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[04:55:03] <amee2k> 0.0
[04:55:05] <amee2k> fuck the what
[04:55:07] <amee2k> http://uk.farnell.com/cif/aat10/pcb-aluminium-100x150/dp/4147984
[04:55:59] <Steffanx> :)
[04:56:05] <OndraSter> huh
[04:56:08] <OndraSter> it is all aluminium or what?
[04:56:23] <amee2k> aluminium core copperclad stock
[04:56:35] <OndraSter> oh
[04:57:52] <amee2k> this stuff is sick
[04:58:09] <OndraSter> 'tis for super cooling?
[04:58:15] <amee2k> yeah
[04:58:25] <OndraSter> oh
[04:58:26] <OndraSter> that's cool
[04:58:31] <OndraSter> literary :D
[04:58:48] <amee2k> well, the only real solution for cooling SMT stuff since you can't bolt them to a heatsink anymore
[04:59:29] <OndraSter> hmm
[04:59:29] <OndraSter> http://uk.farnell.com/mega/3204911/pcb-fr4-100x160-ss/dp/3204911
[04:59:32] <OndraSter> costs 1/3rd here
[04:59:39] <OndraSter> in local shop
[04:59:55] <amee2k> i once changed power transistors on a class D amp that blew some
[05:00:32] <amee2k> it had riser cards from like 4-5mm thick aluminium boards, one for each channel with four D-PAK2 transistors on it each
[05:01:43] <OndraSter> hmm FR4 160x100 costs 58 CZK (2.28 EUR), FR2 200x150 is 2.75 EUR
[05:01:48] <OndraSter> photosensitive ofc
[05:01:49] <OndraSter> in local shop
[05:02:01] <amee2k> the only way to change the transistors was to put the board in my "thirdhand" thingy and point my hot air gun at the back (and i mean the kind you find in a workshop, not a soldering hot air station)
[05:02:10] <OndraSter> I think I am going to go with FR2 one for home prototyping
[05:02:21] <OndraSter> wow
[05:02:37] <amee2k> then tin the new transistors with a hand iron, wait until the solder on the board starts to flow, pick the old ones off and put the new ones right on
[05:02:44] <OndraSter> REAL hot air gun :P
[05:02:44] <OndraSter> I remember peeling the lacquer or paint from some old shelf with it
[05:03:06] <amee2k> it took like 5 minutes for the board to heat up enough, and like 10 until i could touch it again
[05:06:29] <amee2k> yeah, exactly that kind of hot air gun :)
[05:07:05] <amee2k> i didn't have my rework station back then, but i don't think it would have gotten hot enough
[05:07:12] <OndraSter> hehe
[05:07:29] <OndraSter> my hot air gun can desolder at about power level 4.5 or upto 5.5
[05:07:35] <OndraSter> but it can go as far as 8
[05:07:38] <OndraSter> can't measure the temp
[05:07:45] <OndraSter> too hot
[05:08:04] <amee2k> mine only has two settings which are labeled 350°C and 550°C... 10EUR at the hardware store
[05:08:16] <amee2k> the lower one usually cuts it for desoldering
[05:09:00] <OndraSter> I have got small "rework" station
[05:09:02] <OndraSter> hotair gun + normal soldering iron
[05:09:08] <OndraSter> (200 - 480C)
[05:09:43] <amee2k> the high setting is pretty overkill... need to be extremely careful because if you stay anywhere for a moment too long the board is going to bubble and delaminate
[05:09:52] <OndraSter> yup
[05:09:57] <OndraSter> already tried that
[05:10:03] <OndraSter> I had here some rather old board with bunch of nixies
[05:10:08] <OndraSter> and 74141 drivers on it too
[05:10:15] <OndraSter> but I don't know what was the board made of
[05:10:25] <amee2k> last summer i got one of these cheap ayoue 852A rework stations
[05:10:29] <OndraSter> I was using hotair to take them down
[05:10:32] <OndraSter> it smelled really bad
[05:10:40] <OndraSter> I have PT-803
[05:10:45] <OndraSter> no idea about manufacturer
[05:10:47] <OndraSter> but it is chinese
[05:11:08] <Steffanx> amee2k .. those rework stations aren't that bad at all, are they?
[05:12:10] <OndraSter> I wish I had infrared often though
[05:12:17] <amee2k> OndraSter: nice one
[05:12:18] <OndraSter> and pick&place machine would be awesome too
[05:12:22] <Steffanx> lol
[05:13:03] <amee2k> Steffanx: yeah, works just fine for me. kinda makes me want to do more with SMT stuff, actually
[05:13:10] <Steffanx> :)
[05:14:00] <Steffanx> I always wonder how good it works with qfn parts with thermal pad etc.
[05:14:05] <amee2k> second one i ordered, actually. the first arrived pretty banged up from shipping so i sent it back. instead of the requested replacement they just gave me the money back without telling so i ordered from another place again
[05:15:06] <amee2k> i took a peak inside the dead one, looks pretty solid. they just threw it around until the pump ripped itself free from the rubber mounts and started banging against the front circuit board
[05:15:39] <OndraSter> I had there huge screw when it was shipped
[05:15:43] <OndraSter> to hold the pump
[05:16:06] <amee2k> Steffanx: i used some scrap boards from old cdrom drives for practice. they had some motor drivers which are like a 15x15mm qfn package with huge thermal pad and it worked fine
[05:16:29] <amee2k> for pulling them off anyway. i tried putting them back on but no way to confirm whether it was successful or not
[05:16:55] <Steffanx> Yeah, I more interested in the last part
[05:17:21] <amee2k> well, it didn't fall off again and from what i could see all pads were soldered
[05:17:39] <amee2k> but thats exactly what i hate about QFN to begin with... quality control for home soldering is a bitch
[05:18:36] <Sgt_Lemming> home now
[05:18:43] <Steffanx> Welcome home
[05:18:48] <amee2k> i want an xray rig
[05:18:51] <amee2k> >_<
[05:19:02] <Steffanx> And a pick and place machine and a few million euro?
[05:19:51] <amee2k> last summer there was a used veterinarian xray machine up for sale for 5 grand or so
[05:20:08] <amee2k> good condition and could do like 40x70cm shots. fully shielded imaging chamber
[05:20:39] <Roklobsta> just make your own. fling some electrons at metal
[05:20:56] <OndraSter> if you make it cheap
[05:20:59] <OndraSter> you can sell your idea
[05:21:00] <OndraSter> and design
[05:21:06] <OndraSter> and make bazilion of money
[05:21:14] <Roklobsta> peeling sticky tape emits xrays. look it up.
[05:22:33] <Roklobsta> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGzRvYU0e3Q
[05:38:22] <theBear> wonder what xray films cost these days
[05:38:30] <theBear> or plates, or wtf you call them
[05:41:13] <jacekowski> it's just a normal B/W film
[06:11:47] <OndraSter> guys, who here is making boards at home?
[06:33:55] <DanFrederiksen> I order in
[07:00:09] <OndraSter> so
[07:00:13] <OndraSter> my board is 239*248mm
[07:00:18] <OndraSter> that's not gonna be cheap
[07:09:13] <OndraSter> where would be cheapset to order the board from
[07:10:04] <nevdull> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=19_20
[07:11:54] <tomatto_> yeah, it look very good. i saw it before few weeks
[07:12:46] <tomatto_> make board with iron looks stupid with that price
[07:13:03] <OndraSter> $65 base price
[07:13:10] <OndraSter> + $95 for 25x25cm
[07:13:10] <OndraSter> ugh
[07:14:25] <abcminiuser> Darn, no Tom_itx?
