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[00:00:06] <Casper> jadew: breadboard?
[00:00:31] <bronson_> jadew: what scope is that?
[00:01:41] <ziph> jadew: That spike looks ESDish.
[00:02:19] <Kevin`> jadew: what kind of adc are you using that you would set the cutoff for 1mhz?
[00:03:04] <jadew> sorry for the late reply, went to heat up some food
[00:03:08] <Kevin`> jadew: oh, and what value voltage divider, the adc on an avr chip needs to draw some power from the pin. fairly small, but a high value voltage divider will get you screwey readings unless you use a buffer
[00:03:16] <jadew> Casper, yeah, it's all wires and stuff
[00:03:26] <jadew> bronson_, rigol ds1052
[00:03:28] <Casper> no wonder you have such nooise
[00:03:33] <jadew> ziph, what's ESD?
[00:03:45] <ziph> Static discharge.
[00:03:47] <Casper> breadboard are the worse thing ever
[00:03:51] <ziph> But if it is regular it probably isn't. :)
[00:04:10] <Casper> as for how to reduce it, add a ceramic capacitor right across the power pins on the avr
[00:04:12] <jadew> Kevin`, good point, should set the cut off lower
[00:04:13] <Casper> might help ALOT
[00:04:26] <inflex> indeed, you should always have a close-to-chip decoupler
[00:04:28] <ziph> A higher order filter might help too.
[00:04:42] <jadew> Casper, already have that
[00:04:51] <ziph> What's the interval between pulses?
[00:04:57] <Casper> remember, the breadboard is really shitty... lots of resistance, capacitance, inductance crosstalk and all
[00:05:31] <jadew> ziph, didn't get a frequency reading on that
[00:05:49] <ziph> jadew: If you were triggering on it you can turn on the frequency counter to see.
[00:06:15] <ziph> Utility Button->Counter on a Rigol IIRC.
[00:06:24] <bronson_> Casper: not to mention random oxidization and weak contacts
[00:07:07] <jadew> ziph, 2.4 khz
[00:07:08] <bronson_> breadboards are horrible, almost always takes less time to solder together a quick perfboard & debug that
[00:07:32] <ziph> jadew: And that's fairly stable? The count isn't jumping around?
[00:07:43] <jadew> ziph, yep
[00:07:55] <ziph> Mmmm, interesting frequency.
[00:08:10] <ziph> Got anything running at that or some multiple of it?
[00:08:15] <Kevin`> I got very very good results with an avr adc on a breadboard here, but I was using both a lowpass filter and a digital filter, because the desired signal was rather low frequency
[00:09:04] <jadew> ziph, I think it might be from the serial comunication with the other avr, probably the time when it sends some data or something
[00:09:11] <jadew> but I would like to get rid of that too
[00:09:23] <ziph> jadew: Disable that communications and see if it goes away.
[00:09:30] <ziph> jadew: If it does you'll know exactly what to fix.
[00:10:18] <ziph> jadew: It might also be something in your environment, check that the signal isn't there when the CRO tip is touching its ground and when the CRO it is touching its own ground plus your circuit ground.
[00:10:59] <ziph> (The second one probably isn't as important if your circuit is battery powered)
[00:11:01] <jadew> interresting
[00:11:15] <jadew> I get it when it's touching its ground + the circuit ground
[00:12:09] <jadew> interresting, as I move the LCD away from the probe it drops in amplitude
[00:13:02] <ziph> It isn't there with just the probe touching its ground placed near the circuit?
[00:13:27] <jadew> nope
[00:16:25] <jadew> removed the LCD, still there
[00:16:41] <ziph> Tried disabling the comms?
[00:16:43] <jadew> should I expect it to go away if I put this circuit on a real pcb?
[00:16:58] <jadew> no, hold on
[00:17:03] <ziph> Yes, as long as the real PCB has a good uninterrupted ground plane.
[00:18:23] <ziph> You also want to try to get your IO all coming off the board at the same point and with a solid ground plane connecting all IO lines, although that's more to prevent emission of the common mode noise.
[00:20:34] <jadew> interresting, disabled the communications and the spike is still there, but way smaller
[00:32:24] <jadewtbl> Just made the calculation again and my filter is for anything above 1khz
[02:39:44] <Roklobsta_> bronson: my next circuit i will try the laser toner onto pcb with a ferric chrolide sponge trick. i think it'd should work ok.
[02:39:56] <Roklobsta_> i HATE vero and breadboard.
[02:40:00] <Roklobsta_> HATE HATE HATE
[02:40:20] <Roklobsta_> give me a big fat power and ground plane any day
[02:55:31] <Roklobsta_> on FR4 PCB.
[02:55:47] <ziph> You don't like Rogers?
[03:04:07] <mevon> is this the official avr freaks channel?
[03:19:41] <ziph> Not really, it's more of an Australian channel.
[03:24:31] <inflex> and occasionally we talk about Kylie Minogue
[03:28:04] <mevon> kk
[05:00:25] <OndraSter> mornin
[05:47:50] <OndraSter> so, I yesterday (well, today midnight) sent question about that box, what is the size of which part
[05:48:02] <OndraSter> well, they sent me full 8 pages long technical drawing lol
[05:48:17] <OndraSter> right in the mornin
[05:48:25] <OndraSter> I like that company
[06:07:56] <Roklobsta_> here's a nice avr project
http://www.lll.lu/~edward/edward/adsb/VerySimpleADSBreceiver.html
[06:30:56] <Tom_itx> OndraSter where are you?
[06:32:39] <Tom_itx> http://www.hammondmfg.com/
[06:32:41] <Tom_itx> http://www.polycase.com/
[06:32:54] <OndraSter> here
[06:33:03] <ziph> You can get Hammond anywhere in the world as far as I can tell.
[06:33:39] <Tom_itx> they sent me several free samples when i was working on a project
[06:33:49] <ziph> Nifty.
[06:33:52] <OndraSter> yay
[06:33:57] <OndraSter> I need something like 22x22cm :)
[06:35:02] <Tom_itx> http://www.hammondmfg.com/dwg9.htm
[06:35:18] <OndraSter> thanks
[06:35:35] <ziph> Tom_itx: Know any places that could do 3.9" x 2.2" panels (punched/drilled/cut and some kind of finishing) and would be likely to want to Fedex them overseas?
[06:36:12] <Tom_itx> http://www.toolless.com/
[06:36:47] <Tom_itx> other than that no
[06:37:25] <ziph> Hmm, that place looks neat.
[06:38:26] <ziph> To have 50 or so 0.05" thick Alu panels done here (anodized and powder coated) it's about $1400 AUD and three weeks.
[06:38:55] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure where you'd get laser etched pannels done
[06:39:17] <ziph> I presume they'd do these with standard sheet metal punches.
[06:39:24] <Tom_itx> ask Jymmmmmmmm
[06:39:30] <Tom_itx> you know the guy :)
[06:39:54] <Tom_itx> just depends
[06:42:29] <Tom_itx> http://www.bigbluesaw.com/saw/?_oskwdid=9886147&_engineadid=7758453264
[06:43:42] <Tom_itx> http://www.dukheung.co.kr/english/mold-making-facilities-e.html
[06:45:31] <Tom_itx> http://www.okwenclosures.com/enclosures/instrument_enclosures.htm
[06:46:57] <Tom_itx> http://www.shortrunpro.com/instrument_covers_and_enclosures_s_vhv74ytw_vhv1ytw_vhv1ytw.aspx
[06:48:46] <Tom_itx> http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/products/showcase/instrument-panels/
[06:49:13] <Tom_itx> cock pit intsrument pannel for $254
[06:50:19] <ziph> Yeah, I've seen those.
[06:50:29] <ziph> I should get a quote for a two piece sheet metal enclosure.
[06:50:47] <ziph> It might be cheaper than the Hammond extrusion + front and back panel.
[06:51:19] <Tom_itx> http://electronics-enclosures.com/
[06:52:18] <ziph> I've spent about 30 hours going through enclosures for this project. :)
[06:53:08] <Tom_itx> well you know what i did. got the hammond enclosure, machined and silk screened it myself
[06:53:52] <ziph> Yeap.
[06:54:24] <ziph> If I had a small CNC to do it I would, and then just have good stickers made. The enclosures come with the plates already anodized.
[06:54:59] <Tom_itx> ask inflex where he got his
[06:55:10] <ziph> His stickers?
[06:55:15] <Tom_itx> i think so
[06:55:19] <Tom_itx> and enclosures
[06:55:37] <ziph> I'd probably get them done in the states, we have a "Screw you we're Australian" tax on stuff like that.
[06:55:42] <Tom_itx> not really stickers, rather plastic stick ons
[06:56:16] <ziph> Yeah, by sticker I mean something similar to Lexan.
[07:26:04] <inflex> mine were local
[07:26:18] <inflex> you can get anoided Al milledout though from the US for about $40/panel
[07:50:48] <ziph> inflex: What what quiantity?
[08:48:36] <WormFood> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2097748 New hard drive technology is hundreds of times faster - and will allow drives to record terabytes of data every second <-- I thought out of everyone that I share this with, you guys would probably appreciate this the most.
[08:55:09] <ureif> avrs are maxing out hard drive bandwidth ?
[09:16:59] <timemage> "The technology uses ultra-short heat pulses to change the magnetism of material in the drive, allowing for far faster drives." <- i'm glad they explained that. =)
[09:21:12] <vectory> argh, seit wann heißt es "der filter"?
[09:21:34] <vectory> s/der/das/
[09:22:15] <vectory> das ist so falsch, mein unterbewusstsein weigert sich, es zu schreiben
[09:22:21] <vectory> k, back to english
[09:22:44] <ElMonkey> heh, who writes it like that?
[09:23:51] <vectory> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitales_Filter
[09:24:47] <ElMonkey> yikes
[09:26:01] <ElMonkey> who comes up with this stuff
[09:40:21] <vectory> same people who did much of my homework :)
[11:06:40] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, I have a fix
[11:27:43] <OndraSter> btw
[11:27:51] <OndraSter> that arduino mega 2560
[11:27:54] <OndraSter> was sold for $34
[11:27:56] <OndraSter> lol
[11:28:06] <OndraSter> well no wonder, if the atmega itself is like $20
[11:28:24] <OndraSter> abcminiuser, y u don't want to sell megas!
[11:28:42] <abcminiuser> OndraSter, youwah? They can't be that expensive
[11:28:50] <OndraSter> farnell
[11:29:27] <OndraSter> http://uk.farnell.com/atmel/atmega2560-16au/8bit-mcu-256k-flash-5v-smd-2560/dp/1288330
[11:48:46] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser
[11:48:54] <Tom_itx> i have a report for you
[11:50:34] <CapnKernel> !seen edboogie2011
[11:50:47] <CapnKernel> No tobbor?
[11:50:54] <Tom_itx> no
[11:50:59] <CapnKernel> :-(
[11:51:11] <CapnKernel> He was my only friend! <sob>
[11:51:57] <Tom_L> abcminiuser_
[11:52:13] <abcminiuser_> Heyhey
[12:21:09] <abcminiuser> ferdna, since you apparently can't do PMs
[12:21:20] <abcminiuser> I know CapnKernel / Mitch personally, he's a decent guy
[12:21:27] <abcminiuser> (Not great, not awful ;) )
[12:24:41] <CapnKernel> abcminiuser: You'll keep :-)
[12:24:57] <amee2k> hrm
[12:25:11] <amee2k> in entirely unrelated news, i just cleaned up almost 25 gigs of downloaded youtube videos 0.0
[12:25:31] <amee2k> if i watch 2 yt videos a week it was much, how did i manage to collect this much useless crap
[12:30:00] * RikusW have almost 1TB of video files =-O
[12:30:16] * jadew has that much porn
[12:30:55] <jadew> j/k, I erased it when I moved in with my g/f
[12:31:35] <RikusW> what isn't there cannot be found ;)
[12:32:13] <amee2k> i used to have that much porn when 25G porn was still considered huge :P
[12:32:21] <bronson_> or find a girlfriend that finds that an asset
[12:32:44] <amee2k> i still have like 30G videos left but most are educational or in some other way interresting
[12:32:48] <amee2k> i only removed the junk ones
[12:32:58] <jadew> bronson_, we tried it, but she said she gets annoyed by the other chick's moaning
[12:33:19] <amee2k> turn off the volume? :P
[12:33:36] <jadew> gonna try it again! :D
[12:33:48] <dirty_d> lol
[12:34:07] <nofxx> that's nothing wrong in collecting porn, its just a hobby collection like any other else
[12:34:15] <nofxx> even if you friends think 1.5tb is too much
[12:34:33] <dirty_d> http://cisweb.bristolcc.edu/~klabs/xmega.jpg
[12:34:34] <mrfrenzy_> lol amee2k "educational"
[12:34:38] <dirty_d> didnt come out that bad i guess?
[12:35:01] <dirty_d> i dunno wtf happened with the solder mask there
[12:35:01] <amee2k> mrfrenzy_: by that, i don't mean "5th grade biology" kind of educational :P
[12:35:20] <nofxx> bad ink
[12:35:34] <amee2k> dirty_d: nice work :)
[12:35:37] <amee2k> phototransfer?
[12:35:39] <dirty_d> yea
[12:35:58] <nofxx> dirty_d, hot iron way?
[12:36:02] <jadew> where did you get solder mask?
[12:36:02] <amee2k> both solder stop and the etching mask?
