#avr | Logs for 2011-12-30

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[02:54:05] <bram1> anyone know how i can get a sparkplug to spark?
[02:55:18] <ziph> Put around 3e6V/meter across it?
[02:56:42] <bram1> ziph: would this work? http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_ignition_coil_driver.htm
[03:02:03] <ziph> You'd need something to provide it with the switching waveform.
[03:02:34] <bram1> will a button do it?
[03:09:07] <ziph> Yeah, should do, but what do you want to do with the spark?
[03:09:54] <bram1> ziph: I want to ignite a "melkbus"
[03:10:21] <bram1> at newyears eve it is traditional to go "carbid schieten" in the netherlands
[03:14:22] <ziph> bram1: If you just want to ignite something running high currents through underrated wire works. ;)
[03:15:59] <bram1> ziph: true, but i want to be able to do it repeatedly
[03:16:26] <ziph> bram1: Nichrome wire will tolerate that.
[04:46:11] * amee2k idly wonders if inflex is a fake
[04:47:41] <inflex> O_o
[04:48:20] <amee2k> what.
[04:48:56] <`g> wait.
[04:48:57] <amee2k> if you are wondering whether i'm for real, why can't i wonder if you're a fake :P
[04:49:08] * amee2k waits patiently
[04:49:26] <`g> what ?
[04:49:42] <amee2k> you said wait :)
[04:50:07] <`g> wrong interrupt
[04:50:28] <amee2k> hehe
[04:50:34] <`g> ;)
[04:51:48] <amee2k> still wondering why inflex thought i was unreal :P
[04:54:12] <amee2k> bram1: i don't know that term, but we used to light new year's eve fireworks with an old 32V 130VA transformer from the trash and heating wire from an old toaster
[04:55:32] <amee2k> transformer with mains cord and heavy automotive relay as secondary side switch (a normal relay failed after a few hours)
[04:56:43] <amee2k> then run 20 meters of "doorbell wiring" (cheap single stranded unshielded twisted pair, like 2x0.14sqmm or so. dirt cheap on a 50m roll)
[04:57:37] <amee2k> wrap a few centimeters of heating wire around the fuse, and twist the ends to the doorbell wire. clear the area and hit the switch.
[04:58:23] <amee2k> the heating wire used to withstand the current surge if you time it right, but the exploding fireworks usually blew the yellow-hot wire away
[04:58:53] <amee2k> just make sure you have a decent supply of old toasters :)
[05:01:18] <amee2k> you might want to look into "electric matches" like they are used for model rocketry. they go off easily with a flashlight battery and are quite reliable
[05:52:35] <vectory> hello RikusW
[05:53:58] <vectory> didnt find time to learn much, was busy watching 28c3
[05:54:58] <mrfrenzy> well then you learned quite a few things ;)
[05:55:12] <RikusW> hi
[05:55:21] <vectory> mrfrenzy: yeah, how to hack wordpress
[05:55:40] <vectory> or a satellite xD didnt watch that yet though
[05:56:19] <vectory> what happens if interrupts or a specific interrupt is disabled while it occures, will it stay set and call the isr upon sei?
[05:57:27] <amee2k> "28c3"?
[05:57:34] <amee2k> is that the new 2g1c?
[05:57:35] <amee2k> o.O
[05:57:39] <vectory> wut
[05:58:00] <vectory> look it up http://events.ccc.de/congress/2011/wiki/Welcome
[05:58:03] <wreiner> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2011/Fahrplan/day_2011-12-30.en.html
[05:58:41] <amee2k> oh, only a conference
[05:58:52] <vectory> more or less, yes
[05:59:03] <wreiner> but with live streaming of all talks :)
[05:59:57] <vectory> and 30€ arm developement boards for hacking and competition
[06:00:20] <amee2k> also, yeah the part of the hardware that set the relevant interrupt flag will leave it that way so when you re-enable interrupts the missed ones will be executed
[06:01:00] <amee2k> temporarily disabling interrupts to ensure atomicity of some operation usually ensures that you can't miss interrupts completely
[06:02:04] <vectory> thats one way to create interrupt priority
[06:02:12] <vectory> 2 level one at least
[06:02:25] <amee2k> most hardware blocks that trigger interrupts have a bit in some register and the interrupt will trigger when a) interrupts are enabled suitably and b) that bit is set. since it only gets reset when the interrupt is processed you can't miss an int unless you reset it yourself explicitly
[06:03:18] <amee2k> vectory: hmm doesn't that arm board have a display and some funny shape?
[06:03:31] <vectory> its the r0ket badge
[06:03:49] <amee2k> i vaguely remember another dude who was desperately trying to come up with a mod idea for it :P
[06:04:25] <vectory> most ineteresting idea i saw was nyancat ^^
[06:05:04] <amee2k> you could strap a model rocket engine to it and launch it at the stage :P
[06:06:59] <vectory> water rockets perhaps, are those are hard to stear
[06:07:09] <vectory> s/are/but/
[06:07:46] <amee2k> if you can get it to fly more or less stable, it should be enough to reach the stage with reasonable precision :P
[06:09:06] <amee2k> pulsejet engine comes to mind
[06:09:24] <vectory> im going to hunt some food in the local supermerket freezers, bbl
[06:11:12] <amee2k> good hunting :D
[06:18:21] <amee2k> does anyone know if you can access I2C devices from a computer using java? and what kind of i2c interface i would need for that?
[06:20:44] <amee2k> and i don't mean some embedded java gadget but regular java
[06:26:41] <ziph> amee2k: An external I2C bus?
[06:39:58] <amee2k> ziph: define external, please
[06:42:08] <ziph> As in outside of the I2C busses that happen to be used on PC's motherboards and peripherals.
[06:43:15] <amee2k> mmh yeah, kinda
[06:43:50] <amee2k> i'll have to make or get my own i2c adapter probably since the ones on the mainboard are hard to reach and already full of devices
[06:43:56] <amee2k> not sure how that makes a difference though
[06:44:58] <ziph> Yeah, I think you'd have to make your own USB device and use libusb/WinUSB.