[07:20:16] <OndraSter> for that price I can have it made locally
[07:20:19] <OndraSter> just 1 piece
[07:20:30] <OndraSter> that price $65+95 is for all 5?
[07:24:29] <OndraSter> ye it is 5 boards
[07:24:32] <OndraSter> that sounds actually not that bad
[07:24:36] <OndraSter> but if the board layout is bad
[07:24:39] <OndraSter> I will waste all 5 :(
[07:24:47] <Sgt_Lemming> https://picasaweb.google.com/115277388924201849210/PCBS?authkey=Gv1sRgCK73t-Cw3pmLmwE#5700073073490541154
[07:25:30] <nevdull> that's why i usually etch out a prototype and test it before i commit to a fab house for production
[07:26:50] <OndraSter> nevdull, can't make this big PCBs at home
[07:27:25] <OndraSter> with 500+ vias :D
[07:27:27] <nevdull> i have a project with two really big mother boards and i redesigned it down to three smaller boards each
[07:27:34] <OndraSter> hmm
[07:27:39] <nevdull> hehe yah that's too much for home etching
[07:27:39] <OndraSter> can't do that
[07:28:01] <OndraSter> I thought about splitting it
[07:28:04] <OndraSter> into more boards
[07:28:18] <OndraSter> and make it into sandwich
[07:28:23] <OndraSter> bottom board logic, top board displa
[07:28:24] <OndraSter> y
[07:28:56] <nevdull> maybe stack them with standoffs
[07:29:02] <OndraSter> yes I would have
[07:29:16] <OndraSter> but I'd be pushing few amps through some wires
[07:29:43] <OndraSter> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3936936/all_brd2.png
[07:29:45] <nevdull> maybe design a more solid backplane that could handle the current
[07:30:20] <nevdull> are those leds?
[07:30:23] <OndraSter> ye
[07:30:26] <OndraSter> I'd just triplewire the main line wires
[07:30:42] <OndraSter> since there will be 5A tops only for barely 1/30 of second
[07:31:19] <Steffanx> I still don't understand why you designed it like that OndraSter .. a stacked design would be so much nicer
[07:31:19] <nevdull> inrush current or ?
[07:31:36] <OndraSter> Steffanx, like split it into two boards? One just LEDs, one just logic & power?
[07:31:42] <Steffanx> Yes
[07:31:50] <OndraSter> hmm
[07:32:44] <OndraSter> and either some IDE-like cable for the power or just normal standing "pins"
[07:32:45] <Steffanx> Then you could even use 4 boards next to each other to make a big ass one. With the current design you cant
[07:33:30] <nevdull> it'd prolly be cooler that way, too
[07:33:35] <OndraSter> 4 boards?
[07:33:44] <Steffanx> or 156 :P
[07:33:45] <OndraSter> as in, split the LED boards?
[07:34:04] <Steffanx> I meant, 4 boards with 4 controllers.
[07:34:15] <OndraSter> to make it bigger?
[07:34:16] <OndraSter> :P
[07:34:19] <Steffanx> Without having some space between the boards
[07:34:27] <OndraSter> hm
[07:57:38] <_abc_> Is there a free and/or open source SCRIPTABLE avr simulator? atmega series especially?
[07:57:41] <_abc_> I need to be able to set up test vectors, jump into code, and terminate on trace condition
[07:58:31] <OndraSter> I think I will write one AVR emulator someday
[07:59:51] <Sgt_Lemming> lol
[08:00:12] <Sgt_Lemming> good luck on that on OndraSter, biggest issue there is emulating the input and output signals
[08:00:31] <OndraSter> yep
[08:04:09] <Steffanx> What's wrong with simavr OndraSter ?
[08:04:17] <OndraSter> hmm simavr?
[08:04:23] <Steffanx> simavr
[08:04:23] <OndraSter> is there ongoing progress?
[08:04:42] <Steffanx> http://gitorious.org/simavr
[08:07:19] <OndraSter> how does it feel about some kind of GUI around it
[08:07:23] <OndraSter> for managing IO ports etc
[08:07:25] <OndraSter> peripherals
[09:17:30] <OndraSter> what is the shipping from iteadstudio?
[09:17:33] <OndraSter> I can't find the prices
[09:20:03] <Steffanx> OndraSter .. what else you need? :
http://www.naffets.nl/share/a-20120121-161057.png
[09:20:12] <OndraSter> oh
[09:20:14] <OndraSter> it is in the cart
[09:20:16] <OndraSter> didn't try it there :P
[09:21:03] <OndraSter> wow
[09:21:04] <OndraSter> 5 bucks
[09:21:07] <OndraSter> for 10x 10x10cm boards
[09:21:09] <OndraSter> that's cool
[09:21:10] <OndraSter> UPS ofc
[09:21:15] <OndraSter> nobody wants DHL or UPS :P
[09:21:27] <Steffanx> ?
[09:21:35] <OndraSter> it costs 5 times more
[09:21:59] <Steffanx> Yeah
[09:22:14] <Steffanx> but you probably also get it 5 times a fast
[09:22:28] <OndraSter> I have received packages from china within a week often
[09:32:53] <pingec> The CKSEL and SUT bits are the only ones I need to change to use an external crystal... right?
[09:33:41] <Xeli> and CKOPT it seems
[09:34:17] <pingec> I did CKSEL=0111 SUT=11
[09:34:25] <Xeli> I've just changed the fuse bits, and now I can only ever change them after I reconnect the USB cable of my programmer :S
[09:34:26] <pingec> does this ckopt apply to atmega168a ?
[09:35:21] <pingec> hmm well I programmed those values but my led is not flashing anymore
[09:35:40] <pingec> maybe I connected it wrong
[09:45:18] <pingec> no clue :/
[09:46:19] <impulze> you killed it :(
[09:46:26] * impulze calls the feds
[09:46:42] <nevdull> pingec: you might want to look at CKDIV8 as well
[09:55:05] <aesok> [-
[09:55:42] <grummund> ckdiv8 shouldn't need to change when going frm internal osc. to external crystal
[09:57:22] <grummund> pingec: the usual mistake is people select Ext. Crystal Osc. instead of Ext. Crystal
[09:57:37] <pingec> hmm
[09:58:19] <pingec> I chose Ext. Full Swing Crystal
[09:58:26] <pingec> CKSEL=0111 SUT=11
[09:58:36] <grummund> should be okay
[09:59:12] <pingec> ckdiv8 should not change anything whether programmed or not, right?
[09:59:19] <pingec> I mean my led should still be blinking
[09:59:26] <pingec> just faster/slower
[09:59:39] <grummund> ckdiv8 divides the clock by 8
[09:59:44] <grummund> yep
[09:59:49] <pingec> :/
[10:00:12] <grummund> hook it up in HVPP mode to read the fuses and then paste here what is EXT, HIGH and LOW fuse hex values
[10:00:24] <grummund> someone can then check it for you
[10:00:39] <pingec> I can tell you from memory
[10:02:06] <grummund> and?
