Jun 11 2021
01:08 AM Deejay: moin
01:32 AM randy: morning
04:06 AM Tom_L: morning
04:18 AM Tom_L: partly cloudy, Hi 91F
04:18 AM XXCoder: gonna love centeral areas. hot so fast
04:18 AM XXCoder: heres still 60s in most case, though in couple weeks maybe ot will get hot
04:48 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:16 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:00 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:16 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:58 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:06 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:09 AM JT-Cave: wow OSB subfloor is up to $102 a sheet
07:12 AM JT-Cave: 3/4 plywood has that beat it's $140 a sheet
07:17 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:18 AM Tom_L: won't be shopping for that any time soon
07:24 AM JT-Cave: me neither
07:25 AM Tom_L: https://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Ground-Contact-Pressure-Treated-Pine-Performance-Rated-Sheathing-106128/206971071
07:27 AM JT-Cave: https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities/lbs
07:28 AM Tom_L: heh
07:30 AM cloudevil_: Damn near the cost of just replacing it with stainless steel.
07:30 AM cloudevil_: (not actually)
07:31 AM _methods: metal has gone up just as much
07:35 AM cloudevil_: :/
07:35 AM * JT-Cave resists buying anything that is priced too high
08:12 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:05 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:16 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:27 AM JT-Shop: I think I know what's wrong, original servo with 48vdc on the armature has 8.5vdc on the tacho and new servo has 9.0vdc...
09:37 AM CaptHindsight[m]: was at Menards last night, metal prices are the same there as they were last year
09:41 AM Roguish: why would they be any different...??? what goes up, doesn't necessarily have to go down.
09:45 AM CaptHindsight[m]: they usually charge 2-3X what you pay at just about any metal supplier
09:46 AM CaptHindsight[m]: now it's about equal
09:48 AM CaptHindsight[m]: Roguish: according to many on IRC, nobody is to charge more than 20% for anything they resell or manufacture
09:49 AM CaptHindsight[m]: >20% is immoral for a profit margin
09:49 AM CaptHindsight[m]: over 20%
09:58 AM JT-Shop: would a voltage divider work both directions to drop my tacho voltage down?
10:02 AM CaptHindsight[m]: not sure what you mean by "both directions"
10:04 AM cloudevil_: Finding negative resitors to increase voltage is annoying.
10:05 AM CaptHindsight[m]: I'd say finding is enjoyable, searching for is anoying
10:06 AM JT-Shop: the tacho puts out + on one pin in the + direction and - on the same pin when going the other way
10:09 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/dccircuits/voltage-divider.html
10:24 AM JT-Shop: that answers that question
10:33 AM * JT-Shop just found another work table that needs cleaning off
11:15 AM Vq: cloudevil_: op-amp?
11:15 AM cloudevil_: Vq: yes, my comment was not a serious one.
12:19 PM JT-Shop: hmm the voltage divider calculators don't give me the right voltage drop
12:47 PM JT-Shop: I wonder if my resistor is too small...
12:54 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, a voltage divider would likely work but you need the right values of resistors so the change is linear like you need
12:55 PM Tom_L: one leg may be 100 ohm or it could be 1k depending on the choice for the other resistor
12:55 PM Tom_L: but the result would be different
01:02 PM JT-Shop: how would you get a linear drop?
01:04 PM Tom_L: thinking
01:05 PM Tom_L: do you know what the total voltage swing is?
01:07 PM Tom_L: i wonder if a diode drop would work
01:07 PM Tom_L: there's ~.6 drop depending on the part
01:07 PM Tom_L: i dunno if it would work
01:07 PM JT-Shop: 23v
01:08 PM Tom_L: if it did, you would need 2, one to block one direction and the 2nd one reversed so when it went negative the other one would pass the voltage
01:08 PM Tom_L: it's just a thought
01:09 PM Tom_L: but you would get the approximate voltage drop over the silicon junction
01:09 PM Tom_L: now, somebody tell me why not to do that....