[12:36:08] <jadew> I want some of that too
[12:36:24] <dirty_d> for the solder mask you blob on this green crap, then put the back side of packing tape over it with the artwork on the sticky side
[12:36:38] <dirty_d> it a real pain in the ass
[12:37:03] <amee2k> only thing that looks a bit shit is the cutting job on the edges :P
[12:37:04] <dirty_d> you have to get it lined up by puting a really bright light behind it, then move it by accident and repeat 50 times
[12:37:20] <dirty_d> lol yea freehand dremel cutoff wheel
[12:37:31] <nofxx> I was trying Rosin for that ... it works nice
[12:37:41] <amee2k> i use a sharp cutter blade to cut a "V" shaped groove
[12:37:47] <amee2k> then snap over the edge of the table
[12:37:51] <dirty_d> rosin? isnt it sticky
[12:37:56] <amee2k> like you would cut a plane of glass
[12:37:59] <CapnKernel> dirty_d: I like the soldering - classic shape!
[12:38:07] <nofxx> dirty_d, yes! hehe but dry out fast
[12:38:19] <dirty_d> ahh
[12:38:20] <nofxx> dirty_d, kinda... give it an hour... in alcoohol solution
[12:38:29] <CapnKernel> night all
[12:38:32] <dirty_d> later
[12:38:40] <nofxx> but too much trouble... now I just use hot glue all around
[12:38:40] <amee2k> cut at right angle along a steel ruler, then tilt the blade ~30° off axis in either direction and run along the cut a few more times
[12:39:12] <amee2k> just make sure to pull it away when breaking the board or it can easily snap in funny way
[12:39:15] <amee2k> dunno why that is
[12:39:23] <dirty_d> it was only like a little bigger than that though before
[12:39:41] <dirty_d> i like it bigger than i need so i dont have to line up the artwork with anything
[12:40:31] <amee2k> i need to grow a pair of balls and try my own phototransfer :X
[12:40:33] <dirty_d> i found out if you have a few day old solution the the hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide, it strips the photoresist instead of the copper
[12:40:43] <nofxx> dirty_d, good about rosin is that it melts and help soldering
[12:40:44] <dirty_d> amee2k, its easy, easier than the toner deal
[12:41:21] <nofxx> but anyway, I prefer to glue it all up. Reminds Fringe's ambar stuff hahah
[12:41:22] <dirty_d> amee2k, all you really need is some lye and a blacklight
[12:41:35] <dirty_d> i got 2 pounds of lye from dudadiesel.com for $5
[12:41:39] <dirty_d> thats enough for a lifetime
[12:41:43] <mevon> anyone knows how to specify a .arch when doing asm with avr-gcc?
[12:41:50] <amee2k> dirty_d: i've got an HP printer and their toner is apparently known for not transfering properly. i tried for like a week. i don't want to throw away a half full cartridge but at my rate it'll be ages until i've used it up
[12:41:51] <dirty_d> -march ?
[12:42:06] <mevon> architecture core
[12:42:19] <dirty_d> -mcpu
[12:42:21] <dirty_d> i think
[12:42:26] <mevon> I would like tu use the avr51 instead of avr25
[12:42:38] <dirty_d> amee2k, have you tried printing to tracing paper?
[12:42:45] <dirty_d> thats what i use
[12:42:51] <mevon> dirty_d, its -mmcu=
[12:42:57] <nofxx> amee2k, ah, inkjet won't do it.. need great deal of luck to find a water resistant ink
[12:42:58] <mevon> but from avr-gcc
[12:43:00] <dirty_d> oh ok, i dunno about that
[12:43:03] <mevon> for inline purppose
[12:43:06] <dirty_d> i just use -mmcu
[12:43:10] <amee2k> dirty_d: i tried like two dozen different papers
[12:43:15] <mevon> I complile with avr gcc
[12:43:21] <dirty_d> amee2k, you mea nfor toner transfer?
[12:43:22] <nofxx> amee2k, it's the ones that can write on CD's ? those you can hack ! print directly
[12:43:32] <dirty_d> mevon, what chip is it?
[12:43:35] <amee2k> and all heat settings on the iron from doesn't do anything up to hot enough to pop the copper plating off the board
[12:43:53] <dirty_d> ameek you wont have those problems with the phototransfer
[12:44:00] <mevon> I use the same mmcu as you but when asm is compile INLINE the same mmcu CAN be used but the core is selected by default
[12:44:01] <amee2k> i know
[12:44:25] <amee2k> dirty_d: i've got an old scanner and some UV tubes for an exposure box. i already got etchant that i use sharpie style. i also have some old photostock but i'm not sure if its still good. it is 2+ years old at least, but was kept dark and dry and in the original bag
[12:44:44] <dirty_d> try it out
[12:45:04] <amee2k> and some baggies that say developer on the label and have some white stuff that looks like cocaine lol
[12:46:03] <amee2k> i tried printing on transparencies last summer but my printer's contrast sucked pretty badly and i had no idea how much developer i needed
[12:46:24] <amee2k> i want to try again with paper next time
[12:46:36] <amee2k> also, gotta run shopping now before shops close. bb in 30
[12:46:57] <dirty_d> mevon, not sure
[12:47:24] <amee2k> nofxx: i've considered the inkjet mod before, but couldn't find a suitable printer in the trash yet
[12:47:41] <dirty_d> ive never tried transparancies, one look at the price tag and i got the tracing paper
[12:47:43] <dirty_d> and it works fine
[12:47:46] <RikusW> amee2k: like 7g NaOH / 1l of water
[12:48:01] <dirty_d> i use 1/2 teaspoon/300ml
[12:48:18] <dirty_d> and that makes me 7/25 hogsheads of pcbs
[12:48:26] * RikusW will try ordinary paper + cooking oil instead of transparencies
[12:48:39] <dirty_d> RikusW, lol
[12:48:43] <RikusW> as bonus the oil sucks the paper onto the copper
[12:49:18] * RikusW Phototransferred the printer test page onto a pcb
[12:49:28] <RikusW> 10 min in the sun seemed to work
[12:49:41] <dirty_d> tracing paper is like totally transparent to UV
[12:49:45] <RikusW> the part with the Q20 oil developed much better
[12:49:54] <dirty_d> might be better than the transparencies
[12:50:07] <RikusW> not sure if its safe to put my tracing paper into the printer... ?
[12:50:21] <dirty_d> sure it is, i tape it to a regular piece of paper
[12:50:47] <RikusW> I guess I'll wash off the oil and develop as normal...
[12:50:49] <dirty_d> and reuse the same peice
[12:50:51] <dirty_d> go green
[12:50:52] <dirty_d> lol
[12:50:55] * RikusW still have to try that
[12:51:16] <RikusW> oily paper become quite transparent
[12:51:32] <RikusW> anyone ever tried that before ? ;)
[12:51:35] <nofxx> those are really nice tips, I'll try photo again
[12:52:22] <RikusW> the Q20 is too expensive hence using cooking oil...
[12:52:27] <OndraSter> dirty_d, I bought some heavy duty (so it doesn't torn into pieces in printer) tracing paper
[12:52:27] <OndraSter> nope
[12:52:31] <OndraSter> not translucent at all
[12:52:36] <nofxx> some good wattage lamp will do it too, right, not necessary UV per se
[12:52:52] <OndraSter> I have mercury vapour lamp
[12:52:54] <OndraSter> 125W
[12:52:59] <OndraSter> with the bulb, so it takes about 15 minutes
[12:53:02] <OndraSter> with transparent paper
[12:53:17] <nofxx> OndraSter, yea, was thinking a MH I got here... 400w
[12:54:05] <OndraSter> http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/283344_1819321328365_1400123387_31485167_772923_n.jpg
[12:54:08] <OndraSter> this is my "UV BOX"
[12:54:17] <nofxx> those lamps do emit UV, the glass is what filters it
[12:54:21] <OndraSter> yes
[12:54:25] <OndraSter> that's why it is 15 minutes
[12:54:29] <OndraSter> and not 15 seconds :D
[12:54:34] <dirty_d> i use a 40W flour and i do 15 min
[12:55:02] <OndraSter> why I kept the glass:
[12:55:06] <OndraSter> http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/271065_1819321208362_1400123387_31485166_4365896_n.jpg
[12:55:09] <OndraSter> first try there
[12:55:21] <dirty_d> i bought a uv bug zapper bulb and soldered an extension cord to it, lol
[12:55:29] <OndraSter> lol
[12:55:41] <OndraSter> I want to go to toner transfer method someday
[12:55:46] <OndraSter> get old laminator
[12:55:57] <dirty_d> photo is way better though?
[12:56:06] <OndraSter> you need photosensitive boards
[12:56:09] <OndraSter> or make them photosensitive
[12:56:16] <OndraSter> regular copper only boards are like 1/5th of a price
[12:56:29] <dirty_d> the chemical is expensive but it will last like forever
[12:56:43] <nofxx> I did a lot of hot transfer, problem is that you dont have consistency... one board is so incredible you tear a drop, others do again
[12:56:43] <OndraSter> plus you don't need two chemicals, only one
[12:56:46] <dirty_d> you just gotta get it on there right
[12:56:48] <nofxx> bigger the worst
[12:57:06] <dirty_d> yea
[12:57:41] <RikusW> dirty_d: I have spray on photoresist but seems there is an expiry date :(
[12:57:44] <RikusW> what do you use ?
[12:58:01] <dirty_d> i used premade boards from digikey
[12:58:04] <dirty_d> the injectorall ones
[12:58:07] <RikusW> do you mix it yourself ?
[12:58:10] <OndraSter> plus you can't do easily both sides (to be perfectly aligned) to fit vias etc
[12:58:10] <RikusW> ah
[12:58:40] <OndraSter> iteadstudio's prices are quite good
[12:59:10] <OndraSter> if you could do 5 pieces instead 10 for like 3/4 of the price, that would be the win
[12:59:22] <nofxx> I can't even find photoresistive boards to buy... any china store OndraSter ?
[12:59:52] * RikusW won't attempt double sided just yet...
[13:00:24] <dirty_d> its easy with photo, you just glue the edge of the two trancparencies together lined up
[13:00:31] <dirty_d> and make a pcb sandwhich
[13:00:39] <dirty_d> ive never done it though
[13:00:41] <nofxx> OndraSter, if you need 5 pieces better send it to china! hehe multilayer, silk and mask solder
[13:01:22] <nofxx> seeedstudio, futurlec offer PCB service, its really cheap... I'm finishing one to try
[13:02:04] <nofxx> dirty_d, impossible with hot iron =/ heh I did a double face once, doing one side with the hand heh
[13:02:12] <nofxx> worked nice, just a few jumpers anyway
[13:10:24] <dirty_d> i need to start getting some of the hardware for this quadcopter
[13:13:24] <dirty_d> maybe i can make some money off this
[13:13:34] <mevon> I wish I could talk to the avr-gcc guys
[13:13:34] <dirty_d> what would someone pay for a quadcopter that can lift 20 pounds?
[13:14:19] <dirty_d> mevon, im confused by your problem, when you use inline asm your compile fails?
[13:16:27] <mevon> well attiny85 has a "High Performance, Low Power AVR® 8-Bit Microcontroller Advanced RISC Architecture – 120 Powerful Instructions" from the atmel pdf
[13:16:54] <dirty_d> yea
[13:18:08] <mevon> but avr-gcc cripples the t85 sooo much, it cant even multiply (use the MUL code)
[13:19:08] <dirty_d> oh, so you want it to use the same device but different core, so all the register addresses and crap are correct?
[13:21:42] <Jan-> hihi :)
[13:22:29] <mevon> dirty_d well Iwas hoping the MUL instruction was available but in the atmel pdf inst set resume seems MUL is not there that is silly
[13:22:29] * RikusW plays hide and seek ;)
[13:22:44] <OndraSter> nofxx, photosensitive boards are sold here on regular basis
[13:22:48] <OndraSter> but they are not that cheap :P
[13:22:53] <OndraSter> like $5 for 100x160
[13:22:55] <dirty_d> mevon, is the attiny85 old?
[13:22:55] * Jan- is not very good at hide and seek
[13:23:02] <OndraSter> where 100x160 copper only is like $1
[13:23:06] <OndraSter> (100x160 is in mm
[13:23:55] <RikusW> Jan-: thought it would be too easy ;)
[13:24:58] <Jan-> RikusW: look up "goalball", a game designed to give people who are both blind AND stupid something to do
[13:26:07] <amee2k> OndraSter: how big is that mercury lamp btw?
[13:26:11] <OndraSter> big?
[13:26:12] <OndraSter> hmm
[13:26:16] <OndraSter> a lot
[13:26:39] <amee2k> OndraSter: i got an old flatbed scanner case that i modded with UV tubes
[13:27:02] <OndraSter> that wouldn't fit
[13:27:08] <OndraSter> I have here flatbed scanner filled with UV LEDs
[13:27:12] <OndraSter> 2cm between each
[13:27:14] <OndraSter> it is too far apart :(
[13:27:36] <amee2k> i got four 7W UV tubes from one of these nail pain curing machines
[13:27:53] <amee2k> buying one of these and gutting it was cheaper than buying separate tubes and ballast coils
[13:28:03] <amee2k> by a factor of two or so
[13:28:11] <OndraSter> hmm
[13:28:39] <amee2k> nail paint* lol
[13:28:49] <Jan-> OK. I have before me one PC, with AVR Studio installed. One variable bench power supply, 5V capable. One experimenter's breadboard, plus wire links. One usbtiny mark 2 programmer. A selection of capacitors and crystals. One atmega168-20PU.