[10:02:48] <_abc_> still dumping core :)
[10:03:42] <pingec> http://shrani.si/f/41/or/4ENHF2YT/capture2.png
[10:04:05] <pingec> I programmed these values
[10:04:20] <impulze> you really needed a picture for those 3 values? :S
[10:04:33] <pingec> it seemed faster
[10:04:34] <pingec> lol
[10:04:37] <impulze> ok
[10:05:07] <grummund> that is avr studio, rght?
[10:05:20] <pingec> that is from a fuse calc
[10:05:25] <pingec> http://www.engbedded.com/fusecalc/
[10:05:29] <_abc_> gaah
[10:05:38] <_abc_> and yes ckdiv8 is set there
[10:05:57] <_abc_> it's the high bit in high fuses afair
[10:06:14] <pingec> why would ckdiv8 make it not work?
[10:06:21] <pingec> I cant access it via ISP
[10:07:11] <grummund> avrstudio disagrees with you _abc_
[10:07:18] <_abc_> hmm?
[10:07:33] <_abc_> Afair it's always the high bit in fuses
[10:07:52] <_abc_> where is it? I joined late, which device is this? 168? 328?
[10:07:57] <grummund> my guess is either the crystal is not hooked up correctly or the chip is borked in dW mode again
[10:07:58] <pingec> maybe i should hook it up in hvpp mode just to make sure...
[10:08:01] <pingec> 168a
[10:08:18] <pingec> I did not touch dw mode
[10:08:19] <pingec> ...yet
[10:08:29] <_abc_> pingec: imho just hook up a clock source and have a go with really slow clocking on the control pins
[10:08:35] <_abc_> dw is what?
[10:08:41] <pingec> debugwire
[10:08:47] <_abc_> k
[10:09:01] <pingec> what could I use as clock source?
[10:09:23] <pingec> I tried 4 different crystals
[10:09:29] <_abc_> 555 wired as oscillator. 1kohm and 1nf cap
[10:09:42] <pingec> 555 ?
[10:10:19] <_abc_> pingec: from memory: 1-gnd 2+6--1k---3 3 is output, 2+6--1nf--GND 8-VCC
[10:10:22] <_abc_> LM555
[10:10:40] <_abc_> This will oscillate at a few tens of khz and allow you to program
[10:10:56] <_abc_> feed pin 3 to the avr clock input pin
[10:10:59] <OndraSter> I presume that they do vias and drills at iteadstudio... :P
[10:11:05] <_abc_> there is no need to disconnect the xtal
[10:11:32] <amee2k> why are fabbed boards so expensive >_<
[10:11:36] <pingec> but i need to get this lm555
[10:11:37] <_abc_> pingec: 2+6 means tie pins 2 and 6 together
[10:11:43] <OndraSter> amee2k, because many people need to make money on it
[10:11:52] <_abc_> pingec: you don't have a lm555 in your junk box? Everyone has 10!
[10:11:56] <OndraSter> heh
[10:11:58] <OndraSter> neither do I
[10:12:01] <_abc_> lol
[10:12:03] <grummund> It's not hard to hookup a crystal, if the fuses are set for ext. crystal it should just work.
[10:12:04] <OndraSter> but I have several atmegas :P
[10:12:12] <pingec> let me ask around
[10:12:15] <amee2k> 38EUR before shipping for a shitty 6x20cm board is ridiculous
[10:12:17] <_abc_> whippersnappers. Hey program your OTHER Arduino as a clock source then <wink>
[10:12:39] <_abc_> grummund: assume nothing. I.e. xtal mode cannot be assumed
[10:12:53] <OndraSter> if not internal RC, external crystal, then only two options are left
[10:13:02] <OndraSter> external RC (is ti possible?) and external clock
[10:13:10] <_abc_> pingec: is there anything near you that has a working xtal osc on it?
[10:13:13] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vvY7
[10:13:16] <OndraSter> 'tis LED module
[10:13:20] <grummund> _abc_: in which case external clock might not work either...
[10:13:21] <OndraSter> gonna need four per board
[10:13:22] <pingec> not really
[10:13:33] <amee2k> solder stop and silkscreen each are another 18EUR per side
[10:13:41] <_abc_> grummund: it works even in rc mode, it forces the circuit to output pulses into the internal clock bus
[10:13:54] <grummund> since HVPP appears to be available why not double check the fuses with that first?
[10:14:05] <_abc_> grummund: okay, then do that :)
[10:14:06] <OndraSter> amee2k,
http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=19_20
[10:14:10] <OndraSter> seems like reasonable prices
[10:14:37] <carp3> Hi, i want to control a Hobby BLDC ESC using PWM. so i need High precision 50Hz PWM ( maybe 32bit) is there any way to do it with AVR ? ( External PWM Generator ? ) ( sorry for my English )
[10:14:37] <pingec> Ok
[10:14:59] <pingec> need some time to rewire to hvpp
[10:15:44] <amee2k> OndraSter: is that a US store?
[10:15:51] <OndraSter> china appearantly
[10:15:55] <OndraSter> everything cheap is from china
[10:15:58] <amee2k> same difference
[10:16:19] <amee2k> then 90% they only take credit cards and shipping is obscenely expensive and slow
[10:16:43] <OndraSter> shipping 5 bucks
[10:16:47] <OndraSter> for 10x 10x10cm boards
[10:16:52] <amee2k> last time i ordered from china i waited for two months
[10:17:02] <OndraSter> huh
[10:17:05] <amee2k> OndraSter: i need one or two boards, 6x20cm each
[10:17:05] <OndraSter> ebay?
[10:17:26] <amee2k> it is just a prototype, not a finished series
[10:17:35] <OndraSter> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_20&products_id=518
[10:17:49] <OndraSter> why are other colors than green silkscreen paid more? :(
[10:17:53] <OndraSter> I WANT RED OR WHITE PCBS
[10:18:05] <amee2k> i couldn't care less about the color lol
[10:18:21] <amee2k> OndraSter: what payment options do they accept?
[10:18:26] <OndraSter> paypal
[10:18:38] <amee2k> what else?
[10:19:13] <OndraSter> VISA on your paypal :P
[10:19:44] <amee2k> i don't have a credit card for paypal, and this way it is apparently kinda useless
[10:19:55] <OndraSter> oh
[10:20:01] <OndraSter> I thought everybody now has credit card
[10:20:03] <pingec> aaaaa
[10:20:08] <pingec> it works!
[10:20:09] <amee2k> too expensive
[10:20:13] <pingec> It was the wiring
[10:20:26] <amee2k> i'd pay more for the card itself than for the suff i'd buy with it
[10:20:26] <pingec> I connected to pin 11 instead 10
[10:20:45] <amee2k> or rather, if i bought the card i wouldn't have any money left to buy actual stuff
[10:21:01] <OndraSter> $1 per month for credit card with enabled internet payments
[10:21:04] <OndraSter> not that bad
[10:21:13] <amee2k> you in the US?
