear> yeah k, i'll pay that
[05:11:45] <theBear> yeah, been in the country a lot recently... food is free at mums house
[05:11:54] <theBear> and so is hot water
[05:12:07] <ziph> Why aren't you up in the NW driving something with car sized wheels?
[05:12:37] <ziph> Assuming you don't have a drug problem they'll take you.
[05:12:47] <theBear> not having any kind of license is a start, not having a heavy vehicle license a continuance, and till last tuesday i'd been on HEAVY painkillers and a walking stick for 6 months straight
[05:13:27] <theBear> with any luck i get my first ever provisional (drive unsupervised, eventually becomes a real license) in a few weeks :)
[05:14:00] <ziph> You're only just getting a regular drivers licence?
[05:17:44] <theBear> you gotta get a regular one first
[05:18:04] <theBear> then i dunno, maybe after 2 years you can start 'learning' in something bigger
[05:18:05] <ziph> Yeap, not much at all you can do without one.
[05:18:31] <ziph> I don't think that counts for mining vehicles.
[05:18:45] <theBear> can only even apply for a license for really big ones (roadtrains etc, not sure about the giant tonka trucks) if you got a job that needs it, or one lined up
[05:18:53] <ziph> If you turn up to one of the work placement agencies actually wanting work they'll go out of their way to help you.
[05:19:18] <ziph> (Since 99% of their clients are just people that want the dole)
[05:19:28] <theBear> i mean, i have driven everything except those giant trucks successfully in the past, several quite a bit, but those kinda jobs weren't so strict
[05:19:46] <ziph> :_
[05:19:47] <ziph> :)
[05:19:52] <ziph> It isn't just driving they want though.
[05:20:15] <theBear> oh yeah, i'm temporarily banned from all the work agencies in town 'cos the social security doctor said i'm fit to work 0-8hrs a week until the middle of the year, so now i gotta see another round of doctors and meet with the govt doctor to get that changed if i can't find my own work
[05:20:29] <theBear> seems they can all look that up instantly now
[05:21:46] <ziph> So this guy that didn't pay you and hasn't paid his taxes... He's in Australia? :)
[05:22:43] <theBear> yeah, the taxes are kinda easy to dodge for a few years, only way they know what you owe is from stuff you report to them, but also, you can't chase money that isn't there...
[05:22:58] <ziph> They can.
[05:23:20] <ziph> How did he run it without submitting BAS statements?
[05:23:37] <theBear> you'd be surprised how many bas statements don't get lodged across all sectors of community
[05:24:36] <ziph> You'll find in the last couple of years they've changed things to be much nastier.
[05:24:37] <theBear> i know people that registered and started trading the first day and have never lodged one, i lodged a few maybe 8 years ago, cancelled the active status and changed mailing address 3 times over a period of maybe 6months, each time they 'forgot' the change after one or 2 letters to the right address, i gave up on 'em
[05:25:01] <ziph> They can effectively lodge the documents on your behalf based on estimates and then prosecute you for them.
[05:25:05] <theBear> did i mention i'm close friends with a tax office auditor over here ? i had a few long chats with him, to cover my ass, check whats what, out of interest, see what i can do
[05:25:25] <theBear> ziph, so what, he goes to jail for a few years ? hardly seems to help
[05:25:37] <theBear> tho said like that, does sound kinda tempting
[05:25:37] <ziph> That sounds like personal tax returns, you can leave those for a decade and they don't care.
[05:25:48] <theBear> trust me on this
[05:25:57] <ziph> theBear: While he's in jail he isn't ripping off someone else like you. :)
[05:26:15] <theBear> it's been in my interest to keep track of various kinds of businesses and their tax situations since about a year after the new tax system began
[05:26:55] <ziph> What new tax system?
[05:26:59] <theBear> yeah, i think he's finally pissed off everyone in town, guys he's known for 30 years hate him now and advertise why openly and publicly, etc etc
[05:26:59] <theBear> gst
[05:27:05] <theBear> that's the new tax system
[05:27:08] <theBear> how young are you ?
[05:27:20] <ziph> I wouldn't call it a new tax system. :)
[05:27:30] <ziph> We get a new tax system every year.
[05:27:33] <ziph> ;)
[05:27:38] <theBear> pfft, even in my lifetime it hasn't been around half as long as the old one
[05:27:57] <ziph> It only changed sales tax though.
[05:28:18] <ziph> Under that criteria you could've called FBT and Capital Gains a "new tax system".
[05:28:39] <theBear> i remember brighter days, businesses didn't have to account tax for every little thing they did, individuals could contract themselves as they wished and do a very similar return to anyone else with a 'real job'
[05:28:58] <ziph> You think provisional tax was brighter days?
[05:29:13] <theBear> for small businesses and individual contractors, yes, much brighter
[05:29:14] <ziph> And businesses that don't account for everything they do are hobbies, not businesses. ;)
[05:29:30] <ziph> Provisional tax was a blight.
[05:29:57] <theBear> that's a point, but you shouldn't have to do the tax offices work at the end of the quarter, that often adds costs and complexity where it cannot be afforded
[05:30:31] <ziph> The only people that didn't support GST were lefties that were worried that it wasn't progressive enough, and they tried to claim all kinds of things regarding impact on businesses.
[05:31:24] <ziph> theBear: Better to do 20 minutes of paperwork each quarter than to pay a full years worth of tax in advance.
[05:31:28] <theBear> meh, i was young, i didn't manage businesses or do business tax back before then, but i DID see it strain many small businesses and contractors and 'entertainers', including myself
[05:31:59] <ziph> You mean because it made doing under the table jobs harder? :)
[05:32:30] <theBear> ziph, now that point is very arguable... struggling business and contractors often have a lot of trouble 'putting aside' money, prepay based on estimates at least lets them ramp up as the 'business' develops from nothing
[05:32:47] <theBear> nah, it made them way easier, 'cos noone wanted to write out stupid tax invoices all the time or do extra tax
[05:33:25] <theBear> reminds me, being broke i should do some tax returns, you know, about 14 years worth
[05:34:09] <ziph> theBear: The only people it may have affected were those that were running their business illegally or without sufficient competency.
[05:34:31] <theBear> ziph, sufficient competency is unusual in small businesses ... you haven't noticed ?
[05:34:44] <theBear> doesn't mean the employees should suffer
[05:35:02] <theBear> which in effect they do if the incompetent owner/managers kill the business
[05:35:10] <ziph> Businesses with employees already do monthly PAYG submissions. How did the GST make that any worse?
[05:36:53] <theBear> they did ? like i said i didn't do business tax back then, but it made things worse by requiring all kinds of alterations to pos systems, invoices, extra paperwork at all levels from the counter to the accountant, and generally freaked out incompetent small business owners
[05:38:00] <theBear> how did this conversation ever happen here of all places ? no no, that's enough, i don't miss thinking about this stuff at all
[05:38:01] <ziph> Wouldn't you normally provide a customer with a receipt/invoice if they asked?
[05:38:13] <theBear> ziph, IF they asked, but it didn't have any special formatting needs
[05:38:40] <theBear> often came from a simple receipt book, sometimes an expensive pos package that couldn't be altered or updated etc etc...
[05:39:08] <ziph> You can do a tax invoice from a simple receipt book.
[05:39:10] <theBear> but seriously, i don't care, i don't approve of the way politics works in general, and this just, i don't care about the tax system any more
[05:39:25] <ziph> :)
[05:39:27] <theBear> only if it has tax invoice on it, then you gotta write your abn manually on each page, etc etc
[05:39:31] <theBear> but what i just said
[05:39:55] <theBear> i stopped caring about a lot of things over the years, often almost all things...
[05:40:05] <ziph> By the way, there's a parliamentary committee working on legislation to force people in your position to lodge their returns quickly or have default returns lodged for them, so you might want to do those returns in the next year or so. :)
[05:40:06] <theBear> most of them much more important than death and taxes :)
[05:41:01] <ziph> Yeap, that's what 9-5 jobs are for.