01:10 PM Tom_L: find a diode with a v drop of .5v or close
01:12 PM Tom_L: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1307337-1N4001-and-1N4004-diodes
01:12 PM Tom_L: somewhat depends on the current
01:13 PM Tom_L: but it should be minimal, it's a signal
01:14 PM Tom_L: 1n914 might even work
01:14 PM Tom_L: glass signal diode
01:14 PM Tom_L: 4148 etc
01:16 PM JT-Shop: a 0.5v drop would only be correct at one rpm
01:17 PM Tom_L: resistors would probably vary as much or more across the full range
01:18 PM Tom_L: we don't know if it's constantly .5v less or not
01:18 PM Tom_L: there's not a pot on the amp to adjust for the feedback input?
01:23 PM JT-Shop: the original servo tacho is 9.5v/1krpm the new one is 9.56v/1krpm
01:23 PM * JT-Shop wanders out to the other shop to grab a 24v power supply
01:28 PM JT-Shop: there is a tach pot but if it's not set to 10k ohms across the test pins the drive will fault out
01:29 PM Tom_L: i wonder why they would change the voltage
01:30 PM Tom_L: surely the new servo doesn't require a new amp. i would think the old one could be adjusted for it
01:32 PM JT-Shop: just tested both with 24v and orig is 3.6v and new is 3.7v
01:34 PM Tom_L: put a 100 ohm resistor in series with the output on the new one and see what voltage it give you @24v supply
01:34 PM Tom_L: or even less if you have one
01:35 PM Tom_L: mmm it would likely be the same with no load
01:35 PM Vq_ is now known as Vq
01:46 PM JT-Shop: WTF!!! the new servo just started working
01:47 PM JT-Shop: now I gotta find my servo tuning tutorial
01:47 PM Tom_L: wtf did you do!!
01:47 PM Tom_L: broken wire somewhere?
01:47 PM JT-Shop: just putzing around on the bench testing
01:50 PM JT-Shop: IIRC pcw always says FF1 = 1 I think
01:51 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man9/pid.9.html
01:52 PM Tom_L: for velocity loops 2 & 3 are usually 0
01:52 PM JT-Shop: yep
01:52 PM Tom_L: i fiddled with those on my spindle
01:53 PM Tom_L: 0 & 1
01:54 PM Tom_L: both of those on mine are 1
02:08 PM JT-Shop: found a conversation on the forum between fungus and pcw explaining FF1 = 1
02:28 PM JT-Shop: I should put static ip's on all the machines...
02:44 PM JT-Shop: weird the servo has 14 teeth and the ballscrew pulley has 21
03:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 1.5:1 ratio
03:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 2/3
03:13 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
03:26 PM JT-Shop: I was going nuts because the ini had an entry for SCALE = 8000 and my encoder scale per inch is 30000
03:33 PM andypugh: I have been waiting all week for a couple of 5C collets. I realised this evening that they were still in the basket on the vendor’s web site.
03:34 PM JT-Shop: opps
03:35 PM andypugh: I need a 3mm to make the pins for: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pwCf6oSMJCrE15AT8
03:35 PM andypugh: 5C is the only way I know to hold very _short_ 3mm parts.
03:38 PM JT-Shop: I'm trying to rework my BP configuration and have FF1 = 1
03:38 PM JT-Shop: custom lock?
03:38 PM andypugh: “unpickable” lock
03:39 PM andypugh: (Actually might be)
03:39 PM JT-Shop: hmm didn't know they had any locks that couldn't be picked
03:39 PM andypugh: Not until I invented this one :-)
03:40 PM andypugh: It probably isn’t unpickable, but I can’t think of a way to pick it.
03:44 PM robotustra: sladge hammer?
03:47 PM andypugh: I am not saying that it is secure. I see lock picking as an intellectual exercise, it’s an inefficient way to run a criminal career.
