#avr | Logs for 2012-02-04

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[01:37:50] <orated> Hello! For usbasp, what should be size of SMD components?
[01:39:30] <rue_mohr> haha I'm on 4.3.5
[01:40:09] <orated> ?
[02:46:40] <OndraSter> mornin
[02:47:32] <OndraSter> ZOMG ATMEL WEBSITE DOESN'T WORK
[02:47:32] <OndraSter> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8006.pdf
[02:50:26] <OndraSter> and mirrors don't know that 44 != 44a :(
[02:51:33] <OndraSter> what is the difference between 44 and 44a... clock?
[03:05:00] <OndraSter> duh, no debugging in atmega8a
[03:05:03] <OndraSter> only ISP
[03:19:49] <grummund> http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc8006.pdf
[03:22:43] <OndraSter> changed address?
[03:23:13] <OndraSter> everyone is referring to the prod_documents/...pdf
[03:29:09] <RikusW> rue_mohr: tobbor is gone again...
[04:35:29] <Jan-> hihi
[04:35:36] * Jan- enters, leaving a sluglike trail of infective goop
[04:35:38] <Jan-> *sneeze*
[04:35:42] <OndraSter> eya
[04:36:36] <Jan-> oh look
[04:36:38] <Jan-> it's abcminiuser
[04:36:38] * amee2k discretely puts on a bright orange hazmat suit
[04:36:46] <amee2k> la-la-la \o/
[04:36:48] * Jan- is not hazmat!
[04:36:51] * Jan- is biohazard!
[04:37:05] <amee2k> hehe
[04:37:28] <OndraSter> abcminiuser_, why don't you want to sell your chips?
[04:37:30] <OndraSter> they cost a fortune :P
[04:37:32] <amee2k> orange biohazard suits were out of stock :(
[04:37:37] <OndraSter> like 4 years ago the prices went up
[04:50:35] <grummund> <bronson> TIMSK0 &= ~(1 << TOIE0); correctly produces lds andi sts
[04:51:00] <grummund> agh, he gone.
[05:01:31] * Jan- rings a bell
[05:01:34] <Jan-> Unclean! Unclean!
[05:07:18] <CapnKernel> Jan- is showboating
[05:07:36] <Jan-> Well, I'm fishing for sympathy
[05:07:40] <Jan-> and I'd DO IT AGAIN
[05:07:45] <Jan-> Anyone who feels this awful should get props :(
[05:10:58] * ureif throws Jan- into the blades of a C-35
[05:11:15] <Jan-> Aaargh!
[05:15:58] * Jan- searches for steffans Y and Z
[05:17:33] <Steffanx> :P
[05:17:58] <Jan-> Clones! They must be CLONES
[05:19:12] <Jan-> Oh god, they're talking about making a sequel to Blade Runner
[05:19:14] <Jan-> aaargh
[05:19:25] * Jan- rocks back and forth, hugging her knees, and mumbles about "the horror"
[05:19:41] <Steffanx> Have fun
[05:19:55] <Jan-> the horror
[05:19:57] <Jan-> THE HORROR
[05:36:46] * amee2k idly puts on a jumpsuit and jumps around the channel
[05:36:47] <amee2k> \o/
[05:37:11] <Steffanx> Something to celebrate?
[05:37:22] <ureif> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlrnfV0WvCc#t=22s
[05:37:24] <amee2k> boredom?
[05:37:29] <amee2k> >_>
[05:37:40] <amee2k> not really
[05:37:42] <Steffanx> Don't you have enough projects you should finish?
[05:38:03] <amee2k> lol
[05:38:14] <amee2k> doing some conceptual work for the project of a good friend of mine to take my mind off all this assembly crap
[05:38:44] * amee2k loves overengineering other people's projects :)
[05:47:59] * amee2k idly enlarges abcminiuser slightly
[05:48:03] <amee2k> there ya go. yer abcmidiuser now :)
[05:49:11] <Jan-> Hey, I have a project you could help out with :)
[05:49:22] * amee2k possibly had too much coffee this morning >_>
[05:49:28] <Jan-> It's the first project I want to do when I finally get an AVR development environment sorted out
[05:49:38] <amee2k> hehe
[05:49:42] <amee2k> whats it about?
[05:49:47] <abcminiuser> amee2k, I'm afraid to ask for the context here...
[05:49:58] <Jan-> It's a blinking light. Seriously - it's a carefully-timed blinking light
[05:49:58] <amee2k> LOL
[05:50:05] <Jan-> but hey, people tell me to make a light flash first :)
[05:50:22] <abcminiuser> Jan-, hardware time, CTC interrupt
[05:50:32] <amee2k> mmh, what kind of light?
[05:50:39] <Jan-> ctc?
[05:50:40] <amee2k> 500W halogen floodlight?
[05:50:44] <abcminiuser> In fact, you're in luck, see my timers tutorial here: http://fourwalledcubicle.com/AVRArticles.php
[05:50:44] <Jan-> LEDs, probably
[05:50:49] <amee2k> Clear Timer on Compare match
[05:50:59] <abcminiuser> It covers the basic timer hardware modes
[05:51:04] <Jan-> Here's the application: lots of electronic moving picture cameras use rolling shutters.
[05:51:06] <abcminiuser> In sexy LaTeX form
[05:51:20] <Jan-> This means that very brief period illumination, like xenon strobes, can produce an effect where only part of the frame is illuminated.
[05:51:34] <Jan-> Similar problems exist for stuff like flashing fluorescent tubes, which have a very sharp rise/fall time, and gunfire
[05:51:51] <amee2k> mmh yeah, you get this flickering effect like when a tv camera is pointed at a TV screen
[05:52:03] <Jan-> The idea is to produce a strobe light which you can manally slip into sync with the camera with advance/retard timing buttons.
[05:52:06] <amee2k> just on a spot, not an area
[05:52:46] <amee2k> Jan-: how about giving it a composite video in and let it sync to max brightness with a PLL? >_>
[05:53:21] <amee2k> strip the color carrier with a filter, then average out the rest by low-passing
[05:53:31] <Jan-> Here's the issue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_9FhAlxi4
[05:53:41] <Jan-> I can't see the video but from the title I'm guessing that's a demo of the issue
[05:53:57] <Jan-> Now, some of these cameras are known not to have any video output that actually syncs with their sensor refresh.
[05:54:12] <Jan-> So in some circumstances a sync pulse may be available but in others is it not and that's why it needs to have manual phase adjust buttons.
[05:54:38] <amee2k> yeah, some dude points a camera at a white surface, then fires a strobe at the surface
[05:54:55] <Jan-> honestly you'd probably only have to illuminate some object to get a reasonable enough idea
[05:54:56] <Jan-> but anyway
[05:55:05] <Jan-> it's just a timed strobe with very fine phase adjustment
[05:55:06] <amee2k> you see frames where the shutter only catches half a flash and the lower or upper half of the picture is illuminated only
[05:55:12] <Jan-> amee2k: exactly
[05:55:31] <Jan-> The hope is that with the avr using a crystal timebase, it would stay in sync for a reasonable amount of time, enough for one take, or whatever.
[05:55:54] <amee2k> sort of like old DOS games where the video buffer is updated while the video card is rendering it to the monitor lol
[05:56:01] <Jan-> I guess
[05:56:17] <Jan-> I have no idea how practical this idea is
[05:56:39] <amee2k> i have no idea how much the timebases in video cameras drift
[05:56:47] <Jan-> Oh the one in the camera shouldn't drift at all
[05:56:58] <Jan-> at least to normal "crystal sync" sort of accuracy
[05:57:10] <amee2k> there are no perfectly sharp edges >_>
[05:57:22] <Jan-> what d'you mean
[05:57:29] <amee2k> everything has a slew rate, and everything drifts. the important question is how much >_>
[05:57:51] <Jan-> I'm guessing that the camera may actually use more careful temperature compensated timebase than an average avr circuit
[05:58:03] <Jan-> which will presumably drift quite a bit with temp
[05:58:26] <amee2k> you can make a ghetto temperature control circuit for the crystal
[05:58:28] <Jan-> anyway, the expectation is only that it will remain reasonably in sync for a matter of probably a minute or less.
[05:58:55] <Jan-> and remember the duty cycle of the camera is 50% normally, so it only has to be sure to illuminate the entirety of one frame
[05:59:09] <Jan-> it just has to ensure to switch on or off in the 50% inactive period.
[05:59:26] <Jan-> I don't know anything about AVR really but it seemed to me that this ought to be doable.
[05:59:34] <amee2k> hmm i think i've seen that one on the Genesis SDR board... they stick a TO220 power transistor on the xtal and a small TO92 analog temperature sensor. then use a dual opamp to drive the power transistor and stabilize the xtal temperature within a few degrees
[05:59:53] <Jan-> yeah well I want to avoid analog design
[05:59:54] <Jan-> it's a bitch
[06:00:31] <amee2k> the opamp circuit was pretty dead simple with proportional control only
[06:00:51] <Jan-> yeah yeah yeah
[06:00:54] * Jan- has heard that before
[06:01:00] <amee2k> :P
[06:01:17] <Jan-> Anyway right now I'm stuck because my PC doesn't have an RS232 port so I can't have a potential avr development board send me information.
[06:01:41] * CapnKernel offered to help, but got dissed.
[06:01:52] <Jan-> You did?!
[06:02:00] <amee2k> aah, assholes. they only have the assembly manual as PDF anymore
[06:03:04] <Jan-> what did I say
[06:03:53] <amee2k> aah, here it is. you'll need someone to describe the pictures though because there is very little text on it :/ http://www.genesisradio.com.au/G59/phase11.html
[06:04:03] <Jan-> did I make a trenchant observation about being called Captain Colonel?
[06:04:14] <Jan-> What next, MajorGeneral?
[06:04:22] <Steffanx> Something wrong with PDF amee2k ?
[06:04:22] <amee2k> they used to have a more elaborate description of the circuit iirc
[06:06:27] <amee2k> Jan-: i think you did >_>
[06:06:50] <Jan-> Oh freep
[06:07:07] <amee2k> but i don't think i made the "CapnKennel" pun yet >_>
[06:07:13] <Jan-> hur hur
[06:07:33] * amee2k has a baaad baaad habit of poking fun at other people's nicknames
[06:07:39] * Jan- too
[06:07:46] <amee2k> :)
[06:08:09] <Jan-> In any case if anyone can tell me what I did I shall send CapnKernel flowers by interflora immediately, otherwise I have little choice but to overlook the matter pro tem
[06:08:28] <Jan-> also I am reminded of my InterBeer idea.
[06:08:31] <Jan-> Like InterFlora.
[06:08:33] <Jan-> Only for beer.
[06:08:38] <amee2k> o.O
[06:08:58] * amee2k idly wonders if interflora carries ganja...
[06:09:01] <Jan-> InterFlora is a network of flower delivery places, mostly independently run, in lots of countries
[06:09:07] <Jan-> so you can send anyone flowers from across the world, right?
[06:09:37] <Jan-> I thought that nerds like us would make better use of InterBeer, then if someone helped you on the internet, you could send them beer!
[06:09:51] <amee2k> yuck
[06:10:10] <amee2k> if i had to drink beer in exchange i'd stop helping people :P
[06:10:23] <Jan-> Well, most people like beer
[06:10:27] <amee2k> InterPizza ftw
[06:10:36] <Jan-> Hey you could probably do that anyway
[06:10:57] <amee2k> \o/
[06:11:08] <Jan-> You'd have to be willing to give me your address though
[06:11:41] <amee2k> i vaguely remember a story (that probably is an urban legend, but still) about a dude who ordered pizza online
[06:11:54] <Steffanx> amee2k .. sometimes lt spice is pretty annoying. Especially when it makes 1m from 1M .. a nice milliohm resistor when you think you used a megaohm :(
[06:12:05] <amee2k> i don't remember who was where exactly, but either he was in the US and the pizza place in australia, or vice versa
[06:12:32] <Jan-> I don't think my local Pizza Hut will deliver via 747 for £9.99
[06:12:38] <amee2k> they did deliver the pizza and it was still warm. just took a while >_>
[06:12:52] <amee2k> but there was something about the bill afterwards >_>
[06:12:57] <Jan-> well yes
[06:13:23] <Jan-> is this channel publicly logged
[06:14:23] <Steffanx> Yes
[06:14:25] <Steffanx> zlog
[06:14:30] <amee2k> Steffanx: thats why i only use the "k" prefix in ltspice. writing 1M as 1000k is a bit odd but i find ltspice's case-agnosticism is even more odd
[06:14:47] <amee2k> at least to *nix people anyway. DOS fans will probably find it rather intuitive
[06:19:21] <Jan-> and I *STIIIILLLL* need to find an RS232 converter that doesn't suck dog's cocks!@
[06:19:23] <Jan-> waaah
[06:19:25] * Jan- waves her arms
[06:19:28] <Jan-> HOW IS THIS SO HARD
[06:20:19] <amee2k> all the ones i've seen only sucked donkey balls *shrug*
[06:20:28] <Jan-> yeah yeah yeah
[06:21:31] <Steffanx> "don't fit my needs" != "sucked donkey balls" amee2k
[06:21:57] <Jan-> Yes but selling something as an RS232 dongle which doesn't actually emit the proper voltages makes it "not actually an RS232 dongle"
[06:22:03] <amee2k> Steffanx: whats that got to do with anything?
[06:22:09] <amee2k> i don't need one
[06:22:30] <amee2k> Jan-: well, it makes it a "chinese RS232 dongle"
[06:22:45] <Jan-> why don't they just include a max-232 chip?
[06:22:48] <Jan-> I hear they're super-easy to use
[06:22:53] <Steffanx> I mean.. all the one I used worked amee2k .. (maybe with some driver hassle)
[06:23:06] <amee2k> because it costs 3$ for a proper one, and 30 cent for a cheap clone
[06:23:18] <Jan-> I'll happily pay!
[06:23:33] <amee2k> well, they don't
[06:23:35] <Jan-> Look, can we just make an adaptor circuit to go in this wrong one to make it be right, using an RS232
[06:23:38] <amee2k> they only want your 3$
[06:23:39] <Jan-> ...converter chip?
[06:23:49] <amee2k> welcome to china. thats industry quality for ya.
[06:24:06] <Jan-> so what do I do?
[06:24:09] <Jan-> where do I get a proper one?
[06:24:26] <amee2k> pay more $$$ for an industrial quality one
[06:24:44] <amee2k> roll your own RS232 dongle from scratch
[06:24:48] <Jan-> OK sure but there's dozens of them
[06:24:55] <Jan-> and most are cheap
[06:24:58] <amee2k> use a 3$ chinese dongle with your own MAX232 board
[06:25:05] <ziph> Get an FTDI one.
[06:25:18] <Jan-> how? where from?
[06:25:28] <Jan-> many of them advertise " Prolific PL2303 chipset"
[06:25:39] <Jan-> I'm pretty sure that's the chipset used by the wrong one we bought
[06:25:42] <amee2k> http://www.moxa.com/product/UPort_1410.htm
[06:25:46] <ziph> What country are you in?
[06:25:49] <Jan-> UK
[06:26:02] <amee2k> something in that general direction should be likely to have proper voltage levels
[06:26:07] <nevdull> Jan-: i use the USB BUB http://shop.moderndevice.com/products/bub_ii
[06:26:29] <Jan-> nevdull: looks OK
[06:27:01] <nevdull> it's cheap enough and small and can deliver 5v or 3.3v to your board
[06:28:26] <ziph> Jan-: http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2031+203003&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=ftdi+rs232&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial
[06:28:40] <ziph> Jan-: No idea why they're in that category.
[06:29:54] <Jan-> farnell? aargh, that's going to be expneisve
[06:30:06] <Jan-> also I'd rather support a little outfit like moderndevice.com
[06:30:32] <ziph> There's a lot of places with the adapters made by FTDI.
[06:31:34] <amee2k> Jan-: i'm not into video/audio recording, but does the camera you want to use this with by chance have that kind of sync output to link to a tape recorder?
[06:32:04] <amee2k> i can't find the name for that but on large sets all recording stuff is usually synced to one master device that provides a clock output to sync the rest
[06:32:07] <Jan-> Some of them may, but many, especially the cheap ones, don't.
[06:32:13] <amee2k> so audio and video tracks don't slowly drift apart
[06:32:30] <Jan-> Yes we're also looking at much more complex devices to handle timecode, which is what you're talking about
[06:32:49] <Jan-> but many productions don't use that technology so it's nice to have something you can manually slip into phase with no outside requirements.