[06:47:24] <amee2k> a while ago i had some firmware that ran on a tiny13 and when i plugged it in, i could see temperature sensors on it on the system
[06:49:01] <amee2k> playing around with rxtxcomm right now, but it only detects the two serial ports on my laptop
[06:49:24] <amee2k> but i don't have the adapter here to try, maybe my laptop just has no i2c bus in it
[06:52:23] <amee2k> gotta turn that attiny13 into a permanent setup sometime. flashing the firmware on it bricked it because it disabled the reset pin and i don't have a HV programmer
[07:07:52] <OndraSter> eya
[07:08:05] <OndraSter> so, I took apart old 286 PC and guess what - traces are there by 90° :P
[07:08:09] <OndraSter> turned by*
[07:08:16] <OndraSter> 8MHz bus, 12MHz CPU
[07:20:54] <vectory> OndraSter: as i said, thats not so bad since the frequency is rather low
[07:21:13] <OndraSter> well I won't go above 8MHz on SPI for sure, probably around 4MHz tops
[07:21:53] <vectory> thats not to say there couldnt be wave effects which we both know jack about ^^
[07:22:03] <OndraSter> hehe
[07:22:09] <vectory> the wiki article only mentioned trace length
[07:22:36] <vectory> and wave impedance, but i didnt bother understanding that
[07:22:50] <vectory> as long as i know where i can find info about it
[07:30:07] <OndraSter> I just found out...
[07:30:19] <OndraSter> that I didn't draw those connections
[07:30:26] <OndraSter> as the "paths" but directly on the board
[07:30:34] <OndraSter> rather "route manually"
[07:30:47] <OndraSter> damnit :/
[07:31:01] <OndraSter> that means that there will be no check from Eagle... oh well
[07:32:01] <amee2k> http://www.diodes.com/zetex/_pdfs/3.0/appnotes/apps/an55.pdf << quite interresting way of abusing a shunt monitor IC
[08:34:24] <OndraSter> cerjy
[08:34:24] <OndraSter> http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400151_338575996155072_216396075039732_1318585_1311312792_n.jpg
[08:34:29] <OndraSter> wrong chan
[08:34:30] <OndraSter> sorry lol
[08:44:52] <vectory> haha, n1
[08:48:12] <OndraSter> hmm do I need actually take out ISP pins?
[08:48:15] <OndraSter> if I will be using JTAG
[08:48:20] <OndraSter> JTAG can write whole flash, right?
[08:48:41] <OndraSter> (coming from phones where JTAG is essential thing for recovery)
[08:49:49] <Steffanx> Argh.. why people wear those awful internet meme's shirts OndraSter ?
[08:50:08] <OndraSter> you don't like Nyan Cat? :D
[08:50:26] <Steffanx> Nah, it get's annoying after a while
[08:50:33] <Steffanx> Like many other meme's
[08:51:25] <OndraSter> I have other Q though
[08:51:25] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> hmm do I need actually take out ISP pins?
[08:51:26] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> if I will be using JTAG
[08:51:26] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> JTAG can write whole flash, right?
[08:51:57] <Steffanx> Last question: Yes
[08:52:01] <OndraSter> ok
[08:52:03] <OndraSter> cool
[08:52:04] <OndraSter> thanks
[08:52:16] <Steffanx> You can even make your own jtag adapter (for programming)
[08:52:31] <OndraSter> like... builtin jtag on the board?
[08:52:52] <Steffanx> Just implement the protocol described in the jtagice mkii appnote
[08:53:08] <Steffanx> And how to implement the jtag part is described in the datasheet :)
[08:53:56] <OndraSter> I think I will pass. external JTAG is enough really :D
[08:54:11] <Steffanx> It's a nice way to learn how jtag works
[08:55:51] <OndraSter> now if we had even the rest of the protocol - jtagice -> target chip
[08:56:01] <OndraSter> we could make our own jtagice mkii ripoff :P
[08:57:16] <Steffanx> There is some info about it on the web
[08:57:36] <Steffanx> I tried to implement it with that info, but I sort of failed
[08:58:19] <Steffanx> I still managed to erase the signature of two mega16's with… still don't know how exactly
[08:58:25] <Steffanx> *with it
[09:08:42] * amee2k peens forcefully
[09:09:10] <amee2k> every time i think national's Simple Switcher line is kinda cool, i see their package options
[09:09:15] <amee2k> and then my head hurts again >_<
[09:09:22] <Steffanx> Yeah, i have the same problem :0
[09:09:47] <amee2k> what in fuck's name is wrong with SO-8
[09:10:05] <Steffanx> It's toooo big
[09:10:25] <amee2k> ...
[09:10:38] <amee2k> i think someone's mom is too big here
[09:11:01] <Steffanx> I think someone needs a nap
[09:11:38] <amee2k> fancy package doesn't do me any good if i need 3 soldering attempts and it is still off by a pad
[09:11:56] <Steffanx> Fancy as in… bga-ish?
[09:12:29] <amee2k> not sure if national has them, but i did see BGA SMP controller before
[09:12:47] <amee2k> my avrisp2 had one that failed a few weeks ago
[09:13:15] <amee2k> the current hot shit is apparently QFN due to the thermal pad
[09:14:42] <amee2k> they have some SOT ones too i think
[09:14:53] <Steffanx> So what is the problem?
[09:15:18] <amee2k> besides if i sneeze and the power supply flies across the room?
[09:15:40] <amee2k> soldering qfn is pretty awkward because inspecting the solder joints is virtually impossible at home
[09:16:05] <amee2k> awkward stuff like that makes me want to go back to MC34063s
[09:16:07] <Steffanx> SOT isnt that bad is it?
[09:16:43] <amee2k> well the SOT ones are limited power-wise so they're only good for small bias supplies or so
[09:18:04] <amee2k> also, the simple switchers are kinda hard to get... no wonder noone buys them if they can't solder it
[09:19:14] <amee2k> so bottom line the 34063 is easier to use for projects than the simple switchers. nomenclature wins.
[09:31:08] <Steffanx> make yourself a reflow oven amee2k
[09:37:32] <OndraSter> http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/
[09:38:06] <Steffanx> It's nicer to have a automated toaster oven for it OndraSter
[09:38:24] <OndraSter> I know, that was ment as a joke... I bet he didn't take the dangerous stuff out
[09:38:42] <Steffanx> Dangerous stuff?
[09:38:46] <OndraSter> MOT + the generator
[09:39:37] <OndraSter> I thoguht that you need really hot air
[09:39:45] <OndraSter> like 270C or so, depends on the thermal profile of the parts
[09:40:13] <Steffanx> Most toaster ovens can get ~260 too
[09:40:25] <Essobi> O_O Oh jeez...
