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[01:13:48] <jacekowski> Casper: not if you have fire extinguisher nearby
[03:25:44] <karlp> aarobc: if you were using UBBR3H, you have code for a different chip.
[03:25:53] <karlp> atmega328 doesn't have 3 uarts
[04:02:58] <karlp> what's the difference between the .x, .xbn, .xr, .xn and .xu link scripts from avr-libc? and how does it know which one to use if you don't specify any section addressing or link scripts yourself?
[04:07:25] <karlp> ok, .x is the normal one :)
[04:09:03] <karlp> and, after reading the scripts, I found:
http://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/FAQ.html#faq_linkerscripts
[04:09:10] * karlp is silly
[04:28:49] <ziph> karlp: Yeah, you're a real noob. Not knowing which ld script to edit. *g*
[04:30:20] <karlp> well, I only barely understand them, I'm trying to use the avr-libc link scripts to make working ones for stm32
[04:42:00] <sh00p> if I configure a pin as an input, what corresponds to 5V, one or zero?
[04:44:34] <karlp> sh00p: 1
[04:45:49] <sh00p> thanks karlp
[04:49:17] <sh00p> and if i configure it as an output. then if I write a one, that corresponds to 0V ?
[04:49:23] <sh00p> have I got that right?
[04:50:21] <theBear> in just about every chip you'll ever see, 1 = 5v, 0=0v, roughly
[04:50:29] <theBear> input and output the same
[04:50:57] <theBear> so set a pin to output and write a 1, you see 5v
[04:51:04] <theBear> set a pin to input and give it 5v, you see a 1
[04:51:08] <theBear> simple
[04:51:10] <sh00p> thats weird, cause I write a one to my leds and then they turn dark
[04:51:14] <sh00p> but I remember now
[04:51:17] <sh00p> they're fed from the outside
[04:51:21] <theBear> are your leds connected to gnd or 5v ?
[04:51:29] <sh00p> they're fed from 5V on the outside
[04:51:31] <sh00p> so it makes sense
[04:51:34] <theBear> no it doesn't
[04:51:43] <theBear> oh wait, yes it does
[04:51:43] <sh00p> yeah it does
[04:51:45] <theBear> sorry
[04:51:47] <sh00p> :)
[04:51:55] <sh00p> I'll never forgive you
[04:52:06] <theBear> yeah, it's all about difference, from the led p.o.v. 5v on both pins is 0v
[04:52:14] <sh00p> yeah
[04:52:23] <theBear> you're not jesus, i don't expect you to forgive, OR bleed from your hands
[04:53:22] <sh00p> ...maybe I am?
[04:53:44] <sh00p> but then I'd forgive you... argh the paradox
[04:53:46] <theBear> then you woulda forgave me by now :)
[04:53:50] <theBear> see, i know the score
[04:55:37] <Tom_itx> theBear, 5v?
[04:55:52] <Tom_itx> you haven't played with modern µC's
[04:56:00] <Tom_itx> 1.8v is high now dude
[04:56:01] <Tom_itx> :)
[04:56:21] <theBear> Tom_itx, heh, good point, i was more trying to say you won't see inverted logic :)
[04:56:35] <theBear> and yeah, 1.8v is useless to me :)
[04:56:48] <Tom_itx> more a joke as to where we've come
[04:58:35] <karlp> 5V is burning with fire!
[05:14:48] <inflex> right, another PCB in
[05:14:51] * inflex dings the bell
[06:24:41] <spow> Hello. If PORTD is half input and half output, can I still do "OUT PORTD, tmp" or is there a single bit operator to use ?
[06:25:14] <spow> soöething like OUT PORTD.b1, value
[06:27:24] <theBear> oooh good question, it's been a while... you CAN do single bit stuff, but inputs shouldn't do anything if you write to them, so it should be fine to write a whole byte
[06:27:54] <spow> mmmh then I have a couple of öistakes in mz code :P
[06:27:59] <spow> ty
[06:28:55] <theBear> i'd test what i just said first, it's been a LONG time
[06:29:29] <spow> well it does 'work' if I do so, but there are interferences
[06:30:01] <spow> some LEDs are blinking due to parasitic currents
[06:30:23] <spow> maybe I understood the pull up/down thing wrong though
[06:31:15] <theBear> parasitic currents ? don't get ahead of yourself with words like that
[06:31:46] <spow> ?
[06:32:19] <spow> the LEDs are blinking for no reason, this means there is a parasitic current flowing between its legs
[06:32:50] <spow> and if I touch their legs it changes even more dramatically
[06:34:54] <theBear> thats flickering, blinking is a lack of light
[06:35:24] <Tom_itx> smoke some weed and enjoy the effect
[06:36:06] <sh00p> hey guys, I can't get this to work
[06:36:14] <sh00p> http://www.fpaste.org/taTc/
[06:36:22] <sh00p> Its a input pin interrupt that starts a timer
[06:36:32] <sh00p> and the timer should trigger a compare match interrupt
[06:36:41] <sh00p> but for some reason the timer interrupt doesnt get triggered
[06:36:54] <sh00p> I know I enter the pin interrupt
[06:37:31] <sh00p> Its a ATmega32
[06:37:35] <sh00p> with 16 MHz crystal
[06:40:36] <grummund> TIMSK |= (OCIE1A);
[06:40:38] <grummund> TIMSK &= ~(OCIE1A);
[06:41:53] <grummund> try (1 << OCIE1A)
[06:41:59] <sh00p> lol
[06:42:08] <sh00p> thanks grummund
[06:42:13] <sh00p> I would never have spotted that
[06:42:54] <sh00p> It works :D
[06:54:12] <hetii> Hello :)
[06:54:45] <hetii> Did someof you know if exist somewhere some project to implement c64 computer on atmega chip ?