[06:33:01] <amee2k> hmm i see
[06:33:10] <Jan-> for instance the canon 5D mark 2 stills camera shoots video, but its composite output is not synced to its sensor
[06:33:18] <Jan-> there are doubled and tripled frames depending on the selected frame rate
[06:33:33] <amee2k> i see
[06:34:17] <Jan-> a friend of ours tried to use one on a motion control rig
[06:34:22] <amee2k> i have no idea if this would work open-loop, really. i'd just put some bright LEDs on an AVR and try syncing it, then see how much it drifts
[06:34:25] <Jan-> which is a big robot used to do precision repeatable camera moves
[06:34:33] <Jan-> and he found that the composite sync was basically bullshit
[06:34:40] <Jan-> so that's the situation.
[06:34:40] <amee2k> ouch!
[06:35:10] <Jan-> This is actually an extension of a feature on some 35mm motion picture film cameras, where you can "phase in" at the start of the take, to remove the roll bar from CRT video displays.
[06:35:17] <Jan-> So the approach does "work" on that basis.
[06:35:42] <amee2k> i'd expect that the timing will drift visible after a few seconds, unless you specifically get a camera with precision timing or something
[06:36:22] <Jan-> the camera will have timing at least as good as the crystal on an AVR
[06:37:25] <amee2k> then the avr is going to be the weak link, but it *will* drift and i'd say it will drift quickly
[06:38:23] <Jan-> well the ones I have will accept a clock up to 20mhz
[06:38:40] <amee2k> but as i said i'm not into recording and i'd have to give it a try to see
[06:38:50] <Jan-> so if I can alter the timing in increments of one clock cycle (can I do that?) then the maximum drift should be less than one twenty millionth of a second
[06:39:00] <Jan-> Which is about one eight hundred thousandth of a frame, or so
[06:39:20] <Jan-> or like 1/200 of a pixel
[06:39:48] <amee2k> i'm with whoever brought up CTC timer mode earlier
[06:40:00] <CapnKernel> Jan-: Can you tell me again what didn't work with the PL2303?
[06:40:07] <Jan-> voltage levels wrong
[06:40:38] <Jan-> and yes in theory I guess we could jack a max232 chip onto it and make it right
[06:41:00] <Jan-> but that's too many points of failure for me, when I'm totally new to avr anyway
[06:41:07] <Jan-> I don't need more places it can be wrong, if you see what I mean
[06:41:10] <amee2k> or fast pwm... some parts have timers that allow using one of the OCR registers to set the TOP value in fast-pwm mode!
[06:41:26] <CapnKernel> The other day I recommended a particular adaptor from DealExtreme, and several others recommended more local options.
[06:41:31] <amee2k> use OCRxB for driving the LED, and OCRxA for setting TOP on the counter
[06:41:46] <amee2k> varying TOP/OCRxA sill set the frequency then
[06:41:51] <CapnKernel> Those adaptors have USB at one end, and TTL-level serial at the other, which is exactly what your CPU needs
[06:42:24] <amee2k> and you'd have to find a clever way to make the counter "skip" a clock, and freeze it for a clock to adjust the phase sync
[06:42:27] <Jan-> I bought an adaptor from Tom_itx which gives me "proper serial"
[06:42:48] <Jan-> don't the counters have a compare value, that I could increment to increase timing or decrement to decrease timing?
[06:43:00] <Jan-> and can that be done in increments of one clock?
[06:43:20] <amee2k> the compare value will determine the frequency, and with 1/1 prescaler it'll be adjustable in single clock cycles
[06:43:34] <Jan-> sounds OK
[06:43:36] <amee2k> the more interresting part is adjusting the phase sync glitch-free
[06:43:44] <Jan-> prescaler is a divider on the input to the timer I guess?
[06:43:49] <amee2k> yep
[06:43:53] <Jan-> ok
[06:43:58] <CapnKernel> Jan-: "Proper" serial is +/-12V, and is not what you want in this situation. What you want is "TTL-level" serial
[06:44:08] <amee2k> MCU clock -> prescaler -> timer clock
[06:44:14] <Jan-> CapnKernel: buuuut I bought a widget from Tom_itx to give me proper serial from the AVR.
[06:44:14] <CapnKernel> And as far as I know, what you bought from Tom is not a serial adaptor, but a programmer.
[06:44:21] <Jan-> nono, I bought a serial adaptor too
[06:44:59] <Jan-> it's a grey DB9 shell with a max232 chip inside it, and four pins connected to wires marked GND, +5V, ToTX and ToRX
[06:45:02] <amee2k> whats the range of frame rates you want to accomodate? 24-30fps?
[06:45:22] <CapnKernel> If it's using a max232, then it's not what you want.
[06:45:35] <CapnKernel> Unless your PC has a proper serial port, which you've said it doesn't.
[06:45:37] <Jan-> amee2k: maybe up to 60, or more, but that's optional
[06:45:49] <Jan-> CapnKernel: I'm anxious to *give* my PC a serial port
[06:45:52] <CapnKernel> Now, several people have showed you TTL-level serial adaptors, both from DX and locally
[06:45:53] <Jan-> that's what this is all about
[06:45:54] <CapnKernel> Why?
[06:46:04] <Jan-> because that's what I need to talk to the avr via Tom_itx's level shifter thing!
[06:46:25] * Jan- runs around in circles, waving her arms
[06:46:39] <amee2k> 12MHz xtal with 16bit timer and 1/8 prescaler gives a minimum output frequency of 22.8Hz
[06:46:48] <CapnKernel> Is it an option to GIVE UP Tom's adaptor?
[06:46:54] <Jan-> ....maybe?
[06:46:54] <CapnKernel> At the moment, it's causing more of a problem than it's solving
[06:46:58] <CapnKernel> (Much as I like Tom's stuff)
[06:47:31] <Jan-> but then I need a wierd-not-quite-RS232-but-not-what-I-already-have thing
[06:47:35] <amee2k> with the period adjustable in steps of 0.67us
[06:47:37] <Jan-> which is even harder to get
[06:48:03] <CapnKernel> Wierd is subjective. What you need is a TTL-level serial adaptor. Several people have given you links, but you choose to ignore them.
[06:48:15] <CapnKernel> Much more fun to runs around in circles, waving your arms, eh?
[06:48:31] <Jan-> Probably
[06:48:35] <Jan-> I have to go and eat lunch now
[06:48:40] <Jan-> which someone has kindly made for me
[06:48:46] <CapnKernel> The answer to your problem is within your grasp
[06:48:48] <Jan-> I will return shortly
[06:49:03] <amee2k> dual polarity RS232 needs to die in a fire
[06:49:13] <Jan-Lunch> I'm willing to bet that the ttl-level dealextreme thing doesn't have handy breadboard pins, does it
[06:49:31] <amee2k> "TTL level RS232" is nothing but the naked logic level UART output as far as signalling is concerned
[06:49:33] <CapnKernel> Cut off the phone header, strip the ends, and plug straight into your breadboard.
[06:49:51] <Jan-Lunch> well I can possiblyt get phil to do that
[06:50:03] <CapnKernel> We'll help you, it's very simple
[06:50:05] <Jan-Lunch> I'd rather get one of these usb bub II things
[06:50:09] <Jan-Lunch> then it'll just plug in
[06:50:10] <CapnKernel> Have a good lunch, I'm going for dinner
[06:50:11] <Jan-Lunch> an dwork
[06:50:12] <amee2k> so the "TTL level USB-to-RS232" adapters are really perfectly normal "USB UART" adapters
[06:50:18] <Jan-Lunch> anyway I must go
[06:50:20] <Jan-Lunch> I shall ask more later
[06:50:54] <amee2k> which is really what the FTDI chip is intended to do... be a USB UART, not an RS232 port
[06:52:00] <amee2k> i only use a MAX232 because i have a "real" serial port on my computer to use it with. other than that people should switch to logic level UART signalling, or RS485/422 for long range connections
[06:59:53] <keenerd> CapnKernel: And yesterday I gave links to PICe serial port cards, which I imagine would be higher quality than the USB ones. Oh well.
[07:16:02] <CapnKernel> Yeah. If she was desperate to have a real serial port. Mind you, I don't see the need, unless you have some black box device that speaks serial.
[07:16:22] <CapnKernel> Maybe it's more fun just to moan about it
[07:17:07] <CapnKernel> amee2k: I agree with what you're saying: World should either go to TTL-level, or RS485/422.
[07:17:36] <amee2k> i think there is some subtle misconception at work here, really... something that makes a MAX232 appear to do something more magical than just level shifting
[07:17:52] <amee2k> (which the max232 price is suggesting as well, much to my disapproval)
[07:18:06] <ziph> They do more than level shifting.
[07:18:28] <amee2k> something that i usually call "star trek style magic signal conversion" >_>
[07:19:21] <CapnKernel> ziph: oh?
[07:19:36] <ziph> They also do slew rate control and change the output/input Z.
[07:20:28] <ziph> Oh, and ESD protection.
[07:20:39] <CapnKernel> So given the suggested alternative of either TTL-level, or RS485/422, why and when would you want it?
[07:21:08] <amee2k> i don't think max232 does high-z
[07:22:12] <ziph> No, they don't.
[07:22:20] <ziph> Why do you ask?
[07:22:47] <amee2k> < ziph> [...] and change the output/input Z. << i didn't ask, but it was a reply to that line
[07:23:21] <amee2k> since 232 doesn't go very far anyway the impedance is pretty banana, as long as an accidential short doesn't kill the driver
[07:23:38] <ziph> By that I mean the input and output impedances are made to match the RS232 specification.
[07:24:46] <amee2k> ah, okay
[07:30:15] <CapnKernel> Which is only useful if you need to match something else doing the same thing. It's like both of you agreeing that you need to yell "la la la".
[07:30:33] <CapnKernel> If you control both ends, you can drop the whole "la la la" thing.
[07:30:49] <CapnKernel> And if you need things like distance or ESD, you have RS485/422
[07:32:23] <amee2k> (i.e. the important stuff)
[07:33:40] <CapnKernel> For jobs that require it, yes. But by quantity, the majority of stuff (for example, connecting to the console of your router) just doesn't need it
[07:34:33] <amee2k> yeah, TTL level works fine for most purposes that 232 had, really
[07:35:15] <amee2k> and if that doesn't fit the profile, 485/422 gives you a pretty simple but effective alternative
[07:43:00] <CapnKernel> That's the one
[07:43:13] <amee2k> is it edible?
[07:43:17] <CapnKernel> Anyone who says otherwise is selling chips :-)
[07:43:24] <CapnKernel> My dinner?
[07:43:25] <amee2k> indeed
[07:43:29] <amee2k> no, the one
[07:43:39] <CapnKernel> :-)
[07:43:42] <amee2k> >_>
[07:44:11] <amee2k> also, it would be somewhat ... unusual if your dinner wasn't edible
[07:49:45] <CapnKernel> My dinner was extraordinary.
[07:49:58] <CapnKernel> Cheap, very tasty, and enough of it.
[07:50:11] <amee2k> yeah, these are the best ones usually :)
[08:02:34] <amee2k> how much current can a single pin of a generic 0.1" header take safely on a continuous basis?
[08:08:46] <Jan-Lunch> Bleah
[08:08:51] <Jan-> OK
[08:09:03] * Jan- reappears, bloated with roast chicken and feeling a little more human
[08:09:31] <amee2k> 500mA per pin sound any reasonable?
[08:10:00] <Jan-> sounds like a lot
[08:10:06] <Jan-> what sort of pins are they
[08:10:27] <amee2k> http://www.futurlec.com/Pictures/HEADS.jpg << generic 0.1" pitch header pins like these
[08:10:37] <Jan-> Oh.
[08:10:47] <Jan-> they're normally rated for an amp or so, aren't they?
[08:10:50] <amee2k> looking around, there are some rated up to 3 amps, which sounds excessive for generic parts
[08:10:54] <Jan-> what does the datahseet say?
[08:11:14] <Jan-> and, CapnKernel, I did indeed look at pcie serial cards
[08:11:24] <Jan-> but none of them mentioned whether they'd have windows 7 drivers or not
[08:11:26] <amee2k> i'm looking for a generic minimum that i can assume safely and will be easy to find
[08:11:29] <Jan-> so I was cautious
[08:11:44] <Jan-> I can't imagien you'd have a problem with half an amp
[08:11:51] <CapnKernel> Jan-: You just don't need it. Honestly, I don't know why you persist.
[08:11:53] <Jan-> but what do I know
[08:12:17] <Jan-> I guess I might need one of these: http://shop.moderndevice.com/products/bub_ii
[08:12:33] <Jan-> But that's assuming I omit Tom_itx's adaptor device. I think.
[08:17:23] <Jan-> is this the phone cable everyone was recommending: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/data-cable-compatible-with-nokia-ca-42-446
[08:19:43] <nevdull> amee2k: looking thru my catalog, as per mouser, the FCI BergStik 0.1 male headers can withstand 1500VAC rms and 3A continuous (page 1522 of their catalog)
[08:22:11] <amee2k> nice
[08:22:50] <amee2k> think i'll specify 1A/pin safe minimum current then
[08:22:51] <Jan-> Uuuurgh
[08:23:02] * Jan- drinks freshly-squeezed orange juice
[08:23:07] <Jan-> that's nice. painful, but nice.
[08:23:19] <amee2k> Tequila Sunrise with fresh orange juice is massive win
[08:24:57] <Jan-> I'm drinking, eating and generally imbibing so much citrus at the moment, I'm getting acid reflux.
[08:25:11] <Jan-> Have you had limoncello?
[08:25:44] <nevdull> i like anaranciata
[08:25:48] <amee2k> lol
[08:26:10] <amee2k> some days i could eat these small orange-thingies all day long
[08:26:27] <amee2k> mmh, i don't remember the name... like half the size of normal oranges and usually much easier to peel
[08:26:33] <nevdull> cuties
[08:26:38] <nevdull> is what we call them here
[08:26:44] <Jan-> satsumas?
[08:26:54] <amee2k> clementines
[08:27:12] <amee2k> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine
[08:27:16] <Jan-> A clementine is a variety of mandarin orange (Citrus reticulata), so named in 1902.[1]
[08:27:17] <nevdull> yah so flavorful
[08:27:22] <Steffanx> Granini :D
[08:27:22] <Jan-> I love citrus
[08:27:33] <Jan-> I like to make real proper lemonade in summer. Juice of one lemon, water, sugar to taste.
[08:27:35] <Jan-> what else do you need
[08:27:50] <nevdull> vodka
[08:28:02] <Jan-> Well, only in the evening :)
[08:28:13] <nevdull> only past noon ;)
[08:29:35] <Jan-> Well, you could call a tequila sunrise an afternoon drink
[08:29:40] <Jan-> but I'd rather have a mojito
[08:30:32] <Jan-> wow all this citrus really clears your throat out
[08:30:34] <Jan-> I can speak normally!
[08:30:42] <amee2k> 0.0
[08:30:55] * amee2k . o O ( deep throated by a citrus fruit... nono! )
[08:31:19] <Steffanx> :S
[08:31:23] <nevdull> that's a conversation you don't wanna walk into halfway thru
[08:31:33] <amee2k> lol
[08:31:34] <Jan-> nono
[08:31:41] <Jan-> I have (well, had now!) a really hoarse throat from the cold
[08:32:01] <Jan-> but I ate two oranges and a grapefruit half, and it's (presumably temporarily) better.
[08:34:34] <ben1066> hm Tom_itx, have you considered adding a small step up converter on your programmer so that RESET can be put to 12V on TPI when teh reset disable fuse is set
[08:34:50] <ben1066> Since it's more needed than other avrs imo due to the 4IO limit
[08:34:52] <Steffanx> He has een extra board for that ..
[08:35:37] <Steffanx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php <= below "Now Available"
[08:35:41] <ben1066> LIES, i didnt see that :P
[08:35:50] <Jan-> I have one of those :)
[08:36:10] <Jan-> that's how I heard of abcminiuser
[08:36:12] <ben1066> that should work with the avrisp mk2 as well right?
[08:36:26] <Steffanx> Don't know
[08:37:09] <abcminiuser> ben1066, yes, I believe so
[08:37:15] <abcminiuser> And WOO, I'm still popular
[08:37:28] <Steffanx> Still :P
[08:38:09] <ben1066> Hm I guess until then Ill just use one of my 7812s and an external supply, while isolating the reset from teh avrispmk2
[08:38:12] <ben1066> should still work
[08:38:16] <ben1066> but a bit more of a pain ;P
[08:41:41] * Jan- offers abcminiuser some of her grapefruit, but can't recommend he accepts it due to the extreme risk of cross-infection with a horrible head cold
[08:45:58] <abcminiuser> Jan-, I wouldn't recommend grapefruit because of the awful taste
[08:46:00] <abcminiuser> :P
[08:46:29] <Jan-> Aw noooo!
[08:46:35] * Jan- less-than-three grapefruit!
[08:46:41] <Jan-> Grapefruit is awesome!