[10:21:31] <OndraSter> plus smth like 7€ yearly for insurance
[10:21:31] <OndraSter> no
[10:21:31] <OndraSter> CZE
[10:21:32] <OndraSter> but it was easier to say $1 than 0.8 EUR :P
[10:22:06] <amee2k> last time i checked even the bank where i have my real bank account wants like 100EUR for the card
[10:22:14] <OndraSter> ugh
[10:22:17] <OndraSter> that's stealing
[10:23:23] <amee2k> i've got a normal bank account with EC / maestro card. if thats not good enough i'm going somewhere else
[10:25:05] <OndraSter> http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=78
[10:25:06] <OndraSter> tempting :D
[10:25:26] <mrfrenzy> amee2k: maestro/EC almost never works with shops from another country than your own
[10:26:04] <mrfrenzy> here a credit card is like 20-30 euro from most banks
[10:26:06] <amee2k> mrfrenzy: no shit. but they're usually for free with a normal bank account, and a normal account is usually for free for students
[10:26:08] <mrfrenzy> and two banks give them out for free
[10:26:16] <mrfrenzy> sweden
[10:27:21] <amee2k> there is some bank in frankfurt i think who was offering a prepaid visa card. when i tried to sign up the website said an automated check concluded that they can't give me a card
[10:27:38] <mrfrenzy> you are too young or have too little income?
[10:27:49] <amee2k> i'm 24 and a student
[10:27:59] <amee2k> of course i have little income
[10:28:21] <mrfrenzy> do you have Swedbank there? here they give you a normal visa instead of maestro/EC
[10:28:25] <mrfrenzy> just that the visa has a credit limit of 0
[10:29:03] <amee2k> never heard of them lol
[10:29:31] <mrfrenzy> that's like the biggest bank in europe :P
[10:29:32] <amee2k> i don't care about the credit limit. i'm not into buying things i can't afford
[10:29:56] <mrfrenzy> right, the credit limit doesn't matter, just that you NEED a credit card not a debit card to shop online
[10:30:44] <amee2k> virtually everyone here accepts regular money transfers and since iban most shops in europe do i think
[10:31:44] <mrfrenzy> yeah some shops do accept that, but not the ones that have automated shopping carts that are only made with cards in mind
[10:31:56] <mrfrenzy> also when you can shop on ebay a whole new market opens up
[10:32:00] <amee2k> ..
[10:32:14] <amee2k> of course the ones that only accept cards don't accept it
[10:32:28] <amee2k> places that only sell pizza will only sell you pizza too >_>
[10:32:41] <amee2k> i do shop on ebay
[10:33:34] <amee2k> i only had to cancel an order once because some asshat insisted on paypal while advertising money transfers are acceptable
[10:33:59] <mrfrenzy> isn't it very expensive to do money transfer to china and us?
[10:34:05] <amee2k> and one dude kept trying to send paypal money to my email address. i kept getting paypal spam because i don't have an account
[10:34:32] <amee2k> wanna guess why i don't order from china if i can avoid it?
[10:34:56] <amee2k> i mean besides the fakes and hoping stuff actually arrives after weeks
[10:35:04] <mrfrenzy> well then you are only seeing 10% of the ebay market
[10:35:29] <amee2k> when i search for stuff i always check "sellers from europe only"
[10:35:51] <amee2k> stuff from the US is rarely worth the money due to the shipping cost
[10:36:53] <amee2k> thats why i don't order from digikey if i can avoid it... i'd 5EUR more for farnell but err 12EUR less for shipping
[10:37:42] <amee2k> thats also why i'm looking for a european board house with decent prices
[10:38:08] <OndraSter> at home is the cheapest for prototyping :(
[10:38:14] <OndraSter> toner transfer or UV light
[10:38:16] <OndraSter> make your choice
[10:38:33] <amee2k> you do double sided with solder mask and tons of vias at home?
[10:39:10] <amee2k> i'm kinda hoping to get my LED board prototypes for under 50EUR... 20 for the board, 10 for emitters, 20 for the driver and control system
[10:39:18] <OndraSter> oh nope
[10:39:21] <_abc_> pingec: what was the problem?
[10:39:24] <mrfrenzy> there are no european board houses with decent prototypes, they can never compete with us and china salaries
[10:39:33] <mrfrenzy> s/prototypes/prices/g
[10:40:02] <amee2k> i wish our uni had a prototyping lab
[10:40:21] <_abc_> mrfrenzy: olimex and others
[10:40:49] <_abc_> http://olimex.com/pcb/index.html
[10:42:24] <amee2k> mrfrenzy: i can't even find a german homepage for your bank lol
[10:42:43] <mrfrenzy> I think they are biggest in northern and eastern europe
[10:42:45] <amee2k> and i've never heard about them before either
[10:42:48] <mrfrenzy> are you in germany?
[10:42:51] <amee2k> yes
[10:43:05] <amee2k> why else did you think our credit cards are so expensive >_<
[10:43:09] <mrfrenzy> I'd ask #ccc about good credit cards
[10:43:15] <pingec> _abc_ the problem was wrong pin, I connected the crystal to pin 11 thinking it was 10
[10:43:17] <_abc_> ha
[10:43:21] <_abc_> pingec: lol
[10:43:26] <pingec> I checked 2 times
[10:43:33] <amee2k> lol
[10:43:36] <pingec> Only the third I spotted it :/
[10:43:39] <amee2k> freenode has a channel about credit cards?
[10:43:57] <_abc_> amee2k: I think the CCC chaos was meant
[10:44:04] <mrfrenzy> correct
[10:44:11] <amee2k> since when do they offer credit cards? o.O
[10:44:23] <_abc_> mrfrenzy: and you ask them for good cc's in what way? As in 'we know it, we cracked it' ?
[10:44:49] <mrfrenzy> they probably know which bank has the best deal
[10:44:53] <_abc_> that's a great reference man
[10:45:08] <_abc_> 'we cracked it and it was harder than most' <sncr>
[10:45:11] <mrfrenzy> since they will be on ebay every day :)
[10:45:26] <_abc_> mrfrenzy: what does ccc do on ebay!?
[10:45:38] <amee2k> political hookers?
[10:45:39] <mrfrenzy> the members are hackers
[10:45:47] <_abc_> yes, and...
[10:45:47] <mrfrenzy> surely they shop components and stuff, just like us
[10:45:51] <_abc_> lol
[10:46:01] <_abc_> mrfrenzy: and you know that, because?!
[10:46:13] <mrfrenzy> because I've been there and seen them building stuff
[10:46:19] <_abc_> ok
[10:46:25] <mrfrenzy> they would be bankrupt buying thousands of LEDs from !ebay ;)
[10:46:44] <amee2k> lol
[10:46:47] <_abc_> lol
[10:46:53] <amee2k> thats the problem, i only want two >_<
[10:47:01] <_abc_> I find Olimex is okay for price if you have a large enough job
[10:47:07] <_abc_> Never used them before though
[10:47:56] <_abc_> 15 day 50 sq. dm board is not so bad
[10:48:04] <_abc_> 240 euros however...
[10:49:43] <amee2k> what is the diff between DSS and DSQ?
[10:49:56] <_abc_> through hole plating?
[10:50:05] <_abc_> no, size
[10:50:20] <_abc_> S is 160x100 Euro Q is 4 times that
[10:50:21] <amee2k> besides that *Q is almost 4x the price
[10:50:32] <amee2k> i need ~6x20cm
[10:50:43] <_abc_> fits on Q
[10:50:48] <amee2k> wow
[10:50:54] <amee2k> 120EUR for one board then
[10:51:08] <_abc_> yeah wow
[10:51:20] <amee2k> even pcb pool is cheaper
[10:51:59] <_abc_> you are looking at the 3 day turnaround option?!