[05:41:02] <theBear> ziph, they've got copies, i never had a car, spent maybe ooh, a total of $500 on claimable purchases over my working lifetime.... they'd be doing me a favour, AND no doubt paying my remaining bas bill as they did it :)
[05:41:26] <theBear> then maybe, just maybe they'd somehow manage to fucking re-cancel the abn and re-change the address they can't seem to get right
[05:41:53] <ziph> Get an AusKey and fix it online. Takes about 10 minutes. :)
[05:41:57] <theBear> i had a 9-5 job till i broke recently, i've got ooh, a good 6 or 7 years of proper above board lodged group certificates .... it's good
[05:43:53] <theBear> nah, at this point i don't wanna mess with them.... here's a story for yer, maybe ooh, 2 years ago i was sitting at work and got forwarded a call for me... "Hello, this is Mr dude from the tax dept, just wanted to confirm a few details, are you theBear formerly trading in OTHERSTATE from this address and this address etc etc" "Yes, that's me" "So, you live in W.A now ?" "Yes, yes i do, you just called me at work..." "Very good, thankyou for your time,
[05:43:53] <theBear> have a good day" <click> !!!!
[05:44:11] <theBear> i dunno wtf it was about, but they really seem uninterested in me, i'm guessing they've done the same maths i have on what i owe them vs what they owe me
[05:44:54] <ziph> Yeah, for now they don't care, but there's been enquiries in to how many tax payers haven't lodged returns for extended periods.
[05:45:03] <theBear> and i suppose i been on social security for about 6months ... not a word
[05:45:12] <theBear> ziph, like i say, they'd be doing me a favour
[05:45:47] <ziph> theBear: They could get 14 * $200 FTL fines off you. ;)
[05:46:00] <theBear> they do it 100% down the line, no claims, exactly what the group cert.s say, and take off my bas bill, they still owe me thousands
[05:46:49] <theBear> heck, that's umm, 2800, i think can take that, at the same time noone at the office where i got my TFN ever told me, nor does any of the attached documentation, that i'm supposed to lodge them... obviously i worked it out eventually, but well, i'd be happy to argue my point
[05:47:00] <theBear> sure as hell didn't tell me there'd be fines
[05:47:01] <RikusW> theBear: seems like we both dislike politics and taxes ;)
[05:47:25] <theBear> RikusW, i don't mind taxes, they keep the roads and crap in order, but i don't like thinking about them
[05:47:36] <theBear> hot damn, really, i'm stopping this now, IT IS, OVER !
[05:47:59] <ziph> theBear: I'd be amused to hear their response to that. :)
[05:48:40] <RikusW> seems like taxes always sparks a debate ;)
[05:48:45] <ziph> If the current government wasn't so gutless they would've introduced automatic returns (you don't have to lodge one yourself) for most people.
[05:48:46] <theBear> ziph, i'm good at finding humour in many things, it'd be interesting, i mean, it's a pretty valid argument, and i can reach out right now and have ALL the original documentation they gave me when i applied for and got my tfn :)
[05:49:05] <ziph> theBear: Ignorance of the law doesn't help you though.
[05:49:15] <theBear> if they weren't so gutless they'd stop oh+s reform and heck, just send out the victorian cops to cull the herd a bit
[05:49:30] <ziph> theBear: They'll just tell you "no problem, just pay the fines and interest". ;)
[05:49:51] <theBear> ziph, and i'll say, no problem, take the fines out, and pay interest on what you owed me :)
[05:50:10] <theBear> i can still disappear easily, and well, things can't ever get any worse than they've been for several years now
[05:50:33] <ziph> By the way, Australia still has a deduction for having a house-keeper-daughter. :)
[05:50:48] <ziph> About 1000 people a year claim it.
[05:50:59] <theBear> jail would be a freakin luxury holiday ! 3 meals a day, gym, doctors on hand, no tax, no shopping, no girls, lots of opportunities to release some agression by pummeling someone into a crumpled heap of flesh and blood....
[05:51:10] <ziph> theBear: Umm.
[05:51:14] <theBear> i aint stupid, i aint got no daughter
[05:51:20] <ziph> theBear: If you want jail pick a state other than WA and NT.
[05:51:27] <theBear> ziph, seriously, i almost committed myself a few times over the years for the same reason
[05:51:48] <theBear> dunno about city jail in wa, but the country ones are fine and dandy, heck, half of them you get to live as a farmer
[05:52:10] <theBear> not like i'd be in a high security jail for some interest on a bas bill and some tax return fines
[05:52:23] <ziph> You would if the jail term is long enough. :)
[05:53:07] <theBear> oh yeah, almost 3 years ago now, i found a letter at an old address of mine (i may or may not occasionally keep an eye on these things) which clearly said "we can't find you, last we knew you were here, you are no longer on the electoral roll" !!!! that's the holy grail of not existing ! noone has EVER got taken off completely
[05:53:42] <theBear> ziph, meh it's ok, i'm a bit weak this month, but i'll be back in no time, and this state is pretty soft, not many people ANYWHERE that make me feel threatened, in a fight or otherwise
[05:53:56] <theBear> and i'm a sociopath, so ya know, if anything i enjoy hurting people
[05:54:09] <ziph> Sounds like you'd fit right in then.
[05:54:16] <theBear> probly
[05:54:33] <theBear> good buddies with a few guys that spent varying times in the jails around here...
[05:55:00] <ziph> Just need a bit of a penchant for violent anal sex and you're all set.
[05:55:22] <theBear> poor buddy mr jay has a few years left in umm, out west in syd, it's been a while... poor mr jay, he was doing well before i left, working real jobs for the first time in years, off the hard drugs etc etc, but sigh, it seems things always go to shit when i leave town
[05:55:49] <theBear> ziph, hehe, don't you worry about that, violent anal sex is nothing on what i get into when i get the chance :)
[05:56:06] <theBear> massochist with RIDICULOUSLY high pain tolerance too :)
[05:56:22] <theBear> ive operated on my finger without anisthetic, down to the bone !
[05:56:35] <ziph> I think as far as this conversation goes I might be done.
[05:56:49] <theBear> heh, how about that, just when i was starting to enjoy the way it was going :)
[05:56:55] <theBear> well, nice chattin i guess
[05:57:26] <ziph> Facebook page for theBear: Hates: 1. Tax Likes 2. Violent Anal Sex.
[05:57:51] <theBear> nah, 1. hate would have to be facebook, so umm, you know :)
[07:58:14] <CapnKernel> Awful quiet in here
[08:01:00] <ziph> CapnKernel: What are your thoughts on the GST? ;)
[08:01:23] <CapnKernel> Gee, open ended question!
[08:01:55] <CapnKernel> You mean the general question in economic terms of whether a consumption tax makes sense?
[08:02:21] <ziph> CapnKernel: See the scrollback.
[08:02:23] <CapnKernel> Whether I personally like or dislike Australia's implementation of a consumption tax?
[08:02:28] <mrfrenzy_> I think consumption tax is better than income tax
[08:02:29] <CapnKernel> I think I wasn't here
[08:02:38] <CapnKernel> Too busy in the market place getting quotes for stuff :-)
[08:02:38] <ziph> CapnKernel: Someone was trotting out the line that it was an undue burden on business compared to provisional tax.
[08:02:40] <mrfrenzy_> better to encourage work than encourage consumption
[08:02:59] <mrfrenzy_> with the planets resources being limited and all
[08:03:04] <CapnKernel> I'm all for transparency, and I think that's a huge problem with a provisional tax
[08:03:14] <CapnKernel> I have rather strong thoughts about that
[08:03:40] <ziph> mrfrenzy_: But then you can't charge rich people more for milk.
[08:03:45] <CapnKernel> For example, let's take fossil fuels, which are, to be banal, not free. They have a price.
[08:04:15] <mrfrenzy_> ziph: that's correct, and it gives me an incentive to work harder and become rich
[08:04:27] <mrfrenzy_> why work more than neccessary if the state will just take my money?
[08:04:30] <CapnKernel> The problem with the way we price fossil fuels, and this goes for a good many things, is that the price we pay is only the cost of production, plus producer margin
[08:04:39] <CapnKernel> It doesn't take into account the cost of consumption.
[08:04:47] <ziph> mrfrenzy_: But poor people are poor and the more money wealthy people earn the better off the poor should be.
[08:04:54] <CapnKernel> With fossil fuels, there is a definite cost of consumption.