[08:47:06] <Jan-> OK, when you have a cold like this, drinking the juice makes you feel like you've been stabbed in the throat. But it tastes good!
[08:50:37] <CapnKernel> Jan, yes, that's the cable I recommended. You might also be able to find one closer to home.
[08:50:57] <Jan-> And I can (get phil to) cut off the phone connector and connect it directly to the pins on the AVR?
[08:51:08] <CapnKernel> Cut the phone end off, strip the wires. Which one is which? Crack the case and the names on the PCB will tell you which one is which. 2 mins work and you're home for tea.
[08:51:12] <CapnKernel> YES
[08:51:14] <Jan-> and if this doesn't work I can come to your house and criticize linux at 3am using a megaphone?
[08:51:17] <CapnKernel> That's the whole point
[08:51:28] * Jan- snickers
[08:51:30] * Jan- is a terrible person
[08:51:33] <CapnKernel> Great steaming gobbets of crap disappear if you take this route
[08:51:46] <Jan-> Well this is easier :/
[08:52:22] <CapnKernel> Now if anyone is suggesting that Jan *don't* take this route, the time to say so is now.
[08:52:28] <Jan-> Yers.
[08:52:35] <Jan-> The thing is it says that device uses the PL-2303
[08:52:39] <Jan-> and...so does the one I have...
[08:54:26] <Jan-> oh fuckit it's two dollars I'll buy one
[08:55:17] <Jan-> Does this imply that the nokia phone is just using basic, nothing-special 5-volt serial for its comms
[08:55:25] <Jan-> in that cable that they charge you £50 for?
[08:55:29] <CapnKernel> YES
[08:55:30] <abcminiuser> Jan-, the old one certainly did
[08:55:30] <CapnKernel> YES
[08:55:33] <Jan-> Grrr
[08:55:35] <Jan-> Bitches, eh
[08:55:39] <abcminiuser> Oh god, NO, avoid the PL2303
[08:55:46] <Jan-> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHH
[08:55:48] <abcminiuser> Horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE chipset
[08:55:55] <Jan-> Can you guys please sort this out and get back to me?!
[08:56:03] <CapnKernel> abcminiuser: Are you winding her up?
[08:56:05] * Jan- does some more circle-running, arm-waving
[08:56:17] <abcminiuser> No it's awful, used them before
[08:56:21] <CapnKernel> Jan-: I think that's a good idea right about now. abcminiuser will get a room and get back to you.
[08:56:21] <Jan-> I have one here
[08:56:23] <Jan-> It was kind of annoying.
[08:56:31] <abcminiuser> Half the time they lock up, other half the driver won't install
[08:56:42] <Jan-> It changed its serial port number a lot every time we reinstalled the driver
[08:57:03] <CapnKernel> That's a Windows thing (and no I'm doing this as a bash, just as a consequence of the way Windows works)
[08:57:08] <Jan-> and it suffered from what I'm calling "Port Poisoning", where if you plugged it into a port and installed the driver and it failed for any reason, it would never work in that port again.
[08:57:24] <Jan-> some el cheapo USB devices suffer from that problem
[08:57:31] <CapnKernel> abcminiuser: She's got a point
[08:57:43] <Jan-> I have?! What point have I got?
[08:57:46] <CapnKernel> Can you recommend an alternative that is i) cheap ii) works?
[08:58:13] <CapnKernel> That port poisoning, among the other problems, would be "kind of annoying"
[08:58:26] <CapnKernel> Me, I never had any problem with it, but if anyone would know, it'd be abcminiuser
[08:58:33] <abcminiuser> CapnKernel, pains me, but FDTI devices have decent drivers
[08:58:35] <CapnKernel> And now the rascal's scarpered.
[08:58:47] <CapnKernel> So what's a girl to do?
[08:59:00] <CapnKernel> What's the simplest, cheapest, most reliable way out of this whole mess?
[08:59:15] * abcminiuser wasn't paying attention in the first place, needs to check scrollback
[08:59:30] <CapnKernel> She needs TTL-level serial to talk to her ATmega
[08:59:48] <Jan-> ftdi ones always seem to work
[08:59:56] <Jan-> they have the number changing thing sometimes
[08:59:59] <Jan-> but they do seem to work
[09:00:09] * Jan- thinks atmel should make a chip with usb serial built in
[09:00:27] <abcminiuser> The FTDI ones have serials, so they shouldn't move ports
[09:00:28] <CapnKernel> Haha, THEY DO!
[09:00:43] <abcminiuser> The actual phone interface is TTL serial, so you can interface direct to the ATMEGA
[09:00:48] <Jan-> abcminiuser: I'm not sure what happens if they find that port in use by another device though
[09:00:50] <Jan-> It's complicated
[09:00:56] <CapnKernel> That's what abcminiuser's software is all about: Atmel chips with built-in USB
[09:01:18] <Jan-> I thought someone wrote code to bit-bang USB on an AVR
[09:01:23] <Jan-> presumably the slow USB
[09:01:35] <CapnKernel> They did, I've used it, works well for the things I've tried
[09:01:38] <amee2k> yes, V-usb
[09:01:42] <Jan-> isn't that kind of a CPU hog
[09:01:45] <Jan-> on such a low powered little chip
[09:01:49] <amee2k> yep
[09:01:51] <CapnKernel> Yes
[09:01:58] <Jan-> I mean, USB goes at 12 megabits per second, some AVRs don't CLOCK at 12 megahertz
[09:02:04] <amee2k> and from what i've heard using any kind of interrupts will mess up the USB signalling
[09:02:27] <amee2k> iirc V-usb requires *exactly* a 12MHz xtal to work properly
[09:02:31] * Jan- pokes at abcminiuser
[09:02:36] <CapnKernel> You can use interrupts, just that the interrupt for USB has to have higher priority than any other interrupt
[09:02:37] <Jan-> so what do I use instead, abcminiuser?
[09:02:38] <abcminiuser> RAWR
[09:02:44] <CapnKernel> No, several clock speeds are possible
[09:02:45] <abcminiuser> Don't poke the tiger
[09:02:52] <Jan-> I have a pl2303 thing here
[09:02:57] <amee2k> interresting
[09:02:59] * Jan- brandishes a chair at abcminiuser
[09:03:03] <amee2k> well, was a while ago that i looked at it
[09:03:06] <Jan-> ...and I can confirm your interpretation that it appears to suck ass.
[09:03:08] <CapnKernel> Now this I'd pay to see
[09:03:09] <abcminiuser> Wait, you want to talk to the phone direct from the MEGA right?
[09:03:11] <abcminiuser> No USB needed
[09:03:16] <Jan-> abcminiuser: No, a computer.
[09:03:24] <CapnKernel> MEGA <--> PC
[09:03:36] <abcminiuser> So the phone's irrelevant here?
[09:03:44] <Jan-> I have no specific need for it, I just thought it'd be kinda easier to have a serial terminal open for debug info.
[09:03:47] <Jan-> If that makes sense.
[09:03:52] <CapnKernel> The original plan (before you arriveD) was to buy a cheap DX Nokia phone adaptor and cut the phone plug off
[09:03:53] <amee2k> so PC <--> mega <--> phone/modem ?
[09:03:53] <abcminiuser> Ok, well use the crappy PL232 for now, switch to a decent chipset later on
[09:04:13] <CapnKernel> Jan-: It'll get you going
[09:04:17] <Jan-> Even though I havn't used it seriously, it does seem to suck a lot.
[09:04:20] <abcminiuser> What about Smokey's BBUSB thingy?
[09:04:24] <abcminiuser> Might cost too much tho
[09:04:25] <Jan-> there was an immediate impression of suckage
[09:04:36] <amee2k> how about a buttpirate?
[09:04:39] * abcminiuser files that under "that's what she said"
[09:04:43] <CapnKernel> Loud greedy slurping sounds?
[09:04:55] <Jan-> more "The USB device has not been recognised" sort of sounds.
[09:05:19] * amee2k idly points out that the buspirate idea was a serious suggestion
[09:05:21] <CapnKernel> Did you install the drivers *before* inserting hardware?
[09:05:36] <Jan-> yes.
[09:05:46] <CapnKernel> amee2k: Yeah but it sounded suspiciously like "assbandit"
[09:06:03] <amee2k> inserting hardware before installing drivers is like sex before marriage
[09:06:06] * Jan- plugs it in
[09:06:21] <Jan-> It says, "Prolific USB Serial-To-Comm port (COM7)"
[09:06:25] <amee2k> children of the church of redmond just can't have it
[09:06:48] <Jan-> amee2k: often it's OK if you just do the manual reinstall-driver thing from Device Manager.
[09:07:02] <Jan-> OK. Today, the Prolific thing is working.
[09:07:07] <Jan-> Tomorrow, who knows.
[09:07:23] <amee2k> CapnKernel: that was the general idea, yes
[09:07:45] <Jan-> now, are you saying I *can't* just connect this to the AVR?
[09:07:50] <CapnKernel> Something like that
[09:08:00] <CapnKernel> Jan-: Your PL2302 device, does it have a DB-9 connector?
[09:08:05] <Jan-> Yes.
[09:08:07] <amee2k> you can connect to everything
[09:08:17] <amee2k> the far more interresting question is how ghetto do you want it to be
[09:08:26] <CapnKernel> Is there a way to get it to do TTL, or is it a sealed unit?
[09:08:36] <Jan-> although theoretically I think a 9 pin D type connector is strictly a DE-9
[09:08:44] <Jan-> but I know what you mean
[09:08:58] <ben1066> hmm
[09:09:09] <Jan-> It's a sealed unit. It's sealed in bluegreen plastic, you can see them all over ebay and the web
[09:09:10] <CapnKernel> Just answer the question love.
[09:09:11] <ben1066> would 11V do for the RESET or do aVRs need strictly 12V?
[09:09:36] <Jan-> Although we have no objection to taking a boxcutter to it, if the situation demands.
[09:17:28] <Jan-> errr
[09:17:32] <Jan-> ok?
[09:18:40] <amee2k> <awkward silence>
[09:18:48] <Jan-> *tumbleweed*
[09:18:53] <Jan-> *distant bell tolling*
[09:19:51] <CapnKernel> * crickets *
[09:20:33] <CapnKernel> Jan-: What's likely to be inside that blue beast of yours is a PL2302, and something MAX232-compatible.
[09:20:57] <CapnKernel> Me, I wouldn't bother, I'd either buy the DX one, or get something similar locally.
[09:21:07] <amee2k> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGpcskOqEtM << this just came to mind
[09:21:08] <Jan-> yers.
[09:22:59] * CapnKernel wonders if Jan- knows where AC/DC are from...
[09:23:24] <Jan-> Sydney, Australia
[09:23:37] * Jan- alt-F4s wikipedia before CapnKernel notices it
[09:23:54] <CapnKernel> don't mess with Australians
[09:24:04] <Steffanx> Sure?
[09:24:06] <Jan-> am I messing with an australian?
[09:24:24] <Jan-> what's he gonna do, surf me to death?
[09:24:37] <CapnKernel> Only me, abcminiuser, inflex, ziph, and a host of others
[09:24:37] <Jan-> use that irritating vocal tic that turns everything? into? a? question? like they do?
[09:24:47] <Jan-> Uhoh.
[09:24:48] * Jan- hides
[09:25:26] <ziph> I don't know if you've ever heard of Harold Holt, but that's how we do it here.
[09:25:27] <CapnKernel> That's a bit rich, coming from a country whose queen thinks people live in a "hise"
[09:25:34] <Jan-> actually, all you'd need to do is to introduce me to an item of your native species.
[09:25:55] <Jan-> since any one of those species has a 95% chance of being deadly toxic, this would be a dry mouth moment all round.
[09:25:56] <CapnKernel> ziph: (joke) Did you hear the one about the sharks off Portsea Back Beach?
[09:26:06] <ziph> CapnKernel: No? :)
[09:26:16] <CapnKernel> They came to a screaming Holt.
[09:26:21] <Jan-> haw haw
[09:26:21] <ziph> Heh.
[09:26:26] <Jan-> and yes, I know about Harold Holt.
[09:26:40] <Jan-> But apparently he went somewhere where there's a massive rip and got dragged out to sea.
[09:26:56] <CapnKernel> Right out to the Russian submarine waiting just off the coast
[09:27:08] <CapnKernel> We love our conspiracy theories :-)
[09:27:09] <ziph> Jan-: It's better if it looks like an accident.
[09:27:50] <Jan-> Well it is so easy to have an "accident" in a country with toxic seashells :)
[09:28:04] <ziph> Everything is toxic in the water here.
[09:28:43] <CapnKernel> Esp Foster's.
[09:28:52] * Jan- consults her 13th edition of Dangerous Flora and Fauna of Australi: Volume 76, Part 12.
[09:29:07] <ziph> I thought customs was meant to prevent Fosters being bought in to the country?
[09:29:15] * Jan- lifts the massive, leather-bound tome onto the desk with some effort
[09:29:18] <Jan-> Right, where were we
[09:29:34] <CapnKernel> My plan for world domination is to poison Foster's - heaven knows, we don't drink it
[09:30:04] <Jan-> Actually it might be easier to consult "Australian Plants and Animals that Aren't Toxic", which is a free, one-sheet PDF available from the Australian Board of Tourism.
[09:30:16] <Jan-> Printed in 70-point text.
[09:30:18] <Jan-> Double spaced.
[09:30:21] <ziph> Jan-: I think you'd fit in well here.
[09:30:37] <Jan-> Well, I like warm weather, beer, and eating outdoors
[09:30:37] <ziph> Jan-: Commit some crime and we'll organise to have you brought here.
[09:30:40] <Jan-> so yeah
[09:30:50] <Jan-> I'm sure it'd be fine until one of your deadly creatures attacked me in my sleep.
[09:30:56] * Jan- has no idea how australians make it to puberty
[09:31:03] <ziph> Not swimming.
[09:31:06] <jacekowski> Jan-: they don't
[09:31:08] <ziph> The last animals are fairly tame.
[09:31:16] <ziph> The land animals are fairly tame rather.
[09:31:27] <jacekowski> Jan-: all people past puberty there are convicts that came from somewhere else
[09:31:55] <Jan-> Redback spiders, trapdoor spiders, funnel web spiders
[09:32:13] <ziph> Jan-: You can make it through a carton before they kill you.
[09:32:14] <Jan-> various types of snake
[09:32:30] <Jan-> tapina!
[09:32:33] <Jan-> er
[09:32:35] <Jan-> taipan!
[09:32:41] <Jan-> the saltwater crocodile
[09:32:55] <ziph> They live in water. :)
[09:33:11] <Jan-> blue-ringed octopus, stonefish, brown snake, tiger snake, vindscreen viper
[09:33:22] <Jan-> cone shells!
[09:33:45] <Jan-> And of course the cassowary, which will open you up like a velociraptor with its taloned feet, eat your intestines while you are still alive, and leave you to die.
[09:34:03] <Jan-> Then of course there's australia itself, which will literally charbroil you if you go out into the desert.
[09:34:08] <Jan-> Australia wants you dead.
[09:34:25] <ziph> Jan-: And yet I feel safer here without the rioting chav's. ;)
[09:34:45] <CapnKernel> I was wondering how those mechs got on top of the building. Maybe took lessons from this guy: http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictures/excavator-on-rooftop-of-12-story-building-in-taiyuan-shanx.html
[09:35:03] <Jan-> Seriously, how do you guys avoid getting stung, bitten, stabbed, poisoned, and generally killed
[09:35:08] <Jan-> do they do "death avoidance" classes in school?
[09:35:29] <CapnKernel> Shall we play her "the redback under the toilet seat"?
[09:35:38] <CapnKernel> And alert her as to the perils of drop bears?
[09:35:51] <ziph> No one has died from a Red Back for decades.
[09:36:01] <Jan-> is there an antidote?
[09:36:05] <CapnKernel> Yes
[09:36:07] <Jan-> phew
[09:36:08] <ziph> Yeah, for Red Back.
[09:36:09] <CapnKernel> But not for drop bears
[09:36:19] <ziph> Yeah, one of those gets you and you're screwed.
[09:36:19] <CapnKernel> Vicious creatures those drop bears
[09:36:31] <Jan-> still, you'll spend a few months in hospital on a ventilator, strapped down so you don't spasm your own spine out through your chest.
[09:36:44] <Jan-> In those circumstances the antidote might seem like cruelty.
[09:36:45] <CapnKernel> They lie in wait up trees, waiting for you to walk underneath, then they... DROP
[09:36:58] <Jan-> You guys have been reading Terry Pratchett :)
[09:37:03] <CapnKernel> Of course, there's only one way to avoid drop bears
[09:37:07] <Jan-> Hard hat?
[09:37:10] <ziph> They're like dragons; a bite from them will give you a severe infection.
