#avr | Logs for 2012-02-12

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[01:01:03] <cyanide> men
[01:01:15] <cyanide> how many external interrupts does the atmega640 have?
[01:02:12] <cyanide> 8, just counted
[01:16:13] <theBear> hehe
[01:44:18] <brent^> hhhhhhola
[01:44:24] <brent^> any newbs here
[01:44:58] <brent^> aka arduino users'
[01:45:08] <specing> #arduino
[01:45:23] <brent^> i hate arduino
[01:45:25] <specing> This channel is hardcore
[01:45:30] <brent^> id never join that channel
[01:46:06] <brent^> ok now thats out the way
[01:46:19] <brent^> anyone know of a software uart bootloader
[01:46:35] <specing> no
[01:46:40] <brent^> damn
[01:46:48] <specing> Write it yourself
[01:46:50] <specing> :D
[01:47:04] <brent^> oh well SPI = just as easy might as well make a AVR programmer instead of a bootloader
[01:47:26] <specing> or google it, Im sure it is embedded somewhere in a megatonne of appnotes
[01:47:38] <brent^> nope
[02:42:53] <specing> Meh, the ADC can be a bitch sometimes
[02:44:42] <theBear> aye, she is a harsh mistress, yar
[02:44:51] <theBear> hmm, dunno where that came from
[02:49:44] <specing> Scotty?
[02:50:49] <specing> Hmm, sleep_mode() did it
[02:59:14] <specing> sweet :D
[02:59:30] <specing> now, averaging
[02:59:52] <specing> Im going to do some inline assembly for the added fun :D
[03:02:50] <theBear> like on skates ?
[03:03:10] <theBear> does sound better than regular assembly, cos of the roller skates factor
[03:04:41] <specing> :D
[03:06:02] <specing> Because using uint32_t for averaging += 150 bytes of program memory :/
[03:17:40] <specing> hmm, I was thinking about using the lower 16 registers for data storage
[03:18:15] <specing> Is there a way to put a struct of ~8 bytes into the register file?
[03:18:46] <specing> That would get rid of the std/lds hogs :/
[03:20:28] <specing> hmm or not, I see gcc uses some lowregs
[03:37:03] <CapnKernel> specing: I think you can tell gcc that a particular variable is mapped to a particular location.
[03:37:24] <CapnKernel> You can do it using linker maps, but I think this won't optimise well because it's done at link time.
[03:44:52] <CapnKernel> specing: You might find this interesting: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/682697/fixed-address-variable-in-c
[03:53:23] <specing> Hmm
[03:53:40] <specing> I thing gcc is confuzzled by my inline assembly
[03:57:48] <specing> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/PHDjmewzPKKpoSMCCw8P/
[03:58:15] <specing> What in the name of .* is it doing there?
[04:06:17] <ferdna> what is the name of that smart guy who is in a wheelchair?
[04:06:36] <ferdna> and talks like a robot
[04:07:09] <ferdna> got it
[04:07:09] <ferdna> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
[04:14:11] <specing> ferdna: lol
[04:17:34] <OndraSter> eh
[04:18:19] <ferdna> specing, whats so funny?
[05:18:32] <norbi> hello
[05:18:46] <norbi> guys, any experiences with usb PnP?
[05:20:02] <CapnKernel> What do you mean by usb pnp
[05:21:13] <norbi> i mean when you plug in your usb device into a pc, and the operating system autoatically install the plug and play universal driver
[05:22:13] <CapnKernel> The USB device tells the PC certain information
[05:22:30] <CapnKernel> In particular, the vendor and product id, and a general device class.
[05:22:52] <CapnKernel> If the device class is "HID" (Human Interface Device), then there can be a lot more information about what the device does.
[05:23:05] <CapnKernel> The operating system then can try to match that device against the drivers it has.
[05:25:08] <norbi> CapnKernel: yea but im mainly interested about how that comunication is going on. the data exchange, i know how usb works.
[05:25:21] <norbi> hmm
[05:25:29] <norbi> im not expressed myself correctly
[05:25:37] <CapnKernel> No you're not
[05:25:48] <CapnKernel> It's quite unclear to me what you're really after.
[05:26:16] <norbi> first, than you for describing the protoco; 2nd i known how the usb comunication works, but exactly how is that protocol implemented is what im interested in
[05:26:39] <norbi> *thank you for describing the protocol
[05:27:01] <CapnKernel> Norbi: Have you ever used Linux?
[05:27:10] <norbi> yes, i did and do
[05:27:32] <CapnKernel> Wireshark under Linux can capture the USB traffic, which is really great for learning how things work.
[05:27:49] <CapnKernel> It's also useful to have a look at the USB spec.
[05:27:53] <norbi> im using wireshark for CISCO
[05:28:14] <norbi> so probably i can use wireshark for that, thats a good idea
[05:29:18] <norbi> yea but there is no OS specific PnP hardware protocol description? at physical layer?
[05:30:08] <CapnKernel> Dude, USB is not OS specific
[05:33:49] <norbi> USB is not, but changing specific inforations in an unique way it is?
[05:34:20] <CapnKernel> Huh?
[05:34:23] <CapnKernel> I have no idea what you mean.
[05:34:40] <CapnKernel> Really, what does "changing specific inforations in an unique way " mean?
[05:35:13] <CapnKernel> USB devices don't care or know what OS is running on the PC. They just provide the information they were programmed with.
[05:35:30] <CapnKernel> The information describes what the device does
[05:35:40] <CapnKernel> Search google for usb descriptor
[05:38:31] <norbi> ok, thank you!
[05:38:41] <norbi> thank you very much!
[05:39:42] <CapnKernel> norbi: Go study this, it is very good: http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.shtml
[05:41:50] <norbi> thanks, your usb driver is unique, or it is a framework/
[05:41:51] <norbi> ?
[05:42:08] <norbi> are you writing usb from scratch?
[05:43:33] <CapnKernel> You asking me?
[05:43:40] <norbi> yes
[05:43:54] <CapnKernel> That website is not mine, if that's what you mean.;
[05:44:03] <CapnKernel> And the rest of what I've told you, you could learn with Google in 5 minutes.
[05:44:47] <norbi> CapnKernel: no, i meant that when you are implementing usb, then you are doing it from scratch, or using some framework for this robust protocol?
[05:44:55] <CapnKernel> I have never done it
[05:44:59] <norbi> ah
[05:45:04] <CapnKernel> What processor are you considering?
[05:45:25] <norbi> you mean what mcu?
[05:47:17] <CapnKernel> Yes
[05:48:05] <CapnKernel> (I made this: https://sites.google.com/a/afork.com/usbdoodad/ )
[05:48:24] <CapnKernel> So, I lied :-)
[05:48:28] <norbi> i want to buy this
[05:48:30] <norbi> AT90USB647/1287
[05:49:14] <CapnKernel> Good
[05:49:31] <CapnKernel> The reason I asked, is because some Atmel chips do USB in hardware, and some do no.
[05:49:33] <CapnKernel> not
[05:50:38] <norbi> yes, i think nobody does usb in software anymore
[05:50:48] <norbi> and its hard
[05:51:42] <CapnKernel> If the MCU does USB in hardware (like that one), then I'd suggest that you use LUFA:
[05:52:09] <CapnKernel> If the chip does not support USB in hardware, you can still do it in software. You can use something called V-USB. That's what I've used, and it works well.
[05:52:44] <OndraSter> I was smart enough to get atmega128a and ft232 :o)
[05:52:46] <CapnKernel> You can find LUFA here: http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php
[05:52:59] <CapnKernel> OndraSter: Hi there!
[05:53:05] <OndraSter> ey CapnKernel
[05:53:44] <norbi> ft232
[05:53:45] <norbi> ?
[05:53:58] <OndraSter> USB UART
[05:55:49] <OndraSter> huh, at90usb64 costs more than xmega64 which has USB
[05:56:06] <OndraSter> but damnit, we want xmega256a1u!
[05:56:08] <OndraSter> which doesn't exist
[05:57:01] <CapnKernel> norbi: Do you know how to use Google search?
[05:57:42] <CapnKernel> Because a lot of your questions (for example, asking what ft232 is) could be answered with a simple Google query
[06:00:11] <norbi> yes i do know:P i have my own api comunicating with it, but i like to socialize and talk with ppl, talking just with google makes me feel freaky
[06:01:10] <CapnKernel> Talking here is good. Welcome
[06:01:17] <CapnKernel> Tell us more about your project.
[06:03:44] <norbi> im at college, and i try to learn as more as i can about electronics, ive started with atmegas in highschool, and still it is my favorite
[06:04:37] <norbi> im really low in analog electronics, i have some good concepts about digital electronics, but still not very good in it neither
[06:05:26] <CapnKernel> Sounds good.
[06:05:27] <norbi> i have at home some good modules for dev boards, lcd's etc, pic32 devboards and atmega devboards + 2 fpga devboards
[06:06:28] <norbi> but in fpga im the biggest noob in the world, pic is not enogh userfriendly for me like avr
[06:07:06] <norbi> now im trying to make something engineered not from tutorials and not like a real newbie
[06:07:08] <OndraSter> amee2k, do you remember how I was, about 3 weeks ago, looking for the NRF24L01 in my room?
[06:07:09] <OndraSter> well
[06:07:12] <OndraSter> I still haven't found them lol
[06:07:22] <norbi> want to take everything step by step
[06:07:38] <OndraSter> I found many, many, many other stuff, as old DAC from 80s, bunch of EPROMs...
[06:08:08] <norbi> i have my own library for usart, interrupts and some others
[06:08:27] <amee2k> OndraSter: 0.0
[06:08:34] <OndraSter> SMALL boards
[06:08:35] <amee2k> wanna trade rooms for a week?
[06:08:37] <OndraSter> :D
[06:08:40] <norbi> now after im having a small device that does not much, i want to connect it to pc via usb
[06:08:50] <norbi> and want it to be plug and play
[06:09:10] <norbi> and drive some leds from a pc software via the usb
[06:10:18] <norbi> i played before with usb when i've done a wheather satelite imagery, that takes images from satellites and puts it online
[06:11:06] <CapnKernel> Er, that's what my project does: https://sites.google.com/a/afork.com/usbdoodad/
[06:11:10] <norbi> the coordonates of the satelites was saved to a usb storage device, and the antenna was moving after those coordonates
[06:13:41] <norbi> CapnKernel: that board is for educational purpose or for usb module that can be expansed?
[06:14:25] <CapnKernel> It's meant as a surface mount soldering exercise, but you also get a useful board at the end, that can be used to interface to the real world.
[06:29:46] <OndraSter> hello Dean
[06:31:21] <abcminiuser> Heyo
[06:37:32] <inflex> lo folks
[06:59:20] <pc_magas> Hello
[06:59:23] <OndraSter> elo
[07:03:36] <OndraSter> amee2k, I FOUND IT!!!!
[07:09:41] <Bushman> ave
[07:09:49] <OndraSter> ey Bushman
[07:10:08] <OndraSter> hmm why those cheap chinese humidity & temperature meters cost less than humidity sensor itself? :(
[07:14:40] <amee2k> \o/
[07:15:06] <amee2k> OndraSter: so you buy the humidity+temperature ones and throw the temp sensor away
[07:15:16] <OndraSter> they will be most likely on chip
[07:15:20] <OndraSter> I found DHT11
[07:15:24] <OndraSter> for $2.5 or so
[07:15:32] <pc_magas> Or make a portable meteorologic station
[07:15:33] <pc_magas> ;)
[07:15:42] <OndraSter> pc_magas, that's my purpose
[07:15:52] <OndraSter> meteorologic station that sends the data wirelessly to the master
[07:16:28] <pc_magas> So use temp + humidity sensors ande stream it through the internet ;)
[07:16:33] <OndraSter> yeah
[07:16:44] <OndraSter> I want(ed) to use DS18B20
[07:16:48] <impulze> heh i have a sht15 and bmp085
[07:21:59] <dekroning> hello all
[07:22:15] <OndraSter> ello
[07:22:49] <CapnKernel> hi
[07:22:54] <CapnKernel> 你好
[07:22:57] <OndraSter> impulze, what is your project? :)
[07:23:18] <impulze> just something for university
[07:23:26] <impulze> reading weather stuff and distribute it via dds
[07:24:39] <OndraSter> my plan goes something like...
[07:24:44] <OndraSter> attiny13a as main MCU
[07:24:59] <OndraSter> requests data from all sensors (pressure? looks cool, temperature and humidity)
[07:25:03] <OndraSter> captures them
[07:25:12] <OndraSter> and sends them over NRF24L01+ to main
[07:25:14] <OndraSter> unit
[07:25:21] <OndraSter> these attiny ones will be powered by batteries
[07:25:28] <OndraSter> hidden somehwere around house, outside, ..
[07:25:47] <OndraSter> the main unit will put them on the internet, regulate heater, ...
[07:29:07] <OndraSter> so... that's my plan
[07:29:19] <OndraSter> I can hopefuly fit all required signals onto tiny13
[07:29:20] <OndraSter> a
[07:29:26] <OndraSter> without getting rid of RESET pin
[07:29:56] <CapnKernel> OndraSter: you going to upload to pachube.com?
[07:29:57] <OndraSter> there is 5 GPIOs + RESET/GPIO
[07:30:22] <OndraSter> CapnKernel, haven't heard of that website :o)
[07:30:26] <OndraSter> but I could connect it there
[07:30:42] <CapnKernel> It's a website which acts as storage for time data, such as environmental measurements
[07:31:01] <CapnKernel> For example, when we were brewing beer in our lab, we logged the temperatures to pachube.com
[07:31:07] <CapnKernel> Then we could check the temperatures from home
[07:31:13] <CapnKernel> And if there was a fault, go fix it.
[07:31:19] <CapnKernel> Saved our butts several times
[07:31:29] <CapnKernel> (Really annoying when the hose comes off the water cooling...)
[07:49:43] <impulze> what can you do with those pressure and humidity values inside your home?
[07:50:08] <impulze> i can see some value in temperature values so you can adjust it as needed
[07:50:16] <impulze> but what's the purpose of humidity/pressure?
[07:51:04] <OndraSter> well one inside
[07:51:07] <OndraSter> and one or more outside
[07:51:13] <OndraSter> inside to measure if the heater should start or not
[07:51:20] <OndraSter> and humidity/pressure..
[07:51:25] <OndraSter> just because I wouldn't be doing 2 diff boards
[07:51:28] <OndraSter> I could just not populate it..
[07:53:53] <impulze> ah
[10:23:51] <specing> No eori instruction :[
[10:24:15] <OndraSter> what should eori do?
[10:24:21] <OndraSter> extended OR Immediate?
[10:24:33] <specing> exclusive or register with immediate
[10:24:44] <OndraSter> oh
[10:24:49] <OndraSter> xori I'd expect
[10:25:45] <specing> there is no such instruction
[10:26:41] <OndraSter> hmm
[10:26:47] <OndraSter> LDI, EOR (XOR?)...