[08:05:19] <mrfrenzy_> ziph: rich people spend more, so they will still pay more tax, and ofcourse you have some tax on income aswell
[08:05:24] <ziph> mrfrenzy_: You will work harder because you know the more you work the better off the poor will be?
[08:05:35] <CapnKernel> Same as electronic equipment. We pay only the cost of production. We pay nothing for the cost of consumption, yet the consumption of electronic goods in terms of the e-waste it produces, is immense.
[08:05:52] <mrfrenzy_> people who believe people think like that (work harder for the poor) are the ones who advocate communism
[08:05:56] <mrfrenzy_> unfortunately it didn't work
[08:06:05] <CapnKernel> I for one don't mind paying tax
[08:06:26] <CapnKernel> I mean, sure I'd rather have more money in my pocket, but
[08:06:28] <ziph> mrfrenzy_: It's working in Australia, jobs are being brought back from overseas and the non-mining industries are booming.
[08:06:47] <mrfrenzy_> what is working?
[08:06:55] <CapnKernel> I think that while my country might not have the most efficient government in the world (Singapore maybe?) it does a pretty good job with the tax it raises.
[08:06:56] <ziph> Socialism.
[08:07:09] <mrfrenzy_> yes we have it here too
[08:07:14] <ziph> CapnKernel: You're being funny, right? :)
[08:07:20] <CapnKernel> No not at all.
[08:07:28] <mrfrenzy_> it's working quite ok, but far from perfect
[08:07:29] <CapnKernel> Not perfect by a long shot
[08:07:32] <CapnKernel> Yes
[08:07:48] <ziph> CapnKernel: Have you looked at the public service employment figures?
[08:08:09] <CapnKernel> Yes, and I consider that a necessary consequence of living in a pretty cool country.
[08:08:29] <CapnKernel> I live in a country (China) where a great deal of tax, and of government spending get siphoned off into people's pockets
[08:08:34] <CapnKernel> That's the exception in Australia
[08:09:14] <CapnKernel> And we have a media which, in the interest of selling papers, screams blue murder when it detects waste.
[08:09:35] <CapnKernel> I think there are systems far worse than what we have in Australia
[08:09:43] <CapnKernel> So no, I don't mind paying tax.
[08:09:52] <CapnKernel> Because I think we the people get reasonable value for money.
[08:10:02] <ziph> It's easy to do better.
[08:10:26] <CapnKernel> I'm deeply saddened by the lack of vision, by the poll-drivenness of both the major parties at the moment.
[08:10:34] <ziph> And a bit weird to be comparing a top of the list UN Human Development Index country with one at the bottom. :)
[08:11:04] <ziph> Anyhow, there you go, channel not idle any more. :)
[08:11:08] <CapnKernel> China is in the bottom half because of the shitty things that happen! And Australia is in the top half because of the shitty things that don't happen!
[08:11:22] <ziph> Yeah, exactly.
[08:11:36] <CapnKernel> LOL, soon Europe and USanada will wake up and say OMG the Aussies have owned the channel :-)
[08:11:55] <CapnKernel> If our system of government, of our way of collecting taxes is so terrible, then we wouldn't be in the top half.
[08:12:11] <ziph> Yeah, you're only allowed to talk in here if your country or union of countries isn't bankrupt. ;)
[08:12:42] <mrfrenzy_> I think all the greece people are to busy protesting against taxes that they don't have time for irc
[08:12:46] <CapnKernel> We're only not in that category by the luck of having shit in the ground that people want. And that's not going to alst forever.
[08:12:54] <CapnKernel> I really don't get the Greece thing
[08:13:20] <CapnKernel> The usual answer is to devalue the currency, it's a form of starting again. It worked in Argentina.
[08:13:25] <ziph> The Greek protests are against reducing handouts, no one pays tax there anyhow. ;)
[08:13:37] <ziph> They can't.
[08:13:38] <CapnKernel> That can't be done in Greece because of the single currency region.
[08:13:39] <CapnKernel> Yeah
[08:13:44] <mrfrenzy_> it's very easy, for many years the people voted for politicians that were reducint retirement age, reducing taxes, and increasing handouts
[08:13:51] <ziph> Neither can we apparently.
[08:14:00] <CapnKernel> They're all up in arms because their national credit card's being taken away
[08:14:14] <CapnKernel> Talk about an entitlement complex!
[08:14:16] <mrfrenzy_> have you ever watched operation repo?
[08:14:32] <CapnKernel> Those folks have just got to suck it up because they've been living on borrowed time for too long.
[08:14:35] <CapnKernel> No
[08:14:39] <mrfrenzy_> indeed
[08:14:42] <CapnKernel> I have no idea what it is. (I don't watch TV)
[08:14:48] <mrfrenzy_> it's about a US company doing repos
[08:15:03] <mrfrenzy_> that is they go around collecting cars for which the users have neglected to pay their bank
[08:15:07] <CapnKernel> Yes
[08:15:13] <mrfrenzy_> and they all are crying and screaming DON't take MY car
[08:15:30] <mrfrenzy_> which they only have payed like 1/30 of
[08:15:33] <ziph> mrfrenzy_: The one I saw was from Texas and mainly involved owners shooting at the repo men. ;)
[08:15:34] <CapnKernel> The folks committed to a certain future, then cry when they can't meet their commitment and have to face the consequences
[08:15:53] <CapnKernel> "America: What a wonderful place to put all the Americans"
[08:15:58] <CapnKernel> I feel sorry for Canada.
[08:16:24] <ziph> Canada has a secret weapon to keep Americans out.
[08:16:28] <ziph> The French.
[08:16:30] <ziph> *g,d*
[08:16:35] <CapnKernel> Ice Hockey?
[08:17:08] <CapnKernel> LOL
[08:18:03] <CapnKernel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_TfBbR6L0M
[08:19:53] <CapnKernel> I am a big believer in the notion of taking personal responsibility.
[08:26:13] <ziph> So you'd be a Labor voter? :)
[08:26:37] <CapnKernel> I'm not a Laboral voter, if that's what you mean.
[08:26:46] <CapnKernel> Both are piss-weak gutless wonders.
[08:27:09] <CapnKernel> With absolutely no principles and no desire to improve our lot, past the least amount necessary to stay in power.
[08:27:52] <CapnKernel> In that I see big benefit to society from governments investing in forward looking things like infrastructure and education, then you could say I'm a leftist.
[08:28:22] <CapnKernel> Australia has been running on stored momentum for the past 20 years.
[08:28:30] <CapnKernel> That momentum is starting to run out.
[08:28:37] <ziph> The difference there is if you think companies should build infrastructure or if public servants should.
[08:28:41] <CapnKernel> It would be plain to see, except for the mining boom.
[08:29:13] <CapnKernel> If competitiveness would improve the result to the end user, then companies. For example, the NBN should be hands-off.
[08:29:17] <CapnKernel> Government wise
[08:29:33] <ziph> Momentum? Not in Perth; we've had more significant infrastructure going in in the last 10 years than the 10 before that.
[08:29:55] <CapnKernel> Yes, Perth's probably an example of what I'd like to see. How about that railway line to Manildra!
[08:30:12] <CapnKernel> Doesn't mean I'm not right in larger Australia though.
[08:30:48] <ziph> That thing was torture because the unions building were too cosy with Labor.
[08:30:56] <ziph> They knew if they played up they wouldn't get whapped.
[08:31:34] <CapnKernel> Telstra should be neutered: as long as Telstra has a monopoly on infrastructure such as exchange premises, and access to the so-called "last mile" to pits and trenches, and does shitty things like charges more for wholesale of its service than retail, then no investment bank would pony up the readies to build an NBN.
[08:31:47] <CapnKernel> But there are some things a government should fund, such as universities
[08:32:07] <ziph> They just give them a wad of money.
[08:32:09] <theBear> wtf ? we still on about .au politics ? pfft, you guys should take up alcaholism or electronics or something <grin>
[08:32:13] <CapnKernel> That is absolutely an investment: If you pay to skill up people, they will get higher earning jobs, and end up paying more tax
[08:32:14] <ziph> They have very little influence on most of them.
[08:32:20] <theBear> ziph, you in perth ?
[08:32:25] <ziph> theBear: Yeah.
[08:32:26] * CapnKernel is drinking his homebrew...
