#avr | Logs for 2012-02-13

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[03:47:24] * amee2k snogs impulze
[03:47:26] <amee2k> erm
[03:47:31] <amee2k> by that, i mean Hi!
[03:47:37] <impulze> yep yep!
[03:47:44] <impulze> it's how pros communicate
[03:48:39] <GeorgeJ> Hello again folks.
[03:48:57] <GeorgeJ> Quick offtopic question, is there any channel for ARM?
[03:55:07] <amee2k> hmm i would be surprised if not
[03:55:33] <amee2k> ##arm seems to exist but not a whole lot of people in there
[03:56:01] <amee2k> ##stm32 as well
[03:56:30] <amee2k> just try /list'ing a couple names
[03:56:47] <GeorgeJ> I see, thanks!
[03:57:24] <GeorgeJ> Wondering if it's safe to lurk around the STM channel, I'm primarely targeting LPC's and don't want to be throw off. Oh well.
[03:58:07] <amee2k> worst case, some eager beaver op comes by and starts peening on the topic like a 5 yrs old
[03:59:18] <Tom_itx> GeorgeJ, edev and stm32 are 2 i know of
[04:00:19] <GeorgeJ> Tom_itx: Your zlog pastes a broken link! :(
[04:00:33] <Tom_itx> which one?
[04:00:40] <GeorgeJ> From stm32.
[04:02:12] <Tom_itx> my isp went down, hang on
[04:24:29] <Sgt_Lemming> is it bad that I am watching a movie and hear an arcade game, and recognise it by the sound alone?
[04:26:43] <amee2k> not really, no
[04:28:29] <amee2k> 11:17 < amee2k> not really, no
[04:29:59] <amee2k> huge LOL at x-files episode 3x10 "731"... its hilariously full of bloopers... mulder flipping through some japanese guy's notebook and every page looks exactly the same
[04:31:27] <amee2k> and on a scene set on a railroad track in the middle of nowhere (where they're trying to dump a train car with a bomb) you can see a parasol or some kind of tent and filming equipment in the background XD
[04:32:28] <amee2k> and a bright red back that looks like a first aid kit
[05:23:37] <RikusW> just finished populating my second pcb :)
[05:24:13] <RikusW> HVPP topboard for my programmer
[05:24:40] <RikusW> using a st662
[05:30:58] <amee2k> could it be that making custom programmers is a popular pastime around here? :P
[05:32:53] <RikusW> its fully stk500 compatible
[05:33:03] <amee2k> nice :)
[05:33:25] <RikusW> you've seen my site right ?
[05:33:40] <amee2k> hmm the one you wanted to take off line a while ago?
[05:33:53] <RikusW> the topboard got a dragon compatible pinout for HVPP/HVSP
[05:34:20] <RikusW> you're confusing me with rue..
[05:34:22] <RikusW> http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home
[05:34:31] <amee2k> ooh, right. then i haven't seen it
[05:34:48] <RikusW> topboard is the exact same size
[05:34:53] <RikusW> V1 was bigger....
[05:35:28] <RikusW> can do jtag too
[05:35:31] <amee2k> haha arduino support
[05:35:34] <RikusW> and soon dW
[05:35:41] <RikusW> without adc...
[05:35:52] <RikusW> had to hack the arduino studio to support it...
[05:36:08] <amee2k> lol
[05:36:28] <RikusW> and add m32u2 support to gcc in a hackish way...
[05:36:44] <RikusW> arduino 0018's gcc is old
[06:57:10] <amee2k> anyone got thoughts on directly transfering digital content to photographic film? i'm trying to achieve something in the order of 10k-50k dpi on 35mm high resolution b/w film
[06:58:44] <amee2k> my best idea so far was posterizing as a 5x5 array and printing on paper, hanging it from the wall and making a shot with a normal camera :/
[06:59:05] <ziph> amee2k: Photoprocessing machines use lasers.
[06:59:49] <ziph> amee2k: They're more or less identical to the old film processing machines except they replace the exposure area with a laser.
[06:59:49] <amee2k> yeah. they are the size of a washing machine and start at a few grand
[06:59:55] <ziph> :)
[07:00:01] <ziph> What kind of film?
[07:00:38] <amee2k> normal "135 / ISO1007" 35mm film for still photography
[07:00:57] <ziph> There are places that make old style 35mm slides from digital images.
[07:01:07] <amee2k> at that kind of resolution?
[07:01:44] <mrfrenzy_> amee2k: what about bastardizing an HD projector, change to a smaller lamp and put together a lens that fits an analog camera
[07:02:14] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: you did look at my resolution ballpark, yes?
[07:02:24] <ziph> amee2k: How are you going to find a camera that does that resolution? :)
[07:02:55] <amee2k> i'm hoping a used SLR will do it at a reasonable price
[07:02:57] <mrfrenzy_> I just ignored it as unreasonable ;)
[07:03:26] <ziph> The SLR will be reasonable, I can't think of any 35mm format lens that would do that well though.
[07:04:54] <ziph> You could try getting some 2000 dpi printing done and try using some kind of custom optics...
[07:04:54] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: thats only like 400+ Lp. on film, which is very reasonable for b/w film stock
[07:06:00] <amee2k> i've been wondering if i could violate a microscope in reverse, but the exposure area would be very small so it would waste a lot of film
[07:06:44] <mrfrenzy_> well with the dpi you want you are going to need to make MANY exposures with any kind of lcd projector, or do it the paper way
[07:06:50] <mrfrenzy_> probably cheaper to just send it away
[07:08:04] <amee2k> yeah, thats why i quickly got rid of the idea of using LCDs for it
[07:08:07] <ziph> amee2k: Are you familiar with PSF's in optics?
[07:08:46] <amee2k> vaguely
[07:09:08] <amee2k> i've been mainly looking at what the film can do so far. not so much the optics
[07:09:24] <mrfrenzy_> what about building some kind of box with an lcd that has controllable backligt, and some kind of galvo controlled lenses
[07:09:53] <mrfrenzy_> put the camera in bulb mode, aim the lcd at one corner of the film, turn on backligt briefly, reaim, repeat
[07:10:41] <amee2k> i have no idea how to build a mechanical setup like that
[07:11:05] <mrfrenzy_> me neither, but it should be possible
[07:11:06] <amee2k> i'd probably try making fixed optics and moving the film under it
[07:11:16] <amee2k> sort of like a tiny router table
[07:11:16] <mrfrenzy_> well sure that should also work
[07:11:32] <mrfrenzy_> there are micromanipulators that can move stuff VERY slow
[07:11:55] <mrfrenzy_> just need to find optics that make it small enough
[07:12:03] <amee2k> yeah :P
[07:12:18] <ziph> If you're going to that length you might as well use a laser.
[07:12:42] <ziph> Then lens aberrations won't be as much of an issue.
[07:12:47] <mrfrenzy_> does it need to be 35mm film? what if you could expose photo paper directly
[07:12:48] <amee2k> or save up 5 grand for an exposure machine
[07:12:56] <mrfrenzy_> makes it a lot bigger and easier
[07:13:06] <amee2k> well, the point was exactly to have it on film, not paper
[07:13:15] <mrfrenzy_> maybe there are cheap machines to move data from paper to film?
[07:13:19] <ziph> amee2k: E-mail some of the places that do film exposure and ask.
[07:13:41] <amee2k> i've got a laserjet. if size wasn't the objective i could just make a huge stack of paper from it
[07:20:28] <Valen> amee2k: how many pixels do you want?
[07:20:34] <Valen> in total
[07:21:45] <amee2k> a lot :P
[07:22:28] <Valen> define alot
[07:22:31] <amee2k> 75k by 50k would be nice
[07:22:39] <amee2k> on a 36x24mm frame
[07:23:12] <Valen> isn't that way way way more than even HD film is shot at these days?
[07:23:31] <amee2k> its more than a crappy hd blu-ray, yes
[07:23:39] <Valen> is this for a photo or for a movie?
[07:24:36] <amee2k> decent quality b/w film will resolve details fine enough so that kind of resolution would be practical though
[07:24:47] <amee2k> single still frames only
[07:24:55] <Valen> IMAX, including IMAX HD and OMNIMAX: approximately 10,000×7000 (7000 lines) resolution. It is about 70 Mpix,[9] which may be compared to the biggest resolution, single sensor digital cameras(as of January 2012) - 80 Mpix
[07:25:06] <amee2k> maybe helps if you think of it as a kind of ghetto microfilm
[07:25:12] <Valen> The actual resolution of 35 mm camera original negatives is the subject of much debate. Measured resolutions of negative film have ranged from 25-200 lp/mm, which equates to a range of 325 lines for 2-perf, to (theoretically) over 2300 lines for 4-perf shot on T-Max 100.[3][4][5] Archivists generally agree that 4k scanning of 35mm is more than adequate for archival purposes.[6] However some photography sources gives 5380 x 3620 as the reso
[07:25:20] <amee2k> Valen: thats for color film :P
[07:25:37] <ziph> amee2k: What about the optics out of an old microfiche?
[07:25:37] <amee2k> b/w film has 5-10 times the resolution
[07:28:00] <Valen> a single LED and a big XY plotter
[07:28:41] <amee2k> ziph: hmm thats not a bad idea, actually
[07:29:05] <Valen> you can do the alignment on that one
[07:29:20] <Valen> also the G code could run to several hundred gig
[07:29:29] <Valen> how are you generating the image?
[07:30:25] <amee2k> at that kind of resolution probably on the fly from vector graphics and/or a set of pre-posterized lower resolution images
[07:31:22] <amee2k> it would need a huge pile of RAM to buffer it all, and handling it on disk is going to be as slow as rendering on the fly imo
[07:31:37] <Valen> your not going to be sucking the data out that quick
[07:31:43] <Valen> "exposure time" would take hours
[07:31:59] <amee2k> when running a single led, yes >_>
[07:32:20] <amee2k> i'd also need a tiny LED for it, like 00501
[07:32:58] <Valen> depends on a number of things
[07:33:05] <Valen> you could just put a pinhole over it
[07:33:07] <Valen> anyway bed time
[08:43:07] <OndraSter> ey
[08:43:09] <OndraSter> so Tom_itx
[08:43:11] <OndraSter> my package came
[08:43:13] <OndraSter> but I had to pay the tax :(
[08:43:19] <OndraSter> 19% or w/e is it now
[08:43:39] <OndraSter> they probably can't lie to DHL :P
[08:43:57] <amee2k> package from china?
[08:44:39] <OndraSter> ye
[08:44:40] <amee2k> i'm fairly sure they can. if they didn't they probably don't want to
[08:45:27] <OndraSter> hmm
[08:45:28] <OndraSter> well
[08:45:29] <amee2k> i don't remember the shipping comp, but a friend of mine regularly orders from dx and glb and they always put something ridiculously low (<50$ for a 200$ order) on the package
[08:45:33] <OndraSter> I paid smth like $25
[08:45:38] <OndraSter> yes
[08:45:39] <OndraSter> they do
[08:45:41] <OndraSter> but that is regular post
[08:47:24] <Tom_itx> :/
[08:47:25] <ziph> Do you pay 19% on stuff you buy locally?
[08:47:35] <OndraSter> well it is in the price I pay, yes
[08:47:57] <ziph> It differs depending on who you are?
[08:48:11] <OndraSter> no
[08:49:09] <OndraSter> it is VAT
[08:49:32] <ziph> The problem here is the shipping companies add $120 or so if they need to charge anything at all.