[13:28:52] <Jan-> What else do I need
[13:29:02] <Jan-> oh yes and a mark one Phil
[13:29:10] <Jan-> although he's almost worn out, I need a new one
[13:29:13] * Jan- peruses ebay
[13:29:18] <amee2k> the tubes are fairly generic UV-A type tubes like disco lights
[13:29:36] <OndraSter> DAMN
[13:29:37] <OndraSter> http://www.gme.cz/_dokumentace/dokumenty/622/622-415/pctdetail.622-415.1.jpg
[13:29:38] <OndraSter> this box
[13:29:41] <OndraSter> would be perfect
[13:29:45] <OndraSter> but it is 1cm shorter on each side
[13:29:48] <OndraSter> and there is no bigger version
[13:30:00] <OndraSter> checked the hammond and polycase
[13:30:10] <OndraSter> there are some, but not from plastic material and cheap
[13:30:12] <amee2k> the scanner was for free since it was from the trash :P
[13:30:18] <Jan-> do we need to use anti-static wrist straps here
[13:30:19] <OndraSter> amee2k, hehe I paid 1 CZK for it lol
[13:30:21] <amee2k> some old huge HP scanner
[13:30:28] <amee2k> nice :)
[13:30:29] <OndraSter> that was some "scanny something" lol
[13:30:38] <OndraSter> 25 CZK = 1 EUR :D
[13:30:55] <OndraSter> wondering if I would add more LEDs, if it would be usable
[13:31:10] <amee2k> Jan-: some resistors and LEDs would be neat too. i also find a fixed-voltage supply for 5V is handy too
[13:31:28] <Jan-> amee2k: I guess we could splice into the PC.
[13:31:35] <Jan-> And other basic stuff sure we have it
[13:31:36] <amee2k> no accidentially changing the voltage and popping the MCU and no need to keep it adjusted
[13:31:59] * Jan- feels a bit nervous about plugging a breadboard into her PC
[13:32:00] <amee2k> get some old wall warts and cut off the connectors. then solder a 1x2 header on so it fits on the breadboard
[13:32:03] * Jan- is worried the PC might get hurt
[13:32:07] <amee2k> 90% of the wall warts out there are 5V or 12V
[13:32:36] <amee2k> if you have an old PC PSU around, you can mod it for stand-alone use. you don't even need to open the case for it
[13:33:42] * Jan- likes the idea of the current trip on the bench power supply
[13:33:48] * Jan- will stick with that for now thanks
[13:35:04] <amee2k> most generic lab PSUs will go into current limiting when overloaded. that is not always practical since it will keep current flowing into a fault
[13:35:37] <amee2k> the ghetto ATX needs a more severe fault to trip, but it'll just shut down on overload and cut power to the circuit completely
[13:36:32] <Casper> or catch fire
[13:36:50] <amee2k> nah, the cheap ones don't have enough power for that
[13:36:58] <Jan-> bear with us
[13:37:03] <amee2k> and testing the overload shutdown is easy enough :P
[13:37:03] <Casper> do not assume that all ATX have overcurrent protection
[13:37:07] <Jan-> the man I'm working with is one of those people who MUST use red and black for the power wires :/
[13:37:13] <OndraSter> so do I
[13:37:15] * Jan- taps her foot
[13:37:26] <OndraSter> at school we have black for power and green for ground
[13:37:29] <OndraSter> it drives me crazy :D
[13:37:32] * amee2k normally uses pink and orange for power
[13:37:39] <OndraSter> and sometimes it is even black and red... but opposite
[13:37:41] <asteve> OndraSter: UK?
[13:37:43] <OndraSter> no
[13:37:44] <OndraSter> CZE
[13:37:45] * Casper offers a sledge hammer to jan so jse can tap on her foot with it too
[13:37:55] <Casper> so jan...
[13:37:56] <OndraSter> but I am used that 5V = red (or power) and yellow = 12V (or power)
[13:37:58] <asteve> i've seen green for power and grey for ground
[13:38:07] <asteve> 12V = yellow?
[13:38:12] <OndraSter> in PCs
[13:38:14] <Casper> yes
[13:38:17] <amee2k> yes
[13:38:19] <OndraSter> so I use it on breadboard usually too
[13:38:26] <OndraSter> don't have to think about it later
[13:38:46] <amee2k> some AT PSUs use green for the optional 3.3V
[13:38:54] <Casper> red 5V, orange 3.3V, yellow 12V, purple 5VSTB, green power on signal (ground to turn the psu on)
[13:39:02] <Casper> beware
[13:39:06] <amee2k> http://fusion-core.net/thomas/doku.php?id=electronics:hack-o-atx#wiring_it_up
[13:39:08] <OndraSter> that is how it _should_ be
[13:39:14] <Casper> the color code isn't mandatory
[13:39:19] <OndraSter> yap
[13:39:22] <Casper> and can change with branded computer
[13:39:57] <Casper> also a note of warning: the 3.3V have a second wire going to one pin... those 2 wires on a pin must be together
[13:40:10] <Casper> sometime other voltage have doubled wires like that too
[13:40:19] <amee2k> yep, the sense wire
[13:40:28] <Casper> the second, small wire, is a remote voltage sense
[13:40:34] <amee2k> usually brown. it won't power on if you leave it floating
[13:41:02] <Casper> <used to monitor and adjust the voltage AT THE PIN, so all the drop due to the wire resistance is eliminated
[13:41:25] <amee2k> when you mod them you can put a trimmer between 5V and ground and the sense wire on the tap. then you can calibrate the voltages even
[13:42:08] <Casper> I got a cheapie psu that smoked when I powered it up with that wire cut.... they didn't put a resistor like good practice dictate the use
[13:42:20] <Casper> who care, it was too cheap to use anyway
[13:42:45] <amee2k> lol
[13:42:59] <amee2k> never assume a commercial product follows good practice guidelines
[13:43:30] <Jan-> do we want the ISP, PDI or TPI sockets? We were told to use the AVRISP mode in AVR Studio, so I guess ISP?
[13:43:47] <OndraSter> ye
[13:43:53] <OndraSter> PDI is for XMEGAs
[13:43:57] <OndraSter> and TPI is for small TINYs
[13:44:18] <Jan-> ten four
[13:45:03] <Jan-> Gotta find super tiny USB cable for programmer now
[13:46:58] <Jan-> A light is glowing on the programmer!
[13:47:00] <Jan-> Two lights!
[13:47:11] <amee2k> avrisp2?
[13:47:14] <dirty_d> Jan-, got a usb hard drive?
[13:47:18] <dirty_d> i used mne
[13:47:20] <Jan-> Tom_itx's programmer, amee2k.
[13:47:28] <Jan-> dirty_d: we had an appropriate cable lying around
[13:47:28] <dirty_d> Jan-, i bought his too
[13:47:29] <amee2k> ah, no idea about that one >_>
[13:47:40] <Jan-> one of them seems to indicate that we have USB power selected
[13:47:54] <Jan-> or it might just be a power light as we don't have the programmer hooked up to external power
[13:48:42] <amee2k> my avrisp has a green one to indicate USB/power, and a green/red one to indicate connection to the target system
[13:49:06] <dirty_d> i just realize ive been abusing my xmega
[13:49:18] <dirty_d> i have it set to usb power
[13:49:21] <Jan-> we hit the "read signature" button and the green light went yellow
[13:49:24] <dirty_d> i have it going to a 3.3V regulator
[13:49:28] <Jan-> but it isn't connected to a chip so it didn't actually work
[13:49:34] <dirty_d> but the PDI pins go straight to the xmega
[13:49:37] <Jan-> Now to connect it to the chip!
[13:50:40] <RikusW> easy, jsut 6 wires
[13:50:44] <RikusW> *just
[13:50:55] <dirty_d> or 4 if its an xmega :)
[13:51:03] <amee2k> well, 4 if you don't count the power pins
[13:51:08] <dirty_d> 4 total
[13:51:20] <dirty_d> yea
[13:51:22] <amee2k> mmh, xmega doesn't use normal ISP?
[13:51:28] <dirty_d> amee2k, nope, uses PDI
[13:51:33] <Jan-> it needs an x-tal too
[13:51:33] <RikusW> 3 for dW
[13:51:33] <amee2k> aah, okay
[13:51:40] <dirty_d> VCC, GND, PDI, PDI_CLK
[13:51:40] <RikusW> amee2k: jtag or PDI
[13:51:52] <dirty_d> Jan-, doesnt need a xtal
[13:52:06] <RikusW> amee2k: xmega and mega jtag protocol differs too
[13:52:17] <RikusW> xmega jtag is basically a wrapper for pdi
[13:52:20] <dirty_d> i dont think im evergoing to use a regular mega again, this thing is the same price and way better
[13:52:32] <amee2k> o.O
[13:53:06] <Jan-> ok, we're cracking the tube that has the chips in it
[13:53:08] <Jan-> wish us luck
[13:53:10] * Jan- is GOING IN
[13:53:27] <RikusW> Jan-: MOSI -> MOSI on ic
[13:53:29] <amee2k> sounds kinky
[13:53:40] <dirty_d> i have it deciding 4 RC reciever PPM channels and producing 4 PWM outputs with no CPU usage at all
[13:53:45] <dirty_d> decoding
[13:54:06] <dirty_d> leave all the cpu for vector math and PID crap
[13:54:37] <Jan-> Okay
[13:54:40] <Jan-> chip is in breadboard
[13:54:40] <dirty_d> is there such thing as PIDE?
[13:54:41] <amee2k> i want to overclock my mega88 >_<
[13:54:55] <amee2k> dirty_d: PATA you mean?
[13:54:58] <dirty_d> proportional, integral, derivative, exponential
[13:55:05] <amee2k> oh, err.
[13:55:10] <dirty_d> it seems useful to have an exponential term for a controler
[13:55:28] <amee2k> why an exponential term?
[13:55:37] <amee2k> sounds like that would be a bitch to stabilize
[13:55:41] <dirty_d> like if a piolot sees hes flying into a moutain it would be more an an OH SHIT pull up, then a normal pull up
[13:56:01] <dirty_d> so it would only com into play during oh shit moments
[13:56:09] <dirty_d> like if my quadcopter is flying sideways
[13:56:20] <dirty_d> because a squirrel jumped on it or something
[13:56:29] <amee2k> well, you can't catch a microcontroller on the toilet with a playbox mag
[13:56:32] <Jan-> dirty_d you're talking about "control loop selection"
[13:56:36] <dirty_d> yup
[13:56:44] <amee2k> so the mcu would not suddenly notice that it is flying into a mountain
[13:56:46] <Jan-> things like autopilots have that
[13:56:52] <dirty_d> lol
[13:56:53] <Jan-> they have the "everything's normal" control loop
[13:56:54] <dirty_d> yea
[13:56:57] <Jan-> then they have the "holy fuck" loop
[13:57:01] <dirty_d> my pid control works fine in my simulator
[13:57:09] <dirty_d> but im just thinking about improvements
[13:57:26] <Jan-> the 777 that crashed at heathrow had an engine controller in "oh fuck" mode, which basically comes down to one line of code that says "open the goddamn fuel valves nooooowwww"
[13:57:48] <Jan-> Of course, Rolls Royce call it "control loop 16" :)
[13:58:06] <amee2k> o.O
[13:58:13] <amee2k> sounds like a cheap porn movie
[13:58:27] <Jan-> what, control loop 16?
[13:58:31] <amee2k> yes :P
[13:59:11] <amee2k> or a wanabe mystery movie, if you want to accomodate underagers too
[13:59:12] <Jan-> ok
[13:59:13] <Jan-> crystal time
[13:59:39] <Jan-> I have 16MHz ones and 20MHz ones
[13:59:56] <amee2k> does anyone know of projects about overclocking atmegas?
[14:00:09] <dirty_d> amee2k, you cna probably just do it and it will work
[14:00:14] <Jan-> and I have 10, 15, 18 and 22 picofarad capacitors.
[14:00:26] <dirty_d> i tried I2C at 500Khz the other day and it worked fine
[14:00:33] <amee2k> Jan-: solderless breadboard?
[14:00:35] <RikusW> Jan-: try 18pF
[14:00:38] <dirty_d> Jan-, youre really prepared
[14:00:41] <Jan-> amee2k: yup
[14:00:42] <dirty_d> i never have anything i need
[14:00:48] <Jan-> dirty_d: well, I did order them specially
[14:00:57] <Jan-> RikusW: OK.
[14:00:57] <dirty_d> i forget stuff all the time
[14:01:06] <Jan-> And the crystal goes between pins 9 and 10...
[14:01:07] <amee2k> Jan-: then try without any and see if it works. it always did for me because the contact rails' parasitic capacitance is about in the right order apparently
[14:01:10] <Jan-> where do the capacitors work
[14:01:21] <Jan-> RikusW: with which xtal?
[14:01:30] <amee2k> the caps usually go from the two xtal pins to ground
[14:01:37] <Jan-> okies
[14:01:39] <amee2k> and the xtal itself between the xtal pins
[14:01:52] <RikusW> no
[14:01:53] <RikusW> only 2 caps
[14:01:53] * Jan- busts out the 20mhz xtal
[14:01:58] <RikusW> to ground
[14:02:11] <RikusW> Jan-: which avr ?
[14:02:11] <amee2k> thats what i just said :P
[14:02:42] <Jan-> RikusW: well the supplier's part code, in full, was ATM-AVR-ATMEGA168-20PU
[14:02:54] <amee2k> megaX8 then
[14:02:56] <amee2k> :P
[14:03:02] <dirty_d> i used that one for a motor controller
[14:03:05] <RikusW> then 20MHz is just fine
[14:03:07] <dirty_d> before it blew up my motor...
[14:03:09] <amee2k> also, sounds like a digi order number
[14:04:03] <Jan-> and the 18 picofarad capacitors?
[14:04:25] <dirty_d> are those supposed to match the capacitance of the crystal?