[09:40:33] <Steffanx> whaat?
[09:40:41] <OndraSter> yes, they ca
[09:40:41] <OndraSter> n
[09:40:47] <OndraSter> but there is the microwave generator in the back
[09:40:53] <OndraSter> and if you accidentaly turn it on
[09:40:55] <Steffanx> Not always..
[09:40:57] <OndraSter> you get some nasty stuff
[09:41:01] * Essobi points at the reflow in the toaster link.
[09:41:10] <Steffanx> RVS heating elements..
[09:41:45] <Essobi> Saw some kid on youtube the other day reflowing an xbox 360 in his home electric oven. I just kept cringing.
[09:41:57] <OndraSter> lol
[09:45:30] <karlp> if you'r enot doing it all the time, your probably going to have more heavy metal problems from eating fish rather than one or two boards a year in the oven
[09:45:56] <Steffanx> That's why you shouldnt do it in the oven you use for food :)
[09:46:17] <Steffanx> People who do that…. are stupid :)
[09:48:28] <vectory> maybe the guy cant cook
[09:48:29] <Steffanx> I think you should never use ovens both food and pcb's karlp :)
[09:48:47] <vectory> but what about heat plates
[09:49:09] <OndraSter> who was the guy talking here about cars few days ago?
[09:49:14] <OndraSter> about making his own
[09:49:20] <vectory> Oo
[09:49:22] <vectory> ok, im off
[09:49:25] <Steffanx> bb
[09:49:26] <vectory> latorz \o
[09:49:27] <OndraSter> bb
[09:49:33] <OndraSter> it reminded me Top Gear :D
[09:49:44] <OndraSter> yesterday was Indian special btw (who watches TG)
[10:16:05] <amee2k> Steffann: i've considered modding a toaster for reflow use, but that still doesn't solve the inspection issues
[10:16:31] <amee2k> how am i supposed to check solder joints that are sandwhiched between board and part
[10:16:40] <LoRez> xrays
[10:17:02] <amee2k> you want to buy me an xray rig for 20 grand? how nice of you! \o/
[10:17:51] <LoRez> you should totally let me borrow it once you've bought it too
[10:18:04] <amee2k> ...
[10:18:24] <amee2k> i could post some xray porn :P
[10:18:32] <OndraSter> "that's nasty joint!"
[10:18:41] <OndraSter> naked ICs
[10:18:42] <OndraSter> ohhh
[10:18:48] <amee2k> lol
[10:19:27] <amee2k> since there are no bones in the cock, it should be SFW even :P
[10:19:51] <OndraSter> lol
[10:20:34] <amee2k> also, should be acceptable for TV since nipples don't have bones either
[10:29:16] <keenerd> amee2k: That app note made a lot more sense when I checked the datasheet and noticed the "Vout = 10 * abs(Vin_delta)" plot.
[10:55:55] <Kingsy> I was hoping someone around could lend a hand to a newbie? basically I am trying to understand a very basic program --> http://pastie.org/3096751 <-- it works and everything but in eclipse I am getting ERRORS under PORTD, PORTD1, DDRD, DDD1 what are those? constants? or so where are they defined?
[10:56:12] <Kingsy> the two headers I have included don't mention anything about em
[10:57:31] <Kingsy> ohhh nevermind
[11:02:19] <CapnKernel1> Kingsy: Try #include <avr/io.h>
[11:04:24] <OndraSter> more like
[11:04:29] <Kingsy> CapnKernel1: it got it, found the values, I am not sure of the C however tho, if you don't mind telling me what is happening here --> PORTD &= ~( 1 << PORTD1 ); <-- see I am used to php so this is a little foreign
[11:04:34] <OndraSter> try including your device
[11:04:36] <Kingsy> I**
[11:04:39] <OndraSter> oh
[11:05:10] <Kingsy> what is the &= ? why not just use = ? is it because it has been "defined" ?
[11:05:33] <Kingsy> also what is the ~(blah) about?
[11:05:41] <Kingsy> I have just not seen assignments like that before is all
[11:06:35] <CapnKernel1> Kingsy: Read this carefully. Come back when you understand it. http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/avr/c_bits/bits_index.php
[11:13:07] <Kingsy> ummm confusing.. I guess I will just read it a few times.. thanks
[11:15:29] <Kingsy> but I am assuming it is clearing and inverting the bits
[11:15:35] * Kingsy shruggs
[11:24:39] <Steffann> It's not for hobby-bobby use amee2k ?
[12:23:10] <Tom_itx> ok amee2k, this is a family channel... no naked xrays
[12:28:13] <Steffann> Tom_itx is not allowed to see that
[12:28:40] * Tom_itx puts on his 3d glasses
[13:03:39] <brentbxr^> never knew this place existed
[13:03:44] <brentbxr^> anyone alive
[13:03:46] <brentbxr^> :3
[13:04:26] <Kevin`> no
[13:04:42] <brentbxr^> shame
[13:04:50] <Tom_itx> we've been waiting just for you
[13:05:23] <brentbxr^> well im here
[13:05:52] <wreiner> yeeha :)
[13:06:01] <Tom_itx> so what did you bring with you?
[13:06:07] <Steffann> beer
[13:06:17] <Steffann> !beer
[13:07:17] <Tom_itx> just the mention of beer ran him off
[13:07:38] <brentbxr^> nope
[13:07:48] <Tom_itx> no, the other guy
[13:08:23] <Tom_itx> so now that you found us what do you want?
[13:08:51] <brentbxr^> notta
[13:09:07] <Tom_itx> where are you from?
[13:09:23] <brentbxr^> california
[13:09:36] <Tom_itx> oh gawd, one of those...
[13:09:46] <Tom_itx> :)
[13:09:53] <brentbxr^> :3
[13:10:30] <Tom_itx> have you any avr's?
[13:11:06] <brentbxr^> plenty
[13:11:21] <brentbxr^> Im not one of those guys with like 2 megas :D
[13:11:26] <Tom_itx> what kind?