[08:53:30] <ElMonkey> meh, fedex has ginourmous fees here
[08:53:33] <ElMonkey> or was it ups...
[08:53:40] <ElMonkey> one or the other
[08:53:49] <ElMonkey> DHL just charges a nominal processing fee
[08:54:39] <cyanide> HELLO MEN
[08:54:52] <cyanide> whats up
[08:59:39] <OndraSter> http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/407434_2596166989021_1400123387_31920111_1729239526_n.jpg
[08:59:41] <OndraSter> IT FITS
[09:00:52] <amee2k> nice :)
[09:01:22] <amee2k> how long until you get it running?
[09:02:38] <LmAt> What's a good avr chip to start with?
[09:03:05] <cyanide> depends on the purpose
[09:08:22] <LoRez> LmAt: an arduino
[09:08:39] <LmAt> LoRez; tahnks.
[09:08:54] <LmAt> cyanide; Sorry I didn't see your response, if you type my nick, I'll notice faster;
[09:09:32] <LmAt> cyanide; I'm wanting to make my organ digital.
[09:10:39] <LmAt> cyanide; it's a 50s organ with lots of vacuum tubes, so I want to change it and put a microproc in it and read the inputs from the keys and stops, and route the data to either a sound module in the organ (that I would have to make later, too), or a PC, in a format something like midi (but I don't want to use midi).
[09:10:53] * amee2k started with a pair of DIP packaged atmega88 and a cheap noname ISP board
[09:13:14] <LmAt> cyanide; For instance, I've been looking at PIC18F4550, and it seems like a good match with 24 IO pins, USB, eusart, i2c, spi, etc.
[09:13:14] <amee2k> sounds like a lot of processing for a mega88
[09:13:14] <amee2k> i'd almost suggest using a purpose made DSP over an 8-bit mcu
[09:13:14] <LmAt> amee2k; My goal here is low-colt.
[09:13:14] <LmAt> oops. cost.
[09:13:21] <ziph> LmAt: MIDI over USB would be fine?
[09:13:39] <LmAt> ziph; perhaps, but I don't want to have to write midi or read it. I'd rather a simple custom protocol.
[09:13:47] <amee2k> i'm not into signal processing like that, but i'd say a DSP is massively better suited to your kind of application
[09:14:08] <ziph> LmAt: If you use http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php you basically just have to submit note numbers.
[09:14:14] <LmAt> amee2k; Perhaps in the sound-generation module, but I need to be able to read the 250 or so inputs from the organ and serialize them.
[09:14:23] <amee2k> porting extensive analog circuitry to digital is usually neither cheap nor trivial
[09:14:41] <amee2k> 250 digital inputs?
[09:14:55] <amee2k> at what sampling rate?
[09:15:10] <LmAt> ziph; Thanks for the link, that looks useful if I forray into USB land.
[09:15:24] <LmAt> amee2k; I haven't decided what's good yet.
[09:15:31] <ziph> LmAt: The DSPIC would also be worth looking in to
[09:15:41] <amee2k> lots of AVRs don't even have 25 pins. few have >100
[09:15:45] <LmAt> amee2k; Perhaps something like... scanning all the inputs at 10 hz?
[09:15:57] <ziph> LmAt: Or an ARM like the STM F4's, which have a cheap development board with a good quality audio codec.
[09:15:58] * LmAt looks up DSPIC
[09:16:00] <amee2k> i don't think any have more than 8 ADC channels at all
[09:16:09] <ElMonkey> 10Hz sounds awfully low for music :)
[09:16:59] <amee2k> LmAt: i'd recommend you closely inspect the parts you want to keep, thats primarily the keyboard itself from what i understand, no?
[09:17:01] <Vectory> 10 Hz? flight of the bumble bee has faster notes :)
[09:17:11] <Vectory> or so i would think
[09:17:23] <Vectory> LmAt, do you know chipophone?
[09:18:08] <cyanide> whats a good 3.3v regulator outputting about 1-2A?
[09:18:14] <cyanide> smd
[09:18:21] <ziph> cyanide: From what input voltage?
[09:18:36] <LmAt> sorry, boss needs to talk
[09:18:38] <LmAt> brbb
[09:18:38] <OndraSter> amee2k, no idea
[09:18:44] <OndraSter> ordered remaining parts yesterday
[09:18:50] <OndraSter> should arrive on friday
[09:18:59] <cyanide> ziph, 5v - 20v?
[09:19:17] <ziph> cyanide: You'll need an SMPS then.
[09:19:20] <cyanide> it will be connected to 9v adapter, battery and/or a car battery outputting abou 13.5 to 14V
[09:19:34] <OndraSter> I am using now TPS54527 from TI... they are not cheap, but able to do 5V - 18V input and upto 6V output
[09:19:36] <OndraSter> with great efficiency
[09:19:40] <OndraSter> and mostly output of upto 5A
[09:19:51] <OndraSter> and require minimum external hardware
[09:20:48] <ziph> cyanide: In that case you'll also want reverse polarity protection and to have a good read of http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf
[09:20:49] <Vectory> some lmX17 or 27? the 317 only does up to 200 mA iirc, but maybe other variants do more?
[09:21:13] <OndraSter> isn't lm317 LDO?
[09:21:24] <Vectory> not really );
[09:21:31] <Vectory> well, dopwn to 1.8 V
[09:22:01] <Vectory> but the Voltage difference is too high (drop out voltage=)
[09:22:04] <ziph> cyanide: You'll also need to ensure the ripple from the SMPS doesn't exceed the supply requirements of your design.
[09:22:05] <OndraSter> lm317 = drop out
[09:22:07] <OndraSter> I said SMPS
[09:22:26] <OndraSter> LM138 = 5A
[09:22:29] <ziph> cyanide: 50-100mA isn't uncommon.
[09:22:35] <ziph> 50-100mV ripple rather.
[09:22:43] <Vectory> k, I gots to go. see yas
[09:23:15] <OndraSter> bb
[09:23:43] <cyanide> ziph, what does this use? http://tronixstuff.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/akafuino-x-1.jpg
[09:23:56] <cyanide> ziph, it wont be connected to all at the same time lol
[09:24:14] <cyanide> either batteries, a car battery or a dc adapter
[09:24:21] <ziph> cyanide: A linear regulator; the current won't be 2A on that board though.
[09:24:45] <cyanide> how much do you guess then?
[09:24:52] <ziph> For an AVR?
[09:24:58] <cyanide> yes
[09:25:01] <cyanide> xmega
[09:25:08] <OndraSter> these were half amp or 1amp on these boards usually
[09:25:24] <cyanide> 1A is fine for me
[09:25:35] <cyanide> got a good linear regulator recommendation?
[09:25:56] <ziph> cyanide: Check the datasheet, I can't see it exceeding 100mA though.
[09:26:10] <ziph> cyanide: It depends heavily on your clock speed.
[09:26:48] <cyanide> 32mhz
[09:27:48] <ziph> Have a look in the datasheet. Your power supply can easily exceed the cost of your uC if you overdesign it.
[09:48:14] <LmAt> ziph; Does DSPIC mean Digital Scanning PIC?
[09:48:41] <LmAt> amee2k; I don't need analog inputs (ADC), just digital inputs (on-off).
[09:49:05] <LmAt> amee2k; Yes, I want to keep the keyboard.
[09:49:17] <LmAt> ElMonkey; Vectory; yeah, 10 hz is probably slow...
[09:49:40] <LmAt> Vectory; Nope, never heard of chipophone, I'll look it up.
[09:52:39] <amee2k> are you sure the keyb doesn't put out analog signals?
[09:52:53] <amee2k> because lots of musical keyboard kind of keyboards do that
[09:54:10] <LmAt> Vectory; I see the chipophone, and saw it before. That's roughly what I want.
[09:54:21] <LmAt> amee2k; Of course it does' but I want to install switches under the keys.
[09:54:27] <LmAt> amee2k; So I can get digital signals from it.
[09:54:55] <amee2k> in that case i'd recommend you sell the vintage organ and start a new design from scratch
[09:54:59] <LmAt> amee2k; Currently, it's completely analog, vacuum tubes and all.
[09:55:10] <LmAt> amee2k; no way! Why?
[09:55:14] <amee2k> would be a shame to ruin it
[09:55:47] <LmAt> amee2k; It doesn't work very well. A particular vacuum tube is out taking out low F and B (8') with it.
[09:56:04] <LmAt> amee2k; It's a toaster (no pipes), and not worth much musically, sentimentally, or anything else.
[09:56:20] <LmAt> amee2k; If you're into really old electrical organs...luckily no one is.
[09:56:32] <LmAt> amee2k; I'll plan to sell the vacuum tubes though :)
[09:56:34] <amee2k> someone else will find a suitable replacement for the dead tube
[09:57:03] <LmAt> amee2k; That's only on the flute and diapason. The pulse stops (solo stops like trumpet, clarion, clarinet, vox humana, etc.) are completely unreliable.
[09:57:10] <amee2k> build a keyb matrix on protoboard with tact switches, and get a dev board for a nice fast DSP or ARM based chip
[09:57:44] <LmAt> yes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgZ8Z_6OQf4&feature=related
[09:57:57] <LmAt> amee2k; I don't want to spend that much :)
[09:58:01] <amee2k> it'll sound like shit if you manage to pull it off the way you're planning to
[09:58:20] <LmAt> amee2k; I think I'll be ready to prototype when the parts come in (today or tomorrow) with PIC18f4550
[09:58:30] <amee2k> there is a reason why even shitty toy electronic keyboards have analog sensors in the keys
[09:58:34] <LmAt> amee2k; I haven't made any plans on sound-production.
[09:58:48] <LmAt> amee2k; And what is that? Why would I want an analog sensor in the keys?
[09:59:32] <amee2k> because you need the input resolution if you want to produce any elaborate music with it
[09:59:56] <amee2k> do you have programming experience on a normal computer?
[10:00:37] <LmAt> amee2k; Yes, I'm a professional developer.
[10:00:49] <amee2k> try writing a program that uses the normal keyboard you have for typing to produce music
[10:00:54] <LmAt> amee2k; I don't know what you mean. I want to know if the key is pressed or not pressed. Why would I care if it's "almost" pressed.?
[10:01:49] <amee2k> compared to a microcontroller your desktop has a huge amount of processing power so use it. i bet if you try to play anything more elaborate than chopsticks in chinatown it'll sound like shit
[10:01:51] <LmAt> amee2k; I haven't decided on a method of sound generation yet... But I have written a program to create music from scratch, sample by sample.
[10:02:14] <LmAt> amee2k; hmm, I may take you up on it. What do you want to hear?
[10:02:42] <amee2k> because keys are supposed to sound differently depending on how you hit them
[10:03:04] <LmAt> amee2k; Not on organ.
[10:03:23] <amee2k> o.O
[10:03:41] <LmAt> amee2k; When you press the key, a bunch of levers move and the palette opens letting air into the pipe. It's either open or closed.
[10:03:46] <LmAt> amee2k; If it's only a little open, the sound is crap.
[10:04:23] <amee2k> are you sure the electronic one doesn't take analog components into account?
[10:04:44] <LmAt> amee2k; It's all analog, but as far as the keypress goes, I'm quite sure, the key is eiter pressed or not.
[10:05:09] <amee2k> that can happen in extremely subtle ways in analog circuits. hard to be sure unless the keys have a trigger buffer on the input
[10:05:10] <LmAt> amee2k; There are little pieces of metal that stick out of a vertical rod. When the key is pressed, the pieces of metal touch horizontal rods corresponding to stops.
