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[00:00:48] <CapnKernel> ishmal: Try this: cpp -dM /dev/null
[00:01:05] <CapnKernel> Or avr-cpp even
[00:02:40] <ishmal> CapnKernel. yep. that's it just "AVR" thanks
[00:02:59] <ishmal> also __AVR
[03:41:49] <karlp> CapnKernel: that cpp -dM /dev/null is a neat trick! thanks!
[03:49:17] <CapnKernel> karlp: You're welcome.
[03:49:40] <CapnKernel> It's documented in the cpp info page, but using an empty file, not /dev/null
[03:52:59] <h4x0r`> ROFL
[04:13:34] <karlp> my system doesn't sem to have a cpp man page, and I admit, I don't normally think to try info
[04:13:54] <karlp> nope, no info either.
[04:14:44] <karlp> what doc packge is that likely to be in for debian?
[04:16:55] <karlp> never mind, I'll just read it online :)
[13:45:01] * RikusW had a look at some uveprom ic dies under a 100x microscope today :)
[13:47:53] <RikusW> the 64kbit seems to be arranged in a long row with 64 1kbit segments each being 64x16 bits
[13:57:10] <vectory> for 16 bit memory cells?
[13:57:21] <RikusW> 8 bit
[13:57:52] <RikusW> the 512 kbit was 2 blocks containing 32 rows each
[13:59:03] <vectory> k as in 2^10?
[14:00:12] <RikusW> 1024 yes
[14:00:45] <RikusW> with 64 things visible at the top and bottom of the blocks
[14:01:42] <RikusW> unfortunately the 40x lens needs to be 0.5mm or closer to whatever you look at, otherwise I would have had a look at 400x....
[14:02:32] <RikusW> I have 4x 10x and 40x with 10x and 16x eyepieces
[14:02:58] <RikusW> the actual ST logo is visible on the die
[14:03:13] <vectory> lol
[14:03:57] <RikusW> and there is a ruler on top of the amd one
[14:04:10] <vectory> handy
[14:04:15] <vectory> how big is the scale
[14:04:27] <RikusW> I gues in units of 100 u inches
[14:04:55] <RikusW> about 2.5mm long
[14:05:28] <RikusW> the bigger power tracks appear grainy
[14:05:50] <RikusW> and I can just see the individual bits
[14:06:10] <RikusW> as little dots in a square grid
[14:06:55] <RikusW> you might be able to get a uveprom in some scrapped electronic stuff
[14:07:13] <vectory> maybe in school in some bin :)
[14:07:56] <RikusW> you need strong light from top, the normal microscope light is useless
[14:08:47] <RikusW> because is comes from below...
[14:48:10] <digi001_> I need some help setting up interrupts for a real-time system
[14:48:17] <digi001_> anyone there?
[15:01:58] <DrLuke> Hello, what's the cheapest AVR with usb capability?
[15:02:07] <DrLuke> that is for a single piece
[15:05:30] <feurig> the one on the uno
[15:07:46] <DrLuke> the ATmega8U2 ?
[15:08:08] <feurig> http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/ATMEGA8U2-AU/ATMEGA8U2-AU-ND/2238246
[15:08:11] <feurig> yep
[15:08:21] <DrLuke> ah, thanks a lot :)
[15:29:05] <learningc> what sort of voltage is on the usb data lines?
[15:30:14] <Casper> 3.3V
[15:30:18] <Casper> differential
[15:32:43] <learningc> does that mean that when D+ is at 3.3V, D- is at -3.3V?
[15:37:03] <digi001> No
[15:37:25] <digi001> think about it....if they were always 3.3v or -3.3v there would be no data
[15:37:29] <digi001> being transmitted
[15:37:51] <digi001> they are always either 3.3V or -3.3V
[15:37:55] <digi001> differential signal
[16:03:47] <learningc> I don't get it
[16:04:12] <learningc> when D+ is +3.3V, what D- is at?
[16:12:21] <karlp> they are both _around_ 3.3v,
[16:12:34] <karlp> with the difference between D+ and D- being determined by whether you want a 0 or a 1
[16:12:47] <karlp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_signaling
[16:13:27] <Casper> 3./ or 0/3.3
[16:13:53] <Casper> 3.3/0 0/3.3
[17:46:51] <learningc> sorry, can someone paste me the last message intended for me?