[09:37:34] <CapnKernel> And it's to liberally smear yourself with a very very VERY special substance, developed specifically for this purpose
[09:37:36] <CapnKernel> VEGEMITE
[09:37:42] <Jan-> Anyway in all seriousness, Phil was in Sydney in 2000 for the olympics (he works as a TV cameraman) and he said it was the best time he'd ever had in the most beautiful city he'd ever been in.
[09:37:45] <CapnKernel> ziph: Isn't that true?
[09:37:48] <Jan-> So I really want to go.
[09:37:56] <Jan-> But I am a bit nervous about the poison creatures.
[09:38:14] <ziph> Don't worry about it.
[09:38:21] <Jan-> yeah yeah
[09:38:23] <Jan-> australians always say that
[09:38:36] <CapnKernel> ziph: She thinks I'm making up that stuff about the vegemite
[09:38:54] <Jan-> "Oh, it's alright, mate, my grandpa Frank was bitten by an [insert creature] and it's OK because he's off the ventilator and they've discovered he can communicate with eyeblinks."
[09:39:15] <Jan-> Australians ALWAYS downplay the fact that every plant and animal contains deadly neurotoxins
[09:39:27] <ziph> Jan-: Just don't go swimming above 21 degrees south and get to a hospital within about 8 hours if anything on the land bites you.
[09:39:39] <CapnKernel> Including men.
[09:39:50] <Jan-> I wouldn't go in the water in australia at any time or in any location.
[09:39:58] <Jan-> there are boxy jellyfish
[09:39:59] <Jan-> stonefish
[09:40:01] <CapnKernel> You're going to smell after a bit
[09:40:11] <Jan-> stonefish sit on the bottom with spines pointing up
[09:40:18] <Jan-> so when you tread on them they inject you with poison
[09:40:26] * Jan- shudders
[09:40:36] <Jan-> Box jellyfish cause apparently the most severe pain known to man.
[09:40:42] <ziph> Jan-: Unlike the UK Australia is 99% sandy beach. :)
[09:40:44] <Jan-> sharks will eat you
[09:40:47] <Jan-> crocodiles will eatyou
[09:40:59] <Jan-> even a grouper will idly tear off an arm or leg and swim away with it
[09:41:02] <ziph> More people die from vacuum cleaners every year than have ever died from shark attacks.
[09:41:09] <Jan-> Yes ziph
[09:41:10] <Jan-> that's lovely
[09:41:17] <Jan-> But I'd rather not be the exception
[09:41:33] <jacekowski> Jan-: sometimes it's not neurotoxin
[09:41:42] <Jan-> No, sometimes it's beta alkaloids!
[09:41:51] <Jan-> With a molecular weight above 150,000!
[09:41:55] <jacekowski> Jan-: sometimes it will kill you in even more unpleasant way
[09:42:03] <Jan-> Some of them just give you that flesh rotting disease
[09:42:09] <Jan-> so you slowly rot
[09:42:13] <Jan-> and die of multiple organ failure
[09:42:20] * Jan- shudders some more
[09:42:23] <nevdull> necrotizing faciitis?
[09:42:35] <Jan-> I'm not sure I'd be able to sleep in australia. Can't sleep. Funnel web'll get me!
[09:42:42] <amee2k> who has necrotic feces?
[09:43:06] <nevdull> zombies
[09:43:10] <amee2k> ...
[09:43:13] <CapnKernel> neurotic faces?
[09:43:13] <amee2k> i see
[09:44:29] <Jan-> But seriously.
[09:44:36] <Jan-> What the hell do you do about not getting eaten
[09:44:51] <amee2k> shotgun under the bed seems to help
[09:45:03] <Casper> Jan-: come to canada then :D
[09:45:11] * amee2k obviously has no idea what the conversation is about
[09:46:09] <Jan-> the fact that 95% of everything in australia is deadly on contact
[09:46:24] <nevdull> does that include marmite?
[09:46:28] <Jan-> they have cone shells there that will drop you in an hour.
[09:47:02] <amee2k> just means you need a better shotgun
[09:47:10] <Jan-> the south sea cone shell is the most toxic creature in the world
[09:47:15] <Jan-> it fires little spears out of itself
[09:47:18] <Jan-> yes literally
[09:47:24] <Jan-> that's not just deadly, that's CREATIVELY deadly.
[09:50:29] * Tom_itx noticed about 80% of scrollback was about some damn serial thing
[09:50:36] <Jan-> Yes.
[09:50:52] <Jan-> Apparently I shouldn't have bought the serial adaptor thing from you.
[09:51:13] <Steffanx> :P
[09:51:21] <Tom_itx> it's not too late
[09:51:42] <amee2k> its not too late until tom has the money :P
[09:51:51] <Tom_itx> err for the atmega32u2
[09:52:20] <Tom_itx> load dean's serial thing and be on your way
[09:53:33] <Jan-> I think most of the USB ones are only available in Tiny Mini Ultra-Small Squiffy Little Package with 10283 pins on each edge that's a quarter of an inch square.
[09:54:41] <Tom_itx> so?
[09:55:17] <Jan-> so they're only usable if you're making 400,000 units in a shenzen workhouse.
[09:55:32] <Tom_itx> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/718
[09:55:48] <Jan-> ooooOOOOOooooo
[09:55:48] <nevdull> get at90usb162 in tqfp32 and a breakout board from futurlec.com for $0.85
[09:55:51] <Jan-> OK well
[09:55:55] <Jan-> I'm gonna buy this phone cable
[09:56:02] <Tom_itx> NOOOOOOOO!!!
[09:56:08] <Jan-> oh for fuck's sake
[09:56:19] <Jan-> This is like linux
[09:56:19] * Tom_itx snickers at the confustion
[09:56:25] <Jan-> Person A proposes solution X
[09:56:31] <Jan-> Person B says solution X sucks, and proposes solution Y
[09:56:45] <Tom_itx> the point i just interjected was that you need to decide for yourself
[09:56:48] <Jan-> Person C turns up, indicates that all preceding opinions are those of idiots, and tells me Z is the way to go
[09:56:57] * Jan- runs around in circles, waving her arms
[09:56:57] <OndraSter> yes. grab Z!
[09:57:05] <ziph> What do you want to do?
[09:57:10] <Jan-> *sob*
[09:57:12] <Steffanx> Yeah, they are all a bunch of idiots here :P
[09:57:12] <Casper> but solution W is even better!
[09:57:28] * Tom_itx moves Steffanx to the front of the class
[09:57:51] <Steffanx> I'm part of the 'bunch of idiots' Tom_itx :P
[09:57:55] <nevdull> any solution starting with the first three or last three letters of the alphabet are always wrong
[09:57:58] <Tom_itx> Jan-, why do you have a problem with the FT232?
[09:58:07] * Jan- sits in the corner, hugging her knees
[09:58:10] * Jan- rocks back and forth
[09:58:13] <Jan-> The horror, the horror
[09:58:29] <Steffanx> Time to get an Arduino Jan-
[09:59:24] <OndraSter> Jan-, you want serial with RS232 levels?
[09:59:27] <OndraSter> and all DTR etc signals?
[09:59:37] <Jan-> I don't know anymore :(
[09:59:44] <OndraSter> that's bad then
[09:59:47] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, no she doesn't need all that
[09:59:54] <OndraSter> so what does she need
[09:59:55] <ziph> You could do it with a USB AVR and LUFA. ;)
[10:00:00] <OndraSter> I still can't figure it out :D
[10:00:08] <Tom_itx> the ft232 would do just find but i doubt anybody could convince her at this point
[10:01:02] <Jan-> y'know, you guys aren't exactly enhancing the reputation of "the community" here
[10:01:23] <OndraSter> Jan-, if you tell me what you need on one side and on the other side
[10:01:26] <OndraSter> it is simple.
[10:01:27] <Tom_itx> pick one and listen but don't listen to all
[10:01:33] <Tom_itx> you will go nuts
[10:01:51] <Jan-> no kidding :(
[10:01:55] <Tom_itx> if one is wrong, take note and never listen to him again
[10:02:10] <Jan-> well YOU told me to get YOUR RS232 converter and a USB thing!
[10:02:19] <Tom_itx> take note
[10:02:35] <Tom_itx> but in defence i presumed you knew and had a rs232 port on your pc
[10:02:58] <Jan-> I thought it'd be easy to add one :(
[10:03:05] <Tom_itx> it is
[10:03:29] <Jan-> well I've tried twice
[10:03:45] <Tom_itx> the problem is windows 7
[10:03:55] <Tom_itx> i have no problems with xp pro
[10:04:00] <OndraSter> W7 works with ft232 and pl2303 just fine
[10:04:07] <OndraSter> or what is the board then
[10:04:16] <Casper> what is the goal?
[10:04:27] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, like i said, nobody will be able to convince her of that now
[10:04:30] <Casper> serial? usb-serial? usb-enabled avr?
[10:04:46] <OndraSter> I think
[10:04:48] <OndraSter> I need a beer
[10:04:50] * Tom_itx feels Casper is way too late to the party and shuts the door
[10:05:08] * Casper opens and remove the door
[10:05:13] <Jan-> Aaargh :(
[10:05:27] <Jan-> so this nokia phone cable thing definitely won't work?
[10:05:28] <OndraSter> Jan-, once again
[10:05:28] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> Jan-, if you tell me what you need on one side and on the other side
[10:05:28] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> it is simple.
[10:05:30] <Tom_itx> Casper, it's the whole 'i don't have a serial port anymore' dihlemma
[10:05:55] <OndraSter> ============
[10:05:57] <OndraSter> TO GET SERIAL PORT:
[10:06:02] <OndraSter> FT232 or PL2303
[10:06:05] <OndraSter> both work exactly the same
[10:06:07] <Tom_itx> W7-PC to atmel avr
[10:06:20] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, yeah we know
[10:06:31] <Tom_itx> like i said, nobody will be able to convince her of that now
[10:06:31] <Tom_itx> like i said, nobody will be able to convince her of that now
[10:06:32] <Tom_itx> like i said, nobody will be able to convince her of that now
[10:06:34] <Casper> duhhh no wonder why windpows update wasn't working but yesterday it was....
[10:06:38] <OndraSter> Tom_itx, I tried showing it in large letters :D
[10:06:48] <OndraSter> Casper, yesterday internet was down? :D
[10:06:52] <Casper> ... the router change it's name and password every midnight...
[10:07:19] <Tom_itx> originally part of the story was left out or maybe she wouldn't be in this situation
[10:08:06] <Tom_itx> i could pull logs ya know
[10:08:16] <Jan-> Let me get this straight
[10:08:28] <Jan-> Tom_itx thinks the original plan is OK and I should add a serial port to the PC
[10:08:31] <CapnKernel> Tom_itx: She wants to talk serial to her ATmega. Nothing more complicated than that
[10:08:39] <Tom_itx> yup
[10:08:45] <Tom_itx> i'm well aware of that
[10:08:46] <Jan-> CapnKernel says to get the phone cable, but both abcminiuser_ and Tom_itx say that isn't a good approach
[10:09:00] <CapnKernel> My suggestion, which may or may not be better than anyone else's, is to get the phone cable and de-phone it
[10:09:06] <Tom_itx> i know nothing about a phone cable
[10:09:10] * Jan- sobs
[10:09:13] <Tom_itx> dunno know what it does
[10:09:15] <Tom_itx> or doesn't do
[10:09:18] <CapnKernel> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/data-cable-compatible-with-nokia-ca-42-446
[10:09:21] <Casper> phone cable ain't good for data, they often have an high resistance too...
[10:09:29] * amee2k idly puts on a jumpsuit and jumps around the channel \o/
[10:09:41] <Casper> it might work for low speed, but I doubt it will work for high speed
[10:09:43] <CapnKernel> I have used that particular model many times.
[10:09:51] <CapnKernel> I have used it at 115k many times
[10:10:09] <Jan-> does it even need to be fast
[10:10:21] <Jan-> just for like, debug output, and stuff
[10:10:30] <Tom_itx> so now it's back to the 'which one should i listen to' problem
[10:10:43] <amee2k> having the correct speed is more important than having a fast speed
[10:10:54] <Casper> Jan-: basically, the faster it get, the more info you can send without having to wait for the buffer to empty
[10:10:54] <Tom_itx> the phone cable likely has some type of ft232 device in it
[10:10:59] <amee2k> i usually use 9.6kbaud or 34.8kbaud for debugging
[10:11:05] <CapnKernel> PL2302 or thereabouts
[10:11:06] <Jan-> the phone cable has a PL23030 in it
[10:11:07] <OndraSter> pl2303, Tom_itx, say people
[10:11:13] <Jan-> er, PL2302 or whatever it is
[10:11:23] <Jan-> identical ones on ebay are specified as using that
[10:11:33] <Jan-> but abcminiuser_ says that chipset "sucks" and I should avoid it
[10:11:34] <Tom_itx> dean was the one wary of it
[10:11:37] <Casper> but the faster the rx, the harder it get for the avr to get the data (due to the limited time per btyte)
[10:11:38] <Jan-> ....so... I'm totally... confused
[10:11:44] <CapnKernel> <sigh> I've seen episodes of Yes Minister that were less convoluted than this
[10:11:46] <Tom_itx> and i trust his judgement
[10:12:04] <OndraSter> Jan-, if you have that cable at home, use it
[10:12:07] <CapnKernel> Well that's an AVR problem, not a cable problem, whatever the cable
[10:12:12] <OndraSter> if it doesn't work, get regular ft232
[10:12:26] <Jan-> can I just "get regular ft232" right now?
[10:12:31] <Tom_itx> sure
[10:12:37] * CapnKernel isn't saying anything
[10:12:50] <Jan-> where from
[10:13:01] <Tom_itx> cheapest place you can find one
[10:13:06] <Casper> Jan-: PL2302 is cheaper than the FT232, but just work, but the drivers can be problematic to find sometime if you're on windows
[10:13:08] <Jan-> what google text do I want
[10:13:16] <amee2k> Casper: well, transmission speed without handshaking is really a conflict of interrest. the TX side wants the highest speed possible so it can get rid of the data faster to keep polling times short or buffer overflows
[10:13:38] <Tom_itx> Casper, 64bit w7 iirc
[10:13:38] <amee2k> the RX side wants the lowest possible speed to prevent buffer overflows while processing the received data
[10:13:57] * abcminiuser_ is off to a party
[10:13:58] <Jan-> what about this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-TTL-5V-Serial-Cable-FTDI-FT232-Arduino-UNO-mini-duemilanove-Mega-/170752707978?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item27c1a78d8a#ht_2389wt_1081
[10:14:03] <abcminiuser_> For the record tho PL232 sucks
[10:14:05] <abcminiuser_> Talk later
[10:14:06] <Casper> amee2k: yeah... but for debug, high speed is good as there is basically no rx
[10:14:12] <Tom_itx> later abcminiuser_
[10:14:13] <amee2k> yep
[10:14:17] <Jan-> later abcminiuser_
[10:14:18] <Jan-> and thanks
[10:14:19] <Jan-> I think...
[10:14:54] <Jan-> This one is more pounds than the other one was
[10:14:55] <amee2k> and the host computer used for debugging has comparatively unlimited buffer memory so no worries about losing bytes to an overflow
[10:15:11] <Casper> I got trouble with one PLwhatever
[10:15:12] <Jan-> Is this becaus ethe FT232 costs more than the PL thing?
[10:15:28] <Tom_itx> Jan- http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/FT232R.htm
[10:15:29] <Casper> after a few hours, I still couln't find a workling xp driver
[10:15:33] <amee2k> FTDI prices are like in a pharmacy
[10:15:37] <ben1066> atmega8u2 :P
[10:15:48] <Casper> Jan-: yes ft is more expensive than pl
[10:15:55] <Jan-> Tom_itx: that's just the chip
[10:16:00] <Tom_itx> http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Cables/USBRS232.htm#UC232R-10
[10:16:36] <Jan-> OK let's reduce this to super simplicity
[10:16:40] <Jan-> IF I BUY THAT, WILL IT WORK.
[10:16:56] <OndraSter> yes
[10:17:01] <Jan-> anyone else?
[10:17:05] <Tom_itx> ftdichip dot com says it will
[10:17:08] <Tom_itx> i don't own one
[10:17:19] <OndraSter> ft232 is good chip, I use it everywhere
[10:17:22] <ziph> The FTDI adapters work well.
[10:17:30] <Tom_itx> they are very popular
[10:17:45] <Jan-> And it's basically a serial to USB bridge on a chip?
