#avr | Logs for 2012-01-26

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[01:11:02] <Roklobsta> teknojuce: i'd like to havea siggen capable of 200MHz to test the cro at 150Mhz.
[01:33:06] <Kevin`> Roklobsta: you don't necessarily need to send a 200mhz signal, a square wave at a lower frequency will have plenty of harmonics to look at
[01:33:33] <Roklobsta> of course. i want to be pedantic and see where the -3dB point is though.
[01:33:40] <Roklobsta> with a wingle sine
[01:41:46] <Casper> Kevin`: it's funny how infinite frequency and 0 Hz are easy to make :D
[01:42:01] <Casper> but how hard anything in between is
[01:50:17] <Kevin`> infinite?
[01:53:10] <Casper> yeah, everything have infinite frequency component :D
[01:53:22] <Casper> specially squarewave
[01:54:26] <ziph> Infinite signals can have finite bandwidths.
[01:54:43] <ziph> It's just that no finite signal has a finite bandwidth.
[02:32:27] <Roklobsta> er sine waves only have one frequency component.
[02:33:25] <Roklobsta> and for all intents and purposes zero bandwidth.
[03:03:57] <ziph> Roklobsta: Actually they have two.
[03:05:00] <Roklobsta> yeah ok, real and imaginary components but these are still the one frequency in a sine wave.
[03:05:13] <ziph> No, positive and negative frequency.
[03:07:14] <Roklobsta> nup
[03:09:35] <ziph> Nup what? :)
[03:47:46] <karlp> TeknoJuce: congratulations! I was trying and failing to ge the rigol software to work.
[03:48:04] <karlp> could you say what versions of the nist stuff and rigol software you have installed? maybe I can get it to work afterall?
[04:08:12] <nerxgas> anyone here use beagleboard? i want to access the io pins to communicate with an avr
[04:09:16] <ziph> Isn't it just some /dev/blah driver you can write or ioctl to?
[04:10:22] <Kevin`> nerxgas: what interface do you want to use?
[04:10:58] <nerxgas> spi
[04:11:32] <Kevin`> that should work well enough. be sure to set the clock rate low enough for the avr
[04:12:05] <Kevin`> and you might need a voltage translator, the beagleboard stuff is 1.8v. avr can run on that of course, but most people use higher
[04:13:28] <nerxgas> right, i forgot about that
[04:13:36] <nerxgas> got to remember that
[04:27:29] <amee2k> hmm
[04:27:36] <amee2k> laser range finder, IP54, max 50m for 70EUR
[05:35:02] <cmartin0> what are the mirooperations for ST Y, R5?
[05:37:49] <karlp> you want someone else to look up the instruction set manual for you?
[05:39:24] <_abc_> karlp: of course. Everyone comes here for others to do their stuff :)
[05:39:44] <karlp> there are varying levels of doing things for you though.
[05:41:02] <_abc_> such as no hemorrhoids serviced on this channel :)
[05:43:05] <TeknoJuce> karlp, http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/2659/lang/en
[05:44:36] <cmartin0> The AVR instruction set pdf does not list the micro operation
[05:46:22] * RikusW haven't seen that listed anywhere yet...
[06:02:47] <karlp> TeknoJuce: cool, just that, and which rigol software?
[06:09:26] <pingec> can i inspect the memory in as4 when debugging via debugwire?
[06:10:51] <pingec> ahh found it
[06:11:38] <amee2k> wb Steffanx :)
[06:12:41] <amee2k> Steffanx: did i want to show you the schematic, or the LED board layout draft?
[06:12:52] <Steffanx> Yes
[06:13:43] <amee2k> mmh, which one
[06:13:46] <amee2k> >_>
[06:14:08] <amee2k> right, atmega was the schem
[06:14:45] <amee2k> Steffanx: ompldr.org/vY2c5NQ/led-board_3-4.pdf << rough draft. i'll probably need more area for the driver and support circuitry than indicated but the general size and emitter position is pretty much final
[06:14:55] <amee2k> or it won't get significantly smaller at least
[06:15:18] <pingec> why does as4 not allow me to drag the memory window around?
[06:15:27] <pingec> it's in the way :/
[06:15:44] <amee2k> the mounting drawing with the thermal spacer is for the test fixture only. the need for the spacer can be eliminated by suitable case design
[06:15:44] <Steffanx> Powered by Photoshop or what .. amee2k ?
[06:15:53] <amee2k> photoshop?
[06:15:57] <Steffanx> Visio?
[06:16:06] <amee2k> visio?
[06:16:15] <amee2k> "visio"? even
[06:16:15] <Steffanx> What did you use to draw it :P
[06:16:19] <amee2k> OOo
[06:16:34] <Steffanx> *help* :P
[06:16:48] <amee2k> doesn't it say so in the pdf?
[06:17:16] <amee2k> also, how come people are always fascinated by what program i used to draw stuff, rather than the actual content >_>
[06:17:34] <Steffanx> What you drew is pretty clear :P
[06:17:57] <amee2k> so what is the problem?
[06:18:07] <Steffanx> Problem?
[06:18:15] <amee2k> yes
[06:18:53] <karlp> amee2k: what are you making?
[06:19:13] <amee2k> karlp: power LED module with serial control interface
[06:19:16] <Steffanx> I still don't see when you can't split it into multiple modules amee2k
[06:19:26] <karlp> also, yes, when you provide some interesting diagrams, people are curious if they can make them too :)
[06:19:54] <amee2k> Steffanx: because i don't see much advantage in that
[06:20:03] <Steffanx> $$$ :p
[06:20:25] <Steffanx> There's probably no other advantage
[06:20:26] <amee2k> the total board area won't change much, and there is only limited point in prototyping something that has nothing anymore to do with the final device
[06:21:26] <amee2k> the price problem is really only the prototyping... finding someone who will sell you 50 boards is easier than finding someone to make 2-3
[06:22:06] <amee2k> for 50 boards i don't have problems getting them for 5$ or even less
[06:22:18] <karlp> where are you getting 50+ boards made?
[06:22:40] <amee2k> right now nowhere because i want a few prototypes first
[06:23:00] <amee2k> i have no idea if it is going to run like this anyway
[06:23:25] <amee2k> but actually, ordering like 20 boards and throwing 17 away isn't much more expensive than ordering only 3 to begin with
[06:23:30] <amee2k> from some board houses anyway
[06:23:38] <karlp> well, where were you referring to when you said it was easy to get 50 boards, which board house have you been using? (we're still evaluating for some mid sized runs)
[06:24:28] <amee2k> don't remember... i saw some last week who would do huge boards really cheap but they only sold whole boards at once
[06:25:17] <amee2k> easily enough for 10 module boards and for ~100EUR but at that stage that is useless for me
[06:25:50] <amee2k> by the time i've got a tested and production ready design i'll have to look around again anyway because prices change
[06:28:03] <amee2k> Steffanx: if i split it into 5x5cm boards, one board can barely hold two LEDs but not even with the correct emitter spacing
[06:28:47] <amee2k> and i'd either have to make another board with the driver and support circuitry, or find out how to split it up across all emitter boards that doesn't result in an utter mess of off-board connections
[06:29:47] <amee2k> that would leave me with at least three 5x5cm boards, and probably 5
[06:29:50] <Steffanx> I didn't say it's better.. but it's the only way to make it cheaper. You complained about the costs :)
[06:30:14] <amee2k> 5 5x5 boards isn't cheaper than one 6x20
[06:30:31] <Steffanx> Depends on who makes it..
[06:31:02] <amee2k> or at least not by much. i'd rather pay another 5$ then to have a prototype with the actual layout (which i'd want anyway before i order a larger amount of boards
[06:33:32] <Steffanx> It's all up to you :P
[06:34:58] <amee2k> if you can show me that it is an advantage i'm happy to stand corrected. i just can't see any from my end :)
[06:35:57] <Steffanx> The only advantage is probably only the cost.. like i said before
[06:36:21] <amee2k> right. but i don't see how that could happen
[07:37:31] <pingec> I have 2 devices talking via uart. Is there a way I could hook up my PC to see what they are transmitting?
[07:39:08] <keenerd> It is easy if you have two serial ports. Use each's Rx line to sniff.
[07:42:07] <pingec> I see, great idea
[07:42:18] <pingec> will buy some more serial adapters
[07:42:29] <amee2k> hehe
[07:42:52] <amee2k> i wonder if you could do a dual RX-only UART with a buspirate and suitable software
[07:45:37] <karlp> you can probably do some tricks with socat.
[07:45:47] <karlp> but I don't know the magic syntax off the top of my head.
[08:05:38] <SilicaGel> what usb jtag software and cheap hardware do people recommend for a linux development host?
[08:07:25] <amee2k> from what i remember, none. everyone is waiting for an open source jtagice clone
[08:07:34] <SilicaGel> rats.
[08:08:09] <amee2k> i don't have much use for jtag yet, but i have a similar problem :)
[08:08:21] <SilicaGel> well this thing is cheap
[08:08:21] <SilicaGel> http://www.adafruit.com/products/46
[08:08:28] <amee2k> 200+ bucks for a stinking programmer is ridiculous
[08:09:14] <amee2k> SilicaGel: it is because it doesn't do jtag ;)
[08:09:19] <SilicaGel> oh i see
[08:09:42] <SilicaGel> well why can't you just use a generic ftdi based jtag adapter
[08:09:48] <SilicaGel> this is what's really pissing me off to tell you the truth
[08:10:00] <amee2k> i vaguely recall that the avr dragon does jtag, but don't take my word for it, or that it has reasonable software support
[08:10:01] <SilicaGel> the fact that I have separate devices for ARMS, MSP430s and now this
[08:10:16] <Kevin`> SilicaGel: you could, if you had software that could control it. it hasn't been completely reverse engineered
[08:10:40] <Kevin`> avr dragon does jtag
[08:11:22] <SilicaGel> woah, look at this http://wiki.seabright.co.nz/wiki/AvrdudeAndFtdi.html
[08:12:14] <Kevin`> the PROGRAMMING protocol, even over jtag, is documented
[08:12:18] <Kevin`> you can do that part with anything
[08:12:20] <SilicaGel> oh i see
[08:12:24] <SilicaGel> i see where i am fouled up
[08:12:31] <SilicaGel> what I need is AVR_SPI_PRG_6PIN not JTAG
[08:12:47] <SilicaGel> I didn't realize that; I should have lookd more carefully at the schematic. It's not JTAG at all.