[08:32:47] <theBear> ziph, holy crap ! gimme a hint, say i was at ooh, the tv stations, which way would i face ?
[08:33:07] <ziph> theBear: Huh?
[08:33:15] <CapnKernel> And heaven knows, with our ever-aging population, we're going to need all the taxpayers we can get.
[08:33:21] <theBear> someone else from ##electronics is coming to town in umm, march 24/25th
[08:33:38] <theBear> could be the biggest ##electronics meetup in over 5 years
[08:33:52] <ziph> theBear: What do you mean about the TV stations?
[08:34:02] <theBear> ziph, well i mean, you can tell me the suburb, just some people get uncomfortable about that kinda thing on irc
[08:34:20] <theBear> i mean if i walked 15 mins i'd be at them, and they're a good reference most people know
[08:34:40] <theBear> to find me you'd look kinda sou-sou-east from them...
[08:34:41] <ziph> Aren't most people in Lesmurdie stoners?
[08:34:56] <theBear> lol, yeah, the non-retirees, but this is yokine :)
[08:35:16] <theBear> we got lots of nice families here, and an amazing number of VERY black africans the last few years
[08:35:28] <theBear> like invisible in the sun black
[08:36:05] <theBear> then again, i think we had 2 home break and beatup old peoples recently, and 2 stabbings within a couple blocks of here :)
[08:36:14] <ziph> Yeah, most likely Somalis.
[08:36:37] <theBear> maybe, they're fine with me.... lot of 'em very christian, but i can live with that
[08:36:57] <ziph> And I base that statement on where an immigrant from Africa is most likely to be from at the moment, not on your other statements.
[08:37:01] <theBear> i only really 'know' zulus well, far as visual/language/etc identification
[08:37:18] <theBear> heh yeah, incredibly black DOES describe more than a few african peoples :)
[08:37:33] <theBear> just, i never saw people that colour when i was a kid, it's, so amazingly black !
[08:38:21] <ziph> Move to Kalamunda then, it's like the 70's.
[08:38:25] <theBear> anyway, i think i'm gonner go to vic park march 24 or 25, or maybe i dunno, city a day before/after and meet this other guy, if yer interested feel free to get involved
[08:38:45] <ziph> After the prison discussion? Maybe not. ;)
[08:38:47] <theBear> oh i miss kalamunda... hmm.. you been there over 10 years ? used to have a good buddy Dennis Lightfoot lived there
[08:39:24] <theBear> hey, i didn't say i like violent anal rape, just that it was nothing on what i do behind closed doors, and that's by the by, in public, and especially to people from irc, i'm very nice
[08:39:36] <ziph> Yeah, I'm joking.
[08:39:46] <ziph> I'm always joking, unless I'm not.
[08:39:47] <theBear> very good :)
[08:39:53] <CapnKernel> Let me check... yep, still #avr. A little surprising though...
[08:39:56] <theBear> wow, you are local
[08:40:31] <ziph> CapnKernel: #avr standards for Australians Vocalising Rhetoric.
[08:40:31] <theBear> so anyway, roughly march 24/25 this newish dude zap is gonna be in town... we should meet up for a beer or a food or whatever normal people do
[08:40:35] <theBear> heh
[08:41:12] <CapnKernel> ziph: LOL
[08:41:14] <theBear> CapnKernel, you gotta understand, if i had a car and he was willing, i could meet ziph inside a half hour, probly a lot less if he also had a car
[08:41:17] <CapnKernel> ROFL in fact
[08:41:21] <theBear> this surprises me
[08:42:08] <theBear> don't spose you irc'd in ooh, about '93/94/95 ? we mighta already met
[08:42:08] <CapnKernel> you mean like... meet in real life????
[08:42:12] <CapnKernel> OMG!
[08:42:21] <theBear> totally, dude !
[08:43:20] <theBear> heck, we find one more person in the state that weekend, and i've no doubt it'd be the biggest freenode/electronics/micro related meetup in .au EVER, possibly in the world !!!!!!
[08:44:40] <theBear> ok, enough raving like a lunatic.. i had my first pill in a week, i'll stop making sense completely in a minute....
[08:45:06] <CapnKernel> I'm waiting for it to start.
[08:45:07] <theBear> but if yer wanna meet one or two electronicey people ziph, yer welcome, i'm sure the other guy won't mind another...
[08:45:28] <theBear> no seriously, these pills just make me a sad blubbering mess, not literally, more figuratively
[10:51:08] <ziph> abcminiuser: Hey there.
[10:51:20] <abcminiuser> Heyo
[10:51:31] <ziph> abcminiuser: How's Coldland? :)
[10:51:52] <abcminiuser> I'm completely buggered
[10:52:23] <ziph> From work, or the cold? :)
[10:52:27] <abcminiuser> I worked through my daily allotmet of questions, no more damnit
[10:52:32] <abcminiuser> Work
[10:52:42] <ziph> Questions at work? :)
[10:53:11] <ziph> I looked at the NXP LUFA a couple of days ago. It's a bit hairy, but mainly because it seems to do even low level compatibility with LUFA.
[10:53:38] <ziph> Endpoint data is moved into a buffer and your stream read/write functions just access that ram buffer.
[10:54:08] <ziph> I have however found a good way to do USB with an interrupts only stack.
[10:55:26] <ziph> One that would probably work semi-efficiently for an AVR8 too.
[10:56:44] <ziph> ...and you got none of that I'm guessing. :)
[10:59:58] <ziph> abcminiuser: Did you get any of that?
[11:00:50] <abcminiuser> Probably not
[11:00:57] <abcminiuser> We have third world internet here
[11:01:04] <ziph> :)
[11:01:25] <ziph> ziph: I looked at the NXP LUFA a couple of days ago. It's a bit hairy, but mainly because it seems to do even low level compatibility with LUFA.
[11:01:26] <ziph> ziph: Endpoint data is moved into a buffer and your stream read/write functions just access that ram buffer.
[11:01:26] <ziph> ziph: I have however found a good way to do USB with an interrupts only stack.
[11:01:26] <ziph> ziph: One that would probably work semi-efficiently for an AVR8 too.
[11:05:29] <cyanide> men
[11:05:34] <OndraSter> Look at my board, my board looks amazing
[11:05:36] <OndraSter> Give it a lick
[11:05:44] <OndraSter> it tastes like raisin
[11:05:50] <cyanide> pic
[11:06:00] <OndraSter> wait, what is the flux inside tin
[11:06:08] <OndraSter> I KNOW it fits instead "raisin"
[11:06:59] <LmAt> Where is some good circuit simulation software?
[11:07:08] <OndraSter> LTspice?
[11:07:09] <LmAt> I am familiar with proteus, but it's too expensive. Do you use anything?
[11:07:11] <CapnKernel> It tastes like raison because of the lead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%28II%29_acetate
[11:07:20] <LmAt> OndraSter; Thanks, I'll look it up.
[11:07:21] <OndraSter> I don't use anything, I believe in myself
[11:07:26] <LmAt> OndraSter; Ouch
[11:07:28] <cyanide> i want to put rx and tx leds on my atmega32u4 board, where do i connect those?
[11:07:28] <OndraSter> because I do only digital circuits
[11:07:38] <OndraSter> cyanide, RX TX as for UART?
[11:07:46] <cyanide> yeh
[11:07:53] <OndraSter> well, I'd say control them yourself
[11:08:06] <cyanide> no onboard solution?
[11:08:13] <OndraSter> no
[11:08:19] <cyanide> fuck if im going to code to control some leds
[11:08:22] <cyanide> bah
[11:08:22] <OndraSter> really, two lines of even assembler code
[11:08:34] <ziph> cyanide: You probably want to put a discrete logic buffer or inverter on them that can source or sink >20mA or a discrete MOSFET on each to do the same.
[11:08:55] <ziph> cyanide: Or do it in software.
[11:09:01] <OndraSter> hmm 20mA?
[11:09:20] <OndraSter> I am doing 5mA for small LEDs on FT232 and even then they are superbright
[11:09:35] <cyanide> ft232 has the gpio pins to do leds :(
[11:09:39] <cyanide> i think ill skip the leds for now
[11:09:54] <OndraSter> yeah, it has builtin option for it
[11:09:56] <Kevin`> avr can source/sink 20ma or 40ma per pin depending on the chip
[11:10:19] <ziph> Kevin`: He wants it from the RX/TX lines though, not additional pins.