[10:06:11] <amee2k> okay, thats really quite digital then
[10:07:03] <LmAt> amee2k; Now for creating the sound, that's difficult.
[10:07:24] <LmAt> amee2k; Right now, I'm just creating a module that serializes the keypresses (and stop states). Where it goes from there...
[10:07:54] <LmAt> amee2k; If it goes to my PC, I can encode it to MIDI and play it on some MIDI instruments, or I could use my program to generate the sound...
[10:08:05] <amee2k> a loooong row of shift registers can do that
[10:08:28] <amee2k> getting it into the computer fast enough is going to get tricky though
[10:08:34] <LmAt> amee2k; I assume I'll want to be able to play it without a PC, so I'll need an embedded way to generate sound, so a DSP chip may be the right way to go.
[10:08:48] <LmAt> amee2k; My buddy had a good idea using 16 muxes each with 16 channels.
[10:09:13] <LmAt> amee2k; Each mux takes 4 digital inputs to select its input channel. 15 of them can feed into the 16th.
[10:09:14] <amee2k> hmm that could work too
[10:09:38] <amee2k> how many keys do you have?
[10:09:43] <LmAt> amee2k; And the missing channel on the 1 master mux would read all high 0xffff
[10:09:58] <LmAt> amee2k; Well, 61+61+32+ stops
[10:10:07] <LmAt> amee2k; I decided that 240 inputs is over-engineered sufficiently.
[10:10:31] <amee2k> i'd still put some kind of latch on the keys
[10:10:44] <amee2k> so you know that all keys have been sampled at the same time
[10:11:00] <LmAt> amee2k; hmmm, that's interesting. I haven't thought about that.
[10:11:10] <amee2k> i'd suppose that assumption would make writing the software easier too
[10:11:15] <OndraSter> what's wrong on bunch of 165s
[10:11:21] <OndraSter> :)
[10:11:27] <LmAt> OndraSter; What's wrong with them is that I don't know what they are. brb
[10:11:35] <OndraSter> PISO registers
[10:11:49] <amee2k> < amee2k> a loooong row of shift registers can do that << this, i suspect ;)
[10:11:52] <OndraSter> yeah
[10:12:13] <amee2k> i'm suspecting 74165 and that being a 595 in reverse
[10:12:22] <OndraSter> yeah
[10:12:26] <OndraSter> 165 it should be
[10:12:27] * amee2k . o O ( this channel needs a jargon file >_< )
[10:12:30] <OndraSter> if my memory serves right
[10:12:42] <LmAt> amee2k; A glossary?
[10:12:50] <amee2k> of sorts
[10:12:54] <LmAt> yup, yup.
[10:13:03] <amee2k> the line was supposed to be a reference o *the* jargon file
[10:13:04] <LmAt> Let's see, can we edit www.avrfreaks.net?
[10:13:06] <amee2k> to*
[10:13:15] <LmAt> amee2k; oh, never heard of it. ICKD?
[10:13:27] <amee2k> "ICKD" ?
[10:13:30] <LmAt> Do pisos latch?
[10:13:31] <amee2k> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_file
[10:13:40] <OndraSter> LmAt, ye
[10:13:44] <OndraSter> they load it at once
[10:13:56] <LmAt> amee2k; xkcd
[10:13:57] <LmAt> lol
[10:14:11] <LmAt> OndraSter; So is there an input that tells them to latch or reset?
[10:14:16] <OndraSter> yeah
[10:14:17] <OndraSter> there is pin
[10:14:19] <amee2k> yep
[10:14:22] <OndraSter> that latches all inputs
[10:14:29] <amee2k> and another to shift out the contents
[10:14:29] <OndraSter> and then regular SCK-DIN-DOUT
[10:14:33] <LmAt> amee2k; I see.
[10:14:39] <OndraSter> 165 is async load
[10:14:41] <amee2k> you can put them one after the other to create arbitrary widths
[10:14:42] <LmAt> OndraSter; ahh.
[10:14:47] <LmAt> OndraSter; What's async about it?
[10:14:50] <amee2k> (well, you can with 595s anyway)
[10:14:51] <LmAt> amee2k; sure.
[10:15:05] <LmAt> amee2k; Oh...wait. So it will take one bit input from another pin? neato!
[10:15:06] <OndraSter> sync ones must be SCKed also with LATCH signal
[10:15:09] <OndraSter> async don't
[10:15:18] <LmAt> OndraSter; hmm
[10:15:19] <OndraSter> amee2k, isn't 595 SIPO?
[10:15:52] <amee2k> OndraSter: iirc its "SI(S+P)O" >_>
[10:15:58] <amee2k> basically SPI
[10:16:01] <OndraSter> 595 can do both ways?
[10:16:05] <LmAt> gotta eat, brb
[10:16:08] <OndraSter> well yes
[10:16:12] <OndraSter> but serial in
[10:16:13] <OndraSter> parallel out
[10:16:15] <OndraSter> he needs parallel in
[10:16:21] <amee2k> i know
[10:16:28] <amee2k> thats why i said "595 in reverse"
[10:16:46] <amee2k> its serial in, parallel out, but also has another serial out for daisy chaining
[10:16:47] <OndraSter> ah, I misunderstood <amee2k> (well, you can with 595s anyway)
[10:16:51] <OndraSter> now I get how you ment it :)
[10:16:58] <amee2k> hehe :)
[10:16:59] <OndraSter> yes, you can chain 165s
[10:17:16] <amee2k> hence "SI(S+P)O"
[10:17:22] <OndraSter> yeah
[10:17:23] <OndraSter> for 595
[10:17:36] <amee2k> hence why we need a jargon file >_<
[10:17:44] * amee2k contemplates
[10:27:12] <LmAt> oky
[10:27:43] <LmAt> amee2k; hmmm, how would I use a SIxO to scan a keyboard?
[10:27:55] <OndraSter> you connect each key to one of the inputs on the keyboard
[10:27:58] <OndraSter> one key on the keyboard
[10:28:05] <OndraSter> and put all the registers into chain
[10:28:13] <OndraSter> then load them all at once
[10:28:16] <OndraSter> (pin LD)
[10:28:27] <OndraSter> connect this to SPI on your ATmega/whatever
[10:28:34] <OndraSter> and via SPI load all the XY bytes
[10:28:41] <OndraSter> (depends on how much registers is there)
[10:28:48] <LmAt> OndraSter; I'm not following. Each key on the keyboard to one of the inputs on the keyboard?
[10:28:49] <amee2k> LmAt: you'd use a PISO (parallel in, serial out)
[10:28:56] <LmAt> amee2k; okay, that makes sense.
[10:29:04] <OndraSter> yeah, PISO
[10:29:15] <amee2k> it has like 8 input pins, a latch input, a clock input, a serial input and a serial output
[10:29:30] <OndraSter> exactly
[10:29:43] <amee2k> you connect all latch and clock inputs together, and the serial output of one IC to the serial input of the next one
[10:29:52] <amee2k> then you connect each key to one of the parallel inputs
[10:30:28] <LmAt> amee2k; So it's (S/P)i(S/P)o ?
[10:30:29] <amee2k> to read it out, you pull the latch signal active, which loads the current key status into the register chain. then you start pulsing the clock signal and read the bits out one at a time
[10:31:04] <LmAt> amee2k; sure. That's what I was thinking until you said "SI(S/P)O"
[10:31:18] <amee2k> the whole SIPO/PISO deal is like FIFO/LIFO/whatever just that you substitute S and P for F and L
[10:31:25] <OndraSter> yeah
[10:31:27] <OndraSter> parallel in
[10:31:33] <OndraSter> and serial in
[10:31:37] <OndraSter> and serial out
[10:31:52] <OndraSter> ergo, it first latches to the output the data that were latched with LD signal
[10:32:02] <OndraSter> and then it sends to the output the data it receives from the serial input
[10:32:16] <LmAt> okilie dokilie.
[10:32:34] <OndraSter> I am latching 96 LED rows in my project :)
[10:32:37] <amee2k> you'll probably do yourself a favour by making it 256 inputs instead of 240, because it is a multiple of 32, 16 and 8, which are all common bit sizes for data types
[10:33:45] <LmAt> amee2k; the 240 has to do with the 16 muxes.
[10:34:10] <amee2k> yeah, but just saying
[10:34:12] <LmAt> amee2k; And also... that was his idea, the muxes, my idea is using a PIC chip to scan IO pins.
[10:34:24] <LmAt> amee2k; Using 16 digital IOs, I can scan 240 switches.
[10:34:45] <LmAt> I'm super-excited about this technique because I thought it up myself ^_^
[10:34:58] <amee2k> as for the processing system i don't think a poopy 8-bit avr is going to cut it. not even for just feeding the raw key data to a PC
[10:35:19] <LmAt> amee2k; lol, I think an 8-bit PIC will cut it :o
[10:35:27] <amee2k> what clock rate?
[10:35:36] <LmAt> amee2k; Oh, unless you're talking about audio generation.
[10:35:57] <LmAt> amee2k; The 18F that I've been working with can go 48M I think.
[10:36:11] <LmAt> amee2k; But if you're talking about the generation of audio, I'm clueless on that front so far.
[10:37:12] <LmAt> OndraSter; What does your nick mean?
[10:38:48] <amee2k> i mean, i'm looking at it like this. you've got 240 keys and i'd say you want at least a sampling rate of 30-50Hz or so. not for the amount of information, but to control latency that would leave you with some 7200-12000 values per second to process.
[10:39:37] <amee2k> most 8 bit AVRs top out at some 20-24MHz, that would leave you with only ~2k clock cycles per key sample
[10:40:29] <amee2k> note that i pulled the 30-50Hz figure out of my afterburner. you'll definitely want a second opinion on that one
[10:40:52] <amee2k> if you're clever thats going to get the data into the computer on a serial port but it will get you into a serious bottleneck for generating audio
[10:41:06] <OndraSter> LmAt, Ondra = my real name, Ster = something that GOogle made up when I was registering at gmail
[10:41:07] <OndraSter> many years ago
[10:42:57] <amee2k> as for digital synths, from what i've seen they mostly work like this... first processing stage is sort of a pulse-shaping algorithm that translates the key status into a sort of envelop curve to model the instrument's response
[10:43:49] <amee2k> e.g. delays from pushing the key to it actually producing any sound, distortion when the key is pressed or released, and frequency shifts while the final tone stabilizes, and so on
[10:44:42] <LmAt> OndraSter; lol
[10:44:58] <LmAt> amee2k; I'm not interested in doing digital audio on the same chip.
[10:45:22] <amee2k> that happens for each key pretty much the same. these values are then fed into waveform generators that are specific for each key and parametrized to generate the desired notes. then the outputs are mixed together to produce a single output stream
[10:45:40] <LmAt> amee2k; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CD4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fww1.microchip.com%2Fdownloads%2Fen%2Fdevicedoc%2F39632c.pdf&ei=Azw5T_WvI9Sz0QGM3JXBAg&usg=AFQjCNHZVl6c9qloNCp8qDTvI87kK4rfzg&sig2=AChWynYFoLQXRb9uQy68Jg
[10:45:46] <amee2k> well, you'll have to dive into that eventually
[10:45:58] <LmAt> amee2k; doubtless.
[10:46:03] <amee2k> also, didn't you say earlier you want to be able to use it without a host computer?
[10:46:24] <LmAt> amee2k; The way my analog instrument does it is, it has a wave generator for each possible output frequency and three places to tap it: flute, diapason, and pulse.
[10:46:55] <LmAt> amee2k; Right, I'm willing to use another chip over i2c or something.