[06:57:26] <hetii> or also maybe some of you remmeber the cardlige v8 to this 8bit computer? there was voice synthezator, and i wondering if it will be possible implement such think on some avr ?
[06:58:12] <hetii> eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-nKCj1pn5I
[06:58:21] <theBear> err, you gotta spell better, that made no sense whatsoever
[06:58:50] <theBear> also i'm pretty sure an avr doesn't quite have the power to emulate a c64 natively, at least not at any kind of reasonable speed
[07:01:05] <Tom_itx> theBear, not native english apparently
[07:01:32] <theBear> obviously, i don't need perfect english, just, that made no sense
[07:01:56] <Tom_itx> i'm just waking up so i just chocked it up to that
[07:03:00] <Tom_itx> zolin comes to mind
[07:03:07] <Tom_itx> maybe i'm way off on the name
[07:03:19] <hetii> yep, its not excuses for me so In future, I will try better.
[07:03:44] <Tom_itx> naw skip that one
[07:03:47] <Tom_itx> hmm
[07:03:53] <Tom_itx> i had a voice board here somewhere
[07:05:26] * grummund would have thought atmega >= C64 in processing power
[07:09:23] <hetii> i saw somwhere implementation for some fpga chip, so just wondering if atmega128 could handle that as well
[07:10:18] <grummund> it would have trouble with "emulation", but it's not clear if that's what you want... or just voice synth on an avr?
[07:12:26] <hetii> not just voice, but for eg. full game like here :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo33eNhapkE
[07:13:54] <spow> theBear: sorry, not native
[07:19:40] <sh00p> I have a capacitator, it says u1k63
[07:19:46] <sh00p> how can i interpret that?
[07:22:34] <Tom_itx> http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Capacitor_Codes
[07:24:57] <sh00p> I dont see this sort of code there
[07:29:38] <theBear> sh00p, 63v, err, k temp, .1uf at a guess, what kinda cap is it ?
[07:39:25] <hetii> i found such fuses calc:
http://www.engbedded.com/cgi-bin/fcx.cgi?P_PREV=ATmega128&P=ATmega128&M_LOW_0x3F=0x0E&M_LOW_0x80=0x80&M_HIGH_0x06=0x00&M_HIGH_0x20=0x00&M_HIGH_0x40=0x00&B_JTAGEN=P&B_SUT1=P&B_SPIEN=P&B_SUT0=P&B_BOOTSZ1=P&B_BOOTSZ0=P&B_M103C=P&B_CKSEL0=P&V_LOW=CE&V_HIGH=99&V_EXTENDED=FD
[07:40:36] <hetii> could someone explain me the value for external cristal? what means the High frequency ?
[07:41:28] <theBear> hetii, it's all explained in the clock section of the datasheet in detail with tables, check it out
[07:41:53] <hetii> hmm ok
[07:47:53] <Valen> ey inflex and other assorted ausies, check
https://www.zazz.com.au/index-rss.php decent laptop decent price it seems
[07:49:43] <theBear> a lenovo ? i dunno... i like this little $300 eee
[07:50:05] <theBear> hmm.. interesting site tho
[07:50:26] <Valen> eee's are good n all, i have a 701
[07:50:39] <Valen> but they don't generally have I5's and 1Gb video cards
[07:51:07] <theBear> this has err, some kinda atom 1.6 dual 64bit with 2gb ram and i dunno, a decent graphics
[07:53:26] <theBear> hmm... i915, only mention in pci-space, not actual mb's in xorg log
[08:01:34] <Valen> it'll be onboard intel gfx as a rule
[08:01:45] <Valen> i915 is an intel chipset with graphics
[08:02:45] <theBear> indeed, so i suppose that means shared ram, but it plays racing cars pretty good, does composite/x stuff flawlessly and fast... it's golden.... don't forget the 5-15 hours ACTUAL battery life
[08:03:36] <Valen> i'm not hating on it
[08:03:53] <Valen> horses for courses though
[08:07:14] <theBear> i'm not arguing, i just like saying how awesome this little sucker is whenever i get a chance, it's been well over 6 months and it still amazes me
[08:08:52] <Valen> i got my 701 just before the ones with the 10" screens were announced and the price dropped :-<
[08:09:13] <inflex> mwave had a nice special on a Shuttle mini PC today
[08:09:23] <inflex> $299 or something for the Atom D525 + Ion
[08:09:25] <Valen> not buying a shuttle again
[08:09:34] <Valen> i got 4 of them for a company
[08:09:41] <Valen> spread over 2 purchases
[08:09:47] <Valen> 50% RMA
[08:10:47] <inflex> ouch
[08:11:01] <Valen> 2 different models too
[08:12:24] <Valen> anyway past my bed time
[08:12:34] <Valen> for that price take a look at the hp micro servers
[08:12:57] <Valen> no ion (which is nice to be sure) but still "server grade"
[08:13:08] <inflex> I was thinking of a box as a workstation
[08:13:17] <inflex> sure, I'm using this AMD 7550 atm, but it's a hungry power beast
[08:23:22] <CapnKernel1> I think you can get a better laptop for less at MSY.
[08:24:29] <CapnKernel1> I bought a similar specced Acer from MSY at the start of the year, and another in June. Similar specs, similar price. i5 quad core and intel graphics. They run Linux flawlessly.
[08:25:28] <karlp> what's MSY?