03:53 PM JT-Shop: lol
04:00 PM JT-Shop: well setting up analogout0-scalemax, analogout0-minlim and analogout0-maxlim to maximum velocity per second seems to work
04:00 PM JT-Shop: I need to take notes!
04:00 PM Tom_L: seems like you're on the road again
04:01 PM JT-Shop: yeah, I think it't time to put the servos back on in a few minutes
04:01 PM Tom_L: yeah i made a pdf and put it on my website so i wouldn't lose it
04:01 PM andypugh: Is this with a new tach?
04:01 PM Tom_L: yes
04:01 PM Tom_L: new servo/tach
04:01 PM JT-Shop: whole new servo
04:02 PM JT-Shop: I guess because it had been sitting for unknown number of years I just needed to run it on the bench for a while to get the cobwebs out of the brushes dunno
04:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ctemag.com/news/industry-news/camshaft-grinding-advanced-technological-innovation-through-collaboration
04:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.stresstech.com/knowledge/non-destructive-testing-methods/barkhausen-noise-analysis/
04:11 PM Spida_ is now known as Spida
04:11 PM andypugh: I used to know something about Barkhausen Noise. Now all I remember is the name.
04:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v6pwZRjlrQ
04:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkhausen_effect
04:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLycGnOCqLc
04:15 PM Tom_L: you gonna start grinding cams?
04:17 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, still odd the voltage on the new one would be higher than the old one
04:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nope would get bored pretty quickly, just build the grinder
04:19 PM Tom_L: i did grind the journal on an old vehicle once (in vehicle)
04:19 PM Tom_L: babbitt bearings
04:20 PM Tom_L: i think the grinder was a sunnen
04:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Modern camshafts are "assembled" from powdered metal cam profiles, fixtured on a steel tube, and then a ball is drawn thru the ID of the tube, expanding the metal and locking all the profiles in their respective orientations. The best materials can be then used for the oil pump gear, the bearing journals, and the cam profiles.
04:25 PM andypugh: Tom_L: My dad, on his honeymoon, re-ground the big end of his car using just a file and a bent nail as a caliper.
04:26 PM andypugh: (I guess I was technically there, but not in a position to corroborate the story)
04:28 PM Tom_L: this thing, you jacked up the rear wheel and used a motor to turn the crank as it ground the journal
04:28 PM Tom_L: google it, i'm sure you can find the apparatus made by sunnen
04:29 PM Tom_L: :)
04:29 PM andypugh: My dad was an engineeeing fitter at the time. Making bearings fit journals was his bread and butter.
04:30 PM Tom_L: seems the traits were passed down
04:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: my dad was a draftsmen in the days well before CAD
04:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: got hired by the US Army at the end of WWII while in Europe since he made the most accurate copy of a drawing using only pencil, paper and a straight edge
04:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: used his shoe laces to draw arcs and circles
04:44 PM perry_j1987: o/
04:44 PM JT-Shop: yeah that weird that both are the same part number but slightly different tacho voltages
04:45 PM perry_j1987: just found out the channel moved lol
04:46 PM JT-Shop: after ww2 my dad saw an ad for the FAA, he called them up and one of the requirements was to type 20 words a minute or something like that. On the train from NC OK with a used typewriter in his lap he taught himself how to type
05:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and that was when a typewriter weighed 50 lbs
05:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: perry_j1987: they do it from time to time to keep the pizza delivery guy from getting too complacent
05:14 PM Tom_L: speaking of... where is he?
05:16 PM JT-Shop: got the axes to home...
05:16 PM JT-Shop: yeah prob an underwood
05:16 PM Tom_L: yay
05:17 PM Tom_L: steps where they belong still?
05:26 PM JT-Shop: steps?
05:26 PM * JT-Shop connects a normal monitor, keyboard and mouse to the bp
05:27 PM Tom_L: is the scale still ok on it?
05:27 PM * Tom_L thinks in stepper terms :)
05:27 PM JT-Shop: yes, scale is off the encoder only
05:35 PM JT-Shop: something is screwy with Z
05:41 PM Tom_L: ru ro
05:42 PM XXCoder: good morning the sequel
06:03 PM JT-Shop: lol my monitor keeps going black...