[17:48:51] <karlp> no-one's spoken for 90min or so
[17:53:24] <learningc> thanks
[17:54:40] <learningc> I was asking if the usb data lines will have +3.3V on D+ and 0V on D-, or 3.3V on D+ and -3.3V on D-
[17:55:26] <learningc> then casper told me there is no -3.3V?
[17:56:01] <vectory> p much he last thing was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_signaling
[17:56:14] <learningc> but by differential, I understand that the lines should be of opposite polarity?
[18:01:17] <vectory> i read that artivle and still dont get it, i dont understand a word
[18:01:56] <vectory> ima go now
[18:15:52] <Casper> learningc: differential really mean that if one line goes high, the other goes low
[18:15:54] <TwisteR-> learningc: they are of opposite polarity relative to virtual ground, not device's ground
[18:15:58] <Casper> but still 0/3.3
[18:17:07] <TwisteR-> those virtual ground's potential relative to device ground is Vcc/2
[18:24:04] <vectory> http://www.damnlol.com/i/83ca76335c3d944e99cd95e147612edc.jpg me reading about differential signaling
[18:25:58] <learningc> so the logic level would be like 3.3/2 = 1.65V?
[18:28:11] <TwisteR-> only relative to virtual ground, which is physically absent among USB wires
[18:28:44] <TwisteR-> actual logic levels would be 0 and 3.3 volts
[18:31:55] <TwisteR-> "[01:46:21] <learningc> I was asking if the usb data lines will have +3.3V on D+ and 0V on D-, or 3.3V on D+ and -3.3V on D-"
[18:32:06] <TwisteR-> first case — mark (for example)
[18:32:25] <TwisteR-> then second case would be space
[18:32:39] <learningc> ok
[18:32:39] <TwisteR-> oops, wrong
[18:32:49] <TwisteR-> no -3.3 voltage
[18:33:15] <TwisteR-> +3.3 on D+ and 0 on D- — mark (for example)
[18:33:30] <TwisteR-> then 0 on D+ and 3.3 on D- — space
[18:34:39] <learningc> mark = logic 1 and space = logic 0 ?
[18:35:33] <TwisteR-> D+ and D- exchange their potentials on logic level change — this is the main difference between differential and single-ended buses, where one wire is *always* ground and other can switch between Vcc and ground
[18:37:36] <TwisteR-> learningc: "mark" and "space" are helper words I used to distinguish between the two bus states; they probably aren't used in the USB terminology
[18:44:05] <TwisteR-> the difference between D+ and D- would be +3.3V in one case (when D+ is +3.3V and D- is 0V) and -3.3V in another (when D+ is 0V and D- is +3.3V)
[18:44:34] <TwisteR-> that is why "differential signaling" ;-)
[18:47:15] <Casper> and the reason why they use differential signaling is that it's more immune to noise
[18:47:26] <Casper> and easier to detect an error too
[18:47:45] <Casper> ex: if one wire is high and the other is also high, this can't happend
[18:47:50] <Casper> so it have to be an error
[18:49:49] <TwisteR-> and if the noise occurs, it just shifts the potentials of both of the lines, but their difference remains the same
[18:50:40] <vectory> but but, how can there be two lines for one signal?
[18:50:55] <vectory> i know there are 5 contacts for 5 lines in a usb jack
[18:51:09] <vectory> so, whats that 2 wir talk about?
[18:51:28] <vectory> wire*
[18:51:43] <TwisteR-> power pins: + and -, data pins D+ and D- and shield
[18:51:52] <vectory> oh
[18:51:53] <vectory> k
[18:52:05] <TwisteR-> data transfer is half-duplex
[18:52:37] <vectory> whatever that means :)
[18:53:13] <vectory> i get a 5 v power supply over usb, thats all i want atm
[18:53:42] <TwisteR-> phone is full-duplex (you can hear your opponent at the same time you are talking)
[18:54:13] <TwisteR-> walkie-talkie is half-duplex (only one of the opponents can speak at a given time)
[18:54:26] <vectory> eh,m then whats not duplex?