[13:11:31] <Tom_itx> i'm not either
[13:13:10] <brentbxr^> tiny13, tiny25, tiny85, mega8, mega16 mega168, mega32
[13:13:21] <brentbxr^> i think thats it but im at work; so id have to check
[13:13:32] <brentbxr^> have some xmegas on the way but havnt played with them yet
[13:13:47] <Steffann> No need to
[13:13:56] <brentbxr^> mega162
[13:36:03] <Guest19406> ok that was rude
[13:41:27] <Steffann> Sorry Tom_itx
[13:42:23] <Tom_itx> stop messin with that plug
[13:43:28] * rue_house subtly puts some tape on a switch, trying to make sure nobody notices him
[13:44:44] <sabesto> anyone know what the markings, like: "8AI 0614" means (this is an TQFP 64 atmega128l)
[13:45:14] <rue_house> 8AI is the speed and chip class
[13:45:23] <rue_house> 0614 is prolly the date stamp
[13:45:35] <rue_house> made on the 6th week of 2014 or soemthing
[13:45:48] <sabesto> that makes sense
[13:46:11] <sabesto> 14th week of 2006 maybe
[13:46:37] <vectory> more like 7th week, we start counting at zero :D
[13:46:49] <vectory> or 15th
[13:47:06] <rue_house> maybe they swtart at 57?
[13:47:13] <rue_house> (-1)
[13:47:18] <sabesto> well, i got an atmega162 and 128 here
[13:47:30] <sabesto> the 162 is marked 16AI, the 128 8AI
[13:47:46] <rue_house> what evil bidding do you ask of them?
[13:47:49] <sabesto> same package (though fewer pins on the 162)
[13:48:13] <sabesto> and same max clock
[13:49:29] <OndraSter> are you sure they have the same max clock?
[13:49:33] <OndraSter> the 162 is 16MHz
[13:49:38] <OndraSter> while the 128 is 8MHz
[13:50:19] <OndraSter> althoguh I have atmega128a-au
[13:50:22] <OndraSter> no speed definition
[13:50:25] <OndraSter> and it should be 16MHz
[13:50:32] <sabesto> yeah, 8mhz since this is the 128L
[13:50:39] <OndraSter> oh ok
[13:50:46] <sabesto> the one without the L runs to 16
[14:04:44] <brentbxr^> sorry went home
[14:04:48] <brentbxr^> anyone use spice?
[14:07:15] <brentbxr^> what about ATMELs EEPLDs? anyone use those or know a DIY PLD programmer?
[14:13:50] <rue_house> pld, like the 8x24 ones?
[14:24:57] <OndraSter> I like altera stuff
[14:25:03] <OndraSter> altera blaster? $10 from ebay
[14:25:04] <OndraSter> jtag programmer :D
[14:25:08] <OndraSter> it is cpld
[14:48:55] <amee2k> Tom_itx: you can't see my reflective stripes on xray anyway so if any i'd post flyback's xray porn
[14:48:58] <amee2k> :P
[15:20:07] <OndraSter> w00t, only I can put into schematics el cap with + to gnd and - to vcc lol
[15:27:04] <amee2k> OndraSter: i've got lots of caps with + to ground :)
[15:27:14] <OndraSter> and -5V? :P
[15:27:18] <OndraSter> negative rails
[15:27:19] <amee2k> yep :P
[15:27:37] <OndraSter> but I don't ?O
[15:27:39] <Tom_itx> not a good practice
[15:27:40] <OndraSter> :P
[15:27:47] <OndraSter> why Tom_itx ?
[15:27:53] <Tom_itx> get used to drawing the schematics correctly
[15:27:59] <OndraSter> wait
[15:28:07] <OndraSter> if he has -5V and GND, the + comes to GND
[15:28:25] <amee2k> Steffann: no shit :/
[15:28:48] <amee2k> if the pads are too small, the chinese kids in your basement are too large
[15:29:52] <OndraSter> guys, how big pullups you do for buttons?
[15:29:56] <OndraSter> I usually do 10k
[15:30:02] <OndraSter> but this is not "wannabe project"
[15:30:04] <OndraSter> :P
[15:30:17] <amee2k> keenerd: yep, i was wondering that too, but it has separate polarity and magnitude outputs. i've been looking into high speed precision rectifiers because i want to make a "ripple detector" to monitor power supply filters for early warning about dry caps
[15:30:17] <Tom_itx> should be ok
[15:30:24] <OndraSter> or maybe the internal pullup is okay?
[15:30:46] <amee2k> everything around 1-10k should do fine. the internal pullups work too but iirc they're not very strong
[15:30:47] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, if you want to, you can calculate the load on the pin and then you'll know what you need to properly pull it up
[15:31:03] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, i don't trust internal pullups. they are rather weak
[15:31:06] <OndraSter> okay
[15:31:16] <OndraSter> 10k it is!
[15:31:28] <amee2k> i use internal ones for breadboarded prototypes where extra resistors would clobber the board
[15:31:58] <amee2k> or in cases where i have really short connections and a false edge wouldn't do much damage
[15:32:03] <OndraSter> maybe 4k7
[15:32:39] <amee2k> maybe look at it this way... 5k across 5V is 1mA
[15:32:52] <OndraSter> ye, but it also depends on internal impedance of the atmega itself
[15:33:11] <OndraSter> but if the internal pullup is disabled
[15:33:17] <OndraSter> it should be fine with 10k or 4k7
[15:33:21] <amee2k> also, the pullup and your debounce cap will form a time constant that needs to fit your switch's specs
[15:33:50] <OndraSter> debounce cap? Do I need debounce cap if I am not reading these pins as interrupts but polling them?
[15:34:04] <OndraSter> never used them when polling
[15:34:08] <OndraSter> interrupts yes, but not for polling
[15:34:08] <Tom_itx> if it's a button you should
[15:34:18] <amee2k> you can model AVR inputs as always high impedance, and with an optional resistor to Vcc
[15:34:25] <Tom_itx> at least 1F cap on each button
[15:34:33] <OndraSter> 1F?