06:05 PM JT-Shop: wow z didn't like output scale, min and max settings
06:05 PM Tom_L: so what did you do to Z?
06:06 PM XXCoder: safety squints time https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/749283134893457459/853040647505444904/E3npZsTWEAEy-57.png?width=512&height=664
06:07 PM JT-Shop: # ---PWM Generator signals/setup---
06:07 PM JT-Shop: #setp hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout2-scalemax [JOINT_2]OUTPUT_SCALE
06:07 PM JT-Shop: #setp hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout2-minlim [JOINT_2]OUTPUT_MIN_LIMIT
06:07 PM JT-Shop: #setp hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout2-maxlim [JOINT_2]OUTPUT_MAX_LIMIT
06:15 PM JT-Shop: time to call it a day
06:18 PM perry_j1987: XXCoder thats for when you cant be bothered to generate some G-Code and it'd just be quicker to "freehand it"
06:19 PM XXCoder: lol
06:19 PM XXCoder: id like to see someone make some precision part with that
06:34 PM _unreal_: XXCoder, ?
06:34 PM Tom_L: XXCoder, if it fits it must have been made to use that way
06:34 PM XXCoder: ah of course
06:34 PM XXCoder: its not like there is standards or anything like that lol
06:35 PM XXCoder: *standardizations
06:35 PM _unreal_: I wonder how the balance is
06:35 PM _unreal_: though from that photo I would suggest a handle
06:35 PM _unreal_: maybe the slightly extended one
06:35 PM Tom_L: better grip when it's ripping thru your leg?
06:35 PM _unreal_: thenagain I may be over thinking things agin
06:35 PM _unreal_: again
06:36 PM _unreal_: SIGH... i NEED TO replace this eyboard
06:36 PM XXCoder: indeed
06:36 PM _unreal_: space bar and home keys are wearings
06:36 PM _unreal_: AGAIN
06:36 PM Tom_L: i got 2 that way and can't decide which one is worse
06:36 PM _unreal_: best keyboard I ever had was one of those CLICK IBM keyboards
06:36 PM Tom_L: i got 2 northgate
06:37 PM Tom_L: same buttons
06:37 PM Tom_L: same weight
06:37 PM _unreal_: remember the 80s/90s IBM keyboards
06:37 PM _unreal_: that aggressive CLICKy keyboard
06:38 PM _unreal_: standard beige color IBM keyobards?
06:38 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Omnikey_key/alps3.jpg
06:38 PM Tom_L: i fixed one of em
06:38 PM _unreal_: heh
06:39 PM _unreal_: I dont know what is worse. wearing out a keyboard or a touch pad
06:39 PM Tom_L: i got extra keytops for the 'home' buttons and those are wore smooth now too
06:39 PM _unreal_: just finished printing my coupler for my hoses
06:40 PM XXCoder: looks like connector broke apart>
06:40 PM _unreal_: I belive I've only had one keyboard I ever wore off the printed/stamped letters
06:41 PM Tom_L: i've gone thru several
06:41 PM _unreal_: so tonight is a tequila night how about you fellas?
06:42 PM XXCoder: can you upgrade to connector that is over-rated for this use, but wont break ever?
06:43 PM Tom_L: for what?
06:43 PM _unreal_: ?
06:43 PM _unreal_: heh
06:43 PM _unreal_: do anyof you have 3d printers?