[10:28:19] <specing> indeed
[10:35:29] <Tom_itx> g'day to all
[10:37:44] <OndraSter> gday Tom
[10:39:00] <Tom_itx> they name the xor instruction something silly iirc
[10:39:10] <Tom_itx> eor i think
[10:39:40] <specing> Now I have the whole ISR in 116 instructions
[10:39:43] <Tom_itx> makes me think of a cartoon char in poo bear
[10:39:49] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: I couldn't help notice that you're, like, talking Australian :-)
[10:40:05] <Tom_itx> only way i can get their attention
[10:40:09] <CapnKernel> LOL
[10:40:18] <Tom_itx> all they understand i think
[10:40:21] <Tom_itx> :)
[10:41:07] <Tom_itx> not sure if dean is Au or No now
[10:41:18] <Tom_itx> and i think you're part chinese now too
[10:41:39] <specing> NO
[10:41:56] <specing> Oh look, he is here
[10:42:16] <Tom_itx> i know he's there, just wonder if he forgot his roots yet
[10:46:20] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser what's up?
[10:47:12] <Tom_itx> i wonder which of the new usb enabled xmegas has more bang for the buck for hobby use
[10:49:55] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, eating dinner
[10:49:58] <abcminiuser> What did I miss?
[10:50:13] <Tom_itx> me?
[10:50:22] <Tom_itx> nothing i just woke up
[10:50:31] <Tom_itx> slept late today for some reason
[10:51:14] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, is lufa ported to those new usb xmegas yet?
[10:51:29] <abcminiuser> 90% done
[10:51:34] <abcminiuser> Got a new demos working
[10:51:45] <Tom_itx> what board are you using to test on?
[10:51:53] <abcminiuser> I know what the issue is now, problem is it's a bitch to fix so I'm waiting until I feel like doing all of it at once
[10:51:58] <Tom_itx> what's their 'xplaind' board for it?
[10:52:09] <abcminiuser> XMEGA-B1 Xplained, XMEGA-A3BU Xplained
[10:52:15] <specing> Lmao
[10:52:19] <Tom_itx> which is the better of the two
[10:52:20] <Tom_itx> ?
[10:52:24] <abcminiuser> Latter
[10:52:42] <Tom_itx> it has the rtc or do both ?
[10:53:15] <specing> If sleep_mode is a macro for sleep_enable(); sleep_cpu(); sleep_disable(), how come that using sleep_enable() followed by sleep_cpu() uses more program space?!
[10:54:20] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, just the A3B IIRC
[10:54:35] <abcminiuser> Also has more flash, and a decent screen
[10:54:50] <Tom_itx> i wonder if it would be suitable for a reprap controller
[10:56:50] <abcminiuser> Could be
[10:57:12] <Tom_itx> plenty of io and pwm
[10:57:28] <Tom_itx> both adc and dac too right?
[10:57:41] <Tom_itx> i assume they got the adc fixed
[10:58:24] <Tom_itx> i may have to start a board for one and see where it goes
[10:58:32] <abcminiuser> The XMEGAs with USB have working ADC
[10:59:02] <Tom_itx> you should add a Gcode app to your examples :)
[10:59:20] <specing> I don't quite get it
[10:59:46] <specing> Adding sleep_cpu adds 6 bytes to the program while it is defined to asm("sleep" :::):
[11:00:25] <Tom_itx> what's the output look like?
[11:01:56] <specing> just sleep
[11:03:25] <specing> And diffing both .s files is rather useless since each output differs significantly
[11:04:38] <specing> *!@#$%* weird
[11:06:20] <specing> adding MCUCR |= (1 << SE) before the sleep instruction reduced the memory by 8 bytes
[11:06:27] <specing> wtf?!
[11:06:38] <Tom_itx> heh
[11:07:39] <specing> if I put sei() in between it adds another 14 bytes
[11:08:02] <Tom_itx> that probably adds stack instructions
[11:09:30] <specing> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/FMZm8JcjhIQNBX8ASqJU/
[11:10:26] <specing> there the first instruction belongs to sei() and the last 4 belong to sleep_*
[11:11:01] <specing> I have no clue what the middle ones do, the program still runs ok
[11:11:52] <Tom_itx> some registers are out of range for some instructions aren't they?
[11:12:48] <specing> Doesent look so
[11:14:12] <Tom_itx> i don't do asm that much
[11:15:28] <specing> Me neither, but today I went crazy
[11:16:00] <Tom_itx> i just read enough to do what i need and try to execute it
[11:16:13] <Tom_itx> mostly just to learn a bit of avr asm
[11:16:46] <specing> I wrote two pages of ASM today
[11:17:06] <specing> Its not related to this sleep mess
[11:17:15] <Casper> just 2 pages?
[11:17:25] <specing> Casper: just two (adc ISR)
[11:17:42] <Casper> so you did what? set a single bit in a register? :D
[11:17:48] * Casper hides behind a tree
[11:18:32] <specing> multichannel sampling and 256-sample averaging
[11:19:09] * Tom_itx cuts the tree down and smacks Casper
[11:19:27] <specing> ;)
[11:19:28] * Casper swaps place with specing when he see the tree fall
[11:19:58] * Tom_itx visualizes a roadrunner cartoon moment
[11:25:51] <learningc> anyone has done bga soldering here?
[11:26:13] <OndraSter> only desoldering
[11:26:20] <amee2k> successfully?
[11:26:34] <OndraSter> amee2k, yes... it fit on my keychain! :D
[11:26:43] <CapnKernel> Nice
[11:26:50] <amee2k> no, i mean (non-de) soldering
[11:26:54] <learningc> OndraSter: what for on your keychain?
[11:26:57] <OndraSter> :P
[11:27:03] <OndraSter> learningc, it was some GPU I think
[11:27:04] <OndraSter> or chipset?
[11:27:11] <OndraSter> I have plenty of stuff on my keychain
[11:27:22] <OndraSter> I have there some 16MB SDRAM chip from laptop
[11:27:47] <learningc> would you guys know how I should proceed with bga packages? any tips?
[11:28:48] <CapnKernel> youtube
[11:29:47] <Tom_itx> learningc i've never done it but hot air soldering would probably be the way to go
[11:30:00] <OndraSter> the easiest way how to do BGAs is with something like this
[11:30:01] <OndraSter> http://www.hotair.pl/pl/sklep/details/809/16/jovy-systems/stacja-lutownicza-jovy-re-8500-ze-stolikiem-x-y-table.html
[11:30:05] <Tom_itx> the problem is in checking the inner solder joints
[11:30:06] <OndraSter> except the price
[11:30:10] <OndraSter> like $3k+ :D
[11:30:31] <CapnKernel> Toaster oven so the whole board is nice and warm.
[11:30:47] <Tom_itx> alignment would be key
[11:31:05] <learningc> what about the routing?
[11:31:14] <Tom_itx> min 4 layer or more
[11:31:16] <OndraSter> pitch size?
[11:31:23] <Tom_itx> likely more
[11:31:26] <learningc> should the vias be right under the solder balls?
[11:31:33] <OndraSter> right next to them
[11:31:38] <OndraSter> can't be right under the balls
[11:31:51] <OndraSter> you will be doing really small vias
[11:31:53] <OndraSter> REALLY small vias
[11:32:02] <learningc> could not the pad be the via also?
[11:32:03] <Tom_itx> the board cost will be higher too
[11:32:09] <OndraSter> yeah
[11:32:24] <CapnKernel> Alignment is not as critical as you think, as the surface tension from all the balls will pull the chip into perfect alignment
[11:32:29] <CapnKernel> Either that or one-off :-)
[11:32:45] <OndraSter> 2 "levels" of pads on BGA is the max I'd do on some cheap services like iteadstudio
[11:32:49] <OndraSter> you can route those out easily
[11:32:53] <OndraSter> on single side
[11:33:33] <CapnKernel> edboogie2011: Hi there
[11:33:34] <OndraSter> abcminiuser, eya, are we gonna have TPI on Dragon someday? =)
[11:33:38] <learningc> with 0.4mm pitch would the vias beside the copper pads be possible?
[11:33:51] <edboogie2011> oh hey CapnKernel
[11:39:06] <edboogie2011> hey guys. whats the easiest way to read a 2K eeprom that has a MAC address, I need to extract the MAC addresses off these 25AA02E48-I/SN
[11:39:18] <edboogie2011> I basicly only have my PC to do it
[11:40:07] <CapnKernel> edboogie2011 and I are talking in PM about the chip order he did through me last year
[11:40:13] <CapnKernel> 110 NXP ARM processors
[11:40:33] <OndraSter> 110 as number of pieces or model?
[11:40:37] <edboogie2011> yeah they were great
[11:40:43] <edboogie2011> 110 pieces
[11:40:45] <OndraSter> wow
[11:40:54] <Kevin`> edboogie2011: it's too bad it's not an i2c eeprom, there are several i2c interfaces on a pc. anyway, parallel port would work, like it does for everything, or something like a bus pirate
[11:40:55] <OndraSter> I was looking at some ARMs
[11:41:01] <OndraSter> are they at least universal for JTAG?
[11:42:21] <CapnKernel> edboogie: If it was an I2C eeprom, there's a trick where you can use the DDC channel on a VGA connector.
[11:42:36] <edboogie2011> yeah sadly its SPI
[11:43:05] <CapnKernel> I think what you need is a thingy called a "bus pirate"
[11:43:22] <Tom_itx> edboogie2011, would something like this work: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/mtkflash/flash_howto_index.php
[11:43:26] <Tom_itx> no idea
[11:43:28] <CapnKernel> It eats this kind of problem for breakfanst
[11:43:43] <specing> CapnKernel: How come you live in China?
[11:43:55] <CapnKernel> http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/bus-pirate-v3-assembled-p-609.html?cPath=61_68
[11:44:11] <CapnKernel> The city I live in has the world's largest electronics market
[11:44:17] <edboogie2011> well wait.. i have an arduino in my closet
[11:44:26] <CapnKernel> You're set then
[11:44:27] <edboogie2011> could i make that thing read SPI
[11:44:29] <CapnKernel> YES
[11:44:36] <edboogie2011> sweet
[11:44:51] <specing> CapnKernel: I'm jealous
[11:45:17] <edboogie2011> kk gonna go #arduino.. yeah CapnKernel is honorable in his chip trading
[11:45:21] <CapnKernel> http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/SPIEEPROM
[11:45:25] <edboogie2011> at least to me
[11:45:43] <Tom_itx> glad it worked out
[11:45:48] <CapnKernel> edboogie2011: http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/SPIEEPROM
[11:46:01] <edboogie2011> thanks CapnKernel.. I see that
[11:46:26] <CapnKernel> I think with that, you're going to be home in time for cornflakes.
[11:46:52] <edboogie2011> getting 60 different parts from 6 sources was a nightmare, took about 1 week of pure hunting
[11:47:10] <Tom_itx> that's usually the case building a BOM
[11:47:12] <edboogie2011> but the costliest parts I asked for from CapnKernel
[11:47:20] <edboogie2011> and he pulled
[11:48:34] <CapnKernel> edboogie2011: Dude, the whole point of what I want to do is save people 1 week of pure hunting! LOL LOL LOL
[11:48:52] * CapnKernel is having a good old laugh
[11:50:35] <CapnKernel> specing: I'm starting a component supply business for hobbyists, so moving here was a natural thing to do
[11:50:38] <CapnKernel> I miss my family though
[11:51:16] <OndraSter> twitter: http://clip2net.com/s/1AnRk
[11:51:17] <OndraSter> omg
[11:51:36] <edboogie2011> if you could kill the one week procurement pain, you could make money
[11:51:52] <CapnKernel> I'm not really interested in money
[11:52:10] <CapnKernel> But I know how to kill the procurement pain
[11:52:18] <CapnKernel> And that's my goal
[11:53:10] <Roamin> so you moved away from your family to help others get parts faster, and not make money?
[11:53:19] <CapnKernel> I wasted far too many hours of my life hunting down components, until one day I woke up and realised that others were probably in the same situation, and that with my ability to speak Chinese, I could actually do something about it.
[11:53:53] <Tom_itx> and he digs the chinese market chicks
[11:54:05] <CapnKernel> Roamin: I need to look after my family of course, but it's not money that gives me a buzz
[11:54:11] <OndraSter> azns ftw
[11:54:25] <Roamin> He's like a god sent electronics preacher :)
[11:54:25] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: <blush> You weren't supposed to say :-)
[11:54:36] <CapnKernel> I get a kick when I see people build things.
[11:54:45] <Tom_itx> yup
[11:54:58] <Roamin> Go spread the parts!
[11:55:03] <Tom_itx> same thing that motivated me to do my programmers. if i figured my labor i would be losing money
[11:55:12] <CapnKernel> That's right
[11:55:23] <Tom_itx> nobody things of that though
[11:55:28] <Tom_itx> thinks*
[11:55:42] <CapnKernel> Yet you can send off a batch of programmers (I have mine right here) and feel good about the thought that people are going to have a lot of fun with them.
[11:57:22] <OndraSter> edboogie2011, how do you programm those NXP? Do you have some JTAG for them?
[11:57:33] <OndraSter> I'd like to jump on ARM ship, but I bought AVR Dragon
[11:57:35] <OndraSter> and I am cheap student :D
[11:59:59] <CapnKernel> I live on about $2 a day
[12:00:01] <CapnKernel> not by choice
[12:00:12] <CapnKernel> my family's had no income for six months
[12:00:24] <edboogie2011> OndraSter: I use cortex ARM m3 by NXP, I use JTAG for development
[12:00:27] <edboogie2011> flash like that
[12:00:32] <OndraSter> yeah, what JTAG box?
[12:00:35] <Steffanx> $2 is a lot in china?
[12:00:45] <edboogie2011> then since yesterday I learned ISP serial programing for production
[12:00:57] <ureif> $2 is very little even in China.
[12:01:02] <edboogie2011> there is a really cheap KEIL knockofff from china
[12:01:05] <edboogie2011> google mbest
[12:01:11] <edboogie2011> LPC1700
[12:01:13] <edboogie2011> i think
[12:01:17] <OndraSter> thanks
[12:01:24] <edboogie2011> it is exactly the same as KEIL MCB1768
[12:01:50] <edboogie2011> and the JTAG cable with the embest model is compatible with KEIL toolchain
[12:02:51] <edboogie2011> OndraSter: 25AA02E48-I/SN
[12:02:58] <OndraSter> thanks
[12:03:03] <edboogie2011> sorry
[12:03:10] <edboogie2011> ignore that part number\
[12:03:11] <OndraSter> that's microchip
[12:03:20] <edboogie2011> embest LPC1768
[12:03:21] <OndraSter> oh
[12:03:24] <edboogie2011> that is the board
[12:03:28] <OndraSter> oh ok thanks
[12:03:34] <edboogie2011> that is identical to the expensive KEIL MCB1700
[12:03:34] <Steffanx> And the KEIL toolchain is free ofcourse :P
[12:03:39] <edboogie2011> no
[12:03:40] <edboogie2011> lol
[12:03:45] <edboogie2011> KEIL toolchain is not free
[12:03:46] <OndraSter> keil toolchain has "demo"
[12:03:49] <edboogie2011> but more reasonal
[12:03:50] <Steffanx> It is, with some limitations
[12:03:50] <OndraSter> limited to few k of lines
[12:03:56] <edboogie2011> reasonabal
[12:05:59] <edboogie2011> OndraSter: when you buy that board with JTAG cable from embest, it might cost$200 or whatever.. just email them to get the latest drivers for JTAG, and maybe a unlock code for it, and it will program and debug in keil Uvision
[12:06:10] <OndraSter> hmm
[12:06:16] <OndraSter> thanks :)
[12:06:20] <OndraSter> will look onto it someday
[12:06:31] <OndraSter> now I have AVR
[12:06:36] <OndraSter> I wish xmegas had more reasonable price :(
[12:06:40] <edboogie2011> i love keil uvision and RL_ARM real time OS
[12:06:59] <Steffanx> I don't like that uvision editor :P
[12:07:03] <edboogie2011> I switched to real time OS ARMs, and never went back
[12:07:42] <edboogie2011> Steffanx: I guess i got too used to the awesome examples it came with and the support from NXP
[12:08:10] <edboogie2011> and the operating system.. it is far from perfect. they don'tt even give you the code to the OS
[12:08:16] <edboogie2011> but whatever i got my app done
[12:08:30] <Steffanx> And it's windows only ofcourse
[12:08:39] <edboogie2011> lol. such is life
[12:10:18] <learningc> Tom_itx: you have a commercial website?