[08:26:13] <CapnKernel1> It's a no frills PC equipment seller in Australia.
[08:27:04] <CapnKernel1> The conversation above was about laptop specials in Australia.
[08:27:25] <karlp> yeah, Is aw that,
[08:27:37] <karlp> I just thought I still knew some of the cheaper pc retailers in oz
[08:27:50] <karlp> I grew up there and still have many family and friends there :)
[08:27:51] <CapnKernel1> http://www.msy.com.au/
[08:28:49] <theBear> i haven't seen a laptop that didn't run linux flawlessly for years now
[08:28:58] <theBear> like, MANY years
[08:29:09] <CapnKernel1> Oh I have.
[08:29:21] <theBear> can't be a big/established one.... i like umart for pc parts
[08:29:23] <CapnKernel1> I bought a Toshiba in 2006 that was a DOG with Linux.
[08:29:49] <grummund> maybe it would run Puppy Linux ?
[08:29:49] <CapnKernel1> For starters, Toshiba munged the ACPI sleep code, so that suspend would only work from Windows.
[08:30:11] <karlp> lots of laptops are still pretty shit on linux
[08:30:17] <CapnKernel1> I spent five years not having suspend. I became an old man waiting for hibernation.
[08:30:23] <karlp> theBear: still depends a lot on the wireless chipsets
[08:30:35] <karlp> and suspend is still hit and miss.
[08:30:57] <CapnKernel1> No idea why a company would turn off self-refresh of the DRAM, and only have a special Windows driver to re-enable it.
[08:31:08] <karlp> hell, my desktop doesn't even hibernate or suspend properly in linux
[08:31:16] <CapnKernel1> You could resume the machine if you suspended it for less than 2 seconds.
[08:31:37] <CapnKernel1> karlp: Not unusual, as ACPI in desktops doesn't get the testing workout that ACPI on laptops does.
[08:32:48] <theBear> karlp, with tuxonice you don't really need suspend, but i suppose that's a personal perference
[08:32:48] <theBear> i see a LOT of desktops with problem in linux, specially since about 2.6.35
[08:32:48] <theBear> almost ridiculously so since then
[08:32:49] <theBear> all apic/acpi problems
[08:33:15] <CapnKernel1> I learned that proprietary graphics chips are a royal pain in the butt: Hard to keep them up-to-date, and impossible to get support for anything kernelish from the open source community if you're using a proprietary graphics driver.
[08:33:18] <karlp> fortunately, it boots quick enough these days that I just turn it on/off
[08:33:53] <CapnKernel1> I tend to have a lot of windows open, and several dozens of Firefox tabs. Turning on and off isn't an option.
[08:34:23] <karlp> chromium actually does a good job of reopening teh tabs from last session.
[08:34:37] <karlp> it still stays on from when I get home to when I go to bed :)
[08:34:43] <CapnKernel1> So does Firefox. I'd be dead without it. But it doesn't work for non-browser windows, of course.
[08:35:01] <CapnKernel1> I see the turning on/off thing as a workaround.
[08:35:05] <karlp> it is.
[08:35:12] <karlp> I'd rather suspend :)
[08:35:18] <CapnKernel1> Workarounds shouldn't be necessary.
[08:35:43] <CapnKernel1> There were several more bad things about that Toshiba laptop.
[08:36:37] <theBear> just for the record <grin> this machine suspends at 2 levels properly, and hibernates either natively or tuxonice style just fine :)
[08:43:06] <CapnKernel1> theBear: Isn't it nice when it works? That's why I'm so happy with these Acers.
[08:48:21] <theBear> :)
[08:53:35] * inflex gets back
[08:53:42] * inflex still loves his little Asus B202's
[08:54:02] <inflex> just a shame I can't quite get enough grunt out of them to do what I need now - but a dual-core one would
[08:54:32] <inflex> ooof, that reminds me, need to sell my Atom D510 1U server
[08:58:12] <rue_house> who is dude?
[08:58:54] <theBear> i'm kinda a dude
[09:10:37] <rue_house> tom wanted me to help dude
[13:06:38] <Guest35645> hi, i want to generate a external clock with a oscilloscope, i have set the clock to low frqu external, what do i have to do 5v - 1 mhz?
[13:13:55] <Casper> Guest35645: an oscilloscope do not generate any signal
[13:14:10] <Casper> they show the signal it receive
[13:15:21] <Guest35645> so there are some with a unit to generate one?
[13:18:33] <Steffanx> Most scopes can generate some sort of a reference signal.. of 1khz :)
[13:20:25] <Kevin`> Guest35645: you know could use an avr chip to generate one, right?
[13:20:49] <Guest35645> Kevin`, if i would have a second ;)
[13:21:37] <JanneP> have you bricked your avr by chance?
[13:21:40] <Guest35645> I can usw some oscilloscope like this
http://www.uni-trend.com/UTD2102CEL.html. is there a way to use the referenz as aclock?
[13:21:54] <Guest35645> JanneP, set to external clock source ;)
[13:22:11] <JanneP> okey, for that the oscilloscope probe calibration output should work
[13:22:53] <JanneP> it's referenced to the BNC connectors shell
[13:23:27] <Steffanx> The question is.. will it work with a 0-5V clock signal when you selected a crystal?
[13:23:36] <Steffanx> Low freq.
[13:23:50] <Steffanx> You don't have a ~32KHz crystal around Guest35645 ?