[14:04:58] <Jan-> I uhoh
[14:05:03] <Jan-> I'm generally suspicious of xtals
[14:05:08] <Jan-> I mean how the hell does that work
[14:05:12] <Jan-> it's a lump of rock
[14:05:14] <dirty_d> i dont know
[14:05:15] <dirty_d> lol
[14:05:32] <amee2k> well, the lump of rock slightly changes its size when you apply a voltage to it
[14:05:35] <dirty_d> i just solder stuff and push buttons, lol
[14:05:48] <amee2k> same effect like a piezo buzzer, actually
[14:06:20] <amee2k> and the change in size slightly changes the capacitance between the contacts and hence the voltage across the contacts
[14:06:46] <Jan-> annoyingly the legs on the capacitors are super short
[14:06:57] <Jan-> they don't reach to the nearest place we can plug them.
[14:07:14] <dirty_d> Jan-, just put it farther and use jumpers
[14:07:26] <Jan-> these legs will go like 0.1"
[14:07:30] <Jan-> I've got one in my hand
[14:07:31] <Jan-> they're tiny
[14:07:39] <amee2k> the crystal is shaped so it has a certain mechanical resonant frequency, and due to that piezoelectric effect the electrical model will also exhibit resonance at the same frequency
[14:08:09] <Jan-> also won't all the breadboard wires have more than 18pf capacitance anyway
[14:08:10] <amee2k> you can actually model a crystal like a series L-C circuit with the same resonant frequency as the xtal rating and you'll get the same results
[14:08:18] <dirty_d> Jan-, no
[14:08:28] <amee2k> Jan-: thats why i said try it without and chances are it'll work
[14:08:47] <dirty_d> Jan-, they will have very low like 0.5pF
[14:08:48] <amee2k> 18pF is *tiny* as far as capacitances go
[14:09:13] <dirty_d> http://www.ampbooks.com/home/amplifier-calculators/wire-capacitance/
[14:09:22] <amee2k> i've used 8-20MHz xtals on solderless breadboards without loading caps and never had issues
[14:09:24] <Jan-> so xtal between 9 and 10, and both 9 and 10 to ground via 18pf
[14:09:25] <Jan-> done
[14:09:54] <dirty_d> you can get away with a lot more than you think, lol
[14:10:00] <Jan-> power to the chip....
[14:10:06] <amee2k> dirty_d: you have an IEEE subscription? :P
[14:10:11] <dirty_d> lol
[14:10:45] <RikusW> Does anyone around here have an IEEE subscription ?
[14:10:49] <Jan-> what's AGND on pin 22 and why is it different to GND on pin 8
[14:10:53] <amee2k> otherwise please link to a page with real information, if you want to look smart
[14:10:54] <Jan-> oh. analog ground for the ADCs?
[14:11:06] <OndraSter> yes
[14:11:56] <RikusW> Jan-: did you connect AVcc ?
[14:12:03] <Jan-> not yet
[14:12:16] <Jan-> Tom_itx's site doesn't say to, apparently
[14:12:21] <RikusW> you really should
[14:12:25] <dirty_d> i didnt when i was playing around
[14:12:27] <RikusW> Vcc -> AVcc
[14:12:29] <dirty_d> but i didnt use the adc
[14:12:45] <Jan-> this is a 28 pin chip, right
[14:13:00] <RikusW> AVcc needs to be connected....
[14:13:01] <dirty_d> does it have 28 pins?
[14:13:02] <dirty_d> lol
[14:13:05] <RikusW> or there might be trouble
[14:13:15] <amee2k> is it DIP?
[14:13:27] <OndraSter> so, what useful can be found on motherboard from laptop? I saw there pulse transformer for ethernet, some MAX6657 IC, it should be temperature monitoring for SMBUS
[14:13:33] <amee2k> megaX8 only comes in 28 DIP or some 32-ish SMT packages
[14:13:37] <RikusW> amee2k: try plugging tqfp into a breadboard ;)
[14:13:40] <OndraSter> some switching power supply controllers
[14:13:46] <Jan-> it's dip
[14:13:56] <Jan-> so we're saying
[14:13:59] <amee2k> then its 28 pins
[14:14:03] <OndraSter> also 64MB DDR, but that's unusable for me :P
[14:14:04] <Jan-> connect vcc and avcc to 5v?
[14:14:09] <amee2k> yes
[14:14:17] <OndraSter> some heavy current inductors
[14:14:18] <OndraSter> yes Jan-
[14:14:37] <RikusW> Jan-: if you're going to use ADC you can filter AVcc
[14:14:43] <RikusW> but its not required
[14:14:51] <amee2k> the reason why the AVcc one is separate is so you can put a filter on it, but unless you have a high noise environment thats not an issue
[14:14:51] <Jan-> let's make a light flash first
[14:15:00] <OndraSter> blinkie time!
[14:15:02] <dirty_d> if youre going to oversample its better not to filter
[14:15:12] <dirty_d> jitter becomes good
[14:15:14] <Jan-> it says to connect pin 1 to 5v via 10k
[14:15:23] <OndraSter> reset
[14:15:25] <OndraSter> ye
[14:15:30] <amee2k> jitter != noise >_>
[14:15:32] <OndraSter> I tend to tie it directly to 5V...
[14:15:33] <Jan-> that's (/RESET/PCI14)
[14:15:40] <Jan-> PCI?!?!
[14:15:47] <OndraSter> PCINT14
[14:15:49] <OndraSter> maybe
[14:15:49] <amee2k> PCINT ;)
[14:15:50] <dirty_d> amee2k, dont get technical on me, lol
[14:15:50] * Jan- assumes not THAT sort of PCI
[14:15:51] <RikusW> pin change interrupt
[14:16:07] <dirty_d> if you tie reset directly to vcc you cant program the chip
[14:16:08] <amee2k> dirty_d: but... thats what smarties usually do :(
[14:16:25] <dirty_d> the programmer has to be able to pull it low
[14:16:56] <amee2k> anyway, shower time
[14:16:59] <OndraSter> oh in case of programming, yes
[14:17:03] <atmega> dirty_d: if you want to oversample, you should create your own sinus-noise with a much lower frequency than the sampling rate
[14:17:34] <OndraSter> but when I am developing on breadboard, I let the programmer take care of RESET pin... always worked so far
[14:17:52] <Jan-> pause to make more breadboard links...
[14:18:09] <dirty_d> it sucks when your cat pulls your breadboard apart
[14:19:22] <asteve> dirty_d: that does sound like it would suck
[14:19:34] <asteve> consider point-to-point vector boarding? :)
[14:20:00] <bronson_> keep 110V in the breadboard and it won't happen again.
[14:20:04] <dirty_d> lol
[14:21:36] * RikusW smells smoke
[14:22:05] <Jan-> why doesn't Tom_itx's layout include a crystal
[14:22:24] <OndraSter> it is using builtin RC oscillator
[14:22:30] <Jan-> oh
[14:22:36] <Jan-> we've installed a crystal
[14:22:37] <Jan-> does it matter
[14:23:04] <RikusW> no
[14:23:16] <Jan-> I guess I'd need to tell the thing to use it anyway, right?
[14:23:23] <OndraSter> ye
[14:23:31] <Jan-> oh well
[14:23:32] * Jan- fails
[14:23:44] <OndraSter> default is 1MHz builtin RC oscillator I think
[14:26:17] <Jan-> long leg of the LED is positive, right
[14:27:19] <asteve> longest leg is anode
[14:27:24] <Jan-> mmkay
[14:27:37] <Jan-> all we need to do now is hook up the pwogwammer
[14:28:18] <Jan-> er
[14:28:33] <Jan-> so the reset line on the programmer will drag the reset pin down despite the 10k to +5v?
[14:28:53] <dirty_d> probably
[14:28:55] <dirty_d> i useed 50k
[14:29:06] <Jan-> that's what the Tom_itx layout prescribes
[14:29:12] <dirty_d> 10k or 50?
[14:29:21] <RikusW> 10k is fine
[14:31:25] <Jan-> pin 1 is reset then.
[14:31:26] <Jan-> Active low.
[14:32:12] <Jan-> OK, so where are MOSI, MISO and vomit? Sorry I mean sick.
[14:32:20] * Jan- loves the way her puter says "SCK"
[14:32:32] <Jan-> and MISO is soup
[14:32:53] <asteve> why is your computer "saying" SCK
[14:32:55] <asteve> ?
[14:33:03] <Jan-> long story
[14:33:54] <Jan-> mosi, miso and sck seem to be pins 3, 4 and 5
[14:33:55] <Jan-> ...right?
[14:34:03] <asteve> of?
[14:34:09] <RikusW> Jan-: what kind of wires do you use to connect the programmer to the breadboard ?
[14:34:22] <Jan-> RikusW: it came with a sort of breadboard header with pins on it
[14:34:28] <Jan-> the pins are labelled on the little pcb
[14:34:38] <Tom_itx> oh you got one of those too?
[14:34:43] <Jan-> then it connects to the programmer via a 2x3 dil header
[14:34:50] <RikusW> more like pins 17 18 19
[14:35:00] <RikusW> on the m168
[14:35:06] <Jan-> oh
[14:35:08] * Jan- passes this on
[14:35:29] <Jan-> oh right
[14:35:30] <dirty_d> Jan-, i just plugged my breadboard wires into the programming cable then into the breadboard
[14:35:39] <Jan-> he was looking at it the wrong way round
[14:35:44] <dirty_d> Jan-, yea i did that too
[14:35:48] * Jan- notches down her confidence in phil another couple of clicks
[14:35:59] * Jan- gets hit over the head with a cushion
[14:36:17] <dirty_d> the pictures online are looking down at the pins on the board
[14:36:19] <dirty_d> not the cable
[14:36:34] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTinyMkII_adapter_kit_desc.jpg
[14:36:43] <dirty_d> its better to just measure the voltage on the cable
[14:36:43] <Tom_itx> breadboard adapter
[14:37:09] <Jan-> yeah we got that
[14:37:14] <Jan-> the one marked breadboard
[14:37:15] <dirty_d> fancy
[14:37:31] <asteve> Tom_itx: use imgur
[14:37:34] <Jan-> mosi to pin 17
[14:37:36] <asteve> and save yours links
[14:37:55] <RikusW> yes
[14:38:01] <mrfrenzy_> did anyone here try extracting code from a micro with code protect fuses set?
[14:38:05] <Jan-> miso to pin 18
[14:38:24] <RikusW> yes
[14:38:30] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: wanted to yes
[14:38:40] <Jan-> sck to pin 19
[14:38:54] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: you'll probably need to decap it and use some very expensive tools
[14:39:00] <RikusW> Jan-: yes
[14:39:08] <Jan-> ok I think we're done
[14:39:19] <RikusW> and reset vcc gnd ?
[14:39:26] <Jan-> yupyup
[14:39:28] <Jan-> reset to pin 1
[14:39:33] <Jan-> vcc and gnd self explanatory
[14:39:40] <RikusW> vcc to avcc ?
[14:39:41] <Jan-> actually it says +5v
[14:39:57] <Jan-> not vcc
[14:40:00] <Tom_itx> avcc should be connected too yes
[14:40:46] <mrfrenzy_> RikusW: I'm looking at this:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/mcu_lock.html basically you just need nitric acid, microscope and uv light
[14:40:48] <Jan-> Tom_itx: it isn't in the diagram on your site
[14:40:55] <RikusW> pin 20 -> pin 7
[14:41:07] <Tom_itx> well it probably should be
[14:41:19] <Jan-> "probably"
[14:41:20] <Jan-> good save :)
[14:41:23] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: uv on the wrong place erase the flash
[14:41:33] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: it must be fuming nitric acid
[14:41:54] <RikusW> sulphuric works well for the first part
[14:42:01] <RikusW> but it'll damage the die
[14:42:44] <mrfrenzy_> RikusW: yes, you put something opaque above everything except fuse bits
[14:43:32] <RikusW> if you do succeed tell me
[14:44:12] <mrfrenzy_> certainly
[14:44:31] <RikusW> Tom_itx: whats the switch on the USBTiny for ?
[14:44:36] <RikusW> vcc ?
[14:44:42] <Tom_itx> convenience
[14:44:49] <Tom_itx> yes
[14:45:31] <RikusW> so Jan- don't need a power supply, only usb power
[14:45:44] <Tom_itx> very likely so
[14:46:12] <Tom_itx> until you exceed the vbus limits on the target breadboard
[14:47:00] <RikusW> should be fine for programming
[14:47:15] <Tom_itx> i do it all the time
[14:47:46] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: why the need for the fw ?
[14:48:01] * amee2k idly wonders if he could sue onion manufacturers for not putting a label on the onions that says "only use in well ventilated areas and keep away from ignition sources"
[14:48:08] <nofxx> USBasp Tom_itx ?
[14:48:09] <RikusW> I hope you know reverse engineering is _HARD_ work....
[14:48:22] <Tom_itx> nofxx, hell no
[14:48:23] <amee2k> lol
[14:48:27] <Jan-> OK, it's all patched up
[14:48:41] <amee2k> RikusW: i had a funny cockfight about that with another dude yesterday
[14:48:45] <Jan-> I guess if we just powere it up now it'll sit there and do nothing
[14:48:57] <Tom_itx> nofxx, it's my own programmer
[14:49:11] <amee2k> i was idly going on about some of the laser range finders i'm looking at and complaining about funny feature selection on some model lines
[14:49:13] <RikusW> amee2k: he thinks its hollywood style easy ?
[14:49:21] <mrfrenzy_> RikusW: some stupid company is selling their product much more expensive in my country than in another country
[14:49:22] <Tom_itx> amee2k, who's cock won?