[08:13:14] <Kevin`> almost all the chips have debugging. does that one have debugwire?
[08:13:27] <SilicaGel> man i don't know. I haven't gotten that far.
[08:13:33] <Kevin`> datasheet says
[08:14:10] <Kevin`> on the 8bit stuff, debugging can be done over debugwire, jtag, pdi
[08:14:41] <SilicaGel> is "debugwire" the 6-pin SPI interface?
[08:14:50] <Kevin`> no, it's a one-pin interface
[08:15:03] <Kevin`> the only spi-like interfaces are isp and jtag
[08:15:15] <SilicaGel> ISP is probably waht i want then
[08:15:26] <keenerd> http://urjtag.org/book/_usage.html
[08:15:31] <keenerd> http://www.larsen-b.com/Article/315.html
[08:15:32] <Kevin`> isp doesn't do debugging, do you want debugging?
[08:15:38] <SilicaGel> not initially
[08:15:41] <keenerd> Two options for jtag under linux.
[08:16:30] <Kevin`> keenerd: the generic jtag tools (there's three of them or so, I think, that have relatively wide hardware support) don't work with avr because the protocol isn't well documented
[08:16:58] <keenerd> Though urjtag looks like it only supports jtag-serial bridges?
[08:17:25] <keenerd> I imagine the Dragon based jtag works fine on AVR ;-)
[08:17:29] <Kevin`> avr dragon does part of the protocol internally, it's just a jtag interface
[08:17:42] <Kevin`> you can use it, but you can't replace it with something generic easily
[08:17:45] <SilicaGel> ok debugwire goes through the /RESET pin. Crazy haha
[08:18:36] <SilicaGel> so maybe the best bet is for me to find a device that does ISP + DebugWire that works with gdb and ... something to flash it, usbprog maybe, or avrdude
[08:20:11] <Kevin`> SilicaGel: that would be an avr dragon
[08:20:24] <SilicaGel> oh ok
[08:20:39] <SilicaGel> avrdude's docs say it supports the $22 USBTinyISP but that'd be ISP only I thik not ISP + DebugWire
[08:20:47] <keenerd> SilicaGel: Like I said before http://www.larsen-b.com/Article/315.html
[08:20:47] <Kevin`> right
[08:21:25] <SilicaGel> ah ok
[08:21:27] <SilicaGel> ok but
[08:21:37] <SilicaGel> an AVRDragon is only 50 bucks and it does all this stuff?
[08:22:06] <SilicaGel> that tells me I should skip being a cheapskate and just get one
[08:22:29] <Steffanx> Stop being a cheapskate and get an AVR Dragon
[08:22:49] <SilicaGel> OK.
[08:24:24] <Steffanx> :P
[08:24:46] <karlp> if you want debugging on avr, dragon is far and away the cheapest
[08:25:03] <Kevin`> SilicaGel: you can also make a programmer with one of the avr chips you have in your stack of random parts, btw. that's sometimes nice since you can stick it on stuff or not worry about it breaking for $2
[08:26:38] <SilicaGel> Yeah. I don't have such a stockpile for AVR, I've never done anything with AVR. My uC experience is arm7tmdi, cortex-m3, msp430, old school 68HCXX, DSP56F8XXX, and the like. One of the reasons I'm doing this is to play with an AVR something beacuse they're cheap and so widely used
[08:27:46] <keenerd> Ah. You know you don't really need jtag just to fool around with AVR?
[08:27:55] <Kevin`> well he does now.
[08:28:19] <SilicaGel> yeah. I didn't realize all I needed was ISP (via SPI) prior to this conversation.
[08:28:43] <SilicaGel> And I understand I don't really NEED DebugWire but the marginal price difference is $28 so why not
[08:28:57] <keenerd> Does DW work under linux?
[08:29:34] <SilicaGel> I haven't found details about precisely how it works but there's a gdb for avr, and I saw some references to an openocd fork
[08:29:35] <SilicaGel> so I *think* so
[08:29:46] <Kevin`> keenerd: yeah
[08:30:06] <SilicaGel> Good lord, $19 shipping
[08:30:21] <SilicaGel> It better be delivered by a naked woman on a horse for that kind of money
[08:30:23] <Kevin`> SilicaGel: find a local distributor
[08:31:43] <SilicaGel> yeah. mouser!
[08:32:21] <SilicaGel> perhaps I will, as a bonus, stave off U.S. Postal Service bankruptcy for a few precious seconds
[08:52:08] <amee2k> what is the predominant failure mode of ceramic caps under sustained high ripple current?
[08:55:46] <theBear> maybe 'microphonic'/physically sensitive, from what i know, but thats more hv valveamp stuff
[08:57:05] <amee2k> not sure what microphonic stuff has to do with failure
[08:57:22] <karlp> piezo effect
[08:57:30] <karlp> I guess he meant that it would fracture?
[08:57:31] <amee2k> lets say i can assume a low vibration environment
[08:57:48] <karlp> no, ceramic caps _are_ piezo tranducers when you ripple them :)
[08:58:00] <amee2k> ooh hmm.
[08:58:15] <karlp> it's some regulators specify tantalum
[08:58:27] <karlp> and some regus advertise it as a feature that "only ceramic caps are necessary"
[08:58:35] <amee2k> does that mean ceramic caps are more sensitive to ripple voltage rather than current then?
[08:58:36] <karlp> it's _why_ some ...
[08:58:45] <Kevin`> tantalum's primary feature is higher capacity per size
[08:58:52] <karlp> I only know often to make up shit, I don't have enough real details on this.
[08:58:56] <amee2k> from what i recall tant caps suck ESR wise
[08:59:06] <amee2k> which is not so hot for high ripple applications
[08:59:49] <theBear> amee2k, i mean they become super-microphonic when they fail, often, in high voltage + current (relative to size) situations
[08:59:50] <amee2k> still working on that LED drivers and just realized 150+kHz is enough to get away without shitty electrolytics
[08:59:59] <theBear> ceramic NEVER go short
[09:00:03] <theBear> physical faults can open them
[09:00:12] <amee2k> hmm interresting
[09:00:35] <amee2k> not quite sure if that is a good thing though
[09:01:13] <SilicaGel> yeah, cracking
[09:01:30] <amee2k> in my case the driver would probably keep running without the cap, but then leak a huge amount of EMI everywhere
[09:01:58] <Kevin`> ceramic caps failing is rather rare
[09:02:10] <Kevin`> at least compared with other stuff failing
[09:02:12] <amee2k> a cap failing short would pop the fuse and disable the module
[09:02:36] <amee2k> yeah, thats why i'm rather happy that i can get by without (relatively) maintenance intensive electrolytics
[10:01:04] <pingec> What is the ending character when communicating over RS232 usually? When I send an AT command, how do I know when to stop reading the response?
[10:01:40] <Steffanx> \n ?
[10:02:20] <pingec> I don't know how to google this
[10:02:43] <amee2k> mmh, there is some document on AT commands iirc
[10:03:02] <Rez> CR or LF, probably CR
[10:03:57] <amee2k> pingec: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT_commands#Syntactical_definitions << this may be interresting for you
[10:03:57] <pingec> I see that when I press <enter> CR is sent
[10:05:31] <amee2k> http://www.zoomtel.com/documentation/dial_up/100498D.pdf << also chapter 2 of this
[10:07:43] <pingec> Default: 13 (Carriage Return)
[10:08:54] <pingec> I need a way of knowing when to start processing the result of an AT command
[10:09:25] <pingec> I hope a termination char is always appended
[10:09:27] <pingec> lol
[10:09:58] <amee2k> how could you have a command without termination character?
[10:10:23] <pingec> hardly
[10:10:32] <pingec> but how about a reply to that command?
[10:10:46] <pingec> does that have to be terminated or not?
[10:10:49] <amee2k> i mean, if it doesn't have a termination character, then it isn't a command by definition
[10:11:14] <pingec> I'm talking about what I get back _after_ I input a command
[10:11:19] <amee2k> no idea about replies, i never got that much into hayes commands
[10:12:38] <amee2k> from what i remember status replies in command mode are always terminated with a line terminator
[10:12:44] <pingec> <CR> Carriage return character, is the command line and result code terminator character, which value, in decimal ASCII between 0 and 255,is specified within parameter S3. The default value is 13.
[10:12:58] <amee2k> i mean, otherwise it wouldn't make sense because you don't have a complete line without a trailing line terminator
[10:13:40] <pingec> ok it's just that nowhere its stated explicitly
[10:13:48] <pingec> well I didn't look hard enough perhaps
[10:13:51] <amee2k> of course not
[10:14:16] <amee2k> because the hayes protocol is a closed standard
[10:14:35] <amee2k> so pretty much everything that is floating around is reverse engineered bits
[10:14:39] <amee2k> like NTFS
[10:14:49] <pingec> interesting
[10:15:06] <pingec> What about all devices that use it?
[10:15:11] <pingec> Do they pay a license?
[10:15:13] <amee2k> thats why different, self proclaimedly hayes compatible modems rarely were in practice
[10:15:47] <amee2k> no, they just implemented something of their own that followed the same general idea
[10:15:50] <amee2k> but thats about it
[10:16:05] <inflex> so long as it handled ATDT, most people were happy :D
[10:16:23] <pingec> interesting
[10:17:10] <karlp> what are you building that you want to use AT commands for?
[10:17:21] <amee2k> teledildonics?
[10:17:29] <pingec> I want to interface an sms modem
[10:18:05] <pingec> amee2k lol :)
[10:18:17] <amee2k> >_>
[10:20:48] <Steffanx> <_<
[10:20:59] <Steffanx> ^_^
[10:21:02] <Steffanx> ___
[10:21:07] <amee2k> -_-
[10:21:15] <amee2k> o.O
[10:21:17] <amee2k> O.o
[10:21:29] <Steffanx> ~_~
[10:21:36] <amee2k> ...