[12:11:06] <Steffanx> Tom_itx has website :P
[12:12:29] <skorket> n
[12:12:45] <Steffanx> m
[12:12:49] <skorket> sorry
[12:13:10] <Steffanx> No need to be sorry ..
[12:14:06] <CapnKernel> Tom has a very nice website, and you can even practise your typing as you type in the address...
[12:14:17] <CapnKernel> But the content is great
[12:14:44] <Steffanx> You have the URL in your memory CapnKernel ?
[12:15:17] <CapnKernel> Actually no I don't need to, as fortunately Firefox is good at remembering that sort of stuff. Otherwise I'd need to bring along a cut lunch
[12:16:01] <Steffanx> :)
[12:16:14] <Steffanx> It's actually quite easy
[12:16:49] <CapnKernel> I admit, it's not very nice of me to poke fun of Tom's nice website, considering all the work he's put into it. Sorry Tom.
[12:18:54] <learningc> are avrs 5V or 3.3V?
[12:19:12] <Steffanx> 5V or 3.3V or bouth
[12:19:14] <Steffanx> -u
[12:19:30] <Kevin`> learningc: some do the full range 1.6-5v, some only go up to 5v. most 5v will also run on 3.3v. check the datasheet.
[12:19:50] <Kevin`> *some only go up to 3.3v
[12:20:13] <learningc> Kevin`: what about the powerful avrs? like those running at >100mips
[12:20:16] <amee2k> i want an industrial keyboard ffs
[12:20:26] <amee2k> something that i can stick in the dish washer once a month >_<
[12:20:27] <Kevin`> learningc: generally those are lower voltage
[12:20:39] <Steffanx> Don't eat near your keyboard amee2k ..
[12:20:48] <learningc> ffs?
[12:20:55] <amee2k> "for fuck's sake"
[12:20:59] <Tom_itx> learningc, i sell programmers. not a commercial site per se
[12:21:16] <CapnKernel> Get an IBM Model M off eBay. You can hose them down
[12:21:24] <amee2k> Steffanx: well, i'm using the same room for pretty much everything from office to machine shop. that makes maintaining a low-dust environment somewhat challenging
[12:21:27] <CapnKernel> They are incredibly noisy, but pure pleasure to type on.
[12:21:44] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/commerce/commerce_index.php
[12:22:16] <amee2k> CapnKernel: i was looking for one a few years ago but couldn't find any
[12:22:19] <dirty_d> i want a keyboard with leds under the keys and clear plastic where the letters are for black ops typing
[12:22:27] <learningc> Tom_itx: does atmel give away free samples?
[12:22:31] <dirty_d> i think ive seen then, but its more than just that
[12:22:35] <dirty_d> and very expensive
[12:22:45] <Kevin`> ooh, you are selling the 32u2 boards now
[12:23:04] <amee2k> either way, i'm not trying to achieve orgasm by typing. i just don't want to worry about my keyb trying to escape from my desk after half a year
[12:23:42] <Steffanx> Kevin` you should visit that website more often..
[12:23:53] <amee2k> dirty_d: they sell keybs like that for gamers. but the quality is usually moderate at best unless you go for ridiculously expensive ones
[12:23:58] <Steffanx> I'm pretty sure he sells them for a while now
[12:23:59] <dirty_d> yea
[12:24:32] <Tom_itx> learningc, they do but i haven't had alot of luck getting any
[12:24:47] <Tom_itx> i got some once but the 2nd time they never showed up
[12:24:49] <Landon> dirty_d: so you're not in the market for a das keyboard :P
[12:24:52] <Landon> (always black ops typing)
[12:25:00] <Tom_itx> somewhat depends on your local atmel rep
[12:25:09] <learningc> Tom_itx: me too, at least if they send me some, I'll start using avrs
[12:25:35] <Kevin`> learningc: microcontrollers are cheap and available in single quantities from distributors
[12:25:37] <Steffanx> No money to buy a few AVR's learningc ?
[12:25:38] <Tom_itx> you're better off just ordering a couple different ones
[12:25:47] <Landon> learningc: if you have the money for a programmer surely you can get a few chips
[12:25:52] * Landon is confused
[12:26:10] <Steffanx> Don't be confused Landon
[12:26:12] <Tom_itx> they're not easily obtained in some parts of the world
[12:26:18] <dirty_d> Landon, how much is that
[12:26:30] <Landon> dirty_d: ~100
[12:26:32] <learningc> Steffanx: well, I wish to evaluate them first before spending like $10 if I'm not sure I'll head into that direction
[12:26:37] <Landon> I've been considering one myself (with the letters though :P)
[12:26:49] <Tom_itx> learningc, they're worth it
[12:26:59] <Tom_itx> what have you done in the past?
[12:26:59] <CapnKernel> amee2k: There's a range of model M keyboards on ebay right now
[12:27:14] <amee2k> o.O
[12:27:24] <Tom_itx> don't tell rue
[12:27:58] <learningc> Tom_itx: a robot using avr with sensors and motors, but that chip belongs to school
[12:28:29] <amee2k> CapnKernel: um.. yeah. one is 67EUR and the others are AT connector :P
[12:28:41] <amee2k> thats quite a selection
[12:29:00] * rue_mohr stretches
[12:29:09] <rue_mohr> today feels like a M day...
[12:29:15] <rue_mohr> wonder what an M day is...
[12:29:28] <amee2k> well, 67EUR and over two days left on the auction
[12:29:42] <CapnKernel> Stop crying and get a converter. You could be model Mming in no time.
[12:29:45] <amee2k> my 5 bucks say that its not gonna go down anytime soon :P
[12:30:18] <dirty_d> damnit, of course these connectors dont come with the pins
[12:30:18] <amee2k> i couldn't possibly give less of a fuck about the sticker on the back
[12:30:48] <amee2k> what would be pretty cool is one of these keybs with a trackball on the side
[12:30:53] * CapnKernel can get you an AT keyboard to USB adaptor...
[12:31:12] <rue_mohr> so, for the record, I got radio signal transmission working with a 33.33Mhz computer osc module and a modified RC car reciever
[12:31:22] <CapnKernel> Cool!!!
[12:31:44] <Tom_itx> how many inductors did you unwind to get there?
[12:31:58] <rue_mohr> results indicate ppm is the best thing to use over OOK
[12:32:18] <rue_mohr> Tom_itx, funny thing was, I had to put back the origional inductor and change the cap
[12:32:24] <rue_mohr> from 8pf to 5pf
[12:32:35] <dirty_d> what are the female pins called that go inside the connectors on the power/reset wire connectors for a computer
[12:32:38] <learningc> Tom_itx: what cad do you use to route your pcb?
[12:32:40] <abcminiuser> Urgh
[12:32:43] <dirty_d> or servo connectors
[12:32:46] <Tom_itx> eagle
[12:32:47] <rue_mohr> by the time I'd taken the new inductor down to 5 turns it couldn't resonate anymore
[12:32:49] <abcminiuser> I have my XMEGA USART driver, and my SPI driver
[12:32:59] <amee2k> CapnKernel: wtf do i want with an AT adapter??
[12:33:04] <abcminiuser> But the USART can be set to operate as a SPI master, where the crap do I put that code?
[12:33:09] <abcminiuser> In the USART, or the SPI?
[12:33:22] <Tom_itx> branch
[12:33:54] <Tom_itx> in the hybrid section
[12:33:58] <learningc> Tom_itx: do you send your layouts to board house?
[12:34:46] <amee2k> CapnKernel: i want an ISA to PCI-E adapter and 2.6 drivers for my dad's sony double-speed cd-rom drive \o/
[12:35:06] <Steffanx> I would say .. the usart abcminiuser
[12:35:09] <CapnKernel> Plug the model M keyboard into it so you can type on it
[12:35:17] <abcminiuser> Steffanx, yeah, guess so
[12:35:28] <abcminiuser> Sucks because my dataflash driver assumes the user configures the SPI
[12:35:29] <Tom_itx> learningc, yes sometimes
[12:35:36] <abcminiuser> Which in this case would be the USART - confusing to the user
[12:35:53] <amee2k> its one of these drives where you push against the tray and the whole drive mechanism pops out
[12:35:53] <Tom_itx> well they're gonna be confused anyway if they're using XMEGA
[12:36:19] <amee2k> and you have to pull it out and open the top... sort of like a discman in 5.25" case
[12:36:20] <abcminiuser> XMEGAs are actually really really awesome from my experiements
[12:36:23] <Tom_itx> and if they read the docs they will understand it will go either way
[12:36:26] <learningc> Tom_itx: how much does it cost you?
[12:36:33] <abcminiuser> My issue is that ther can do a BILLION COOL THINGS and it's hard to remember them all
[12:36:44] <amee2k> and it has a proprietary ISA controller card and had drivers on a 5.25" floppy
[12:36:49] <Tom_itx> itead is pretty reasonable, so is laen's service for small quantities
[12:36:51] <abcminiuser> Case in point - inverted port GPIO, so no more inverting bits in software for active low buttons or LEDs
[12:36:58] <Tom_itx> $5 sq in from him and you get 3 back
[12:37:11] <amee2k> that drive would look so cool in an i7 box
[12:37:57] <dirty_d> what the hell, the picture even has the pins in it, i just got the plastic part in the bag... http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/103648-2/?qs=ZDXmSm13592dAnZIrwFXgg%3d%3d
[12:38:40] <CapnKernel> OMG that link comes up in Chinese for me :-)
[12:39:18] <learningc> Tom_itx: laen's service?
[12:39:30] <Kevin`> dirty_d: mm, it does specify contact material there too
[12:40:23] <specing> mouser sells to china? :O
[12:40:42] <dirty_d> Kevin`, yea i know
[12:40:45] <CapnKernel> Yes
[12:40:48] <rue_mohr> abcminiuser, ... your telling me people dont want to have their bits go low, so they have to have a new hardware subsystem to invert them so users dont have to use 0's instead of 1's!?!?!
[12:40:55] <dirty_d> maybe theyre in another bag
[12:41:22] <abcminiuser> rue_mohr, it makes code with mixed LED polarity beautiful
[12:41:24] <CapnKernel> Since most of the world's electronics manufacturing happens here, everyone has an office in China, and usually one of the biggest
[12:41:36] <rue_mohr> 1 xor instruction
[12:41:43] <abcminiuser> Code then can pretend everything is active high, and then do the inversion automatically in hardware, no code needed
[12:41:43] <rue_mohr> all it takes...
[12:41:51] <CapnKernel> "Fix it in hardware" :-)
[12:41:56] <Kevin`> rue_mohr: that's an instruction.
[12:42:06] <rue_mohr> software fixed in hardware, what is the world comming to
[12:42:08] <Kevin`> rue_mohr: there's a bunch of other neat things the io pins too too, btw
[12:42:19] <CapnKernel> learningc: http://dorkbotpdx.org/
[12:42:22] <abcminiuser> rue_mohr, combine this with the atomic GPIO bit set register, and you have native speed IO with whatever polarity you like
[12:42:31] <abcminiuser> GODDAM AMAZING
[12:42:47] <CapnKernel> Bed time for me...
[12:43:32] <OndraSter> what will caps, rated for 10V, do on 12V power supply?
[12:43:35] <OndraSter> I hope they won't blow :D
[12:43:47] <OndraSter> because 22uF ceramic for >10V are not cheap
[12:44:04] <OndraSter> and if they are, they are not in stock in Europe on farnell
[12:44:12] <OndraSter> I might actually take two
[12:44:14] <OndraSter> and stick them in series
[12:44:31] <OndraSter> bodge connection
[12:44:32] <OndraSter> oh well
[12:44:37] <rue_mohr> did they make registers that always have values of 0 and 1 too?
[12:44:40] <rue_mohr> :/
[12:44:53] <rue_mohr> cause not having them is a waste of time and space
[12:45:27] <learningc> CapnKernel: group ordering?
[12:45:42] <CapnKernel> That's what laen does, yes.
[12:46:28] <rue_mohr> sorry people I'm NOT on the xmega band wagon
[12:47:13] <CapnKernel> I think I'm going to be going straight to ARM
[12:47:23] * rue_mohr concurrs
[12:47:38] <CapnKernel> Good night all
[12:47:49] <rue_mohr> avrs for me are 8 bit io subcontrollers
[12:48:27] <rue_mohr> or for simple tasks, heck a lot of things I'd like to do with PAL but the industry keeps all that so secret that I cant get into it
[12:48:28] <CapnKernel> I like ATtinys like the ATtiny85, simply because of their size. Be nice if they were a bit cheaper though.
[12:48:53] <OndraSter> gn
[12:48:55] <rue_mohr> thejester is playing with xlinux fpga, I might catch a ride with him for a while on that
[12:48:56] <CapnKernel> You can get 32-bit ARM chips with about the same memory as the ATmegas for about a dollar.
[12:49:09] <CapnKernel> And in PDIP too
[12:49:19] <rue_mohr> is that the msp430 stuff?
[12:49:34] <rue_mohr> I'm sure msp430 is different
[12:49:39] <specing> CapnKernel: PDIP ARMS?!!?!
[12:49:42] <Kevin`> msp430 isn't arm
[12:49:43] <CapnKernel> YES
[12:49:51] <CapnKernel> PDIP ARMs
[12:50:09] * rue_mohr pictures a 168 pin pdip
[12:50:11] <learningc> pdip arm? from who?
[12:50:15] <Kevin`> CapnKernel: develop, compile, and debug with opensource hardware+software, those chips?
[12:50:17] <CapnKernel> NXP
[12:50:19] <CapnKernel> http://www.nxp.com/news/press-releases/2011/10/nxp-cortex-m0-microcontrollers-in-high-volume-tssop-and-so-packages-target-8-16-bit-applications.html
[12:50:59] <rue_mohr> yea nxp has a 'dont use 8 or 16 bit' campain
[12:51:57] <rue_mohr> and here I am working on making rom state machines to try to get things simplier
[12:52:41] <rue_mohr> wow, I have over 1.5 hours till lunch, usually I need to start lunch before breakfast to keep up
[12:52:46] <specing> Meh NXP
[12:52:58] <rue_mohr> the NXP 8051 were cool
[12:53:01] * specing pictures lego mindstorms
[12:53:04] <specing> nah, not for me
[12:53:16] <rue_mohr> I have it right here, but they just obsoleted it
[12:53:41] <learningc> the laen's service, how much do they charge?