[10:17:51] <OndraSter> but not cheap, Tom_itx... PL2303 can be bought for <$1 with 100pcs
[10:17:53] <OndraSter> yes Jan-
[10:17:59] <Casper> the ebay one appear to be a good usb-serial adaptor
[10:17:59] <OndraSter> your PC will see serial port
[10:18:01] <OndraSter> COM3
[10:18:03] <OndraSter> for example
[10:18:08] <OndraSter> and every regular app will be able to talk with it
[10:18:13] <OndraSter> just like with old-school serial port
[10:18:18] <Jan-> this one is quite a lot more expenisve than the PL2302 ones
[10:18:22] <Jan-> is that reasonable?
[10:18:33] <Tom_itx> http://apple.clickandbuild.com/cnb/shop/ftdichip?productID=39&op=catalogue-product_info-null&prodCategoryID=84
[10:18:42] <Tom_itx> no fancy shell
[10:18:45] <OndraSter> I had PL2303 on one device and it burnt
[10:18:54] <Casper> Jan-: I'ld personally consider the ebay one and would recommand it
[10:19:04] <Jan-> Does anyone violently disagree with Casper?
[10:19:16] <Tom_itx> i always disagree with casper :)
[10:19:27] <CanyonMan> i wonder
[10:19:31] <amee2k> i may be bribed with pizza
[10:19:39] <Jan-> SERIOUSLY guys
[10:19:42] <CanyonMan> if timer2 on a mega328 can do auto resets, i wonder why this usb weather v2 firmware from sparkfun is reloading the timer manually
[10:19:48] <Jan-> you're just fucking with me now aren't you :(
[10:19:50] <OndraSter> Jan-, BUY IT!
[10:19:54] <OndraSter> we wish :/
[10:20:00] <Tom_itx> Jan-, NEVER!
[10:20:02] <amee2k> how much is it?
[10:20:05] <Casper> Jan-: it's based on a ft232rl, which is a good one. Sure some other FT232 have some better functionality, but nothing usefull if you are doing only serial communication
[10:20:13] <Jan-> And there are *DEFINITELY* windows 7 drivers?
[10:20:17] <OndraSter> *YES*
[10:20:20] <OndraSter> using it every day
[10:20:23] <Casper> the RM I think can do SPI, but you need a different circuit board anyway
[10:20:26] <OndraSter> Arduino itself is using that!
[10:20:31] <Tom_itx> Jan-, check the ftdi website if you have doubts
[10:20:31] <amee2k> how much does it cost??
[10:20:39] <Jan-> £10ish
[10:20:44] <Jan-> like 15 US dollars
[10:20:46] <OndraSter> 10 GBP is stealing I'd say though
[10:20:55] <amee2k> good. go for it. if it doesn't work, sell it for 15GBP on ebay
[10:20:58] <Jan-> I don't care. I just bought it.
[10:21:01] <OndraSter> ok
[10:21:02] <OndraSter> good
[10:21:07] <Tom_itx> OMG!
[10:21:10] <Jan-> if it doesn't work, I'm going to come to all of your houses with a baseball bat
[10:21:16] <Tom_itx> cool
[10:21:16] <Jan-> AND MY RIGHTEOUS ANGER
[10:21:20] <Tom_itx> then we can meet
[10:21:20] <OndraSter> fine
[10:21:26] <OndraSter> you wanted to come to Prague anyway :P
[10:21:30] <amee2k> Jan-: can we exchange the baseball bat for pizza?
[10:21:38] <Jan-> Tom_itx: I doubt you'd be impressed. I'm a 5'1, pale, dark-haired cripple.
[10:21:46] * Tom_itx readies the peacepipe
[10:21:53] <Jan-> Ooh. Pass on the left hand side.
[10:21:58] <OndraSter> 5'1
[10:22:00] <amee2k> Tom_itx: is that the new euphemism for shotgun?
[10:22:04] <OndraSter> that's 153cm?
[10:22:07] <Tom_itx> :)
[10:22:17] <Casper> Jan-: just a note of warning: usb-serial adaptor do not work with most cheap serial avr programmer, as in those who bitbang the port, like ponyprog serial
[10:22:17] <Jan-> 5 feet one inch = 154.94 centimetres
[10:22:18] <Jan-> More about calculator.
[10:22:31] <Jan-> WHAAAAAT?!
[10:22:33] <OndraSter> sexy height
[10:22:35] <Jan-> No wait
[10:22:41] <Jan-> I have a USB programmer made by Tom_itx
[10:22:49] <Jan-> all is well
[10:22:51] * Jan- calms down breathing
[10:22:53] <Tom_itx> damn fine one too if i may say
[10:23:10] <Jan-> OndraSter: I'm a midget
[10:23:16] <Casper> then the ebay one is perfect, a bit expensive but will work well
[10:23:19] <Jan-> like Invader Zim, I make up for this with INCANDESCENT RAAAAGE.
[10:23:29] <OndraSter> I like midgets
[10:23:32] * Jan- takes a deep breath
[10:23:36] <OndraSter> I am not that tall myself
[10:23:41] <Tom_itx> gawd i'm glad we solved this
[10:23:51] <Jan-> And IIIII, ZIMMM, will see to it that your PLASMA-BLEACHED BONES decoratethehallofthe VANQUISHED, you WORRRRM!"
[10:24:03] * Jan- loves invader zim
[10:24:05] <nevdull> DOOOOM!
[10:24:22] <Casper> ... vista claim that there is no more updates available.... I do not beleive it
[10:24:22] <OndraSter> doom... original DOOM
[10:24:43] <keenerd> Sigh. Spend all morning designing a data format, build a test rig and find out the biggest test input is one bit over.
[10:24:58] <Jan-> Tom_itx: and for this I don't need your level-shifter-in-a-DB9-connector because it's normal 5V ttl level serial, and I don't need to involve the max232, right?
[10:25:06] <OndraSter> yes
[10:25:13] <Tom_itx> Jan-, right
[10:25:55] <Tom_itx> hand i known about the lack of rs232 i'd have recomended the ft232 several months ago
[10:26:21] <CapnKernel> Jan-: that ebay one should go ok
[10:26:33] <Jan-> on the chip it says VIO, TXD, RXD, GND, 5V. I guess TXD on the board goes to RXD or "receive" or "in" or whatever on the AVR?
[10:26:50] <OndraSter> yes
[10:27:04] <OndraSter> TXD -> RXD, RXD -> TXD, GND - GND
[10:27:23] <CapnKernel> YES
[10:27:24] <Tom_itx> 0 available
[10:27:31] <CapnKernel> Not sure about VIO thoug
[10:27:38] <Jan-> Tom_itx: I got the last one
[10:27:40] * Jan- rocks
[10:27:43] <Tom_itx> :)
[10:27:51] <Jan-> one further question
[10:27:59] <Jan-> rs232 serial is a decades old standard
[10:28:01] <Tom_itx> uh oh
[10:28:11] <Jan-> WHY in the name of the GODS OF COMPUTING is this so HIDEOUSLY COMPLICATED?
[10:28:23] <OndraSter> it is not
[10:28:24] <OndraSter> http://9gag.com/gag/2130011
[10:28:30] <CapnKernel> because rs232 serial is a decades old standard
[10:28:35] <Tom_itx> it was an overengineered conversation was all
[10:28:48] <Casper> because RS232 is a decade old deprecated standard
[10:28:56] <Jan-> so why are nokia using it on phones?
[10:29:02] <CanyonMan> deprecated by what
[10:29:08] <Tom_itx> shhh don't tell them
[10:29:08] <CapnKernel> The phone that cable's for is a decade old
[10:29:12] <OndraSter> if you ask me directly, I wouldn't make it overengineered... because I am the only guy in house with another 2 absolutely electronicaly/PC unaware women
[10:29:14] <Casper> last real usage of RS232 was for serial modem and mouse
[10:29:16] <CapnKernel> Newer ones use USB
[10:29:28] <CapnKernel> And UPSs
[10:29:32] <Jan-> so what's all this about "woman logic"
[10:29:35] <CanyonMan> Still, I don't think I'd call RS232 "deprecated"
[10:29:42] * Tom_itx feels OndraSter is still trying to score points
[10:29:49] <OndraSter> yeah
[10:29:54] <OndraSter> hell yes I am!
[10:29:57] <Casper> CanyonMan: rs232 is currently almost useless, usb replaced it
[10:29:59] <ben1066> CanyonMan: RS232 isn't very useful due to the voltage levels
[10:29:59] <Jan-> don't barcode scanners and such use serial
[10:30:06] <OndraSter> often, yes
[10:30:09] <ben1066> UART is still useful as a basic protocol
[10:30:11] <OndraSter> it is simple to implement
[10:30:14] <OndraSter> compared to USB
[10:30:20] <Casper> Jan-: new scanner use usb
[10:30:32] <Jan-> does that just mean they have an Ft232 chip in them...
[10:30:37] <Casper> older one are mostly in line ps2
[10:30:50] <Jan-> oh, so they just "type" the numbers
[10:30:50] <OndraSter> Jan-, maybe in the past, but now it is all built into one chip
[10:30:51] <Tom_itx> or scsi :)
[10:30:56] <OndraSter> LPT!
[10:31:07] <Casper> I doubt barcode scanner use fr232, probably just a better microcontroller that emulate a keyboard
[10:31:30] <Jan-> also, professional video tape decks and related devices use RS... er... 422?
[10:31:41] <Jan-> I'm not sure if that's just the same thing with different voltages, or something entirely different
[10:31:58] <OndraSter> they are often multipoint
[10:32:04] <OndraSter> with addresses on the bus
[10:32:07] <Jan-> oh
[10:32:12] <Jan-> not usually in tape decks, but OK
[10:32:18] <CanyonMan> RS-422 is similar but it's a +/- 5V (typ) and it's balanced pairs
[10:32:23] <CanyonMan> two wires fo TX, two wires fo RX.
[10:32:25] <Jan-> Oh.
[10:32:27] <CapnKernel> "proper" rs232 is one of those awful things that lasted far longer than it should have.
[10:32:29] <Jan-> Are there dumb converters then?
[10:32:39] <CanyonMan> To RS422? absolutely
[10:32:40] <Jan-> It'd be nice to be able to send RS422 commands to tape decks.
[10:32:44] <Tom_itx> like 8track or casette tapes
[10:32:52] <Jan-> well more video tapes
[10:32:54] <Casper> Jan-: they use a bus or a differential signaling version of rs232, so they can use longer cable and increase the reliability
[10:32:56] <CanyonMan> B&B has coverters I'm sure ... for a price
[10:33:02] <Jan-> and, now, hard disk devices that emulate video tape decks
[10:33:33] <CanyonMan> jan or you can build one, http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/interface/rs485/index.cfm is a good place to strt and you get free sampes from them of most of their stuff
[10:36:49] <Jan-> maybe I can bit-bang it on an AVR
[10:37:33] <Tom_itx> for you who have them, i'll be posting a firmware update later to day or tomorrow. not a madatory update
[10:37:41] <Tom_itx> mandatory
[10:37:48] <Jan-> who have what
[10:37:57] <Tom_itx> usbtinymkii
[10:38:17] <Jan-> oh
[10:38:20] <Jan-> OK :)
[10:38:28] <Jan-> By the way, LUFA is a silly name
[10:38:38] <Tom_itx> but you remember it
[10:38:56] <Jan-> only because it sounds like something you'd use to scrub a particularly tenacious bit of hard skin in the bath.
[10:39:28] <Tom_itx> Lightweight USB Framework for AVRs
[10:39:30] <Tom_itx> LUFA
[10:39:31] <Jan-> On the other hand, it could've been called Microsoft Universal Serial Bus for Atmel AVR Business Edition 2012 with Plus Pack XP"
[10:39:47] <t4nk790> Hello. Are you use anybody AVR Studio 5? Is there support for in-system programmer ISP910?
[10:40:04] <Jan-> Tom_itx, and I still need to pick your brains on software
[10:40:05] <Tom_itx> t4nk790 their helpfile should answer that
[10:40:07] * Jan- downloads AVR Studio
[10:40:20] * Tom_itx hopes it was studio4
[10:41:10] <Tom_itx> t4nk790, i doubt it but avrdude probably does
[10:41:28] <t4nk790> I installed Studio5, but I am not sure, if supports ISP-910 programmer. I can not believe if it is not able.
[10:41:45] <Jan-> I can get "Atmel AVR Studio 5.0"
[10:41:55] <t4nk790> Yes, avrdude can use isp910 programmer.
[10:42:03] <Jan-> Or 4.
[10:42:05] <Jan-> You think 4?
[10:42:13] <Tom_itx> up to you
[10:42:15] <Tom_itx> i have both
[10:42:32] <Jan-> the site says to use 5 for new projects
[10:42:33] <Tom_itx> as5 is way bloated
[10:42:38] <Jan-> hrm
[10:42:42] <Jan-> why did you say 4
[10:42:51] <Tom_itx> well if you just wrote new software and was proud of it wouldn't you?
[10:43:02] <Jan-> errr
[10:43:06] <Jan-> OK, but why did you say 4
[10:43:14] <Tom_itx> not nearly as bloated
[10:43:25] <Jan-> can I move my project from 4 to 5? I guess so.
[10:44:01] <Tom_itx> you gotta rewrite all the code
[10:44:13] <Jan-> you're kidding
[10:44:21] <Tom_itx> glad you caught that
[10:44:24] <OndraSter> :D
[10:44:29] * Jan- lights Tom_itx on fire
[10:44:51] <t4nk790> So, can Studio5 work with avr910 ISP programmer?
[10:44:59] <Tom_itx> plug it in and see
[10:45:38] <t4nk790> Tom_itx: I am trying, but I see it does work.
[10:45:47] <t4nk790> *doesnt
[10:45:54] <Tom_itx> i would hope that fine piece of software would support something
[10:45:59] <Casper> then you have your answer?
[10:46:10] <Tom_itx> :)
[10:46:32] <t4nk790> Casper: no
[10:48:03] <Jan-> Owwuh. I have to REGISTER.
[10:48:43] <Jan-> Oh hell. "Job Title"
[10:48:47] <t4nk790> I have my programmer plug in USB port with ft232 driver and in AVRStudio5 I choose Tools->AVR programming. And there is not visible my programmer. Is there any trick in Studio5?
[10:48:52] * Jan- tries "Jellybean Taster"
[10:50:04] <Kevin`> t4nk790: I think atmel's program for avr910 has to be used explicitly. or just use avrdude
[11:02:52] <Jan-> we have achieved AVR Studio 4.19
[11:02:58] <Jan-> inGENIOUS!
[11:04:07] <ziph> And now someone will tell you to use Linux. :)
[11:04:22] <Jan-> someone can go dive in a lake
[11:09:46] <inflex> you should use like
[11:09:50] <inflex> ... like totally use linux
[11:12:27] <landonf> Someone should tell Atmel that standardizing on Visual Studio for Studio 5 was seriously uncool.
[11:12:49] <Jan-> Phil made me chicken soup :)
[11:13:45] * Jan- pushes inflex into the scorpion pit
[11:17:19] * Casper takes out inflex and delicatelly put jan instead
[11:17:34] <Casper> you can't say that I'm not gentle! :D
[11:22:31] <Casper> yay!
[11:22:37] * Jan- has fallen asleep
[11:22:40] <Casper> second and third call of the day!
[11:22:48] * Jan- is completely unaware of people sneaking the keyboard and typing things
[11:22:51] <Casper> ... first 2 wasn't interresting
[11:22:55] * Jan- snores raucously
[11:23:04] <Casper> last one is a callback from a customer that I called and got no answer
[11:23:20] * Casper opens a durian and put it near Jan-
[11:24:04] * Jan- is blissfully unaware
[11:24:15] <Casper> from wikipedia entry: ... its odor is best described as pig-shit, turpentine and onions, garnished with a gym sock. It can be smelled from yards away. Despite its great local popularity, the raw fruit is forbidden from some establishments such as hotels, subways and airports, including public transportation in Southeast Asia.
[11:24:36] <Tom_itx> inflex, i haven't noticed the problems with the itead boards on this batch
[11:25:23] <inflex> Tom_itx: mmm, good
[11:28:04] <Jan-> Reasons not to go to glasgow: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-16887385
[11:28:08] <keenerd> Hrm, shaving a bit off of the pointers and padding out the tree for better alignment seems to not work at all.
[11:32:22] <Tom_itx> Jan-, the guy must have been really hungry is all
[11:32:53] <Jan-> ndpadding out the tree for better alignment seems to not work at all.
[11:32:53] <Jan-> [17:23] <Tom_itx> Jan-, the guy must have been really hungry is all
[11:32:53] <Jan-> [16:37] <Tom_itx> :)
[11:32:56] <Jan-> damn!
[11:33:05] <Jan-> I mean this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/16849082
[11:34:54] <Jan-> can you guys see that?
[11:35:05] <Jan-> or is it location restricted
[11:36:51] <keenerd> Welcome back tobbor. Long time no see.