[10:21:40] <Steffanx> …
[10:21:50] <amee2k> X.X
[10:21:58] <amee2k> (.Y.)
[10:22:03] <amee2k> err wait, did i do it wrong?
[10:22:33] <Steffanx> :P
[10:22:45] <amee2k> :\
[10:22:47] <amee2k> :|
[10:22:48] <amee2k> :/
[10:22:50] <amee2k> :-
[10:22:52] <amee2k> :\
[10:23:08] <Steffanx> :/
[10:23:21] <amee2k> :O
[11:18:51] <pingec> http://www.avrfreaks.net/modules/FreaksFiles/files/561/DN_043.pdf
[11:19:20] <pingec> Can someone tell me what is the purpsoe of "lsl zl" and "rol zh"
[11:19:39] <pingec> why is that needed before lpm?
[11:26:13] <izua> lsl is left shift, rol is left rotate with carry. lpm is store to dataflash, as pointed by Z (zl+zh)
[11:27:02] <izua> or wait, lpm is load from dataflash, yeah - load program memory
[11:27:17] <izua> that routine looks like something that would load a certain byte from dataflash into ram
[11:28:28] <pingec> yes but why are those two commands needed :/
[11:29:18] <izua> to alter the Z pointer
[11:29:35] <izua> it loads data pointed by Z
[11:29:54] <izua> initially Z starts at 0, which would be your actual program, not any sort of data
[11:30:18] <izua> it's also probably used in a loop, to load more than one byte
[11:31:44] <pingec> it pops Z from stack
[11:32:13] <pingec> and that shoulg already be the right pointer
[11:32:25] <pingec> there's somethign im missing
[11:32:56] <izua> ah, lsl is popping from stack? my assembly is really rusty
[11:33:52] <amee2k> no, you're just not looking at the code :P
[11:33:57] <amee2k> your assembly is fine
[11:43:00] * theBear was assemblied pretty damned well also <poses>
[11:48:24] <theBear> hmm.... anyone remember the tolerance on a avr internal r-c osc, lets say, attiny2313 dip with 1Mhz internal set ? like for example, if you 'set' a countdown for 24hrs, how far off might you be worst case ?
[11:49:49] <keenerd> The internal calibration lets you change it ±5%, so I'd guess around that.
[11:50:02] <theBear> i think this whole hw-design for the lab-heater and maybe magnetic stirrer is pointless, aside from lack of components and ease of design/use, a micro can just do SO much more than a few opamps and maybe a 555
[11:50:30] <theBear> mmm... sounds about liek what i remembered (was imagining dimmed-by-memory serial speed charts....)
[11:51:22] <theBear> plus it'd be a good excuse to make my first ever 8pin avr board
[11:52:42] <theBear> i've only got 2, and i'm 99.9% sure the 2nd is destined to be the new fan controller in the old laptop i just fixed the fans on yet again (years ago dead fan driver ic, given to me, and eventually i hot wired it with a 555pwm/heat sensor with terrible gain/usefullness, and recently new bearings/everything for the weird-sized centrifugal fan that got UNBERABLY noisy over the years)
[11:52:49] <theBear> but still...
[11:53:01] <theBear> maybe i should just 'waste' a 2313 on it, cos i got so many lying around
[11:53:12] <theBear> i think i got 90s AND tiny in 2313 :)
[11:53:47] <theBear> maybe i should get silly about it and use all those spare pins for an lcd and some crap
[11:55:21] <theBear> i still haven't used any of these variously-defective lcds i got from old work.... 2*20 character big 14780 or whatever the number is compat displays, i think a couple had dead backlights, and the 3rd maybe no contrast at one end, which i dunno, MAYBE some kinda dead driver line which i couldn't change, maybe just dodgy rubber->pcb old nokia style contacts.... either way, it was free, i can use it as a very large 2*10 display even <grin>
[11:56:23] <theBear> i wonder how they are put together... if i could cut it a bit.... see, they're all JUST too wide to mount in the front of any slightly-standard pc case, i've checked, not just wider than a drive bay, but with the needed and unremovable reasonably drive pcb, they don't even fit inside the case edges...
[11:56:36] <theBear> and i've got this 'server' in the next room....
[12:02:20] <karlp> bleh, embedded.com has done another "take a survey, wina prize"* [* survey open to all, prizes only available to US residents] joke
[12:05:46] <pingec> Oh I get it
[12:05:51] <pingec> its multiplying by 2
[12:08:43] <pingec> I see, a word in program memory is 16bit long
[12:12:43] <OndraSter_> yay I forgot about you guys!
[12:12:46] <OndraSter_> mornin
[12:12:58] <Steffanx> How can you forget us?
[12:14:10] <Essobi> j00 can nevar 4get uzz!
[12:14:30] <Essobi> That's my best Boxxie impression. That's it.. That's all the /b/tard I can muster. :D
[12:25:25] <OndraSter_> Steffanx, I don't have #avr in autojoin list yet
[12:25:35] <OndraSter_> I always tell myself "now I should add it"
[12:25:37] <OndraSter_> but never do it
[12:29:37] <theBear> back before i had the bouncer to look after me and my channels, i always forgot half the ones i should be in if i got disconnected after a few days/weeks
[12:30:10] <OndraSter_> hehe
[12:30:25] <Steffanx> Why some people even use a computer?
[12:30:48] <theBear> umm
[12:30:56] <theBear> cos my avr doesn't have a keyboard ?
[12:32:18] <Steffanx> Why you need an avr?
[12:32:55] <Steffanx> Automation.. is useless
[12:34:47] <karlp> just don't ever leave the channel in the first place
[12:34:49] <karlp> screen ftw.
[12:35:05] <Steffanx> Your connections says alive forever?
[12:35:06] <Steffanx> -s
[12:35:21] <karlp> it goes down if linode goes down.
[12:36:38] <Steffanx> 99.97% uptime = a few disconnects :P
[12:37:18] <karlp> yeah, but the irc servers go down too.
[12:37:39] <karlp> irssi reconnects over those bounces.
[12:43:32] <amee2k> theBear: i rememer the "typical characteristics" sections in the datasheets being very interresting with respect to the internal osc frequencies. and they go MUCH further than 5% on some MCUs. e.g. on a megaX8 you can crank the 8MHz osc up to almost 14MHz with the calib register
[12:44:25] <amee2k> wb atmega
[12:44:40] <theBear> hmmm.. i'm more thinking about a 12-48hour countdown where timing of ooh, 10% wouldn't matter, but 50% wouldn't be real cool
[12:44:52] <theBear> aren't they roughly pre-calibrated at the factory ?
[12:45:14] <amee2k> i think so, but definitely no better than 10%
[12:45:28] <theBear> but not much worse ? <grin>
[12:45:33] <amee2k> i remember measuring one of my megas at 7.3MHz once
[12:45:40] <amee2k> if that is a data point
[12:46:00] <theBear> hmmm.... roughly 10%, by my head maths :)
[12:46:04] <amee2k> so if timing is of ANY importance at all i'd just shell out the 50 cent for a 16MHz xtal and not think about it anymore
[12:46:19] <keenerd> Or a 32k xtal.
[12:46:31] <keenerd> Those work great along with the built in RC.
[12:46:52] <keenerd> And let you do low power sleep.
[12:47:20] <amee2k> i don't think low power is important for a magnetic stirrer or oven
[12:47:28] <keenerd> Meh :-)
[12:48:03] <amee2k> >_>
[12:48:41] <keenerd> I almost always through a 32k xtal on all my designs these days, just because it opens so many possibilities.
[12:48:44] <keenerd> *throw
[12:52:18] <asteve> 32k xtal?
[12:52:37] <asteve> x = crystal?
[12:53:08] <keenerd> Yes. 32768 Hz watch-style crystal.
[12:53:22] <atmega> hello amee2k, can I see the LED schematic? is it ready?
[12:56:38] <atmega> ... and 50 cent for a quarz crystal is expensive
[12:57:32] <keenerd> Hence "almost always". If it is a volume design and I can't come up with anything clever, then it gets dropped.
[13:00:29] <amee2k> atmega: http://ve504.cugnet.net/~amee2k/sandbox/ilm-421.ps << this is the preliminary schematic. sorry that it is kinda ugly but i have the proper schematic on paper in my note book and drew this one only for the board layout
[13:01:17] <amee2k> from the connections it is still largely a 1:1 copy of the paper schematic so still rather straight forward to read
[13:03:04] <amee2k> in the process of making up the exact component values and how many footprints now
[13:03:36] <Steffanx> ps?
[13:03:46] <amee2k> whats wrong with that?
[13:03:57] <Steffanx> pdf is easier
[13:04:07] <amee2k> pdf is a zipped ps ;)
[13:04:20] <amee2k> with some metadata header
[13:04:24] <izua> lol. really? o_O
[13:04:25] <Steffanx> It's still easier
[13:04:30] <amee2k> yep
[13:06:12] <atmega> in a pdf file the Pictures are jpg-compressed ... this is sometimes ugly
[13:06:18] <amee2k> pdf is a slightly less general form of PS designed to make rendering individual pages easier without rendering everything first, and it introduces compression and metadata and a few other things
[13:06:19] <Steffanx> Not sure if i have to believe that amee2k
[13:06:37] <Steffanx> *should
[13:07:01] <amee2k> PS is an adobe standard too btw
[13:07:25] <amee2k> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF#Technical_foundations << first bullet point
[13:08:15] <atmega> the picture in the ps file is saved as vector-Image?
[13:08:25] <atmega> it looks good
[13:08:32] <amee2k> i think so
[13:08:59] <amee2k> otherwise i can't explain an A2 sized schematic in a 500k file
[13:09:03] <Steffanx> It's not exactly compress
[13:09:06] <Steffanx> ed
[13:09:31] <amee2k> yeah, the compression is bullet point three in that list :P
[13:10:37] <keenerd> PDF also removes the fairly decent general purpose language built into PS.