[10:52:38] <amee2k> ooh, err
[10:52:45] <amee2k> thats the express price?
[10:52:48] <_abc_> yes
[10:53:11] <_abc_> it's 300€ for 2sided 50sq dm
[10:53:26] <_abc_> your boards are 6x20 ~ 1.2sq dm each
[10:53:47] <_abc_> so they should be around 6€ each
[10:53:48] <amee2k> that would be 7.20EUR for my board
[10:53:55] <amee2k> thats much better
[10:53:57] <_abc_> but you need to find buddies to panelize with :)
[10:55:01] <amee2k> they don't do centralized panelizing?
[10:55:58] <amee2k> how thick is what people call "2oz plating" in metric units?
[10:56:28] <_abc_> 35um
[10:56:36] <_abc_> sorry 70um I think
[10:56:44] <amee2k> hmm i see
[10:57:28] <_abc_> 70um is very expensive and only used in higher end boards for power supplies and the like
[10:57:41] <amee2k> then 35 will have to do. what is pretty cool is that they offer thinner laminates
[10:57:46] <_abc_> Using more copper doubles processing time and also chemical usage
[10:58:09] <_abc_> amee2k: did you check the pcb services available in target5 directly?
[10:58:14] <_abc_> amee2k: see ibf.de
[10:58:19] <OndraSter> I think I will make it supersandwich
[10:58:21] <_abc_> Beware their format it is a lock in
[10:58:23] <OndraSter> 3 layers:
[10:58:35] <OndraSter> the lowest: metal plate with holes for stands for each board
[10:58:36] <_abc_> amee2k: If you design in their target it is very hard to move it elsewhere
[10:58:42] <OndraSter> middle plate: logic board & power board
[10:58:47] <amee2k> "institut für betriebsführung"?
[10:58:49] <_abc_> amee2k: as a plus you can order the boards directly from the software
[10:58:58] <_abc_> amee2k: ibfriedrich.de sorry
[10:58:59] <amee2k> i'm working on it in kicad right now
[10:59:00] <OndraSter> top plate: LEDs :P
[10:59:17] <_abc_> amee2k: ah
[10:59:26] <OndraSter> I am just thinking if there is simple way how to connect two boards for higher currents (upto 5A)
[10:59:30] <OndraSter> by wire
[10:59:37] <OndraSter> make 1pin in & 1pin out?
[10:59:41] <amee2k> i don't like eagle but that doesn't really matter because the board is too big anyway
[11:00:23] <amee2k> _abc_: where do they have their board prices?
[11:02:08] <amee2k> ooh, its under "service -> lp herstellung"
[11:02:13] <amee2k> http://www.multi-circuit-boards.eu/
[11:03:13] <_abc_> http://www.pcb-pool.com/ try this?
[11:03:27] <amee2k> thats what i meand by pcb pool earlier
[11:03:40] <_abc_> amee2k: they don't do boards their free schematic and pcb software is integrated with makers so you click and send your design to a house directly and get a quote
[11:03:47] <_abc_> amee2k: ok
[11:04:22] <amee2k> a friend of mine recommended them last summer. from what i can see 38EUR plus 18EUR per side each for solder stop and silkscreen
[11:04:27] <_abc_> 1dm^2 48€ ?!
[11:04:34] <_abc_> Wtf is that gold plated or what?!
[11:05:37] <_abc_> that is INSANE
[11:06:19] <mrfrenzy> it's european salaries, european rent etc
[11:06:24] <mrfrenzy> and european taxes
[11:06:45] <amee2k> european hookers
[11:07:01] <_abc_> By that standard, olimex is competitive :)
[11:07:07] <amee2k> yeah
[11:07:31] <amee2k> entering stuff into the price calculator for that multicircuitboards site
[11:07:35] <keenerd> I'd invest in a home photolitho setup at those prices.
[11:07:52] <_abc_> keenerd: better invest into a router
[11:07:57] <amee2k> wtf, they do up to 400um plating 0.0
[11:08:11] <_abc_> keenerd: photolitho is half the story if you need plated through holes
[11:08:17] <amee2k> for one-offs pcb milling sounds pretty cool, actually
[11:08:48] <_abc_> http://www.multi-circuit-boards.eu/en/ amee2k 2 layers probably about 41€ amee2k
[11:09:02] <keenerd> Isn't photo better at SMT traces than a router?
[11:09:23] <amee2k> calculator says 62EUR per board
[11:09:27] <_abc_> keenerd: depends on who chooses the router bit.
[11:10:04] <amee2k> wtf
[11:10:12] <amee2k> thinner substrate is more expensive??
[11:10:33] <amee2k> only 38EUR for 1.5mm substrate instead of 1.0
[11:10:52] <amee2k> only 4EUR more for 70um plating though. thats cool
[11:11:16] <_abc_> hmm they must have some trick
[11:11:23] <_abc_> you need 70u plating?
[11:11:31] <_abc_> what's on the boards? PSU?
[11:11:40] <amee2k> power LED board
[11:11:59] <_abc_> get Al back board
[11:12:41] <amee2k> only four 1A LEDs. i want to leave off the solder stop on the back and perforate the board with vias and and large ground planes
[11:12:52] <amee2k> then bolt the back against the case to act as heatsink
[11:13:18] <amee2k> i haven't seen a single place that offers aluminium core boards
[11:14:09] <_abc_> http://en.xn--yciska-keb85b.eu/en_pcb_circuit_board____.php amee2k place in poland
[11:14:12] <amee2k> too bad they don't seem to offer tin plating
[11:15:38] <amee2k> 6EUR per board, but since i can't select it i'd assume regular fr4 substrate
[11:15:46] <_abc_> ya
[11:16:49] <amee2k> ah, there it is. 1.2-1.5mm fr4, no solder stop, plated holes, no silkscreen
[11:16:54] <_abc_> http://www.panel-pool.com/ hah the sister site of pcb-pool
[11:16:59] <amee2k> only 18um copper plating though. thats a bit flimsy
[11:17:42] <_abc_> Yes, making boards is complicated in EU
[11:18:02] <amee2k> no shit
[11:18:39] <amee2k> olimex does western union
[11:19:03] <amee2k> they charge 30EUR handling fee for bank transfers and 5% handling fee for paypal transfers
[11:19:28] <_abc_> amee2k: umm that Polish place does NOT have through contacts on boards
[11:19:52] <amee2k> then what does "metallization of holes" mean?
[11:19:53] <_abc_> and 18u is the normal copper thickness
[11:20:01] <_abc_> amee2k: read the whole sentence.
[11:20:23] <_abc_> printed circuit boards are WITHOUT solder mask, metallization of holes,...
[11:20:41] <amee2k> without fr4 too?
[11:20:51] <_abc_> amee2k: another way is to use 0.5mm boards single sided and rely on low thickness for good heat transfer
[11:20:59] <_abc_> amee2k: fr4 is the material.
[11:21:08] <amee2k> but it is in the same sentence >_>
[11:21:26] <amee2k> and without "without tin"
[11:21:42] <_abc_> amee2k: ...without... FROM FR4 laminate.