[12:53:54] <CapnKernel> learningc: Dude, read his website!
[12:54:01] <CapnKernel> http://dorkbotpdx.org/
[12:55:17] <rue_mohr> the nxp mcu's lack hardware subsystems
[12:55:19] <Tom_itx> learningc, i told you it's $5 per sq in and you get 3 back
[12:55:23] <learningc> CapnKernel: but I don't like in the same city
[12:55:28] <Tom_itx> and overseas shipping
[12:55:33] <Tom_itx> US is included i think
[12:55:44] <learningc> live
[12:55:55] <Tom_itx> neither do i
[12:56:07] <learningc> Tom_itx: what do you mean you get 3 back?
[12:56:08] <Tom_itx> he ships worldwide
[12:56:15] <rue_mohr> only 32k flash, only 5 adc channels that are only 10 bit... dont say anything about pin change interrupt...
[12:56:26] <Tom_itx> you pay for the sq in for one board and he sends you back 3 boards
[12:57:09] <learningc> Tom_itx: so you get 4 boards?
[12:57:15] <Tom_itx> you get 3
[12:57:28] <learningc> ah
[12:57:43] <learningc> Tom_itx: he does the manufacturing?
[12:58:04] <Tom_itx> no he panelizes them and sends them to a US Board MFG
[12:58:39] <rue_mohr> dk has no nxp in dip
[12:58:40] <Tom_itx> http://dorkbotpdx.org/wiki/pcb_order
[12:59:46] <learningc> Tom_itx: does he make money out of the service he offers?
[12:59:58] <Tom_itx> probably some i'm sure
[13:00:11] <Tom_itx> but he puts alot of time in panelizing and shipping etc
[13:00:20] <Tom_itx> keeping track of who's is who's
[13:00:55] <Tom_itx> when he started he was doing one once a month
[13:01:01] <Tom_itx> now it's about every 4 days
[13:01:19] <Tom_itx> minimal waiting time on a batch order
[13:01:23] <Tom_itx> unlike some
[13:02:07] <learningc> so he does everything for others?
[13:02:31] <Tom_itx> what do you mean?
[13:02:48] <cyanide> can i have an interrupt on pcint8 or above that is triggered using a change in the signal of a analog hall effect sensor?
[13:03:21] <cyanide> the hall effect sensor signal pin will go to pcint8, for example
[13:03:49] <Kevin`> cyanide: pin change interrupts are digigal. if the signal is analog, to do that you'd need to use either the analog comparator in some fancy way, poll adc, or use external circuitry
[13:04:09] <cyanide> oh
[13:04:13] <learningc> Tom_itx: like people send him orders, he panelized the layouts, then when recieve the PCB, he send them all too people?
[13:04:15] <cyanide> thats why it didnt work lol
[13:04:26] <cyanide> ill just buy hall effect sensors which output digital
[13:06:21] <Kevin`> cyanide: your reason for doing this is turning the cpu completely off or such to save power, right?
[13:07:00] <Tom_itx> learningc yes
[13:07:53] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/atmega32u4/atmega32U4_3.jpg
[13:07:56] <Tom_itx> he did those
[13:07:59] <learningc> Tom_itx: that sounds too nice of him :)
[13:08:14] <Tom_itx> i just happened to get in on a batch that somebody needed gold plating
[13:08:23] <Tom_itx> not usually the case
[13:08:41] <pc_magas> Kalispera
[13:08:42] <cyanide> Kevin`, no
[13:08:43] <learningc> Tom_itx: how much did you pay including shipping?
[13:08:49] <Kevin`> cyanide: why, then?
[13:08:55] <pc_magas> Goodevening
[13:08:59] <Tom_itx> i don't remember but it was $5 / sq in
[13:09:04] <Tom_itx> not much
[13:09:06] <cyanide> i want to measure individual wheel speeds on my car
[13:09:34] <learningc> Tom_itx: so one of these board is 1 sq in exactly?
[13:09:40] <Tom_itx> no
[13:09:52] <Tom_itx> but he charges by the sq in
[13:10:00] <Kevin`> cyanide: ah, so you are doing a pulse counter. be VERY careful if you are selecting a digital one, that it does what you want
[13:10:06] <Tom_itx> you can figure it from the board outline
[13:10:20] <rue_mohr> iirc my baords are about 10c/sq in
[13:10:23] <learningc> Tom_itx: ah I see, plus $5 shippinh?
[13:10:26] <Tom_itx> 2 sq in would be $10 and you get 3 of them back
[13:10:31] <cyanide> what should i watch out for Kevin`?
[13:10:52] <Tom_itx> Shipping within the US is included, and there are no setup fees.
[13:11:07] <Kevin`> cyanide: the interface might not be designed for pulses, it might give you a nice signal level value instead digitally
[13:11:07] <learningc> Tom_itx: so you are in the us?
[13:11:13] <Tom_itx> yup
[13:11:24] <learningc> Tom_itx: I'm in Canada :(
[13:11:27] <Kevin`> cyanide: how long is the pulse you need to detect?
[13:11:51] <rue_mohr> 1 to 2 ms
[13:12:08] <rue_mohr> occurs at 50hz
[13:12:41] <cyanide> Kevin`, max freq assuming a single pulse per revolution is about 100 hz per sensor
[13:12:52] <cyanide> multiply that by 4 for all wheels
[13:12:57] <Kevin`> cyanide: I mean the length of the pulse itself
[13:13:09] <cyanide> dont know, depends on what trigger wheel i go with
[13:13:41] <Kevin`> cyanide: you should investigate using the analog comparator on-chip. that can generate interrupts and doesn't need cpu intervention
[13:14:23] * rue_mohr draws flow charts for the digital scope code..
[13:14:36] <cyanide> i have a atmega168 btw
[13:14:38] <Kevin`> compare the signal to either a set point (pot, etc) or a filtered and biased version of the signal itself (a few resistors and such)
[13:14:58] <cyanide> thats beyond my comprehension right now, honestly
[13:15:30] <cyanide> i think i might go with these http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1GT101DC/480-2021-ND/701375
[13:15:45] <learningc> Tom_itx: the $5/1sq in layout price, can it be of any dimension, example 0.1in x 10in?
[13:15:48] <cyanide> theyre made for automotive use anyway
[13:16:03] <rue_mohr> OOOOO
[13:16:14] <Tom_itx> yes
[13:16:36] <Tom_itx> any shape or size within a 10 x 15" board size iirc
[13:16:39] <rue_mohr> I can use / \ - and _ to request the scope give me a trigger on rising, falling, high or low
[13:16:53] <learningc> rue_mohr: how do you get it to 10c/sq in?
[13:17:14] <rue_mohr> resist plotter
[13:17:42] <learningc> rue_mohr: you built your own plotter?
[13:17:57] <rue_mohr> no I have an xy table plotter, but you could use a reprap
[13:18:00] <rue_mohr> ;)
[13:18:29] * rue_mohr waits for the clicks...
[13:19:48] <learningc> rue_mohr: and the ink is special for PCB?
[13:19:57] <rue_mohr> no
[13:20:14] <rue_mohr> stedler or bic pens
[13:20:40] <learningc> rue_mohr: what resolution do you get with it?
[13:21:36] <learningc> rue_mohr: what's the smallest trace width you can do?
[13:22:27] <rue_mohr> I can do down to .05" pitch
[13:22:40] <rue_mohr> the plotter positions within .002
[13:23:22] <learningc> that's 50 mils?
[13:23:52] <learningc> rue_mohr: any picture?
[13:24:49] <rue_mohr> !assist etch
[13:24:50] <tobbor> Possibly http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/etch
[13:25:14] <rue_mohr> http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/tutorials/elex/etch/pcb_etching.html
[13:25:23] <rue_mohr> 5? years ago I move things around and I'm still lost
[13:27:09] <rue_mohr> so how long till we have multihead colour repraps?
[13:29:50] <learningc> rue_mohr: how much did that plotter cost you?
[13:29:55] <rue_mohr> nothing
[13:30:21] <learningc> rue_mohr: how did you get it?
[13:30:37] <OndraSter> I had plotter once
[13:30:38] <OndraSter> some super old
[13:30:39] <OndraSter> LPT
[13:30:41] <OndraSter> it broke :(
[13:30:43] <rue_mohr> retired electronics guy
[13:30:54] <rue_mohr> easy to make
[13:31:07] <rue_mohr> me and rifraf made one, I didn't get the firmware finished tho
[13:31:16] <learningc> rue_mohr: you made that plotter?
[13:32:59] <rue_mohr> http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/images/plotter/dscn6803.jpg
[13:33:10] <rue_mohr> all the images for the build are in that directory
[13:56:35] <learningc> rue_mohr: how long did it take you to finish it?
[14:12:21] <OndraSter> http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/ele/2845766294.html
[14:12:24] <OndraSter> anyone can confirm this? :P
[14:13:57] <carp3> lol
[14:18:54] <specing> lol
[14:29:04] <learningc> $340 ? wth?
[14:29:29] <OndraSter> for a time machine?
[14:29:30] <OndraSter> not bad
[14:29:38] <learningc> what?
[14:29:51] <OndraSter> read it again
[14:29:53] <learningc> it's an old piece of junk
[14:30:02] <OndraSter> read the title and text
[14:30:20] <learningc> what's about it?
[14:30:25] <OndraSter> ..
[14:30:27] <OndraSter> TIME MACHINE
[14:30:28] <OndraSter> blabla
[14:30:30] <OndraSter> TIME MACHINE
[14:30:32] <OndraSter> blabla
[14:30:43] <Kevin`> if you don't have the creativity to use a time machine properly, you definitely shouldn't have one
[14:30:45] <cyanide> lmfao
[14:30:53] <learningc> what time machine? he made it up
[14:31:00] <OndraSter> oh god
[14:31:09] <OndraSter> you are not funny guy, learningc
[14:31:33] <learningc> lol
[14:31:39] <specing> ofcourse he is not, he is learning C afterall
[14:31:49] <specing> How can you expect him to be funny?
[14:31:55] <OndraSter> oh
[14:31:56] <OndraSter> that explains
[14:32:09] <specing> He is depressed from pointers 24/7
[14:32:15] <OndraSter> haha ptrs
[14:32:16] <OndraSter> yeah
[14:32:18] <OndraSter> they are depressing
[14:32:19] <OndraSter> to learn
[14:32:38] <learningc> OndraSter: are you planning to buy it? :P
[14:32:59] <OndraSter> no, you won't fix your reputation by trying to be funny now
[14:33:02] * specing assigns NULL to learningc
[14:33:27] <OndraSter> what datatype is learningc?
[14:33:53] <specing> funny *
[14:34:49] <learningc> OndraSter: sarcastic type :P
[14:34:58] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> no, you won't fix your reputation by trying to be funny now
[14:35:00] <OndraSter> ;)
[14:35:18] <OndraSter> back to the beer
[14:35:23] <learningc> OndraSter: I don't need to fic my reputation ;)
[14:35:25] <learningc> fix
[14:35:35] <OndraSter> because you don't have your sourcecode?
[14:36:08] <learningc> na, because is closed source :P
[14:36:48] <OndraSter> If I were you
[14:36:51] <OndraSter> I'd dare not to speak
[14:36:53] <OndraSter> I'd run like hell
[14:36:55] <OndraSter> ..
[14:37:00] <learningc> lol
[14:37:07] <OndraSter> catchy isn't it
[14:37:34] <learningc> were you gonna shoot me? :)
[14:37:43] <OndraSter> maybe..
[14:37:49] <OndraSter> darn, new FAMILY GUY TONIGHT!
[14:38:21] <Kevin`> it's just family guy. people watch that?
[14:38:25] <learningc> I'm not sure I'll get the bullet from the screen
[14:38:38] <OndraSter> yes, I watch family guy
[14:38:40] <OndraSter> and american dad
[14:38:42] <OndraSter> and south park
[14:38:46] <OndraSter> and many, many, many, many other TV shows
[14:39:26] <learningc> you forgot the simpsoms :P
[14:39:32] <OndraSter> yeah
[14:39:38] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> and many, many, many, many other TV shows
[14:39:39] <OndraSter> I did o
[14:39:40] <OndraSter> not
[14:40:16] <Kevin`> simpsons and south park are at least watchable most of the time
[14:40:32] <OndraSter> http://tvtorrents.com/loggedin/user.do?id=1375236
[14:40:34] <OndraSter> if you have tvt account
[14:40:38] <OndraSter> there are my favs
[14:40:54] <OndraSter> 41 TV shows in favs lol
[14:40:58] <OndraSter> probably some missing
[14:41:42] <AuroraX> If i do -e in winavr will it erase the bootloader?
[14:57:16] <Jan-> hihi avr peeps :)
[14:57:21] <AuroraX> Hi
[14:57:36] <OndraSter> ey Jan-
[14:57:37] <OndraSter> so
[14:57:38] <AuroraX> Yay i sense life here!
[14:57:43] <OndraSter> I was watching one of the first eps of Invader Zim
[14:57:48] <OndraSter> about the Germs
[14:57:53] <OndraSter> you know what is reminded me of, Jan- ?
[14:58:25] <AuroraX> If i do -e in winavr will it erase the bootloader?
[14:58:41] <Jan-> I don't know what it reminded you of, no.
[14:58:52] <OndraSter> doesn't it depend on the boot lock bits, AuroraX ?
[14:59:06] <OndraSter> Jan-, how you spoke about Australia the other day :D
[14:59:25] <Jan-> hehe
[14:59:31] <Jan-> I guess so.
[15:00:15] <AuroraX> Ondraster: does it? I don't know what are lock bits lol. If so I will read about them
[15:00:25] <OndraSter> not sure right now
[15:00:32] <OndraSter> i am depressed that my holiday end today
[15:00:40] <OndraSter> I had to grab a beer
[15:00:41] <Jan-> Boo :(
[15:01:32] <AuroraX> I have no holidays for 2 years and almost half :(
[15:01:41] <OndraSter> wopw
[15:01:42] * Jan- sneezes
[15:03:02] <AuroraX> At least I like my job ^^
[15:03:15] <Jan-> what do you do
[15:03:17] <OndraSter> I'd love to be doign some hardware too
[15:03:25] <OndraSter> hardware or embedded software
[15:04:54] <AuroraX> I'm a software engineer most of the times ;)
[15:05:04] <Jan-> I want to get on with my hardware project
[15:05:11] <Jan-> but until I have my serial cable it's tricky
[15:05:32] * OndraSter goes afk
[15:05:42] <Jan-> oh, I was going to ask how you were getting on with Zim :)
[15:28:39] <OndraSter> Jan-, finished 11th episode
[15:29:35] <Tom_itx> of what?\
[15:30:04] <OndraSter> of Invader Zim
[15:32:29] <Kevin`> OndraSter: is it good?