[15:34:43] <Tom_itx> :)
[15:34:46] <amee2k> OndraSter: depends. if the polling interval is longer than the maximum bounce time specified for your switch, then it will work
[15:34:55] <Tom_itx> read the pin a few times if you're polling it
[15:35:05] <Tom_itx> debounce is typically 20-30ms
[15:35:11] <amee2k> because even if you take a sample during the bouncing, the result is either low or high
[15:35:26] <OndraSter> 10nF then
[15:35:42] <amee2k> if it is low, you'll implicity count it as part of the low half, if it is high you'll implicity count it as the high half
[15:35:45] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, i toss those in once in a while to make sure you're listening
[15:35:51] <OndraSter> :D
[15:36:01] <amee2k> but either way you can NEVER get an extra edge, which is the entire purpose of debouncing
[15:36:09] <OndraSter> amee2k, I am not sure what I am gonna use them for... but buttons are always + lol
[15:36:25] <OndraSter> the one will be for "go to booloader"
[15:36:29] <amee2k> that is how keypads with matrix layout don't need huge amounts of debounce caps... the sampling implicitly debounces it
[15:36:30] <OndraSter> and it will be read 1sec after power up
[15:37:35] <amee2k> then you don't need one
[15:37:51] <OndraSter> like I said, I am not sure if they and what for are they gonna be used for
[15:38:04] <OndraSter> better unused than missing
[15:38:14] <amee2k> you mean, what debouncing in general is about?
[15:38:23] <OndraSter> ??
[15:38:31] <OndraSter> I know what debouncing is about
[15:38:42] <amee2k> ah, okay. i wasn't sure there for a moment :)
[15:38:52] <OndraSter> but I am not sure if anything on the chip will make use of the buttons at all
[15:38:58] <OndraSter> they will be there "as possibility"
[15:39:02] <amee2k> i see
[15:39:03] <Tom_itx> what's it all about?
[15:39:09] <OndraSter> see, the display I am building
[15:39:14] <OndraSter> I want to add simple cursor keys + OK button
[15:39:30] <amee2k> in that case i would opt for a debounce cap. if you don't know the exact use yet it may turn out that you need one later
[15:39:39] <OndraSter> yep
[15:39:40] <OndraSter> <OndraSter> better unused than missing
[15:39:55] <amee2k> whereas having one where it is not strictly required rarely does any harm. worst case get out the soldering iron and pull it off the board
[15:41:02] <amee2k> what in fuck's name...
[15:41:22] <amee2k> i've been running an ltspice simulation of a small power supply for 8 hours straight now
[15:41:28] <OndraSter> heh
[15:41:31] <OndraSter> does it still work?
[15:41:42] <Tom_itx> did it overheat?
[15:41:47] <Tom_itx> go into thermal shutdown?
[15:41:49] <amee2k> and it has finished no less than 1.14 milliseconds of a shitty mc34063 based buck converter
[15:44:22] <OndraSter> so
[15:44:26] <OndraSter> I think I can delete ISP port
[15:44:37] <Tom_itx> bad idea
[15:44:40] <OndraSter> JTAG!
[15:44:53] <OndraSter> I will programm there bootloader through JTAG
[15:45:03] <OndraSter> and from then on it will be through bootloader
[15:45:23] <amee2k> my next board will expose a debugwire port for ISP
[15:45:40] <amee2k> http://ompldr.org/vYnpsZQ/2011-12-30-223448_1024x768_scrot.png << why the fuck is that thing so incredibly slow >_<
[15:45:42] <OndraSter> "what is that single pin there for..."
[15:46:10] <OndraSter> because it looks like loonix!
[15:46:23] <amee2k> "single pin"?
[15:46:34] <OndraSter> debugwire
[15:46:41] <amee2k> ah
[15:46:51] <amee2k> i'll be integrating it into an 8 pin header
[15:46:51] <OndraSter> btw, what resolution is your monitor?
[15:47:02] <amee2k> 1024x768
[15:47:04] <OndraSter> wow
[15:47:13] <amee2k> i'm on my laptop
[15:47:13] <OndraSter> I am feeling small even on 1920x1200 + 1920x1080 :D
[15:47:21] <OndraSter> I might bring there my laptop with 1680x1050
[15:47:30] <OndraSter> or tablet with 1400x1050 :D
[15:47:48] <amee2k> i found that higher resolution on laptops doesn't do me much good because i only end up setting the DIP higher
[15:47:57] <OndraSter> oh
[15:48:01] <OndraSter> friend ended up doing the same
[15:48:02] <OndraSter> but I love it
[15:48:09] <amee2k> people these days can't build laptop panels anymore
[15:48:14] <OndraSter> they bought year ago new monitors at school
[15:48:21] <OndraSter> before - some huge ass 17" CRT with 1024x768
[15:48:31] <OndraSter> new - 19" wide 1366x768
[15:48:34] <OndraSter> and we are IT school
[15:48:36] <OndraSter> for programming
[15:48:37] <amee2k> especially whoever thought glossy tft panels on laptops are a good idea deserves to be castrated with a shotgun
[15:48:43] <OndraSter> hehe
[15:48:56] <OndraSter> my laptop has some kind of hybrid... it isn't glossy so you can see fine on direct sunlight
[15:49:01] <OndraSter> but the colors are better
[15:49:09] <amee2k> this 8 years old dell works perfectly, even in bright ass sunlight
[15:49:13] <OndraSter> :)
[15:49:25] <OndraSter> I have HP 6715b... 3 years old, before 3 years on market and even then it was already old lol
[15:49:36] <amee2k> only the backlight is getting a bit weak after all these years
[15:49:47] <OndraSter> CCFLs :/
[15:49:53] <OndraSter> I wish I could upgrade it to LEDs....
[15:50:14] <amee2k> dell C610... i got it 2 years used when i was in school. been using it almost every day for 4 years straight
[15:50:34] <amee2k> hmm on second thought more like 6 years by now
[15:51:15] <amee2k> ...
[15:51:36] <amee2k> i'm going to kill that switcher sim. at this rate i'll get to the interresting point by tomorrow afternoon or something like that
[15:52:13] <amee2k> what i wanted to see is whether the crude cycle skipping regulator for the negative rail would work or not
[15:52:46] <Steffann> amee2k. "no shit" <= what?