[11:21:48] <_abc_> there should have been a comma there
[11:21:59] * _abc_ gives amee2k a -D for reading comprehension.
[11:22:04] <amee2k> >_>
[11:22:44] <amee2k> not sure the driver circuit would route well on a single layer
[11:23:06] <amee2k> i'm mostly relying on a pile of vias to get the heat to the bottom layer, then through direct contact to the heatsink
[11:23:36] <amee2k> cree had an interresting appnote on that approach. seems to work well enough if you can afford the board area
[11:24:42] <_abc_> amee2k: it assumes manufacturing capability you do not have
[11:25:03] <_abc_> go with 0.5mm FR4 single sided and bond it to a heatsink with thermal epoxy
[11:25:26] <_abc_> The heat conductivity of 0.5mm FR4 is not so bad
[11:26:48] <_abc_> hehe good ti paper
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slua236/slua236.pdf
[11:27:49] <amee2k> olimex can't do plate holes?
[11:29:08] <amee2k> FAQ says all holes will be plated with 50um (i.e. oversize drill sizes by 100u to get the right final size)
[11:29:23] <_abc_> amee2k: sure they plate
[11:29:34] <_abc_> amee2k: do you have 300€ loose for led lights?
[11:30:01] <_abc_> I can't imagine anyone but for a grow op paying that kind of dought for a couple of lights
[11:30:07] <amee2k> doesn't say about hole plating anywhere on the price list
[11:30:16] <_abc_> amee2k: who? Olimex?
[11:30:19] <amee2k> yes
[11:30:21] <_abc_> amee2k: 2s is plated
[11:30:32] <amee2k> yeah, thats what the faq says
[11:30:42] <_abc_> amee2k: therefore the faq about drills
[11:30:55] <amee2k> if i don't use their express service their prices weren't too bad
[11:31:07] <_abc_> I wonder WHAT you grow...
[11:31:19] <amee2k> dicks?
[11:31:21] <amee2k> erm
[11:31:25] <_abc_> plural even?
[11:31:26] <amee2k> did i say that out loud? :P
[11:31:35] <_abc_> No, you whispered it in your usual way
[11:31:42] <_abc_> Do you still have your own channel?
[11:31:44] <amee2k> yes, thats what i usually do.
[11:32:05] <amee2k> lol
[11:32:23] <_abc_> http://www.leiton.de/pcb-high-current.html amee2k neat
[11:33:06] <amee2k> i don't have a "channel", i joined it a while ago to talk to some people in private somewhere and never bothered to part after that
[11:33:22] <amee2k> i have no idea how frogs and whoever found it >_>
[11:34:32] <amee2k> anyway, gotta run shopping now. i just got invited for dinner over to some friends in 30 minutes and after that shops will be closed
[11:43:33] <_abc_> amee2k: frogs finds [tm] such things
[11:43:47] <_abc_> amee2k: I think he does that for a living
[11:43:50] * _abc_ shudders
[12:14:00] <OndraSter> guys, under which should I search
http://www.gme.cz/_dokumentace/dokumenty/832/832-046/pctdetail.832-046.1.jpg
[12:14:00] <OndraSter> on farnell?
[12:14:00] <OndraSter> I need 2 pinned versions of these
[12:14:05] <OndraSter> or 6pinned
[12:15:38] <OndraSter> I need some simple way how to chain those LEDs
[12:21:27] <keenerd> Those are just generic right angle female headers. Some places (well, just Jameco) don't carry any female headers.
[13:42:01] <OndraSter_> http://i.imgur.com/7CvDg.png
[13:42:08] <OndraSter_> (for HL fans.. I bet here are many
[14:19:02] <fax8> hello, I'm trying to compile some of the Firmwares of the Micropendous project (
http://micropendous.googlecode.com/files/Micropendous-2011-11-26.zip) using avr-gcc
[14:19:19] <fax8> but the compilation always fails with:
[14:19:22] <fax8> collect2: ld terminated with signal 11 [Segmentation fault]
[14:19:59] <fax8> I'm using avr-gcc 4.6.2 on a 64bit Archlinux.
[14:20:13] <fax8> do you think this is a bug of the compiler or the libraries?
[14:20:38] <specing> ld is part of binutils
[14:22:14] <fax8> ok, but is it normal that it sigfaults?
[14:22:23] <specing> Ofcourse not
[14:23:28] <fax8> ok, what do you suggest to do? open a bug report?
[14:26:43] <amee2k> _abc_: some people [weasel word] have suspected before that he is a forensics engineer who was driven mad by his own trade
[14:27:04] <_abc_> amee2k: hmm? who? frogs?
[14:27:08] <amee2k> yes :P
[14:27:12] <_abc_> amee2k: nah, he's a Spitzel :)
[14:27:16] * amee2k just read the backlog
[14:27:17] <amee2k> LOL
[14:27:21] <_abc_> And he colports information like a barber
[14:27:26] <amee2k> paranoid android
[14:28:09] <_abc_> You know it is useful to have someone with a strong compulsive disorder on channel, also someone with Asperger's. He will keep records better than a bot >:~
[14:28:43] <_abc_> Anyway he's okay usually.
[14:29:01] <_abc_> I think we're toast he knows EVERYTHING <g>
[14:29:49] <amee2k> haha true
[14:29:51] <Essobi> _abc_: :D
[14:30:20] <Essobi> Sorry, but I enjoy the walking dictionary types. They're usually very interesting to have a conversation with.
[14:30:37] <amee2k> leiton is 35EUR/board
[14:30:55] <amee2k> excl vat apparently
[14:30:55] <_abc_> amee2k: ds and plated?
[14:31:01] <_abc_> Where? UK?
[14:31:04] <Essobi> Just don't play Trivial Pursuit with an aspy.
[14:31:10] <amee2k> ds, but not sure about plated. trying to figure that out right now
[14:31:28] <_abc_> amee2k: With EU chemical regulations I think they had to hide the pcb manufacture plant in a place hidden better than any meth lab
[14:31:37] <Essobi> O_O
[14:31:50] <amee2k> seems like i won't get much below 30/board in singles if i want to stay within europe
[14:32:00] <_abc_> Essobi: Seriously, do you have any idea about the stack of permits and things you need to run a plating operation?
[14:32:09] <amee2k> _abc_: we should buy an old camper van and open an underground boardhouse XD
[14:32:19] <_abc_> I know and I know a place which did not set it up for that reason
[14:32:33] <Essobi> In the UK? None what so ever, but I wouldn't be surprised.
[14:32:38] <_abc_> amee2k: just move in with some meth guys, share facilities and security :)
[14:32:44] <amee2k> LOL
[14:32:52] <Essobi> Just found it funny you equated it to a meth lab.
[14:32:59] <amee2k> that was supposed to be a tv reference >_>
[14:33:10] <_abc_> Essobi: make a list of plating chemical, go to buy that stuff, see what happens
[14:33:15] <_abc_> +s
[14:33:19] <Essobi> luls
[14:33:32] <_abc_> Essobi: Not funny. You can't even get plastic syringes some places
[14:33:37] <Essobi> How many of those are used in precursor processing? :D
[14:33:57] <_abc_> Essobi: they are used in beta testing I think
[14:34:01] <amee2k> wtf are peelable solder masks for??