[14:49:26] <nofxx> Tom_itx, just curious when you said 'do all the time' usb programming... vusb or usb enabled mcu?
[14:49:33] <mrfrenzy_> I intend to copy the localised firmware to the imported product
[14:49:57] <Tom_itx> nofxx, i use power from the usb to power the breadboard all the time
[14:49:58] <RikusW> nofxx: m32u2
[14:50:09] <Tom_itx> at90usb162
[14:50:27] <Jan-> OK, the programmer lights up when we apply power
[14:50:28] <amee2k> RikusW: and then some other dude who is like the channel's wanabe elitist FOSS prick comes in and goes like well, thats why you people should be using free software. no need to castrate products to charge more money
[14:50:34] <RikusW> mrfrenzy_: and lockbits is set ?
[14:50:39] * Jan- hates foss pricks
[14:51:04] <Jan-> Tom_itx: what does two red lights on the programmer mean
[14:51:25] <Jan-> not plugged into USB, but connected to the chip and switched to board power not USB power
[14:51:39] <Jan-> one of them was green when we just connected it to USB
[14:51:55] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, i think i did something bad, I select usb power, then to 3.3V reg for xmega, bu PDI straight to the Xmega, it was getting 5V on PDI pins right?
[14:51:57] <amee2k> long story short it ended in me and two other guys politely explaining that reverse engineering a product like such a range finder to a degree where you can write meaningful firmware for it
[14:51:57] <RikusW> usb should be connected before avr power...
[14:52:05] <amee2k> is more work than designing a new one from scratch
[14:52:25] <mrfrenzy_> RikusW: I have not checked yet, but I would be VERY surprised if they are not
[14:52:25] <Tom_itx> dirty_d yes
[14:52:27] <Jan-> RikusW: OK
[14:52:28] <Tom_itx> shame on you
[14:52:39] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, it didnt ruin it so i guess im lucky, lol
[14:52:42] <Jan-> I'm just nervous about connecting it to the PC before we know what's going
[14:52:43] <Jan-> on
[14:52:45] <Tom_itx> i've done it before
[14:52:47] <Jan-> I don't want to hurt my PC
[14:52:57] <Tom_itx> connecting what to the pc?
[14:53:03] <Jan-> the whole deal
[14:53:06] <Jan-> via your programmer
[14:53:13] <dirty_d> just do it
[14:53:18] <Tom_itx> yeah what he said
[14:53:20] <dirty_d> it probably wont explode
[14:53:24] <RikusW> amee2k: reverse engineering can take months...
[14:53:47] <Jan-> is there some way I can just ping the thing to see if it's basically working
[14:53:58] <dirty_d> yea
[14:54:13] <Tom_itx> Jan-, plug what in to see if it's working?
[14:54:21] <dirty_d> just specify the target for avrdude and it will read the deviuce signature
[14:54:37] <Jan-> ok
[14:54:38] <Jan-> we risked it
[14:54:42] <dirty_d> lol
[14:54:43] <amee2k> RikusW: he kept coming up with lines like "yeah you'll have to write it in assembler probably" and stuff like that
[14:54:52] <RikusW> Jan-: in avr studio 4 try reading the device signature
[14:54:53] <Jan-> ely explainingthat reverse engineering a product like such arange finder to a degree where you can write meaningful firmware for it
[14:54:53] <Jan-> [20:42] <RikusW> usb should be connected before avr power...
[14:54:57] <Jan-> DAMMIT sorry
[14:55:15] <Jan-> that's what we did
[14:55:21] <amee2k> never even thinking about that you need a fairly good idea of the hardware you're working on before you can get on writing ANY firmware for it
[14:55:37] <Jan-> now it says 0x1E 0x94 0x06 and "signature matches selected device"
[14:55:42] <Jan-> does this mean we built the breadboard right
[14:55:45] <RikusW> nice
[14:55:49] <RikusW> YES
[14:55:55] <Jan-> woohoo!
[14:56:00] <amee2k> provided it isn't OTP or locked out so you need to pull chips off to upload new firmware and can't recover the original firmware for study
[14:56:04] * Jan- grabs RikusW and HuUuUuUugs
[14:56:14] * Jan- runs around in circles, waving her arms
[14:56:18] * Jan- hugs Tom_itx also
[14:56:35] * Jan- cracks a celebratory beer
[14:56:44] <Tom_itx> what else would you have expected?
[14:56:54] <Jan-> a smell of burning plastic usually knowing me
[14:56:56] <Tom_itx> pure genius floats around in this room
[14:57:19] <dirty_d> lol
[14:57:21] <Jan-> holy hell the power supply says the whole thing is drawing 200ma
[14:57:31] <Jan-> I thought these damn things were suitable for battery power?!
[14:57:35] <RikusW> did you connect avcc ?
[14:57:40] <Jan-> yep
[14:57:48] <RikusW> should be 10 or 20mA
[14:57:57] <Jan-> I was gonna say
[14:57:59] <Tom_itx> RUN!
[14:58:02] <Jan-> I knew this wouldn't work first time :/
[14:58:08] <dirty_d> maybe it is going to blow up after all
[14:58:19] <dirty_d> its working
[14:58:21] <RikusW> how about the power switch on the programmer ?
[14:58:21] <Jan-> he's going to get a more accurate meter
[14:58:27] <Tom_itx> Jan-, are you using a separate power supply on the breadboard?
[14:58:43] <Tom_itx> if you are, select target power on the programmer
[14:58:46] <dirty_d> Jan-, the avr isnt hot right?
[14:58:59] * Jan- sticks her finger on it
[14:59:00] <Jan-> nope
[14:59:07] <dirty_d> well tahts good
[14:59:15] * abcminiuser decrees Tom_itx his official firmware guinea pig
[14:59:34] <Tom_itx> that was only a day and a half
[14:59:36] <Tom_itx> not bad
[14:59:36] <Jan-> oh
[14:59:42] <Jan-> were we leaking power into the computer's USB bus?
[14:59:49] <RikusW> possibly
[14:59:52] <Jan-> aargh!
[14:59:55] <Tom_itx> no, it was spilling out onto the floor
[14:59:57] * Jan- runs around in circles, waving her arms
[15:00:09] * Jan- specifically didn't want to end up wrecking her PC :/
[15:00:10] <Tom_itx> clean it up
[15:00:15] <dirty_d> does that mean the switch is on usb power?
[15:00:19] <RikusW> it shouldn't
[15:00:24] <Jan-> I changed the switch
[15:00:30] <dirty_d> and your 5V is slightly more than the usbs 5v
[15:00:31] <Jan-> now there's just one green light on the programmer
[15:00:34] <Jan-> but it still seems to work
[15:00:49] <Jan-> what does 0x1e 0x94 0x06 mean
[15:00:58] <RikusW> the device signature
[15:01:08] <RikusW> 0x1E is atmels id
[15:01:16] <RikusW> 0x94 means 16k flash
[15:01:22] <RikusW> 0x06 is for the m168
[15:01:29] * Jan- copypastas Tom_itx's blinkolite code
[15:01:42] <Jan-> It's an AVR who else's ID is it gonna be :)
[15:01:45] <Tom_itx> Jan-, switch the switch on the programmer to target power
[15:02:14] <Jan-> it says "WR" and "SEL"
[15:02:19] <Jan-> it's nearer "SEL" now
[15:02:31] <dirty_d> away from the usb connector
[15:02:33] <Jan-> power consumption is lower
[15:02:34] <Tom_itx> the red light is out?
[15:02:40] <Jan-> yes and yes
[15:02:43] <Tom_itx> good
[15:02:51] <Jan-> so that 200ma we saw was the programmer?
[15:02:56] <Tom_itx> that's what the red light indicates
[15:03:00] <Jan-> oh OK
[15:03:08] <Tom_itx> target power, the light is out
[15:03:13] <Tom_itx> vbus power the led is on
[15:03:20] <Jan-> yaya it says on your site
[15:03:23] <abcminiuser> Jan-, how are you reading a label without braille?
[15:03:25] <Tom_itx> READ IT
[15:03:26] <Tom_itx> !
[15:03:46] <Tom_itx> i sent her a braile programmer
[15:03:50] <Jan-> abcminiuser: Help
[15:03:54] <Tom_itx> all ones and o's
[15:04:01] <Jan-> And I don't read braille.
[15:04:11] <Jan-> Braille is for moronic born blind people to use as a club to beat everyone else with
[15:04:30] * Jan- erects her portable soapbox and prepares to deliver some serious political rhetoric
[15:04:44] <Tom_itx> you're quite a pistol. glad your across the pond
[15:04:52] <dirty_d> lol
[15:04:53] <Jan-> teehee
[15:05:00] <Jan-> you haven't met anyone who was born blind have you :)
[15:05:06] <Jan-> bitches every one of em
[15:05:16] <LoRez> yeah, cuz you're not a bitch?
[15:05:20] <Tom_itx> it's likely different in your case
[15:05:26] <LoRez> not to mean we don't like you anyway
[15:05:28] <Jan-> anyway I have copypasta'd the "blink delay" code into myproject.c
[15:05:31] <Jan-> how do I make it GO
[15:05:42] <Tom_itx> just say 'go'
[15:05:51] <Jan-> what's different in my case?
[15:05:53] <RikusW> compile it
[15:05:55] <Jan-> is your code for linux people
[15:06:01] <Tom_itx> all races
[15:06:03] <Tom_itx> even linux
[15:06:08] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, you need to put the labels in braille, but back to front
[15:06:23] <Jan-> make: makefile: no such file or directory
[15:06:29] <Jan-> no rule to make target makefile: stop
[15:06:40] <Tom_itx> download the files
[15:06:45] <Tom_itx> they're all ther
[15:06:46] <Tom_itx> e
[15:06:50] <Jan-> which files?!
[15:06:53] <Jan-> but hang on
[15:06:58] <Tom_itx> from the tutorial
[15:07:00] <Jan-> then it says "build succeeded with 0 warnings"
[15:07:17] <Jan-> http://pastebin.com/KTLdL2XU
[15:07:22] <RikusW> now open the programming dialog again and flash the .hex file
[15:07:26] <Tom_itx> what tools are you using?
[15:07:30] <Jan-> avr studio 4
[15:07:31] <Tom_itx> studio?
[15:07:43] <Tom_itx> tell it you want to use an external makeifle
[15:07:50] <Jan-> um
[15:07:50] <Tom_itx> file even
[15:07:50] <Jan-> er
[15:07:58] <Tom_itx> or don't
[15:08:00] <Tom_itx> i don't care
[15:08:15] <Jan-> I do
[15:08:21] <dirty_d> am i the only one thats completely bewildered right now?
[15:08:25] <Jan-> no?
[15:08:29] <dirty_d> Jan-, are you really blind? how are you doing all of this?
[15:08:30] <Tom_itx> apparently not dirty_d
[15:08:39] <Jan-> dirty_d: yes. with help.
[15:09:22] <Jan-> what does all that debug output mean
[15:09:23] <dirty_d> Jan-, oh with some kid of software too?
[15:09:32] <Jan-> dirty_d can we talk about this some other time
[15:09:47] <dirty_d> sorry
[15:09:47] <Tom_itx> no
[15:09:51] <Tom_itx> we need to clear this up
[15:10:03] <Jan-> clear what up
[15:10:05] <Tom_itx> and never bring it up again
[15:10:09] <Jan-> PLEASE yes.
[15:10:29] <Tom_itx> dirty_d, she's a hawt chick that was in an accident
[15:10:38] <Tom_itx> now apparently blind and cripple
[15:10:49] <Tom_itx> although she types better than me
[15:10:51] <Jan-> hey, just blind
[15:10:57] <Tom_itx> i have logs
[15:11:00] <dirty_d> oh my
[15:11:03] <RikusW> dirty_d: she use this:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/jaws-hq.asp
[15:11:43] <dirty_d> we have things like that at this school
[15:12:05] * Jan- attempts to drag the channel back on topic using a powerful agricultural vehicle and a big wire rope
[15:12:10] <dirty_d> lol
[15:12:12] <Jan-> the debug output, anyway?
[15:12:47] <dirty_d> it looks like it worked...
[15:12:54] <dirty_d> but im not sure how
[15:13:08] <dirty_d> try copying and pasting the gcc command and running it alone
[15:21:10] <Jan-> is io.h the sort of basic stuff with "PORTB" and "DDRB" and so on defined in it
[15:21:37] <asteve> was that a question?
[15:21:48] <Jan-> yup
[15:22:34] <Jan-> if I hit "build" now it says "succeeded with 0 warnings"
[15:22:59] <Jan-> is this good:
http://pastebin.com/A0QwxGb1
[15:23:51] <dirty_d> Jan-, it looks like youve done good
[15:23:58] <Jan-> OK
[15:24:09] <Jan-> how do I make it write the finished executable code to the AVR?
[15:24:19] <Tom_itx> yoo hoo!
[15:24:20] <Jan-> I assume I have to check at least some things in the "auto" dialog
[15:24:21] <dirty_d> did it crete a .hex file?
[15:24:27] <Jan-> I dunno
[15:24:28] <Jan-> Did it?
[15:24:32] <dirty_d> i dunno, lol
[15:24:36] <Tom_itx> well let's find out
[15:24:43] <Jan-> where would it be
[15:24:46] <Tom_itx> did you connect to the programmer?
[15:24:57] <Jan-> well it can read the device serial number and so on
[15:24:58] <Jan-> so I guess so
[15:25:13] <Tom_itx> ok so you have a dialog box up right?
[15:25:25] <Tom_itx> and apparently you have selected the device already
[15:25:28] <Jan-> "AVRISP MkIII in ISP mode with ATmega168"
[15:25:39] <Jan-> Though it's actually your programmer. But it thinks it's one of those.