[11:10:32] <OndraSter> it will be blinking too fast
[11:10:38] <OndraSter> I'd say, LEDs onto the mega
[11:10:52] <OndraSter> and on TX interrput rise => set them, before jumping back put them back
[11:11:10] <ziph> Haven't you seen those breakout boxes with LED's? They work fine. :)
[11:11:19] <CapnKernel> Put the signal through a binary counter?
[11:11:31] <ziph> Put an FPGA on the board to do it!
[11:11:39] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!397&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!ABxaiwGybzpMkqY
[11:11:48] <OndraSter> you need dedicated ARM MCU for it!
[11:11:56] <ziph> ARM A9.
[11:12:01] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!398&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AEqUea1pbRjcVdo
[11:12:01] <ziph> With embedded DSP.
[11:12:06] <OndraSter> ARM11...
[11:12:13] <OndraSter> and PowerVG SGX540 GPU!
[11:12:17] <cyanide> im trying an atmega32u4 to save money because it lets me skip on a seperate uart chip
[11:12:19] <CapnKernel> CM5
[11:12:41] <ziph> cyanide: The USB on it is nice for other things too (like keyboard emulation).
[11:13:21] <cyanide> im working mainly on automotive stuff, so i dont care too much for the device emulation
[11:13:32] <cyanide> though a hardware keylogger would be awesomely cool with one of those
[11:13:35] <ziph> GPIB support?
[11:13:37] <cyanide> i could build one myself
[11:13:39] <cyanide> gpib?
[11:13:53] <ziph> The HP protocol that all lab instruments use.
[11:14:37] <cyanide> i dont care much for that either
[11:14:50] <cyanide> im building these boards to intercept various sensors and do things accordingly
[11:15:13] <cyanide> like my current board is being built to let me do a variable length intake system
[11:15:15] <ziph> Labview likes GPIB too.
[11:17:11] <OndraSter> is GPIB opendocument?
[11:17:22] <ziph> Mostly.
[11:17:36] <ziph> It can be hard to get information for some devices though.
[11:18:54] <cyanide> ziph, like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPcpmSdip_0
[11:19:06] <LmAt> OndraSter; LTSpice is interesting.
[11:19:23] <OndraSter> like I said, I don't do testing
[11:19:26] <OndraSter> even logic circuits
[11:19:38] <OndraSter> that's why I prefer having even two MCUs rather a lot of discrete logic
[11:19:49] <ziph> I'm not sure I'd bother with it for logic circuits (except for simulating input/output drivers).
[11:19:49] <OndraSter> (actually, my board has one MCU and really few discrete logic...)
[11:20:03] <OndraSter> yeah
[11:20:11] <OndraSter> anything that can be fixed by software = no need to test
[11:20:15] <OndraSter> or anything that is simple enough
[11:20:49] <ziph> It's more that it isn't very good at it.
[11:20:57] <ziph> :)
[11:22:58] <asteve> OndraSter: what about discrete logic programmed by software?
[11:23:02] <asteve> ala fpga :)
[11:23:27] <OndraSter> no need to test that either
[11:23:31] <OndraSter> because you can fix it later
[11:23:35] <OndraSter> if there is problem with it
[11:23:39] <OndraSter> you can't fix discrete logic
[11:24:00] <ziph> I think you'll find testing rather common in HDL design.
[11:25:04] <cyanide> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2sVNRQARUc
[11:25:06] <cyanide> awesome lol
[11:32:19] <ziph> Anyone know ld well enough to suggest an approach for injecting a large number of symbols that would then be used and cause relocations to be emitted in the ELF file?
[12:11:39] * specing Has that feeling that avr-gcc is putting NOPs everywhere just to piss him off
[12:11:44] <specing> d0: 00 d0 rcall .+0 ; 0xd2 <main+0x6> d2: 00 d0 rcall .+0 ; 0xd4 <main+0x8>
[12:11:50] <specing> wtf?
[12:17:49] <Steffanx> poor you
[12:18:04] <Steffanx> avr-gcc does nothing without a reason
[12:32:31] <ziph> Uuummm.
[12:32:44] <ziph> This GCC build is defaulting to generating PIC.
[12:32:45] <ziph> Fun.
[12:32:54] <Steffanx> ?!
[12:36:45] <ziph> Actually.
[12:37:03] <ziph> It's because loading variables relative to the PC is more compact on this uC than using an absolute address.
[12:37:06] <ziph> That's pretty funny.
[12:37:37] <Steffanx> Whatever
[12:38:21] <ziph> Steffanx: I missed the bit where I was talking specifically to you and was desperately hoping you'd be interested? :)
[12:39:06] <RikusW> ziph: PIC as in position independent code ?
[12:39:21] <ziph> Yeah.
[12:39:21] <Steffanx> I guess I missed that too ziph
[12:39:58] <ziph> It'd doing PC relative loads for globals.
[12:40:04] <ziph> It's doing rather.
[12:40:37] <RikusW> Steffanx: guess you were thinking of the opposition ? ;)
[12:41:22] <OndraSter> bbefore
[12:41:22] <Steffanx> No really RikusW.. :P
[12:41:22] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!400&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AOyZRmvHs3Tj1GU
[12:41:33] <OndraSter> after
[12:41:33] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!399&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AE66JGiqpIc6Sm8
[12:41:42] <Steffanx> :D
[12:41:55] <Steffanx> Even used
[12:42:09] <Steffanx> 'feets' for the dotmatrices
[12:42:14] <OndraSter> yeah
[12:42:18] <OndraSter> it has purpose :)
[12:42:22] <OndraSter> a) I can re-use them anytime
[12:42:39] <OndraSter> b) I don't have to check 5 times the polarity... I can always rotate them
[12:42:48] <OndraSter> c) it gives me space to solder wires for row/columns
[12:42:56] <OndraSter> d) if one module burns, I can easily replace it
[12:43:03] <Steffanx> e) ..
[12:43:15] <OndraSter> yeah
[12:43:17] <ziph> The pins are such that they don't die being powered up the wrong way around?
[12:43:18] <OndraSter> e) ....
[12:43:23] <OndraSter> ziph, no
[12:43:31] <OndraSter> forward voltage < reverse voltage
[12:43:46] <OndraSter> reverse is about 5V or so
[12:43:51] <OndraSter> forward about 2 - 3V
[12:44:06] <OndraSter> I will be burning them a bit more tho
[12:44:07] <ziph> Oh, they're just raw LEDs in row/column?
[12:44:10] <OndraSter> yes
[12:45:19] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, are you tired of playing 20 questions yet?
[12:45:19] <ziph> Where do you get them?
[12:45:36] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, a little :P
[12:45:47] <OndraSter> ziph, where do I get these LEDs or where does Dean get questions?
[12:45:56] <Tom_itx> what percent are legitimate?
[12:45:59] <ziph> OndraSter: Where do you get the LED modules?
[12:46:03] <OndraSter> eBay!
[12:46:04] <OndraSter> what else :D
[12:46:11] <OndraSter> $34.5 for 25 modules
[12:46:11] <ziph> Aha. :)
[12:46:12] <OndraSter> bi-color
[12:46:18] <OndraSter> 8x8 pixels
[12:46:45] <ziph> Mmm, nifty.
[12:46:50] <OndraSter> yeah
[12:46:56] <OndraSter> they are like $9/one here lol
[12:46:59] <OndraSter> single color
[12:47:14] <ziph> ld has a --just-symbols option that lets you bring in a bunch of absolute symbols into a link.
[12:47:45] <ziph> So I can use that to have two binaries on the one uC, with the second binary jumping into (and accessing parts of) the first...
[12:48:13] <ziph> The second one being loaded into flash by the first over USB.
[12:49:07] <dekroning> anyone here that has used mikron PRO for avr ? wondering if it is any good
[13:05:05] <specing> I hate it when gcc generated lds/sts instructions
[13:05:11] <specing> generates*
[13:05:33] <ziph> Instead of in/out?