[14:34:09] <_abc_> amee2k: guess?
[14:34:12] <Essobi> :D
[14:34:21] <amee2k> no fucking clue
[14:34:38] <amee2k> i mean, aren't they supposed to stay on the board?
[14:34:55] <_abc_> Essobi: Also the odds are split on whether they call the drug squad or the bomb squad first for that list of chemicals.
[14:35:13] <Essobi> lol, exactly
[14:35:42] <Essobi> Hell farmers get shook down for buying the fertilizer they use making meth..
[14:36:13] <_abc_> amee2k: I think that the kind they have in view peels off after processing to leave only the places which need to be covered, covered. There is another kind which simply protects the board until it is to be soldered and that is indeed peeled off whole
[14:36:20] <amee2k> welcome to the world of modern politics. don't need no IBM for FUD. especially the F.
[14:36:26] <amee2k> thats industry quality for ya
[14:36:31] <Essobi> *sigh* prohibition takes away the liberties of those not involved. :(
[14:36:59] <amee2k> thats the general idea, yes.
[14:37:13] <amee2k> if you don't want to make drugs, you don't need chemicals either
[14:37:23] <Essobi> Obviously.
[14:37:37] <Essobi> Because that's totally the only thing you can do with cold pills.
[14:37:38] <_abc_> amee2k: I am 99% sure the real meth labs no longer buy chemicals using teenagers going with a list to a chemist's shop
[14:38:05] <Essobi> _abc_: they don't in the US, that's for sure.
[14:38:07] <amee2k> unfortunately we don't have geeks as politicians
[14:38:18] <Essobi> They use smurfers for everything.
[14:38:38] <Essobi> There should be an IQ requirement and a morality contract to run for congress/house.
[14:38:47] <Essobi> <_<
[14:38:51] <amee2k> _abc_: i'm not entirely sure how come that chemists are still allowed to sell actual chemicals, really
[14:38:54] <_abc_> Essobi: the way I read it they actually bribe some chemical suppliers and do it in a grand way. I read that meth production can lead to not so small booms if the chemicals are impure
[14:39:07] <Essobi> _abc_: it does.
[14:39:17] <amee2k> Essobi: won't happen because the ones in there didn't need one to get in >_>
[14:39:20] <Essobi> _abc_: PM.
[14:39:26] <_abc_> amee2k: shut up, you have a übergeek Chancellor, she is a Physicst.
[14:39:46] <amee2k> physislut
[14:40:44] <amee2k> ooh, leiton offers filled vias
[14:40:49] <amee2k> but it is 80EUR extra >_<
[14:42:43] <amee2k> also, what exactly does lead time mean?
[14:43:07] <amee2k> they won't process it until in so-many weeks? or they'll process it sometime during that time?
[14:45:00] <amee2k> options table for leiton says they do plated and non-plated vias, but the calculator doesn't have an option to select
[14:51:50] <_abc_> amee2k: It means you wait at least X weeks until they process it
[14:53:01] <amee2k> i see
[15:51:55] <OndraSter> guys, I am looking for single pin "small" connectors
[15:52:04] <OndraSter> that could handle 5A for 1/30 of a second
[15:52:20] <Casper> probably anything would
[15:52:43] <OndraSter> I am not sure if these
[15:52:43] <OndraSter> http://www.ges.cz/images/pictures/s/spl05.jpg
[15:52:44] <OndraSter> would do it
[15:52:45] <amee2k> define small
[15:52:49] <OndraSter> they would be perfect
[15:53:09] <OndraSter> amee2k, so they fit 0.1" spacing would be best (or 0.2" works probably too)
[15:53:09] <amee2k> i'd recommend banana jacks. they also make them in a smaller version that is like 2mm instead of 4
[15:53:30] <OndraSter> banana jacks are way, way too much big
[15:54:01] <amee2k> the two predominant failure modes of connectors are thermal (i.e. over-current) and arcing (i.e. over-voltage)
[15:54:31] <amee2k> as for the former, average current counts so if you have a pulsed load at low duty cycle you can get away with pretty much anything
[15:55:10] <amee2k> the more important question there is how much voltage drop you'll get across the connector :)
[15:55:33] <OndraSter> I even though about making just holes and simply soldering there those wires
[15:55:35] <OndraSter> that would be the best
[15:56:17] <OndraSter> plus, I would love to simply connect two boards that stand next to each other
[16:00:36] <_abc_> OndraSter: 0.1 inch pin rows are available, and sockets. turned IC pin socket rows can be stacked
[16:11:45] <dofidum> if i want to use a watch crystal with 6pF load capacitance as a low frequency (asynchronous) timer, is that likely to work with atmega's 20pF internal capacitors?
[17:10:23] <OndraSter> btw, when I want to make simple hole for wire
[17:10:28] <OndraSter> I do it with "via" or with "hole"?
[17:12:40] <amee2k> i'd say hole
[17:12:48] <OndraSter> so would I
[17:13:03] <amee2k> vias are usually covered in solder stop and not usable as a pad
[17:14:04] <OndraSter> hmm
[17:14:05] <OndraSter> it will do this
[17:14:06] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vAUG
[17:14:10] <OndraSter> I don't seem to be able to name it
[17:14:27] <amee2k> but then, i'd say hole is just a drill hit and doesn't have any electrical connection so i'd keep looking for something that says "pad"
[17:15:05] <amee2k> ooh wait, you just want a drill hit to have something you can mount the cable on
[17:15:12] <OndraSter> ye
[17:15:14] <amee2k> in that case most likely hole
[17:15:18] <OndraSter> just hole so I can stick wire in it
[17:15:20] <OndraSter> and solder it into that
[17:15:42] <amee2k> hmm so a pad with no other electrical connection?
[17:16:14] <OndraSter> connection yes
[17:16:22] <amee2k> (definition: pad in my book is a drill hit with an exposed copper area around it so you can solder a lead
[17:16:24] <OndraSter> but I don't seem to be able to put the polygon below it
[17:16:25] <amee2k> )
[17:16:31] <OndraSter> yes, then I want pad lol
[17:17:11] <amee2k> hmm see if the part library has footprints for "test pads"
[17:17:23] <amee2k> or otherwise just use a single pin header
[17:17:23] <OndraSter> there are wirepad
[17:17:30] <OndraSter> pin headers are really small :P
[17:17:36] <OndraSter> okay, wirepad it is
[17:21:01] <OndraSter> I knew it wouldn't all fit :(
[17:24:48] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vAYQ
[17:24:51] <OndraSter> can't do it better than this
[17:28:53] <Casper> OndraSter: change your grid and you will be able to make it better
[17:29:00] <OndraSter> hmm
[17:29:03] <OndraSter> no I won't
[17:29:06] <OndraSter> it will complain about distance
[17:29:54] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vB0I
[17:29:56] <OndraSter> this is the maximum
[17:30:59] <OndraSter> ok
[17:31:01] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vB14
[17:31:01] <OndraSter> this
[17:31:07] <OndraSter> but I am at 6.25mil
[17:31:13] <OndraSter> positioning
[17:32:55] <amee2k> what do you need the red stuff for if you only need an unconnected pad`
[17:32:58] <amee2k> ?
[17:33:07] <OndraSter> ?