06:43 PM Tom_L: i spilt juice on one of them and i'm still cleaning switches
06:44 PM _unreal_: heh I hate it when I spilt shit to
06:44 PM _unreal_: hehe :)
06:44 PM Tom_L: at least it missed my newest one
06:44 PM XXCoder: lol time to get waterproof covers :)
06:44 PM Tom_L: logitech MX keys
06:44 PM _unreal_: right here
06:44 PM _unreal_: https://www.etsy.com/listing/659281989/vintage-fujitsu-keyboard-fkb4700?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_a-electronics_and_accessories-computers_and_peripherals-keyboards_and_mice-keyboards&utm_custom1=_k_Cj0KCQjwk4yGBhDQARIsACGfAeu5l0Tr4-tjUw7wbjEtRclNHUeTsLZWl50ibFACeAhxZPvn2gjvCAkaAl2PEALw_wcB_k_&utm_content=go_12573079807_124822095292_507896635865_pla-315470422934_c__659281989_13675
06:44 PM _unreal_: 1217&utm_custom2=12573079807&gclid=Cj0KCQjwk4yGBhDQARIsACGfAeu5l0Tr4-tjUw7wbjEtRclNHUeTsLZWl50ibFACeAhxZPvn2gjvCAkaAl2PEALw_wcB
06:44 PM _unreal_: fuck
06:45 PM Tom_L: kinda like it so far
06:45 PM XXCoder: my keyboard here is apple alum board keyboard. only apple product i own
06:45 PM _unreal_: https://i.etsystatic.com/11312350/r/il/4d61fe/1734098905/il_1140xN.1734098905_rtll.jpg
06:45 PM XXCoder: 14 years old
06:45 PM _unreal_: click that link
06:45 PM XXCoder: letters finally starting to fade
06:45 PM _unreal_: IT SAYS FUJITSU BUT ITS AN ibm
06:45 PM Tom_L: mine looks about like that
06:46 PM Tom_L: maybe i'll desolder some switches and clean them good
06:46 PM _unreal_: https://clickykeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/DSC02176.jpg
06:46 PM XXCoder: i have another one, with broken buttons. i can use buttons from that to fix fade, or just swap circuit board (i guess someone spilled orange juice on it or something as 5 buttons dont work)
06:46 PM _unreal_: i loved those keybaords
06:46 PM _unreal_: I got my best typing times with those
06:46 PM XXCoder: isnt you can order mx buttons?
06:47 PM _unreal_: my best was 140 words/min ish
06:47 PM XXCoder: be back in buit
06:47 PM _unreal_: it was funny because I was a "jock" in school but I knew computers
06:47 PM _unreal_: in the 80's90's
06:48 PM Tom_L: https://deskthority.net/wiki/images/thumb/a/a5/Northgate_OmniKey_101-top_view.jpg/800px-Northgate_OmniKey_101-top_view.jpg
06:49 PM Tom_L: XXCoder, just desolder them and clean em
06:50 PM Tom_L: those things probably weigh 5lbs
07:10 PM Rab_ is now known as Rab
07:17 PM XXCoder: Tom_L: man i miss those
07:20 PM Tom_L: 4 desoldered
07:55 PM XXCoder: OUCH! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/576079120300113950/853055710295228436/yugfptqbqn471.mp4
07:56 PM andypugh: That could have gone better.
07:58 PM XXCoder: yeah
08:01 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Omnikey_key/alps3.jpg
08:01 PM Tom_L: inside an alps keyswitch
08:30 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
09:18 PM Bleepshop: XXCoder: I wonder what that 'peaceful' idiot was 'protesting' ? xD
09:19 PM XXCoder: protesting what?
09:20 PM XXCoder: also, "peaceful" i dont know where you get that from
09:20 PM Bleepshop: XXCoder: The twit in the truck. That's been the excuse for that type of shit for the last year. LOL
09:21 PM XXCoder: i agree that they are, or maybe was, morons
09:21 PM XXCoder: but i dont know where you got 2 additional discriptors from
09:22 PM Bleepshop: Something infrastructure related is on fire... Relax it's just another peaceful protest... xD
09:24 PM * Bleepshop is in a mood...