[15:32:38] <OndraSter> well it is simple
[15:32:40] <OndraSter> and animated
[15:32:41] <OndraSter> go figure
[15:32:48] <OndraSter> actually no, do not go figure
[15:32:55] <Kevin`> animated stuff isn't always simple
[15:32:56] <OndraSter> family guy, american dad, southpark, all of them are way better
[15:33:03] <Kevin`> ...
[15:33:05] <Kevin`> that's scary
[15:33:17] <OndraSter> but, I am huge fan of FG, AD and SP
[15:33:25] <Kevin`> I can't even watch the introduction to family guy
[15:33:38] <OndraSter> It seems today
[15:33:40] <OndraSter> that all you see
[15:33:45] <Kevin`> noooooo
[15:33:46] <OndraSter> is violence in movies and sex on TV...
[15:33:47] <OndraSter> haha
[15:34:08] <OndraSter> but where are all those good old values... in which we used to rely?
[15:34:12] <OndraSter> :P
[15:34:20] <OndraSter> I remember it after watching all episodes
[15:35:38] <Kevin`> I think american dad my actually be worse than family guy. they clearly try to compete for the title though
[15:36:31] <OndraSter> ... same author :P
[15:36:37] <OndraSter> MacFarlane
[15:41:00] <learningc> good old values?
[15:41:15] <learningc> today's values are better no? :P
[15:42:37] <OndraSter> no
[15:42:43] * OndraSter goes afk again
[15:50:30] <TestJackPot> hi@all
[16:01:14] <keenerd> Woo, more progress on wikireader hacking. http://kmkeen.com/tmp/wikireader2.jpg
[16:03:13] <OndraSter> wikireader? :)
[16:03:52] <OndraSter> oic
[16:14:55] <inflex> keenerd: wow, it's been a LONG time since I've seen that picture
[16:15:02] <inflex> (the girl in the hat on the screen of the wikireader)
[16:15:20] <inflex> (probably 20 years now)
[16:15:38] <keenerd> Lena is still a fairly standard test pattern.
[16:17:48] <keenerd> Though it does break the image blitter a bit. Takes a full 0.5 seconds to draw. Maybe next weekend I can optimize that to something reasonable.
[16:26:21] <rue_mohr> and thus was hacked the hithikers guide to the galaxy
[16:26:53] <keenerd> With the wikitravel database loaded on, it is pretty close :-)
[16:27:25] <OndraSter> babel fish?
[16:27:35] <rue_mohr> not in my ear you dont
[16:48:51] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: by the way, can i make him jump to other than 0x0000?
[16:49:33] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Yes.
[16:49:52] <AuroraX> cool
[16:50:27] <GeorgeJ> void (*my_func)(void) = 0xDEAD;
[16:50:37] <GeorgeJ> But that's not really suggested.
[16:51:10] <AuroraX> so by going to 0x0000 it means that the very first instructions (0x0001 0x0002 ...) are to re-place SP and other "reset" stuff, so how do i know where my code really begins?
[16:51:32] <AuroraX> what happens if i clean the 0x0000 memory to zeros?
[16:51:50] <AuroraX> or this doesnt really make sense because 0x0000 is a virtual memory pointer?
[16:53:01] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: No. At location 0x0000 there's usually a JMP, that jumps to __init(if memory serves right), this is where the AVR libc initialization take place(sets SP, and some other stuff). At the end of __init there's another JMP that jumps to __main(again, if memory serves right).
[16:53:28] <GeorgeJ> __main is a label that marks the starting address of the main() function.
[16:53:50] <AuroraX> so if i overwrite 0x0000 i may get trouble?
[16:54:03] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Try dissasembling a simple C program.
[16:54:08] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Override it how?
[16:54:21] <AuroraX> asking him to write at (0x0000)
[16:54:36] <Casper> AuroraX: at 0x0000 you have the vector table
[16:54:39] <AuroraX> wont he ovewrite the JMP?
[16:54:44] <GeorgeJ> You can't.
[16:54:54] <GeorgeJ> Not with simple pointers anyway.
[16:54:54] <Casper> the vector table is a table of jump for ALL the interrupts
[16:55:11] <Casper> the first vector, located at 0x0000 is the reset vector
[16:55:32] <Casper> a jump is placed there that go to the init code, which then go to the main code
[16:55:35] <GeorgeJ> 0x0000 is within program address space, which can't de modified during runtime without any extra help.
[16:55:49] <GeorgeJ> Casper: Nope.
[16:56:00] <Casper> the other vector address are all the interrupts
[16:56:10] <GeorgeJ> Casper: Not with C anyway, there's an initialization routine before jumping to the main code.
[16:56:32] <Casper> those vector also contain jumps to the proper interrupts function
[16:56:55] <Casper> unused interrupt still have a jump, to a bad interrupt function, which basically halt the execution
[16:57:08] <Casper> GeorgeJ: that's what I said, jmp to init to main
[16:57:27] <GeorgeJ> Ah sorry, I missread.
[16:58:16] <Casper> if you do NOT use interrupts, you can actually reuse the vector space for program, but that need some hacking... and free only a few bytes, so not worth it
[16:58:39] <AuroraX> hmmm
[16:58:57] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: You got AVR Studio installed?
[16:59:01] <AuroraX> no
[16:59:10] <AuroraX> i just use winavr to upload the code
[16:59:21] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: So you use gcc?
[16:59:23] <AuroraX> how do you have such a profound knowlede on this?
[16:59:26] <AuroraX> yes
[16:59:57] <GeorgeJ> If you know how to produce assembly output, and know some basica assembly, you'll see how it's all done.
[17:00:19] <OndraSter> -13C
[17:00:26] <OndraSter> and about 20cm of snow here
[17:00:30] <OndraSter> somewhere 30
[17:00:37] <OndraSter> and on mountains few m
[17:00:59] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: all the memory within the program address space shouldn't be readable and writable?
[17:01:08] <OndraSter> oh damn
[17:01:10] <OndraSter> wrong channel
[17:01:11] <Steffanx> Send the snow to me OndraSter
[17:01:12] <OndraSter> sorry lol
[17:01:21] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: i know how to put it in .hex
[17:01:27] <GeorgeJ> OndraSter: In a village, not that far away from my city, the snow covers the entire houses. They've gotta borrow underneath the snow to get the people out.
[17:01:38] <grummund> AuroraX: program is in flash memory (so read only, generally)
[17:02:11] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: No, AVR has a Harvar achitecture, which means it has sepparate address spaces for program and data memory.
[17:02:15] <GeorgeJ> Harvard*
[17:02:48] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: The program memory is usually just read-only. You can modify it with some extra functions, but not dirrectly by using pointers. You can only modify ram with pointers.
[17:03:44] <grummund> also, to note: 0x0000 location in flash is not the same as 0x0000 location in ram.
[17:03:54] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: You can check out the datasheet to see how the memory is mapped. Your compiler usually knows all this data from included headers.
[17:04:16] <GeorgeJ> grummund: Well, that's not really well put.
[17:04:40] <GeorgeJ> grummund: There's only one address space. Just split into multiple regions.
[17:04:57] <Casper> OndraSter: almost no snow here
[17:05:01] <Casper> which is really worrysome
[17:05:21] <OndraSter> grummund, no, there are two address spaces on AVRs
[17:05:41] <grummund> um, that's what i said.
[17:05:51] <GeorgeJ> I think he ment it for me.
[17:05:52] <OndraSter> oh sorry
[17:05:53] <OndraSter> yeah
[17:06:09] <OndraSter> it was ment for GeorgeJ
[17:06:10] <grummund> heh. it was meant for AuroraX
[17:06:43] <OndraSter> I am off
[17:06:44] <GeorgeJ> Well, not yes, but the address spaces are split within the same addressing scheme(?).
[17:06:44] <OndraSter> bb
[17:06:53] <OndraSter> duh?
[17:06:57] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: wich datasheet? there are like 3 for ATmega128/328 the summary one with 100 pages and one with 700 i guess, the last one is the best probably right?
[17:07:28] <AuroraX> im afraid that for every uC that i need to program to, i have to read so many pages
[17:07:30] <AuroraX> that scares me
[17:07:34] <OndraSter> there are two separate addressing parts (don'T want to say buses). address 0x0000 for LPM instructions and such are for FLASH
[17:07:44] <grummund> AuroraX: what actually are you trying to do?
[17:07:53] <OndraSter> address 0x0000 for LD is in RAM
[17:08:08] <OndraSter> (wrong example?)
[17:08:14] <OndraSter> too late to think
[17:08:15] <OndraSter> bb
[17:08:24] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: There's a LOT of repetition within the datasheets.
[17:08:33] * Jan- wakes up
[17:08:38] <Jan-> Bleargh! Flwrghth! Smrgh!
[17:08:40] <GeorgeJ> The peripherals the AVR's have are usually simmilar.
[17:08:44] <Jan-> ...wrgh?
[17:08:46] <Jan-> ...gah
[17:09:16] <GeorgeJ> Every datasheets documents all the peripherals in details, with code examples, if I'm not mistaken.
[17:09:38] <learningc> Casper: you do any electronics?
[17:09:48] <AuroraX> grummund: nothing special, i've made a project that was programming an RFM12 transceiver with AVR on arduino (without using the IDE, pure AVR and gcc with winavr for uploading), and now im interested in this science :P
[17:09:56] <Casper> learningc: some as hobby
[17:10:19] <Casper> learningc: earlier on the firefighter radio....
[17:10:23] <learningc> Casper: what sort of projects?
[17:10:24] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: hope so, i'll try to read the whole 700 pages, so that i can get a feeling of this and the later uC's that i shall use be easier to grasp
[17:11:05] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Don't do that, you'll probably give up. Only read the regions you are interested in.
[17:11:16] <GeorgeJ> Datasheets are not ment as learning material.
[17:11:17] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: is that sometimes i see in foruns that datasheets dont cover everything and online tutorials help to fill those holes
[17:11:21] <Casper> .. I heard "mayday mayday mayday" "mayday mayday mayday" "Central, did I heard mayday mayday mayday?" "heeee we're doing some exercices and we wasn't on the right frequency"
[17:11:48] <Steffanx> lol Casper
[17:11:48] <grummund> AuroraX: sounds like you'd benefit from a tutorial on assembly programming and dabble with that
[17:11:49] <Casper> learningc: made a psu that I still need to finish and some other projects that... never finished :D
[17:12:15] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: i dont know wich regions are those. I would be very interested on the regions that could give me such a profound knowledge of this architecture and "teaks/tricks/hacks" that you know and we have been talking so far
[17:12:43] <timemage> Casper, sounds like a bad idea to say that on any frequency.
[17:12:54] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: You shouldn't do any hacks before you're confortable with your uC.
[17:12:59] <Steffanx> Except for the test frequency, timemage
[17:13:17] <timemage> Steffanx, there's a dedicated frequency for that?
[17:13:22] <Steffanx> I've no idea :)
[17:13:31] <timemage> Steffanx, heh
[17:13:36] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: im not doing so, but i while i was reading the bootloader code so that i can understand what's under the arduino's hood, i needed to know that
[17:13:48] <AuroraX> because the guy that programmed it, knows alot of tricks
[17:13:54] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Datasheets have indexes. If you're interested in C specifics, you can read the avr libc documentation, which should be included with your winavr instalation.
[17:14:29] <Casper> timemage: yeah, now... imagine a joker transmitting that on their frequency...
[17:14:32] <timemage> Steffanx, see i've been tempted to test 911 bridge to landline when messing with voip systems. but i've never done it out through a real line. pretty sure they don't want you testing.
[17:14:36] <Casper> ... that nobody know who it is
[17:15:04] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: There's no quick guide to learning EVERYTHING about AVR's.
[17:15:45] <Steffanx> Who knows timemage :)
[17:16:02] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: To learn about C specifics, you need to read the C standard, the documentation for avr-gcc and its documentation(including the stdlib). This alone will take a lot of time. It would be preffered if you knew assembly beforehand.
[17:17:19] <Casper> learningc: going take a small nap, see ya later :D
[17:17:20] <GeorgeJ> The assembly is described in the datasheet, instruction set, everything it does, how it affects the CPU, etc.
[17:17:26] <learningc> Casper: ok
[17:17:31] <timemage> Steffanx, that is the question. i couldn't find any official answer. i would think they'd have some sort of official phrase you can read to mark the test and then hang up.
[17:17:39] <learningc> Casper: btw what happened with the fire yesterday?
[17:17:55] <Steffanx> Hehe timemage :)
[17:18:00] <GeorgeJ> But you shouldn't read the timer peripheral section of the datasheet if you're only interested in the interrupt vectors.
[17:18:04] <Casper> learningc: the reno depot? dunnot, they were on local frequency, but they used the sprinkers
[17:18:14] <AuroraX> grummund: like what?
[17:18:28] <Casper> and couln't contact anyone
[17:18:37] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: The more you learn, the more you find out how little you do actually know. Hehe.
[17:18:38] <learningc> Casper: ah ok.
[17:18:59] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: lol really? why?
[17:19:07] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Because that
[17:19:13] <Casper> bbl
[17:19:20] <grummund> AuroraX: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=avr+assembly+tutorial
[17:19:20] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Because that's what usually happens. Everything is infinitely complex. :>
[17:19:44] <AuroraX> is AVR a good place to invest my time? or from one or 2 years from now, AVR will be deprecated?
[17:19:55] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Depends on the application.
[17:20:41] <GeorgeJ> I worked on AVR's quite a bit. But I'm thinking of switching to ARM's. The cortexes are awesome!
[17:21:17] <GeorgeJ> More memory, more speed, less code, less power used, almost the same form-factor.
[17:21:47] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: aren't they more expensive too?
[17:22:09] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Not really. I believe I've seen some cheaper than AVR's.
[17:22:18] <grummund> AVR is a good choice to be starting with. especially if one is of the mindset to want to understand the internals.
[17:22:26] <GeorgeJ> Not as easy to get started though, afaik.
[17:22:32] <GeorgeJ> Yeah.
[17:23:14] <AuroraX> for a person who uses ATmega128/328, is there any ARM equivallent/simillar in price and features?
[17:23:28] <GeorgeJ> I don't like and of that high-level crap(arduino's for examples). Objects for everything. I like creating my own drivers and knowing what happens everywhere.
[17:25:08] <AuroraX> i use arduino just for the easiness to program using USB
[17:25:13] <AuroraX> i dont use IDE
[17:25:40] <AuroraX> but i have to admmit that IDe is very important to learn and start learning this stuff
[17:28:53] <keenerd> AuroraX: Check out out http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ , it is a normal AVR with built in programmer and real USB.
[17:30:02] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Well, NXP's Cortex M3's are pretty cool and in the same price range, but WAAY better.
[17:30:59] <GeorgeJ> I think they're mostly in LQFP(smd's).
[17:31:11] <AuroraX> omg that teensy looks so cool
[17:31:24] <GeorgeJ> I believe you also use GCC, I'm not sure exactly, haven't reasearched too much.
[17:31:28] <AuroraX> GeorgeJ: i didnt understand a thing of what you said right now :)
[17:31:35] <AuroraX> lol
[17:31:43] <GeorgeJ> I also don't know how to program them. I'm not sure if there's a special interface or JTAG.
[17:32:20] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: You asked for a MCU with a ARM CPU within the same price range of a mega128.