[13:24:02] <Guest35645> Steffanx, no :/
[13:24:13] <Kevin`> Steffanx: it will work when a crystal is selected
[13:24:23] <Guest35645> wait i can tell you whats selected
[13:24:36] <Steffanx> I can too if oyu are that same guy from yesterday
[13:25:12] <Guest35645> ext. low freq crystal, roght
[13:25:14] <Guest35645> right*
[13:25:22] <Guest35645> Steffanx, yes :D
[13:25:28] <Guest35645> still the same
[13:25:37] <Steffanx> /nick AnotherNick :)
[13:26:16] <Steffanx> That's better, as long as you use that all the time :)
[13:26:29] <theSameGuy> what do i have to set it up to, to get success
[13:26:44] <theSameGuy> then I stick with that now ;)
[13:28:32] <theSameGuy> so i have to set the reference signal to something like 0-5v and what frquenz?
[13:29:04] <Steffanx> ~32KHz
[13:29:19] <Steffanx> You don't have an old watch? :)
[13:29:28] <Steffanx> Or clock
[13:29:40] <Steffanx> One with an 32….KHz crystal
[13:29:48] <Steffanx> *a
[13:30:28] <theSameGuy> mh i dont think so, I still need all of them
[13:30:48] <karlp> what's a watch?
[13:31:00] <karlp> that's what old people call their phones right?
[13:31:01] <hetii> re :)
[13:31:10] <theSameGuy> karlp, hehe
[13:31:31] <Steffanx> I'm oldskool karlp
[13:31:44] <hetii> Q: how can i check and be sure that my atmega work with my cristal frequency
[13:31:45] <hetii> ?
[13:31:58] <karlp> I've worn a watch, don't worry Steffanx :)
[13:31:58] <Steffanx> Program it?
[13:32:23] <theSameGuy> hetii, we can swap atmegas ^^
[13:32:25] <Steffanx> You don't have a jtag adapter for AVR's ?
[13:32:47] <Steffanx> You can make one iwth a atmega16 if you really want one
[13:33:06] <Kevin`> hetii: the datasheet covers this
[13:33:10] <hetii> atmega128
[13:33:33] <Steffanx> Oh, i didn't notice someone else jumped in :)
[13:39:46] <hetii> please look at here:
http://pastebin.com/1Fj57RZy
[13:40:01] <hetii> there is the time how long it take to read my atmega and his fuses
[13:40:37] <hetii> can someone look and tell me if this time is ok
[13:40:37] <hetii> ?
[13:41:42] <theSameGuy> Is there a special name for this reference signals? i cant find it in the manual or web
[13:47:51] <theSameGuy> Steffanx, ok it turned out that a friend got another µ-controller
[13:48:17] <Casper> hetii: time depend mainly on the programmer and if you are using an usb-serial/parallel adapter
[13:50:20] <Casper> and write time depend on the program size
[13:53:03] <hetii> thats true but first of all i read (suppose clear uC) and also i don`t see much differance bettwen current settings and the factory one where uC use internal cristal
[13:53:21] <hetii> also i can run my avrprog as a HID device
[13:53:23] <theSameGuy> avrdude says: warning: cannot set sck period. please check for usbasp firmware update., I hope my usbAsp can go down to that programming speed i need for 32 khz
[13:53:49] <hetii> if you think it will be more faster then by ttyACM0 device
[13:58:49] <Kevin`> hetii: the clock speed of the chip has no relation to the speed of your isp interface. except that you can't run the isp interface faster than the chip
[14:03:44] <hetii> so on the end of the day it has.
[14:04:16] <hetii> because if i had 1Mhz internal clock then i can run sPI wih 1/4 of this frequency as i suppose
[14:04:20] <Kevin`> if you run the isp interface faster than the chip you can't communicate
[14:04:42] <Kevin`> it's not like it automatically runs slower without your intervention
[14:05:48] <Kevin`> hetii: if you need fast programming with the fuses set to a slow clock source, perhaps program the flash THEN the fuse bytes, or just use the high-voltage programming that always uses an external clock
[14:07:53] <hetii> ok need to think a while about that, meantime i will add some leds on my board to see if its able to do any useful work :)
[14:12:05] <_Shurik_> heya
[15:22:52] <vectory> ohai
[15:22:59] <RikusW> hi
[15:23:18] <RikusW> http://wikibon.org/blog/untangle-this-the-worlds-worst-cable-clutters/
[15:23:47] <DBV> Hi, someone now is ptossible to connect one phone wiht LIMO software to eduroam wireless?
[15:24:11] <JanneP> that reminds me of the time we were dismantling some old electrical cabinets on a plywood mill...
[15:24:25] <JanneP> there the "ratwire-cutters" really came on handy
[15:24:37] <JanneP> insulated cutters with a really wide opening :D
[16:01:04] <Steffanx> Should be possible DBV
[16:01:43] <Steffanx> At least I think it works pretty well here in NL
[16:01:55] <DBV> do you now?
[16:02:08] <DBV> but it limo ?
[16:02:30] <DBV> do:/
[16:10:44] <DBV> someone now?please...wireless eduroam with lmo software?
[16:11:23] <specing> wtf does that have to do with AVRs?!?!?!
[16:18:29] <Steffanx> Yeah specing
[16:19:21] <Steffanx> You don't think so?
[16:21:13] <specing> The road to success(tm): 1) Have a question 2) Join some random channel 3) ... 4) Profit!
[16:28:46] <Steffanx> He failed @ stage 3
[16:29:21] <Tom_itx> Prophet of doom
[16:30:15] <Steffanx> By Specing
[16:30:31] <Tom_itx> limited edition
[16:30:48] <Steffanx> :)
[16:31:01] <Tom_itx> http://www.digikey.com/us/en/ph/ST/STM32_value_line_discovery.html?WT.z_Tab_Cat=Featured%20Products
[16:31:15] <Steffanx> Yes?