[17:33:44] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vB1V
[17:33:49] <OndraSter> I am scared of the inductor in the middle
[17:33:54] <OndraSter> and the switch lines below it
[17:34:22] <amee2k> ooh, that pad *does* have electrical connections
[17:34:26] <OndraSter> yes
[17:36:54] <Casper> OndraSter: I would, but I would feel more confortable if the trace was covering all
[17:37:07] <amee2k> may or may not be a problem. depends on what direction the magnetic core leaks flux in
[17:37:28] <OndraSter> amee2k, in both cases it will be causing problems :D
[17:37:41] <OndraSter> I am afraid I can't do it in different way, no size on board left
[17:37:46] <OndraSter> I am pushing it to the last mm
[17:37:53] <OndraSter> limit is 5cm, I am on 4.98cm
[17:37:58] <amee2k> OndraSter: also, i'd run a trace from the inductor to the output filter cap, and connect the supply plane from the cap pin
[17:38:14] <OndraSter> the big cap?
[17:38:17] <amee2k> yeah
[17:38:35] <amee2k> this way you don't get the switched current on the supply plane
[17:38:42] <OndraSter> hmm, 5*10cm costs only $3 less than 10x10cm
[17:38:46] <OndraSter> I think I will go for 10x10cm lol
[17:39:56] <amee2k> also, why do you ahve a pair of 22u caps in parallel with the big one?
[17:40:32] <OndraSter> that's what datasheet for the TPS54527 sai
[17:40:33] <OndraSter> d
[17:41:02] <amee2k> if these are the output filter already, what is the second 4700u for at the bottom?
[17:41:22] <OndraSter> well the big cap wasn't mentioned in the datasheet
[17:41:31] <OndraSter> but I said, "it must be expeted"
[17:42:06] <amee2k> "it must be expeted"?
[17:42:13] <OndraSter> normally I would use it
[17:42:14] <OndraSter> myself
[17:42:20] <OndraSter> but hey, I am n00b
[17:42:46] <amee2k> i don't think you need it. or at least not a huge one like that
[17:42:58] <OndraSter> hmm
[17:43:01] <OndraSter> it would ease up
[17:43:04] <amee2k> that reg works at 600kHz iirc, right?
[17:43:08] <OndraSter> 650 even
[17:43:13] <OndraSter> kHz
[17:43:38] <amee2k> so in 1/650000th second, at full current, that pair of 22u caps would drop how much voltage?
[17:43:49] <OndraSter> ugh
[17:43:56] <OndraSter> assume 5A current :D
[17:43:57] <amee2k> and what kind of impedance does the 4700u cap have at 650khz?
[17:44:03] <OndraSter> hmm
[17:45:10] <OndraSter> 5,209808088904333e-5
[17:45:20] <OndraSter> 1/(2pi*650k*4.7m)
[17:45:35] <OndraSter> that's not good :P
[17:45:53] <amee2k> that is only if the cap is an ideal cap
[17:46:07] <OndraSter> ESR
[17:46:16] <amee2k> and ESL too i bet
[17:46:20] <amee2k> at that kind of frequency
[17:47:01] <OndraSter> cap is gone
[17:47:18] <OndraSter> I'd like to fit the smaller board still though.. maybe if I'd rotate it all
[17:48:48] <amee2k> if i didn't screw up that calculation, 5 amps over 1/650k-th second are 7.7e-6 columb. in a 44uF cap that amounts to 0.174mV
[17:49:04] <amee2k> err
[17:49:13] <amee2k> 0.174V, not mV
[17:49:38] <amee2k> you'll probably want another cap, but certainly not a huge one like that
[17:50:08] <OndraSter> 0.174V is fine
[17:50:14] <amee2k> if you find a nice, low impedance 470u the ripple would be down to 16mV
[17:50:41] <amee2k> 53mV for a 100u cap
[17:51:13] <amee2k> low impedance is more important than size here because it still needs to be effective at high frequencies
[17:53:52] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vB8z
[17:53:54] <OndraSter> smth like this?
[17:55:25] <amee2k> yeah. you could put a third cap below the two 22u ones if you want.
[17:56:08] <amee2k> and similar considerations are applicable to the power input as well. you'll want low impedance at 650kHz after all
[17:56:35] <OndraSter> input? but input won't be switched
[17:56:49] <OndraSter> well it will be switched but by the adaptor itself
[17:56:51] <amee2k> but the power draw will be pulsed
[17:57:17] <OndraSter> so not two 4700uF?
[17:57:18] <amee2k> decoupling works both ways... prevents noise from the rail to get to the device, but also vice versa
[17:58:05] <amee2k> if your input is allready filtered DC you'll want some medium sized low impedance caps too
[17:58:16] <amee2k> optionally supplemented by a small filter choke
[17:58:31] <OndraSter> hmm
[17:58:35] <OndraSter> manual says two 10uF
[17:58:46] <OndraSter> http://clip2net.com/s/1vBa4
[17:59:10] <amee2k> i'd make the larger than the output caps unless you have control over the PSU design feeding your board as well
[17:59:44] <OndraSter> it will be feeding only the LEDs
[18:00:09] <amee2k> no i mean the power supply feeding power to the dc jack at the top of your board
[18:00:19] <OndraSter> nope
[18:00:24] <OndraSter> it will be taken from there
[18:01:01] <amee2k> i'd start with something like a pair of low impedance 100-470u caps and a 10-22uH choke inbetween
[18:01:19] <OndraSter> so cap - choke - cap
[18:01:21] <OndraSter> hmm
[18:01:22] <amee2k> wait, are the 22u caps you have there ceramics?
[18:01:27] <OndraSter> yes
[18:01:59] <amee2k> then you could try 220uF - 22uH - 2x22uF ceramic
[18:03:15] <amee2k> either way, same as on the output side everything larger than 1000uF isn't very useful because the extra capacitance offers little to no gain, but you'll have a harder time finding low impedance ones
[18:05:05] <OndraSter> well the datasheet says only 2x22uF on the input and possibly 3rd cap 0.1uF
[18:05:20] <OndraSter> no inductor
[18:06:13] <amee2k> the inductor isn't so much for the switcher itself but to prevent the switching noise from leaking out the input
[18:07:03] <OndraSter> no, not inductors, you got no idea how long it took me to figure out what inductor to use for the output, because they had terrible formats to draw for eagle library :P
[18:07:21] <OndraSter> I hope I find some 10 - 22uH choke with the same pads
[18:07:29] <amee2k> hehe
[18:07:56] <OndraSter> ugh it is late, gonna do it 2morrow
[18:07:58] <OndraSter> thanks
[18:08:01] <OndraSter> cya later
[18:08:17] <amee2k> then i'd put a bunch of these 22u ceramics as close to the switcher as possible and a low impedance 330 - 1000u cap between the reg and the dc jack
[18:08:37] <amee2k> i'll be off to bed soon too :)
[18:11:19] <amee2k> you could just put on some medium sized cap footprints and try a few things once the boards arrive
[21:15:18] <Sgt_Lemming> https://picasaweb.google.com/115277388924201849210/ShedPics?authkey=Gv1sRgCPG7o57Vlrj0aQ <--- pics of the new potential space for those who are interested?
[21:35:45] <Sgt_Lemming> off out, later all