[17:32:26] <AuroraX> it uses a bootloader too
[17:32:36] <GeorgeJ> The Cortex M3 is 32bit though, which is awesome!
[17:32:48] <AuroraX> NXP's Cortex M3 are their names?
[17:32:53] <AuroraX> cool
[17:32:55] <AuroraX> same price??
[17:32:57] <AuroraX> 5$?
[17:33:00] <GeorgeJ> I believe it runs up to 130mhz. With less power usage than the AVR,
[17:33:02] <GeorgeJ> Yup.
[17:33:47] <AuroraX> Teensy is arduino based
[17:33:55] <AuroraX> but MUCH cheaper
[17:34:08] <nevyn> so it can be. but isn't nessicarilly aiui
[17:34:11] <AuroraX> anyway, i dont buy arduinos, just have one so that i can bootload other atmegas lol :P
[17:34:16] <keenerd> "arduino based"... What?
[17:34:22] <keenerd> No it is not.
[17:34:25] <GeorgeJ> Mostly all nowadays smartphones have an ARM CPU. Which has the same instruction set as M3's, actually I believe M3's is just a subset of thumb2.
[17:34:30] <AuroraX> keenerd: Teensyduino, add-on for Arduino IDE.
[17:34:58] <AuroraX> keenerd: check the botton of this page http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/teensyduino.html
[17:35:09] <keenerd> AuroraX: You have it backwards. It is an AVR. It can run the aurduino stuff. Thus it can be supported by the IDE.
[17:35:57] <AuroraX> oh i see
[17:36:18] <AuroraX> it has built-in USB
[17:36:22] <AuroraX> oh god
[17:36:23] <AuroraX> how?
[17:36:32] <nevyn> ?
[17:36:35] <GeorgeJ> The teensy?
[17:36:41] <AuroraX> arduino uses an atmega just to make usb to serial bridge
[17:36:44] <AuroraX> yes
[17:36:58] <GeorgeJ> Hehe, there are atmega's with USB peripherals.
[17:37:00] <keenerd> Turns out Atmel makes chips with integrated USB hardware.
[17:37:07] <nevyn> well on the uno. the older stuff used a ftdi
[17:37:12] <GeorgeJ> or ATusb's I'm not completely sure.
[17:38:26] <GeorgeJ> The ARM's have USB slave/host capability, eternet MMI, CAN busses, and a lot of other stuff in one. Atmega's usually havejust one of those peripherals available.
[17:39:03] <AuroraX> CAN busses? omg i feel lost between so much technlogy lol
[17:39:28] <AuroraX> " The more you learn, the more you find out how little you do actually know." starting to feel it XD
[17:39:39] <GeorgeJ> And I believe they support exteral interrupts on I/O pins.
[17:40:13] <nevyn> AuroraX: CAN is probably something you can safely ignore.
[17:40:20] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Well, a CAN bus is just one of the gazzilion busses that exist, like SPI, USB, I2C, PCI, etc ..
[17:40:41] <AuroraX> CAN is meant for cars right?
[17:40:49] <AuroraX> i ha classes on that protocol
[17:41:10] <AuroraX> so my study plans are: understand atmegaXX8 and AVR, then discover the ARM world
[17:41:11] <nevyn> it's used for other stuff but that's it's primary target
[17:41:25] <GeorgeJ> Aye.
[17:41:50] <nevyn> so what's the difference between atmegaXX8 and AVR?
[17:42:01] <nevyn> isn't a atmegaXX8 by definition an AVR?
[17:42:11] <GeorgeJ> It is.
[17:42:43] * nevyn isn't convinced about mega32
[17:42:51] <nevyn> well Xmega rather
[17:43:09] <GeorgeJ> It's an AVR xmega!
[17:43:14] <AuroraX> are ATmegas 32U2 or wtvr named like this AVR too?
[17:43:44] <nevyn> a 32u2 or 32u4 is the chip in a teensy (and the arduino leonardo)
[17:43:48] <AuroraX> if all of them are AVR, what really changes on them? does it mean that code from ATmegaABC can literaly run on ATmegaDEF?
[17:43:53] <GeorgeJ> AVR is Atmel's microprocessor product line. If I'm not mistaken.
[17:44:18] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Nope. They might have different peripherals.
[17:44:23] <nevyn> AVR is the cpu in the atmega SOC
[17:44:28] <nevyn> right?
[17:44:43] <GeorgeJ> AuroraX: Different registers, different memory sizes, etc.
[17:45:40] <GeorgeJ> The instruction sets are pretty much the same between MCU classes(ATmega, ATtiny, ATXmega, AVR32).
[17:46:08] <nevyn> arn't those different bitwidths?
[17:46:25] <nevyn> so AVR32 is imho pointless..
[17:46:35] <GeorgeJ> Wut? Bits have the same width. Hehe.
[17:46:47] <nevyn> machine word then?
[17:47:01] <GeorgeJ> Yeah, tbh, AVR is getting kind outdated IMHO.
[17:47:22] <nevyn> ARM is winning in 32bit
[17:47:29] <Tom_itx> the 32U2 U4 are 8bit usb enabled avrs
[17:47:35] <nevyn> right.
[17:47:37] <Tom_itx> U4 has adc and more pins
[17:47:52] <Tom_itx> nice little chip
[17:47:52] <GeorgeJ> Yeah, the Cortex M3 for example, same price range as AVR's but WAAAY better. And it's 32bit.
[17:48:14] <Tom_itx> alot more complex to master
[17:48:26] <nevyn> GeorgeJ: more serial ports etc etc etc.
[17:48:28] <GeorgeJ> 5$ chip with ethernet, usb host, loads of other cool stuff.
[17:48:39] <nevyn> Tom_itx: how many people master even a atmega 168 or atmega328
[17:48:41] <GeorgeJ> Tom_itx: Well, I guess.
[17:48:51] <Tom_itx> i have a cortex m4
[17:49:11] <Tom_itx> nevyn, i think i have to a fair degree
[17:49:13] <nevyn> the whole point of this sort of stuff is to do simple things quickly with maybe some level of hard rtish expectation
[17:49:18] <GeorgeJ> I got a 1x1mm cortex m0 sample from NXP that I keep in my wallet.
[17:49:34] <Tom_itx> sure it's still there?
[17:49:47] <Tom_itx> a die or a chip?
[17:50:22] <GeorgeJ> I believe it's a chip.
[17:50:28] * nevyn remains impressed with chipfab@home
[17:50:28] <grummund> a.k.a. a grain of sand
[17:51:51] <CanyonMan> GeorgeJ: that's cool
[17:52:13] <CanyonMan> GeorgeJ: I was happy when thumbdrives got cheap enough that I could keep a copy of the human genome in my pants.
[17:52:30] <GeorgeJ> Haha
[17:53:05] <CanyonMan> what m3s are you using that are that cheap?
[17:53:11] <nevyn> CanyonMan: making sure there's documentation when you're abducted by aliens?
[17:53:22] <CanyonMan> nevyn: I didn't think of that, but good thinking
[17:53:27] <GeorgeJ> This is the sample I received: http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/106141/Foto0082.jpg
[17:53:32] <GeorgeJ> I can't find a better picture.
[17:53:40] <GeorgeJ> The small thing in that circle is the chip
[17:53:57] <CanyonMan> I've really only actually used NXP LPC stuff
[17:54:01] <GeorgeJ> It's more than 1x1mm, I forgot it's dimmensions.
[17:54:17] <CanyonMan> and mostly arm7tmdi
[17:54:43] <GeorgeJ> It's 2x2mm
[17:54:58] <CanyonMan> The cheapest I m3 from nxp at mouser is $5.71 ... lpc1751
[17:55:03] <GeorgeJ> http://320volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/lpc1102.jpg
[17:55:40] <CanyonMan> which is 100 MHz, 32K code, 8K ram, CAN, I2C, SPI, UART, timers, etc
[17:56:21] <CanyonMan> by comparison, the ATMega328-PAU is $3.85
[17:56:22] <GeorgeJ> That has 8kB of SRAM, 32KB code, in-app and in-system programing, 32bit, 50mhz.
[17:56:33] <CanyonMan> with a lot less ram
[17:56:36] <GeorgeJ> In just 2x2mm.
[17:58:00] <CanyonMan> LPC1311 $2.08
[17:58:30] <nevyn> you can run a 328 at 50MHz ?
[17:58:40] <GeorgeJ> I don't know why people still use AVR's tbh.
[17:58:53] <CanyonMan> well the arduino people
[17:58:56] <CanyonMan> and there's a lot of them.
[17:59:20] <GeorgeJ> The arduino is for quick and _DIRTY_ stuff.
[17:59:47] <CanyonMan> i dislike arduino
[17:59:58] <CanyonMan> well
[18:00:00] <CanyonMan> is houldn't say that.
[18:00:04] <CanyonMan> I just wouldn't use it for anything.
[18:00:05] <GeorgeJ> And for people who don't actually know programming too well, they just hack and guess to a solution.
[18:00:08] <CanyonMan> yeah.
[18:00:30] <Jan-> what's wrong with avrs?
[18:00:35] <Jan-> Bah
[18:00:42] <Tom_itx> for one thing the tools are free and easy to come by
[18:00:43] <CanyonMan> well i mean look at this part
[18:00:43] <CanyonMan> http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers/cortex_m3/lpc1300/LPC1311FHN33.html
[18:00:44] <Jan-> I just started with something and now people are saying it's not the right choice :/
[18:00:49] <GeorgeJ> I never tried it myself. I just don't find it complex enough for mah tastes.
[18:00:56] <Tom_itx> opposed to IAR or some such compiler
[18:01:16] <Jan-> well doesn't it depend what you're doing GeorgeJ
[18:01:27] <CanyonMan> 100% of the work I have done on arm7tmdi was done with gnu-arm gcc
[18:01:32] <GeorgeJ> Jan-: What are you talking about? ARM's or arduino?
[18:01:42] <vectory> avr
[18:01:43] <Jan-> they seem to have super-low power consumption so that you could reasonably use them for battery powered applications that have to run for ages and ages
[18:01:47] <GeorgeJ> Casper: Isn't gnu-arm gcc outdated?
[18:01:49] <Tom_itx> are arm jtag only?
[18:02:14] <nevyn> Jan-: there's a point where you see beyond the abstraction and arduino becomes limiting.
[18:02:25] <nevyn> or overpriced for what you want to do.
[18:02:33] <GeorgeJ> Jan-: better, faster, stronger!
[18:02:41] <Jan-> GeorgeJ: More power-hungry.
[18:02:50] <GeorgeJ> Jan-: The ARM? au contraire.
[18:02:52] <Jan-> nevyn: Well, that's why I went for a raw AVR in the first place.
[18:03:01] <Tom_itx> arm are pretty efficient
[18:03:08] <CanyonMan> yeah there are some low power ones.
[18:03:11] <Jan-> I rather liked the look of the netduino thing
[18:03:11] <vectory> nevyn, your not the target group then, but you can do lots (simple enough) stuff with 'duinos
[18:03:14] <CanyonMan> The MSP430s are still pretty damned low power too
[18:03:17] <Jan-> for more complicated projects
[18:03:19] <nevyn> right.
[18:03:20] <Tom_itx> alot more cycles per instruction though aren't they?
[18:03:28] <nevyn> vectory: don't get me wrong I love arduino for what it is.
[18:03:31] <Jan-> I like C# for desktop apps so maybe I'd be comfortable with it.
[18:03:54] <CanyonMan> for what it is meaning what? Microcontrollers for n00bs ?
[18:04:02] <nevyn> vectory: and I love that it's making micro controllers and C programming accessable to a whole bunch of people who've never used them
[18:04:23] <Tom_itx> and they are more borderline microprocessor than microcontroller
[18:04:36] <nevyn> Tom_itx: ?
[18:04:42] <vectory> msp?
[18:04:45] <Tom_itx> address data buss
[18:04:58] <GeorgeJ> The 2x2mm beast in my wallet(which I received as a sample from NXP a while ago). Has 50mhz, 8kB ram, 32kB code, in-app and in-system programming, 32bit, USART, etc. And I believe it uses less power than any atmega(don't know for sure though).
[18:05:06] <vectory> oh, arm :)
[18:05:31] <Tom_itx> GeorgeJ, and has likely been zapped by your butt
[18:05:34] <nevyn> but smart code on a arm will be lower power than dumb code on an avr.
[18:05:40] <vectory> GeorgeJ: rather unlikely, especially at higher frequencies, i imagine
[18:06:05] <nevyn> if you're not using interrupts and sleep states etc you're going to not be as power efficient as someone who is.
[18:07:01] <GeorgeJ> Doesn't go over 7mA afaik(at about 48mhz @ 3.3v).
[18:07:38] <CanyonMan> i guess for most applications i'd still do m3 rather than m0
[18:07:44] <CanyonMan> the price diff isn't really that huge
[18:07:53] <nevyn> so that's the other thing. to run fast avr's need to be at 5v which is a VCC everyone's moving away from (for the most part
[18:08:14] <Tom_itx> nevyn, not xmegas
[18:08:54] <GeorgeJ> You can probably run linux on a 6-7$ m3. AVR can't.
[18:09:04] <Tom_itx> avr32 can
[18:09:13] <CanyonMan> SUPPOSEDLY the sitara is a $5 processor in quantity
[18:09:17] <GeorgeJ> Tom_itx: Yeah, ofcourse, but within what price range?
[18:09:17] <CanyonMan> *supposedly*
[18:09:34] <CanyonMan> and my am3359 board ... runs linux ... like you wouldn't believe
[18:09:36] <Tom_itx> you just said they can't is all
[18:09:39] <CanyonMan> it's just A-MA-ZING
[18:09:44] <GeorgeJ> Heh.
[18:10:05] <Tom_itx> i agree i don't see much of a market for xmega or avr32
[18:10:08] <nevyn> Tom_itx: so avr8 gets to exist. it's a nice clean harvard architecture with a modern ISA
[18:10:15] <CanyonMan> AM335x is 700 MHz but it's superscalar, and gcc does a pretty good job of optimizing for superscalar
[18:10:22] <CanyonMan> so it might not quit be like 1.4 GHz b it approaches it
[18:10:28] <grummund> all that means is that if you want to run linux then AVR is a bad choice
[18:10:29] <nevyn> but avr32... what's the point. ARM is already here and has tooling and cross vendor support
[18:10:36] <grummund> it says nothing about AVR itself
[18:10:38] <GeorgeJ> I'm not saying I don't like AVR's. They're great, but there are way better alternatives.
[18:10:41] <Jan-> oh dear
[18:10:45] <Jan-> did I make the wrong choice again :/
[18:10:58] <GeorgeJ> Jan-: Avr's are a great platform to get started with.
[18:11:00] <grummund> better alternatives ?? for what?
[18:11:02] <nevyn> so if you choose AVR32 you're buying into a single vendor ISA
[18:11:06] <Jan-> *sigh*
[18:11:14] <Jan-> don't atmel make arm chips too
[18:11:17] <nevyn> Jan-: avr8's are awesome
[18:11:20] <GeorgeJ> I'd recommend not going with arduino though, but that's just personal preference.
[18:11:23] <nevyn> Jan-: they do.