[13:11:06] <amee2k> thats what she said
[13:11:58] <Steffanx> Yeah, so it's not just take a PS file and compress it … and you have a pdf :P
[13:12:26] <amee2k> right. it's take a PDF and uncompress it and you have a PS
[13:12:30] <amee2k> anyway, thats the schem. if you don't like PS you're welcome to port it to your file format of choice
[13:12:52] <keenerd> And conversion is pretty trivial. Even imagemagic can do it.
[13:12:54] <Steffanx> It just takes longer for me to open.. as some app has to convert it
[13:13:13] <Steffanx> It's converted to pdf then opened :P
[13:13:16] <atmega> no ps is better than pdf
[13:13:50] <Steffanx> Sure
[13:13:56] <amee2k> evince / document viewer works fine with both
[13:14:13] <Steffanx> os x here :P
[13:14:20] <Steffanx> Two problems at once
[13:14:40] <atmega> here I have a pdf file (a Script) an some Pictures I can not see (failure?)
[13:15:13] <keenerd> amee2k: I am with you on this. PS is better.
[13:15:16] <Steffanx> btw you should use a communication over the power line for your board amee2k :)
[13:15:28] <amee2k> no i shouldn't
[13:15:37] <Steffanx> You should
[13:15:41] <amee2k> keenerd: well, then you're with atmega really >_>
[13:15:44] <Steffanx> No need for extra wires
[13:16:36] <amee2k> both work fine imo so i just picked one without thinking about it
[13:17:02] <amee2k> Steffanx: the wires are a feature
[13:17:07] <keenerd> I can never win with autocomplete :-(
[13:17:18] <Steffanx> No, for me it's something I don't want :P
[13:17:39] <Steffanx> So you lost a customer :P
[13:17:42] <amee2k> then buy the other modules from sparkfun
[13:17:48] <amee2k> problems solved
[13:17:56] <Steffanx> other modules?
[13:18:13] <Steffanx> I don't want to pay extra hobby tax..
[13:18:34] <amee2k> then wires or sparkfun
[13:18:59] <Steffanx> Add an option to make it wireless then :P
[13:19:21] <amee2k> now we're talking
[13:19:24] <Steffanx> or so i can do it myself
[13:19:31] * amee2k wanders off looking for irda modules
[13:20:16] <amee2k> keenerd: http://www.qdb.us/307151 << most hilarious tab completion failure i've seen in a long time
[13:20:30] <Steffanx> why ir?
[13:20:37] <amee2k> it is wireless \o/
[13:21:25] <Steffanx> Hmpf
[13:21:47] <amee2k> ^_^
[13:24:25] <Steffanx> Client: amee2k, I want new hand-free thingy for a phone
[13:24:31] <atmega> @ amee2k you want to make a wireless comunikation?
[13:25:09] <Steffanx> Nvm, this is going nowhere
[13:25:23] <amee2k> Steffanx desires wireless. i've been thinking about it, but not going to happen on the POC prototype
[13:26:13] <Steffanx> ok, but irda isn't really a modern way to make something wireless
[13:26:45] <atmega> I have buy four NRF24L01+ Wireless Transceiver Modules at ebay to try wireless communikation
[13:27:01] <Steffanx> Yeah those are nice
[13:27:10] <atmega> I pay 9 Euro
[13:27:24] <amee2k> i've got a pair of 10EUR 433MHz serial modules
[13:27:27] <amee2k> never got them to work
[13:28:15] <Steffanx> The nrf24l0+ are better… just talk to some registers over SPI
[13:28:30] <atmega> for nRF Module you can find a much sourcecode
[13:29:30] <Steffanx> I just started with the myself..I want to do everything myself, incl. some nice mesh networking etc.
[13:29:36] <atmega> but the distance between the modules should be low ...send with 0db (1mW)
[13:30:03] <atmega> a mesh would be cool
[13:30:36] <amee2k> like zigbee?
[13:30:39] <Steffanx> Yes
[13:30:54] <Steffanx> Never worked with zigbee though :P
[13:31:11] <OndraSter_> I have got four NRF24L01+
[13:31:13] <OndraSter_> somewhere
[13:31:15] <OndraSter_> can't find them :(
[13:31:17] <atmega> zigbee is more expensive, I don't like it
[13:31:38] <Steffanx> Indeed
[13:31:41] <Steffanx> Too expensive
[13:35:58] <atmega> @ <OndraSter_ you can find some source here: http://www.tinkerer.eu/AVRLib
[13:36:33] <OndraSter_> thanks :)
[13:36:46] <OndraSter_> is there also written WHERE CAN DID I PUT IT IN MY ROOM
[13:36:50] <OndraSter_> it is nowhere to be found
[13:53:37] * amee2k is not a huge fan of wireless in general...
[13:57:26] <OndraSter_> yeah, you can be never sure where the thing is, when it is wireless :P
[13:57:32] <OndraSter_> in case of wire, you just go along it...
[13:57:40] <fisted> or just pull it ;)
[13:57:48] <OndraSter_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAPACITORS-100nF-25V-0603-SMD-REEL-4000-PCS-/320408809779?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4a99da7133
[13:57:50] <OndraSter_> nice price tag
[13:58:21] <amee2k> if i use a wire and it doesn't work, i at least know why it doesn't
[13:58:22] * amee2k runs
[14:15:24] * RikusW finally got a HP laserjet P1102
[14:16:29] <RikusW> Tried photoresist + normal paper, it actually worked
[14:18:23] <atmega> @ OndraSter_ http://www.ebay.de/itm/YAGEO-SMD-Kondensator-100nF-0603-10-50V-ca-4000-Stuck-/220630091460?pt=Bauteile&hash=item335e9406c4
[14:19:01] <atmega> http://www.ebay.de/itm/SMD-Keramik-Kondensator-100nF-0805-50V-1-Rolle-15000-/220928909999?pt=Bauteile&hash=item337063a2af
[14:19:05] <OndraSter_> yay
[14:19:40] <OndraSter_> oops they are actually 0603
[14:20:23] <OndraSter_> dont like sub0805
[14:21:28] <RikusW> 0603 100nF aren't that bad
[14:21:38] <RikusW> provided you have tweezers
[14:21:51] <karlp> atmega: you could also get these in the same price range: http://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MRF24J40MA-I-RM/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsnNKdmhDfM1EgN%252btSgBRoY
[14:22:06] <karlp> not zigbee, but you get the 802.15.4 layer built in, instead of just the RF
[14:23:42] <ftc> not sure if it does what you need but this is my new favorite chip: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_docs.asp?category_id=163&family_id=676&subfamily_id=2124&part_id=4692
[14:23:56] <karlp> yeah, it's neat :)
[14:24:00] <ftc> its 4$ and comes with a zigbee
[14:24:06] <ftc> haven't actually bought one yet
[14:24:24] <ftc> but it seems pretty awesome
[14:24:25] <karlp> I have two of these on my desk waiting their turn: http://www.dresden-elektronik.de/shop/prod148.html
[14:24:33] <karlp> problem with the chip is you have to do the RF PCB design.
[14:24:38] <karlp> which is unfun
[14:25:06] <ftc> yeah
[14:25:46] <fisted> is there a known issue/bug with the CPC and/or CPI instruction on ATmega16?
[14:25:55] <ftc> you could just steal the design from sparkfun: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9734
[14:26:15] <karlp> steal/reuse.
[14:26:26] <ftc> god i love open source
[14:26:33] <fisted> i've got two programs which are pretty much the same, one crashes my mcu, the other doesn't, and CPC/CPI are instructions only occuring in the failing one
[14:26:35] <karlp> still, designing your own rf pcb is not for the faint of heart
[14:27:02] <karlp> still have no idea why they are charging 55$ for that board.
[14:27:21] <ftc> i worked for a company that had me try to make bowtie antennas by etching PCBs
[14:27:26] <ftc> that never went all that great
[14:27:39] <karlp> comments make it seem like that board might even really be a working design anyway
[14:27:55] <ftc> i think by the end they were good enough for rf but not radar
[14:28:51] <ftc> sparkfun stuff can be a little beta ish
[14:29:03] <ftc> i had to modify my xbee pro adapter
[14:29:19] <ftc> since they did the resistor divider wrong for the 5v 3.3v level shift
[14:29:34] <RikusW> fisted: unlikely
[14:29:34] <ftc> but in general i enjoy the stuff i get from them
[14:30:01] <karlp> man, I should get off irc and imgur and back to food and code.
[14:30:05] <karlp> get things off the project queue.
[14:30:55] <asteve> irc and imgur make asteve something something
[14:31:10] <asteve> although more important than imgur is reddit
[14:31:16] <asteve> chicken and egg
[14:31:19] <karlp> no, imgur is reddit without the redditors.
[14:31:39] <karlp> the redditors are the ones responsible for the fucking cats and dogs
[14:31:55] <asteve> i'll admit that i mostly click on imgur links while on reddit but there's more to life than pictures of cats
[14:32:15] <asteve> you don't think the picture i posted of my dog was cute?
[14:32:29] <asteve> he was wearing a lobster outfit
[14:32:40] <karlp> that's not a dog picture
[14:32:50] <karlp> that's a picture of a lobstersuit on a dog! completely different!
[14:33:49] <asteve> true story, my girlfriend posted a picture of my dog wearing a banana costume for halloween to /r/aww; the only thing we've ever posted it received 87 upvotes
[14:34:01] <karlp> wtf are upvotes?
[14:34:20] <asteve> the arrows to the side of the links in reddit; they determine the viewing rank
[14:34:37] <karlp> (I was joking, referring to me not actually reading reddit, just imgur)
[14:36:08] <asteve> anyway, i find a lot of useful information reddit that doesn't involve imgur
[14:36:16] <asteve> on*
[14:36:17] <karlp> !define useful.
[14:36:50] <asteve> things that intrigue the mind; technology updates are nice; new developments in physics
[14:37:01] <asteve> the occasional news post
[14:38:23] <asteve> http://www.reddit.com/r/arduino
[14:38:25] <asteve> for example
[14:38:55] <asteve> or http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/oxj8v/ibm_creates_9nm_carbon_nanotube_transistor_that/
[14:41:15] <abcminiuser> !seen Tom_Itx
[14:41:15] <tobbor> Tom_itx was last seen in #garfield on Jan 21 03:04 2012
[14:41:43] <amee2k> hmm... are there alkaline AAA compatible lithium batteries?