[16:32:06] <Steffanx> mr Tom_itx ?
[16:32:17] <Tom_itx> Mr x
[16:33:21] <Steffanx> So no reason for that digikey link?
[16:33:27] <Tom_itx> no
[16:33:30] <Steffanx> ok
[16:33:40] <Tom_itx> want another?
[16:42:49] <Steffanx> Ofcourse
[16:42:54] <Steffanx> I already have this one
[17:08:43] <vectory> Tom_itx, Steffanx what does that have to with AVRs?
[17:08:50] <vectory> :P
[17:09:57] <vectory> on another note, do you have any idea how big MCs are in bare silicon?
[17:10:46] <vectory> telling from the size of the window on eproms, not very big and eproms are 30 years old
[17:30:58] <Steffanx> There are some pictures of the inners of several chips on the www
[17:31:03] <Steffanx> I just dont remember the website
[17:32:54] <vectory_> several, i suppose
[17:33:15] <vectory_> taken with a microscope
[17:33:34] <vectory_> can you make out any details?
[17:40:29] <Tom_itx> sparkfun
[17:42:03] <Steffanx> farnell
[17:45:55] <specing> nufkraps
[17:48:48] <Tom_itx> i thought they had a pic of a wafer
[17:51:19] <Tom_itx> abcminiuser_ has one
[17:51:40] <abcminiuser_> Yup I've got a AT90S8515 wafer on my wall
[17:51:48] <Tom_itx> where's that pic?
[17:53:04] <abcminiuser_> Which one?
[17:53:14] <Tom_itx> of your wafer
[17:53:33] <abcminiuser_> Hrm, no closeups but I've got one of me holding it with the Atmel dev team
[17:53:41] <Tom_itx> oh
[17:53:50] <abcminiuser_> Closeups are a pain to do
[17:54:01] <abcminiuser_> Although, IIRC our microscope at Uni has a webcam attached
[17:54:07] <abcminiuser_> I should see if I can get that working
[17:54:10] <Tom_itx> i should have gotten a trinocular
[17:56:40] <Kevin`> i've seen some nice annotated pictures of wafers, highlighting the different sections, where to cut to disable lock bits, etc
[17:56:43] <Kevin`> :)
[17:56:51] <Kevin`> I wonder if I kept the link to that
[17:57:53] <abcminiuser_> I'll try to get nice closeups of mine then
[17:58:04] <abcminiuser_> It's old enough that you can see the different sections with the naked eye
[17:58:09] <abcminiuser_> EEPROM, FLASH, etc
[17:58:43] <Tom_itx> on those old ibm hdd's the BIG ones, you could see the data bits with the naked eye
[19:15:08] <Valen> abcminiuser_: i was under the impression that even with the latest and greatest 32nm stiff from intel you can still see all the blocks
[19:15:55] <abcminiuser_> Valen, probably the case - the transistors may be tiny, but when you have three billion bajilion of them in a block structure, you can make out the details
[19:16:05] <abcminiuser_> As in "here's one core, here's another, there's the cache"
[19:18:53] <Valen> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/824/1/
[19:19:08] <Valen> looks like you should be able to see more than that
[19:29:11] <Valen> at least the garbage trucks have stopped coming around at 5:00AM
[19:30:39] <Tom_itx> on strike?
[19:30:54] <Valen> guessing they changed the route
[19:31:18] <Valen> if the garbos went on strike council offices would be burnt down in 24 hours
[19:31:29] * Valen lives in a great neighbourhood ;->
[19:31:59] <Tom_itx> just less politics to worry about :)
[19:41:59] <Valen> well they just came and did my "hard rubbish collection"
[19:42:04] <Valen> which is nice too
[20:20:15] <Valen> planning my book case
[20:20:34] <Valen> i'm thinking of putting 192 RGB LED's in it
[20:20:45] <Valen> suggestions on how to drive the whole thing?
[20:26:38] <Casper> independant? how much power?
[20:26:44] <Casper> pwm? or on/off?
[20:28:08] <rue_house> pwm on each channel??
[20:38:35] <Valen> the ideal result is full control
[20:38:47] <Casper> define full control
[20:39:07] <Valen> IE every individual led in the whole shebang over its full brightness range
[20:39:13] <Valen> think a TV ;->
[20:39:23] <Valen> or a rather large game of tetris lol
[20:39:36] <Casper> so 3x 192 PWM channels... yuck
[20:40:00] <Valen> 576 PWM's sounds like awesome fun++
[20:40:31] <Valen> but yeah thats how one would do it, the question is how do you *do* that ;->
[20:40:51] <Casper> probably with lots of PWM led drivers...
[20:40:59] <Valen> i presume theres a better way than 600odd AVRs ;->
[20:41:10] <Valen> although you would probably get a decent discount lol
[20:41:26] <Casper> I don't know the part number, but there is some nice chip that do the current limiting PLUS pwm, multi channel and digital selection
[20:41:41] <Valen> probably eleventy dollars a chip though
[20:42:12] <Valen> I spose one avr could do 16x LED's (4x rgb's) at a time with some kind of a buffer to drive it
[20:42:33] <Valen> what PWM freq do you think i could run with that?
[20:43:33] <Valen> i spose i should be able to hit 244hz without working too hard
[20:43:59] <Valen> 16000000/256 (timer overflow) / 256 levels of resolution
[20:44:41] <Valen> think 256 resolution is enough?