[18:11:38] <Jan-> I avoided arduino
[18:11:41] <nevyn> GeorgeJ: I think of it as training wheels.
[18:11:48] <GeorgeJ> grummund: embedded stuff in general.
[18:11:50] <Jan-> I want to do careful timing and suchlike which would be harder on arduino
[18:11:55] <Jan-> ...or so I read
[18:12:02] <GeorgeJ> nevyn: Indeed.
[18:12:16] <Jan-> Unfortunately the hardware side of it is proving trickier.
[18:12:17] <nevyn> right if you want to do hard RT then arduino may make things more difficult than otherwise
[18:12:19] <grummund> there's no such thing as "better"
[18:12:20] <Jan-> I now need four buttons interfaced.
[18:12:22] <Tom_itx> at any rate, this is an avr support channel. not one to see how far we can pee
[18:12:38] <Jan-> I guess I *could* debounce them in software
[18:12:43] <Jan-> but that could get complicated
[18:12:44] <Tom_itx> don't get me wrong, i'm all for arm
[18:13:22] <Jan-> so now I need four buttons and debouncing circuitry.
[18:13:38] <nevyn> Jan-: just debounce in s/w
[18:13:45] <Jan-> I'm not sure how many timers I have
[18:13:48] * grummund hands Jan a bunch of ceramic caps
[18:13:57] <Jan-> I'd need a timer for each key, I guess
[18:14:00] <Jan-> mindgames
[18:14:00] <GeorgeJ> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WS3pvsOmp4 linux with 1.6uA in idle.
[18:14:06] <Tom_itx> GeorgeJ, why aren't you in ##stm32?
[18:14:23] <GeorgeJ> I guess I got carried away.
[18:14:39] <nevyn> so.. other things that are superneat.
[18:15:03] <Tom_itx> you're not chasing the cortex m4 yet?
[18:15:08] <GeorgeJ> Is that the channel for ARMs? I'm mostly interested in NXP's sollutions not STM's tbh. Is there a specific channel?
[18:15:12] <GeorgeJ> Tom_itx: Me?
[18:15:12] <Jan-> uclinux isn't exciting
[18:15:16] <Tom_itx> yeah
[18:15:16] <Jan-> ucwindows might be
[18:15:16] <nevyn> TI's cc1111 even if it has a horific 82HC11 it has a tranciever in the SOC
[18:15:23] <Tom_itx> it was started for that anyway
[18:15:40] * nevyn wishes Atmel would do something like that.
[18:15:43] <CanyonMan> man you want to hear something really awful
[18:15:57] <CanyonMan> a client of mine neds help replacing an intel part called an um 89C196 I think
[18:16:03] <CanyonMan> it's an 80C196 variant
[18:16:11] <CanyonMan> and there is **NO SUPPORT** for that device **at all**
[18:16:15] <CanyonMan> intel says "sorry,r edesign it"
[18:16:22] <nevyn> awesome.
[18:16:25] <CanyonMan> so I asked intel can I emulate the instruction set in an fpga
[18:16:30] <CanyonMan> and they said they'd take legal action.
[18:16:34] <CanyonMan> to protect a deceased processor.
[18:16:36] <CanyonMan> Talk about a-holes.
[18:16:37] <nevyn> right of course they will
[18:16:46] <CanyonMan> So basically this customer is screwed
[18:16:48] <Tom_itx> edev is about arm as well
[18:16:58] <CanyonMan> i may do software emulation anyway
[18:17:02] <CanyonMan> i'm sure they'd sue me for that too
[18:17:06] <CanyonMan> but i won't tell them
[18:17:11] <CanyonMan> after all, it's not like they're google or something
[18:17:13] <grummund> nevyn: atmel do have intergrated rf + mcu
[18:17:24] <nevyn> oh?
[18:18:12] <grummund> nevyn: yep. but tbh you will always get better performance from separate ICs
[18:19:29] <Jan-> wtf is it called "libre office" now
[18:20:09] <mrfrenzy_> openoffice still exists, libre office is a free fork with better support for MS file formats
[18:20:42] <mrfrenzy_> (among other things)
[18:22:14] <Jan-> god I hate all this hacker shit :/
[18:23:43] <GeorgeJ> Oh, I've yet to get started with the actual ARM. I got an mBed to play with but I can't say I really enjoy it, gotta hack it and unlock it so that I can upload my own stuff.
[18:24:14] <GeorgeJ> I still don't yet know how you actually program an ARM, does it depend on the chip, or JTAG works on all of em?
[18:24:37] <Tom_itx> pretty sure jtag works on all of them
[18:24:53] <Tom_itx> it's a pretty common interface
[18:25:11] <Jan-> Joint Tactical Air Group?
[18:25:14] <Tom_itx> each with different mfg tweaks
[18:25:39] <nevyn> Jan-: ?
[18:26:04] <GeorgeJ> The mBed has an online compiler, it has a lot of driver library, you get a .bin and upload it to the device via USB(it's detected as a storage device). Push le button and vola.
[18:26:27] <Jan-> "voila"
[18:26:46] <GeorgeJ> typo.
[18:27:38] <Tom_itx> Jan-, http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Joint+Test+Action+Group
[18:28:36] <Jan-> apparently to make file sharing work between linux and windows, one of the things you have to type is "sudo cp /etc/sambe/smb.conf /etc/samba/smb.conf_Default"
[18:28:44] * Jan- loves how simple and straightforward linux is
[18:29:32] <GeorgeJ> Jan-: Easier under ubuntu.
[18:29:38] <GeorgeJ> Right click folder, share.
[18:29:40] <mrfrenzy_> Jan-: that would only be required on some strange dist which does not put a working config in automatically
[18:29:42] <Jan-> she's using ubuntu
[18:29:53] <mrfrenzy_> apt-get install samba then it works
[18:29:54] <Jan-> then you have to type lots of things into gedit
[18:30:00] <mrfrenzy_> no
[18:30:05] <Jan-> well yes.
[18:30:06] <mrfrenzy_> something has gone wrong then
[18:30:07] <Jan-> thats' what she's doing
[18:30:22] <mrfrenzy_> maybe she is reading some very old or badly written tutorial
[18:30:25] <Jan-> apparently you have to set the "netbios name" to the name of "your server", whatever "your server" means in that context
[18:30:54] <mrfrenzy_> yep, certainly a bad tutorial
[18:31:13] <Jan-> then you have to type [sharename] comment = sharename path = /mnt/disk read only = no guest ok = yes
[18:31:13] <mrfrenzy_> netbios name is just the same as hostname but for file sharing
[18:31:42] <Jan-> then you have to type "security = share"
[18:32:03] <mrfrenzy_> in a standard ubuntu install you don't need to edit any config files manually at all to get samba file sharing working
[18:32:10] <mrfrenzy_> stop reading tutorials and just go for the ubuntu docs
[18:32:22] <Jan-> then you have to type "sudo mkdir /myshare" and "sudo chmod 777 /myshare"
[18:32:40] <mrfrenzy_> you never type chmod 777 anything
[18:32:42] <Jan-> not to mention "sudo /etc/init.d/samba restart"
[18:33:07] * Jan- gets out her enormous megaphone and places it two metaphorical inches from the metaphorical ear of every linux developer ever, and screams
[18:33:15] <Jan-> HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THAT ONE DAY ANYONE MIGHT ACTUALLY USE THIS SHIT.
[18:34:22] <GeorgeJ> Jan-: It's the most widespread OS there is.
[18:34:29] <Jan-> It's still shit.
[18:34:47] <GeorgeJ> Nope. User error. Replace user.
[18:36:02] <mrfrenzy_> yes indeed user error, all the crap you are reading out Jan- is what had to be done ten years ago
[18:36:09] <Jan-> has it changed in ten years?
[18:36:29] <mrfrenzy_> yes, as we said, it's just as easy as with windows nowadays
[18:36:29] <Tom_itx> not being that linux savvy i kinda like ubuntu
[18:36:36] <Tom_itx> and use debian on my server
[18:36:41] <mrfrenzy_> you're reading a tutorial written by a twelve year old, or written ten years ago
[18:36:57] <Tom_itx> mrfrenzy_, alot of them never get updated though
[18:37:02] <Jan-> I have a friend who put linux on a netbook just before xmas and he still can't make it print
[18:37:08] <mrfrenzy_> that's why you should not read them
[18:37:24] <mrfrenzy_> does her printer say "supports linux" on the box?
[18:37:40] <Jan-> does ANY printer say that?
[18:37:43] <mrfrenzy_> yes
[18:38:07] <mrfrenzy_> unless you want to spend many hours battling your computer, stick with windows or buy linux compatible hardware
[18:38:32] <Jan-> you mean hardware designed fifteen years ago
[18:38:39] <GeorgeJ> Tbh, being a Linux and Window user for over 10 years, I'd prefer Linux anyway, except for gaming.
[18:38:47] <mrfrenzy_> no, just stay away from any cheap gdi printer
[18:38:50] <GeorgeJ> I like giving my OS commands and it listening.
[18:39:13] <mrfrenzy_> it's the $50-crap you can buy in the supermarket, they lack an internal cpu, instead all the logic is done in the windows driver
[18:39:24] <GeorgeJ> Scumbag Microsoft has deals with a lot of equipment manufacturers which prevent them from making Linux drivers.
[18:39:29] <mrfrenzy_> which is secret and closed source, so noone can make em work with other OSes
[18:39:46] <mrfrenzy_> GeorgeJ: no, it's just a matter of customers buying the cheap crap
[18:39:48] <Jan-> so just use windows
[18:39:52] <mrfrenzy_> Jan-: just get any postscript printer
[18:39:55] <Jan-> ]the cheap printer probably saves you the cost of printers :)
[18:39:57] <mrfrenzy_> and it will work with any os
[18:40:02] <Jan-> Errr postscript
[18:40:11] <GeorgeJ> Also, the coders who actually make drivers aren't usually on-par with linux' coding standards. That's why Windows has such a bad history.
[18:40:12] <Jan-> isn't that like
[18:40:14] <mrfrenzy_> no, the cheap printer has 3-5x more expensive supplies
[18:40:16] <Jan-> a 1980s thing
[18:40:26] <Jan-> oh of course, linux is also a 1980s thing :D
[18:40:30] <mrfrenzy_> any decent 2011-printer supports postscript
[18:41:05] <Jan-> right now this tutorial chick is talking about converting videos, which you do by typing "ffmpeg -i yourfilename.avi -vcodec wmv2 -sameq -acodec wmav2 -f asf outfile.asf"
[18:41:19] <Jan-> yay linux! yay commandline for EVERYTHING
[18:41:27] <Jan-> yay using lots of punctuatioN!
[18:41:44] <mrfrenzy_> and why are you still listening to the tutorial by this incompetent girl?
[18:42:01] <Jan-> because the horrendous awfulness of linux is hilarious
[18:42:18] <mrfrenzy_> the horrendous awfulness of linux ten years ago
[18:42:43] <mrfrenzy_> I'm going to watch one more episode of ice pilots now, then sleep
[18:42:48] <mrfrenzy_> good luck with the tutorials ;)
[18:44:21] <GeorgeJ> Actually, Linux is just the kernel. And believe me, it's quite awesome.
[18:44:36] <GeorgeJ> It's the myriad of software that probably confuses you.
[18:45:11] <GeorgeJ> Integration kind of sucks, but that's one of the thing that's being worked on by the major Linux-based distros.
[18:46:05] <timemage> Jan-, linux in the 80s huh?
[18:46:37] <GeorgeJ> Developing under Linux is WAY easier than under Windows tbh.
[18:50:32] <learningc> GeorgeJ: you have done embedded linux?
[18:53:15] <GeorgeJ> Can't say I have. I've studied it a bit, but I haven't implemented anything myself.
[18:53:47] <GeorgeJ> I develop for AVR's under linux though.
[18:53:52] <CanyonMan> does anyuboxy know if you can do broadcast / multicast with an xbee module
[18:54:04] <CanyonMan> i don't want to have a 'connectio'
[18:54:13] <CanyonMan> i want to broadcast specific packets to all nodes simultaneously
[18:54:47] <GeorgeJ> The manual should have info on that. I don't believe so though.
[18:55:07] <CanyonMan> yeah
[18:55:15] <CanyonMan> I guess what I really want is just a raw 802.15.4 radio
[18:55:26] <GeorgeJ> Implement your own!
[18:55:33] <CanyonMan> that might be what happens
[18:56:39] <nevyn> linux is not a 1980's thing
[18:56:56] <GeorgeJ> Put it on github and share it! I might be able to help once in a while.
[18:58:06] <GeorgeJ> I was interested in doing something simmilar with the XBees, but I think I'll just copy contiki's IPv6 module and just create a simple MAC layer with the Xbees. IPv6 is awesome!
[18:58:12] <CanyonMan> http://www.digi.com/support/kbase/kbaseresultdetl?id=2191
[18:58:15] <CanyonMan> maybe it does
[18:59:05] <CanyonMan> george are you familiar with the 6LoWPAN stuff
[18:59:28] <GeorgeJ> Yup.
[18:59:50] <GeorgeJ> Not in detail though.
[18:59:59] <CanyonMan> same.
[19:00:38] <GeorgeJ> Wanted to make a platform for smart devices with AVR's. But tbh it's to great of a task, and there wouldn't be many resources available left.
[19:00:48] <GeorgeJ> That's why I'm thinking of gign with ARM's.
[19:01:19] <GeorgeJ> I really really love IPv6. An address for each device. Accesable from anywhere, not more NAT-ing.
[19:01:38] <GeorgeJ> And it's even more lightweight tha IPv4.
[19:02:00] <CanyonMan> with things like batchpcb,
[19:02:05] <CanyonMan> it may very well be better to just make my own board.
[19:02:21] <GeorgeJ> Smart Objects not Smart Devices.
[19:02:47] <CanyonMan> it's lighter weight? really?
[19:03:03] <GeorgeJ> Whoa, by far!
[19:03:15] <CanyonMan> how does it compare to zigbee?
[19:03:34] * Valen would not have thaught v6 was lighter than v4
[19:03:48] <Valen> just with the address length requiring more space?
[19:04:05] <GeorgeJ> Well, I'm not that familliar with Zigbee's protocols, but afaik. Zigbee has p2p and mesh networking, right?
[19:04:09] <CanyonMan> Valen: well the one thing about ipv6 is that it has more ability to leave on/off options
[19:04:25] <CanyonMan> yes it does
[19:04:26] <GeorgeJ> The header is smaller for starters.
[19:04:33] <CanyonMan> I need to look into 6LoWPAN
[19:04:38] <CanyonMan> because that could be much more interesting
[19:05:23] <Valen> need more ipv6 in the world
[19:05:36] <Valen> providers need to be offering dual stacks already
[19:05:47] <GeorgeJ> Well, IPv6 has pretty much what IPv4 has, p2p, broadcast, multicast, etc. You've gotta create your own routing protocols, or use existing ones for meshing.
[19:05:48] <Valen> as it stands its kinda pointless
[19:06:14] <GeorgeJ> It also has neighbour discovery and a lot of awesome stuff.
[19:06:48] <GeorgeJ> IPv6 has quite a fast adoption rate tbh.