[18:54:51] <vectory> nvm
[18:55:19] <vectory> although, with my phone it seems to be like i cant hear when i talk
[18:55:25] <TwisteR-> only one of the opponents can speak, other is always listening
[18:55:45] <vectory> at least me talking influences the envelope or the loudnes of the speaker
[18:56:42] <vectory> i said nvm :P
[18:57:07] <vectory> figured it out
[19:06:04] <learningc> so differential signaling has to work with 3 wires, right?
[22:17:42] <swag777> freaks
[22:18:02] <swag777> any ladies here smoke?
[22:21:28] <DanFrederiksen> a lady doesn't smoke
[22:21:43] <spybert> at least, not the smart ones
[23:03:48] <inflex> hrmmm
[23:03:53] <inflex> got myself a small pickle here
[23:04:02] <Tom_itx> mine's medium size
[23:04:44] <Tom_itx> changing washer bearings atm
[23:04:54] <inflex> on my 5A linear regulator board, I'm using a 21x21mm pin-head heatsink which is fine for most situations .... but I'm wondering if I should look at getting an 'extended' heatsink for heavier duty applications, the "pickle" problem is that there are PT pins that come through around the area... so I'd need to make a heatsink with recessed areas
[23:04:54] <Tom_itx> at least the bearings i got are the right ones
[23:05:29] <Tom_itx> time to get a cnc
[23:05:56] <Tom_itx> ok i gotta go get back to this
[23:06:16] <inflex> ok
[23:06:19] <inflex> Tom_itx: I agree
[23:06:27] <inflex> Tom_itx: too bad I can't even afford $100 to pay a bill
[23:09:07] <inflex> I am eyeing off the $1000 CNC package from a place, but i doubt it'd be much good for dealing with trying to mill away a heatsink (would probably have to mill back about 1mm / 0.040)
[23:10:22] <rue_house> you can build a whole cnc for $40
[23:10:24] <inflex> hrmm... okay, maybe I can fit a 32 x 21mm on there, that might be enough... but I doubt there's anything out there that fits that size
[23:10:37] <inflex> rue_house: do it for me, and I'll pay you $400 for the toruble.
[23:10:39] <inflex> :)
[23:10:57] <rue_house> no, my invoice system is fixed at $1M
[23:11:15] <rue_house> $360 profit isn't worth it for me
[23:11:18] <inflex> http://www.zentoolworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=14&products_id=120 <=- that's what I was looking at
[23:11:28] <inflex> though I might get cheaper because I don't need their stupid software
[23:11:43] <inflex> (that's $175 less)
[23:11:52] <rue_house> pff less than $40 for that dinkey thing
[23:12:07] <Tom_itx> looks pretty light weight
[23:12:13] <rue_house> dinkey and slow
[23:12:29] <inflex> Tom_itx: the main purpose is to do assembly jigs and small balsa parts
[23:12:38] <rue_house> oh, opps, thank god zhanx isn't here
[23:12:45] <inflex> Tom_itx: assembly jigs for 2-sided reflow is something I'm really needing
[23:13:10] <inflex> Tom_itx: spend too much time futzing around trying to align the boards for stencilling on the second side
[23:17:02] <inflex> rue_house: the thing is, $1k is cheap when everything is there together in one package for you and you know it's going to assemble and work.
[23:17:20] <inflex> rue_house: it's all relative. Sure, if I had all the other bits for a home-made CNC around, no prob, but I don't.
[23:18:04] <rue_house> you just need 2 office copiers
[23:18:13] <rue_house> offices get rid of them all the time
[23:18:52] <rue_house> or old impact printers
[23:19:01] <rue_house> 2 of them would give ya most of the parts
[23:19:29] <inflex> still have to sort out all the rails/sliders
[23:19:35] <inflex> then the electronics to drive the motors
[23:19:45] <rue_house> all rather trivial
[23:20:14] <inflex> maybe if you're geared up with that stuff
[23:20:19] <rue_house> wonder if I should get my roommate making and selling machines
[23:20:24] <inflex> a bit like me saying that SMD reflow is trivial
[23:20:34] <inflex> (but then, a skillet makes a quick reflow machine :D )
[23:20:37] <rue_house> I'v got a toaster oven
[23:20:57] <inflex> but you know, reflow is easy for me because I've got a stencil cutter, reflow oven, p&p vacuum pencil etc
[23:21:04] <inflex> but damn it was a PITA to get there