[13:05:44] <OndraSter> in/out can't reach all registers
[13:05:51] <OndraSter> like.. the ones above 0x40
[13:05:56] <OndraSter> (or was it 0x64)
[13:08:15] <Tom_itx> one of those hex numbers
[13:08:18] <specing> I mean, several lds/sts in a row operating on consequtive (or how it is spelled) addresses
[13:09:05] <specing> I find ld r, Z+ and st -Z, r quite epic
[13:09:36] <ziph> specing: If it didn't the AVR Studio debugger wouldn't work for starters.
[13:11:01] * specing doesent use AVR Studio
[13:11:07] * specing doesent have a debugger anyway
[13:11:20] * specing codes 100% perfect code, since he has to
[13:11:35] <ziph> Then always leave on full optimisation and the loads and stores should be minimised.
[13:11:49] <specing> ziph: this is at -O2!
[13:12:03] <ziph> In loops?
[13:12:52] <specing> flat code
[13:13:13] <specing> increment of a 32 bit unsigned
[13:13:17] <specing> looks like this:
[13:13:31] <specing> lds r20, num
[13:13:36] <specing> lds r21, num+1
[13:13:38] <specing> ...
[13:13:45] <specing> add r20, ...
[13:13:46] <specing> ...
[13:13:53] <specing> sts num, r20
[13:13:57] <specing> (repeat 3 times)
[13:14:30] <specing> That is a total of 40 bytes!
[13:14:48] <ziph> It's a lot shorter on a 32 bit processor. :)
[13:14:48] <Tom_itx> use 8 bit numbers then silly
[13:14:55] <ziph> Haha.
[13:15:22] <Tom_itx> of course it's gonna take longer, it wasn't designed to handle them
[13:15:31] <specing> My code (asm) does the same in 18 bytes
[13:15:33] <Tom_itx> but it will give in willingly
[13:15:50] <Tom_itx> i will bug you next time i need some asm then
[13:15:57] <specing> (and I got rid of the upper byte since the variable is never longer than 20 bits)
[13:16:44] <ziph> specing: Using Z+?
[13:16:50] <specing> indeed
[13:17:05] <ziph> Does it just save code space and not cycles?
[13:17:16] <specing> it saves lots of cycles
[13:18:39] <specing> I mean, sts and st Z, r are the same in cycles
[13:18:53] <specing> There are some other things that I have optimised out
[13:22:56] <specing> Hmm
[13:23:21] <specing> Im going to finish highschool soon and I'll need to apply for a university
[13:23:27] <specing> What are your suggestions?
[13:23:42] <Tom_itx> electrical engineering
[13:23:42] <specing> Should I study CS, CS + maths or electronics?
[13:24:04] <specing> Tom_itx: why?
[13:24:05] <Tom_itx> depends what you wanna be when you grow up
[13:24:21] <specing> All in one ;P
[13:24:28] <ziph> Maths and electronics.
[13:24:32] <specing> In a nice, easy to use package
[13:24:32] <Tom_itx> take lots of math
[13:24:38] <Tom_itx> you can never go wrong with math
[13:24:52] <ziph> CS courses in most places are so corrupted and watered down that you'll barely be qualified to write web pages by the end.
[13:25:42] <ziph> And being an EE will qualify you to write software in more places than a CS degree would.
[13:26:11] <Landon> specing, check if the schools have a computer engineering degree as well
[13:26:20] <specing> What have you guys studied/are studying?
[13:26:30] <Landon> computer engineering :)
[13:26:32] <Tom_itx> i wing it
[13:26:47] <specing> Landon: What do you mean by that?
[13:27:00] <Landon> some schools have it "inbetween" CS and EE
[13:27:06] <Landon> so EE gets to be more focused on analog
[13:28:08] <Landon> but, CompE or EE are definitely what you want, I agree with ziph
[13:28:19] <Landon> (albeit not quiet as extremely)
[13:28:30] <ziph> What kind of units do you do in CompE?
[13:28:41] <Landon> 20 minutes, dungeoning
[13:28:43] <Landon> :)
[13:29:08] <ziph> If you can find a place that has a good CS course you're fine, but they're very, very few and far between now.
[13:29:21] <Landon> specing: what country are you, btw?
[13:30:02] <specing> Doesent look like it
[13:30:15] <specing> Landon: Slovenia
[13:30:40] <ziph> One way to tell is if all of the units are in Java. ;)
[13:31:17] <specing> We have java in highschool, blegh
[13:31:29] <specing> I have an A though..
[13:31:47] <Landon> ziph: basic EE courses, basic CS courses ( data structures, project management, the useful stuff)
[13:32:10] <Landon> and then specialization courses
[13:32:31] <ziph> Landon: In that case my suggestion would be EE+Math and spend the 10 minutes learning data structures on your own time. *g,d*
[13:32:38] <Landon> the 3 specializations at my school were embedded systems, architecture, and multimedia and design
[13:33:03] <specing> Landon: does your university have an english webpage?
[13:33:09] <Landon> www.ksu.edu
[13:33:10] <ziph> Landon: Do you do compiler engineering?
[13:33:24] <Landon> compilers are in the CS side
[13:33:56] <Landon> nothing stopping you from taking those courses thoguh
[13:34:00] <ziph> Really? That's a bit weird.
[13:34:18] <ziph> I would've thought a computer engineer would be very concerned about compilers and CPU architectures. :)
[13:34:23] <Landon> compE is more based around digital design than programming
[13:34:27] <Landon> ie making the architectures
[13:34:27] <ziph> (And the interaction between)
[13:34:39] <Landon> (BUT, I wasn't in embedded, so I don't know what they do specifically)
[13:34:42] <ziph> All of the architectures are built around compilers and languages now though.
[13:34:58] <Tom_itx> Landon, i forgot you were that close
[13:35:03] <Landon> (likewise, I wasn't in architecture, so I'm not familiar with their stuff :P)
[13:35:07] <Landon> Tom_itx: nebraska, right?
[13:35:12] <ziph> specing: Based on what Landon has just said, I'd recommend pure EE. :)
[13:35:14] <Tom_itx> not me
[13:35:15] <Tom_itx> Ks
[13:35:21] <Landon> really?
[13:35:35] <ziph> Digital these days is largely analog anyhow.
[13:36:09] <ziph> And you can pick up most of it fairly quickly after a first year logic class.
[13:36:19] <Landon> I've seen the EEs code :P
[13:36:26] * Landon shudders
[13:36:46] <ziph> They can't solder either.
[13:36:53] <Landon> this is also true
[13:37:05] <ziph> But that's nothing to do with the course. :)
[13:38:11] <Landon> specing: regardless, check out the classes you'll need to take for degrees
[13:38:22] <Landon> and see which fits more of what you want to do
[13:38:30] <Landon> you can easily pull in classes from other departments
[13:38:59] <ziph> If you want to be able to be involved in the design of electronics though you really need an EE.
[13:39:36] <Landon> again, check out the courses :P
[13:40:03] <ziph> And keep in mind that most CS graduates end up working on web pages or desktop Visual Basic applications to display the contents of SQL databases.
[13:40:43] <specing> Well Im definetely not going to study pure CS
[13:43:57] <ziph> What kind of work do you want to do?
[13:45:43] <Landon> Tom_itx: what region? I've been around wichita for the past couple of months
[13:46:14] <Tom_itx> wichita
[13:46:37] <Tom_itx> by friends
[13:46:50] <specing> ziph: None if possible :D
[13:47:07] <Landon> specing: business school?
[13:47:11] <ziph> specing: I recommend a Commerce degree with an option to get an MBA. ;)
[13:47:17] <specing> But anything AVR/ARM/Linux related is acceptable
[13:47:33] <Tom_itx> meh
[13:47:41] <Tom_itx> MBA isn't worth alot right now
[13:47:48] <ziph> CompE might be fine for that.
[13:48:21] <ziph> But no one will let you near a MCU/CPU board design if you don't know how to design the SMPS for it or deal with SI and EMC.
[13:50:58] * Landon tried some power supply design once... in the intro level EE course
[13:51:00] <Landon> never again
[13:51:12] <ziph> Why's that? :)
[13:51:43] <Landon> it didn't perform :P
[13:51:49] <Tom_itx> let national etc design em for ya
[13:52:11] <Landon> looking back it wasn't so bad, but kind of overwhelming for a final project since I was a little behind in class
[13:52:20] * specing is working on a SMPS for a school project
[13:52:32] <Landon> that's an impressive high school
[13:52:42] <specing> No, Im just an impressive student ;D
[13:52:48] <Landon> haha
[13:52:50] <ziph> specing: Will you be doing signals and systems at all? (Differential equations/laplace/control system theory/etc)?