[19:07:06] <CanyonMan> EEE 802.15.4 devices may use either of IEEE 64 bit extended addresses or, after an association event, 16 bit addresses that are unique within a PAN. There is also a PAN-ID for a group of physically collocated IEEE802.15.4 devices.
[19:07:36] <Valen> my current isp offers it
[19:07:44] <Valen> but nobody else in this country does
[19:08:15] <CanyonMan> I'm not seeing this 6LoWPAN as being very complete at this point; I can't find specs on mesh routing yet
[19:08:17] <Valen> everything supports it, but no ISP's are running it so in terms of the end user, ipv6 is a non event
[19:09:35] <CanyonMan> reading http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-daniel-6lowpan-hilow-hierarchical-routing-01
[19:10:20] <GeorgeJ> CanyonMan: Yup. Take a look at Contiki, it's an OS that's ment to for low powered devices. It has a fully working IPv6 stacks, and it's been ported to AVR before afaik.
[19:11:06] <GeorgeJ> Valen: My ISP does. I'm currently in process of IPv6-izing my whole house-network so I can use the ISP's IPv6 stack aswell.
[19:12:10] <GeorgeJ> The American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) suggests that all Internet servers be prepared to serve IPv6-only clients by January 2012
[19:16:04] <CanyonMan> ok
[19:16:54] <GeorgeJ> "Contiki has a fully tested IPv6 stack that, combined with power-efficient radio mechanisms such as ContikiMAC, allow battery-operated devices to participate in IPv6 networking - even routers can run on batteries. Contiki supports 6lowpan header compression, IETF RPL IPv6 routing, and the IETF CoAP application layer protocol, among many other protocols and mechanisms."
[19:17:19] <CanyonMan> is it specifically 6LoWPAN though?
[19:17:53] <GeorgeJ> It supports 6LoWPANm but it's not limited to it.
[19:45:13] <CanyonMan> ok
[19:45:20] <CanyonMan> 6LoWPAN is interesting
[19:45:24] <CanyonMan> and the routing is really simple.
[19:45:26] <CanyonMan> I want to try it.
[20:22:48] <Kevin`> is there a free stack for 6lowpan?
[21:40:31] <raden> to run a lcd off a AVR in 8 bit mode does it matter what pins I use ? does it just need to be 1 port with 8 pins ?
[21:41:04] <Tom_itx> yeah
[21:41:07] <raden> ok
[21:41:10] <Tom_itx> why do you want to use 8bit?
[21:41:20] <raden> that seems most common way
[21:41:23] <raden> is there a better way ?
[21:41:24] <Tom_itx> lcd's are slow by nature
[21:41:32] <Tom_itx> nibble is just as good really
[21:41:36] <Tom_itx> 4 data lines
[21:41:53] <Tom_itx> takes 7 lines iirc
[21:42:09] <Tom_itx> 4 data ,rw, rs, e
[21:42:43] <Tom_itx> peter fleury's lib works pretty good
[21:45:05] <raden> ahhh
[21:45:11] <raden> everyone said 8 bit so much easier
[21:45:25] <Tom_itx> i don't think so
[21:45:26] <raden> im using a 324 so i have 32 I/0's so it not a issue really
[21:45:49] <Tom_itx> maybe if you're gonna write the code yourself but there's really no reason to since it's been written so many times already
[21:46:14] <raden> what u mean write the code ?
[21:46:35] <Tom_itx> the lcd control code
[21:46:37] <Roamin> also most libs allow you to choose between 4 and 8 bit
[21:46:39] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/serial_lcd_sch.png
[21:46:46] <Tom_itx> there's a pinout for 4bit mode
[21:48:38] <Tekno> would an SDCard need a MAX232 to interface directly with the isp on an avr?
[21:49:03] <Tom_itx> why?
[21:49:34] <Tom_itx> Tekno, explain your logic
[21:51:22] <Roamin> raden
[21:51:36] <Roamin> oops, i prefer this : http://winavr.scienceprog.com/example-avr-projects/avr-gcc-4-bit-and-8-bit-lcd-library.html over peter fleury's library for lcd
[21:52:08] <raden> tghanks
[21:53:36] * theBear sees no logic to explain
[21:53:52] <Tom_itx> :)
[21:54:04] <Roamin> heheh touché
[21:54:30] <Tekno> Thanks Tom
[21:58:53] <Tom_itx> not sure what you're after but the answer is no
[22:00:29] * theBear concurs
[22:02:49] <Tom_itx> also the SD card is 3.3v
[22:03:27] <Tom_itx> the max232 would boost the voltage
[22:03:55] <Tom_itx> what you want is a level translator of some sort. be it a voltage divider translator chip or mosfet configuration etc
[22:06:41] <theBear> for reference, it should be trivial to find 5 different schems of avr <> sdcard in webland for you to look at
[22:06:46] <Tekno> I read this wrong http://www.dharmanitech.com/2009/01/sd-card-interfacing-with-atmega8-fat32.html
[22:07:04] <theBear> there's one :)
[22:07:29] <Tekno> i thought they we're say you need the max232 to interface with sd over spi
[22:07:43] <Tom_itx> no
[22:07:50] <theBear> mmm... look at the schem, picture 5 of 13
[22:07:51] <Tom_itx> none i've ever seen
[22:08:28] <Tekno> yeah after you said negativity the first time I looked at that and then understood what you we're saying
[22:08:38] <theBear> avr running 3.3v, couple protection diodes and pullups and a decoupling cap, otherwise the sdcard connected directly to the micro
[22:09:19] <theBear> pretty much the ONLY thing a max232 is usefull for is translating ttl/digital kinda levels to rs232 levels, which are large and uncommon otherwise in the digital world
[22:10:18] <Tekno> they are just using for interfacing with terminal client
[22:10:29] <theBear> i like the way i said it better :)
[22:10:59] <Tekno> What ever makes you sleep at night ;)
[22:11:37] * Tom_itx concurs with theBear
[22:11:51] <theBear> heh, i don't sleep at night, but that's a completely different story :)
[22:12:02] <theBear> hehe
[22:12:13] <Tekno> plz don't die! <3
[22:12:38] <theBear> hmm... that's a good page
[22:12:52] <theBear> lol, it's ok, i can't die, i'm invincible... sad but true
[22:13:08] <Tom_itx> seems you've tried a few times
[22:13:16] <theBear> Tom_itx, indeed :(
[22:13:21] <Tekno> unless you have replaced all of your organs and limbs with robotic parts
[22:13:49] <theBear> pfft, next you'll be telling me theres no god or santa 'cos they've never been seen
[22:13:53] <Tom_itx> the human body will only tolerate so many polutants
[22:14:06] <theBear> Tom_itx, ya woulda thought so, but apparently mine isn't human
[22:14:12] <Tom_itx> hah
[22:14:43] <Tekno> dr crain from TMNT
[22:15:08] <theBear> krang maybe ?
[22:15:21] <Tekno> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xqU8aCV8ADc/TUaFZ9KvwII/AAAAAAAAA6Q/PtrYgA9EMS4/s1600/Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-Krang-Halloween-Costume-Coolest-Talking-Costume-Ever..jpg
[22:15:23] <Tekno> sure
[22:15:43] <Tekno> theres theBear talking to shredhead
[22:15:48] <theBear> hehehe, i forget how silly his boddle looked
[22:15:57] <theBear> err, body
[22:16:06] <theBear> all pinheaded and kinda surly yet confused
[22:16:23] <theBear> you know, i've heard more talk about the turtles this month than i had in the last 10 years !
[22:16:54] <Tekno> was there not supposed to be a movie of somekind coming
[22:18:11] <theBear> a new one ? i wouldn't know about that
[22:21:30] <Tekno> Nickelodeon plans to develop a new CGI-animated TMNT television series and will partner with fellow Viacom company Paramount Pictures to bring a new TMNT movie to theaters. Both are expected to debut in 2012.[6]
[22:23:04] <theBear> woah ! that's heavy, man
[22:35:22] <learningc> Tom_itx: how do you prepare the gerber file on eagle?
[22:36:16] <Tom_itx> learningc, what board house are you gonna use?
[22:36:28] <learningc> a local board house here
[22:36:33] <learningc> they ask for gerber
[22:36:38] <Tom_itx> yeah
[22:36:52] <learningc> but in eagle there are like 5 type of gerber
[22:37:33] <Tom_itx> well there are cam templates you either download or make yourself
[22:37:45] <Tom_itx> you will likely want RS274X
[22:38:02] <Tom_itx> there are 5 or 6 files you will need
[22:38:25] <learningc> so I go in cam processor, right?
[22:38:28] <Tom_itx> top copper, bottom copper, top mask, bottom mask, top silk, bottom silk and a drill file
[22:38:37] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:38:56] <Tom_itx> mine are likely posted on my website. i use several depending on where i'm sending it
[22:39:20] <learningc> do you have to create a gerber for each layer?
[22:39:42] <learningc> or when you create gerber, it creates all the files automatic?
[22:40:11] <Tom_itx> you pick what layers you want for each one
[22:40:22] <Tom_itx> but yes you create the ones i mentioned above
[22:40:29] <Tom_itx> unless you don't have them
[22:40:39] <Tom_itx> for example a bottom layer silk
[22:40:49] <Tom_itx> where there would be text only on the top layer
[22:41:01] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/eagle/
[22:41:20] <Tom_itx> there's a goldphoenix.cam there
[22:41:30] <Tom_itx> i may have modified that since
[22:42:01] <Tom_itx> i create a couple extra layers and combine all the top and bottom text, symbols etc and put them there
[22:42:08] <Tom_itx> layers 121 122
[22:42:30] <Tom_itx> also, make sure your drill etc layers are on before you generate the files
[22:43:07] <Tom_itx> as well as layers 29 & 30
[22:43:42] <Tom_itx> i leave 31 & 32 on as well
[22:43:51] <Tom_itx> in case i want to make a stencil for it
[22:44:06] <Tom_itx> 39..45 are all on
[22:44:22] <Tom_itx> 16..32 are all on
[22:44:39] <Tom_itx> 51 & 52
[22:44:51] <Tom_itx> and the normal ones
[22:44:58] <Tom_itx> top, bottom, pads etc
[22:45:16] <Tom_itx> 20 (dimension) will give them the board outline
[22:45:27] <Tom_itx> so if you want to define one put it on that layer
[22:45:38] <Tom_itx> with a zero width line
[22:46:21] <learningc> what gerber type do I choose? gerber, gerber_auto, etc?
[22:46:48] <Tom_itx> rs274x
[22:46:56] <learningc> ok
[22:47:13] <learningc> and what should be the filename extension?
[22:47:15] <Tom_itx> excellon for the drills
[22:48:19] <Tom_itx> .doc - documentation (outline) layer RS-274X format
[22:48:19] <Tom_itx> .cmp - top copper layer
[22:48:19] <Tom_itx> .sol - bottom copper layer
[22:48:19] <Tom_itx> .plc - top silk layer
[22:48:19] <Tom_itx> .pls - no bottom silk layer
[22:48:20] <Tom_itx> .stc - top solder mask
[22:48:20] <Tom_itx> .sts - bottom solder mask
[22:48:20] <Tom_itx> .drd - drill data
[22:48:25] <Tom_itx> is what i use
[22:49:47] <learningc> I have to give each filename those extensions? or will the board house not need any extension?
[22:50:00] <Tom_itx> read their requirements
[22:50:08] <Tom_itx> it varies from one place to another
[22:50:15] <learningc> ah I see
[22:50:28] <Tom_itx> but those have been accpted wherever i've sent them
[22:50:36] <learningc> but all these files have to be save in "gerber" right?
[22:50:59] <Tom_itx> it just writes those files out when you run the cam job
[22:51:13] <Tom_itx> you can view them with a gerber viewer which i highly recomend
[22:51:21] <Tom_itx> so you see exactly what you're getting
[22:51:33] <learningc> which gerber viewer do you use?
[22:51:39] <Tom_itx> gcpreview
[22:53:05] <Tom_itx> i just uploaded several .cam files you can look at
[22:53:16] <Tom_itx> keep in mind i use layers 121 122 on mine for the text
[22:54:02] <Tom_itx> i think i have used them all at one point or another
[22:55:01] <Tom_itx> gnite
[22:55:08] <learningc> for the drill data, do I have to add a "drill" on the through-hole pads or they will know it?
[22:55:18] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:55:24] <learningc> ok good night
[22:55:28] <Tom_itx> and if the default isn't what you want, specify one
[22:55:34] <Tom_itx> i use smaller ones for vias
[22:55:42] <Tom_itx> but stay within the board MFG specs
[22:55:49] <learningc> ok
[22:56:00] <learningc> thanks
[22:56:07] <Tom_itx> i also use round vias
[22:56:32] <Tom_itx> i think square is the default in eagle which is silly
[22:57:53] <nevyn> really? that's rediculous
[23:28:14] <rue_mohr> pff everyone know triangular vias are best
[23:29:03] <rue_mohr> their just not used often cause triangular drill bits are expensive
[23:33:20] <Tom_itx> teardrop are best for wire ends
[23:33:26] <rue_mohr> Tom_itx, did you do canbus stuff?
[23:33:49] <Tom_itx> no
[23:34:07] <Tom_itx> the dude in sweeden did though..
[23:34:38] <Tom_itx> umm.. anonimasu
[23:35:10] <rue_mohr> did you ever find a use for a tiny10?
[23:35:21] <Tom_itx> sure
[23:35:28] <Tom_itx> it blinks leds quite well
[23:35:34] <rue_mohr> hah
[23:35:40] <Tom_itx> and does adc pwm control
[23:35:50] <rue_mohr> a yea
[23:36:02] <Tom_itx> one dude made it play a sound file
[23:36:10] <Tom_itx> siren
[23:36:18] <rue_mohr> heh
[23:36:38] <Tom_itx> it should have a contest like the 555 did
[23:36:40] <rue_mohr> asm only right?
[23:36:46] <Tom_itx> i believe so yes
[23:37:33] <learningc> Tom_itx: how do I do the solder mask?
[23:37:35] <Tom_itx> inflex is using them on stuff
[23:37:48] <Tom_itx> learningc, it's pretty automatic
[23:37:55] <Tom_itx> just make sure you output the file
[23:37:57] <learningc> auto,atic?
[23:38:05] <Tom_itx> iirc they are layers 31 32
[23:38:11] <rue_mohr> 0.87
[23:38:14] <rue_mohr> $
[23:38:16] <Tom_itx> or 29 30
[23:38:38] <Tom_itx> tstop?
[23:38:41] <Tom_itx> bstop
[23:39:05] <Tom_itx> yeah...
[23:39:16] <learningc> do I have to create solder mask in the library file of the parts?
[23:39:32] <Tom_itx> you can modify it but it's there automatically
[23:39:47] <Tom_itx> at least i think you can modify it
[23:39:56] <Tom_itx> it may be part of the global settings
[23:40:33] <learningc> I created a part with pads, defined names for them, but never added any king of solder mask
[23:40:42] <learningc> kind
[23:40:49] <Tom_itx> see if it's on those layers
[23:40:52] <Tom_itx> i bet it is
[23:40:59] <Tom_itx> and now i sleep
[23:41:07] <learningc> ok good night