[11:37:37] <Jan-> isn't that just rue_mohr, wearing a different hat?
[11:37:52] <keenerd> Nah, tobbor can type a lot faster.
[11:37:55] <Tom_itx> it's his bot
[11:38:57] <rue_mohr> hello
[11:39:01] <rue_mohr> hi
[11:39:06] <rue_mohr> hi
[11:39:07] <tobbor> hi rue_mohr.
[11:39:14] <rue_mohr> !time
[11:39:16] <tobbor> My watch says its 09:35 Sat Feb 04 2012
[11:39:24] <rue_mohr> someone is a bit laggy
[11:39:43] * amee2k idly GuShHs
[11:40:31] <rue_mohr> ok gotta goprep!
[11:45:01] <jadew> is g++ broken in avr studio 5?
[11:46:08] <amee2k> o.O
[11:46:14] <amee2k> is that like C++ on even more crack?
[11:46:23] <jadew> it's c++
[11:46:30] <amee2k> oh
[11:46:39] <amee2k> well, no real loss right there then
[11:46:40] <jadew> with the gnu compiler
[11:46:52] <jadew> but it fails to compile
[11:48:03] <jadew> actually, it compiles broken statements and fails on method calls
[11:48:36] <jadew> like I have a class LCD { public: LCD(const SomeStruct & strct); };
[11:48:44] <jadew> and it compiles properly with LCD lcd();
[11:48:45] <OndraSter> c++ is quite overhaul for AVR
[11:48:49] <jadew> when there's no default constructor
[11:48:51] <OndraSter> it was never officially supported even I think
[11:49:14] <amee2k> lol
[11:49:31] <amee2k> C is a huge pecker on AVR already
[11:49:45] <amee2k> i mean, whats next? java? dot-net?
[11:49:51] <OndraSter> java already is
[11:49:57] <amee2k> (nevermind java, that probably already exists)
[11:49:58] <OndraSter> .NET micro framework requires more RAM :P
[11:49:59] <amee2k> >_<
[11:50:03] <nevdull> jadew: the compiler inserts a default ctor, dtor, and copy constructor if you don't specify them
[11:50:09] <amee2k> OndraSter: you HAD to tell me, right?
[11:50:10] <Steffanx> "c++ is quite overhaul for AVR" .. don't use everything from c++ and you should be 'ok' OndraSter ..
[11:50:15] <jadew> nevdull, that's not true
[11:50:19] <amee2k> now it'll be limp for a week again >_<
[11:50:31] <jadew> nevdull, if you have a custom constructor, the default constructor is omitted
[11:51:09] <jadew> Steffanx, well, I'm not trying to use everything, I'm trying to instantiate a class
[11:51:22] <jadew> which is like... the base of c++
[11:51:40] <Steffanx> I didn't talk to you jadew :P
[11:51:55] <jadew> ah, sorry then
[11:51:58] <Steffanx> :)
[11:52:02] <amee2k> the internet is many-to-many communication :P
[11:52:10] <OndraSter> multipoint notepad
[11:52:21] <Steffanx> amee2k: not always
[11:52:27] <Steffanx> :P
[11:52:33] <amee2k> everyone is talking to everyone, if it is convenient to the situation
[11:52:55] <amee2k> satisfied?
[11:53:16] <Steffanx> Nope
[11:53:24] <amee2k> good :)
[11:53:53] <jadew> gcc error: undefined reference - is it a linker error?
[11:53:56] <Jan-> Oh of course
[11:53:57] <Jan-> I have to use C
[11:54:02] * Jan- has barely used C before
[11:54:08] * Jan- is afraid of C and reviles it with the power of a thousand suns
[11:54:38] * amee2k idly wonders if lines of the form "on the internet, <stereotypical yet mildly meaningless rule here>, if it is convenient for the situation" are an internet meme already
[11:55:56] <amee2k> (or if there is a suitable well-define meme homomorphism to transform it into one)
[11:56:13] <grummund> jadew: yep
[11:56:34] <jadew> thanks, it wasn't clear from the build log
[11:56:45] <jadew> not too familiar with the gnu toolchain
[11:57:17] <Jan-> amee2k: I'm sick, please be less metap... fetam... metatataphoric...thing
[11:57:58] <amee2k> haha XD
[11:59:32] <amee2k> well, i *could* point out the use of a homomorphism would imply that it already is a meme, but if you insist i'll just leave it alone >_>
[11:59:35] <nevdull> jadew: yah, you're right, i overlooked your constructor. have you seen the avr-c++ micro how-to yet?
[12:00:28] <jadew> no, but my thing is pretty much done
[12:00:43] <jadew> where can I find that how-to tho?
[12:02:37] <nevdull> i compile c++ for avr with gcc without a problem but haven't used it in avr studio before, but i have a standard header and implementation file that i always include that defines the new/delete operator and guard extensions for virtual functions
[12:03:06] <specing> HE EVEN HAS NEW IMPLEMENTED
[12:03:15] <nevdull> jadew: try http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=458391
[12:03:17] * specing faceeepalmsss
[12:03:27] <nevdull> new is just a malloc wrapper
[12:03:33] <Jan-> the cat is sitting on me and purring
[12:03:48] <jadew> well, new should be implemented by the compiler especially in this case
[12:03:58] <specing> Jan-: is it?
[12:04:00] <jadew> when the compiler is specifically built for avrs
[12:04:04] <Jan-> Fraid so
[12:04:07] <Jan-> makes it hard to type
[12:04:11] <Jan-> she's sitting on my left shoulder
[12:04:51] <jadew> nevdull, you're saying new doesn't work by default?
[12:05:21] <amee2k> mmh, doesn't new need working malloc()?
[12:05:22] <nevdull> jadew: if memory serves, avr-gcc doesn't supply a new and delete
[12:05:37] <jadew> that's strange
[12:05:44] <amee2k> at least thats how it is on java
[12:06:13] <nevdull> http://www.nognu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/FAQ.html : The operators new and delte are not implemented, ...
[12:07:01] <jadew> looks like that domain expired
[12:07:20] <amee2k> haha yeah, it did
[12:07:21] <nevdull> sorry, s/nognu/nongnu
[12:07:25] <Steffanx> it's nongnu iirc
[12:07:25] <specing> Jan-: is she?
[12:07:25] <Steffanx> ah it is :P
[12:07:35] <amee2k> i only get a blank page with the title "sponsored listings"
[12:07:39] <jadew> thanks
[12:07:57] <Jan-> specing: uh. Yes?
[12:08:11] <specing> Jan-: or is she not?
[12:09:15] <Jan-> Why do you ask
[12:09:21] <amee2k> Jan- is da jay-lady *nod*
[12:09:32] <amee2k> next thing he'll ask is A/S/L
[12:09:42] <specing> ASL?
[12:09:49] <specing> Sorry, I had to ask :D
[12:09:56] <amee2k> :P
[12:10:25] <Jan-> I'm torn between saying "Jan sets specing and amee2k on fire" and just responding with "33, female, london"
[12:10:31] <Jan-> honesty can be so disarming :)
[12:10:41] <specing> Meh too far away
[12:10:42] <amee2k> why not do both?
[12:10:55] * specing loses interest
[12:11:25] <amee2k> london isn't too bad, but 33 is a bit old for me :/
[12:11:31] * amee2k is 24
[12:11:42] * specing is 19
[12:11:43] <Jan-> I met some friends of mine from California last weekend
[12:11:45] <specing> HO!
[12:11:47] <Jan-> she's 28
[12:11:51] <Jan-> he's 40
[12:11:58] <amee2k> 0.0
[12:12:00] <Jan-> they've been together five years and are very happy :)
[12:12:11] <amee2k> talk about impedance matching right there >_>
[12:12:34] <specing> 33 - 19 > 40 - 28
[12:13:06] <amee2k> but only by two years
[12:13:28] <Jan-> although I would say
[12:13:28] <Steffanx> You can do it specing
[12:13:31] <amee2k> thats less than 20% more
[12:13:32] <Jan-> she's got a very mature outlook
[12:13:47] <Jan-> she's an actor, and she regularly gets cast to play moms
[12:13:58] <specing> Steffanx: maybe, but london is just too far away
[12:14:00] <Steffanx> In dutch we would say "You have to learn it on an old bike" :P
[12:14:20] <amee2k> if i stick oranges into my shirt i could play some roles they call moms on tv
[12:14:30] <specing> indeed
[12:14:55] <amee2k> the dude from Quantum Leap played a mom twice i think
[12:15:03] * amee2k runs
[12:15:34] <Jan-> Izzy just left
[12:15:37] <Jan-> now I can type more :)
[12:15:41] <Steffanx> lo
[12:15:42] <Steffanx> l
[12:15:50] <specing> Izzy?
[12:15:58] <Jan-> she has such a beautiful soft coat
[12:16:04] <Jan-> Our cat :)
[12:16:10] <amee2k> hehe
[12:16:12] <specing> "Our"?
[12:16:18] <Jan-> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
[12:16:23] <Jan-> keyboard cat!
[12:16:47] <amee2k> on IRC, there are two legitimate reasons to have to type one-handed... petting a cat and err... nevermind >_>
[12:17:12] <Steffanx> amee2k .. you are 24!
[12:17:14] <specing> amee2k: normaly one does not type while ...
[12:17:16] <Jan-> Most Endearing Things About Men #11,382: They think girls don't get themselves off.
[12:17:25] <Steffanx> Not a 16 year old
[12:17:28] <amee2k> sometimes you can tell from the resulting typos which one is the case :P
[12:17:36] <amee2k> Steffanx: thats >18.
[12:17:51] <Steffanx> Yes, indeed
[12:17:58] <specing> Oh hey, a wild RikusW has appeared!
[12:17:59] <amee2k> now i'm too old but at least i can talk about it
[12:18:09] <Jan-> Capture the RikusW!
[12:18:12] * Jan- gives chase, swinging a large net
[12:18:12] <Steffanx> No, you are too old to talk about it like that
[12:18:13] <Steffanx> :P
[12:18:16] <RikusW> what did I miss ?!
[12:18:25] <Steffanx> Nothing
[12:18:27] <amee2k> nothing
[12:18:31] <amee2k> lol
[12:18:34] * RikusW runs
[12:18:38] <specing> absolutely nothing
[12:18:41] <amee2k> good choice
[12:19:07] <Jan-> RikusW: Ik sprak Afrikaans weer :)
[12:19:20] <Jan-> Er... Ek was die praat van afrikaans?
[12:19:28] * Jan- isn't very good at dutch-esque languages
[12:19:30] <amee2k> who died?
[12:19:35] <Steffanx> I did
[12:19:43] <amee2k> ah, then its okay
[12:19:43] <Steffanx> In the fps i play
[12:19:44] <RikusW> Ek praat weer Afrikaans
[12:19:50] <Steffanx> Ik praat Nederlands
[12:19:56] <specing> Steffanx plays a fps?!
[12:20:03] <Steffanx> Yes I do specing
[12:20:13] <specing> which one?
[12:20:15] <Steffanx> The best free FPS ever
[12:20:21] <specing> xonotic?
[12:20:22] <Jan-> oh god that's embarrassingly similar: mijn nederlands is beter dan mijn afrikaans
[12:20:22] <Steffanx> TrueCombate elite
[12:20:29] <specing> ...
[12:20:36] <Jan-> why is it that all languages are basically english?
[12:20:44] <Steffanx> An mod of Enemy territorry specing
[12:20:45] <RikusW> Jan-: it seems so ;)
[12:20:59] <Steffanx> *A
[12:21:07] <specing> Jan-: because you are a britfag
[12:21:22] <Jan-> I am not! What does that mean?
[12:21:22] <specing> Steffanx: I used to play ET
[12:21:26] <Steffanx> :)
[12:21:27] <RikusW> Jan-: word ordering is somewhat different in Afrikaans, but not much
[12:21:45] <Steffanx> And you use weird words RikusW
[12:21:50] <amee2k> in entirely unrelated news, did the one-click hoster industry get back on its feet again?
[12:21:54] <specing> Steffanx: I eventually gave up after mortar camping 24/7
[12:21:57] <RikusW> like ?
[12:22:08] <RikusW> as if you don't
[12:22:12] <Jan-> there was talk of the british army getting a helicopter called the rooivalk
[12:22:18] <Jan-> and that's a tongue twister even for afrikaans
[12:22:20] <Steffanx> You dont have mortars in this game specing
[12:22:33] <RikusW> Jan-: Red Falcon
[12:22:33] <Steffanx> And no cross hair.. i like that soo much
[12:22:35] <specing> YOU DO
[12:22:37] <RikusW> literal translation
[12:22:40] <Jan-> oh, OK
[12:22:41] <Steffanx> Not in this mod specing
[12:22:46] <specing> atleast in the original one
[12:22:50] <Jan-> apparently, they really kick ass :)
[12:22:50] <amee2k> Steffanx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50HXHcl8rbE << you mean, like these?
[12:23:03] <specing> Steffanx: do you have zookas'?
[12:23:04] <Steffanx> specing meant that
[12:23:17] <Steffanx> Nope specing
[12:23:32] <Steffanx> It actually just uses the engine of ET
[12:23:46] <RikusW> Steffanx: What you call a cat we consider a rude word....
[12:23:54] <Steffanx> We too RikusW
[12:23:57] * amee2k fondly remembers playing MOH:AA + wallhack + Stalingrad map at a lan party for 8 hours straight
[12:24:10] <Steffanx> wallhack..
[12:24:12] <specing> Steffanx: is it completely opensource though?
[12:24:17] <Steffanx> No
[12:24:17] <RikusW> and if you talk about a meid here you'll get thrown in jail for racism....
[12:24:21] <Steffanx> This mod isn't
[12:24:27] <specing> Aha
[12:24:33] <amee2k> Steffanx: its not cheating if everyone does it >_>
[12:24:38] <Steffanx> Hmpf
[12:24:40] <Steffanx> It's boring
[12:24:42] <specing> I know the engine is opensource
[12:24:50] <amee2k> quite the contrary, actually
[12:24:57] <specing> RikusW: meid?
[12:25:13] <Jan-> oh, OK. Izzy is now asleep on the table right next to the keyboard
[12:25:13] <RikusW> dutch for girl aparently
[12:25:13] <specing> wth is a meid?
[12:25:16] <Jan-> in fact almost ON the keyboard
[12:25:22] <amee2k> with that hack we only saw a shillouette of the other players through the wall so seeing them didn't neccessarily mean you knew where exactly they were
[12:25:28] <amee2k> only which direction
[12:25:46] <RikusW> but here its meaning changed somewhat, its a derogatory term for a black female servant
[12:26:03] <amee2k> so you need pretty good knowledge of the map to use it effectively, especially with indirect weapons like grenades or bazookas
[12:26:26] <specing> bazookas are not indirect
[12:26:33] <amee2k> sure they are
[12:26:37] <specing> they arent
[12:26:51] <amee2k> hide next to a window, a rocket comes in and hits the wall across, you're still dead
[12:27:13] <amee2k> that sounds like pretty indirect fire to me
[12:27:33] <specing> IRL that wall would be gone, so not indirect
[12:27:53] <amee2k> then the wall would be dead too, but you're still dead
[12:28:17] <specing> BUT IT IS A DIRECT WEAPON!!!!!!!!!1
[12:28:35] <amee2k> wallhacks effectively negate any advantage in camping too. actually quite the opposite because even if you find a place to hide reasonably well you're hosed after at most two kills
[12:28:45] <amee2k> your mom is a direct weapon
[12:29:00] <Jan-> RikusW: do you know if the word "mokopa" has a meaning in any african language
[12:29:34] * RikusW pulls out a sotho dictionary
[12:30:16] <Jan-> google translate doesn't think so
[12:31:51] <RikusW> Jan-: try just kopa ?
[12:32:17] <Jan-> nothing in afrikaans at least
[12:32:29] <RikusW> try sotho
[12:32:31] <RikusW> sesotho
[12:32:42] <RikusW> or zulu maybe ?
[12:32:51] <Jan-> I don't think that's a mainstream-enough language to appear
[12:32:55] <RikusW> where did you hear it ?
[12:33:13] <Jan-> But hey, I suspect there's more sotho speakers than afrikaans speakers, no?
[12:33:35] <Jan-> It's the name of a guided missile system carried by the rooivalk
[12:33:42] <RikusW> there is 12 different official languages here...
[12:33:43] <RikusW> but yes
[12:33:51] <Jan-> twelve? holy hell :/
[12:33:55] <Jan-> how many do you use regularly?
[12:33:57] <RikusW> yes
[12:34:06] <RikusW> afrikaans + english
[12:34:09] <Jan-> I guess it's important not to offend anyone.