[14:46:09] <karlp> abcminiuser: how was aus day in norway? got anything planned?
[14:46:20] <karlp> bring enough tim tams with you?
[14:46:29] <abcminiuser> I bought my first Whitegood, does that count?
[14:46:44] <karlp> maybe. but only if it's purpose is too keep beer cold :)
[14:48:39] <abcminiuser> It could wash beer, I suppose
[14:48:44] <abcminiuser> I feel old now :S
[14:48:46] <karlp> :)
[14:48:51] <karlp> feel good :)
[14:49:11] <karlp> revel in the powah that comes with saying, "I can wash. I have the tools to wash. but I shall on MY TERMS!"
[14:50:54] <OndraSter_> ehh, browsing on german ebay just by guessing by watching where the links lead to LOL
[14:50:59] <abcminiuser> I can wash AT 1400 RPMs
[14:51:25] <abcminiuser> Also, it has a goddam complex UI for something that just needs a "start" button
[14:52:40] <karlp> does it have 10000 symbols, and not a single word in any language?
[14:53:12] <karlp> to pacify all the crazy euros who refuse to aquiesce(?) to the one true language?
[15:04:41] <abcminiuser> It's got a big-ass dial with a million pictograms
[15:09:18] <ftc> if i were a disgruntled graphic designer working for that company i would discretely make one of the pictograms be of a dress shirt going into a toaster oven
[15:10:08] <ftc> perhaps for "permanent press" or something
[16:05:34] <ftc> why is it that the waveform generation mode bits are split between two registers? WGM11 and WGM10 are at the end of TCCR1A and then WGM13 and WGM12 are in the middle of TCCR1B.
[16:06:13] <atmega> why not ...
[16:06:40] <amee2k> bceause it is mildly annoying sometimes
[16:06:53] <ftc> seems like it would have been cleaner to put them all continuously in control register a and move the reserved bits to TCCR1B
[16:09:21] <ftc> i guess perhaps its some legacy compatibility thing....
[16:11:47] <karlp> or more likely, the number of available modes grew over time
[16:22:48] <ftc> looks like WGM12 and WGM13 are all related to fast PWM and PWM phase correct so that seems plausible
[16:29:37] <ftc> so where did most people in here learn the AVR stuff? are you guys electrical engineers or just hobbyists like myself?
[16:30:02] <amee2k> from the datasheet
[16:30:27] <amee2k> i started electronics like three years ago with a pair of 5$ DMMs and a 5$ soldering iron
[16:30:56] <amee2k> my first avr was a bunch of mega88s and a 10$ ISP dongle that died after 6 months >_>
[16:31:09] <ftc> fair enough
[16:31:45] <amee2k> i salvaged most passives back then from old junk
[16:31:52] <ftc> i am a geophysicist and have done a bunch of stuff working with EEs but all the actual circuit building and avr stuff is just hobby projects
[16:32:30] <ftc> did a ton of salvaging passive components back in high school, nowadays i just buy it all
[16:32:39] <Essobi> ahh.. there's some nerdcore EE's in here.
[16:32:45] <amee2k> after school i started studying computer science. that isn't too far off but largely concentrates on the software half of it from my exp
[16:32:49] <Essobi> And quite a few hobbyist too.
[16:33:07] <amee2k> i still have a huge stock of salvaged stuff that i use on a regular basis
[16:33:18] <amee2k> salvaging gets a huge variety of values
[16:33:53] <amee2k> i also got lots of stuff from "you can keep it if you can fix it" kind of deals
[16:33:57] <atmega> my first electronic project was a picture transmission Unit for a 27MHz amateur radio device
[16:34:28] <ftc> both my parents were EE people so i have been doing passive stuff for a long time
[16:34:29] <atmega> it was only a OpAmp, some diodes, resistors and caps
[16:34:50] <ftc> this uC stuff really opens up possibilities though
[16:35:27] <ftc> could have saved about 200$ on my college senior design project if I had realized what an AVR could do
[16:35:33] <amee2k> my mom is a teacher and my dad has studied mechanical engineering and worked as a process engineer for a while too
[16:35:44] <ftc> instead i went with one of those arm linux boards
[16:36:44] <ftc> hehe, nerd parents are the best kind of parents
[16:36:51] <atmega> :)
[16:37:02] <amee2k> hehe
[16:38:52] <amee2k> my mom is pretty much the polar opposite of that
[16:39:17] <amee2k> my dad is pretty cool with building stuff and i learned a lot of electrical stuff from him
[16:39:32] <amee2k> but hasn't done much electronics
[16:39:54] <ftc> i would really like to see more shop type classes in high schools, they seem to be loosing that and what little is there seems to be occupied by the underachieving students
[16:40:36] <amee2k> no shit
[16:41:09] <atmega> I remember ... my father say always "This you can't do, this is to dangerous and you are not a specialist, let it do other people, don't try it"
[16:41:28] <ftc> since i am unemployed at the moment, i have thought about going to the school district and volunteering my time to teach kids electronics and shop
[16:41:42] <ftc> kids can safely do more than parents think
[16:41:53] <ftc> they just need to be instructed properly
[16:42:01] <amee2k> atmega: sounds like your dad is my mom :P
[16:42:28] <amee2k> well, some can i'd say
[16:42:46] <amee2k> some can't because they would need so many lessons on safety and procedures that they would run away first >_>
[16:43:35] <atmega> oh ... but Ii see him, he try everything and make and try very complicated things in electronic ... he tell the one thing and do an other
[16:43:43] <ftc> we just need more things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dl1Ba6U6Eo
[16:44:04] <ftc> i think the table saw was the most dangerous thing we had in shop class
[16:44:25] <amee2k> no we don't
[16:44:51] <amee2k> it'll be safer for the ones who have used a normal table saw before
[16:45:13] <ftc> just don't tell the kids its a passively safe saw :P
[16:45:28] <amee2k> but the ones starting off with all the safety bullshit makes people get lazy after a while
[16:45:43] <amee2k> the mechanism is called "risk compensation" ;)
[16:45:46] <ftc> let them think it will remove a finger if they screw up
[16:46:54] <amee2k> they'll figure it out eventually >_>
[16:47:26] <ftc> a combination of shop and science could also be cool, i love this guy's blog: http://benkrasnow.blogspot.com/
[16:47:35] <atmega> the saw-safety mechanism is good for worker, if you work a long time you are not so good concentrated any more
[16:48:35] <ftc> i don't think my school ever actually had a student touch the blade of the table saw come to think of it
[16:48:37] <amee2k> it is a good failsafe and there is nothing wrong with that
[16:48:56] <ftc> the shop teacher did and lost part of his finger nail but that was the worst of it
[16:49:12] <amee2k> but if you think like that you'll come to the conclusion that it is good for underskilled, undertrained, underpaid and/or overworked workers
[16:49:41] <amee2k> hey, it has a safety so now we can let people work the saw 14 hours a day
[16:50:26] <ftc> that is part of a larger problem, especially in the US
[16:50:36] <amee2k> if people don't lose fingers on a regular basis, people don't keep thinking about safety
[16:50:42] <ftc> we need a better method for regulating the number of hours people put in
[16:51:24] <amee2k> if you get away with it 1000 times safety has kind of a bullshit image. same as advertisement
[16:52:14] <amee2k> most people i know mentally block out advertisement by now because it is ubiquitous. that wouldn't happen if there was only very little of it to begin with
[16:52:49] <amee2k> so safety is a good thing, i agree with that entirely
[16:52:54] <ftc> but the question is, which method results in fewer injuries
[16:53:05] <amee2k> but relying on safety mechanisms to get away with dumb ideas is pretty bad
[16:53:07] <Valen> most professionals dont want sawstops
[16:53:16] <Valen> because they !@#$ everything in the saw
[16:53:27] <Valen> when they false positive
[16:53:43] <amee2k> and at some point safeties get obstrusive enough that they get into people's way
[16:53:43] <ftc> ah, didn't realize false positives was a problem
[16:53:45] <ftc> that would suck
[16:53:46] <keenerd> Wet wood? Buy a new saw!
[16:54:06] <Valen> I was planning one based around a car brake system
[16:54:20] <Valen> won't stop the blade quite as fast but it wouldn't break anything when you trip it
[16:54:24] <amee2k> ftc: think about copy protection. even if i was still gaming i wouldn't buy any games anymore even though i probably had the money today
[16:54:34] <LoRez> they don't fuck everything in the saw, just embed the blade into an aluminum block
[16:54:53] <Valen> what do you think that does to the $500 blade?
[16:55:04] <Valen> and all the bearings and other bits and pieces
[16:55:04] <ftc> pretty sure it destroys the blade and the cartridge though which is not cheap
[16:55:12] <LoRez> uh, $500 blade? what?
[16:55:23] <Valen> if you have a "real" saw
[16:55:38] <ftc> even if you are on a cheap blade the cartridges are 200$
[16:55:44] <Valen> my chippy got a new table saw, $30k
[16:55:46] <amee2k> the whole starforce fiasco comes to mind
[16:56:12] <amee2k> some copy protection shit trips when it detects stuff like daemon tools on the system
[16:56:35] <keenerd> amee2k: HIB lets you buy games and not feel like a criminal with an ankle monitor.
[16:56:57] <amee2k> and two years ago i think i had a false positve with eagle's copy protection... one morning it refused to open any and all files i had made before
[16:57:25] <vectory> howd you solve?
[16:57:37] <amee2k> with the same nonsensical error message like "invalid file" or something that people with a cracked copy usually get. which immediately disqualified me from every kind of community support
[16:57:54] <amee2k> and since i was using the freeware version, i wasn't eligible for commercial support either
[16:57:55] <ftc> software drm is quite annoying
[16:58:00] <amee2k> vectory: i didn't. i'm using kicad now.