[10:47:23] <amee2k> then why feed it into the PIC first?
[10:47:52] <amee2k> why not go straight for a decent DSP that does everything
[10:48:06] <LmAt> amee2k; I was trying to cut down costs.
[10:48:20] <LmAt> amee2k; PIC == $4.
[10:48:34] <amee2k> the row of shift registers pretty much gives you something you can handle as generic SPI
[10:48:45] <LmAt> amee2k; Right, but can that go to PC?
[10:48:48] <amee2k> i'm not really sure what converting that to i2c or uart first is going to do
[10:49:14] <LmAt> amee2k; Can I use a PC uart to read the signal from piso?
[10:49:57] <amee2k> serial port == rs232 == UART with funny voltage levels
[10:50:13] <OndraSter> FT2232 or something like that
[10:50:14] <OndraSter> can do SPI
[10:50:16] <OndraSter> on USB
[10:50:19] <OndraSter> not sure at what speeds tho
[10:50:29] <amee2k> how about a buttpirate
[10:50:33] <amee2k> err, buspirate >_>
[10:50:52] <OndraSter> haha
[10:51:58] <LmAt> amee2k; That's more money.
[10:52:04] <LmAt> :)
[10:53:13] <amee2k> feeding it to the computer probably gives you an advantage when developing the algorithms for the actual synthesizer
[10:53:57] <amee2k> but other than general experience i'd say there is little gain because you most certainly need to rewrite everything from scratch to put it on a DSP
[10:55:37] <LmAt> amee2k; What do you mean by "put it on"?
[10:56:01] <LmAt> amee2k; I don't think I'll need to write everything from scratch. I want to be able to freely change between (or include) PC and internal sound.
[10:56:16] <LmAt> amee2k; I want to be able to record performances, for instance, etc.
[10:56:17] <amee2k> write firmware for the DSP that implements the same algorithm
[10:56:53] <LmAt> amee2k; Ahh, also, what I was thinking is that I could get a sound card and figure out how to interface with that... ^_^
[10:56:57] <amee2k> adding a function to the DSP to just pass the raw key data through should be easy enough
[10:57:36] <amee2k> DSPs often have facilities to interface directly with an audio codec
[10:57:44] <amee2k> something like AC97 or I2S
[10:57:59] <amee2k> thats sort of the general idea, even
[10:58:37] <LmAt> hmm
[10:58:52] <amee2k> also, porting code from a computer to an embedded system is a quite non-trivial procedure because you can't rely on having most of the facilities you have on your computer
[10:58:55] <LmAt> I thought a codec is a protocol. It sounds like you're talking about it like a piece of hardware.
[10:59:06] <LmAt> amee2k; Right, that much I understand.
[10:59:35] <CapnKernel> I think the shift register is the best idea, because of the simultaneous latching of all values
[10:59:50] <amee2k> for example, the C standard library for AVRs is often only of limited use because it is huge and relatively slow
[10:59:52] <OndraSter> plus
[10:59:55] <OndraSter> daisy chain = fun
[10:59:57] <OndraSter> ALWAYS
[11:00:11] <CapnKernel> You won't be able to do audio generation on the AVR, but capturing notes and sending MIDI data is very possible
[11:00:15] <CapnKernel> daisy chain FTW
[11:00:17] <amee2k> LmAt: yeah, a hardware codec is the chip on a sound card that does the actual sound generation thing
[11:00:17] <LmAt> CapnKernel; So you think that it's quite important to read all values at the same time?
[11:00:37] <CapnKernel> LmAt: I do, but that's just my opinion
[11:00:57] <OndraSter> plus you have really few traces to do
[11:00:58] <OndraSter> on the board
[11:00:59] <amee2k> usually a combination of several DACs and ADCs suitable for audio processing with a more or less simple interface
[11:01:02] <LmAt> amee2k; Oh. Then how do I "install" a codec without opening (let alone turning off) the computer?
[11:01:21] <CapnKernel> Codec has several meanings
[11:01:28] <LmAt> CapnKernel; ahh
[11:01:32] <CapnKernel> It's a contraction of "coder/decoder"
[11:01:50] <amee2k> a software codec is a similar concept but entirely different approach
[11:02:14] <CapnKernel> For example, software codecs know how to compress and decompress audio and video streams.
[11:02:37] <LmAt> CapnKernel; gotcha.
[11:03:05] <amee2k> the concept is a more or less special case of a transcoder. and one that usually translates between one relatively standard thing and one rather non-standard thing
[11:03:14] <LmAt> amee2k; So I could get a DSP board or chip that can talk to an AC97?
[11:03:19] <CapnKernel> The meaning of codec in PC hardware nowadays has come to indicate the electrical and signalling interface between the motherboard's core logic and the sound chip
[11:03:29] <amee2k> such as MP3 <-> PCM for a software codec, or I2S <-> line audio for a hardware one
[11:03:31] <LmAt> CapnKernel; ahh
[11:03:39] <LmAt> amee2k; uh-huh.
[11:04:33] <amee2k> i'm not a dsp guy, but from what i've seen lots of dev boards already come with an audio codec on it
[11:04:42] <amee2k> some DSPs even have one built in
[11:05:11] <CapnKernel> DSPs eat this kind of task (polyphonic sound generation) for breakfast.
[11:05:24] * amee2k points at CapnKernel
[11:05:32] <amee2k> thats why people keeps suggesting them :P
[11:05:40] <CapnKernel> I once worked on a DSP project which had to sniff v.90 modem traffic and decode it, and reconstruct it out the other end.
[11:05:56] <LmAt> amee2k; So what's the point of a DSP? Why don't I just use a codec?
[11:06:10] <asteve> CapnKernel: bleeding edge speed
[11:06:11] <amee2k> because the DSP is programmable and can do all kinds of fancy things
[11:06:40] <CapnKernel> We were doing 8 calls simultaneously
[11:06:48] <CapnKernel> With one DSP
[11:06:49] <amee2k> like translate between your key inputs and an audio output
[11:07:11] <amee2k> and it is built for working on streamed data with controllable latency
[11:07:31] <CapnKernel> LmAt: When you say "Why don't I just use a codec?", in that context, what do you understand a context to be?
[11:07:39] <CapnKernel> Sorry, what do you understand a codec to be?
[11:08:04] <LmAt> CapnKernel; A piece of hardware with a well-defined interface that inputs some digital data, and outputs some analog data corresponding to audio.
[11:08:09] <amee2k> the codec chip is what you'd put on your DSP to get a "normal" audio line out or spdif out or whatever
[11:08:35] <CapnKernel> LmAt: A codec like that will take a high-speed digital stream. Something has to generate that digital stream.
[11:08:37] <amee2k> same as you'd put the multiplexers or shift registers on the DSP to get your key status information into it
[11:09:09] <amee2k> the DSP does the whole sound synthesis shebang inbetween to "translate" between the two types of signals
[11:09:09] <CapnKernel> For example, someone presses an A on the keyboard, and your keyboard AVR generates a MIDI event for that key
[11:09:16] <asteve> shift registers because * love shift registers
[11:09:25] <CapnKernel> At the other end, you want a 440Hz signal to come out of the speaker
[11:09:27] <OndraSter> everybody loves shift registers
[11:09:40] <CapnKernel> So you need to be feeding a very high speed digital stream to the codec
[11:09:55] * amee2k idly cuddles his pet 595
[11:09:56] <CapnKernel> All the +ve and -ve numbers that make up that 440Hz signal
[11:10:11] <OndraSter> I have got here 4x 165 and 4x595 connected on breadboard
[11:10:12] <CapnKernel> Something needs to turn that MIDI note event into the digital stream
[11:10:12] <OndraSter> nonstop :)
[11:10:21] <CapnKernel> DSPs are very good at that.
[11:10:26] <LmAt> CapnKernel; oh, like each sample in the output?
[11:10:30] <CapnKernel> Yes
[11:10:34] <amee2k> yep
[11:10:38] <LmAt> CapnKernel; So a codec is just a dac?
[11:10:53] <amee2k> well, a fancy and very application specific one
[11:11:16] <CapnKernel> The meaning of codec in the PC hardware space has changed to mean a serial digital interface by which sound sample data can be fed to the sound chip
[11:11:33] <LmAt> hmm, okay. So the chip tells which sound to make, the DSP figures out how to make that sound digitally, and the codec makes a speaker vibrate in the correct way.
[11:11:43] <CapnKernel> Mind you, PCs nowadays can do sample generation in software
[11:11:46] <amee2k> you'll usually get several DACs and ADCs in one codec, and in configurations that are common for audio output channel numbers
[11:11:55] <LmAt> CapnKernel; Right, that's what I do in my program.
[11:12:10] <CapnKernel> Linux and Windows can both take MIDI events and generate the sample data in software.
[11:12:20] <LmAt> CapnKernel; sure.
[11:12:34] <LmAt> CapnKernel; I wrote a program that was supposed to create techno music. I think it can do it, but I haven't sat down to do it.
[11:13:10] <LmAt> CapnKernel; It creates sine waves, sine sweeps, and triangle waves, and can synthesize on top of that (echo, envelope, pan, combine, etc.)
[11:13:35] <amee2k> http://www.ti.com/product/tlv320aic33 << I2S codec that has several DACs, ADCs, AGC and microphone power supply, as well as a headphone amp kind of thing for driving small speakers
[11:13:35] <LmAt> (by synthesize I mean create)
[11:13:52] <LmAt> amee2k; How am I supposed to use that? It's not DIP
[11:13:54] <LmAt> ^_^
[11:14:02] <amee2k> it was an example :P
[11:14:26] <LmAt> amee2k; I was interested in ac97. In fact, I'd be interested in anything I could find laying around in an old computer :)
[11:14:35] <LmAt> I gotta go, chili cook off started a few minutes ago.
[11:14:38] <OndraSter> ac97 are EVERYWHERE
[11:14:44] <OndraSter> I have two or probably more desoldered here
[11:14:44] <amee2k> http://www.komputer.de/zen/images/QFN_QFP_TQFP_LQFP_16_80toDIP1.jpg << breadboard adapters for fancy SMT stuff exists too
[11:14:49] <LmAt> This is very enlightening, thanks a ton, amee2k , OndraSter and CapnKernel !!
[11:15:03] <amee2k> you're welcome :)
[11:15:04] <LmAt> amee2k; Awesome! Now we're talking!
[11:15:08] <OndraSter> np
[11:15:11] <LmAt> OndraSter; Could you send one oveR?