[15:25:55] <Tom_itx> ok select the Program tab
[15:26:03] <Jan-> that's what I was looking at
[15:26:12] <Tom_itx> check the erase before program check box
[15:26:18] <Tom_itx> and verify after program
[15:26:33] <Tom_itx> leave the eeprom section empty
[15:26:36] <Jan-> already is
[15:26:43] <Jan-> ok
[15:26:53] <Tom_itx> on the Flash section navigate to the directory where you put the files
[15:27:01] <Tom_itx> and find the hex file
[15:27:03] <Jan-> eeprom is so you can pre include data in the flash memory right?
[15:27:14] <Tom_itx> yes
[15:27:45] <Jan-> I don't know where the hex file is
[15:27:49] <Jan-> it built something
[15:27:53] <Jan-> Dunno where
[15:28:04] <Tom_itx> where did you put the files?
[15:28:19] <Jan-> I didn't
[15:28:25] <Tom_itx> where did you put the project files when you created the new project
[15:28:27] <Jan-> I just copied it out of the web page into test.c
[15:28:27] <Tom_itx> did so
[15:29:09] <Tom_itx> if you're gonna use studio you need to back up and do it right
[15:29:14] <Tom_itx> create a new project
[15:29:50] <Jan-> well I can do that but it'll just put it... somewhere... again
[15:29:58] <Tom_itx> but you can tell it where
[15:30:25] <Jan-> I think it put the existing one in the current user's documents folder
[15:30:34] <Jan-> there it is. test.c
[15:30:37] <Tom_itx> ok
[15:30:37] <Jan-> but no hex file
[15:30:43] <Tom_itx> there is a subdir though
[15:30:44] <Tom_itx> right?
[15:30:48] <Tom_itx> look in it
[15:30:51] <Tom_itx> you'll find the hex
[15:30:55] <Jan-> there's test.aps, test.aws and test.c
[15:31:03] <Tom_itx> those are the project files
[15:31:20] <Tom_itx> did you compile it?
[15:31:22] <grummund> howdy peeps
[15:31:24] <Jan-> what will the hex file be called
[15:31:29] <Tom_itx> test.hex
[15:31:50] <Jan-> it's in a folder called "default"
[15:31:58] <Jan-> thanks atmel for your absolutely awesome folder naming :/
[15:31:58] <Tom_itx> yup
[15:32:09] <Tom_itx> it creates a sub folder
[15:32:11] <Tom_itx> just for you
[15:32:14] <Jan-> why the hell isn't that automatically selected in the write dialog in studio
[15:32:24] <Tom_itx> ok now...
[15:32:31] <Tom_itx> back to the program dialog box
[15:32:38] <Jan-> I think I can probably work it out from here
[15:32:44] <Tom_itx> i just bet you can
[15:33:00] <Tom_itx> next time create a new project
[15:33:11] <Tom_itx> then either write the code or add current files to it
[15:33:25] <Tom_itx> then you'll know where they are
[15:33:29] <Jan-> the LED on the avr is on
[15:33:34] <Jan-> but it isn't specifically....blinking
[15:33:41] <Jan-> oh no wait it is. Just verrrry slowly.
[15:33:50] <Tom_itx> about as slow as possible
[15:33:59] <Tom_itx> you have ckdiv8 enabled
[15:34:08] <Tom_itx> so it's about 1 or 2Mhz
[15:34:28] <Tom_itx> and the timer prescalar is about as slow as it can be too
[15:34:43] <Tom_itx> err maybe that's on a different tutorial
[15:36:24] <Tom_itx> see in the code F_CPU is defined as 8Mhz
[15:36:46] <Tom_itx> but if ckdiv8 is selected (which it probably is) it's gonna run alot slower than expected
[15:36:57] <Tom_itx> cause it's running at 1Mhz instead of 8
[15:37:04] <Tom_itx> but the code doesn't know it
[15:37:34] <Jan-> I just changed Delay(1000) to Delay(10)
[15:37:36] <Jan-> now it's fast
[15:37:48] <Tom_itx> change the F_CPU instead
[15:37:53] <Tom_itx> and recompile it
[15:38:18] <Tom_itx> make it 1000000UL instead of 8
[15:41:01] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, did you see my new tutorial PDFs?
[15:41:03] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, i'll just use the comments from git to describe the update
[15:41:06] <Tom_itx> nope
[15:41:31] <abcminiuser> I've converted them all to LaTeX, see PDFs on www.fourwalledcubicle.com/AVRArticles.php
[15:41:38] <abcminiuser> ^ Sure, describe however you want
[15:41:58] <Tom_itx> if i do that then i can blame you
[15:41:59] <Tom_itx> :)
[15:42:32] <Jan-> how do I tell it to use its crystal
[15:42:40] <Jan-> we connected one
[15:42:51] <Tom_itx> what freq?
[15:42:59] <Jan-> 20 MHz
[15:43:41] <abcminiuser> Also your firmware versions are out of order
[15:43:41] <abcminiuser> 2011, 2010, 2012
[15:43:41] <abcminiuser> Might want to just keep the latest version there instead, keep older ones on a new page
[15:43:41] <abcminiuser> Jan-, you can set the clock source of an 8-bit AVR via it's fuses
[15:43:42] <abcminiuser> Be VERY CAREFUL
[15:43:42] <abcminiuser> EXTERNAL CLOCK DOES NOT EQUAL EXTERNAL CRYSTAL
[15:43:47] <abcminiuser> I hope your screen reader uses a suitable yelling voice for that
[15:43:53] <Jan-> it doesn't
[15:43:58] <Jan-> but I understand why that's important
[15:44:16] <Jan-> if I screw it up it'll have no clock source at all and not be able to be reprogrammed.
[15:44:33] <Tom_itx> http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc/
[15:44:38] <abcminiuser> Jan-, if you have Tom's programmer, you get a sexy clock out on it
[15:44:40] <Tom_itx> that'll help you figure it out
[15:45:07] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, that one requires the firmware update for it
[15:45:12] <abcminiuser> Indeedy
[15:45:40] <OndraSter> I just pulled some item from borked laptop motherboard
[15:45:41] <Jan-> tom I have your programmer in my hand
[15:45:43] <Jan-> and the parts are TINY
[15:45:43] <OndraSter> it has R001 on it
[15:45:44] * abcminiuser is going to go have an emergency meeting with his shower to discuss things
[15:45:48] <OndraSter> could it be 0.001Ohm resistor?
[15:45:49] <OndraSter> shunt
[15:45:55] <OndraSter> it is bigger than regular 1206 resistor
[15:46:16] <OndraSter> my dmm has the lowest range 200Ohm
[15:46:32] <OndraSter> I measure 0 resistance on it
[15:46:36] <OndraSter> ergo it could be precision resistor
[15:47:24] <Jan-> do I want low-swing crystal, full-swing crystal, or (I assume) Crystal Osc
[15:48:45] <Jan-> also I don't understand all the other characteristics you can set about clocks
[15:48:46] <Tom_itx> full swing puts a little more voltage on the crystal according to casper
[15:48:48] <Jan-> power down/reset time?
[15:48:52] <Tom_itx> no
[15:49:03] <Tom_itx> i'll tell you what to use if you can hang on
[15:49:08] <Jan-> okay
[15:49:38] <Tom_itx> CKSEL = 0111 SUT = 11
[15:49:48] <Tom_itx> full swing crystal with maximum startup time
[15:50:52] <Jan-> is maximum startup time somehow "safer"
[15:50:54] <Tom_itx> so defaults should be LF: 0x62, HF 0xDF, EF:0xF9
[15:51:19] <Tom_itx> and you want LF:0x77, HF:0xDF, EF:0xF9
[15:51:23] <OndraSter> I need sillicon small box
[15:51:25] <Tom_itx> so you only change the LF
[15:51:32] <OndraSter> so it can fit three small BGAs and can be put onto keychain :P
[15:51:34] <Tom_itx> to 0x77
[15:51:36] <Jan-> well hang on it's all in a dropdown under fuses in avr studio
[15:51:48] <Jan-> called sut_cksel
[15:52:16] <Jan-> I have no idea where Id put the numbers you gave me
[15:52:27] <Jan-> but I can select a reasonable option in the SUT_CKSEL dropdown
[15:52:55] <Tom_itx> it's a mega168 right?
[15:53:04] <Jan-> yup
[15:53:35] <Tom_itx> just go down to the LOW fuse and change the number to 0x77
[15:53:42] <Jan-> hang on
[15:53:50] <Jan-> we're experimenting
[15:54:01] <Jan-> changing it to one of the Ext Crystal Osc 8.0+ options made it go faster.
[15:54:05] <Tom_itx> it will update the setting
[15:54:14] <Jan-> clearing the CKDIV8 thing made it go so fast it just looks like a dim light
[15:54:21] <Tom_itx> yep
[15:54:23] <Jan-> which would seem to make sense
[15:54:44] <Tom_itx> Jan-
[15:54:48] <Tom_itx> write down your fuse settings
[15:55:00] <Jan-> F9 DF 4E
[15:55:02] <Tom_itx> in case you screw up you'll know what they were
[15:55:07] <Jan-> extended, high, low
[15:55:08] <Tom_itx> i don't need them
[15:55:22] <Jan-> but you said 77
[15:55:25] <Jan-> and we ended up with 4E
[15:55:33] <Tom_itx> mkay
[15:56:15] <Jan-> now we're probing the CKOUT pin with a frequency counter :)
[15:56:50] <Tom_itx> on the programmer?
[15:56:58] <Tom_itx> it's not on
[15:57:00] <Jan-> On the chip.
[15:57:03] <Tom_itx> oh
[15:57:14] <Jan-> I had to turn it on
[15:57:20] <abcminiuser> Shower won
[15:57:31] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, are you a lighter shade now?
[15:58:22] <Tom_itx> your router hates you
[15:58:36] <abcminiuser> Indeed
[15:58:45] <abcminiuser> Ah well, time to get to bed anyway
[15:59:18] <dirty_d> time to gtfo and go home
[15:59:18] <Tom_itx> i'm probably gonna dump all those updates off the site now
[15:59:29] <Tom_itx> and keep the last 2 i think
[16:00:08] <abcminiuser> Before you freak out, the latest push is cosmetic
[16:00:25] <Tom_itx> when did this happen?
[16:00:54] <Tom_itx> i still haven't grabbed it yet
[16:01:58] <Jan-> er
[16:02:10] <Jan-> Tom_itx, your code defines the clock output pin to flash the LED :)
[16:02:26] <Jan-> Can we use another one?
[16:02:33] <Tom_itx> i don't care
[16:02:44] <Tom_itx> change it with DDRx and PORTx
[16:02:56] <Jan-> sure
[16:03:06] <Jan-> just wanted to make sure we weren't using any of those, for, like, programming the thing
[16:03:09] <Jan-> that would be embarrassing
[16:03:15] <Jan-> can't really use B
[16:03:30] <Jan-> D seems usable
[16:03:33] <Tom_itx> A is usually adc as a 2nd function
[16:04:10] <Tom_itx> B is really the first one you can somewhat rely on that all chips probably have
[16:04:25] <Jan-> there doesn't seem to be an A
[16:05:25] * Tom_itx refers to what he just said
[16:05:34] <Tom_itx> adc is on C on that one though
[16:05:58] <Jan-> yeah
[16:05:59] <Jan-> there literally is no A
[16:06:03] <Jan-> not even used as something else
[16:06:13] * Jan- thinks this frequency counter is lying
[16:07:17] <Jan-> if I was using a 20 MHz crystal would you expect the clock output to have 20 MHz on it?
[16:07:30] <Tom_itx> no
[16:07:33] <Jan-> well it doesn't :)
[16:07:41] <Tom_itx> you mean xtal1 or xtal2?
[16:07:48] <Jan-> I mean CLKO
[16:07:52] <Jan-> pin 14
[16:07:55] <Jan-> with CKOUT fuse set
[16:08:08] <Tom_itx> what's the data sheet tell you about CKOUT?
[16:08:21] <Tom_itx> does it run thru a prescalar?
[16:08:26] <Tom_itx> what's the prescalar set to
[16:08:29] <asteve> crockpot muthafuckas, do you speak it?
[16:08:32] <Jan-> I'm checking
[16:08:41] <Jan-> I cleared the CKDIV8 fuse, anyway
[16:08:56] <Tom_itx> asteve language will get you kicked
[16:09:54] <abcminiuser> I'm off, night all
[16:10:00] <Tom_itx> gnite
[16:10:03] <Tom_itx> thanks
[16:10:17] <abcminiuser> No prob, let me know of any issues
[16:10:17] <abcminiuser> Talk tomorrow
[16:10:21] <Tom_itx> ok
[16:10:43] <Jan-> nini
[16:11:00] <Jan-> Er |the clkpce bit is only updated when the other bits in clkpr are simultaneously written to zero"
[16:11:04] <Jan-> sounds like that's nand flash
[16:11:42] <asteve> Tom_itx: i apologize for the use of "language"
[16:12:17] <Jan-> this frequency counter swears there's 45mhz coming out of the clko pin
[16:12:22] <Jan-> I suspect the frequency counter is broken.
[16:12:33] <Steffann> :)
[16:12:39] <Tom_itx> the avr would glow in the dark if it was
[16:12:40] <Steffann> You overclocked the AVR?