[13:53:06] <ziph> I mean Landon:
[13:53:12] <specing> All the other people have project that go like this: "Minesweeper in java", "battleships on android", ...
[13:53:24] <specing> projects*
[13:53:32] <Landon> ziph: well, whatever they pay me to do ;)
[13:53:43] <ziph> Landon: I mean in Uni
[13:53:51] <Landon> oh
[13:54:19] <Landon> control system and comm theory are in the pure EE curriculum
[13:54:33] <Landon> diff eq and circuit theory, yes
[13:54:54] <ziph> Laplace transforms?
[13:55:01] <Landon> that's in circuit theory
[13:55:06] <Landon> and linear systems, come to think of it
[13:55:11] <Landon> so yes
[13:55:16] <ziph> Ah, right.
[13:55:40] <ziph> Not so bad then.
[13:55:56] <ziph> Although you want comm theory if you ever want to deal with a CPU bus these days. :)
[13:56:39] <Landon> probably, but I'd want a pure EE to do the implementation on that :P
[13:57:24] <Landon> luckily, that's what my girlfriend is in, so I have access to all of her notes/textbooks
[14:06:17] <specing> You have an EE girlfriend? Niiiice
[14:06:59] <specing> 1) Where do you find them
[14:07:07] <specing> 2) Where do you find the time?
[14:09:27] <Landon> 1) class
[14:09:28] <Landon> 2) class
[14:09:43] <specing> Meh
[14:09:47] <specing> None in my class
[14:10:01] <Landon> (there will be in EE classes ;) )
[14:10:24] <specing> REALLY?! /me is so excited
[14:10:26] <Landon> and maybe it's my perception filter, but the EE girls seem to be a bit more ... practical than CS girls
[14:10:45] <Steffanx> Maybe in your country Landon ..
[14:10:56] <specing> Are they of normal physical appearance?
[14:11:04] <Steffanx> Define: normal
[14:11:15] <Landon> specing: well
[14:11:16] <specing> Height > width?
[14:11:22] <specing> ;P
[14:11:25] <Steffanx> LOL
[14:11:28] <Landon> hah
[14:11:59] <Landon> it's like they say, the odds are good, but the goods are odd
[14:12:02] <Landon> except the odds aren't good
[14:12:27] <ziph> If you want to meet women in university pick up some psychology electives.
[14:12:54] <Landon> or take some other engineering intro courses
[14:13:03] <Landon> the other programs had more sane ratios
[14:13:18] <Steffanx> Which country is that Landon ?
[14:13:22] <Landon> US
[14:13:37] <Steffanx> Ah, now i get it
[14:13:39] <ziph> Yeah, but Psychology will be 95% women, with very high values of "a" for "a * width = height".
[14:13:58] <mrfrenzy_> haha
[14:14:23] <specing> Hmm well it is not good if a is too high
[14:14:33] <specing> The goods may break
[14:14:38] <specing> :)
[14:14:39] <Steffanx> Don't go to the netherlands then :P
[14:37:40] <Jan-> hihi avrinos :)
[14:49:19] * Jan- falls asleep in the armchair with her mouth open
[14:58:30] <specing> Jan-: This is not the appropriate place (facebook) to spam with status updates :)
[15:21:02] <specing> I see that the avr-libc team needs a C++ and a floating point library maintainer
[15:21:17] <Jan-> Bwrahsplrgh
[15:21:19] * Jan- wakes up
[15:21:27] <Jan-> who, wha, whe.... urgh
[15:23:36] * specing pulls Jan-'s RESET low
[15:24:23] <Jan-> Blergh. I was asleep!
[15:25:23] <Jan-> By the way, people who make things with active-low pins should be set on fire.
[15:26:34] * specing sets Jan- on ice.
[15:28:28] <Jan-> Aaargh!
[15:28:35] * Jan- drops several ice-cubes down the back of specing's neck
[15:29:10] <specing> I've been worse
[15:31:55] <Jan-> I'm exhausted :(
[15:32:13] <Jan-> Can we build an AVR-based device that'll plug into a socket on my head and tell my brain to be less tired
[15:32:29] * Jan- falls asleep with her head on specing's shoulder
[15:32:43] <specing> I've been trying to do that for the past 2 years
[15:32:53] <Jan-> what, fall asleep with your head on your OWN shoulder?
[15:33:01] <Jan-> you'd need 32 extra vertebrae :)
[15:33:03] <specing> the former
[15:36:26] <Jan-> I worked 8 to 10 yesterday and 8 to 7 today
[15:36:27] <Jan-> I am
[15:36:29] <Jan-> a little weary
[15:36:58] <specing> You worked 2 hours yesterday and -1 today? WTF?
[15:37:21] * Jan- pokes specing in the eye with a pencil
[15:37:24] <Jan-> THINK AGAIN
[15:37:48] * specing pokes back
[15:38:13] <specing> Your work schedule is very tiresome indeed
[15:38:29] <specing> But I still do not know how you manage to work negative hours?
[15:38:58] <Jan-> ha ha
[15:39:44] <Jan-> you're german, aren't you
[15:39:46] <Jan-> I can tell
[15:39:51] <specing> Im not!
[15:39:53] <Jan-> The faultless logic, the dogged insistence :/
[15:40:27] <Jan-> you are too!
[15:40:53] <specing> NEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNN
[15:41:08] <Jan-> See
[15:41:18] <specing> Still, Im not german
[15:41:38] * Jan- doesn't believe specing
[15:42:46] <OndraSter> hey Jan-
[15:43:10] <Jan-> hey ondra
[15:43:58] <OndraSter> more nerdy photos coming in a sec
[15:45:00] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!401&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!ANe8BxipGvUHV60
[15:45:15] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!402&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AFG-_P169PvDcJ0
[15:45:35] <Jan-> you know I can't see pictures, right
[15:45:45] <OndraSter> hmm I keep asking why without getting response
[15:45:59] <OndraSter> (sounds like regular woman eh)
[15:46:06] <specing> I can't see them either
[15:46:18] <OndraSter> why?
[15:46:26] <specing> But in my case I use a browser that no sane human on earth would use
[15:46:36] <OndraSter> links?
[15:46:37] <OndraSter> lynx?
[15:46:41] <specing> uzbl
[15:47:02] <OndraSter> getting those inductors on the board was tricky too
[15:47:08] <OndraSter> I soldered one half always
[15:47:12] <Jan-> oh sorry
[15:47:12] <OndraSter> and because I couldn't get below them
[15:47:17] <Jan-> I'm doing this using a screen reader
[15:47:22] <OndraSter> I desoldered again, put some tin on the second one too
[15:47:27] <OndraSter> oh...
[15:47:29] <OndraSter> sorry
[15:47:34] <specing> Oh right, Jan- is blind
[15:47:39] <specing> totally forgot
[15:47:59] <Jan-> s'OK
[15:48:04] <Jan-> I'd much rather you did forget :)
[15:48:14] <specing> No problem :D
[15:51:27] <Jan-> I need food
[15:51:28] * Jan- hungers
[15:51:37] * Jan- nibbles experimentally on specing
[15:51:48] <Jan-> Hmm, tastes of...
[15:51:49] <Jan-> ...german
[15:51:52] <specing> ...
[15:52:02] <Jan-> "German sausage, it's the wurst"
[15:53:19] * specing is still not german
[15:53:32] <OndraSter> I am not German
[15:53:37] <OndraSter> but I was using today tin made in Germany
[15:53:41] <OndraSter> great tin!
[15:54:23] <Jan-> tin
[15:54:25] <Jan-> er
[15:54:26] <Jan-> for what
[15:54:31] <OndraSter> soldering
[15:55:27] <Jan-> um
[15:55:31] <Jan-> normally solder is tin/lead alloy
[15:55:46] <specing> Hey Jan- , How does one solder if one is blind?