[11:15:13] <LmAt> ^_^
[11:15:15] <OndraSter> :D
[11:15:26] <LmAt> thanks again, ttyl
[11:15:26] <OndraSter> just grab any old motherboard
[11:15:28] <OndraSter> and desolder it
[11:15:31] <OndraSter> matter of seconds
[11:15:54] <OndraSter> anything from 2000 - 2005 will most likely have it
[11:15:56] <amee2k> yeah, onboard sound has been a standard feature for the better half of a decade or so
[11:16:05] <OndraSter> Realtek one most likely
[11:16:19] <amee2k> you can probably find some kind of codec in almost every old computer on the trash
[11:16:34] <CapnKernel> LmAt: I got a prezzie for you: http://www.tosa-qld.org/VTPO/docs/Midification_of_an_Organ.pdf
[11:16:37] <OndraSter> or grab old soundblaster ISA card and hax it xD
[11:16:38] <amee2k> as always with scavenging, you'll have to be a bit flexible and use what you can find
[11:18:05] <OndraSter> they also usually use TL072 opamps
[11:18:06] <OndraSter> well
[11:18:06] <OndraSter> often
[11:18:45] <amee2k> as a side note, audio codecs are like 2$ on digikey
[11:19:28] <amee2k> well, 5$ if you want singles, but still
[11:20:51] <amee2k> UDA1345TS
[11:20:56] <amee2k> 3.20$
[11:27:28] <amee2k> rue_shop2: did you set up a cronjob to randomly stab tobbor twice a day now? :P
[11:28:26] <OndraSter> oh my, I am so proud of myself on those boards LOL
[11:28:31] <OndraSter> they look so cool
[11:28:49] <OndraSter> I feel like a pro lol
[11:28:59] <Steffanx> Feel .. :P
[11:29:05] <OndraSter> yeah
[11:29:06] <OndraSter> I know lol
[11:47:54] <amee2k> OndraSter: be sure to post pix when it runs :)
[11:48:16] <OndraSter> I sure will
[11:48:29] <amee2k> hm... cake must have been invented by a true kitchen geek
[11:49:09] <amee2k> everyone else would just have eaten the dough without ever considering to let it sit in an oven until it looks all dry and hard
[11:49:27] <Tom_itx> yeah..
[11:50:34] <Landon> well
[11:50:44] <Landon> we know which ones got salmonella and didn't pass on those genes :P
[11:50:51] <amee2k> lol
[11:51:14] <Steffanx> You'll die anyway Landon
[11:51:21] <amee2k> 0.0
[11:51:31] <Landon> not after I make cake!
[11:51:33] <amee2k> the UK has salmonella infestation
[11:51:45] <CapnKernel> Likewise beer, that's not drinkable for a good two months after bottling.
[11:51:45] <amee2k> oh, wait, jan isn't here is she?
[11:51:57] <Steffanx> Jan- not here?!
[11:52:05] <Steffanx> Now she's really sick?
[11:52:10] <Steffanx> !seen jan-
[11:52:11] <tobbor> Jan- was last seen in #avr on Feb 12 18:39 2012
[11:52:24] <Landon> what, I thought it was a him!
[11:52:26] <amee2k> oh meh. i'll just put the artificial panic module back on the shelf then
[11:52:32] <Steffanx> No, He is a she afaik
[11:52:45] <amee2k> apparently it is supposed to be short for janine :P
[11:52:47] <CapnKernel> And she's not Swedish or Dutch either
[11:52:59] <CapnKernel> My mum is a Jan
[11:53:01] <Steffanx> Does that matter CapnKernel ?
[11:53:18] <Steffanx> Jan is a male name here CapnKernel ..
[11:53:34] <CapnKernel> Well there's a lot of people assume Jan must be a male of Northern European origin, and are quite surprised when she isn't.
[11:53:35] <amee2k> CapnKernel: well, it would be somewhat worrysome if your mom was a he
[11:53:53] <CapnKernel> In my mum's case, Jan is short for Janet.
[11:53:55] <Landon> I just remember (her) stating that she was a he :\
[11:54:16] <Steffanx> So CapnKernel is also dutchy for 50%? :P
[11:54:26] <CapnKernel> Huh?
[11:54:34] <Steffanx> Not ok :P
[11:54:49] <amee2k> can split personalities have different gender?
[11:54:51] * amee2k runs and hides behind the sofa
[11:55:02] <Steffanx> Yeah, ofcourse amee2k
[11:55:20] <amee2k> that could explain some things
[11:55:37] <Steffanx> Ah, so phil is her/his other personality .. now i get it
[11:55:45] <amee2k> 0.0
[11:56:00] <Steffanx> She talks about Phil once in a while
[11:56:35] <amee2k> i know
[11:56:45] <Steffanx> ok ok
[11:56:56] <amee2k> from the context some kind of caretaker or partner of hers
[11:57:27] <amee2k> when there is a his personality and a her personality, does it average out to an it? o.O
[11:58:00] <CapnKernel> It depends on whether they're little endian or big endian.
[11:58:07] <Steffanx> So it becomes and 'it'?
[11:58:20] <amee2k> 0.0
[11:58:50] <Steffanx> _-_
[11:59:03] <amee2k> -_-
[11:59:09] <Steffanx> _-_
[11:59:13] <amee2k> -_-
[11:59:19] <Steffanx> -
[11:59:28] <amee2k> i think you should have your nose position corrected
[11:59:41] <Steffanx> No, a face lift gone wrong
[11:59:43] <CapnKernel> orz
[11:59:43] <amee2k> it looks like you're wearing it on your forehead
[11:59:47] <amee2k> ...
[11:59:58] * amee2k idly maps mapee
[12:14:23] <LmAt> CapnKernel; Thanks! A couple important notes to differentiate this from mine.
[12:14:37] <CapnKernel> :-)
[12:14:53] <CapnKernel> They are using shifting.
[12:15:10] <LmAt> "Either way, every keyboard note, pedal, piston ... will need to have wires connected from them to the MIDI modules"
[12:15:21] <LmAt> Like I said, I can scan 240 switches with 16 wires :o
[12:15:39] <CapnKernel> You can scan any number with 2 or 3
[12:15:50] <LmAt> OndraSter; What boards are you proud of?
[12:16:02] <OndraSter> mine!
[12:16:05] <OndraSter> :P
[12:16:12] <LmAt> CapnKernel; lol. I'm not using shifting!
[12:16:16] <CapnKernel> Yes I was wondering the same thing, and I'm desperate to see a pic!
[12:16:41] <LmAt> CapnKernel; How do you scan any number using 2 or three? You have to have a wire from each switch to the PISO.
[12:16:56] <CapnKernel> I'm talking pins on the micro
[12:17:11] <OndraSter> CapnKernel, pix?
[12:17:12] <OndraSter> http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/407434_2596166989021_1400123387_31920111_1729239526_n.jpg
[12:17:15] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!393&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AOjW_vYgegrBDTA
[12:17:18] <OndraSter> https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=40bf7833586103ab&resid=40BF7833586103AB!392&parid=40BF7833586103AB!111&authkey=!AHUosH4xpe8qIQ0
[12:17:20] <OndraSter> more 2morrow
[12:17:20] <LmAt> Oh yeah, I DO need an ADC for the swell pedal.
[12:17:22] <OndraSter> on better light
[12:17:43] <CapnKernel> OndraSter: Awesome!
[12:17:44] <LmAt> OndraSter; whoa
[12:17:55] <LmAt> OndraSter; What is that first one? A light array?
[12:17:59] <OndraSter> yeah
[12:18:02] <OndraSter> four "per products" :)
[12:18:08] <LmAt> what are you making?
[12:18:26] <OndraSter> my final exam :P
[12:18:40] <LmAt> CapnKernel; Thanks again for the link!
[12:18:48] <LmAt> OndraSter; You're going to get A++?
[12:18:55] <OndraSter> hopefuly A++++!
[12:19:00] <CapnKernel> LmAt: np
[12:19:02] <LmAt> :-O
[12:19:14] <LmAt> CapnKernel; Looks weak, now I know what I'm up against and I see that I should be much more cofident :o
[12:19:16] <OndraSter> and actually gonna use it hopefuly even for my bachelor work lol
[12:19:24] <OndraSter> I just realized that there is middle school name on it tho..
[12:19:27] <OndraSter> hopefuly won't mind
[12:19:35] <LmAt> OndraSter; What's your final? What's the project? What's it going to do?
[12:19:42] <OndraSter> final exam...
[12:19:44] <OndraSter> graduation?
[12:19:48] <OndraSter> for the US guys
[12:20:00] <OndraSter> project... driving 32x96 LEDs :)
[12:20:04] <OndraSter> 32x48 bi-color
[12:20:11] <OndraSter> through ATmega and USB
[12:20:24] <LmAt> OndraSter; Is it to display text?
[12:20:30] <OndraSter> anything
[12:20:31] <LmAt> OndraSter; What US guys?
[12:20:38] <OndraSter> well US has graduation
[12:20:38] <LmAt> OndraSter; What protocol?
[12:20:42] <OndraSter> that's upto me
[12:20:51] <GeorgeJ> OndraSter: Any PWM going on?
[12:20:58] <OndraSter> only "soft" pwm
[12:21:06] <OndraSter> can't do real HW PWM
[12:21:10] <GeorgeJ> 32x48 channels?
[12:21:16] <OndraSter> yeah, impossible
[12:21:19] <OndraSter> I am driving two rows at once
[12:21:33] <OndraSter> and quickly switching between them
[12:22:15] <GeorgeJ> so 2x48?
[12:22:22] <OndraSter> at once
[12:22:25] <OndraSter> either lit up
[12:22:27] <OndraSter> or shut off
[12:22:32] <OndraSter> 2x96 actually
[12:22:42] <OndraSter> 24 shift registers...
[12:22:45] <OndraSter> 8bit
[12:22:57] <GeorgeJ> OndraSter: Stop using enter as punctuation please.
[12:23:05] <OndraSter> :D
[12:23:10] <GeorgeJ> So, 2x96 8bit pwm channels? :-?
[12:23:12] <GeorgeJ> Hmm ..
[12:23:16] <OndraSter> no PWM channels
[12:23:41] <GeorgeJ> Oh, so no brightness control?
[12:23:42] <OndraSter> like I said, soft PWM channels... ergo I will be switching them at few kHz
[12:23:44] <CapnKernel> Good night all
[12:23:50] <OndraSter> gn CapnKernel
[12:23:57] <OndraSter> and hopefuly manage to get at least 2 bit of "soft" PWM
[12:24:02] <GeorgeJ> OndraSter: That's not really PWM.
[12:24:03] <amee2k> you can combine matrix driving and pwm neatly
[12:24:12] <OndraSter> GeorgeJ, well, not
[12:24:15] <GeorgeJ> That's a matrix.
[12:24:16] <OndraSter> that's why I said "soft"
[12:24:27] <GeorgeJ> A PWM modulates pulses, hehe.
[12:24:30] <OndraSter> if the LED is supposed to be half bright, you can blink it only each odd time
[12:24:41] <GeorgeJ> A software PWM does the same thing as a hardware PWM.
[12:25:02] <OndraSter> I said soft, not software :P
[12:25:28] <GeorgeJ> Still not PWM. Hehe.
[12:25:29] <amee2k> i.e. soft, as in mild, almost, somewhat, maybe
[12:25:51] <amee2k> you can also vary brightness by varying the lenght of the column pulses (assuming row-select)
[12:26:02] <GeorgeJ> A PWM modulates the width of a pulse. Switching a port on an off quickly dosen't mean it's neccesarely PWM.
[12:26:20] <amee2k> if your micro has nothing better to do i'd at least try to get 4 bit brightness control out of it
[12:26:20] <OndraSter> call it whatever you want
[12:27:00] <amee2k> imo matrix driving is a form of multiplexing. nothing to do with PWM unless you use it for brightness control in one form of another
[12:27:09] <OndraSter> simply said, the average current will differ in the end
[12:27:39] <amee2k> although pulse skipping does that too and is not pwm :/
[12:27:47] <OndraSter> yes, pulse skipping
[12:27:56] <OndraSter> let's forget I ever called it soft PWM and let's call ti pulse skipping
[12:28:01] <OndraSter> happy now?
[12:28:12] <amee2k> i'd at least try to do pwm as well though
[12:28:23] <GeorgeJ> OndraSter: We're only trying to help you get the terminology right.
[12:28:46] <OndraSter> amee2k, how?