[16:58:19] <Valen> heh win
[16:58:21] <ftc> i try to stick with OSS whenever possibe
[16:58:34] <amee2k> the interface sucks but if it craps itself at least it was an honest bug lol
[16:58:48] <ftc> most of my code is apache license
[16:59:00] <Valen> i dont find the interface that bad
[16:59:01] <ftc> except for the stuff that is modified off someone else, then i retain their license
[16:59:04] <Valen> just different to eagle
[16:59:10] <Valen> the libs are the problem
[16:59:14] <keenerd> Yay Kicad!
[16:59:18] <Valen> with the new eagle using xml files
[16:59:27] <Valen> i really hope to see some compatibility there
[16:59:56] <amee2k> well, i partially blame the software/entertainment/whatever industries for that too... if eagle didn't cost 1500 bucks i suppose more people would be willing to consider it
[17:00:30] <amee2k> same holds for games and movies and shows and whatever. 50$ for half a season of some popular show on DVD is obscene
[17:01:28] <Valen> I'd pay $100 for eagle
[17:01:53] <Valen> with no limits and no support
[17:01:57] <amee2k> same thought here
[17:02:01] <asteve> beers brats and bitches
[17:02:05] <amee2k> no limits is more important than support
[17:02:10] <Valen> yup
[17:02:35] <amee2k> stuff coming with support contracts says "our shit sucks balls and you're too dumb to figure it out" in my face
[17:02:54] <Valen> for end user software yeah kinda
[17:03:05] <Valen> i sell some stocktake systems with support
[17:03:13] <Valen> but thats server side stuff
[17:03:30] <amee2k> thats probably somewhat different. but good documentation goes a fucking long way
[17:03:42] <amee2k> and imo that holds for software just as well as for a microcontroller
[17:03:52] <Valen> heh the support contract means they don't use the documentation
[17:04:11] <Valen> i think everybody wins out of that
[17:04:11] <amee2k> ime support contract usually means you don't get any to begin with
[17:04:34] <Valen> comes down to the source of the problem
[17:04:45] <Valen> if the problem is with my software then i'll fix it
[17:04:56] <Valen> if the problem is with anything else then don't call me
[17:05:03] <amee2k> so when the contract runs out the software quickly becomes useless because noone knows how it works anymore
[17:05:29] <amee2k> ever got two or three support hotlines who keep refering your to each other?
[17:05:35] <Valen> if you have support, then call me and i'll work with you to get the system working
[17:05:44] <amee2k> and noone wants to be supporting the boo boo
[17:05:51] <Valen> yeah thats crappy
[17:05:59] <amee2k> no shit
[17:06:16] <Valen> I tell them to call me at the drop of a hat because I don't want their system to be down
[17:06:34] <Valen> in the 5 years or so its been running there has been 1 case of my program being defective
[17:06:42] <Valen> somebody got a unicode character in there
[17:07:01] <Valen> which was fine until it got to the windows CE version 3 PDA's they use lol
[17:07:02] <amee2k> FOSS people sometimes have the same habit... don't get the dumb idea to ask some maintainers when you're using precompiled distro packages
[17:07:40] <amee2k> or the equally dumb idea to ask the distro support people about some particular package that is not intimately related to the system's inner workings
[17:07:56] <Valen> i think its ok to ask provided your polite about it
[17:08:04] <Valen> and ask in the propper forum
[17:08:07] <amee2k> sure it is okay
[17:08:10] <Valen> don't file a bug though
[17:08:16] <amee2k> and they will politely tell you that you're off topic then
[17:08:18] <asteve> proper forum eh? polite eh?
[17:08:27] <asteve> 1 minute until quitting time
[17:09:10] <amee2k> i'm like THIS glad that i don't work support and hopefully never have to >_<
[17:09:17] <amee2k> i don't want to have to be an asshole
[17:09:22] * amee2k runs and hides behind the sofa
[17:09:35] <Steffanx> You give support here :P
[17:09:50] <amee2k> well, thats quite different than paid support >_>
[17:09:59] <Steffanx> <_<
[17:10:25] <amee2k> and even somewhat different than specific product support really
[17:10:55] <amee2k> this channel is by far not limited to just AVR, otherwise 90% of the conversations here would get killed by topic fappers
[17:13:07] <lidenbrock> =p
[17:13:19] <lidenbrock> is arduino as powerfull as avr's microcontrollers?
[17:13:22] <inflex> but at least we manage to orbit the topic relatively well... unlike #electronics
[17:13:36] <inflex> arduino is just a software + pin layout (shield) standard
[17:14:21] <inflex> As such, thre are now PIC and ARM based Arduino boards
[17:14:33] <lidenbrock> humm
[17:14:34] <lidenbrock> :]
[17:15:35] <Valen> inflex: http://www.raspberrypi.org/ $35 = 256mb ram 700mhz cpu and HDMI
[17:15:59] <Steffanx> don't forget the pretty powerful gpu Valen
[17:16:09] <Valen> amee2k: just don't be an asshole ;->
[17:16:28] <Valen> I work with the customer, if its not a "my problem" then i bill them for it
[17:16:39] <amee2k> lidenbrock: arduino is a board with an AVR controller, a voltage regulator and a USB to serial adapter on it. thats pretty much it
[17:16:59] <amee2k> the only advantage you get for using an arduino is that you get all on one board, instead of 2-3
[17:17:13] <Steffanx> And there's a shitload of libs you can u se
[17:17:14] <Valen> they are happy because when something goes wrong they have 70 or so staff getting paid double time to do nothing so my bill is pretty cheap
[17:17:37] <amee2k> Valen: nice :)
[17:18:00] <amee2k> then you're one of the 3% cool support people out there
[17:18:09] <Valen> my missus is too
[17:18:19] <Valen> she works doing customer stuff at a bank
[17:18:26] <Valen> they keep getting up her for having long calls
[17:18:38] <Valen> she points out that the person has called 5 times before they get to her
[17:18:40] <amee2k> o.O
[17:18:55] <Steffanx> Poor 'missus' Valen
[17:18:58] <Valen> they speak to her once for 10 minutes and leave happy never to call again
[17:19:17] <Valen> because she actually fixes the problem
[17:19:25] <amee2k> 0.0
[17:19:33] <amee2k> i didn't know support people do that
[17:19:54] <Valen> its rare
[17:20:32] <Valen> one of the managers is now doing a report on why long calls aren't the devil
[17:20:43] <amee2k> lol
[17:21:07] <Valen> she used to work for commonwealth
[17:21:11] <Valen> (different bank)
[17:21:24] <Valen> anyway their internet banking site went down in a weird way
[17:21:34] <Valen> so hundreds of calls come in
[17:21:46] <Valen> missus goes off script and just starts plowing through calls
[17:22:08] <grummund> is a long call the same as a longjmp except you get to return?
[17:22:17] <Valen> "yep its broken sorry, if you need a transfer i can set you up for phone banking, otherwise try again in a few hours"
[17:22:35] <Valen> her managers get up her for not trying to sell crap to these people
[17:22:50] <Valen> (there are like 400 calls waiting in the que)
[17:23:01] <Valen> she gets through 300 calls in that night
[17:23:12] <Valen> the other members of her team get through 50 or so
[17:23:37] <Valen> next day her managers are threating to sack her (as they always did) because she didn't meet sales targets
[17:24:06] <Valen> managers manager comes over, drags them into his office, leaves the door opens and has a shouting type chewing out
[17:24:17] <Valen> for basically being dumb bitches
[17:24:29] <lidenbrock> is it necessary to learn assembly to program avr microcontrollers?
[17:24:37] <Valen> missus sitting there (who was about to cry) laughing her head off
[17:24:56] <Valen> lidenbrock: no ;->
[17:25:28] <Valen> might be an idea to have a look at it and see whats around, but AVR was designed to run C basically
[17:25:51] <lidenbrock> thank God
[17:25:52] <lidenbrock> LOL
[17:26:28] <Valen> some of the teensys and such you might be better off with ASM but eh, just use a bigger avr ;->
[17:26:53] <lidenbrock> =]
[17:27:43] <lidenbrock> Valen: for car applications, would use MicroChip's microcontrollers or AVR's?
[17:28:30] <Valen> mmm, i might be tempted to use pics
[17:28:36] <Valen> they are pretty hard to kill
[17:28:53] <Valen> but if you protect the power supply and any I/O well avr should be ok
[17:29:05] <Valen> whats the app?
[17:29:55] <lidenbrock> signals aquisition
[17:30:00] <lidenbrock> with sensors of gases
[17:30:11] <lidenbrock> and then actions
[17:30:16] <lidenbrock> to prevent injuries to people
[17:31:20] <Valen> wha?
[17:31:29] <Valen> sounds weird
[17:31:54] <Valen> anyway, yeah avr should be ok, just make sure you get the automotive temperature range
[17:32:29] <lidenbrock> ok
[17:32:48] * inflex hopes his reel of T10's arrives today
[17:32:58] <inflex> 2 days late!!!!
[17:59:08] <amee2k> inflex: nice
[17:59:19] <amee2k> what are you using them for, if i may ask?
[18:02:48] <inflex> amee2k: mostly this - http://nqrc.com/?vp=PLD-BAC-55C
[18:04:14] <amee2k> nice
[18:04:20] <amee2k> just... what does it do? >_>
[18:06:39] <amee2k> hmm voltage regulator for wireless transciever?
[18:06:43] <inflex> it's just a regulator with low voltage alarm
[18:06:50] <inflex> for model aircraft gliders
[18:07:00] <amee2k> hmm
[18:07:13] <amee2k> that buzzer is loud enough to hear when the plane is flying?
[18:07:40] <inflex> with the gliders it is aimed at, yes, to a reasonable distance
[18:07:51] <amee2k> that sounds pretty loud
[18:07:55] <inflex> the buzzers hurt my ears when they fire off
[18:08:03] <amee2k> 0.0
[18:08:10] <inflex> and the loudness picks up in the resonant interiors of the glider
[18:09:02] <inflex> been producing these in one form or another for the last 2.5yrs now
[18:09:08] <inflex> Sold about 1000 of them
[18:09:11] <amee2k> cool
[18:10:02] <grummund> hmm, where does it say actually what this widget does?