[15:56:40] <OndraSter> Jan-, this one was Pb38Cu2Sn60
[15:56:43] <OndraSter> ergo with copper
[15:56:44] <OndraSter> 0.5mm
[15:56:46] <OndraSter> perfect
[15:57:15] <Jan-> specing: I don't
[15:57:22] <Jan-> I don't drive cars, I don't fly planes, and I don't solder.
[15:57:26] <Jan-> I get phil to do it :)
[15:57:32] <OndraSter> it was about 6.3 eur for 100g
[16:03:02] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, what are those for?
[16:03:14] <OndraSter> which one
[16:03:33] <Tom_itx> both
[16:03:34] <Jan-> oh hihi Tom_itx
[16:03:36] <Jan-> how're you doing
[16:04:12] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, one is for power, second ones (the four boards) are for LED driving
[16:04:18] <OndraSter> each board contains 6 LED drivers
[16:04:42] <OndraSter> duh, after soldering crystal and loading caps, the SRAM gets hot almost immediatily
[16:04:43] <OndraSter> wtf
[16:04:53] <OndraSter> on the main processor board
[16:05:03] <Tom_itx> check for solder bridges
[16:05:09] <Tom_itx> also check for bad traces
[16:05:13] <OndraSter> there are none...
[16:05:17] <Tom_itx> with a magnifying glass...
[16:05:21] <OndraSter> it didn't complain before soldering crystal
[16:05:33] <OndraSter> I ran it for few minutes and it was cool
[16:05:44] <OndraSter> maybe it doesn't like tristated pins since xmem isn't configured...
[16:05:46] <Tom_itx> what's the crystal for? an avr?
[16:05:48] <OndraSter> ye
[16:06:08] <Tom_itx> well you need to address that or something will pop
[16:06:34] <Tom_itx> or did
[16:13:38] <OndraSter> hmm with enabled XBMK and external SRAM interface, it doesn't get hot
[16:15:58] <Tom_itx> does that need a pullup?
[16:16:11] <Tom_itx> as a default state
[16:16:30] <OndraSter> hmm it doesn't get hot even now when I break it right on the app start
[16:16:32] <OndraSter> weird it is!
[16:16:45] <OndraSter> the thing is, I don't have single 100nF cap on the board yet, waiting for them to arrive
[16:16:50] <OndraSter> so all noise is going into everything
[16:17:15] <Tom_itx> better not power it up much then
[16:18:57] <OndraSter> now it stays cool
[16:18:58] <OndraSter> wtf
[16:19:10] <Tom_itx> you'd better figure it out
[16:19:28] <OndraSter> sure I will
[16:21:21] <OndraSter> hmm some weird random eruption on the sun probably
[16:22:08] <Tom_itx> http://www.coilcraft.com/0402hl.cfm
[16:25:15] <Jan-> I need a 5V power supply
[16:25:31] <Jan-> it's silly having this huge lab power supply here just to run a tiny AVR development board which uses like 10ma
[16:25:44] <OndraSter> USB?
[16:25:53] <Jan-> Well I could do that
[16:26:04] <Jan-> but I'd prefer to minimise risk to the PC
[16:26:15] <Jan-> I know most modern ones will disconnect USB power if it goes too high current, but... y'know...
[16:27:06] <Jan-> this lab supply is like... 18" long by 8" high by 6" wide
[16:27:09] <Jan-> and weighs about 20lbs
[16:27:13] <Jan-> it's superawesome, but sheesh
[16:27:19] <Tom_itx> use an old PC supply
[16:27:31] <Jan-> Beh.
[16:27:38] <Jan-> I bet we have an old 5v wall wart somewhere
[16:28:08] <Tom_itx> http://www.wikihow.com/Convert-a-Computer-ATX-Power-Supply-to-a-Lab-Power-Supply
[16:28:33] <Tom_itx> make a SMPS
[16:29:05] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/switcher.png
[16:29:14] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/5v_switcher.jpg
[16:29:25] <Tom_itx> schematic and pic of a 3A one
[16:29:29] <OndraSter> hmm it works just fine
[16:29:33] <OndraSter> the external memory
[16:29:49] <OndraSter> http://pastebin.com/dJKQgLEk
[16:30:01] <OndraSter> sends axaxaxaxaxaxaxaxax to the serial
[16:30:02] <Jan-> aargh
[16:30:08] <Jan-> switch mode power supplies are THE EVIL
[16:30:09] <OndraSter> Tom_itx,
[16:30:32] <OndraSter> SMPS ftw
[16:30:42] <OndraSter> I'd love having 5A 3.3V PSU :)
[16:30:43] <Jan-> they're awesome when they work
[16:30:47] <OndraSter> with 5 - 18V input
[16:30:50] <Jan-> but making them work
[16:30:52] <Jan-> aaargh
[16:30:59] <OndraSter> and linear PSU
[16:31:03] <OndraSter> that would be... a lot of watts
[16:31:08] <Jan-> linear power supplies are easy
[16:31:16] <Jan-> switching ones are high octane nightmare fuel
[16:31:34] <OndraSter> I have my TPS54527 from TI
[16:31:41] <OndraSter> simple, requires really few part
[16:31:42] <OndraSter> s
[16:32:29] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, too bad you weren't here yesterday... I thought I burnt two FT232s ... :D
[16:32:32] <Jan-> yeah, but they have to be absolutely, precisely the right parts, or it'll let all the blue smoke out
[16:32:36] <OndraSter> well there was short, I thought the chips were dead
[16:32:42] <OndraSter> but no, the short was right on its pads
[16:33:08] <OndraSter> it's hard to see short on 0.65mm pitch when you have USB connector right next to it...
[16:33:44] <OndraSter> but I am glad I didn't use pullup resistor on the FT232 and tied it directly to vcc... because otherwise I wouldn't ever find it and keep wondering why the chip is in RESET
[16:33:51] <OndraSter> oh well
[16:33:53] <OndraSter> it is 2324
[16:33:55] <OndraSter> time for bath
[16:34:57] * Jan- *yawnstretch*
[16:35:28] <P3X018> What's the reason for the SRAM memory address starting at 0x60, what's between 0x00 - 0x60?
[16:37:27] <LoRez> didn't read the datasheet, eh?
[16:37:34] <P3X018> ahh wait got it
[16:37:55] <P3X018> It's been a while, didn't know where to look
[16:49:01] <OndraSter> P3X018, to the end :)
[16:50:22] <OndraSter> and it is 0x00 - 0xFF on mega128 btw (not in mega103 compatibility mode)
[16:50:33] <OndraSter> because of alllllll the .... read the datasheet! :D
[16:51:14] <OndraSter> they are wasting 97B on mega128 though
[16:51:20] <OndraSter> because 9E - FF are not used
[16:51:25] <OndraSter> but are reserved
[16:51:37] <OndraSter> there are more reserved actually along the way
[16:51:53] <OndraSter> I could fit whole stack into it!
[17:12:37] <OndraSter> gn
[17:15:00] <P3X018> I see...
[17:37:08] <Tom_itx> maybe i'll build up a couple 32U4 boards tonight
[17:37:29] * Tom_itx checks the part inventory
[17:49:23] <Tom_itx> specing,
[17:49:31] <Tom_L> http://www2.electronicproducts.com/MIT_announces_first_free_online_course-article-fajb_free_MIT_course_feb2012-html.aspx
[17:50:32] <Tom_itx> or anybody
[17:52:56] <specing> INTERESTING
[17:53:09] <specing> Im not sure I can spare 10h/week though
[17:53:23] <Tom_itx> you won't get a better offer
[18:28:58] <Vectoray> hi
[18:31:14] <Vectoray> wee. new mobile :3
[18:45:36] <Vectoray> this cell sucks tho, t9 :/
[18:49:52] <Vectoray> question, a resistor can be used to drop voltage?
[19:00:48] <Kevin`> Vectoray: yes, in several situtions
[19:09:59] <Vectoray> and a shotky diode in parallel to limit voltage?
[19:10:33] <Vectoray> just guessin
[19:12:24] <Vectoray> will figure out. bye
[19:44:25] <vectory> finally home
[20:06:33] <Kevin`> a resistor+diode is rarely the most efficient choice for a voltage regulator
[20:11:19] <CapnKernel> But boy is it cheap!
[20:11:21] <CapnKernel> (Like me)
[20:11:31] <vectory> hm