[20:45:12] <Valen> 512 bytes of "frame buffer" ;->
[20:45:44] <Valen> whats a cheap 16mhz+ avr with 16 IO's ;->
[20:46:37] <Big-Al> http://www.siti.com.tw/product/spec/LED/DM163.pdf
[20:46:52] <Big-Al> they sent me two of them
[20:47:19] <Big-Al> 24 pwm chans
[20:48:01] <Big-Al> but they get a bit unhappy when you make 2/3 of the chans with high pwm rates so the current gets high and they heat
[20:48:40] <Valen> high pwm speed or high duty cycle?
[20:48:56] <Big-Al> its the duty cycle
[20:49:10] <Valen> 60ma in total?
[20:49:13] <Big-Al> the power dissipation cause
[20:49:18] <Valen> or per pin?
[20:49:25] <Big-Al> its per pin
[20:49:43] <Valen> shouldn't be too bad, I'll probably be running ~30ma or so
[20:49:54] <Valen> or less
[20:50:12] <Valen> whats their RRP ;->
[20:50:21] <Big-Al> see it even clocks your data out also
[20:50:38] <Big-Al> but theres prob some limit to how many chips
[20:50:40] <Valen> digikey don't seem to have them
[20:50:45] <Big-Al> you want a pile of em
[20:50:58] <Big-Al> ya i asked them directly
[20:51:03] <Tom_itx> why do you need pwm?
[20:51:05] <Big-Al> and they sent me 2 free
[20:51:06] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/led_front.jpg
[20:51:07] <inflex> soon as I start making headway/attention amongst places, I get messages from people saying they have ideas that'll greatly improve my product and they want to go in to a join/co-op development and production
[20:51:15] <Tom_itx> just hook a pot to the base of some transistors
[20:51:15] <inflex> to hell with that, it's a freaking nightmare - if their ideas are good, they can make it themselves.
[20:51:24] <inflex> I also love how when they throw the pitch at you they forget to grease it with love, instead it's a stomp-down "make your product more acceptable" - nice nice nice
[20:51:30] <Valen> inflex: this is why the chinese win
[20:51:40] <Valen> what your sposed to do is bait it out of them
[20:51:42] <Valen> then steal it
[20:52:00] <inflex> Tom_itx: oooh, those the LED strip lights you used a couple of yrs ago
[20:52:07] <inflex> Valen: yeah, that's what I was feeling on the email btw
[20:52:22] <inflex> Valen: (from the person, even though they're another "US" seller)
[20:52:39] <inflex> esp when "CHINA" is written in all caps
[20:53:06] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/scope/led_harness_on.jpg
[20:54:12] <inflex> Valen: """I have been entertaining the idea for awhile and see you have jump started the process. I have a few different ideas for the meter to make it more appealing. I also have manufactures in CHINA that manufacture stuff to my specifications."""
[20:54:38] <inflex> Valen: which reads to me as "I think your product is neat - I want to use your hard work and give you very little back and claim coop ownership"
[20:54:54] <inflex> or "We have no freaking idea how to do what you did, but we want it"
[20:55:33] <Valen> its probably some chinese company trying to steal the whole thing
[20:55:39] <inflex> Sad thing is, a lot of people getting in to this game the first time around will likely fall for it
[20:55:52] <inflex> the ole ego boost + knockdown combo
[20:56:03] <inflex> "Great product, needs work - we can help"
[20:58:38] <Casper> specially when your products are so... basic?
[20:58:41] <Casper> I mean
[20:58:51] <Tom_itx> maybe you better start epoxying parts of your boards
[20:59:11] <Casper> it's not as if it was something that take a team a few years to make
[20:59:58] <Casper> it's sad that china is so full of theif :(
[21:00:11] <Valen> stick some big blocks of steel into it to make it heavy
[21:00:26] <Tom_itx> Casper, it's how you get ahead nowdays
[21:00:29] <Valen> thats how the chinese increase the wattage of their pc power supplies
[21:01:08] <Casper> Valen: the worse is that the wattage they write is real
[21:01:16] <Casper> it's just not the standard tests
[21:01:27] <Valen> pmpo = awesome!
[21:01:30] <Casper> you know, one of 'em actually said the test method...
[21:01:39] <Casper> 15C ambiant, 10 seconds
[21:05:14] <inflex> heh
[21:05:57] <inflex> Casper: yes, you're right, most of my products are quite basic - though a couple are a little tricky on the firmware deveopment ( mAh-counter was one, the LOM is another ), but overall most of my gear can be copied within a day
[21:06:35] <Casper> yeah
[21:06:36] <inflex> interestingly, the email is about the mAh-counter
[21:06:56] <Casper> I hope you don't forget to use the lock bits :D
[21:07:07] <inflex> I'll be honest, I don't see the point - they can still bypass it all
[21:07:24] <Casper> well, some security is better than none
[21:07:24] <inflex> though I might start doing it for things like the mAh-meter
[21:07:37] <Casper> beside, it's not like if it was hard to do
[21:07:51] <Casper> or added more time in production
[21:07:54] <inflex> agreed, though it makes it a bugger doesn't it for people who want to flash-upgrade their stuff?
[21:08:16] <Casper> do you plan of doing flash update?