[12:34:20] * RikusW know a little sesotho but can't speak it
[12:34:24] <Jan-> Given the, aheh, history
[12:34:59] <Jan-> argh cat attack
[12:34:59] <RikusW> kopa can mean to be surrounded
[12:35:07] <RikusW> than might make some sense
[12:35:11] <RikusW> *that
[12:35:13] <Jan-> hmm, yeah
[12:35:15] <Jan-> in which language
[12:35:22] <RikusW> sesotho
[12:35:44] * Jan- is forced to wiki
[12:35:45] <Jan-> a Bantu language spoken primarily in South Africa, where it is one of the 11 official languages, and in Lesotho, where it is the national language
[12:35:52] * Jan- files factoid away
[12:36:20] <RikusW> you get southern (sesotho) northern and western (setswana)
[12:36:33] <Jan-> I so want to visit africa
[12:36:35] <RikusW> 11 then...
[12:36:37] <Jan-> never been there
[12:36:58] <Jan-> maybe I shouldn't take "The Interpreter" so seriously as a movie :/
[12:38:10] <keenerd> Won't visit Australia, every animal is poisonous. But wants to visit Africa, where ever animal will maul you. I do not understand.
[12:38:27] <Jan-> Well there is that
[12:38:38] <Jan-> RikusW: how many times have you been killed by a lion?
[12:38:41] <Jan-> :)
[12:38:46] <RikusW> luckily there is no mamba snakes around where i live
[12:38:57] <RikusW> no lions around here either
[12:39:07] <Jan-> Roald Dahl talks about being stationed in east africa in the 1930s
[12:39:11] <Jan-> and being terrified of black mambas
[12:39:20] <Jan-> I mean really terrified
[12:39:32] <RikusW> in the northern part there is leopards and crocs
[12:39:48] <RikusW> they are agressive
[12:40:20] <Jan-> avoid eh
[12:40:20] <RikusW> fortunately none of them here
[12:40:20] <Jan-> remain inside car
[12:40:56] <RikusW> one guy drove over one with a tractor, the mamba bit him right on the tractor....
[12:41:27] <keenerd> So 'tractor' is slang for which body part?
[12:41:45] <RikusW> fortunately he had a thick jacket
[12:41:48] <Jan-> Dahl (a well known british author, dead now) tells a story of a guy catching snakes while wearing thick cowhide boots, and the snakes heads bouncing off the boots and leaving a little trickle of venom
[12:42:00] <RikusW> bit him on the back while he was on the tractor...
[12:42:14] <Jan-> mamba venom'll kill you, right?
[12:42:27] <RikusW> yes
[12:42:41] <Jan-> I don't want to go to africa anymore
[12:42:58] <Jan-> is there an antidote by now?
[12:43:06] <RikusW> just don't go to the northern part...
[12:43:10] <RikusW> yes there is
[12:43:12] <Jan-> Ah.
[12:43:13] <Jan-> An untreated black mamba bite has a mortality rate of 100%.,[6][7][8][9] but presently, fatalities have become much rarer due to wide availability of antivenom.
[12:43:18] <RikusW> but you must get it soon
[12:44:07] <RikusW> over in the north eastern freestate the is no big carnivores
[12:44:23] <RikusW> and only few snakes
[12:44:28] <RikusW> guess its to cold in winter
[12:44:34] <dirty_d> whoops, hooked up my avr with wrong polarity, got really hot, but still workin
[12:44:39] <dirty_d> lol
[12:44:56] <Jan-> how can you get away with that?!
[12:45:17] <Jan-> THEY'RE TEN FEET LONG!
[12:45:19] <keenerd> Carnivores aren't the only problem. Hippos and other large herbivores can kill people :-)
[12:45:21] <Jan-> Black mambas are ten feet long?!
[12:45:22] <RikusW> all the protection diodes conducted...
[12:45:34] <RikusW> none of them here either
[12:45:35] <dirty_d> yea
[12:45:41] <RikusW> more like 10m
[12:46:01] <RikusW> 30 feet
[12:46:12] <keenerd> RikusW: But SA has all those alien prawns. I saw it in a movie.
[12:46:14] <Jan-> common black mamba or black-mouthed mamba,[4] is the longest venomous snake in Africa, averaging around 2.5 to 3.2 meters (8.2 to 10 ft) in length, and sometimes growing to lengths of 4.45 meters (14.6 ft).
[12:46:22] <Jan-> that's huge :/
[12:46:23] * Jan- is afraid
[12:46:28] <RikusW> ah, district 6 ;)
[12:46:53] <RikusW> ok 4.5m then...
[12:47:02] <RikusW> but I havent seen any around here
[12:47:28] <Jan-> Phil might be going to Angola on a job
[12:47:32] <Jan-> but he's not convinced it's very safe
[12:47:35] <RikusW> I have seen puffadder and "rinkhals" here though
[12:47:51] <Jan-> there's a landmine issue, and they might not have mamba anti-venom :/
[12:48:18] <RikusW> and the politics...
[12:48:23] <Jan-> "Venomous snakebites are rampant in sub-Saharan Africa"
[12:48:26] <Jan-> - wikipedia
[12:48:50] <RikusW> depends on where you go
[12:48:59] <RikusW> probably not in the cities
[12:49:47] <RikusW> keenerd: or was it district 9 ?....
[12:50:45] * Jan- goes through the "venom" section of the "black mamba" wikipedia article with an expression of mounting horror
[12:51:05] <Jan-> RikusW: how do you guys ever make it to adulthood?
[12:51:23] <RikusW> As I told you, no mambas where I live
[12:51:24] <Tom_itx> we haven't
[12:51:38] <keenerd> Same way american kids do without getting shot, or UK kids without getting knifed. The risks are overstated an managable.
[12:51:48] <Jan-> One mamba bite killed a 7500 pound adult elephant!
[12:52:06] <keenerd> Well I am not an elephant, so that does not apply to me ;-)
[12:52:08] <RikusW> people in the northern part always carry shotguns and rifles
[12:52:20] <Jan-> Apparently you have less than an hour.
[12:53:27] <RikusW> there is porcupines over here though
[12:53:30] <keenerd> Whee, got my tree to work. Switch to breadth first stoage, then you only need to store one pointer to all the child nodes since they are sequential. 4x wider pointer instead.
[12:53:42] <Jan-> I read that the most dangerous animal in africa in terms of numbers of people killed are actually hippopotamus.
[12:54:29] <Jan-> they charge, or something
[12:54:34] <RikusW> fortunately no crocs or hippos here
[12:54:37] <RikusW> and bite
[12:54:46] <Jan-> crikey
[12:54:51] <Jan-> I'm not sure that's a way I'd like to go
[12:54:52] <RikusW> one bite and you're done
[12:55:04] <RikusW> or trampled
[12:55:25] <Jan-> they're not toxic though
[12:55:31] <Jan-> just huge and powerful, right?
[12:55:42] <RikusW> no just have BIG teeth
[12:55:49] <Jan-> Do you guys get Top Gear down there
[12:56:04] <RikusW> I've gotten it on PC
[12:56:10] <Jan-> did you see the botswana road trip episode?
[12:56:18] <RikusW> someone else downloaded it
[12:56:21] <RikusW> no
[12:56:28] <Jan-> oh you should, it's hilarious
[12:56:47] <RikusW> bad roads ? ;)
[12:56:56] <RikusW> or HUGE potholes ?
[12:57:06] <Jan-> but if you get the "extra features" version, there's a moment at night when they're camping out, and there's this white guy with an afrikaans-style accent and a huge rifle (their guide, presumably) standing there looking nervous.
[12:57:18] <Jan-> And they say, "what's the problem, it's just a hippo wallowing in the lake"
[12:57:23] <Jan-> and he says "exactly"
[12:59:20] * RikusW thinks this have become the #tvr channel now ;)
[12:59:25] <RikusW> TV review....
[12:59:35] * Jan- has now exhausted her knowledge of Hippopotamus amphibius
[12:59:52] <Jan-> there is a british company that makes computer gear called Green Hippo :)
[13:00:01] <Jan-> The portable version of their product is called HippoPortamus :)
[13:00:09] <RikusW> heh
[13:01:58] <RikusW> hippo in afrikaans is a "seekoei", literally sea cow
[13:04:58] <RikusW> Jan- is also a common afrikaans name for males ;)
[13:05:20] <Jan-> no kidding
[13:05:25] <Jan-> avr studio isn't very cripple friendly is it
[13:06:01] <Jan-> I have to "select debug platform and device"
[13:06:09] <keenerd> I hear emacs is very friendly though. Use linux, where to toolchains bend to you.
[13:06:13] <specing> Jan-: are you a cripple?
[13:06:16] <keenerd> *where tre
[13:06:24] <Jan-> AVD Dragon, AVR ONE!, AVR Simuator (2), ICE 200, 40, or 50, JTAG ICE, or JTAGICE MkII
[13:06:27] <Jan-> specing: I'm blind.
[13:06:41] <specing> I find that hard to believe
[13:06:49] <Jan-> what sort of debug device do I have?
[13:06:52] <Jan-> specing: so did I at first.
[13:07:01] <specing> You cannot be blind
[13:07:07] <Jan-> there doesn't seem to be a "none" option
[13:07:09] <specing> Its unpossible
[13:07:12] <RikusW> Jan-: I don't think you have one...
[13:07:13] <Jan-> specing: fraid so
[13:07:23] <specing> impossible
[13:07:34] <Jan-> specing: OK then.
[13:07:37] <specing> How would you see blinking leds if you were blind?
[13:07:37] <RikusW> Jan-: how about simulator ?
[13:07:52] <Jan-> specing: I won't.
[13:08:16] <specing> But then whats the point in doing uC?
[13:08:20] <Jan-> But if you like that, you'll love this: I used to work for Kodak :D
[13:08:28] <RikusW> Jan-: try AVR Simuator (2)
[13:08:35] <Jan-> RikusW: am doing
[13:09:06] <specing> HehehEhe
[13:09:20] <RikusW> Jan-: so how do you "see" the screen then ?
[13:09:30] <Jan-> RikusW: www.freedomscientific.com/jaws
[13:11:06] <specing> $1000 for a piece of winshit software?
[13:11:06] <RikusW> so you use speech or braille ?
[13:11:13] <keenerd> And if you are poor, I hear http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacSpeak is popular.
[13:11:14] <Jan-> speech
[13:11:29] <Jan-> braille is a tool of people who were born blind that they use to make the rest of us feel small.
[13:12:00] <Jan-> I have ATMEGA168-20PU chips. The options in AVR Studio are ATMEGA168, A, P and PA
[13:12:01] <specing> I still refuse to believe that you are blind
[13:12:13] <Jan-> specing: oh, all right then.
[13:12:33] <specing> So you are not blind?
[13:12:45] <Jan-> Hang on
[13:12:46] <Jan-> Let me check
[13:12:59] <Jan-> YES, now shut up and let me be ontopic for five seconds together
[13:13:16] <RikusW> Jan-: ATMEGA168
[13:13:23] <Jan-> what do the suffixes mean?
[13:13:36] <RikusW> PU means DIP package
[13:13:42] * Jan- is now editing c:\users\janh\documents\test.c
[13:14:20] <RikusW> Jan-: you can get for example ATMEGA168PA-20PU
[13:14:23] <Jan-> OK so let's assume I've written my code and I have Tom_itx's programmer plugged into a USB port and connected to a properly set up breadboard.
[13:14:28] <Jan-> Oh, OK, I see.
[13:14:34] <RikusW> the 20 says max 20MHz
[13:14:39] <Jan-> Yes I got the fastest ones :)
[13:15:12] <keenerd> Plain 168 has no temperature sensor, A does and P means it was binned into an expensive tighter tolerance.
[13:15:13] <RikusW> you use AVRISP mkII in AS4 to program
[13:15:40] <Jan-> these seem to be plain 168
[13:15:49] <Jan-> so no temperature sensor
[13:15:56] <Jan-> I guess I could have used that to do crystal correction... ohwell
[13:16:50] <Jan-> there's a warning about "gcc plugin: no avr toolchain found, the avr gcc plug-in can still be used if you set up your own build tools"
[13:17:20] <RikusW> you need to install WinAVR too
[13:17:28] <Jan-> \oh, OK, ten four
[13:18:37] <Jan-> crikey
[13:18:39] <RikusW> you have AVR Studio 4 ? AS4
[13:18:42] <Jan-> is the latest version 2010?
[13:18:48] <RikusW> AS5
[13:18:51] <Jan-> I have 4
[13:18:55] <Jan-> Tom_itx said it was simpler
[13:19:00] <RikusW> it is
[13:19:04] <Jan-> and possibly more suited for morons like me
[13:19:08] <Jan-> (he didn't say that bit)
[13:19:18] <RikusW> I still use it
[13:19:27] <Jan-> the most recent winavr seems to be 2010-01-20
[13:19:28] <karlp> some people who used AS4 hate AS5
[13:19:35] <RikusW> less frustrating and loads faster then AS5
[13:19:38] <RikusW> *than
[13:19:53] <RikusW> Jan-: seems about right
[13:19:59] <Jan-> not a very active project then :D
[13:20:01] <karlp> people who've never used as4 should perhaps make their own decisions?
[13:20:55] * RikusW have WinAVR20100110
[13:20:58] * Jan- is always a bit suspicious of program B that requires program A to be installed
[13:21:03] * Jan- finds it a source of unreliability
[13:21:25] * RikusW didn't have any problems with ti
[13:21:26] <RikusW> it
[13:21:27] <Jan-> and winavr is opensource :/
[13:21:44] <RikusW> except gcc can sometime mess around...
[13:21:51] <Jan-> ok well I installed winavr
[13:21:57] <Jan-> and it still says that same message
[13:22:31] <RikusW> restart AS4 ?
[13:22:36] <Jan-> I have
[13:22:46] <Jan-> do I need to tell it where the tools are somewhere
[13:24:33] <RikusW> which version of AS4 do you have ?
[13:24:37] <RikusW> 4.18 or 4.19 ?
[13:24:47] <Jan-> 4.19
[13:25:05] * RikusW have 4.18 SP3
[13:25:30] <RikusW> you might need the gnu toolchain on atmel.com
[13:25:39] <RikusW> but afaik that comes with 4.19
[13:25:41] <Jan-> oh ffs
[13:25:43] <RikusW> or it should
[13:25:46] <Jan-> what is it with open source software
[13:25:50] <Jan-> why is it always like this
[13:26:17] * RikusW don't intend upgrading to 4.19....
[13:27:49] <Jan-> well this sucks
[13:28:28] <Jan-> OK, do I want: Atmel AVR Toolchain 3.2.3 for Windows
[13:28:31] <RikusW> there was something on avrfreaks about this iirc
[13:28:38] <RikusW> 8 bit
[13:28:41] <RikusW> not 32 bit
[13:28:45] <RikusW> thats for avr32
[13:28:59] <Jan-> it doesn't say
[13:29:22] <Jan-> it's 94 megabytes!
[13:29:41] <RikusW> and you have a slow link ?
[13:32:07] <Jan-> nono
[13:32:11] <Jan-> I have super mad internet :)
[13:32:15] <Jan-> It goes at 40mbps
[13:32:30] <RikusW> oooh
[13:32:36] * RikusW only have gprs :(
[13:33:01] * Jan- has fttc
[13:33:05] <RikusW> you probably already downloaded that....
[13:33:40] <RikusW> gprs == 115kbps
[13:34:02] <Jan-> It took about half a minute
[13:34:27] <Jan-> you do notice how good someone else's servers are though
[13:34:41] <Jan-> fiber to the end of the street starts to reveal who sucks and who doesn't
[13:34:47] <RikusW> for me it will take like 2 or 3 hours
[13:35:10] <Jan-> oh hell
[13:35:16] <Jan-> 56kpbs modems are ancient history here
[13:35:42] <Jan-> and if I used my phone I could get 3g internet which is what, several hundred kbps
[13:36:17] <RikusW> no 3g on the farm....
[13:36:20] <RikusW> only gprs
[13:36:33] <Jan-> are you out of town
[13:36:53] <RikusW> yes
[13:37:37] <Jan-> I guess it's better in the big city
[13:38:24] <RikusW> the bigger towns do have 3g
[13:38:29] <RikusW> and adsl
[13:39:01] <Jan-> adsl is fading from memory here too :)
[13:39:17] <RikusW> there is wifi in the area but I'm just out of reach :(
[13:39:42] <RikusW> 45mbps wifi...
[13:39:54] <RikusW> over 20km or a bit more
[13:43:21] <specing> RikusW: directional antennas?
[13:44:27] <RikusW> yes
[13:44:30] <RikusW> dish like
[13:44:37] <RikusW> 260 Euro
[13:44:48] <RikusW> with receiver
[13:44:56] <specing> DIY dish?
[13:45:09] <RikusW> no
[13:45:22] <specing> You can't do one yourself?