[18:11:49] <inflex> grummund: good point - forgot to copy/paste that over - however, that said, people going to the site/page know what they're wanting it for.
[18:13:24] <amee2k> hmm speaking about copy paste... getting a bit late but there was another mildly unrelated thing i was wanting to ask for some input on...
[18:13:27] <grummund> i want one anyway
[18:14:55] <amee2k> for the last like half a year i've been using a small note pad for collecting all kinds of formula stuff... nothing special but stuff that i just use rarely enough to not be sure about it the next time i do
[18:17:29] <amee2k> like hmm R/U/I/P resolved in different variations, some stuff on tuned circuits and filters, impedances, power factor, capactitor charge/discharge, ripple, common formulas for voltage dividers
[18:18:03] <amee2k> and it has grown to like 10-15 pages by now so i was wondering if there was any interrest in making a collection for that kind of stuff on the web somewhere
[18:18:06] <amee2k> any ideas?
[18:19:10] <grummund> amee2k: sure, if it doesn't exist already
[18:19:34] * grummund collects weblinks for various online calculators
[18:19:58] <amee2k> well, most of it is pretty basic and you can get to it in a few minutes with wikipedia and/or a physics formulary from school
[18:20:24] <amee2k> but i decided to take note of it because collecting it in one place makes it easier to find
[18:21:26] <amee2k> nothing yet on common circuit configurations or even specific parts. not sure how much sense that makes either since i don't want to duplicate datasheet information
[18:21:42] <grummund> http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/
[18:21:58] <inflex> right, the blurb is all updated now
[18:22:37] <amee2k> also no tables and conversion stuff yet. mostly because it was too much effort to write it down since i'm using an actual notepad for it
[18:23:10] <grummund> why does it need an avr?
[18:23:15] <amee2k> grummund: interresting
[18:23:41] <amee2k> grummund: because otherwise it would be a discrete 7805, but don't say that out loud >_>
[18:25:33] <amee2k> grummund: i'm not targeting calculators and i'm not sure how useful it would be for that. most stuff is short enough so entering it in a pocket calculator is easy enough
[18:25:45] <grummund> sure
[18:26:27] <amee2k> i don't particularly like online calculators because most of them want to be treated like a black box
[18:26:34] <grummund> a calculator that i would really like to see and haven't found yet, is an optimum resistor selector for dividers.
[18:27:17] <amee2k> ooh, tell me about it >_<
[18:27:28] <amee2k> i tried writing one last summer but it sucked pretty badly
[18:27:30] <grummund> that is, i want say a certain ratio and it will suggest the best resistors
[18:27:55] <amee2k> especially "best resistors from Exx series"
[18:28:08] <grummund> that's what i mean
[18:28:14] <amee2k> >_>
[18:28:38] <grummund> and parameteric limits for say min/max series resistance, etc.
[18:29:02] <amee2k> i *think* it should be pretty easy since you can normalize values in the range 1..10
[18:29:49] <amee2k> once you have a suitable pair of values you can select the exponent to get your desired quiescent current or total resistance
[18:30:21] <inflex> grummund: the unit blinks out the current pack voltage, it also can be used as a lost-model-alarm (watches the servo pulses)
[18:30:39] <inflex> (and obviously monitors for low voltage or high voltage conditions)
[18:31:21] <grummund> inflex: and you couldn't do that with a 555 ? :P
[18:31:22] <inflex> I mean, yep, you could just use a LM1117 and you're done - (which is why I sell that version as well ;) ) - but a lot of us like the voltage warnings because we're using lipos and don't want them dropping below ~3.6V
[18:31:31] <inflex> grummund: hah... oh you humour me! ;)
[18:32:57] <inflex> 555's are too big and have wasteful pins :p
[18:33:39] <grummund> what has the world come to? ;-/
[18:33:43] <amee2k> you just don't appreciate the beauty of two perfect extra pins in the right place >_<
[18:33:44] <jacekowski> inflex: 3.6?
[18:33:45] <atmega> LiPo: 2.9 - 4.1V or 3.0 - 4.2V
[18:33:52] <jacekowski> inflex: nominal voltage for lipo is 3.7
[18:34:04] <jacekowski> i'm running my lipos down to 9V
[18:34:09] <jacekowski> 3V per cell
[18:34:19] <atmega> there are several types, but we use only two
[18:36:07] <atmega> liIon/lipo have more load cycles if you unload it only to 3.6V and load it to 3.96V (90%)
[18:36:52] <inflex> 3.6V unloaded is almost empty anyhow
[18:36:52] <grummund> amee2k: i did one in excel but it is specific to LM317 circuit, it shows best resistor combinations for the desired output voltage
[18:37:01] <inflex> the capacity remaining is not linear relative to the voltage.
[18:37:17] <grummund> but also considers other factors such as ideal quiescent current
[18:37:33] <atmega> a japanese producer get 40000 Load/unload cyles instead of 500 - 1000 if you load and unload it form 3.0 to 4.2V
[18:37:34] <inflex> and high dropout
[18:38:03] <inflex> yes, packs survive a lot better with a lower discharge depth, a lot of batteries tend to behave like that
[18:39:44] <atmega> over 3.96V the anode or kathode will be destroyed faster and faster ... 4.2V is not godd if you want to store a LiIon-battery
[18:40:37] <inflex> ja. we dischargeto about 3.85V for storage
[18:40:53] * inflex even sells a thing for that... lo behold, no uC in it though!
[18:41:24] <atmega> I make a test with muche LiIon Akkus, the resistance inside is rising very heavy iv the voltage drops under 3.6V
[18:44:53] <amee2k> grummund: how is a voltage divider for a 317 different than any other feedback voltage divider?
[18:45:43] <amee2k> i.e. where the mid-point is to be held at a constant voltage and the divider values need to be calculated to get a specific input voltage
[18:46:33] <atmega> I write a java console tool for calculation of the best combination (parallel) of two resistors
[18:46:35] <grummund> amee2k: yep it's the same principle but the spreadsheet i made is specifically targetted at lm317 application
[18:46:40] <amee2k> but still, good to get positive feedback. i don't have any idea about the timeframe but i'll make a point to think about ways how i could meaningfully typeset this on the computer
[18:47:48] <grummund> scanner?
[18:48:19] <amee2k> i can post a few pages tomorrow but i don't think that would look too nice
[18:48:47] <amee2k> it looks like scribbled down notes right now, which is exactly what it is >_>
[18:49:52] <amee2k> or what did you have in mind?
[18:51:40] <Valen> inflex: you aeroplane people are pussies
[18:51:47] <atmega> @ amee2k I do not understand what you want to do? (I want to help
[18:52:05] <Valen> we robot people suck 60C packs to 2V during spinup ;->
[18:52:53] <amee2k> 0.0
[18:53:05] <amee2k> thats some hot motor on cell action there
[18:53:11] <atmega> @ Valen no the resistance in the cell make it inpossible, at 2.5V the LiIon cell are damaged
[18:53:35] <grummund> amee2k: i have about a dozen A4 notebooks here full of design notes, test results, etc.
[18:53:50] <Valen> after a 3 minute round people have been known to put bots and packs in freezers to chill them off so they are cold enough to charge etc
[18:54:15] <Valen> atmega: i'm just saying what i've seen impossible or not
[18:54:47] <amee2k> atmega: hmm nothing specific i think. i just noticed the other day that my relatively small but carefully collected bunch of notes might be worth getting into shape to be useful for others
[18:54:48] <Valen> i think the best we saw was 130C on the motor casing
[18:55:09] <Valen> btw dewalt make good motors ;->
[18:55:18] <amee2k> Valen: "C" == cell?
[18:55:24] <Valen> celcius
[18:55:33] <Valen> the 60C is the discharge rating on the pack
[18:55:35] <amee2k> ???
[18:55:49] <amee2k> oh, i see
[18:55:52] <Valen> the motor was 130 degrees celcius after the 3 minute round
[18:55:55] <atmega> Valen: an LiFe cell ?
[18:56:04] <Valen> the batteries were 60C discharge
[18:56:16] <Valen> I use those, that guy was using lipoly of some kind
[18:56:18] <amee2k> also, in some cases damaging the batteries may be acceptable
[18:56:34] <Valen> one of the guys popped an A123
[18:56:44] <amee2k> lol
[18:56:47] <Valen> as in it shot copper foil across the arena
[18:56:55] <amee2k> haha
[18:57:06] <Valen> but that guy could make a house fall down just by living next door
[18:57:12] <amee2k> you guys entering for robot wars or something like that?
[18:57:19] <Valen> yeah
[18:57:24] <Valen> robot wars
[18:57:26] <amee2k> haha cool
[18:57:46] <grummund> amee2k: you could present them on youtube ;)
[18:57:50] <amee2k> well, that kinda explains the rough handing on the cells
[18:58:17] <amee2k> if the fight is gonna be over in 5 minutes noone cares if the cells are dead
[18:58:20] <ali1234> my arduino has stopped responding on serial again
[18:58:30] <amee2k> grummund: lol
[18:58:37] <Valen> 3 minutes for a round
[18:58:42] <grummund> like i watched a clip the yesterday of a guy explaining how to do square root by longhand on a whiteboard
[18:58:51] <ali1234> oops wrong channel :)
[18:58:59] <amee2k> uh, what?
[18:59:03] <amee2k> okay
[18:59:27] <atmega> ali right channel
[18:59:39] <amee2k> well, i wouldn't know what to say about my notes other than hold them at the camera and read it out loud lol
[18:59:48] <grummund> heh :)
[19:00:21] <amee2k> i could probably answer question about them once they come up, but thats about it
[19:00:52] <amee2k> i make a point of understanding the theory behind circuits i use at least to some basic degree
[19:01:07] <amee2k> which isn't exactly helping with making progress sometimes >_<
[19:01:17] <atmega> ali1234: you have a question?
[19:01:54] <ali1234> well, if you know why arduino always stops working on serial...