[21:08:21] <inflex> es
[21:08:25] <inflex> yes, potentially
[21:08:31] <inflex> bugfix or such
[21:08:43] <Casper> then you should consider a bootloader with encrypted data
[21:08:46] <inflex> ifyou can still do it via the ISP, then sure, I'll consider it
[21:08:54] <inflex> oh, can't do that
[21:09:03] <Casper> and if locked, you can still unlock
[21:09:12] <Casper> but that cause a full chip erase
[21:09:19] <inflex> right, oh that's okay then
[21:09:36] <Casper> might want to confirm with the datasheet, but that is what I recall that it say
[21:10:10] <Casper> so if you don't release an update, then it will never be accessible to everyone
[21:10:33] <Valen> lock wont stop the flash upgrade
[21:10:37] <Casper> sure, it's bypassable if they crack the chip open, but most do not have that capacity
[21:10:52] <Valen> you just need to issue an erase before you can write as far as i'm aware
[21:11:07] <Valen> duh
[21:11:10] * Valen catches up
[21:11:21] <inflex> cool, might do that then
[21:11:35] <Valen> whats the difference between x5r and x7r in terms of capacitors?
[21:13:11] <Tom_itx> http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Capacitor_Codes
[21:13:18] <Tom_itx> temperature
[21:13:55] <Valen> I C
[21:16:11] <Valen> decoupling a fet driver, 1.8A suggestions?
[21:16:28] <Valen> i'm thinking 2 caps might be better than 1 ;->
[21:16:36] <inflex> X5R is better afair
[21:16:48] <inflex> NPO is nicest of course :D
[21:17:02] <Valen> acording to that table Tom_itx posted x7r is higher temp?
[21:18:10] <Valen> for decoupling it doesn't really matter wrt temperature ;->
[21:18:18] <Valen> temp vs change in capacatance
[21:18:57] <inflex> yeah, though even for decoupling I'd stay clear from Y5
[21:19:09] <inflex> the -20/+80% is just too wild
[21:19:16] <Valen> this whole thing is going to get pretty toasty, x7r i'm using
[21:19:36] <Valen> is that the tolerence over temperature or just manufacturing?
[21:26:32] <Valen> i'm thinking of putting a double poll double throw switch (big missile switch style) in my phone line so next time theres a storm i can "detach" it easily
[21:26:43] <Valen> won't stop a lightning strike but then nothing will
[21:27:02] <Valen> i keep getting modems blown up
[21:28:37] <Casper> Valen: is it a dry loop? or wet?
[21:29:50] <Casper> I wonder... what about putting 2 neon bulbs in series right in your modem plug?
[21:29:58] <Casper> ain't they 56V?
[21:30:19] <Casper> 2 of 'em would be 112V, which is more than the ring voltage, but low enought to avoid damage?
[21:30:53] <Casper> also, 2 more from each line to house ground
[21:31:06] <Casper> should make a good surge protector
[21:31:13] <Casper> atleast I think
[21:31:45] <Valen> I have a "good" surge protector on the line already
[21:32:27] <Casper> do you have a good ground where that bar is?
[21:33:11] <Valen> bar?
[21:35:08] <Casper> the surge protector
[21:35:17] <Casper> it's not a power bar?
[21:35:41] <Valen> never heard it called that before
[21:36:10] <Casper> power bar... as in 6 plugs thingy
[21:36:11] <Valen> http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/image_cache/httpwww.tedkyte.com3DPicturesPowerBar.jpg kind of thing?
[21:36:13] <Valen> yeah
[21:36:23] <Valen> normal house ground i spose
[21:37:17] <Casper> there is 2/3 things that can happend: tip-ring goes too high, tip-house ground or ring-house goes too high/low
[21:37:38] <Casper> if the surge protector do not work with the house ground, then you are protected against 1 on 3 case
[21:37:40] <Casper> also
[21:37:48] <Casper> they might be already burned out
[21:37:55] <Casper> or you have a too sensitive equipment
[21:37:56] <Valen> we dont have rings in australia
[21:38:28] <Casper> I bet you do, just never called it that way
[21:38:30] <Valen> i figure lightning is nasty crap
[21:38:32] <Casper> and anyway
[21:38:38] <Valen> we do not have ring mains
[21:38:48] <Casper> ring and tip is phone term
[21:38:49] <Valen> pretty sure its illegal
[21:39:00] <Valen> ok then
[21:39:11] <Casper> it come from the old time where they were using TRS plugs at the CO
[21:39:15] <Valen> i figure lightning is nasty crap and hard to protect against
[21:39:19] <Casper> you know, a real operator
[21:39:37] <Valen> nice big physical switch is going to moot pretty much all the electronics you can throw at it
[21:39:57] <Valen> untill theres enough energy in the thing that it'll blow anything attached to it up anyway ;->
[21:40:52] <Casper> you might also want to check the tip and ring voltage compared to your house ground
[21:41:00] <Valen> i reckon alot of the issue is rise time, the voltage is at high/damaging levels before any of the protection stuff kicks in
[21:41:05] <Casper> who knows, maybe the CO also have issues
[21:41:16] <Valen> we are a rather long way from the exchange, (6km or so)
[21:41:29] <Casper> this is where neon bulb excel at: they are extremelly fast
[21:41:31] <Valen> so differential under a thunderstorm could get large i spose
[21:41:46] <Valen> i presume the surge protector has that kind of stuff in it already
[21:41:57] <Casper> no
[21:42:00] <Casper> it have MOV
[21:42:03] <Casper> they are slow
[21:42:24] <Valen> if they have a $10,000 connected equipment warranty wouldn't they put the good stuff in?