[16:12:40] <OndraSter> haha
[16:12:49] <Jan-> sorry 40mhz
[16:12:50] <OndraSter> I have got here 50MHz RC generator
[16:12:55] <Jan-> pretty accurately 40mhz
[16:12:58] <OndraSter> might try overclocking atmega
[16:13:05] <OndraSter> if I manage to get there square wave output
[16:13:43] <Jan-> hehe
[16:13:50] <Steffann> Overclock the attiny45 to 24MHz, set the ppl to 96MHz and you can have a transmitter :)
[16:13:57] <Jan-> phil just said: "note to self do not use six inch long bits of hookup wire to probe 20mhz signals"
[16:14:01] <Steffann> FM Transmitter
[16:16:29] <Jan-> still weird when you set ckdiv8
[16:16:40] <Jan-> but otherwise, now it actually reads nearly 20 :)
[16:16:56] <Tom_itx> if you chang ckdiv8 you also need to change F_CPU
[16:17:36] <Jan-> I mean just in terms of the CLKO pin
[16:17:41] <Jan-> it seems to change the way it's driven or something
[16:18:00] <Jan-> without it set, the frequency counter reads something near 20.018MHz
[16:18:14] <Jan-> with it set you'd expect 2.5mhz but it goes haywire
[16:18:59] <OndraSter> 20.018 is quite swing
[16:19:10] <Jan-> frequency counter last calibration 1983
[16:19:11] <Tom_itx> ok you're off and running. we'll leave it to you now to break it
[16:19:16] <OndraSter> oh Jan-
[16:19:24] <OndraSter> I have something similar :D
[16:19:25] <Jan-> Tom_itx: cool thanks :D
[16:19:28] <OndraSter> who knows if it was calibrated at all
[16:19:47] <Jan-> Marconi Instruments 560Mhz Digital Frequency Meter Type 2432A
[16:19:57] <OndraSter> I have some philips
[16:20:00] <Jan-> it must be old, it's an electronic device and it was manufactured in a western country
[16:20:03] <OndraSter> goes to 250MHz I think?
[16:21:40] <OndraSter> Philips PM 6622... 80MHz actually only
[16:21:43] <OndraSter> got it for free from school
[16:21:48] <OndraSter> from basement :D
[16:22:24] <OndraSter> http://www.el.utwente.nl/studieverzameling/photos/PM%206622%20timer-counter_100310_163849.jpg
[16:23:40] <Jan-> I can't see pics, but I get the idea
[16:23:40] <Jan-> I guess they're mainly much the same
[16:23:40] <impulse32> if i print some characters to my FTDI's node with echo, will it automatically use the right baudrate?
[16:25:34] <Jan-> The frequency appears to be dropping over time
[16:25:43] <Jan-> now it's only 20.002MHz
[16:25:47] <Jan-> (indicated)
[16:30:18] <OndraSter> could be reaching its nominal temperature?
[16:30:38] <Jan-> I'm not sure.
[16:32:46] <Jan-> it seems to slow down if I put my finger on it
[16:33:53] <OndraSter> extra capacitance
[16:48:04] <Jan-> is there some super obvious way to set things up so that in my finished product, people can a) plug it into USB to set up things and maybe write values to the flash, and b) send it new firmware the same way?
[16:51:25] <grummund> the USB chips come with a DFU bootloader pre-installed
[16:51:30] <grummund> so the user just needs Atmel's FLIP utility and your hex file
[16:52:40] <Jan-> awsum
[16:52:54] <Jan-> does all this mean I have to avoid using the ISP pins in my application
[16:53:01] <Jan-> or is there some sort of clever atmel specific code
[16:53:58] <Kevin`> Jan-: isp is a seperate interface from the usb controller
[16:54:19] <Jan-> oh
[16:54:19] <Kevin`> Jan-: if you can avoid using the isp pins, do so. it's possible to use the pins for both isp and external devices in many cases though
[16:54:19] <Jan-> er
[16:54:27] <Jan-> I see
[16:54:42] <Jan-> So it isn't specifically using SPI to program the chip, it's some atmel specific thing?
[16:54:54] <Kevin`> it's using a bootloader, over usb
[16:55:04] <Kevin`> although a bootloader can use any interface
[16:55:44] <Kevin`> you won't be able to change fuse settings or upload a different bootloader without isp though
[16:57:42] <Jan-> hrm
[16:57:55] <Jan-> but the ISP pins are also the SPI pins.
[16:58:00] * Jan- hates all these initialisms
[16:58:47] <Kevin`> if you are using them for a normal spi device, it won't interfere with isp, since there's a cs pin
[16:59:40] <Jan-> I see
[17:00:04] <Jan-> but presumably if there's actual SPI traffic going on it could screw thing sup
[17:00:47] <Kevin`> why would there be actual spi traffic when the controller is off and being programmed?
[17:00:56] <Jan-> er
[17:01:08] <Jan-> surely the controller needs vcc to be programmed?
[17:01:21] <Kevin`> sure, but when it's in programming mode it's not executing code
[17:01:31] <Jan-> how do I put it in "programming mode"
[17:01:36] <Jan-> is that something I Have to include in software?
[17:01:51] <Kevin`> hold down the reset pin and send a special sequence over isp
[17:01:56] <Kevin`> (holding down reset stops code, of course)
[17:01:58] <Jan-> Ohhhh.
[17:02:06] <Jan-> That's why this programmer wants access to reset.
[17:03:18] <Jan-> so the USB AVRs come with the ability to have their firmware redone via usb, using an atmel-supplied tool
[17:03:29] <Jan-> but I can also use the USB for normal serial stuff, right?
[17:03:55] <Kevin`> the usb programming is done via a bootloader, which is normal code on the chip that programs itself
[17:04:01] <Jan-> ri...ight
[17:04:06] <Kevin`> it's not a magic mode of the usb controller or something
[17:04:09] <Jan-> is that code I have to take care not to erase
[17:04:22] <Kevin`> you can download it from atmel
[17:04:33] <Jan-> oh, I just include it in my project
[17:04:34] <Kevin`> or build your own
[17:04:34] <Jan-> okies
[17:04:43] <Kevin`> it's not part of your project code
[17:04:49] <Jan-> er
[17:04:50] <Kevin`> except in strange cases
[17:04:52] <Jan-> but it is code.
[17:05:57] <Kevin`> it's a seperate program from the application
[17:05:57] <Jan-> but if I have to download it from atmel where do I put it
[17:05:57] <Kevin`> on the chip
[17:05:57] <Jan-> so I have to include it in the project *somehow*, presumably
[17:06:02] <LoRez> no, you don't.
[17:06:11] <LoRez> you preload it onto the chip at the end.
[17:06:56] <Jan-> er
[17:07:00] <Jan-> you preload it afterwards?
[17:07:08] <LoRez> then the atmel software can reset the avr into the bootloader and download *your* program to the front of the chip
[17:07:09] <Jan-> how can you pre do something after everything else
[17:07:23] <Jan-> oh
[17:07:23] <Jan-> I see
[17:07:25] <Jan-> special software
[17:07:26] <Jan-> check
[17:07:33] <LoRez> at the end of the flash
[17:07:36] <Jan-> is this software you get from atmel that you use to do this
[17:08:37] <grummund> the bootloader it just like some extra code that sits in the AVR memory and allows it to self-program
[17:09:00] <Jan-> I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it
[17:09:04] <Jan-> it must take up some flash space though
[17:09:24] <grummund> it does but not much
[17:10:08] <Jan-> handy ability
[17:10:15] <grummund> non-usb chips can have a bootloader too, just that atmel doesn't ship them like that
[17:10:37] <Jan-> I need to read up on this
[17:10:51] <Jan-> is there some kind of driver or API available for windows so you can communicate with the chip as a USB device, for your applicatiohn?
[17:11:32] <grummund> yep, CDC driver makes it a virtual com port
[17:11:57] <Jan-> I'd like to find a solution that I can use in say C# that doesn't require my user to install a third party driver
[17:12:02] <Jan-> but I suspect that's tricky
[17:12:18] <Jan-> unless I can somehow talk to it as a lower level USB device without the serial emulation
[17:12:56] <Kevin`> Jan-: the chip can behave as any type of usb device
[17:13:06] <Jan-> oh cool
[17:13:07] <Kevin`> Jan-: if you want it usable in windows, pick a device type that windows has a driver for
[17:13:13] <Jan-> hrmns
[17:13:22] <Jan-> I'd just want to be able to send parameters to it
[17:13:37] <nevyn> so I've seen people abuse usb mass storage for this.
[17:13:43] <nevyn> but that's nasty
[17:13:46] <Kevin`> that's super nasty. no
[17:13:50] <Kevin`> don't
[17:14:09] <Kevin`> i've seen the buggy crap that happens when somebody tries to do that
[17:14:09] <nevyn> serial is far nicer
[17:14:23] <nevyn> there's silicon that does this by design.
[17:14:25] <nevyn> it's wrong
[17:23:08] <Jan-> if you did mass storage wouldn't the user end up with a very, very small unformatted drive mounted
[17:23:56] <vectory> no, just depends on what the usb device tell the user, his os will believe, i guess
[17:24:47] <vectory> quite clever idea, actually, drag and drop programming via explorer, whats bad about that?
[17:25:53] <vectory> human interface device class is more commonly used, right?
[17:25:58] <Jan-> There's a "miscellaneous" class
[17:26:05] <Jan-> but I'm not sure how that'd be exposed
[17:26:06] <Tom_itx> dammit
[17:26:29] <Kevin`> vectory: the os automatically adds some metadata file to the disk, the bootloader programs it as firmware, disconnects causing corruption and annoying infinite copies of the disk drive, reconnects, and the os uploads a new metadata file to the disk
[17:27:43] <Jan-> um, er
[17:28:31] <vectory> Kevin`: well i imgined there would be some way for the usb device to interpret and deal with incomming data, maybe but less likely discarding metadata for example
[17:29:18] <Kevin`> vectory: even it works "perfectly" you still end with developers doing stupid things like disconnecting the drive when a file is copied do it
[17:29:42] <vectory> pebcak
[17:29:50] <Kevin`> vectory: or not completely implementing a block device, so some filesystem implementations break the device's storage
[17:30:16] <vectory> oh ok, thats where it gets really complicated
[17:30:40] <Jan-> how the hell do you 'Implement a block device'
[17:30:51] <Jan-> I guess this requires much reading of USB documentation for that device class
[17:31:04] <Kevin`> Jan-: to do it properly, you waste a lot of extra flash space for a read/write area the same size as the disk
[17:31:15] <Jan-> that was my thought
[17:31:31] <Kevin`> actually doing it isn't that hard, lufa has example code for mass storage
[17:31:33] <Jan-> if you tell the OS it's a mass storage device, won't the OS try to... write... to it
[17:31:42] <Kevin`> you'll also need a filesystem driver on the microcontroller though
[17:31:51] <Jan-> well sure
[17:31:55] <Jan-> otherwise you can't read what's been written
[17:31:57] <Kevin`> Jan-: yes, it will, and you have to let the os write to any part of it
[17:32:06] <Kevin`> even if it's not your intended firmware/config location
[17:32:11] <vectory> cant the device be protected from formating, like old floppies?
[17:32:26] <Kevin`> vectory: that would make it useless for firmware or config updates
[17:32:31] <Jan-> But you could define what your "disk size" was
[17:33:12] <Jan-> and map that to whatever in software
[17:33:36] <Kevin`> Jan-: sure, but you'll need more than twice the flash space to do it, plus extra filesystem libraries
[17:33:55] <Jan-> and this gets you the ability to...
[17:34:01] <Jan-> ...dragndrop a config file to the device?
[17:34:07] <Kevin`> right
[17:34:11] * Jan- winces
[17:34:15] <Jan-> Sounds like a bit of a kludge
[17:34:19] <OndraSter> guys, any simple way to clean out your lungs?
[17:34:28] <OndraSter> I was desoldering board from Acer laptop
[17:34:31] <OndraSter> no idea what they make it from
[17:34:34] <OndraSter> but it smelled terribly
[17:34:56] <Kevin`> Jan-: you could also use mtp instead of a block device, but windows may want to treat those as mediaplayercenterzune-only devices instead of opening explorer, i'm not sure how it behaves
[17:36:25] <vectory> OndraSter: inhaling over a water bath with herbs?
[17:37:00] <OndraSter> I said simple :D
[17:37:05] <Kevin`> OndraSter: do nothing, it'll fix itself
[17:37:08] <vectory> like thymian or camilla. quite simple
[17:37:45] <vectory> camomile*?
[17:37:50] <OndraSter> not sure if they grow in winter
[17:40:05] <vectory> key is the ethereal oils
[17:40:30] <vectory> maybe eat some wazabi until the snot runs down your nose
[17:40:44] <vectory> now im talking smack xD
[17:42:51] <Kevin`> that sort of thing might actually be a good idea
[17:43:05] <Kevin`> or more preferably cook something with hot in it
[17:43:42] <vectory> not sure itll reach the lungs if you just eat it
[17:44:03] <Kevin`> it sure works on me
[17:45:11] <OndraSter> haha if you eat it
[17:45:23] <OndraSter> eat smth is a good idea
[17:45:27] <OndraSter> but it is 0036
[17:45:38] <OndraSter> I will get fat(tier) than I am now :P
[17:45:45] <Jan-> I'm falling alseep
[17:45:46] <vectory> same here and i just finished dinner
[17:45:48] * Jan- nods forward
[17:46:10] <vectory> i should go to sleep, but so much to, so much to do
[17:46:43] <Jan-> yeah
[17:47:08] <vectory> like sorting paperwork, FUN
[17:47:18] <Jan-> Ooh :/
[17:47:53] * Jan- offers vectory a cupcake
[17:48:31] <vectory> ooh desert, thanx
[17:53:39] <OndraSter> why women dislike (or are not interested) in geeks and nerds? :(
[17:53:42] <OndraSter> I feel lonely :D
[17:54:47] <Steffann> poor you
[17:54:50] <Jan-> We're both terrible geeks :)
[18:02:46] <OndraSter> omg, the smell I thought that is from the board is actually something else
[18:02:52] <OndraSter> my sister got piano
[18:02:53] <OndraSter> some old
[18:02:56] <OndraSter> and it smells
[18:03:03] <OndraSter> quite similar to the flux from the board
[18:03:41] <Steffann> lol
[18:03:54] <OndraSter> rosin..