[15:52:55] <amee2k> but after adding hysteresis it isn't really worth the effort anymore... second switcher configured as inverter would be easier by now
[15:53:05] <OndraSter> amee2k, would faster computer help you? I have some spare gigahertz :)
[15:53:11] <amee2k> < Steffann> It's not for hobby-bobby use amee2k ? << that
[15:53:30] <OndraSter> spare gigahertzs on few cores lol
[15:53:34] <amee2k> i have one gigaherz :)
[15:53:47] <Steffann> That was a questio amee2k , i you want to use them for hobby bobby projects
[15:53:49] <Steffann> *if
[15:53:52] <OndraSter> I have four times 4.5 gigahertz lol
[15:54:02] <amee2k> most spice flavours suck pretty badly at multi-coring
[15:54:07] <OndraSter> doesn't matter
[15:54:12] <OndraSter> each core is fast on its own :D
[15:54:27] <amee2k> so unless you run lots of sims in parallel it'll just hog one core and leave the rest idling
[15:55:07] <amee2k> Steffann: yes. if i had a company who would pay a trained monkey to populate the board i wouldn't be complaining ;)
[15:56:25] <amee2k> this is going to be the first time i'm ordering professionally fabbed boards too because my hobby budget is pretty tight
[15:58:01] <amee2k> this is also the first time i want to use SMT on a large (that is, board-wide) scale. very few of the interresting parts are made in thru-hole packages anymore
[15:58:57] <amee2k> fuck, i'm having problems finding some things in packages large enough that i can still identify with the naked eye
[16:25:07] <OndraSter> huh
[16:25:11] <OndraSter> Eagle doesn't show me Vcc and GND pins
[16:25:12] <OndraSter> of some chips
[16:25:16] <OndraSter> namely 74HC154
[16:25:22] <OndraSter> how am I supposed to put capacitor there :(
[16:26:04] <OndraSter> I will have to edit the library...
[16:30:48] <sabesto> OndraSter: weird
[16:31:43] <OndraSter> yap
[16:31:53] <OndraSter> check it out.. in eagle, library 74xx-eu
[16:31:53] <sabesto> should not be too hard
[16:31:56] <OndraSter> and part 74*154
[16:31:57] <sabesto> i did
[16:31:57] <OndraSter> yea
[16:32:00] <OndraSter> already added
[16:32:15] <OndraSter> I actually had to learn how to use the library editor like 2 weeks ago :P
[16:32:20] <OndraSter> there were some chips missing
[16:32:26] <OndraSter> and some needed upgrading
[16:33:49] <OndraSter> huh
[16:33:52] <OndraSter> neither 595 does
[16:33:56] <OndraSter> others probably don't do either ?!!?
[16:34:02] <OndraSter> they have vcc and gnd internally in the library
[16:34:10] <OndraSter> but you can't connect anything to it from schematics view
[16:34:16] <OndraSter> in the schema designer
[16:35:06] <sabesto> what version of eagle?
[16:35:11] <OndraSter> the latest 5.x
[16:35:13] <OndraSter> 5.11.0
[16:35:29] <sabesto> ok, i got 6 and its the same
[16:35:33] <OndraSter> ok
[16:35:36] <OndraSter> what's new in 6?
[16:35:41] <sabesto> no idea
[16:35:46] <OndraSter> is it worth downloading and grabbing .... errr, crack? :D
[16:35:52] <sabesto> there was a video
[16:36:00] <sabesto> is rather
[16:36:30] <sabesto> have not found 6 "for grabs" yet
[16:36:35] <OndraSter> ok
[16:36:37] <OndraSter> :P
[16:37:44] <OndraSter> whatt, package SO16 doesn't even have connected pads :(
[16:37:44] <OndraSter> at all
[16:39:39] <OndraSter> I NEED TO SPEAK WITH THE MANAGER!!
[16:39:46] <OndraSter> -- I am sorry, manager isn't right here right now.
[16:42:48] <OndraSter> wait
[16:42:54] <OndraSter> NONE of the chips has external vcc/gnd
[16:42:56] <OndraSter> from the 74xx probably
[16:44:35] <Tom_itx> invoke
[16:45:26] <Tom_itx> then you can drop the power pads
[16:45:35] <Tom_itx> silly
[16:45:40] <OndraSter> where is invoke?
[16:46:51] <Tom_itx> above 'T'
[16:47:10] <OndraSter> ah
[16:47:14] <OndraSter> whoops
[16:47:15] <OndraSter> oh well
[16:47:23] <OndraSter> thanks
[16:49:01] <Tom_itx> don't edit a lib part
[16:49:12] <Tom_itx> if you don't like it, make a new part in a lib of your own
[16:50:01] <OndraSter> I know... update comes and I am effed up
[16:52:54] <Tom_itx> that's the idea
[16:55:09] <OndraSter> how can I update the item in the schematics when I updated it in the library?
[16:55:13] <OndraSter> oic
[16:55:14] <OndraSter> update all
[16:55:17] <OndraSter> nvm
[17:18:23] <OndraSter> w00t
[17:18:26] <OndraSter> I just finished fixing ERC error
[17:18:27] <OndraSter> s
[17:18:44] <OndraSter> the ones left are those signals on the FTDI...
[17:18:47] <OndraSter> arduino has them floating
[17:18:50] <OndraSter> should I pull them down?
[17:19:15] <OndraSter> or, more like up
[17:29:20] <OndraSter> and the rest are warnings, where it compains that I connected Vcc to Vdd or GND1 to GND etc
[18:10:49] <Tom_itx> OndraSter, now the fun begins
[18:10:52] <Tom_itx> routing the board
[19:26:02] <BrentBXR> anyone is 22AWG small or fat soldier size?
[19:26:13] <BrentBXR> as compaired to say the thickness of a resistors lead
[19:26:16] <BrentBXR> anyone know?