09:34 PM XXCoder: howa goes things roycroft
09:34 PM XXCoder: i wanted to debate some more, but i changed password for libera, then restarted hexchat to save it. unfortunately it made me unable to login into freenode, and i wasnt interested on changing password there again lol
09:38 PM roycroft: they go well
09:38 PM roycroft: i've decided to give libera another go
09:39 PM XXCoder: it should be mostly stabilized now
09:41 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:56 PM Tom_itx: if you behave we might let you stay!
09:56 PM Tom_itx: :)
10:15 PM roycroft: i cannot promise that
10:25 PM Tom_itx: ok finally got the omnikey working like a new one
10:25 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
10:27 PM Tom_L: desoldered several switches and took them apart, cleaned in the ultrasonic cleaner and put back. had a couple with weak springs so i took them back off and tweaked the spring slightly
10:28 PM Tom_L: works like a champ
10:28 PM XXCoder: awesome!
10:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Omnikey_key/alps3.jpg
10:28 PM Tom_L: the little 2 prong on the upper left
10:29 PM Tom_L: the switch is actually just that wafer and the dimple in the spring pushes it together
10:29 PM Tom_L: the other spring is just to counterbalance the blue plunger so it stays centered
10:30 PM Tom_L: it will outlast any membrane keyboard for sure
10:30 PM XXCoder: you'd be surpised
10:31 PM Tom_L: naw
10:31 PM XXCoder: my apple keyboard is essentally membrane type. its over decade of rather heavy use
10:31 PM Tom_L: i've programmed thousands of lines of code with it and use it daily for things
10:32 PM XXCoder: i probably reached million lines of non-programming lines with it? lol
10:32 PM Tom_L: had i not spilled juice on it, it would have been fine
10:32 PM Tom_L: but i cleaned it all up while i had it apart
10:33 PM Tom_L: btw, those buttons go together ONE way only :)
10:35 PM smandyscom11 is now known as smandyscom
10:36 PM Tom_L: there's a plastic slide broke on the space bar on the spare kbd otherwise it would be in great shape too
10:36 PM XXCoder: well mx is common if i remember right
10:36 PM Tom_L: the space bar doesn't depress parallel because of it
10:36 PM XXCoder: so you could just replace em
10:36 PM Tom_L: i doubt i could find the part
10:36 PM Tom_L: maybe... i dunno
10:37 PM roycroft: just 3d print it
10:37 PM roycroft: isn't that what everyone does these days?
10:39 PM Tom_L: i'll machine one from brass
10:39 PM XXCoder: 3d print then do lost pla cast
10:40 PM XXCoder: or sand cast after you fill it in, sand then paint with couple layers of high gloss paint
10:40 PM roycroft: or get a chunk of oak and whittle it
10:40 PM XXCoder: or get a chunk of alum and whittle it
10:45 PM Tom_L: wow, they sell for $300+ on ebay
10:46 PM XXCoder: whole keyboards? likely
10:46 PM XXCoder: MX switches is still being made though
10:46 PM XXCoder: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=43
10:46 PM Tom_L: not all are that much but some are
10:46 PM XXCoder: cherry MX
10:46 PM Tom_L: i don't need the switch
10:46 PM XXCoder: 10 for 10
10:47 PM XXCoder: yeah though its good to know that you can keep yours running for long time
10:48 PM Tom_L: i think at the time you could order colored keycaps for wordperfect
10:49 PM XXCoder: evenually i want to change mine to more rised keyboard but im so used to my keyboard lol so used i can type while looking at secondary screen like i am right now.
10:50 PM XXCoder: no im not touch typist
10:50 PM Tom_L: i got 3 completely different ones sitting in front of me
11:19 PM XXCoder: interesting
11:19 PM XXCoder: https://monotech.fwscart.com/NuXT_v20_-_MicroATX_Turbo_XT_-_10MHz_832K_XT-IDE_Multi-IO_SVGA/p6083514_19777986.aspx
11:20 PM XXCoder: its for swapping out hardware but keeping specs kinda
11:20 PM XXCoder: and ISA slots
11:23 PM Tom_L: and $$$
11:24 PM XXCoder: yeah low demend