[12:28:55] <OndraSter> 8bit shift registers
[12:29:00] <OndraSter> that drive the rows
[12:29:27] <amee2k> select row, turn on all columns with brightness >0, in a loop decrement all brightness values and turn off columns when they reach 0. repeat with next row
[12:29:44] <amee2k> cutting column pulses short to vary brightness would be actual PWM
[12:30:10] <amee2k> and you could use it combined with cycle skipping to get more bits per pixel
[12:30:11] <OndraSter> not sure the A6275 can switch that fast really
[12:30:23] <OndraSter> dude, usually people write small PHP application
[12:30:33] <OndraSter> this is way, way, way ,way more than anybody else ever did.
[12:30:38] <amee2k> :)
[12:30:39] <OndraSter> I can keep that to bachelor's work
[12:30:41] <OndraSter> 2 years from now
[12:30:42] <OndraSter> err
[12:30:43] <OndraSter> 3
[12:30:43] <LmAt> I don't think I get it. My chip has a max232 on it. Why? The chips has a eusart, what's the poin of the extra ic?
[12:31:08] <GeorgeJ> OndraSter: What country are you from?
[12:31:13] <OndraSter> CZE
[12:31:15] <ureif> LmAt: find out what the MAX232 does and the mystery will be solved!
[12:31:16] <amee2k> LmAt: the USART's output voltage will be 0V for low and the MCU's supply voltage for high
[12:31:19] <GeorgeJ> Same here in .ro
[12:31:34] <LmAt> ureif; I looked at the data sheet but it is still a mystery to me :(
[12:31:37] <GeorgeJ> Everyone's doing crappy PHP.
[12:31:42] <LmAt> amee2k; What's an MCU?
[12:31:43] <ureif> LmAt: what does a MAX232 do ?
[12:31:54] <amee2k> micro controller unit
[12:31:58] <amee2k> or something like that
[12:32:03] <ureif> Motorola Cellphone User ?
[12:32:30] <LmAt> ureif; let's see....
[12:32:31] <amee2k> RS232 has funny voltage levels. what the max232 does is boost the available supply voltage (usually 5V) to produce something around 10V and -10V suitable for RS232 compatibility
[12:32:49] <amee2k> </spoiler>
[12:33:06] <LmAt> ureif; "The MAX232 is a dual driver/receiver that includes a capacitive voltage generator to supply tie/eia-232-F voltage levels from a single 5-V supply.
[12:33:08] <LmAt> "
[12:33:18] <ureif> LmAt: don't quote the datasheet. Tell me what it does.
[12:33:35] <LmAt> ureif; Right, the translation from datasheet to human-generated description has alluded me :(
[12:33:42] <ureif> eluded.
[12:33:45] <LmAt> doh
[12:33:59] <LmAt> ureif; Sounds like it's a voltage converter.
[12:34:14] <amee2k> yep :)
[12:34:16] <ureif> LmAt: yes.
[12:34:24] <LmAt> ureif; It'll change an input voltage to an output voltage of your choice. But why the "232" in the title?
[12:34:34] <OndraSter> because RS232?
[12:34:53] <amee2k> IC type numbers are mildly arbitarary usually
[12:35:50] <amee2k> something that fits into a numbering scheme that only the manufacturer knows, if there is a more meaningful scheme than sequentially allocating available part numbers at all
[12:35:51] <LmAt> OndraSter; But if it's just a voltage converter, it could do lots of stuff besides rs232, righT?
[12:35:58] <OndraSter> no
[12:36:03] <OndraSter> it does just voltage converter to RS232 levels
[12:36:06] <OndraSter> to and from
[12:36:10] <OndraSter> to TTL
[12:36:19] <LmAt> OndraSter; Oh, I thought it was much more general than that.
[12:36:37] <amee2k> a mild convention is using 2-4 letters followed by a number of digits, where the letters are usually indicative of the company that initially came up with the part
[12:36:49] <LmAt> Oh goodness... ICL232, ST232, ADM232, HIN232. eek
[12:36:57] <amee2k> like MAX for maxim, LT for linear technology, AD for analog devices, ST for ST semi
[12:37:07] <LmAt> amee2k; ahh
[12:37:09] <Steffanx> LM ..
[12:37:11] <OndraSter> NS for National Semi..
[12:37:11] <Steffanx> :P
[12:37:23] <amee2k> yeah ;P
[12:38:07] <amee2k> the numbers are at least partially random. look at 7400 and 4000 series for example
[12:38:23] <amee2k> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_4000_series_integrated_circuits
[12:38:33] <LmAt> "When a MAX232 IC receives a TTL level to convert, it changes a TTL logic 0 to between 3 and 15v, and changes Logic 1 to between -3 and -15." that sounds pretty general to me, OndraSter
[12:38:47] <amee2k> except that the numbering starts at 4000, there is very little wisdom in the part numbers
[12:38:56] <OndraSter> these voltage levels are used in RS232
[12:39:04] <OndraSter> and considering that it has RX and TX channels...
[12:39:09] <OndraSter> it is made for serial
[12:39:10] <OndraSter> RS232
[12:39:20] <OndraSter> you can use it for anything in the end
[12:39:49] <amee2k> ICs that have several identical blocks inside (like amplifiers, logic gates and what not) often have one of the numbers indicate the number of identical blocks
[12:40:29] <amee2k> like a TL082 and a TL084 are really the same thing, but one has two "TL08" type amplifiers inside and the other four
[12:41:20] <Steffanx> And the 81 has one :P
[12:41:48] <amee2k> microcontrollers and other more complex parts often adopt the same idea and have some important spec like the memory size in the part number. like "atmega168" would break down like this:
[12:43:08] <amee2k> "AT" atmel, manufacturer; "mega" atmega series (vs. attiny, atxmega, at90, ...); "16" amount of flash memory inside in kB; "8" megaX8 series (vs. megaX0, megaX1, ...)
[12:43:54] <amee2k> so mega48, mega88, mega168 and mega328 are largely identical and only differ in the amount of memory included
[12:45:02] <amee2k> (since the memory size is squeezed inbetween the "mega" and the "8" it is usually abbreviated with an uppercase "X" in cases where the exact size is not relevant)
[12:46:04] <amee2k> like for example, someone might suggest to look at "megaX8" when someone else has asked which atmegas are available in DIP28 package
[12:46:56] <amee2k> to add to the confusion there is also a plain "atmega8" without any flash size specified, which is a slightly lower featured version of the megaX8
[12:47:05] <OndraSter> the first time I saw "megaX8" I thought you were talking about xmega8 :D
[12:47:27] <amee2k> well, these exist as well, yes >_<
[12:47:34] <amee2k> or i think they do anyway
[12:48:28] <amee2k> another thing about part numbers is that manufacturers often have a fetish for indicating slight variations of largely the same part by appending funny letters
[12:49:54] <amee2k> take an LM317 voltage regulator as example. LM317EMP is SOT223 package, 1A current limit and 0-125°C temperature range
[12:50:32] <amee2k> LM317MDT is TO252 or D-PAK package, -40-125°C temperature range and 0.5A current limit
[12:50:59] <amee2k> oh, MDT was 0-125°C. my bad
[12:51:22] <amee2k> -40-125°C is LM317AMDT >_>
[12:51:25] <amee2k> getting the idea?
[12:52:18] <amee2k> generally, the further to the end a letter is, the less significant is the property or variant that it indicates
[12:53:49] <amee2k> with the rough hierarchy being manufacturer/designer, model series, model variant, <some important application specific spec>, small time stuff (like speed grade, temperature range, package, transport media, whatever)
[12:54:12] <amee2k> am i talking too much? :P
[12:55:52] <amee2k> what is usually *not* significant are any dashes, blanks or underscores in the type number. sometimes they are, but most of the time they are simply added to improve readability
[12:56:15] <amee2k> like writing "LM317-AMDT" instead of running it all together
[12:57:36] <amee2k> if in doubt, the authoritative source of information what a part has or doesn't have, or can do or can't do, is the datasheet. when you buy parts always make sure you get the datasheet too. preferably before buying, of course
[12:58:30] <amee2k> for generic parts, the datasheet from any manufacturer will usually do to get an idea of how to use the part. like i just used my National Semi datasheet on LM317s
[12:59:14] <amee2k> but when ordering always review the datasheet of the particular manufacturer. while "LM317" would be fairly generic, all the appendages to indicate special properties are almost never universal
[13:00:20] <amee2k> and since i killed the conversation now i'm off taking a shower :P
[13:22:59] <gkwhc> Hey guys, is there a way to "recycle" RAM? I am trying to put petitFatFS on my uC (not AVR platform, but i think the concept applies) with only 4Kb of RAM...
[13:23:14] <gkwhc> *4KB
[13:31:38] <OndraSter_> recycle?
[13:32:43] <GeorgeJ> gkwhc: Yes there are dynamic memory allocation functions. But they're pretty heavy in terms of code.
[13:32:49] <GeorgeJ> gkwhc: malloc/free
[13:33:49] <gkwhc> GeorgeJ: oh you mean they consume alot of program memory?
[13:35:37] <GeorgeJ> gkwhc: Usually, yes.
[13:36:01] <asteve> you can malloc on an avr?
[13:36:13] <asteve> with only 32kb do you really want to be malloc'ing :)
[13:36:40] <GeorgeJ> Malloc/free is like 1-2k max.
[13:36:43] <jacekowski> you can
[13:36:44] <GeorgeJ> Afaik.
[13:36:48] <jacekowski> but it's bad idea
[13:37:01] <GeorgeJ> Not always,
[13:37:16] <jacekowski> most of the time
[13:37:47] <ziph> You forgot about fragmentation.
[13:37:57] <GeorgeJ> I did?
[13:38:03] <ziph> Someone did.
[13:39:25] <asteve> maybe it's a good idea if you were addressing secondary memory
[13:40:48] <ziph> Searching a heap for malloc and free can be time consuming (and non-deterministic) too.
[13:43:13] <OndraSter_> I thought about making some kind of swap for AVRs :))
[13:43:28] <OndraSter_> smallest as possible, with swapping onto I2C/SPI SRAM
[13:43:49] <ziph> If it doesn't involve an MMU that's usually called overlays.
[13:45:18] <ziph> And unless your mission is to get on Hack of the Day, just get a different uC. :)
[14:21:25] <OndraSter_> When you want to have fun:
[14:21:28] <OndraSter_> buy HP InkJet
[14:21:31] <OndraSter_> consumer HP InkJet
[14:21:37] <OndraSter_> (talking about printers ofc)
[14:39:40] <OndraSter_> devilsadvocate, was it you who asked me about itead?
[14:39:45] <OndraSter_> no wait, it was dekroning
[14:39:50] <OndraSter_> I knew it was desomething
[15:30:56] <Tom_itx> OndraSter_, so when do we get to see your board?
[15:31:31] <RikusW> I got to see V2 of mine today :)
[15:31:53] <RikusW> http://sites.google.com/site/megau2s/home/STK500 artwork is at the bottom
[15:31:54] <Tom_itx> V3 will be the keeper
[15:32:03] <RikusW> V2 is :)
[15:32:21] <RikusW> made V1 yesterday
[15:32:25] <RikusW> V2 today
[15:32:38] <RikusW> HVPP topboard
[15:32:45] <RikusW> Using the st662
[15:32:58] <Tom_itx> ahh
[15:33:06] <RikusW> same pinout as the dragon
[15:37:33] <RikusW> HVPP is _fast_ like half a second to read a m8 :)
[15:38:34] <RikusW> but connecting it _isn't_ unless you have a premade adapter
[15:41:11] <OndraSter_> Tom_itx, as in populated and working?