[19:26:42] <Tom_itx> 22 awg is .052"
[19:26:47] <Tom_itx> err no
[19:26:53] <Tom_itx> 22 awg is .0252"
[19:29:20] <Casper> bigger than a resistor lead
[19:29:40] <Casper> I think the resistor lead is #24 or so
[19:30:31] <Casper> yeah resistor is 0.025"
[19:30:37] <Tom_itx> that's vague because it could be a 1/4 1/8 etc watt resistor and the leads are different sizes
[19:30:49] <Casper> for 1/4W
[19:42:56] <BrentBXR> 1/4
[19:43:14] <BrentBXR> ok thanks
[19:43:18] <BrentBXR> so we are talking .0002" larger then a 1/4w resistor lead
[19:44:05] <BrentBXR> i can live with that; i just bought 4x 25' of it
[19:44:24] <BrentBXR> 5x 20cc RTM-223 soldier flux
[19:44:37] <Tom_itx> i use some .015" as well
[19:44:50] <BrentBXR> thats great for SMD
[19:45:05] <Tom_itx> find a solder pen
[19:45:10] <Tom_itx> flux pen
[19:45:14] <BrentBXR> although; any soldier size works for SMD or PTH. anyone who says different is wrong
[19:45:24] <Tom_itx> just easier
[19:45:26] <BrentBXR> i own a hakko soldier pen and custom driver
[19:45:33] <BrentBXR> i dont like the pens
[19:45:50] <BrentBXR> atleast
[19:45:56] <BrentBXR> i had a bad experience i sould say
[19:45:59] <BrentBXR> could be the brand etc
[19:46:04] <Tom_itx> kester
[19:46:15] <BrentBXR> but sence then I have stuck with syringe's of flux
[19:46:16] <Tom_itx> only i don't think you can buy it anymore
[19:46:28] <BrentBXR> i own kester in the bottle
[19:46:32] <BrentBXR> drys to quick
[19:46:45] <BrentBXR> by the time the iron touches the pin its all gone
[19:46:53] <BrentBXR> perhaps for oven
[19:47:03] <BrentBXR> which i think what kester is for
[19:47:19] <BrentBXR> could be wrong
[19:47:34] <Tom_itx> i use some cheap stuff from DX for the oven
[19:47:36] <Tom_itx> paste
[19:47:46] <BrentBXR> http://www.ebay.com/itm/140506246545?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
[19:48:05] <BrentBXR> thats the kester i own; u buy 2 and get one free; now i use it for a custom flux cleaner :3
[19:48:24] <BrentBXR> because the 223 works great! for me; so I refuse to move on from it :3
[19:48:33] <BrentBXR> thats why i just bought 5x it; ill never run out lol
[19:48:40] <BrentBXR> i have had the same 22cc for like a year now
[19:48:49] <BrentBXR> and still like only 1/5 gone
[19:48:52] <Tom_itx> inflex makes his own from rosin
[19:49:23] <BrentBXR> yeah I have a friend who swears by that
[19:49:30] <BrentBXR> like the rosin from violens
[19:49:33] <BrentBXR> or whatever
[19:49:38] <Tom_itx> yup
[19:49:54] <BrentBXR> I own radioshack rosin flux
[19:49:57] <Tom_itx> same stuff as rosin core
[19:50:03] <BrentBXR> its ok but it makes the PCB super super dirty
[19:50:07] <BrentBXR> and hard to clean imo
[19:50:32] <BrentBXR> but heres a tip i learned from my own experence; that kester i posted above
[19:50:35] <Tom_itx> i think the 951 comes in a pen too
[19:50:52] <BrentBXR> u mix that with lI alcohol and makes GREAT cleaner
[19:51:23] <BrentBXR> :3
[19:51:38] <BrentBXR> you ever had PCBS made via SEEED or itead? (or other)?
[19:51:49] <Tom_itx> seeed
[19:51:51] <Tom_itx> and other
[19:52:01] <BrentBXR> just wondering; i want to order some PCBs soon and wondering which is best
[19:52:04] <BrentBXR> ok so its the same as itead then
[19:52:10] <Tom_itx> how many?
[19:52:14] <BrentBXR> which is the only place i used
[19:52:19] <BrentBXR> prototype scale
[19:52:21] <BrentBXR> 10-20
[19:52:28] <Tom_itx> GP has the best price on small quantity
[19:52:37] <BrentBXR> GP?
[19:52:44] <Tom_itx> laen in dorkbotpdx offers $5 sq in
[19:52:47] <Tom_itx> and you get 3 back
[19:52:57] <Tom_itx> no restrictions to speak of
[19:53:04] <Tom_itx> except the mask is purple
[19:53:25] <BrentBXR> Oh
[19:53:32] <BrentBXR> its one of those batch orders
[19:53:41] <BrentBXR> hm i should try that
[19:53:44] <Tom_itx> so is seed and itead
[19:53:47] <Tom_itx> http://www.goldphoenixpcb.com/singlepage.php?tg=specialprice
[19:54:12] <Tom_itx> and batchpcb
[19:54:19] <Tom_itx> batch uses GP
[19:54:58] <BrentBXR> lol I knew SEEED and Itead used the same factory but I didnt know they performed batch runs
[19:55:21] <BrentBXR> how do thye get it done so quick then? just so manu orders or somthing
[19:55:34] <BrentBXR> or just lucky :3
[19:55:41] <Tom_itx> lucky i suppose
[19:56:57] <inflex> lo folks
[19:57:02] <BrentBXR> So you got any cool projects goin on ?
[19:57:06] <BrentBXR> hey flex
[19:57:14] <Tom_itx> not at the moment
[19:57:32] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/
[19:57:41] <BrentBXR> the hardest part about electronics is deciding what to do next
[19:58:31] <BrentBXR> Dean Camera :3
[19:58:40] <BrentBXR> or somthin :3
[19:58:58] <Tom_itx> you familiar with is stuff?
[19:59:29] <BrentBXR> oh yeah
[20:00:02] * inflex tries to work his way out of a less than desirable financial hiccup
[20:00:05] <Tom_itx> my programmer was the 'official' lufa programmer
[20:00:16] <BrentBXR> usbtiny
[20:00:24] <Tom_itx> mkii
[20:00:32] <BrentBXR> oh
[20:01:02] <BrentBXR> inflex what do u mean
[20:01:09] <BrentBXR> explain and share with the class
[20:01:31] <Tom_itx> china is his competetor
[20:01:38] <Tom_itx> they are winning
[20:02:25] <inflex> well, I need to get more orders... that's the first
[20:02:47] <BrentBXR> what are u selling?
[20:02:52] <BrentBXR> china makes everything
[20:03:03] <BrentBXR> im not familure with your stuffs
[20:03:10] <BrentBXR> i dont normally idle here :3 im new
[20:03:24] <BrentBXR> i idle elseware on the network and stumbled onto it today
[20:03:32] <Tom_itx> where?