[18:04:15] <OndraSter> they had to put it in my sleeping room because it was heavy
[18:06:24] <vectory> yikes
[18:06:33] <Jan-> This situation with talking to USB devices sucks
[18:07:39] <vectory> why, when there is lufa?
[18:08:14] <Jan-> I mean, you have to have the AVR be a serial-over-USB device
[18:08:29] <Jan-> which means requiring your user to install a third party driver on their PC
[18:09:41] <vectory> you dont _have_ to on linux :)
[18:10:21] <Jan-> nobody uses linux, vector
[18:10:32] <vectory> oh, call me nobody
[18:11:05] <vectory> and all our friends over at #ubuntu :)
[18:11:32] <Jan-> you can't sell a hardware device on the assumption everyone who uses it will use linux
[18:11:32] <Steffann> ubuntu ...
[18:12:06] <vectory> ubuntu is just a debian with linient licensing, as of late with crazy devs too
[18:12:15] <vectory> *lenient
[18:12:27] <Steffann> And it breaks every new release :P
[18:12:33] <bronson_> ubu was pretty rad back in the late 2000s... Debian WITH drivers.
[18:12:38] <vectory> thats to do with the crazy devs
[18:12:44] <bronson_> now, though, yeah... they've flipped out pretty bad.
[18:13:41] <vectory> Jan-: the driver isnt much more than an inf with some info, telling windows, that the device is of the cdc class afaict, whos the manufacturer and you can supply i yourself
[18:14:08] <vectory> e.g. atmel has some example that you could adopt and provide first hand
[18:14:29] <Jan-> that might work
[18:14:39] <Jan-> I'd prefer to write my windows code in C#, though
[18:14:47] <Jan-> if you have a serial port, it just works easily
[18:15:01] <Jan-> otherwise ou'd presumably have to drill right down and implement your own USB driver
[18:15:08] <Jan-> and I'm not sure how deep into USB you can get in .nety
[18:16:01] <vectory> well, i have no idea
[18:16:26] <Jan-> http://www.developerfusion.com/article/84338/making-usb-c-friendly/
[18:16:28] <vectory> the first time i tried installing a driver for rikusw's programmer, it didnt work, because the driver wasnt configured for amd x64 cpus, lol
[18:16:45] <Jan-> well that's not a concern with C#, the .net runtime deals with all that stuff
[18:16:55] <Jan-> which is handy
[18:18:34] <Jan-> I assume if I'm making an AVR be a USB device, I can set what its vendor and device IDs will be
[18:19:00] <Steffann> You can.. it's not allowed afaik, but you can do it :)
[18:19:57] <bronson_> you can do it, you just can't distribute/sell it
[18:20:12] <Jan-> oh
[18:20:23] <Jan-> so to be legal it'd have a device and vendor ID that says it's an atmel avr
[18:20:46] <Jan-> ...that being the case how do I identify my device? the long pid string?
[18:26:00] <OndraSter> long?
[18:26:05] <OndraSter> both vid and pid are 16bit
[18:29:08] <Jan-> this is the identifying information for a USB device:
http://pastebin.com/zF8jEj5R
[18:29:17] <Jan-> which bit of that do I get to set, to identify the device I've made?
[18:38:45] <DanFrederiksen> how does a TVS diode work? above a certain voltage is just starts draining current? exactly like a zener? but able to take a beating
[18:41:36] <DanFrederiksen> sorry wrong channel : ))
[20:00:00] <rue_mohr> a tunnel tiode?
[20:00:08] <rue_mohr> man I hate this keybaord
[20:00:13] <rue_mohr> a tunnel diode?
[20:01:30] * Tom_itx blames the fingers on top of it
[20:02:42] <OndraSter> PIN diodes?
[20:02:57] <OndraSter> gn
[20:19:39] <dirty_d> hrrm, asm fail
[20:19:50] <dirty_d> anyone know what im trying to do here? ...
[20:20:23] <dirty_d> __asm volatile("mov r24, 0xD8\n" "mov r25, 0x01\n" "out 0x0034, r24\n" "out 0x0040, r25\n" : : : "r24", "r25");
[20:21:49] <Casper> why use asm?
[20:22:56] <dirty_d> i guess my compiler isnt doing all that in less than 4 clock cycles
[20:23:14] <Casper> what are you trying to do?
[20:23:19] <ziph> And why aren't you using automatic register selection in your inline assembler?
[20:24:30] <dirty_d> ziph, because i dont knwo ehat that is
[20:24:31] <inflex> oooh nice
[20:24:42] <inflex> these E14 sourced FTDI 3.3V USB-TTL cables work good
[20:24:45] <inflex> and only $14
[20:24:58] <inflex> [1190601.090426] ftdi_sio 2-5:1.0: FTDI USB Serial Device converter detected
[20:24:58] <inflex> [1190601.090487] usb 2-5: Detected FT232RL
[20:25:01] <dirty_d> Casper, set the clock source
[20:25:54] <ziph> That needs to happen in 4 clock cycles when using unoptimised code?
[20:26:01] <Casper> isn't there already a macro for that?
[20:28:54] <dirty_d> there is for mega, not sure about xmega
[20:29:37] <Casper> btw, are you saving the content of those 2 registers before you write to them?
[20:30:42] <ziph> They're in the clobber list, so yes,
[20:33:10] <dirty_d> hmm well im confused as hell
[20:33:34] <dirty_d> when i compile the c code, it uses OUT to write to CCP and STS to write to CLK_CTRL
[20:37:17] <Tom_itx> inflex what's up?
[20:37:56] <inflex> Tom_itx: just using this FT232 cable to finish up a product
[20:38:12] <inflex> Tom_itx: need to change the TTL/digital header though, it's a 6x1 0.1", I only need 3x1
[20:38:38] <dirty_d> hmm, still doesnt work
[20:39:04] <Tom_itx> inflex, you have time to try something for me?
[20:39:16] <inflex> Tom_itx: dependson what it is... not near my usual workshop PC
[20:39:17] <ziph> dirty_d: OUT doesn't work on addresses >= 0x40
[20:39:42] <ziph> dirty_d: There aren't enough bits in the instruction encoding for it.
[20:44:28] <dirty_d> yea figured that out
[20:48:52] <Tom_itx> inflex,
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[20:48:55] <Tom_itx> at the bottom
[20:49:09] <inflex> tx
[20:49:22] <Tom_itx> no rush
[20:52:56] <dirty_d> alright it works now
[20:53:02] <dirty_d> arrrrrg
[20:54:33] * Tom_itx sits down and stirs the pot
[21:24:22] <Sgt_Lemming> off to the space, later all
[22:10:14] <learningc> anyone done high speed design here?
[22:12:30] <mog> learningc, how high speed?
[22:14:11] <learningc> at least 400MHz
[22:14:21] <learningc> perhaps in the 700MHz
[22:15:19] <learningc> I'm looking for some tips, info, documentation, etc, something to start with
[22:15:55] <mog> nope nothing that fast
[22:15:59] <Casper> learningc: don't do sharp bend?
[22:16:12] <Casper> don't use square 90 degrees?
[22:16:35] <Casper> watch out for parallel bus lines so they stay the same length?
[22:16:47] <Tom_itx> 4 layer min
[22:16:55] <Tom_itx> for noise
[22:17:00] <learningc> ok
[22:17:18] <Tom_itx> you gotta really watch impedance on the pcb
[22:17:33] <learningc> Tom_itx: you have done high speed design?
[22:17:40] <Tom_itx> no
[22:17:51] <Tom_itx> but i've heard ppl talk about it
[22:18:00] <learningc> ah ok
[22:18:03] <Tom_itx> you gotta be real picky
[22:18:16] <learningc> picky on what exactly?
[22:18:23] <Tom_itx> all of it
[22:18:30] <Tom_itx> trace length
[22:18:32] <Tom_itx> placement
[22:18:32] <Tom_itx> etc
[22:18:41] <learningc> trace width?
[22:19:15] <Tom_itx> i don't have any good links on high freq board design
[22:19:15] <learningc> and why 4 layers+?
[22:19:28] <Tom_itx> for better ground plane
[22:19:38] <Tom_itx> for noise
[22:19:57] <Casper> learningc: still looking :(
[22:20:11] <learningc> so 1 layer dedicated for ground and 1 layer dedicated for power?
[22:20:12] <Tom_itx> keep the power and gnd on layers and the signals on the others
[22:20:38] <Tom_itx> and all the normal routing tips apply
[22:20:43] <Tom_itx> star gnd etc
[22:20:58] <learningc> what is star ground?
[22:21:21] <Tom_itx> instead of point to point to point, the traces all come back to one point from each chip
[22:22:46] <learningc> ah, for example, ground to chip1_gnd and ground to chip2_gnd?
[22:22:58] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:23:21] <learningc> what are the other routing tips?
[22:23:51] <learningc> Casper: thanks
[22:27:15] <Casper> learningc: any idea for a job? :D
[22:27:51] <learningc> also suppose it's 4 layers in that order 1-2-3-4 should I place gnd and power on 1 and 4 respectively or 2 and 3?
[22:28:09] <learningc> Casper: still thinking about it :/
[22:28:21] <Casper> think faster! :D hehe
[22:29:17] <learningc> Casper: you used to repair things, right?
[22:29:39] <Casper> yes?
[22:29:57] <learningc> I men you were a video repairer tech before?
[22:30:02] <learningc> mean*
[22:30:12] <Casper> no
[22:30:15] <Casper> just did the course
[22:30:19] <Tom_itx> http://www.nexlogic.com/pb-free/pb-free-tips.aspx
[22:30:24] <Casper> couln'T find a job in that field locally
[22:30:27] <Tom_itx> you might get some ideas there
[22:30:35] <Tom_itx> a few links there
[22:30:42] <learningc> Tom_itx: thanks a lot
[22:31:15] <Tom_itx> any board house would likely offer a few tips too
[22:31:45] <Tom_itx> http://www.corelis.com/education/Tips_DFT_Considerations_Board_Level_Design.htm#PCBlayoutconsiderations
[22:32:26] <Tom_itx> you just learn things as you go along
[22:33:01] <Tom_itx> http://www.smps.us/layout.html
[22:33:44] <Tom_itx> that looks decent although not targeted for high speed
[22:34:05] <learningc> thanks, those are good links
[22:34:59] <Tom_itx> you ever see a board with vias that appear to go nowhere?
[22:35:08] <Tom_itx> they help distribute the gnd plane
[22:36:05] <learningc> Tom_itx: yes, the vias go to another layer(s) inside
[22:36:31] <Tom_itx> or just connect the gnd plane to help with impedance
[22:37:17] <learningc> impedance as in impedance matching or to reduce impedance by reducing length?
[22:37:28] <Tom_itx> both
[22:38:18] <learningc> so where should the ground plane and power plane be? outside layers or middle layers?
[22:38:29] <Tom_itx> Points 1 2 and 3 in that last link
[22:38:39] <Tom_itx> read that page
[22:39:04] <Tom_itx> http://www.smps.us/layout.html
[22:39:06] <Tom_itx> that one
[22:40:19] <Tom_itx> the article is about making smps supplies but the principles apply
[22:41:33] <learningc> what is the difference between power ground and control ground?
[22:41:37] <Tom_itx> keep in mind you will go thru min 3 designs before you're happy
[22:41:53] <Tom_itx> and probably more than that
[22:42:06] <Tom_itx> ask inflex
[22:42:54] <learningc> inflex does high speed?
[22:43:10] <Tom_itx> no but he makes alot of boards
[22:43:49] <learningc> mog: how fast do you design with?
[22:44:59] <Tom_itx> http://www.cst.com/Content/Applications/Markets/MWandRF.aspx
[22:45:18] <Tom_itx> they're selling something but you might get some tips there
[22:46:15] <learningc> I wonder if I should start using ADS for doing high speed board?
[22:46:28] <Tom_itx> also ask later because i know there are guys here that have done it
[22:47:03] <Tom_itx> what are you making?
[22:48:03] <inflex> what?
[22:48:06] <inflex> what am I being asked?
[22:48:22] <Tom_itx> he want's tips on high frequency board layout
[22:48:29] <Tom_itx> 400+ Mhz
[22:48:34] <inflex> oh hell....
[22:48:35] <learningc> Tom_itx: high speed uC board
[22:48:48] <inflex> 400MHz is fairly serious - I'm out.
[22:48:55] <learningc> I'll perhaps go with TI omap
[22:49:33] <learningc> inflex: how fast did you design?
[22:50:20] <Tom_itx> have you ever done a board?
[22:50:47] <learningc> Tom_itx: yes
[22:50:54] <Tom_itx> k
[22:50:59] <Tom_itx> you never know :)
[22:54:38] <Tom_itx> inflex, what's your command line for say an m168?
[22:54:54] <Tom_itx> i may have dude here somewhere
[22:57:54] <learningc> m168?
[22:58:05] <Tom_itx> atmega168
[22:58:11] <learningc> ah
[22:58:19] <Tom_itx> i'm just doing some testing
[22:58:22] <learningc> that 20mhz?
[23:01:37] <Tom_itx> oh i found it, nevermind
[23:03:31] <Tom_itx> meh, i don't have libusb installed dammit!