[21:42:50] <Casper> yes, but no
[21:43:33] <Casper> thing is: chance is that you are not wired up to the code
[21:43:58] <Casper> and the code probably say that it must have a surge protection before it get in the house
[21:44:06] <Casper> you said there is no such thing where you are
[21:44:10] <Valen> not in australia no
[21:44:10] <Casper> so the waranty is void
[21:44:31] <Valen> well its sold in australia and that is not part of the code here
[21:45:45] <Casper> abcminiuser: since you're in australia, do you know if there should be a lightning arrestor on phone lines like in canada and usa? here it's a small grey box located usually outside, separating the outside and inside wiring, which have the house ground going to it too
[21:46:14] <abcminiuser> Wouldn't think so
[21:46:25] <abcminiuser> We all have (supposedly) GFI's
[21:46:31] <abcminiuser> But I doubt we have lighting arrestors
[21:46:36] <Valen> they are talking about phone lines
[21:46:41] <abcminiuser> Oh, right
[21:46:55] <abcminiuser> Hrm, our phone wiring is underground, so I can't check
[21:47:08] <Valen> bet you a $ you dont ;->
[21:47:09] <abcminiuser> No idea where it even terminates in the house, we stumped the Telstra guy with it
[21:47:13] <Casper> http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u112496/nid_or_demarc_before2.jpg <==== that's like our
[21:47:24] <Casper> well, almost like our
[21:47:26] <Valen> we don't have those
[21:47:32] <Casper> this one don't have ground...
[21:47:35] <Valen> no house i have ever seen has one
[21:47:37] <Valen> ever
[21:47:55] <Tom_itx> i've replaced a couple
[21:48:04] <Tom_itx> got noisy from hits
[21:48:12] <Valen> i can see 4 phone lines going into peoples houses from where i'm sitting
[21:48:15] <Valen> and nobody has any
[21:48:22] <Valen> ok
[21:48:24] <Valen> they arent there
[21:48:27] <Valen> its not done here
[21:48:36] <Valen> it really isn't done
[21:48:38] <Tom_itx> we didn't used to have them
[21:48:44] <Casper> thing is
[21:48:46] <Tom_itx> well not the new type anyway
[21:49:21] <Casper> some telco never installed stuff the right way, violating laws and regulation. but since it's been done so long ago, they never fixed it up
[21:49:43] <Casper> so I wouln't be surprised if it is the case
[21:49:44] <Tom_itx> i had to replace 3 phones in a line one time, they progressively got worse the closer they were to the outside
[21:49:56] <Valen> our telecom company was government owned until recently, they set the code
[21:50:17] <Casper> which is worrysome
[21:50:23] <Casper> but anyway
[21:50:40] <Casper> if I were you, I'ld make my own surge supressor
[21:50:40] <Valen> dude, really seriously, we don't have them
[21:50:58] <Casper> Valen: is it an old install or brand new install?
[21:51:03] <Valen> the phones etc are all sposed to be isolated/floating anyway
[21:51:16] <Valen> i have seen houses made in the past year and they dont have them either
[21:51:19] <Valen> its just not done
[21:52:05] <Casper> ok, but then, check the voltages. one wire should be close to 0V in respect to house ground, the other should be somewhere between -70 and -30V or so
[21:52:17] <Casper> if you have way more than that, don't ask question, you found the problem
[21:52:30] <Valen> all our phones are sposed to be isolated from the line anyway, so even up to a hundred volts of common mode is in theory not a problem
[21:52:45] <Valen> as the isolation transformer is meant to take care of it
[21:53:03] <Casper> the isolation transformer is not made for that much voltage
[21:54:33] <Valen> abcminiuser: can you imagine what would happen if i rang telstra and told them their common mode voltage was 100V
[21:54:47] <Valen> a) i'd be speaking to an indian with nfi what a multimeter was
[21:54:56] <abcminiuser> Damn, I was just about to say that
[21:55:11] <Valen> b) i'd probably be arrested for touching a phone line without an ACMA licence
[21:55:32] <Valen> you know you need an acma licence to run speaker wires now
[21:55:48] <Casper> o.O
[21:55:56] * Casper will never move to australia
[21:57:21] <Valen> HAH!
[21:57:28] <Valen> looking at lightning codes
[21:57:29] <Valen> found this
[21:57:35] <Valen> "Handrails may be used as a substitute for down conductors"
[21:58:58] <Valen> thats the american code btw
[22:07:55] <Tom_itx> it's for our unwelcome visitors. we don't use them
[22:15:54] <Casper> there is lots of code and exception
[22:16:13] <Casper> sometime it's better to do something not ideal than nothing at all
[22:16:47] <Casper> and guys, do you have an idea how to remove paint from an inside concrete so I can repaint after? it's epoxy paint
[22:17:34] <Casper> I'm worried that stripper won't clean up easilly
[22:19:48] <Tom_itx> they use acid to clean it
[22:20:13] <Tom_itx> as a prep before epoxy
[22:20:19] <Tom_itx> i dunno what will cut the epoxy
[22:20:23] <Tom_itx> you could try that
[22:20:36] <Tom_itx> muratic i think is what they use
[22:20:52] <Casper> the first paint that they applied wasn't epoxy and is mostly lift
[22:21:14] <Casper> ain'T muratic acid... HCl?
[22:29:06] <Tom_itx> i'm not a chemist
[22:29:24] <Tom_itx> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html
[22:41:32] <loki__> Tom_itx: where's the driver for the usbtiny mkII?
[22:46:18] <Casper> loki__: usb driver?
[22:49:12] <loki__> yeah
[22:50:26] <Casper> none, it bitbang the usb, so out of specs
[22:51:09] <Casper> atleast I think, if I'm not confusing that one for another one...
[22:51:14] <loki__> eh? no, Tom's programmer
[22:51:36] <Casper> ya avr direct...