[13:45:27] <RikusW> but I'm not in line of sight to the tower :(
[13:45:41] <specing> build your own tower :D
[13:46:02] <RikusW> repeater = 260 E * 3
[13:46:15] <RikusW> so 780 Euro
[13:46:19] <RikusW> for a link
[13:46:20] <specing> RikusW: Do you see it from the top of your house?
[13:46:24] <RikusW> no
[13:46:31] <specing> even if you stand on the roof?
[13:46:37] <RikusW> from the top of a nearby hill
[13:47:09] <RikusW> maybe get a neighbor to sign up
[13:47:16] <RikusW> then its only 2x 260E
[13:47:49] <RikusW> there is a hill directly in the way...
[14:10:02] <carp3> By chance, does anyone know how many clocks atan2 ( in math.h ) take ?
[14:11:20] <Jan-> Hey! We got the error messages to go away
[14:14:14] <Jan-> now I just have to wait for the Shenzen InstaSplode corporation to get that rs232 thing to me
[14:21:57] <amee2k> carp3: considering that avr doesn't have an fpu, probably a lot and it would surprise me if the execution time was constant
[14:25:46] <carp3> is it more than 2-3ms ? ( in 8mhz )
[14:27:03] <amee2k> hmm 3ms @ 8MHz is 24k clock cycles. could be. if you have a scope, then measuring it would be easy
[14:27:26] <amee2k> if you don't and can wait ~30 minutes, then i can try measuring it on my megaX8
[14:27:31] <Steffanx> Simulator?
[14:27:52] <Steffanx> A simulator can be useful to check the amount of cycles used
[14:33:46] <amee2k> counting off clocks on the assembler output works too :P
[14:34:06] <Steffanx> Yeah, write a script for it
[14:34:18] <Steffanx> aka a simulator
[14:43:31] <jacekowski> http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/benchmarks.html
[14:45:24] <OndraSter> carp3, grab good ol' 80487 FPU and with a bit of hacking, connect it to the atmega :))
[14:45:43] <carp3> 2857 clocks ? much better than what i expected
[14:46:01] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser do you know what as4 4.19 has in it over 4.18?
[14:46:19] <Tom_itx> that must have been released after as5
[14:46:22] <Tom_itx> i didn't notice it
[14:46:38] <OndraSter> yeah
[14:46:44] <mrfrenzy> is there no changelog?
[14:46:47] <OndraSter> 4.19 is quite new
[14:46:50] <OndraSter> sure there is
[14:46:56] <Tom_itx> i didn't look
[14:47:01] <Tom_itx> that's what abcminiuser is for :)
[14:47:20] <abcminiuser> 4.19 is the three packs rolled into one, plus a few fixes
[14:47:39] <abcminiuser> (That is, 4.18 + SP1-SP3 plus some extra part support)
[14:48:06] <Tom_itx> somebody here just mentioned you need to get gnu for it
[14:48:41] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser, ok i posted the updates
[14:50:45] <carp3> OndraSter: http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/80487/index.html WOW you mean this ? prefer to use avr32 or something smaller :)
[14:50:56] <OndraSter> it was joke dude :D
[14:52:38] <abcminiuser> Tom_itx, you need GNU for it?
[14:52:46] <Tom_itx> i dunno
[14:52:56] <abcminiuser> ^ Oh good, moving to QA branch tomorrow
[14:53:05] <abcminiuser> Want to get the current code out ASAP
[14:53:22] <Tom_itx> i grabbed it this morning and posted it so it's current as to your pushes
[14:53:33] <Tom_itx> check the description to see if it's accurate
[14:53:35] <Tom_itx> please
[14:54:16] <Tom_itx> at the bottom here; http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[14:56:00] <carp3> With this code. it takes only 2.13uS . acceptable . amee2k http://pastebin.com/Ps6kgjRa
[14:56:33] <amee2k> wow, that is quite efficient for an 8-bitter
[14:57:02] <Tom_itx> it glows when running
[14:57:13] <amee2k> o.O
[14:57:21] <amee2k> i think they need a wall wart to run off mains >_>
[14:57:37] <Steffanx> On 8MHz carp3 ?
[14:57:53] <carp3> Steffanx: yes
[14:58:19] <amee2k> OndraSter: does anyone even still make x87 coprocessors?
[14:58:30] <OndraSter> sure, Intel, AMD
[14:58:33] <OndraSter> just built into the main CPU :P
[14:58:36] <amee2k> lol
[14:58:41] <carp3> i compiled with -s0 . code is OK ? http://pastebin.com/Ps6kgjRa
[14:58:43] <amee2k> obviously i meant discrete coprocessors
[14:59:02] <amee2k> not just incorporating the instructions into another ALU
[14:59:17] <carp3> -O0*
[14:59:28] <Steffanx> Sure that's right carp3? 17 cycles is pretty fast
[15:04:42] <nevdull> amee2k: http://www.awce.com/pak1.htm : math coprocessor for avrs
[15:05:10] <carp3> chatzilla crashed.
[15:05:39] <carp3> i forgot to link libm.a :p
[15:07:13] <dirty_d> hmm, so the highest i2c frew you cna get with 8mhz is 333.3kHz?
[15:07:31] <dirty_d> 8000000 / (16 + 2*1*4^1)
[15:12:03] <buhman> what are the best stores that sell cheap electronic components?
[15:12:18] <buhman> (controllers, resistors, leds, crystals, etc...)
[15:12:24] <amee2k> you mean online stores?
[15:12:27] <amee2k> or walk-in kind
[15:14:17] <buhman> amee2k: heh, I doubt there are any good walk-in stores
[15:15:11] <buhman> and there isn't nearly as much opportunity for research in the walk-in stores anyway
[15:15:55] <mrfrenzy> farnell, digikey, mouser, rsonline
[15:16:04] <mrfrenzy> surelectronics
[15:20:50] <keenerd> If you are new and not buying much stuff, Jameco is nice. Not the best selection but a great catalog that you can read in a single afternoon.
[15:21:37] <carp3> Steffanx: it takes 380us with this code( http://pastebin.com/jPQkq3RZ ) . amee2k .
[15:26:27] <buhman> mrfrenzy: thanks
[15:38:11] <amee2k> does anyone know of the existance of I2C address translator ICs? lots of i2c stuff only has a few bits of the address configurable, what i want is a chip that i can put between the shared bus lines and the ICs in question that will remap addresses or address ranges
[15:38:53] <amee2k> i'm in bit of a pinch because i've got some address collisions because addresses are not configurable enough :/
[15:43:53] <amee2k> and i need at least two devices with address 0x50 remapped to something else, say, 0x40, 0x41, ...
[15:44:09] <grummund> the computer says yes
[15:44:39] <grummund> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=I2C+address+translator
[15:48:37] <jadew> optimization in the gcc toolchain works really weird
[15:48:54] <jadew> if I remove a piece of code I get a bigger sized program
[15:51:21] <grummund> x=0; while(x) { do_stuff(); }
[15:51:46] <grummund> now delete the first statement and watch the code size increase
[15:52:00] <amee2k> grummund: well, then tell me one of the part numbers that your computer tells you
[15:52:02] <jadew> it's not like that
[15:52:24] <jadew> the piece of code actually does something and it doesn't affect other stuff
[15:52:58] <grummund> PCA9547 looks interesting, although not specifically what you asked for
[15:54:00] <amee2k> it is not at all what i asked for, yes
[15:54:50] <grummund> you may return it for a refund any time within 7 days
[15:55:15] <amee2k> got any others?
[15:57:00] <amee2k> no?
[15:57:34] <grummund> refund not satisfactory, you want a working replacement instead?
[15:58:05] <amee2k> yes, please
[16:00:49] <grummund> computer says no, sorry.
[16:01:10] <amee2k> i know it says no >_>
[16:01:27] <amee2k> thats what it told me before i started asking real people too
[16:51:56] <dirty_d> someone wanna take a look at this TWI code
[16:52:08] <dirty_d> i must be missing something
[16:52:08] <dirty_d> http://pastebin.com/cByGPX3S
[16:53:11] <specing> dirty_d: indeed
[16:53:18] <specing> (1 << TXEN)
[16:53:19] <dirty_d> what is it?
[16:53:25] <specing> err, TWIEN
[16:53:33] <specing> *TWEN
[16:53:46] <specing> those defines are bit positions, not values
[16:54:01] <dirty_d> ahhh
[16:54:34] <dirty_d> i was writing xmega code yesterday, lol
[16:54:44] <dirty_d> uses masks instead
[16:55:29] <specing> Also, instead of filling your if/other clauses with heaps of bitwise math, you could use functions like bit_is_set(byte, bit) and alike
[16:56:10] <dirty_d> yea i knwo im just messing around
[16:56:15] <dirty_d> it works now
[16:56:24] <specing> [they are already defined (look at sfr*.h)]
[16:56:58] <specing> :D
[17:02:48] <Tom_itx> what's that header intended for?
[17:03:36] <Tom_itx> there's also a twi.h
[17:05:46] <Tom_itx> 'special functions registers'
[17:06:31] <specing> It also has those defines for dealing with bitwise math in a more human friendly fashion
[17:20:35] <dirty_d> well the thing responded with an ACK so i guess its soldered on righ and not fried, lol
[17:20:35] <dirty_d> first time trying QFN24
[17:21:10] <Tom_itx> fun
[17:23:14] <jadew> can't believe the difference in documentation between two products from the same company
[17:23:36] <Tom_itx> maybe they hired new help
[17:23:41] <jadew> one has really crappy docs (the one I got), the other one is 1$ more expensive and has extensive docs
[17:24:09] <jadew> the only difference is that the "expensive" one has backlight
[17:24:32] <jadew> Tom_itx, could be, but it's strange
[17:24:36] <Tom_itx> yeah
[17:24:41] <Tom_itx> OLED or what?
[17:24:48] <jadew> just a lcd
[17:25:06] <Tom_itx> must be graphic
[17:25:08] <Casper> this is why sometime it's worth to look at submodels
[17:25:09] <jadew> wish I knew about the other one's docs before I finished interfacing it
[17:25:37] <jadew> Tom_itx, nope, alphanumeric
[18:24:00] <dirty_d> success
[18:26:49] <Tom_itx> always good
[19:09:56] <Jan-> hello
[19:09:57] <tobbor> Hello Jan-
[19:10:01] * Jan- is, for some reason, awake
[19:11:38] <Jan-> oh hi tobbor
[19:11:44] <Jan-> er, this is kind of awkward, but...
[19:11:50] <Jan-> are you also rue_mohr
[19:11:55] <CapnKernel> no he's not
[19:12:03] <Tom_itx> tobbor doesn't answer
[19:12:06] <Tom_itx> it's a bot
[19:12:09] <Jan-> Oh.
[19:12:12] <Jan-> Hello, tobbor!
[19:12:15] <Tom_itx> programmed to randomly say hi
[19:12:16] * Jan- pokes tobbor
[19:12:21] <Jan-> *clank*
[19:12:49] <Jan-> how come everyone is still here
[19:12:52] <CapnKernel> !seen Tom_L
[19:12:52] <tobbor> Tom_L was last seen in #garfield on Feb 04 10:42 2012
[19:12:54] <Jan-> isn't it night-time where you all are
[19:13:06] <Tom_itx> no
[19:13:08] <Tom_itx> evening
[19:13:13] <CapnKernel> Morning here
[19:13:13] <Tom_itx> 7:04pm
[19:13:17] <CapnKernel> 9am
[19:13:48] <Jan-> blergh
[19:13:53] <Jan-> I hardly know what time it is
[19:14:07] <Jan-> This cold is turning into full blown flu
[19:14:12] * Jan- suffers horribly
[19:16:02] <Tom_itx> tell us what you've done with avrs so far
[19:17:17] <Jan-> I've waited nearly 4 hours for that RS232 thing to get here
[19:17:21] <Jan-> blargh
[19:17:35] <Jan-> then I spent some time lying around feeling rough
[19:17:37] <Jan-> you?
[19:18:23] <Jan-> ...ok I'll go elsewhere
[19:18:25] * Jan- gets her coat
[19:20:37] <Tom_itx> mmmm
[20:35:09] <multiplex> hello after a fresh install of avrlibc i can't compile /avr-libc-1.7.1/doc/examples/stdiodemo/ lcd.c:41:3: error: too few arguments to function 'hd44780_wait_ready'
[20:36:33] <x1050us> hello
[20:38:06] <multiplex> this is surprising for a demo
[20:40:47] <x1050us> I am trying to erase my avr atmega644pa using usbasp, but it doest seem to work. The device signature, fuses and lock bits are readable
[20:41:01] <x1050us> any pointers ?
[20:43:12] <multiplex> not for me sorry
[20:48:13] <multiplex> i'm looking for a usb programmer that supports the -E option of avrdude. which do you recommend. i've a STK500v2 compatible buy on ebay
[20:48:22] <Tom_itx> E?
[20:48:28] <Tom_itx> what is that one?
[20:48:37] <Tom_itx> of course i recomend mine
[20:50:12] <multiplex> -E exitspec[,exitspec]
[20:50:12] <multiplex> By default, avrdude leaves the parallel port in the same state at exit as it
[20:50:12] <multiplex> has been found at startup. This option modifies the state of the ‘/RESET’
[20:50:18] <Tom_itx> that has to do with a parallel port
[20:50:27] <Tom_itx> how does it affect USB?
[20:50:37] <multiplex> ok
[20:50:51] <multiplex> i was not sure
[20:51:26] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[20:51:26] <Tom_itx> just made a new batch
[20:56:00] <multiplex> cool site, i put a bookmark
[20:57:10] <Guest73215> damn netsplits
[21:00:06] <multiplex> Tom_garage: i begin with ECM2 and a mini CNC
[21:02:18] -card.freenode.net:#avr- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
[21:03:43] -pratchett.freenode.net:#avr- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
[21:05:06] <Tom_itx> !thislog
[21:05:07] <tobbor> This one: http://rueshouse.dyndns.org:82/~ircjunk/irclogs/html/%23avr-2012-02-05.html
[21:06:08] <Tom_itx> dirty_d i take it you got yours
[21:06:24] <dirty_d> yup
[21:07:05] <Tom_itx> yeah i think it's one of the quicker ones out there
[21:07:29] <Tom_itx> multiplex, you do emc too?
[21:09:26] <multiplex> yes i begin that work but I do not understand everything yet
[21:10:00] <Tom_itx> i got my sherline wired up with it
[21:10:14] <Tom_itx> but i still use the original control until i can find time to finish it
[21:10:38] <Tom_itx> made a pendant for it etc with a couple mesa cards
[21:12:57] <multiplex> i i've buy a cnc to a friend, i've just intalled emc2 in remplacement of mach3
[21:13:35] <Tom_itx> multiplex, where are you btw?
[21:14:30] <dirty_d> Tom_itx, ive got it hooked up to this http://cisweb.bristolcc.edu/~klabs/mega.jpg
[21:15:15] <Tom_itx> made your own boards?
[21:15:42] <dirty_d> yea
[21:16:04] <dirty_d> im surprised how good this UV exposure method works
[21:16:37] <multiplex> i'm french sorry for my english it's an enorm problem for me
[21:16:38] <dirty_d> if my toner didnt print with so many pinholes i think i could easily get 0.005" traces
[21:16:50] <dirty_d> not that i really have any use for that
[21:16:55] <Tom_itx> multiplex, np i just knew you weren't english :)
[21:17:33] <Tom_itx> dirty_d, yeah i get around .006 or .008 with toner transfer
[21:17:35] <multiplex> I took it as a resolution to remedy this year
[21:17:55] <dirty_d> wow
[21:18:03] <dirty_d> i didnt think that was possible with toner transfer
[21:19:06] <Tom_itx> i'll dazzle you a bit more
[21:19:09] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyTPI1.jpg
[21:19:16] <Tom_itx> there's 3 traces under that
[21:19:45] <Tom_itx> tiny10 sot23-6
[21:20:46] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard2.jpg
[21:21:45] <dirty_d> wow
[21:22:35] * CapnKernel likes the UV photo method...
[21:22:36] <dirty_d> ahh crap, you cant make PCINT pins only trigger on one edge right?
[21:22:46] <Tom_itx> no
[21:23:21] <Tom_itx> makes for nice quadrature code though
[21:34:53] <dirty_d> i guess i can check the state of the pin in the isr to see what edge right?
[21:35:06] <Tom_itx> probably
[21:36:33] <CapnKernel> Yes but do it fast or the pin state may change again before you get around to it
[22:17:39] <CapnKernel> Is it just me, or is Element14 down in a big way? http://au.element14.com/
[22:19:29] <Tom_itx> http://www.element14.com/community/index.jspa
[22:19:34] <Tom_itx> not that big