[15:46:41] <OndraSter_> hmm is there some ultraduino with, let's say, mega1280/anything similar, external SRAM 128kB - 1MB (I know, I know!), bunch of other SPI chips etc?
[15:47:44] <OndraSter_> xmegas have one major problem... their IOs are not 5V tolerant... or are they now?
[15:48:22] <dirty_d> that meeting was way too long
[15:48:24] <RikusW> there is a m2560 on iirc
[15:48:37] <RikusW> *one
[15:48:42] <dirty_d> OndraSter_, why do you need to use 5V?
[15:49:23] <OndraSter_> interfacing 3V3 device to 5V MCU works... not the opposite
[15:49:27] <RikusW> OndraSter_: I have a AT32UC3A3256 xplain board with 8MB ram its $29
[15:49:28] <OndraSter_> in case of xmega
[15:49:40] <OndraSter_> that's 32bit AVR
[15:49:43] <RikusW> OndraSter_: level translators ?
[15:49:52] <dirty_d> OndraSter_, what mcu are you using?
[15:50:03] <dirty_d> OndraSter_, just use a transistor to shift the level
[15:50:08] <RikusW> how many lines need to interface ?
[15:50:16] <OndraSter_> it was universal project board I had on my mind
[15:51:01] <dirty_d> OndraSter_, nevermind i was thinking mpu
[15:51:05] <dirty_d> my brain is freid
[15:51:07] <dirty_d> fried
[15:54:56] <GeorgeJ> Fred.
[15:56:21] <OndraSter_> I see that all those cheap HD44780 are 5V only
[15:56:27] <OndraSter_> and 3.3V ones are not as cheap
[15:56:33] <OndraSter_> ($2.5 vs $8)
[16:00:46] <OndraSter_> also, where are 100pin xmega256...
[16:02:05] <OndraSter_> hmm
[16:02:07] <OndraSter_> avr32
[16:02:11] <OndraSter_> 512k flash, 64kB RAM
[16:02:15] <OndraSter_> same as mega2560
[16:03:30] <OndraSter_> so, RikusW
[16:03:35] <OndraSter_> 32bit AVRs, are they any good?
[16:04:01] <RikusW> haven't really used mine
[16:04:12] <RikusW> only updated its firmware
[16:04:23] <RikusW> haven't actually written any yet
[16:04:25] <shorted_neuron> OndraSter, you can use cheap dual-supply, bidirectional level shifters to interface with your 5V stuff, for example : http://www.ti.com/product/txb0108
[16:04:41] <RikusW> but 3A3 supports hi speed usb :)
[16:04:47] <RikusW> thats why I got it
[16:05:43] <RikusW> but 8 bit avr is much simple
[16:05:44] <RikusW> r
[16:05:45] <OndraSter_> not as neat as using it directly, shorted_neuron
[16:06:57] <shorted_neuron> agreed, but higher capability CPUs are increasingly lower and lower voltage
[16:07:06] <OndraSter_> hmm
[16:07:09] <OndraSter_> well
[16:07:12] <OndraSter_> I have my project right now
[16:07:12] <shorted_neuron> you may be disappointed if you pick a system based on 5V compatibility
[16:07:17] <OndraSter_> and another 10 on my "want to do"
[16:08:03] <shorted_neuron> those level shifters are super easy to use, and you can buy em in many different widths to suit what you're doing
[16:08:33] <OndraSter_> 74hc244 in the end works too
[16:09:44] <shorted_neuron> yup, but is that one bidirectional?
[16:09:55] <OndraSter_> oh right
[16:09:58] <OndraSter_> forgot about that
[16:11:59] <OndraSter_> well xmegas don't look that bad
[16:12:04] <OndraSter_> they are still good ol' AVR
[16:29:45] <Tom_itx> OndraSter_, there are stages of done
[16:33:19] <OndraSter_> stages of done?
[16:33:35] <Tom_itx> <OndraSter_> Tom_itx, as in populated and working?
[16:33:39] <OndraSter_> oh
[16:33:48] <OndraSter_> so which step do you want to see :)
[16:34:11] <Tom_itx> i don't like that TI level translator
[16:34:36] <RikusW> Tom_itx: you prefer the GTL ones instead ?
[16:34:58] <Tom_itx> i prefer $.65 to $2.80
[16:35:03] <OndraSter_> yeah :D
[16:35:16] <OndraSter_> do you have any?
[16:35:18] <OndraSter_> this cheap
[16:35:31] <Tom_itx> http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/NXP-Semiconductors/GTL2003PW118/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsty6Jaj0%252bBBr%252ba7pY41EA1KCFqgQLFfuE%3d
[16:35:42] <Tom_itx> i have a few
[16:35:45] <OndraSter_> sweet
[16:35:49] <OndraSter_> thanks
[16:35:58] <Tom_itx> they come in different widths
[16:36:02] <Tom_itx> from 2 bit on up
[16:36:17] <OndraSter_> hmm they are not available on farnell
[16:36:25] <OndraSter_> mouser = 50 bucks shipping to here
[16:36:27] <OndraSter_> or 60
[16:38:18] <Tom_itx> well they don't have the TI one either
[16:38:30] <OndraSter_> they have the TI ones on farnell
[16:38:44] <Tom_itx> not the farnell i just searched
[16:39:31] <OndraSter_> http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/txb0108pwr/ic-translator-8bit-bidirectional/dp/1494945RL
[16:39:42] <Tom_itx> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=SZEOCFGCQORXKCQLCIQZN4Q?N=0&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=TXB0108YZPR&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&suggestions=false&ref=globalsearch&_requestid=306629
[16:39:54] <OndraSter_> search just for 0108
[16:39:58] <OndraSter_> txb0108
[16:41:03] <Tom_itx> i'm glad i don't deal with them much
[16:41:13] <Tom_itx> they are too high and have little assortment
[16:41:24] <shorted_neuron> surely farnell has something
[16:41:34] <shorted_neuron> look for level shifting or voltage translation
[16:41:39] <Tom_itx> the NXP part is ALOT cheaper
[16:41:43] <Tom_itx> and works well
[16:41:44] <OndraSter_> yeah
[16:41:56] <OndraSter_> but the shipping from mouser is baaad, mmkay
[16:42:05] <OndraSter_> wondering why...
[16:42:11] <Tom_itx> looks like i got 50 or so on hand
[16:42:35] <OndraSter_> see, this xmega and such is one of my "projects that I think about, shove them into drawer and never pick up again"
[16:42:39] <OndraSter_> I have bazilion of these :D
[16:43:18] * Tom_itx looks over his shoulder
[16:43:26] * Tom_itx sees a mountain
[16:56:49] <ftc> when you are making a fairly sizeable project for an avr what is the best way to generate the makefiles, can you use automake or is there something better?
[17:58:33] <Jan-> hello AVR people
[18:00:40] <specing> hi!
[18:07:18] <AuroraX> where can i find the cheapest ATMEGA328-PU? No need for bootloader
[18:07:26] <Jan-> PU
[18:07:27] <Jan-> errrr
[18:07:33] * Jan- sniffs suspiciously
[18:07:33] <AuroraX> what?
[18:08:13] <AuroraX> is it evil?
[18:08:14] <AuroraX> :O
[18:10:43] <Casper> AuroraX: digikey?
[18:15:59] <specing> AuroraX: get a -AU :D
[18:19:07] <AuroraX> not breadboard compatible
[18:19:14] <AuroraX> unless cheaper lol
[18:19:33] <specing> cheaper.
[18:19:54] <specing> I bought one ATMEGA168 PU and one AU
[18:20:11] <specing> M168 is in my opinion the biggest bang for the buck
[18:20:21] <Jan-> that's the one I got :D
[18:21:11] <specing> :)
[18:21:20] <Jan-> actually mine might not have been PU
[18:21:23] <Jan-> but it's an ATMEGA168
[18:21:24] <specing> Im currentli lovin' the mega8
[18:21:29] <specing> y*
[18:21:30] <Jan-> (is that right, in uppercase)
[18:21:52] <specing> ATmega168 I think
[18:22:02] <Jan-> bleah
[18:26:25] <specing> Jan-: You started it!
[18:27:25] <Jan-> Guilty :/
[18:31:43] <AuroraX> what changes between ATMEGA168A-PU and ATMEGA168A-PU-ND and ATMEGA168A-20PU-ND ?
[18:32:05] <Tom_itx> 20Mhz
[18:32:16] <Jan-> very painful :/
[18:34:01] <Tom_itx> apparently nothing
[18:36:27] <AuroraX> Tom_itx: what?
[18:36:52] <AuroraX> is this good to go? http://search.digikey.com/pt/en/products/ATMEGA168A-PU/ATMEGA168A-PU-ND/2271215
[18:37:01] <AuroraX> can i mount this on an Arduino UNO?
[18:45:58] <Casper> check for the pin compatibility
[18:46:09] <Casper> and do not expect the code to work if it's not the exact same part
[18:48:41] <Tom_itx> if it's a 168 it should
[18:48:47] <Tom_itx> is the uno a 328?
[19:01:30] <AuroraX> how can i buy from digikey to portugal?
[19:03:46] <specing> LOL
[19:03:53] <specing> Isn't digikey US-based?
[19:04:08] <specing> You should be looking for something Europe-based
[19:05:01] <BusError> https://plus.google.com/u/0/111387094029238541867/posts/hs5RpsgR4BZ <- for your AVR projects ;-)
[19:05:06] <CMiYC> AuroraX: http://www.digikey.pt/
[19:06:16] <AuroraX> thanks
[19:09:18] <AuroraX> http://search.digikey.com/pt/en/products/ATMEGA168A-PU/ATMEGA168A-PU-ND/2271215
[19:09:23] <AuroraX> http://search.digikey.com/pt/en/products/ATMEGA168-20PU/ATMEGA168-20PU-ND/735446
[19:09:27] <AuroraX> http://search.digikey.com/pt/en/products/ATMEGA168PV-10PU/ATMEGA168PV-10PU-ND/1914554
[19:09:30] <AuroraX> i cant understand
[19:09:35] <AuroraX> what changes between these
[19:09:42] <AuroraX> they dont have the same price
[19:09:48] <AuroraX> omg i feel blind
[19:09:49] <AuroraX> :/
[19:10:13] <AuroraX> cant figure it out by the descriptions
[19:10:39] <Tom_itx> the 10PU is 10Mhz
[19:10:47] <Tom_itx> all you gotta do is read
[19:11:00] <Tom_itx> x the last link off your list
[19:11:44] <Jan-> AuroraX: don't worry, I often feel that way
[19:11:47] * Jan- is a master of comedy
[19:12:05] <Tom_itx> the "A" is a newer rev over the plain 168
[19:12:20] <Jan-> what difference does it make
[19:12:43] <Tom_itx> i don't know what it designates but they are pin compatible and would likely interchange in most circumstances
[19:13:01] <AuroraX> hmmmm
[19:13:07] <AuroraX> there arent 16MHz
[19:13:11] <AuroraX> hmmm
[19:13:14] <Tom_itx> the "A" goes down to 1.8v
[19:13:18] <Tom_itx> once again it's all there
[19:13:30] <Tom_itx> the plain one goes down to 2.7v
[19:13:45] <Tom_itx> the frequency is less at those voltages as well
[19:13:59] <Tom_itx> get either one you want
[19:14:02] <AuroraX> can i use a crystal of 16MHz with those that have 20MHz?