[19:02:07] <ali1234> the IDE says this: http://pastebin.com/9mahEpBM
[19:02:08] <amee2k> i mean, try finding out how to design a yagi if you want to know more than "google up a random yagi project and just scale it for your frequency"
[19:02:15] <ali1234> no, it didn't change the ttyACM1
[19:02:23] <Valen> I am tempted to make a TV antenna
[19:02:26] <ali1234> it's still on ACM0, the IDE just won't talk with it
[19:02:35] <Valen> nobody seems to make them to last more than a few years
[19:02:37] <amee2k> heh
[19:02:54] <amee2k> i wouldn't know what to do with one anymore >_>#
[19:03:00] <amee2k> maybe other than selling it
[19:03:11] <Valen> I'm thinking of using glass and solid stainless for the various bits
[19:04:02] <amee2k> i want to make a 433MHz yagi for RDF... the wireless weather station at my parent's place is picking up a third sensor that isn't there >_>
[19:04:11] <Valen> heh
[19:04:19] <Valen> or just go for a walk with the base station
[19:04:19] <amee2k> well, it probably *is* there, but it isn't ours
[19:04:22] <inflex> amee2k: if you come up with a good little yagi, I want it too
[19:04:27] <inflex> (for 433MHz)
[19:04:40] <grummund> Valen: Gray-Hoverman
[19:04:42] <inflex> I actually thought of it just etching some PCBs with the right layout to make the antenna, but it makes them a tad expensive
[19:04:52] <Valen> grummund: ?
[19:04:58] <amee2k> we tried to narrow down the location from the temperature readings we got, but no luck yet
[19:05:13] <grummund> Valen: easy to build high gain HDTV antenna
[19:05:18] <atmega> ali1234: I don't have a Arduino board, but the serial interface is in my case: /dev/ttyUSB0 or /dev/ttyS0
[19:05:29] <amee2k> 433MHz is something like 20cm iirc
[19:05:39] <inflex> 17
[19:05:50] <Valen> only issue i have as well is there is one station at 200mhz or so i think
[19:05:58] <Valen> the rest are ~560
[19:06:24] <amee2k> so it wouldn't be too large in general but quite big in PCB terms
[19:06:46] <ali1234> atmega: the device is correct, it worked hundreds of times before. then it just stopped :(
[19:07:08] <grummund> http://hackaday.com/2009/02/08/gray-hoverman-uhf-antenna/
[19:07:19] <ali1234> oh i see the problem
[19:07:27] <ali1234> the IDE crashed but it didn't close the port
[19:07:45] <Valen> that'll happen
[19:08:10] <amee2k> well either way all that the glorious master minds of the ham radio community managed to come up with about yagi designs was taking a 70cm design and scaling it down to 1/4th the size
[19:08:12] <ali1234> java :(
[19:08:21] <atmega> ali1234: "Invalid Parameter" do you have change the sourcecode of the java class
[19:08:38] <ali1234> no of course not
[19:08:46] <atmega> I work with RXTX to and have no problems
[19:08:49] <amee2k> and that reaction kinda made me quietly leave the room, really
[19:09:17] <Valen> grummund: that is one bigass antenna lol
[19:09:39] <atmega> ali1234: you ever try to restart your PC?
[19:09:54] <amee2k> oh, he is running windows?
[19:10:01] <ali1234> 01:01:47 up 12 days, 8:31, 10 users
[19:10:06] <ali1234> so no, not often
[19:10:44] <atmega> is it possible that an other application use this port
[19:11:28] <ali1234> no
[19:11:38] <Valen> heh #australia, 165,000 sickies chucked today
[19:12:50] <atmega> I have a similar problem, the port do not react
[19:13:30] <atmega> I mean the port do not answer
[19:15:40] <grummund> 01:05:38 up 88 days, 8:00, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.06, 0.06
[19:15:48] <inflex> Valen: probably about right :D
[19:16:17] <ali1234> it still works with avrdude
[19:16:26] <ali1234> i guess i'll just dump the IDE
[19:16:40] <atmega> :)
[19:17:39] <atmega> to communicate over RS232 I use Java, to write code: eclipse + AVRplugin
[19:19:28] <atmega> and I write code with wxWidgets to communicate with a AVR with V-USB
[19:20:33] <grummund> hey another wxWidgets user :)
[19:22:26] <atmega> wx is the best way ... or gtk
[19:24:38] <izua> or qt
[19:24:45] <atmega> no
[19:24:49] <izua> QT i say
[19:25:02] <inflex> Qt is nice
[19:25:08] <atmega> Qt is not the qay I would chose
[19:25:08] <inflex> downside is that it's C++
[19:25:33] <atmega> ... not the way
[19:25:43] <izua> why?
[19:26:19] <atmega> if you try to sell a app, you must pay
[19:26:33] <izua> nope, dynamic linking.
[19:27:24] <atmega> and static = pay ?
[19:30:15] <jacekowski> atmega: what?
[19:30:32] <jacekowski> atmega: not since nokia has taken over trolltech
[19:30:35] <jacekowski> atmega: they changed license
[19:30:46] <atmega> what is the reason of the difference?
[19:30:48] <jacekowski> atmega: you can sell qt based apps without paying anybody
[19:32:08] <atmega> I mean: it's okay, but what is the reason?
[19:33:00] <jacekowski> basicaly QT is now on LGPL
[19:36:34] <atmega> LGPL is very good bacause the source of my app should not be open
[20:00:32] <feurig_> so if I have two pin change interrupts set up on the second revision of my current hardware can I call them from within a timer interrupt on the legacy hardware?
[20:22:18] <TeknoJuce> tekno
[20:27:47] <TeknoJuce> karlp, the first link was for the Rigol proper driver, ultrascope was the version from rigol.com
[20:50:07] <TeknoJuce> Think a pololu a4988 could run a 1.5A 8.4 ohm 12V stepper with out burning up?
[20:50:40] <vectory_> hey, quick question, bootloader memory space can be locked, does that hold true for other parts of flash and/or eeprom, too?
[20:51:13] <vectory_> talking m8 specifically
[20:55:52] <vectory_> read-only, that is
[20:56:00] <vectory_> looking in the ds now
[20:57:44] <vectory_> well, it seems so
[20:57:57] <vectory_> now, wouldnt that make BOD partially unnessicary?
[20:57:58] <BrentBXR^> you mean fuse
[20:59:31] <vectory_> hm, i think i mean lock bits, arent directly refferenced in the fuse section, but right befire that
[21:02:19] <vectory_> spm can be prohibitted at least, but writing zo eeprom cant, except for serial and parallel programming modes :/
[21:08:10] <vectory_> btw, the datasheet for mega8 shows two gnd pins, is that a mistake, should one be agnd or doesnt that matter?
[21:30:34] <vectory_> and is 100 nF cap on Aref necessary for BOD or whatnot?
[21:30:52] <vectory_> to gnd that is
[22:00:00] <Roklobsta> Valen: every day is a sickie for e
[22:03:01] <Kevin`> vectory_: if you have the eeprom read-only, consider just storing the data in the application flash area, you might be able to avoid the issue
[22:03:24] <Kevin`> vectory_: some of the newer chips have low power options for the BoD though, like only enabling it during runtime
[22:04:46] <vectory_> hmmmm
[22:05:06] <vectory_> 2 things i will consider, but m8 was the cheapest option and i wanna make it suffice
[22:05:30] <vectory_> Kevin`: i thought eeprom cant be set to read only
[22:05:53] <Kevin`> vectory_: maybe it can't, but the flash can.
[22:06:48] <vectory_> but i wanted to keep data updateable and brown out can damage the chip in other ways, too
[22:07:11] <vectory_> i should see, if bod enabled will be within specs
[22:07:45] <Kevin`> vectory_: if you need to keep the data updatable, you need brownout detection of some sort while running code
[22:08:02] <vectory_> so its either or :/
[22:08:34] <vectory_> or whip out the programmer each time the eeprom is to be updated
[22:08:34] <Kevin`> I suspect there are newer chips in the same price range as the m8
[22:09:13] <vectory_> ye
[22:09:42] <vectory_> was really saving each penny i could, when shopping at the "local" electronics store
[22:09:50] <Kevin`> local?!
[22:09:59] <vectory_> in city limits
[22:10:05] <vectory_> to save postage >_<
[22:10:15] <Kevin`> you can probably save a lot more by ordering online
[22:10:41] <Kevin`> it's rare to have reasonable local electronics stores
[22:11:03] <vectory_> hey, they are listed in atmels dealer list
[22:11:08] <vectory_> but most chips werent available in dip :/
[22:11:26] <vectory_> now that i found a job, i might considder placing a bigger, come time
[22:11:49] <Kevin`> qfp and soic are hand-solderable
[22:12:03] <Kevin`> not as easy to plug into a breadboard, but no real problem
[22:12:06] <vectory_> yeah, if you have the right pcb or adapter
[22:12:12] <vectory_> ye
[22:12:33] <vectory_> still had enough cash to shell out for a launchpad i barely even touched
[22:12:45] <vectory_> bt talking about low power, maybe thats the way to go
[22:13:04] <Kevin`> doesn't really matter to power usage
[22:13:18] <Kevin`> using newer parts that use less power does though =p
[22:13:19] <vectory_> package? ye
[22:13:39] <vectory_> someone mentioned msp430 running of lemons xD
[22:14:28] <vectory_> beat that with "pico" power
[22:14:34] <Kevin`> bah, you can run any of these things on lemons. the real challenge is running on a coin cell for a year ;p
[22:14:49] <inflex> indeed.... AVRs are fine running on 100uA or less
[22:15:10] <vectory_> actively?
[22:15:24] <inflex> hell, it's now actually more efficient for me to use a T10 to turn on/off a MOSFET than to use a pullup resistor
[22:16:02] <inflex> T10 uses 200uA in active mode, 25uA in idle, 0.1uA in sleep
[22:16:34] <vectory_> tiny10?
[22:16:37] <inflex> yes
[22:17:05] <inflex> upside I do like about the AVRs is they're 5.5~6V tolerant
[22:17:16] <vectory_> hm, i lack experience and fail interpreting the characteristics in the ds
[22:17:20] <inflex> I do like the MSP430's, but they're a bit harder to fit into a lot of the designs I need