[20:03:56] <BrentBXR> you familure with the bus pirate
[20:03:59] <Tom_itx> god forbid you say ##electronics
[20:04:05] <BrentBXR> or bus blaster
[20:04:07] <BrentBXR> no
[20:04:07] <Tom_itx> yeah
[20:04:14] <BrentBXR> dangerousprototypes
[20:04:26] <Tom_itx> i know the site
[20:04:37] <BrentBXR> there channels here too
[20:04:41] <BrentBXR> #dangerousprototypes
[20:05:11] * inflex makes almost all the stuff on http://nqrc.com
[20:05:36] <BrentBXR> you have a site or somthing
[20:05:49] <BrentBXR> perhaps we can plug it; if theres somthing interesting on it
[20:05:57] <Tom_itx> that's one of his
[20:06:13] <BrentBXR> oh i read it wrong
[20:06:24] <BrentBXR> i thought he said /me makes almost the same stuff as
[20:06:25] <BrentBXR> :D
[20:06:28] <BrentBXR> my bad
[20:07:21] <BrentBXR> whatelse u make
[20:07:31] <BrentBXR> lol whatelse u got
[20:07:38] <inflex> that's about it... but I probably should just get back to softrware and ditch electronics entirely
[20:08:07] <BrentBXR> ill be honest
[20:08:18] <BrentBXR> thats a bad site; i dont understand the navigation at all :/
[20:08:31] <inflex> You're the first person to have complained in .... 6 years.
[20:08:40] <inflex> so, I'll be honest, I won't takeyour advice.
[20:08:46] <Tom_itx> heh
[20:08:47] <BrentBXR> :3
[20:08:54] <BrentBXR> lool
[20:09:08] <BrentBXR> fare enough
[20:09:17] <BrentBXR> good luck; dont quit your day job
[20:09:20] <Tom_itx> his audience does
[20:09:38] <inflex> it's probably because you're not my usual customer - the site "layout" is fairly standard
[20:09:48] <inflex> as per many other sites - try http://hobbyking.com
[20:09:51] <BrentBXR> prolly :3
[20:10:14] <BrentBXR> ok so its like an RC oriented type deal
[20:10:25] <BrentBXR> yeah im not in the scene myself
[20:10:34] <BrentBXR> neat though wouldnt mind trying it :3
[20:10:45] <BrentBXR> but im sure it takes quite the investment to step into
[20:11:15] <inflex> I wouldn't bother to be honest... I mean, you can end up a millionaire very quickly in R/C
[20:11:21] <inflex> ... but you have to start with at least 2 million.
[20:11:37] <BrentBXR> i meant just as a hobbiest not the biz side
[20:12:18] <inflex> ah okay
[20:12:20] <BrentBXR> unless u got a cheap startup deal :D
[20:12:26] <BrentBXR> i would really love a heli
[20:12:27] <BrentBXR> :D
[20:12:50] <inflex> anyhow, the problem isn't the site as such... it's the impossibility of competing against places like HobbyKing - they sell goods for less than I can buy the parts direct from China for, it's just the nature of the game
[20:13:09] <BrentBXR> :(
[20:13:32] <BrentBXR> i hear yea
[20:13:33] <inflex> eg, they have 5A buck regulators for $4..... good luck even getting the controller+PCB for that price
[20:22:04] <brentbxr^> died
[20:38:33] <BrentBXR> damn
[20:38:43] <BrentBXR> why u hating on ##electronics
[20:38:57] <Casper> who?
[20:39:15] <BrentBXR> I have been in there no longer then 20 minutes; already got a deal to purchase a pre-assembled FPGA crash board for cost of parts and PCB
[20:39:26] <BrentBXR> i dont remember who
[20:39:35] <BrentBXR> i assumed he would same thing
[20:39:50] <BrentBXR> tom_itx
[20:39:58] <BrentBXR> perhaps it was a joke
[20:40:02] <BrentBXR> i dont know
[20:40:55] <Tom_itx> you haven't spent enough time there
[20:41:03] <BrentBXR> lol
[20:41:06] <BrentBXR> i did notice
[20:41:08] <Tom_itx> i left
[20:41:13] <Tom_itx> maybe it's better now
[20:41:21] <BrentBXR> 90% of the talk = nothing but 'help me plz im confused'
[20:41:31] <BrentBXR> but there was atleast 1-4 smart ppl talking
[20:42:01] <Tom_itx> i'm not smart, i just remember my mistakes
[20:42:04] <BrentBXR> awsering everything without a slip
[20:42:35] <Tom_itx> yeah there's a couple in there that like to do that
[20:47:16] <inflex> ##electronics is a bit of a cesspit
[20:47:50] <Tom_itx> lack of moderation is it's biggest problem probably
[20:48:22] <BrentBXR_> sorry i crashed
[20:48:29] <BrentBXR_> i was on that lame webchat
[20:48:32] <BrentBXR_> did i miss anything
[20:48:36] <BrentBXR_> im on a client now
[20:48:39] <Tom_itx> loads
[20:49:32] <BrentBXR_> k well it prolly sucked anyways
[20:49:35] <BrentBXR_> so im ok with that
[20:49:47] <Tom_itx> <inflex> ##electronics is a bit of a cesspit
[21:02:09] <rue_house> yea, maybe I wont go back soon
[21:02:14] <rue_house> is flyback still there
[21:02:42] <Tom_itx> he's like your best bud isn't he?
[21:03:04] <rue_house> he went to the troubel to send me a link a few days ago
[21:03:15] <rue_house> he shouldn't bother, I'm not gonna click them
[21:03:19] <Tom_itx> yeah i get pm from him
[21:03:38] <Tom_itx> ignore most of em
[21:06:09] <rue_house> entertainment and choars
[21:06:20] <rue_house> tasks for robots
[21:07:41] <rue_house> I know tom, make a bluetooth controlled blind rov
[21:07:57] <rue_house> find/hack a smartphone to do it :)
[21:08:29] <rue_house> hows your cnc?
[21:08:33] <Tom_itx> that was one of dean's class projects
[21:08:56] <Tom_itx> i need to find a decent enclosure for the boards
[21:09:41] <rue_house> http://eds.dyndns.org/~ircjunk/projects/heatplant/p1030705.jpg
[21:09:46] <rue_house> oops, how did I post that...
[21:10:09] <Tom_itx> you're so proud
[21:10:27] <Tom_itx> you just had to
[21:11:03] <rue_house> was it hylands book he used tupperware?
[21:11:13] <Tom_itx> book?
[21:11:20] <Tom_itx> which one has a book?
[21:11:37] <rue_house> did dave hylands do one?
[21:11:49] <Tom_itx> not that i'm aware of