[19:14:03] <Tom_itx> they are virtually the same
[19:14:08] <Tom_itx> yes
[19:14:17] <AuroraX> cool
[19:14:21] <AuroraX> 2€ one atmega168
[19:14:27] <AuroraX> cheapest i found so far
[19:14:27] <AuroraX> :D
[19:14:48] <Tom_itx> the A is a newer part as well
[19:16:18] <AuroraX> its crazy how ATMEGA168-20PU-ND and ATMEGA168A-PU-ND look the same but the datasheets are different
[19:16:37] <Tom_itx> not that much
[19:16:58] <AuroraX> the 20PU is in fact ATmega168/V
[19:17:02] <AuroraX> wtvr that means
[19:30:15] <AuroraX> so the "A" is the latest version?
[19:30:26] <AuroraX> curiously it is the cheapest one too
[20:08:00] <edboogie2011> hey guys my SPI library uses to shiftin MSBPRE - Most Significant Bit first ; data is valid before the clock , the chip I want to talk to says "The device is accessed via the SI pin, with data being
[20:08:00] <edboogie2011> clocked in on the rising edge of SCK" ... so is MSBPRE the correct setting to use
[20:09:38] <edboogie2011> I don't get what data is valid before the clock means..
[20:16:50] <Kevin`> edboogie2011: the data should be set before the rising clock edge. on the falling clock edge would be a common place, but it's just important to meet the timing requirements
[20:19:53] <rue_mohr> means the transition of the data has to be done before the clock is changed
[20:19:56] <rue_mohr> to me
[20:20:49] <learningc> Tom_itx: I got a quotation for pcb today, $625 :S
[20:21:01] <Casper> o.O
[20:21:10] <AuroraX> OH GOD
[20:21:10] <Casper> is that alot or little?
[20:21:14] <AuroraX> OH... GOD....
[20:21:22] <AuroraX> digikey is f*kin expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[20:21:24] <learningc> I think it's a lot
[20:21:32] <Casper> AuroraX: why expensive?
[20:21:36] <Casper> on what part?
[20:21:39] <learningc> canadian PCB fab is expensive!
[20:22:00] <AuroraX> ATmega168
[20:22:16] <AuroraX> it should be 2eur, but with ports and taxes comes to 20eur
[20:22:17] <Casper> can you find it cheaper anywhere else?
[20:22:20] <Tom_itx> learningc, how big is the board?
[20:22:27] <AuroraX> i dont want to live on this planet anymore
[20:22:32] <AuroraX> farnell dude
[20:22:39] <AuroraX> 5eur, pay no taxes there
[20:22:43] <learningc> Tom_itx: let me check
[20:22:44] <Casper> you're in europe... that's why...
[20:22:55] <Casper> if you were in america it would be the cheapest place...
[20:22:57] <AuroraX> but still, 5eur for a piece of plastic and silicon...
[20:23:15] <edboogie2011> i recommend gold phoenix. i think they upped their prices though
[20:23:42] <Tom_itx> edboogie2011, for small stuff, itead has them beat
[20:24:06] <edboogie2011> is like 120 part two layer board 3" by 5" qualify?
[20:24:12] <edboogie2011> itead?
[20:24:31] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure, they have a 10cm sq deal
[20:24:41] <Tom_itx> which probably is too small
[20:25:02] <Tom_itx> i just had a 5cm deal done and got 100 for 88 total
[20:25:28] <Tom_itx> GP wanted upwards of 130 for the same but fewer parts
[20:25:34] <Vectory_> 88 bucks sopunds quite alright
[20:25:38] <Tom_itx> on their 155sq in deal
[20:26:22] <edboogie2011> wait 5 square cm?
[20:26:30] <Tom_itx> yeah
[20:27:00] <learningc> Tom_itx: about 120 sq in
[20:27:15] <Vectory_> does that mean 5*5 cm or 5 cm² ?
[20:27:20] <edboogie2011> i remember paying like $4 to $5 a board for 100 cm^2
[20:27:41] <Tom_itx> last order with GP i got like 75 boards back
[20:27:47] <Tom_itx> for the 155 sq in deal
[20:27:53] <Vectory_> Tom_L: does 5sq cm mean 5*5 cm or 5 cm² ?
[20:27:54] <Tom_itx> and paid 2 surcharges
[20:28:01] <Tom_L> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=509
[20:28:05] <Vectory_> Tom_itx: ^
[20:28:40] <Vectory_> 5*5 would be ebtter :P
[20:28:59] <Tom_itx> there's the deal
[20:29:50] <learningc> Tom_itx: in eagle, the silkscreen should be reversed for bottom layer?
[20:30:10] <Tom_itx> if you enter it on the proper layer it will be
[20:31:56] <edboogie2011> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=510 .. will they accept 12 cm by 8 cm
[20:32:03] <edboogie2011> that is cheap though
[20:32:05] <Tom_itx> no
[20:32:15] <Tom_itx> that's the catch
[20:32:21] <Tom_itx> it has to be within those dimensions
[20:34:20] <Tom_L> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=175
[20:34:30] <Tom_itx> there's the small quantity 10cm deal
[20:36:26] <Vectory_> my variable names are too long, destroys the tidy row look of my .asm );
[20:37:05] <Vectory_> ztied to limit myself to 8 letters but thats too few
[20:37:12] <Vectory_> to express anything
[20:38:11] <Vectory_> how about a twitter for oldschool coders allowing 8 letter messages ;) i reckon they were quite proficient ^^
[20:42:11] <learningc> Tom_itx: so if I look from the top layer, the silkscreen text on the bottom layer will look mirrored?
[20:43:24] <Tom_itx> learningc, the text will appear backwards as you look 'through' the board from the top
[20:44:09] <learningc> something like "cgninrael" ?
[20:44:20] <Tom_itx> yeah
[20:44:26] <learningc> ok thanks
[20:45:01] <Tom_itx> same as if you were to put text in the bottom copper layer
[20:45:10] <learningc> Tom_itx: when you send your board and ask them to panelize, will they cut the pieces for you?
[20:45:23] <Tom_itx> depends
[20:45:51] <Tom_itx> they may leave them vscored
[20:46:29] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/boards1.JPG
[20:46:36] <learningc> is there a cost for them to cut or vscore the boards?
[20:46:44] <Tom_itx> not usually
[20:46:54] <Tom_itx> they may get you for an odd shape
[20:48:29] <learningc> Tom_itx: those 2 panels on your pic, you put them all together or the board house did it?
[20:48:40] <Tom_itx> that's how they arrived
[20:48:49] <Tom_itx> i sent them one gerber set
[20:48:56] <Tom_itx> they panelized and vscored them
[20:49:30] <learningc> ah I see
[20:49:59] <Tom_itx> the ones i got back from itead were all cut and stacked
[20:50:10] <learningc> so do you have to order a definite number of units or you can order any random number?
[20:50:40] <Tom_itx> the pics were from GP which was their 155 sq in deal. so whatever they could fit in that space they sent
[20:51:26] <learningc> how much did you pay for that 155 sq in deal?
[20:52:11] <Tom_L> http://www.goldphoenixpcb.com/singlepage.php?tg=specialprice
[20:52:47] <learningc> Tom_itx = Tom_L ?
[20:53:26] <Tom_itx> $150
[20:53:34] <Tom_itx> yep
[20:53:54] <Tom_itx> so in the end it was cheaper for me to use itead for those
[20:54:50] <Tom_itx> they shipped ~80 for the $150 and on this next order i got 100 for $88
[20:55:03] <Tom_itx> you do the math :)
[20:56:35] <learningc> 80 what? boards?
[20:57:20] <Tom_itx> yeah
[20:57:49] <learningc> did you put anything extra? because 155in sq is $110 on their website
[20:58:11] <Tom_itx> if you read their restrictions on shape you will see mine exceeded 6 points
[20:58:22] <Tom_itx> and i wanted silk on both sides
[20:58:31] <Tom_itx> so those were 2 extra charges from GP
[20:58:45] <Tom_itx> the blue would be another charge
[20:59:49] <learningc> what do they mean by 6 routing points?
[21:00:03] <Tom_itx> every corner
[21:00:06] <Tom_itx> is a point
[21:00:41] <learningc> so A to B to C is 1 point, right?
[21:01:00] <Tom_itx> B is one point
[21:01:10] <Tom_itx> if it continues to D E F those would add in
[21:01:25] <learningc> what if I use curved traces?
[21:01:37] <Tom_itx> you'd just have to find out
[21:01:53] <learningc> there's no real points though
[21:02:13] <learningc> or perhaps they call it infinite points?
[21:02:35] <Tom_itx> click on their explanation of it
[21:02:57] <Tom_itx> under 'complex board shape'
[21:03:25] <Tom_itx> each radius is 3 points
[21:03:34] <Tom_itx> 8 for a circle
[21:03:47] <learningc> ah, I see
[21:05:32] <learningc> Tom_itx: in your blue panel, there are a lot of big holes, they took boards from that panel?
[21:06:55] <Tom_itx> that was the shape i requested
[21:07:28] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/USBTinyMkII_Box3.jpg
[21:08:36] <learningc> Tom_itx: ah.. and why did they took pieces out within the board intead of vscoring only?
[21:08:58] <Tom_itx> that's what the design called out
[21:11:18] <learningc> Tom_itx: is the vscored panel easy to break into separate units?
[21:11:27] <Tom_itx> yup
[21:11:41] <learningc> cool
[21:11:57] <learningc> how do they do that actually? using a router?
[21:12:06] <Tom_itx> if it's exposed, i hit the edge with a bit of sandpaper
[21:14:45] <learningc> Tom_itx: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/rs232_bot.jpg using toner transfer?
[21:15:02] <Tom_itx> yup
[21:15:20] <learningc> looks good
[21:16:27] <learningc> Tom_itx: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/Copper2.jpg where did you get your copper stock?
[21:16:58] <Tom_itx> snuck into a board house and stole it
[21:17:36] <Tom_itx> that was just part of the loose cutoff laying on the floor
[21:17:51] <Tom_itx> actually i bought out a board house here that closed
[21:20:40] <learningc> ah
[21:20:48] <learningc> that hell a lot of boards
[21:21:04] <learningc> lucky
[21:21:17] <learningc> you've got board for life
[21:22:26] <learningc> any way I can get a few from you for cheap?
[21:52:42] <inflex> you'll get "mates rates", which is double price ;)
[21:55:18] <Tom_itx> you know about 'mates rates'
[21:58:46] <learningc> lol
[21:59:06] <learningc> I need some cheap boards
[22:24:34] <learningc> Tom_itx: what about fellow rates?
[22:52:11] <rue_mohr> $65.00 per hour
[22:52:11] <rue_mohr> $75.00 per hour if you watch
[22:52:11] <rue_mohr> $85.00 per hour if you ask questions
[22:52:11] <rue_mohr> $100.00 per hour if you help
[22:52:11] <rue_mohr> $125.00 per hour if you say "it's an easy job"
[22:52:11] <rue_mohr> $135.00 per hour if you complain
[22:52:13] <rue_mohr> $150.00 per hour if you did the job, then called us to fix it
[22:53:28] <CMiYC> how much to say "I could do better"
[22:53:57] <CMiYC> (and how much extra if I do so while grabbing the wrong end of the soldering iron)
[22:53:57] <Kevin`> that one is free, as long as you go and do it
[22:54:38] <Kevin`> failing would obviously put you back in the highest price there
[22:55:40] <CMiYC> "i could do better" falls into the complaining category. but I think grabbing the hot end of the iron should be at least in the $300 to $400 range